Home Theater Guys - C'mon in

[IndyRon]

I'm curious how many guys have put together a home theater in their house? I'm in the process of doing mine in the basement and have pretty much finished the design. I initially was going to do all the construction myself but came across a company that is willing to build to my specs and has a lot of experience in the field for a reasonable price.

Right now I'm looking at a front projection 4K setup with a 120"diag screen 16:9 and formal seating for 10. I have all my components and electronics picked out and am really looking forward to getting this project going. I was curious for those that have a home theater or have designed/built your own what things you wish you would have done differently or changed about your setup? What unforseen things came up for you?

[FLATOUT]

Hi Ron,

I have a 135 inch Elite fixed screen, Epson HD projector, and the Pinnacle Microburst 1000 audio system.

I'll post pics and more details later, these are fun projects!

[Torquemonster06]

Subscribed. :fpopcorn:

[Bruce H.]

One of the challenges to designing a theatre in a basement is the affect of an inflexible concrete floor on bass frequencies. A typical wood floor acts as a diaphragmic absorber of those low frequencies, vibrating as it absorbs. This becomes the kinetic energy that vibrates the seating and enhances the impact of explosions and other sound low frequency sound effects. Also, as deep base is absorbed it also prevents the bass from being "boomy", as it effectively prevents it from lingering too long and muddying other sounds (reduces the reverberation time of it). You could consider installing a subfloor designed specifically for theatre use.

The size of the room has a dramatic affect on the ability to accurately reproduce sound, with 3000 cubic feet of interior space being considered a good place to start. The room's dimensions determine resonances (standing waves, room modes), and those are the frequencies that will be amplified by the room itself. All rooms have them, with them more likely to be a problem in a smaller room. Have your designer do a room modal analysis to determine in advance whether your room will have serious issues...sometimes moving one wall 6 inches can make a significant improvement to sound quality.

Have you learned about room acoustics, and how to improve the sound by incorporating those features?

[ACRucrazy]

I am going to be doin one in my basement this year. Still picking out the gear but it's looking like Marantz gear in a Sanus rack, Martin Logan speakers, Screen Innovations motorized screen and most likely an Epson projector. I was actually working on the list last night. The room is smaller but it's getting torn down to the studs and redone. It won't be terribly crazy, but hope to have some quality gear and decent work done to it since it's not a dedicated theater but a living room with an old fireplace.

[NSviper]

I have Cork on the basement floor in mine. Not sure if that's a good thing or not :)

[Patgilm]

The one thing I would have done differently was sound proof my theater better. When I am watching movies late at night the whole house shakes and the windows two floors up vibrate. I would have used green glue and double dry wall to help this. Make sure your theater is not square as bass will cancel out and if you want it to sound good, make sure you look at sound treatments like bass traps and sound treatments at the speaker reflection points. Do some research on AVS forum, it helps a lot.

[Dusty1]

Make sure you leave plenty of budget for seating, at least in my build that was the single most expensive component.

[FLATOUT]

Make sure you leave plenty of budget for seating, at least in my build that was the single most expensive component.

That was my most expensive piece as well.

[Bruce H.]

Is this a dedicated home theatre or media/multi purpose room?

Have you considered and planned for dealing with HVAC noise, and sound and vibration control to limit those from escaping to other parts of the house?

[2010.Blue.White.ACR]

Here's a theater in a guys house that I do work for

[commandomatt]

Power, power, power !!!

Be sure to get more than enough Watts. You will most likely be working with Class D amps and those need to be high watts to work well. Especially if you are driving big, inefficient speakers. Its not about loud but about clean sound

I run 4000 watt in subs (built into speakers) and 200w into 7channels (McIntosh). This in a relatively small room

[IndyRon]

Thanks for all the responses guys! I'm definitely taking all those suggestions into consideration. As far as details, I'm going to be running a Screen Innovations Black Diamond 1.4 gain 120" diag. zero edge and the Sony VPL-VW600 4K projector. For audio, Klipsch Palladium 11.2 (dolby atmos with 2 front and rear height speakers). Right now, 2 subs...rep is trying to talk me into Palladiums but I really like the Seaton Submersives. There isn't a single bad review on them. Marantz 8801 Pre/Pro and ATI amps 300w into 4 ohms all channels driven.

It will be probably 80% movies/TV with 20% music. The project was supposed to be on a budget but I kept having to compromise on things I didn't want to compromise on and don't want to spend twice on things because I'm not happy with the end result. About the only thing that I wanted but just couldn't bring myself to dropping the coin on was full McIntosh Pre-pro and amps for all channels.

I really appreciate all the input regarding room treatments since I do want to isolate the sound from the rest of the house as best as possible and minimize dead spots as well as reflected sound. I'll continue to research this.

[Patgilm]

Can't go wrong with Seaton Submersives. Easily one of the best subs out there if not the best. Keep in mind sound room treatments are different than sound proofing. Room treatments will improve the sound and sound proofing will isolate the sound to the theater. See the links below. I have used both of them and they are very helpful.

http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/

http://www.gikacoustics.com/

[ACRucrazy]

If you want a 7.2.4 Atmos system, wait for the AV8802, as the 8801 does not offer Atmos. Boom, I just added another $1000 to your theater lol.

[Bruce H.]

That's an impressive equipment list! As far as your budget goes, and not being able to do everything that you might like, consider that great audio results require a high performance room more than ever-higher performance equipment, and that equipment selection can never make up for a room that's acoustically lacking. Given the choice between cutting back a little on equipment or the room, even mid-level gear wins every time...but don't expect your audio retailer to back me up on that ;)

I mentioned some of the challenges of clean deep bass reproduction in a basement because that is the toughest aspect of audio to get right in any theater. Calculating and analyzing "room modes" will tell you if you're going to have major issues with deep bass frequencies, and be used to determine the best placement for the subs within the room, along with other speakers and primary seating. That will allow you to make informed decisions as you plan the whole room. A room that's designed to support accurate sound reproduction doesn't need to cost a fortune.

A cost effective approach to keeping the sound and vibrations inside the room is to "de-couple" the walls and ceiling from the structure of the house. A studded wall with drywall on both sides basically behaves like a drum, with a beat on one side being played on the other. You can de-couple the theater room surfaces by strapping studs and ceiling joists with resilient (Z) channel and attaching minimum 1/2" drywall to them, being careful that the drywall screws go into only the channel and not the studs and joists. Then glue and screw a second layer of drywall to the first, effectively making a 1" or more thickness of drywall. The thicker drywall vibrates at a higher and less problematic frequency, less sound passes through it, and it transfers little vibration to the rest of the house.

Bearing in mind that up to 90% of sound can pass through a 1" hole in a 100 sq ft wall, you want to seal that drywall around the edges with acoustical sealant, and seal electrical boxes and switches, and around doors, as best you can. You can use economical "Safe and Sound" doors. Avoid cutting holes in drywall for pot lights, or devise sealed boxes behind them. Use acoustical batts between ceiling joists and studs to absorb sound passing through the walls. Roxul brand is quite effective and economical. Building supply stores sell the channel, sealant and batts. A well-sealed room also enhances the job of the subwoofer, allowing them to more effectively pressurize the room at a lower output level.

Room acoustics and treatments is a large and important area, but it doesn't need to be expensive, or utilize specialized equipment and products. The double layer of drywall improves sound quality, and you can hear its effect even when speaking in a room. Music and theater rooms needs to be acoustically "tuned" by control sound reflections and reverberation time. Sound absorption is a big part of that, and carpet, drapes and furniture all help in that regard. Some specifically designed absorption panels strategically placed to handle reflections from speakers off the front side walls is a well-known technique, and they can be as simple as a wood frame covered in fabric concealing Roxul batts. Reflective and diffusive surfaces on the rest of the side walls and diffusive across the rear all aids in creating an enveloping surround sound field. You can achieve great results using book cases and other furniture, wall art, mouldings, ect. It's easy to get too much sound absorption of some frequencies, giving the room a dead sound, and a study of "sabines" would be a good start to learning about what's involved in calculating a good balance for movie and music rooms.

You might also want to consider whether consulting with a home theater designer would benefit you, or using some of the software tools that they do if you have that level of understanding. Great sound reproduction is a science, and they can quickly tell you if your proposed room is going to have serious problems just based on room shape and dimensions. They can also ensure that your plans cover off a wide range of other considerations, and give you pointers where you need them. http://www.cedia.org/ is a great resource.

