Carbon Ceramic rotors vs steel ones

[V10LEE]

I thought I post this here. I know it's not Viper related,but my friend Mike made a good technical thread regarding carbon ceramic brakes vs steel ones. Good information that applies to any sports car.Mike is a hardcore track rat,and runs Thunderhill a lot. His most recent lap time is a 1:53..


http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z06-discussion/3377525-ceramic-to-rb-steel-rotors-conversion.html

[ViperGuy]

Interesting read. Thanks for sharing.

[slitherv10]

I thought I post this here. I know it's not Viper related,but my friend Mike made a good technical thread regarding carbon ceramic brakes vs steel ones. Good information that applies to any sports car.Mike is a hardcore track rat,and runs Thunderhill a lot. His most recent lap time is a 1:53..


http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z06-discussion/3377525-ceramic-to-rb-steel-rotors-conversion.html

What a great write up. Lots of details. Has me thinking its time to change my brakes.

[VENOM V]

Very interesting Lee, good post. I'm looking forward to talking with the school director at Spring Mountain again about this. He was very complimentary of the carbon ceramic brakes on the ZR1s. They run steel brakes on the Z06s and Grand Sports, so they have a good A-B comparo. He preferred the CCBs.

I'm going to be running Racing Brake rotors on the Camaro when the stockers wear out. Lots of good success with Camaro track rats. Good to see another endorsement of RB.

[Redsled]

Nice write up. I've raced against your buddy in his GT3 Cup Car. He's come a long way since he started.

[Will at RSI]

I read through that review and I am going to post a reply here for the Viper guys.

We’ll start with the Ceramic Discs.

The Brembo CCM discs that are the OEM option for the Ferrari and Corvette are Not designed for hard track use. Period. The ceramic disc will last a lot longer than an iron rotor during street driving, but the excessive temperatures generated on the track will cause a significant decrease in the life of the ceramic disc. The Porsche PCCB discs are a completely different disc that is not made by Brembo. In both cases the ceramic discs require special pads and to date I only know of a the Pagid Yellow race pad for the Porsche PCCB and nothing for the CCM discs on the Corvette.

Brembo’s new CCM-R Discs are designed for track use and will still function great on the street. The Brembo High Performance Aftermarket CCM-R Disc has twice the performance of the CCM discs on the Corvette or Ferrari and 4 times the life. The CCM disc will last ~1000 Track Miles or 100,000 street miles and the CCM-R Discs will last 4000 Track Miles or 400,000 street miles, which is longer than iron rotors also.

The price point is still high for the carbon ceramic discs and it will be a couple of years before CCM-R Discs are significantly less expensive than today. So some of his conclusions are valid.

Looking at the RB Rotor, it might seem like a good idea to allow air flow into the rotor from both sides, but what happens when you running cooling ducts providing higher air pressure to the inside? Your cooling air is going to blow by the rotor doing Nothing. You don’t have cooling ducts, the air pressure is still different on either side of the rotor, developing blow by and not cooling your brakes. Then there is the fancy mounting system from both sides of the rotor, but what happens to metal when it gets hot, it expands. What happens when those cute mounting fingers heat up and expand (get longer), from opposite directions? More stress on the Bell. Lastly, were they trying to hide that this is a cross drilled rotor? The general recommendation is cross drilled rotors for the street (better cooling, instant pad to rotor contact as water, dirt & debris is squeegeed out through the holes & vents and friendlier to pads than slots) and slotted rotors for the track (knife edge of the slot scraps glazed pad material off for clean pad to rotor contact and the initial bite & pad release are improved) because the cross drilled holes will cool the surface of a hot race rotor too quickly for potential crack propagation issues.

And to wrap this up! Some eye candy. Here is the first set of Brembo CCM-R brakes for the Dodge Viper. These were completed and installed days before SEMA on one of the RSI Racing Solutions Twin Turbo Gen 5 Cars.

http://distilleryimage4.ak.instagram.com/b9749ed84cc911e3a801121e0f202bd6_7.jpg

[VENOM V]

Thanks Will. What is the price of those bad boys?

Also, I hear you on your concerns on the RB rotors. However, some of the most hardcore track rats in my Camaro group run them regularly on the track and have excellent results and longevity, and claim they run cooler. Have you heard of issues with the RB in use? Good timing for this discussion, as I will be upgrading the brakes on the Camaro next season.