Good luck with your exciting project!

[pastohio]

Motion curtains to hide the screen when not in use....stair step various floors so you can see over the person in front, hide the equipment in tinted glass so that all the red lights from equipment looks like a bunch of monsters when the lights are low.....put in a hand held light dimmer.....put in some small led lights for any steps in the room, put in fixed tables or some that fit in holes in the floor, easy to bump over a small table with drinks and snacks on it when in the dark !!! Some of my $.02...

[Bruce H.]

Some of the "WOW" features I've enjoyed:

Electric curtains covering a picture window and roll down screen in front of it.

Custom lighting system, incorporating linear lighting around the perimeter of the room concealed above crown moulding dropped a couple of inches below the ceiling, and shining light across it. Indirect lighting in cabinetry and equipment rack at the back of the room. Carefully located pot lights with diffusers. Riser lights to prevent tripping. All lighting on remote controlled dimmers.

Full room automation with touch screen remote. One touch to turn on equipment, display chosen equipment function icons, automatic activation of curtain, screen, and ventilation, and pre-movie/movie/intermission/reading lighting scenes activated automatically with play/pause/stop function buttons or manual control.

Tactile transducers placed under second row seat riser.

Walk behind equipment rack.

Ceiling projector hidden in cabinet matching room décor

Full sound-proofing and acoustic treatments.

[Sybil TF]

Nice!

[Vipes]

When's movie night? I'll bring the popcorn and beer!

[Patgilm]

consider that great audio results require a high performance room more than ever-higher performance equipment, and that equipment selection can never make up for a room that's acoustically lacking. Given the choice between cutting back a little on equipment or the room, even mid-level gear wins every time...but don't expect your audio retailer to back me up on that ;)


1000% correct right here. If you are spending as much as you are on equipment you better make sure that room is done right or you are just throwing money away since it won't sound great (although you will tell yourself it does since you spent so much money). If you aren't in to this type of thing or getting accurate sound and don't really care about it that much, don't waste your time spending so much money on equipment/speakers.

[IndyRon]

You guys are right in that the designer hasn't stressed a lot of acoustic treatment for the room. I'm researching quadratic diffusers now and plan on bass traps in the rear corners at least. Drywall will be double layered. Some of these things are a compromise in aesthetics or sound and I have to find a medium. I don't want the room to look like a recording studio. I've really been impressed with some of the theme based theaters on houzz.

My one issue is that I don't want the room completely enclosed. I'm likely going to have a half wall with counter on the back wall about 10ft wide for some additional seating so the room won't be sealed to the rest of the basement. I was planning on using some heavy curtains that can be dropped in the rear when not entertaining large parties over 8-10 folks. I'm hoping the curtains in the rear will act as both a sound absorber and diffuser given the pleating on them.

Any input regarding a room that has an open half wall in the back when it comes to sound and setup? The theater room is approximately 21x19x9 so ~ 3600 cu.ft. It opens into a much larger open floor plan finished basement.

[Bruce H.]

Your room definitely has some significant acoustical challenges, with the containment and tuning of bass frequencies being pretty much impossible. It sounds like you've made an informed and considered decision to leave the room open to the rest of the basement, and these kind of compromises are often necessary in a home.

But the good news is that a great theater experience isn't dependent on audiophile grade sound quality! It's more about being transformed into another world, the one created by Hollywood and movie directors. Some decors start to strip away your world as you go down the basement stairs and view movie theater and concert posters and props, continue as you pass through a mingling area, and full immersion as you enter the main theater. The anticipation and "willing suspension of disbelief" starts well before the system turns on, where the studio sound effect of an actor's punch landing with a room shaking thud somehow seems real.

While the movie director is far more interested in your system's ability to accurately reproduce intelligible dialogue, enough dynamic range to reproduce very loud sound effects, and accurately place sounds around the room, the audiophile is much more concerned with the accuracy of instruments, a broad and deep soundstage, detail, and natural voice reproduction. You should still be able to accomplish all of those things quite well with attention to basic, inexpensive, and décor friendly absorption and diffusion techniques. I'd just be cautious that you don't get caught up in the audio system component selection too much as mentioned before. Features affecting operation and system integration, and sufficient amplifier power, are important, but the "Law of Diminishing Returns" definitely applies so be careful not to get sucked in too deep thinking you'll hear the difference. I would also resist buying manufactured acoustical products like diffusers. If you know enough to be able to correctly choose and place one that will be effective then you'll also know enough to integrate something more decorator friendly. Bass tubes need to be optimized for specific frequencies, and you won't be able to predict those frequencies, or how problematic they will be, until you test the system in the finished room.

Your family and friends are going to love this room!

[IndyRon]

Bruce,
Thanks again for all the information! I really appreciate it. Regarding the openness of the back half-wall, I'm OK with minimal containment throughout the basement. When you say tuning bass frequencies, what do you mean? I understand that I'll lose some sound pressure due to the open area in the back of the theater but I should still be able to achieve a fairly flat frequency response down low with proper bass traps and room treatment in the theater space, correct?

I'm still learning this as I go, obviously and want to maximize what I have though, as you mentioned, my wife makes sure that aesthetics are at least considered. :)

[Bruce H.]

Ron,

Glad to help with some pointers!

The frequency response of a room is generally determined by "reflections" above 300 hz, and "room modes" (aka standing waves) below 300 hz. A very reflective room would have a lot of hard surfaces and would be described as "live", and the frequency response described as bright. Some types of reflections are destructive and can be acoustically treated with absorption (ie front side walls of theater where the front speaker's sound reflects off the wall and then directly to your ears), and other reflections just need to be scattered to create an effective ambiance (ie rear side and back walls). You need some absorption, and for it to balanced across a broad range of frequencies and not just the higher ones that carpet and drapes tend to treat, but not so much that it sucks the life out of the room. I mentioned "sabines" earlier, which is the measure of absorption over a broad range of frequencies. A little research there will help ensure your absorption is somewhat balanced, and not just dulling the highs.

Below 300 hz, the frequency response is primarily affected by room modes, which is an amplification of specific frequencies determined by the distance between parallel walls and ceilings. Its sort of like how a wave pool works, using a little well-timed energy to excite a wave, making it larger and larger. You will have a "fundamental" mode frequency (f) for each of room length, width and height, and resonant frequencies at multiples of each of those fundamentals (f1, f2, f3...). If your back wall is 21' from the front, and were a full closed off wall, f would be calculated from the speed of sound, and for one half wave length, as ~1130 ft/sec / 2 / distance ft, or 565/21 = 27 hz....and f1 = 54, f2 = 81, f3 ect. Since the back wall is open, the effective rooms length is much longer, and the fundamental mode at a much lower frequency.

Now even if you closed off the room, any decent subwoofer is going to crank out 27 hz, exciting that frequency, and it will be heard as a drone. It's long wave length also makes it almost impossible to absorb, meaning it will linger for a long time in the room until it eventually decays. The most effective deep bass absorber is a diaphramic absorber like the room's ceiling, walls and floor, absorbing the bass frequency as it flexes and vibrates those structures.

A bass tube also absorbs bass, but one tuned to be effective at absorbing a 27 hz frequency would be 1/4 wave length long, or just over 10 feet! And since your back wall is open, and the fundaments frequency is much lower, I doubt that bass tube would fit in the garage, never mind fit down the basement staircase! They would also have the unwanted side effect of absorbing frequencies above and below 27 hz. You also have fundamental modes at 30 hz for your width, and 63 hz for your room's height, and all the resonant modes at multiples of those frequencies.

The only way to ensure reasonably flat deep bass response is through carefully planned room dimensions, with each dimension exciting different frequencies. So the goal is spread out those modes, and to avoid dimensions that cause too many overlapping modes. This is how you tune the room's bass frequencies, and where a theater designer starts his work. A "room mode analysis" would calculate the fundamental and resonant frequencies up to 300 hz to see if they are reasonable well separated from each other, with minimal close overlaps. There are software programs that do the work for you if you can find one, and consulting with a designer would cover this aspect and others.

Hope all that makes sense and helps!

Bruce

[IndyRon]

Bruce,
That is a huge help! I appreciate you taking the time to write it all out. I'm also reading the articles linked above. Let me ask this, given the circumstances, what effect (in general) will the addition of a half-wall open to a much larger space (~4ft x 10ft opening into over 20,000 cu.ft.) vs. a full wall in the rear of an otherwise dedicated and enclosed theater space have on lower frequencies? Should I expect much more difficulty in achieving a somewhat flat frequency response with more modes or the same modes just somewhat dampened due to the opening?

I know this is a complex problem and I'm speaking in generalities. The main reason I'm pursuing this line of questioning is to determine if I should just enclose the entire room. I like the open feel and look of the bar seating and 1/2 wall in the rear but like you said, I'm spending a bunch and don't want to be disappointed in the end result.

[Bruce H.]

The effect of the open wall will make little difference to your family and friends watching the movie with you, but divorce could be in your future if your wife is upstairs and you and your buds are using that room. Also, as a Viper owner you are likely just O.C.D. enough that it'll bug you that you are missing audio performance in the form of much weaker bass and a less enveloping rear surround field. For example, if the movie scene was a rain storm, the rain might be heard all around you except directly behind you where the opening is. And once you did notice something odd would you always be listening for it? It's just very hard to predict the sound quality in an oddly shaped room, and that's why rectangular shaped rooms are preferred.

Even THX certified subwoofers are typically only rated for 6000 cu ft in order to both provide the ability to pressurize that space and achieve the desired SPL. In my theater an on-screen explosion is felt in the chest like being hit by a shock wave, sometimes you feel your pant leg flutter, the chair moves as the whole floor flexes slightly, and you hear it. And because the room is rather well sealed I can create that visceral effect without having the system volume turned up high, or the subwoofer level jacked.

I meant to ask, while pleated drapes wouldn't help control bass frequencies at all, could you use a set of folding or sliding doors/panels to close in that area? The solid surface would provide the surface necessary to determine the room modes, and if they were sealed with weather-stripping that would provide some sound-proofing. Otherwise, I have a feeling your performance goals will dictate closing off the wall, but you'll have to weigh out that decision. Good luck!

[IndyRon]

The effect of the open wall will make little difference to your family and friends watching the movie with you, but divorce could be in your future if your wife is upstairs and you and your buds are using that room. Also, as a Viper owner you are likely just O.C.D. enough that it'll bug you that you are missing audio performance in the form of much weaker bass and a less enveloping rear surround field. For example, if the movie scene was a rain storm, the rain might be heard all around you except directly behind you where the opening is. And once you did notice something odd would you always be listening for it? It's just very hard to predict the sound quality in an oddly shaped room, and that's why rectangular shaped rooms are preferred.

Even THX certified subwoofers are typically only rated for 6000 cu ft in order to both provide the ability to pressurize that space and achieve the desired SPL. In my theater an on-screen explosion is felt in the chest like being hit by a shock wave, sometimes you feel your pant leg flutter, the chair moves as the whole floor flexes slightly, and you hear it. And because the room is rather well sealed I can create that visceral effect without having the system volume turned up high, or the subwoofer level jacked.

I meant to ask, while pleated drapes wouldn't help control bass frequencies at all, could you use a set of folding or sliding doors/panels to close in that area? The solid surface would provide the surface necessary to determine the room modes, and if they were sealed with weather-stripping that would provide some sound-proofing. Otherwise, I have a feeling your performance goals will dictate closing off the wall, but you'll have to weigh out that decision. Good luck!

Just an update. Construction has begun. All the walls are getting at least 2 layers of 5/8" drywall with green glue between. I'm currently trying to decide on whether or not to uncouple the ceiling vs. just put 3 layers of drywall on the ceiling. I went with a dedicated space so it is completely enclosed. The walls are going up now and then we will hopefully be starting on the drywall after some additional wiring is run. I'm hoping to have some pics to post along the way.

[mjorgensen]

Just an update. Construction has begun. All the walls are getting at least 2 layers of 5/8" drywall with green glue between. I'm currently trying to decide on whether or not to uncouple the ceiling vs. just put 3 layers of drywall on the ceiling. I went with a dedicated space so it is completely enclosed. The walls are going up now and then we will hopefully be starting on the drywall after some additional wiring is run. I'm hoping to have some pics to post along the way.

No matter what you put up for drywall on the ceilings if they are not decoupled you will hear everything that happens on the floor upstairs in your room clear as day. I wish I would have fully de-coupled my ceiling, but most of my watching or critical music listening is late at night anyway.

[ACRucrazy]

Cant wait for pics!

[Bruce H.]

Sounds good Ron, and the enclosed space is sure to be greatly appreciated at times and improve sound quality all of the time. Decoupling reduces the transmission of vibration and even just double drywall glued is very effective at reducing actual sound transmission. I'm not aware of triple drywall being a benefit over double, but maybe you can confirm that with research, otherwise put your money where it will help. If you do use resilent channel just ensure the installer doesn't put the drywall screws into the joists...just the metal track itself, otherwise you reduce its effectiveness.

Is the room a rectangle, do you have exact dimensions, and we're you able to do a room mode analysis in case shifting a wall a few inches would solve a problem with standing waves?

Bruce

[Late Apex]

I just got done doing a custom wine room but these home theater rooms are very nice and there is no end to the money one can spend on it.

[The_Cave_Man]

I have had my theater room done for quite a few years now. have been thinking about upgrading my projector, technology has to have improved a lot since i purchased mine.

Like most said having the right power for your speakers is key to a great sounding theater room.

wow i just googled my Projector, (mitsu HC5000bl) came out in 2007. yes, time for an upgrade

[Bruce H.]

We're At a resort this week and I can't follow television dialogue very easily because of all the reflections of sound off the concrete ceiling, walls, and tile floor making it virtually unintelligable. You need sound absorption to tame those reflections, and you need them in the vocal frequencies as well as in the bass and high frequencies that I mentioned in an earlier post. Treatments that work for highs won't work for those in the vocal range.

The way to learn more about getting the balance of absorption right across the important frequency band is to research "Sabines". Double drywall is effective at absorbing the lower vocal range, and thicker sound panels and some upholstered furniture for the upper vocal range. THX certified LCR speakers have specific dispersion patterns to reduce destructive reflections for this reason. They can also take away some music fidelity to though, so a room used for high fidelity music and movies benefits from a little extra planning.

Ron, If you'd like a hand doing a room mode analysis just let me know. This can be done if the room is rectangular in shape, opposing walls parallel, and you need to know the L, W and H between the proposed finished walls, floors and ceiling surfaces.

[IndyRon]

So since I was going to be investing a fair amount already, I've essentially gone all out on the design and construction.

Mark, I'm using whisper clips and hat channel on the ceiling and all 4 walls are double studded/walled and the inner wall is decoupled from the joists overhead with RSIC D4 clips. The master BR is directly above and I would like to be able to use the theater without the wife getting on me to turn it down.

Bruce, I may take you up on the offer if you have a spare minute to run the calculations. The room is essentially rectangular with a width of 17'6", depth 19'0'. Ceiling height is 8'9" in center with a 24" soffit around the perimeter that is 11" tall bringing the ceiling height around the perimeter to 7'10". These dimensions aren't negotiable unfortunately to get the seating arrangement and layout/appearance I want on the front wall. There is a 12" riser across the back 6'4" of the room. I will be using wall treatments as well. I'm planning on all 4 corners having floor to ceiling corner bass traps and now researching what I want to do on the walls. Probably mainly absorption with diffusion at the primary reflections on side walls and maybe the rear. That part is easy, the hard part is making it look aesthetically pleasing and not like a recording studio. Thanks for the advice everyone. I've been researching and learning as I go on this.

LateApex, you are absolutely right. You can get absolutely crazy with projects like this very easily.

[Steve M]

Sounds like a really cool project...I'd love to see pics of the finished project, especially the sound equipment.

[Bruce H.]

Ron,

I recommended the room mode analysis be done in the early stages of your room design because it is so critical. Unfortunately your room dimensions are going to create serious bass issues that cannot be addressed with acoustical treatment. Whenever any of the three room dimensions are close to being multiples of each other you are going to have problems. Your width of 17'6" is 2 times the height of 8'9", and the length and width are awfully close to being the same.

Room modes (aka standing waves, resonances) are specific audio frequencies that are artificially amplified by the room's dimensions, and they are very audible and annoying to the ear when the same frequencies are super amplified by more than one room dimension, and also when the successive modes are spaced far apart leading to noticeable voids in bass between the modes. The goal is to have the modes somewhat distributed across the frequency range below 300 hz, as opposed to the modes piling up on top of each other.