[Will at RSI]

The Kit is the picture is the Brembo Stage 4 CCM-R Discs with Monobloc Calipers. The Front is a 15" Rotor with a 6 Piston Caliper and the Rear is a 14.2" Rotor with a 4 Piston Caliper. The front kit is $16,995.00 and the rear is $15,995.00. There is also a Stage 5 version of this kit that upgrades the Calipers to the Brembo Billet Monobloc with the pricing still waiting to be released.

As for the RB Rotors my feedback is not from direct first hand knowledge, but an engineering based theory on the design. We are going to reach out to RB after thanksgiving and see what they offer for the Viper and possible do some testing ourselves.

[mnc2886]

The Kit is the picture is the Brembo Stage 4 CCM-R Discs with Monobloc Calipers. The Front is a 15" Rotor with a 6 Piston Caliper and the Rear is a 14.2" Rotor with a 4 Piston Caliper. The front kit is $16,995.00 and the rear is $15,995.00. There is also a Stage 5 version of this kit that upgrades the Calipers to the Brembo Billet Monobloc with the pricing still waiting to be released.

As for the RB Rotors my feedback is not from direct first hand knowledge, but an engineering based theory on the design. We are going to reach out to RB after thanksgiving and see what they offer for the Viper and possible do some testing ourselves.

What do they weigh compared to the stock rotors?

[Will at RSI]

The front 15" / 6 piston kit is 3lbs lighter than the OEM 4 piston / 14" Stoptech 2 Piece.

[V10LEE]

The front 15" / 6 piston kit is 3lbs lighter than the OEM 4 piston / 14" Stoptech 2 Piece.

Nice!
I just got these from Jon B for my ACR. 15"/ 6 piston kit. I think these should of been on my ACR from the factory. It's ridiculous that gen 4 and gen 5 cars are still sporting the same old gen 3 brakes..

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/rapid25_2012/photo2_zps7bf8bf26.jpg (http://s753.photobucket.com/user/rapid25_2012/media/photo2_zps7bf8bf26.jpg.html)

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/rapid25_2012/photo_zpsb170e0a9.jpg (http://s753.photobucket.com/user/rapid25_2012/media/photo_zpsb170e0a9.jpg.html)

[ACRucrazy]

Is the hat on the 15" stoptech the same size as the hat on the 14" stoptech?

Here is are some pics I saw a few months ago of another 15" CCB setup on a Viper. So the options are there if people want to spend the $$

https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/q80/s720x720/1375057_512007458892306_2061293779_n.jpg

https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1394309_529094270516958_616302074_n.jpg

[Redsled]

Nice!
I just got these from Jon B for my ACR. 15"/ 6 piston kit. I think these should of been on my ACR from the factory. It's ridiculous that gen 4 and gen 5 cars are still sporting the same old gen 3 brakes..

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/rapid25_2012/photo2_zps7bf8bf26.jpg (http://s753.photobucket.com/user/rapid25_2012/media/photo2_zps7bf8bf26.jpg.html)

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/rapid25_2012/photo_zpsb170e0a9.jpg (http://s753.photobucket.com/user/rapid25_2012/media/photo_zpsb170e0a9.jpg.html)

So what should this kit be able to do for your ACR? Unless you can do a 1:33 at Laguna Seca with the same set up, it would seam that the size of the brake calipers are not the issue. Best of luck.

[V10LEE]

So what should this kit be able to do for your ACR? Unless you can do a 1:33 at Laguna Seca with the same set up, it would seam that the size of the brake calipers are not the issue. Best of luck.

Come on man you complained,and didn't understand why SRT put 10 year old calipers on the Gen V ..
http://forums.viperclub.org/threads/660179-Car-amp-Driver-ZR1-beats-the-Viper...again?p=3138529&viewfull=1#post3138529

But if you want to know. I have these brakes on my Z06,and they cut my lap times 2 seconds.
http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/rapid25_2012/2012-12-05_14-08-20_522.jpg (http://s753.photobucket.com/user/rapid25_2012/media/2012-12-05_14-08-20_522.jpg.html).