Here are all of the modes for your room with full height ceiling listed in order so you can see the spacing of them. Modes that are within 5 hz of each other are a problem, and modes separated by more than 20 ha are as well. I've bracketed the problem frequencies where one of those two conditions applies...which unfortunately is almost all of them. The distribution of modes affecting the raised back area is only slightly better, and I haven't included them.

(30 32 60 65 65 90 97 119 129 129 149) 161 178 (194 194) 208 226 (238 258 258 267 290) 297.

The most concerning ones are the 5 below 80 hz that are energized by subwoofers. Low frequency sound effects are added to soundtracks in the 30 hz range where all subwoofers can efficiently reproduce them at higher levels to create the desired impact, and also where sound mixers amp up music recording levels so a satisfying bass level can be heard on more popular sound systems...like in our Vipers with woofers they like to call subs!

The problems could likely all go away if you were able to narrow the width somewhat so that it wasn't so close to the room's length, and not an exact multiple of the room's height. If that isn't possible it may be possible to place the subwoofer(s) such that they don't fully energize the offending frequencies, position them out of phase to help cancel the offending frequencies, and position the money seat (yours) so your ears aren't in the worst affected parts of the room. Bass absorption won't likely be able to target any of these offending modes, and would just attenuate all bass frequencies leaving the problems in tact.

What bass absorbers will do however is reduce the reverberation time of the bass, helping it to more quickly subside in the room, and helping to avoid the thick or bloated bass affect that some room's have. The most effective deep bass absorber is the flexing of walls, ceilings and floors.

I'm sorry the modal analysis wasn't more favourable, but when I saw those dimensions I knew it was going to have issues. Here's a link I found with a Google search that explains the subject in very general terms...audioholics.com.

Bruce

[Bruce H.]

Looks like changing room width to 16'1" works rather well! Sounds like 2 rows of 4 seats, and a bit of improvising for larger groups!

[IndyRon]

Bruce, thanks for taking the time to run this. I have read that the closer to square the room is, the more problems there will be. Given what you've found it sounds as though slightly narrowing the room will solve many problems. The problem with narrowing the room is that I'll likely not be able to incorporate corner traps in the front of the room due to stage, screen width and room for speakers. Would you say that this trade off will be still worthwhile minus front traps? Can you post the numbers for the modified width ?

Thanks! BTW, how did you become so well versed? Is this the line of work you do?

[Bruce H.]

Ron,

The narrowing of the room moved the critical low bass modes to at least 5hz apart, and those remaining are at high enough frequencies that it's entirely possible that the impact of the bulkheads around the perimeter of the room would alter those modes to the point that they might not even exist any more. There are still some voids of more than 20 hz, which is unavoidable in smaller rooms that are typically less than 3000 cubic feet (with you just under 2700), and they are also at high enough frequencies that they are likely to go unnoticed. The only way to improve on this is to find another few feet of room length!

30 35 60 65 70 90 105 119 129 140 149 175 178 194 208 210 238 245 258 267 280 297.

And yes, I do have some training in the design of rooms to support high performance audio :)

Bruce

[Bruce H.]

Regarding available space for front corner traps...I think thick bass absorption across the entire front wall would be much more effective than small corner traps. What corner traps were you planning to use, and what frequencies are they effective absorbing? Specs?

The best way to deal with the lowest frequency room modes is to not energize them by placing the subwoofer(s) in the room where they peak. The 30 Hz mode only peaks against the front and back wall, so positioning the sub out from those walls will help. That room length's first harmonic mode is the 60 hz listed, and it peaks in the middle of the room's length, and this leaves the optimal location for the sub woofer at the 1/3 room length, which will be the optimal in all rectangular rooms.
This is also the same for the room's width modes which are the 35 and 70 listed. Now most room layouts won't permit a subwoofer sitting that far out from the walls, but your stage might permit for it sitting out somewhat. A second subwoofer is sometimes used to cancel one or more of these modes by being wired out of phase.

Bruce

The other thing is to avoid the main seating from sitting in those same peak modal locations. Since you aren't sitting against the wall anyways then you've already avoided the 30 and 35 hz modes, and if your money seat avoids sitting dead centre in the room's length you will avoid the 60 hz harmonic peak as well. The best viewing and listening seats will be in the middle of the room's width though, so you can never really avoid the room width's first harmonic, which is the one at 70 in your room. If your seating rows are 4 wide then you will actually be slightly off centre in the room's width...yay! So subwoofer location can reduce energizing room modes, and listening position can reduce the negative effects of them.

[IndyRon]

Regarding available space for front corner traps...I think thick bass absorption across the entire front wall would be much more effective than small corner traps. What corner traps were you planning to use, and what frequencies are they effective absorbing? Specs?

The best way to deal with the lowest frequency room modes is to not energize them by placing the subwoofer(s) in the room where they peak. The 30 Hz mode only peaks against the front and back wall, so positioning the sub out from those walls will help. That room length's first harmonic mode is the 60 hz listed, and it peaks in the middle of the room's length, and this leaves the optimal location for the sub woofer at the 1/3 room length, which will be the optimal in all rectangular rooms.
This is also the same for the room's width modes which are the 35 and 70 listed. Now most room layouts won't permit a subwoofer sitting that far out from the walls, but your stage might permit for it sitting out somewhat. A second subwoofer is sometimes used to cancel one or more of these modes by being wired out of phase.

Bruce

The other thing is to avoid the main seating from sitting in those same peak modal locations. Since you aren't sitting against the wall anyways then you've already avoided the 30 and 35 hz modes, and if your money seat avoids sitting dead centre in the room's length you will avoid the 60 hz harmonic peak as well. The best viewing and listening seats will be in the middle of the room's width though, so you can never really avoid the room width's first harmonic, which is the one at 70 in your room. If your seating rows are 4 wide then you will actually be slightly off centre in the room's width...yay! So subwoofer location can reduce energizing room modes, and listening position can reduce the negative effects of them.

Bruce, I was planning on floor to ceiling traps in all 4 corners, 24" from the corners with a face width of about 34". I was planning on using roxul rockboard 60, superchunk style, cut into triangles and stacked floor to ceiling. With a narrower room, the best I could hope for would be about 16" out from the corners and maybe 26" across the face of the traps in front.

Regarding seating, I'll have 2 rows, a row of 4 in the rear and a row of 3 in the front. Money seat will be located in the center of room width +/- and about 11-12 feet from the front wall or approximately 24-30" back from the absolute center of the room. The rest of the walls will also have treatments as well with the majority of the walls covered. The soffit and ceiling at least initially will not.

[Bruce H.]

I suspect you may need less absorption in the front corners than you think, and you can accomplish your goals with a completely different distribution of Roxul in the room.

What is your understanding of the function of the corner located traps, and what do you expect them to do? Could you instead cover the entire front wall with less thickness, including behind the screen, under the stage, and massively under the large riser to accomplish the same thing?

Are your LCR speakers designed for "free air" placement (out from the wall, and how far out?) or are they acoustically designed for boundary mounting on or against a wall? If boundary designed you can set them into the Roxul and covered by the same fabric to keep everything more compact to the wall.

Will LCR's all be located under the screen or will L and R be set beside the screen? What spacing of L and R from each other do you plan? If all under the screen could you have the Roxul extend out slightly beyond the face of the screen to house more absorption without taking up excessive corner space? And lastly, could you place more absorption behind the rear row of seats across the bottom portion of the wall, still allowing for diffusion on the upper walls?

With regards to subwoofer placement, could you set one into a niche built into the wall that you are moving in 17", perhaps concealing behind fabric covering front side wall absorption placed for LCR early reflections? And could a rear sub be placed on the riser behind or between the second row's middle seats?

[IndyRon]

I suspect you may need less absorption in the front corners than you think, and you can accomplish your goals with a completely different distribution of Roxul in the room.

What is your understanding of the function of the corner located traps, and what do you expect them to do? Could you instead cover the entire front wall including behind the screen with less thickness to accomplish the same thing?

The corner traps are for 2 reasons. First, my basic understanding from reading is Bass accumulates in corners and corner trapping gets you the most bang for the surface area buck (disagree?). Second, convenience. I know I need low frequency trapping to decrease reverb time and I don't have anything else that needs to go in the corners. Front wall is out. The backdrop for the screen will be a stacked stone background across much of the front wall similar to this except not extending all the way to the corners.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c280/rpinieck/LL2_zpspyy7qvrb.jpg


Could you instead cover under the stage, and massively under the large riser?

Yes, but wouldn't I need to have holes cut in the stage and riser to allow the LFE to pass through or will LFE pass through carpet, padding, studs and OSB to get to the absorbing material? If so, I'll fill the riser for sure. The stage I was told to fill with sand to make it more inert...yes/no?


Are your LCR speakers designed for "free air" placement (out from the wall, and how far out?) or are they acoustically designed for boundary mounting on or against a wall? If boundary designed you can set them into the Roxul and covered by the same fabric to keep everything more compact to the wall. Will LCR's all be located under the screen or will L and R be set beside the screen? What spacing of L and R from each other do you plan? If all under the screen could you have the Roxul extend out slightly beyond the face of the screen to house more absorption without taking up excessive corner space?

I'll be running Klipsch Palladium floorstanding LCR speakers. Here's a pic. The L/R channels are 56" tall and 24" deep, so no flush mount. Even if I could...I wouldn't...I think they are beautiful works of art and want to see them. :)

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c280/rpinieck/dsc_0808_zpsuekyajtk.jpg


And lastly, could you place more absorption behind the rear row of seats across the bottom portion of the wall, still allowing for diffusion on the upper walls?

This I absolutely could do. I should be able to space the rear seats at least 6" from the rear wall, so trapping along the bottom half of the rear wall across the back is definitely doable.


With regards to subwoofer placement, could you set one into a niche built into the wall that you are moving in 17", perhaps concealing behind fabric covering front side wall absorption placed for LCR early reflections?

Bruce, you'll have to help me with this. Are you suggesting building a little cubbie in the wall that the sub could then reside in with the front face roughly flush with the interior wall surface? If so, it would be a fair amount of extra construction work for each sub but could be done. Question, can a sub that has dual opposed drivers be done this way? I'm thinking not...that I'd need a single forward facing driver sealed box or a ported box with the ports on the front for this to be acceptable, correct? No passive radiators or drivers facing the inside of the cubby.


And could a rear sub be placed on the riser behind or between the second row's middle seats?

No, due to space limitations (I wish I were able to make the room deeper than 19'...I'd love to have 23-24' of depth) the only place in the rear half of the room for sub space if not built into a wall is along the side walls or rear corners in front of traps. The caveat to that is if I were to run a cylinder shaped sub like the SVS PC13 which has a small footprint. I could get it on the back wall but still not in the center of the room.

http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr229/adam_ah/P1000331_20percent.jpg

I owe you a meal if we are able to get together in New Orleans for the next Viper Meet in 2016! :)

[Bruce H.]

Having an awkward time quoting on my daughter's iPad Ron, sorry.

Absorbing in corners is efficient when limited space is available, mostly because energy entering the corner bounces off two wall surfaces before reflecting back out into the room, thereby doubling the distance it passes through the absorber. Ones designed for corner to ceiling placement triple the path length as energy bounces off three surfaces through the absorber, but neither are good solutions for a theater.

In a theater you benefit from much more absorption across the front wall for a number of reasons related to the accurate reproduction of movie sound tracks. But also because unlike in a music room where the speakers can be placed well away from all walls (allowing them to breathe if you will), you end up tucking them into tight surroundings against two walls and you compensate for that by lining those walls with absorption so the speakers sound like they are well away from any walls. This is why I asked about the designed placement of your speakers, and I don't imagine they are intended to be up against a wall or tucked into a corner. Maybe check to be sure.

Love the look of a ledge stone wall, and it would be a great finish on at least the upper side walls in the rear 2/3 rds of the room where it would be a superb diffusion material for the side surround speakers! Just giving you some sound advise (haha)...and at least letting you know where there's a compromise involved.

Stuff the stage and riser with Roxul and leave a gap at each end and against the wall, and inside of them as well to allow for passage of sound waves. Maybe shim it off the floor with some sort of spacer as well and build it strong so it won't rattle.

I am suggesting the subwoofer in a cubbie, and if you have a sub with drivers on two sides then put it in there on its side with drivers facing up and down, on some sort of a stand that places it at least a foot or so off the floor. If it could be done at half room height it would avoid stimulating the room's height 65 hz mode...winning! (Note that the room height's harmonic is the 129 hz mode, but since it is well above the sub's crossover frequency range closer to 80 hz the 1/3 dimension discussed in post 41 becomes 1/2. Your other speakers produce the 129 hz frequency and those speakers will be positioned at suitable heights to avoid stimulating that mode much.)

Placement of rear sub in corner or sidewall will amplify the room modes, not settle or smooth them out, so that's out. If you can leave provision for a future sub if required close to centre of rear wall then do that. With the wider frequency LCR's you may be able to set the main sub's crossover low enough to avoid some of the modes that the careful placement of a second sub would have counteracted.

Okay big spender...since the meals are free at NVE how about owing me a drink instead ? LOL

[IndyRon]

Hah, I had no idea that meals were free! Ok, deal, drinks then. I grew up in the Big Easy so I know just the places!

I'm investigating the option of cubbies for the subs and actually have room in the rear behind the rear wall at riser level such that I could do a cubbie in the center rear of the room behind the rear seats in fact, if you think this would help low end frequency response. I can also do a cubbie at floor level roughly 1/3-1/2 distance back on one side wall as well. What are your thoughts about those placements vs. the rear corners? I can also place a sub in the front stage with the LCR's but I hate the fact that things won't look symmetric....OCD kicking in.

[Bruce H.]

Deal :)

No subwoofers located in corners when a reasonably flat lower bass response is desired...ever! Every room mode will unfortunately be amplified by the sub below 80-100 hz depending on crossover setting, and while that will give the impression of strong bass for movie sound effects from even a weak sub, it will be very peaky and low quality, especially when listening to music where certain bass notes would be 2-3 times louder than others.

The ideal sub location is away from the mode's peak, but where that is for the room length's 30 hz mode 1/2 way down the room, that's exactly where the 60 peaks, and the 90 peaks at the 1/4 location. So that's why the location that provides the smoothest overall room response is 1/3 down the side wall.

Response across the room's width is different though because it's lesser dimension creates only two modes in the sub's range, at 32 and 65 Hz. While one good sub is all you need for strong bass, the reason we're considering a second sub is to try to smooth the low frequency response, and the back wall is the best place in your room. But anywhere on the back wall will stimulate too the room length's 30 hz mode...unless we run it 180 degrees out of phase! So while the front sub is stimulating that mode the rear sub is working to cancel it. Cool! And if the back sub is located in the middle of the back wall where the room's width 70 hz mode peaks, then that's close enough in frequency for the reversed phase sub to help counter-act as well.

The third set of (axial) modes is for the room's two height dimensions, which for full height at the front of the room is just 65 hz in the sub's range, and the place where it won't be stimulated at all is the mid height point. The rear height is less, making it's mode at 71 hz as far as the sub is concerned, and again mid-height is the perfect placement.

If you have extra space in the narrowed wall cavity for another cubbie, that could be a good place for your equipment if you like, and perhaps for an exhaust fan for the heat it generates, and anywhere in that cavity for HVAC ducting. Theaters do tend to get hot with equipment and numerous people in a sealed room. Try to minimize HVAC system noise if the furnace is close to the theater by having 3 or more elbows in the ductwork between it and the room to attenuate sound. There are also sections of ductwork for soundproofing, absorption liners you can add to cold air return ductwork, and even lining the inside with an EDPM rubber can be effective. If the furnace is noisy you can sit it on vibration isolation blocks, and further prevent it from conduction vibration through the ductwork by having a flexible boot installed between the air handler and the duct take offs if you don't already have those installed already.

And a further note on the front wall. Two channel music and multi channel movie soundtracks contain a high level of sound from the acoustics of the recording venue or studio. That is a critical part of the sound, and carefully mastered. The acoustics of the playback environment is just as critical as it will either allow for the accurate reproduction of that sound, or it will change it. Oops, time dictates that I have to leave this now until tomorrow (have to check out of the resort we're at) and I'll pick this up Monday night when I get home.