I can brake a lot later right before each corner. Doing it with confidence . These brakes also gives me more confidence with the traffic that's in the run group. Getting up on somebody etc . Laguna is hard on brakes,and these 6 piston Stoptechs bite real hard,and are very consistent lap after lap. The ACR brakes don't bite nearly as hard. I even got carbotech XP12 pads front and back. With that being said,what these Stoptechs did to my Z06. It will do to my ACR. I can't wait to try them out.. Shoot Randy Pobst even said that the brakes on the TA could use a little more bite on his record lap run..

[Nine Ball]

Bushido, I can see them cutting 2 secs off of the C6Z06 brakes, because the factory brakes are garbage. My wife was even able to warp the factory C6Z06 rotors after one DE weekend, LOL. And she doesn't drive crazy, either. The Gen 3 Viper brakes are still better than the C6Z06, no doubt.

But, let us know what you find out. will the 15" brakes fit inside an 18" wheel still?

[Will at RSI]

Generally No! There might be some random wheel out there that it does fit, but there are some 19" wheels that won't clear. We always try to verify with the brake and wheel manufacturers the fitment prior to selling either.

[6th-Element]

Nice!
I just got these from Jon B for my ACR. 15"/ 6 piston kit. I think these should of been on my ACR from the factory. It's ridiculous that gen 4 and gen 5 cars are still sporting the same old gen 3 brakes..

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/rapid25_2012/photo2_zps7bf8bf26.jpg (http://s753.photobucket.com/user/rapid25_2012/media/photo2_zps7bf8bf26.jpg.html)

http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx171/rapid25_2012/photo_zpsb170e0a9.jpg (http://s753.photobucket.com/user/rapid25_2012/media/photo_zpsb170e0a9.jpg.html)



I don't know about you guys but I usually start my measuring tape at the 0, not at 1, those look like 14" to me

[Troublemaker]

I don't know about you guys but I usually start my measuring tape at the 0, not at 1, those look like 14" to me

Good call, I had to go back and look, I didn't even notice this:t0135:

[V10LEE]

Bushido, I can see them cutting 2 secs off of the C6Z06 brakes, because the factory brakes are garbage. My wife was even able to warp the factory C6Z06 rotors after one DE weekend, LOL. And she doesn't drive crazy, either. The Gen 3 Viper brakes are still better than the C6Z06, no doubt.

But, let us know what you find out. will the 15" brakes fit inside an 18" wheel still?





Generally No! There might be some random wheel out there that it does fit, but there are some 19" wheels that won't clear. We always try to verify with the brake and wheel manufacturers the fitment prior to selling either.

I thought I might need 1/4inch wheel spacers,but both Jon B,and Dan Cragin said I would be ok..

[V10LEE]

I don't know about you guys but I usually start my measuring tape at the 0, not at 1, those look like 14" to me




Good call, I had to go back and look, I didn't even notice this:t0135:

Ha ha my bad on the tape measure. The rotors are 380mm or 14.9606 inches to be exact..

[gutterworks129]

Is IPSCO making the brackets to hold the calipers?

[Racingbrake]

I read through that review and I am going to post a reply here for the Viper guys.

Looking at the RB Rotor, it might seem like a good idea to allow air flow into the rotor from both sides, but what happens when you running cooling ducts providing higher air pressure to the inside? Your cooling air is going to blow by the rotor doing Nothing.

http://distilleryimage4.ak.instagram.com/b9749ed84cc911e3a801121e0f202bd6_7.jpg

Effective rotor cooling (or heat removal from rotor) is measured by the air flow (the volume of air pumped through the cooling vane) times the temperature difference between air inlet and outlet.

In other words you wish to have more air pumped through the cooling vane like the design of our Convergent Vanes which has been imitated by other known brake mfgrs, and keep the inlet air temperature low. So the prime duty of ducted cooling air is keep the "Inlet Temp" low, but not to force or feed cooling air to/through the rotor.

http://www.racingbrake.com/v/main/technology.asp
http://i1208.photobucket.com/albums/cc379/wlin973/Convergent%20vane_zpsgjnf8h4h.jpg (http://s1208.photobucket.com/user/wlin973/media/Convergent%20vane_zpsgjnf8h4h.jpg.html)


Various communities to prove this result are Mistubishi EVO, Covetter Z06 and Nissan GTR; Owners used to run various kind of cooling kits but still encountered with brake issues, after installing RB two piece rotors with their cooling kits removed - No more brake issues.