Bruce

[IndyRon]

Great information Bruce. Right now, given the other expenses, I'm looking at running a single sub, although a serious one. I'm looking at a JTR orbit shifter LFU. This one I could hide inside the room built for the rack and accessories as you mentioned with the port open to the room. I could run this one 1/3 the way down the side wall with the opening to the cabinet of the folded horn approximately 18-24" off the floor. Thoughts on this sub? I think I'd have plenty of overhead in this room volume and given the cost (and size) was hoping to get away with a single unit without too many nulls or cancellations in the room. Your thoughts?

[GreenVenom]

Sounds nice Ron, hope to check it out sometime! I wish I could help but I just only recently traded up to a 65" from my 32" and spent 3 days trying to get the cable box and DVD player hooked up right 😕 Hope to see you Saturday.

[Vprbite]

Great information Bruce. Right now, given the other expenses, I'm looking at running a single sub, although a serious one. I'm looking at a JTR orbit shifter LFU. This one I could hide inside the room built for the rack and accessories as you mentioned with the port open to the room. I could run this one 1/3 the way down the side wall with the opening to the cabinet of the folded horn approximately 18-24" off the floor. Thoughts on this sub? I think I'd have plenty of overhead in this room volume and given the cost (and size) was hoping to get away with a single unit without too many nulls or cancellations in the room. Your thoughts?

If you want to build a practice one in my house to hone your skills I would help you out with that. J/k.

Sounds like you are crossing all the T's and dotting the I's. I have never done a build like this but it definitely is worth putting the energy in now and really making sure you are doing everything right. I honestly think the wiring is so much easier now. With HDMI and the ability to run cat5 I think it really cleans up the wiring. When I did a home theater setup with my roommate in college it was pre HDMI and trying to get everything wired in was a rats nest, especially for tying in components.

Are you hardwiring in Internet jacks into the room too while you are there or just going to use a router? I still like hardwiring for things like gaming and streaming. Even with high quality, super fast routers, something about me is still old school about plugging straight in. Thought that is probably just weird habit. I have to use powerline Ethernet here to get internet to the rooms because a router can't get through all the brick and then the router is just to distribute in the room.

Can't wait to see, and hear it when it is all done. When I was looking at houses when at the time I bought this one, I looked at a place with a lot more land (I didn't go with it cause it was too far out of town) but had I bought it I was going to build my own drive-in on the property. I thought that would be so much fun. I still may do a drive in movie party on my property using a projector one night. But man I would have loved a true drive-in on my property.

[IndyRon]

Sounds nice Ron, hope to check it out sometime! I wish I could help but I just only recently traded up to a 65" from my 32" and spent 3 days trying to get the cable box and DVD player hooked up right �� Hope to see you Saturday.

Absolutely. Thanks! We are on the wait list for a room at West Baden Springs for Valentines so if that doesn't come about, we may go.


If you want to build a practice one in my house to hone your skills I would help you out with that. J/k.

Sounds like you are crossing all the T's and dotting the I's. I have never done a build like this but it definitely is worth putting the energy in now and really making sure you are doing everything right. I honestly think the wiring is so much easier now. With HDMI and the ability to run cat5 I think it really cleans up the wiring. When I did a home theater setup with my roommate in college it was pre HDMI and trying to get everything wired in was a rats nest, especially for tying in components.

Are you hardwiring in Internet jacks into the room too while you are there or just going to use a router? I still like hardwiring for things like gaming and streaming. Even with high quality, super fast routers, something about me is still old school about plugging straight in. Thought that is probably just weird habit. I have to use powerline Ethernet here to get internet to the rooms because a router can't get through all the brick and then the router is just to distribute in the room.

Can't wait to see, and hear it when it is all done. When I was looking at houses when at the time I bought this one, I looked at a place with a lot more land (I didn't go with it cause it was too far out of town) but had I bought it I was going to build my own drive-in on the property. I thought that would be so much fun. I still may do a drive in movie party on my property using a projector one night. But man I would have loved a true drive-in on my property.

I'm with you on hardwired connections. It actually works out pretty well in my case as the AT&T service enters the house right behind the theater so that aspect will be easy. I've never considered building a drive-in but that would just be awesome. I'm somewhat nostalgic and remember when drive-ins were what you did when you wanted to see a movie. I remember a date I went on one time. I had a Ford Explorer at the time with a sunroof, we opened the sunroof, inflated an air matress on the roof with a couple pillows and watched a drive-in movie in the open air. We were above all the other vehicles and it felt as though we were the only ones around. Good times.

[Vprbite]

Obviously routers are fast these days but with gaming getting more and more complicated or for wanting to plug in a different source to input to the screen (home movie from a laptop for example) I just like the simplicity and reliability of a hardline. And I don't know about you,but I have never had to get up and unplug a hardline connection, wait thirty seconds, plug it in and hope that fixed the problem.

I used to go to the drive in here in Tucson in college. It actually only closed in 2006 or so. I'be always had pickup trucks and found that sitting/laying in the bed of the truck was a great way to watch a movie. Also, I don't know if you have ever tried to sneak a cooler full of beers into the regular movies but it is a bitch. It's totally easy at the drive in. And they were/are cheap too. Phoenix still has one that the club may go to for an event.

Sounds like you will have it just how you want, Let me know when the grand opening of your home theater is. I will come and play music for the pre-movie gala.

[Bruce H.]

Great information Bruce. Right now, given the other expenses, I'm looking at running a single sub, although a serious one. I'm looking at a JTR orbit shifter LFU. This one I could hide inside the room built for the rack and accessories as you mentioned with the port open to the room. I could run this one 1/3 the way down the side wall with the opening to the cabinet of the folded horn approximately 18-24" off the floor. Thoughts on this sub? I think I'd have plenty of overhead in this room volume and given the cost (and size) was hoping to get away with a single unit without too many nulls or cancellations in the room. Your thoughts?

I'm not up on the current crop but that's a monster of a sub, and likely way more than you need. 2 smaller subs would be better than one large one in your size room to deal with the room modes, and one would still be large enough if you didn't add the second. I always liked Velodyne and have an 18" 1200 watt model, and a Jamo 15" 300 w THX Ultra sub. Either is enough to fill a room much larger than yours to reference levels, and I use the pair to smooth the bass in my <3000 cu ft room as I'm suggesting for yours. They will be split up into two rooms that I'm building that are large enough that bass response will be quite smooth with just one. The Velodyne is going into a great room (~7000 cu ft) that is also open to the rest of the house, and a dedicated theater room (~4000 cu ft).

Try to find some equipment reviews from audiophile professionals where they did their testing in properly prepared and documented rooms. Hopefully you'll find one that's closer to your room size ... because size matters! They'll have a reference system that they know intimately, and are able to make a valid comparison when testing new pieces. I'd do that for both the sub and the Klipsch speakers, and I'd also ask a trusted retailer if they have recommendations for your size of room, particularly in regards to the stage area size and reflective stone wall behind the LCR's. Hopefully the Palladiums are a good match for that acoustic space.

I'd also look at the rear row of seating and see if there is any way you can get it further out from the wall to improve the sound quality heard. Fight for every inch like it really matters. I wouldn't worry about lots of room to stretch out legs, or for the front row seats to recline. I don't know how compact or bulky your seats are, but try to get them so that your ears will be at least 16" away from the wall, and extra gold stars for every inch beyond that. By the time you're done you might even have room for a small sub back there. And remember the Home Theater Rule...if you're over 40 years old, and it's after 8 pm, if you recline your seat you will probably go to sleep!

[IndyRon]

I'm not up on the current crop but that's a monster of a sub, and likely way more than you need. 2 smaller subs would be better than one large one in your size room to deal with the room modes, and one would still be large enough if you didn't add the second. I always liked Velodyne and have an 18" 1200 watt model, and a Jamo 15" 300 w THX Ultra sub. Either is enough to fill a room much larger than yours to reference levels, and I use the pair to smooth the bass in my <3000 cu ft room as I'm suggesting for yours. They will be split up into two rooms that I'm building that are large enough that bass response will be quite smooth with just one. The Velodyne is going into a great room (~7000 cu ft) that is also open to the rest of the house, and a dedicated theater room (~4000 cu ft).

Try to find some equipment reviews from audiophile professionals where they did their testing in properly prepared and documented rooms. Hopefully you'll find one that's closer to your room size ... because size matters! They'll have a reference system that they know intimately, and are able to make a valid comparison when testing new pieces. I'd do that for both the sub and the Klipsch speakers, and I'd also ask a trusted retailer if they have recommendations for your size of room, particularly in regards to the stage area size and reflective stone wall behind the LCR's. Hopefully the Palladiums are a good match for that acoustic space.

I'd also look at the rear row of seating and see if there is any way you can get it further out from the wall to improve the sound quality heard. Fight for every inch like it really matters. I wouldn't worry about lots of room to stretch out legs, or for the front row seats to recline. I don't know how compact or bulky your seats are, but try to get them so that your ears will be at least 16" away from the wall, and extra gold stars for every inch beyond that. By the time you're done you might even have room for a small sub back there. And remember the Home Theater Rule...if you're over 40 years old, and it's after 8 pm, if you recline your seat you will probably go to sleep!

Thanks Bruce. I won't be able to get the rear seats more than about 6-8" away from the rear wall unfortunately due to it pushing the front seats closer and closer to the absolute center of the room (which I'm trying to avoid). Due to the relatively shallow 19' depth, it kinda limits my options. I really wish I had about 21' depth on the room but I'm limited by immovable joist/beam supports. I will get the rear seats as far out as possible. I'll also line the rear wall with traps to help as much as possible.

There is one other guy local here that is running that sub and willing to audition his listening space so I'm hopefully heading over there to take a listen pretty soon. One thing I'm having some trouble with is the door. I'd like a premade/prehung door for the application but haven't found any great options. I may end up buying a 1 3/4" solid core door and adding a couple layers of MDF and Green Glue to it with some hinges and good seals. Due to the fact that I have a lot of other parts of this project vying for attention, if I could find a purpose-made soundproofed door for less than about $600, I'd jump all over that. Any ideas?

[Bruce H.]

Ron,

I'd suggest you cover most or all of the back wall above seat back level with broad band diffusion, not absorption. This serves the dual purpose of breaking up sound reflections from the LCR's to prevent them from degrading the front soundstage image, and is also necessary to scatter the sound from side wall mounted dipole surround speakers. They direct sound along the side walls and across the rear wall so the sound has to bounce off other surfaces before it reaches your ears, thereby preventing you from localizing where the sound originated...and thereby making the sound appear to "surround" you. Since the ear can't localize sound from above ear level as easily, this is why side speakers are mounted 6 feet or more high on the walls. Upper side and rear wall diffusion enhances the scattering effect of surround speakers in a smallish room, simulating a large array of direct firing side speakers in a large commercial theater.

"Safe and Sound" doors by Masonite are available at Home Depot and Lowes. They do an excellent job when weather stripped to prevent leakage around them, and I think they are available prehung, perhaps by special order.

Bruce

[IndyRon]

Ron,

I'd suggest you cover most or all of the back wall above seat back level with broad band diffusion, not absorption. This serves the dual purpose of breaking up sound reflections from the LCR's to prevent them from degrading the front soundstage image, and is also necessary to scatter the sound from side wall mounted dipole surround speakers. They direct sound along the side walls and across the rear wall so the sound has to bounce off other surfaces before it reaches your ears, thereby preventing you from localizing where the sound originated...and thereby making the sound appear to "surround" you. Since the ear can't localize sound from above ear level as easily, this is why side speakers are mounted 6 feet or more high on the walls. Upper side and rear wall diffusion enhances the scattering effect of surround speakers in a smallish room, simulating a large array of direct firing side speakers in a large commercial theater.

"Safe and Sound" doors by Masonite are available at Home Depot and Lowes. They do an excellent job when weather stripped to prevent leakage around them, and I think they are available prehung, perhaps by special order.

Bruce

I think we are on to something Bruce. I'm comparing diffusing panels currently and will do that on the back walls and first reflection points. Regarding absorption on other wall surfaces, what is your product of choice to put behind fabric paneling? Linacoustic? OC703 1" thick? Other type of duct liner?

[Bruce H.]

The Linacoustic should be fine for the duct, but completely inadequate for treating the first reflections, or anywhere else IMO. The problem is that it is only effective at high frequencies, and the more of it you use the more you suck the important high frequencies out of your room.

High frequencies already decay quickly just in air, and carpet, drape, screen and upholstery absorbs it as well leaving the lower and mid frequencies untouched. Absorption that you add needs to be broad band, and fairly effective down closer to 100 hz if you can. The 3" OC 703 NRC ratings shows it's still quite efficient at 125 hz, with the 3" Roxul Safe and Sound being about the same at a fraction of the cost. I made a pair of fabric covered first reflection panels using 3 1/2" Roxul for my theatre. I made it about 4' w X 6' h which was just wide enough to treat those reflections from LCR to both rows of seating. I kept it small to minimize the amount of extra high frequency absorption as the absorption you tend to need in a theater is in lower frequencies that carpet/underpad, drape, etc have no effect on. Over stuffed upholstered seating helps lower down, as does heavy use of Roxul down low behind the rear seating, and under the stage and riser in your case. These areas won't suck out the highs as high frequencies don't reflect off of those surfaces, yet do work on bass frequencies.

I used LCR speakers with a narrow high frequency vertical dispersion pattern (THX standard) to minimize high frequency reflections off the ceiling and floor. It's unlikely that you will want to treat the ceiling, but I mention it as some equipment is specifically designed around the challenges of the small home theater. They are also intended for close to wall installation and the left and right are set into angled corner niches filled with Roxul and covered in the same material used for the drapes. This type of mounting in Roxul meant I didn't have to worry as much about the front wall acoustics (and reflections off of them) that were behind and beside the speakers. In your case I'd be prepared for the possibility that you "might" want to treat the front wall behind the Klipsch speakers, depending how they interact with your stone wall, and how sensitive your listening is...particularly to music.

[IndyRon]

I'll definitely keep those thoughts in mind. I also agree with you regarding getting absorption in the upper LFE frequencies wherever possible. The one thing I may have a difference of understanding with you is in regard to first reflection points. You state that Linacoustic would not be optimal as it will absorb higher frequencies preferentially. My understanding of the Roxul as well as the thicker OC703 is that it also absorbs the high frequencies in addition to the low frequencies as well. In other words, you won't get diffusion with 703 on first reflection points either. Thoughts?

I was thinking of using quadratic diffusion across the upper back wall and at the first reflection points.

Regarding the stone wall. I'm hoping that the stone design will give some decent diffusion due to it being irregular and somewhat varied in thickness. There will be corner bass/full frequency traps/absorption to help at the corners anyway so that should do some good.

I am planning on not treating the ceiling, at least at first. I also am planning on 80% movies/tv/sports and 20% music so hopefully, even with the inevitable compromises, that both will have pretty impressive performance. My inner walls are currently up now and the HVAC work is done. We are now working on the hush box, rack and subwoofer enclosure once I return from Disney with my family.

Just out of curiosity, what is your setup currently and room specs? What do you use your room primarily for?

[Bruce H.]

I'm not looking for a scattering (diffusion) of early reflections...I'm looking to eliminate (absorb) them. A thin layer of Linacoustic would absorb the highest frequencies where it is efficient, but neither diffuse or absorb much in the 150-300 hz range where much of the vocal range is. Our ears and brain are very sensitive in the vocal range. Those side wall reflections aren't a problem in a larger room because the distance the sound travels is much greater than the distance the direct sound takes from speaker to our ears. The brain is able to "filter" reflections that are heard with this greater "time delay" and this filtering helps prevent the soundstage image and detail created by the LCR's from becoming muddled and distorted. The key to ensuring movie and music dialogue and vocals are as intelligible as possible is to eliminate the first reflections...scattering them with diffusion does not help.

You could create your own broadband diffuser for the back wall with some shelving or cabinetry with some of your favorite items displayed. The key is to have items of different sizes (width, depth and height) arranged randomly on the shelves, leaving varying width of space between these items so sound gets all the way to the back in some places. Different size books randomly arranged and spaced does a good job, as would your collection of racing trophies and spare rotors, calipers and brake pads :) You could hide your diffusion creation or a store bought quad diffuser behind fabric if you prefer.