Cooling kit installation seems can inspire a driver's confidence, but if it's not ducted properly it can do more harm than good.

[Racingbrake]

I thought I post this here. I know it's not Viper related,but my friend Mike made a good technical thread regarding carbon ceramic brakes vs steel ones. Good information that applies to any sports car.Mike is a hardcore track rat,and runs Thunderhill a lot. His most recent lap time is a 1:53..

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z06-discussion/3377525-ceramic-to-rb-steel-rotors-conversion.html

That's RB two piece rotors replacing ZR1 CCM rotors.
We also offer CCM upgrade (from iron rotors), or for those who are not happy with OE CCM i.e. SGL (Brembo).

[Racingbrake]

Very interesting Lee, good post. I'm looking forward to talking with the school director at Spring Mountain again about this. He was very complimentary of the carbon ceramic brakes on the ZR1s. They run steel brakes on the Z06s and Grand Sports, so they have a good A-B comparo. He preferred the CCBs.

I'm going to be running Racing Brake rotors on the Camaro when the stockers wear out. Lots of good success with Camaro track rats. Good to see another endorsement of RB.

Thank you for considering RB. Yes we were the first company introduced two piece rotors for CamaroSS about 6 years ago, nowadays we have the most complete brake upgrade options for Camaro including ZL1 & Z28.
http://www.racingbrake.com/category-s/7300.htm

In addition to iron rotor kits, we built CCM brake kits with ST rotors and RB calipers.
http://www.racingbrake.com/RB-Calipers-Rotor-Package-w-CCM-X-Disc-for-2010-p/gm-crp-01.htm

[kverges]

$33k buys a lot of iron brake I would think.

[Racingbrake]

The Kit is the picture is the Brembo Stage 4 CCM-R Discs with Monobloc Calipers. The Front is a 15" Rotor with a 6 Piston Caliper and the Rear is a 14.2" Rotor with a 4 Piston Caliper. The front kit is $16,995.00 and the rear is $15,995.00. There is also a Stage 5 version of this kit that upgrades the Calipers to the Brembo Billet Monobloc with the pricing still waiting to be released.

As for the RB Rotors my feedback is not from direct first hand knowledge, but an engineering based theory on the design. We are going to reach out to RB after thanksgiving and see what they offer for the Viper and possible do some testing ourselves.

Will,

I saw some discussions on CCM brake in this thread, but I don't seem to recall of such a contact in regard to CCM brake development for Viper. Two years later ACR Extreme has CCM as stock, so your vision was pretty good.

Honestly CCM brake has its merit primarily for its thermal stability at extreme temperature which is not something of a cast iron rotor can replace and is more advantageous for track racing, provided the proper pad is used and braking temperature is kept under threshold (below 700C). It's now even an optional item for BMW M3/M4 (F80) and MB C63S both from 2014/2015 so obviously it's getting more popular.

There are two proven CCM rotors; OE Brembo (SGL) and Surface Transforms from UK, and we are very familiar with both sources and can design and build them into most car/model applications, including our latest CCM project for Lexus RC F.

But in reality is the cost - Between a consumer's expectation vs. the cost to make it available. True ZR1 rotor is available @$1400 - $1500 per rotor (after tax and shipping), but by the time the newly designed hats are made and assembled they are at $2,000/rotor, then adding calipers (Serious 6/4 pot that take huge pads 80mm width ~@$3,500), pads ($1,000-$1,500/car set), brake lines etc. ~ $13,000* is the mfg cost, so selling for $15,000 seems not too unreasonable although it's still better than your $33,000.

Price of a decent CCM rotor kit is not going to go any lower until Brembo or ST drop their rotor prices but comparing to 10 years ago it's already very affordable.

*Even the stock ZR1 bolt-on kit (no modification/design change) costs $9,000 with color adder $2,250 total: $1,1250

Viper Exchange offers at $12,000.00 to $15,000.00 (http://driveviper.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=182325)

RB can design and build a CCM brake kit for Viper 3/4/5 at its lowest possible price in the industry, the matter is if that's the price you are willing to pay.

Warren-RB

[Racingbrake]

Here is a rotor kit (no calipers) from Stillen/AP for GT-R.

$15,995

https://www.stillen.com/stillen-nissan-gtr-r35-carbonceramic-matrix-brake-upgrade-100191-stigtrccm1.html