The best front wall treatment in a small room is absorption, not diffusion, for a similar reason as for first reflections. That reason affects music more, where the ability of the speakers to recreate the depth of the recording venue's stage (and the correct placement of various singers on that stage) is deteriorated by the playback rooms front wall reflections. The sound from the speakers can also suffer from a comb filtering effect that cancels some frequencies and amplifies others based on the distance from the side and front walls. When speakers are placed further away from adjacent walls these affects are lessened, and this goes back to my earlier comments about concern for the design and recommended placement of your LCR's relative to the front and side walls. Some speakers are designed to be placed close to walls, and others sound better when out 5 feet or more. You can improve the performance of the latter by covering those adjacent surfaces with absorption like 3" or more Roxul, and not just the corners. And there's no reason why you couldn't remedy such a case with portable sound panels set in front of the stone wall for critical listening sessions if you felt the need.

A good rule of thumb for a home theater is to have the front 1/3 of the room absorptive and the rear 2/3 diffusive. This placement provides the acoustical environment for all speakers to function well and to re-create the soundtrack as accurately as possible. It also helps ensure the rooms reverberation time isn't too far off for movies or music.

Most rooms have issues and making compromises is common for both home owners and theater designers...although a huge budget generally helps a lot! Don't sweat it if every detail can't be ideal. You do the best you can, often times working around competing and opposing factors. Your efforts will be rewarded in great sound and an engrossing cinematic experience. And I bet the next home you buy will be chosen for its suitability for a great theater room!

My theater has been partly dismantled for a while as we prepare to move its equipment from our city home to our lake house where I have a more basic surround setup at the moment. I built the existing one in our main floor family room and we used it extensively for casual tv, serious movie viewing and for serious music listening. The room is roughly 12' X 18' (double 1/2" drywall, sound proofed, treated), and main equipment is Sony LCD projection, 94" Stewart 1.3 electric screen, Lexicon 7.1 pre/pro, Rane THX EQ, ATI and Bryston amps, Jamo THX Ultra speakers, Velodyne 18" and Jamo 15" subs, Irwin theater seats, PVR, DVD, Harmon Kardon tuner (receiver). It's all moving up to the lake when renos are complete and the new theater room is ready. It will have our gym equipment in the back of the room to encourage us to use them more!

[IndyRon]

That's great information Bruce. I didn't know the vocal range was 100-300 Hz. I don't know why, I always thought it was 1 KHz plus or minus. I also never considered the idea of portable sound panels to place behind the LCR's for listening sessions. That is an inexpensive and simple solution that may work out great.

I had a chance to audition a members home theater last week nearby who has a writeup on avsforum and I was impressed. He did some things differently than I would have but also and most importantly gave me some great ideas and suggestions based on things that he learned through the process. He was running Seaton Catalysts and Procella surrounds as well as the same JTR sub that I was looking at. I don't think I've ever heard a system capable of getting so loud and yet still clean with no distortion. At one point, it became disorienting and a bit uncomfortable when I asked him what kind of overhead he had. This is a very interesting hobby.

[Bruce H.]

Adult male voice starts as low as 85 hz and females around 165 hz, and then go way up from there.

Regarding the side wall treatment...I'm sure there are lively debates about the desirability and treatment of sidewall first reflections, but the key is really the relationship between the distance of direct sound from speaker to ear and distance from speaker to sidewall to ear for the reflected sound. The greater the distance of the reflected sound compared to the direct sound, the less destructive the reflected sound will be due to the ear and brain's ability to filter out reflected sound based on its time delay relative to the direct sound. If your speakers were against the 19' wall and you were sitting in front of them the first reflections would be so delayed as to not need treatment at all. But in your case the speakers are so close to the side walls, and you're fairly far back relative to that (particularly in the back row at the very, very back) that a strong case can be made for absorption. The sound heard in the back half of the room is already affected by many reflections beyond the first or early reflections, so encouraging more with diffusion on the sidewalls is really counter productive...in your room. Here's a "how to" link for panels like I have used with good success repeatedly. I'd recommend 3.5" thickness so the lower vocal range is absorbed along with the highs so you don't change the tonal balance of the sound any more than necessary. Higher NRC values at the lower NRC frequencies is good.

http://acousticsfreq.com/blog/?p=62

Very high SPL's is probably a lot like high HP...it's easy to get carried away if you have enough dollars to throw at it, and you'll likely only use it when demonstrating to friends like he did for you...or should I say to you! Once you get over the novelty of being able to induce pain at will you will likely never use that ability again, and your long-term hearing will thank you.

This is a very interesting hobby indeed, and my serious personal interest into high performance music rooms and home theater ramped up after reading a much earlier edition of this book. It went a long way to unlocking the mysteries and challenges of reproducing accurate sound, and set me off on an intense journey to go on to learn more, and expand my company's activities into this field.

http://www.amazon.ca/Master-Handbook-Acoustics-Sixth-Edition/dp/0071841040

[FLATOUT]

Forgot to post mine up:

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n133/ZOSICK/Theater1.jpg (http://s111.photobucket.com/user/ZOSICK/media/Theater1.jpg.html)

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n133/ZOSICK/Theater2.jpg (http://s111.photobucket.com/user/ZOSICK/media/Theater2.jpg.html)

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n133/ZOSICK/Avatar2.jpg (http://s111.photobucket.com/user/ZOSICK/media/Avatar2.jpg.html)

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n133/ZOSICK/AvatarScreen.jpg (http://s111.photobucket.com/user/ZOSICK/media/AvatarScreen.jpg.html)

[IndyRon]

Andy,
That setup looks killer. That is the exact seat layout that I have chosen also. 3 front 4 rear, all curved with a loveseat in the center of the rear row. Out of curiosity, what are the room and screen dimensions? Also distance from the screen to each row? Thoughts and recommendations on things you would have done differently?

[Patgilm]

Wow sounds like you have made some real progress since I popped in last. Just curious, are you using it solely for movies? Have you thought about Seaton or JTR speakers? I have B&W's and I like them but if I had to do it all over again I would have bought JTR speakers based on hearing similar type speakers for movies. It pretty much describes what you heard with the Seatons.

[IndyRon]

Wow sounds like you have made some real progress since I popped in last. Just curious, are you using it solely for movies? Have you thought about Seaton or JTR speakers? I have B&W's and I like them but if I had to do it all over again I would have bought JTR speakers based on hearing similar type speakers for movies. It pretty much describes what you heard with the Seatons.

I did give it some thought, but since I will be using the room for 2 channel and surround dedicated audio at least some of the time, I wanted something just a bit more musical, if that makes sense. The Palladiums accomplished the detail and intensity I want for movies (given the fact that most theaters are running Klipsch), they have the aesthetics and build quality of a high end piece of furniture, and they are still capable of being warm and inviting and reproducing subtle nuances of 2 channel listening at lower volume levels as well. There are probably better choices in each category individually, but this one did enough well in each for me to decide on them over the B&W (which I also liked), JM Labs, KEF, Paradigm, Def Tech, etc.

[Patgilm]

I did give it some thought, but since I will be using the room for 2 channel and surround dedicated audio at least some of the time, I wanted something just a bit more musical, if that makes sense. The Palladiums accomplished the detail and intensity I want for movies (given the fact that most theaters are running Klipsch), they have the aesthetics and build quality of a high end piece of furniture, and they are still capable of being warm and inviting and reproducing subtle nuances of 2 channel listening at lower volume levels as well. There are probably better choices in each category individually, but this one did enough well in each for me to decide on them over the B&W (which I also liked), JM Labs, KEF, Paradigm, Def Tech, etc.

So I just bought a Marantz 8801 prepro (so cheap now!) and I know earlier you listed this as something you were looking to get; however I also noted that you were going to use Atmos. Note that you will need the Marantz 8802 to get that just FYI.

Also, one thing I would strongly recommend trying out home theater seats for an extended time if possible and really get an idea of their comfort before you buy them. I bought a set a Berklines for my back row and I thought they were comfortable at the time and now I hate them which I really noticed after watching a long movie. Most home theater seats are very plush and I now know that I like more firm seating. So now I am in the process of junking my Berklines and getting new theater seating. Thank god I didn't by two rows. I am now looking at some Pallisers, kind of budget seating like the Berklines IMO but I like a certain model that is firmer.

[IndyRon]

So I just bought a Marantz 8801 prepro (so cheap now!) and I know earlier you listed this as something you were looking to get; however I also noted that you were going to use Atmos. Note that you will need the Marantz 8802 to get that just FYI.

Also, one thing I would strongly recommend trying out home theater seats for an extended time if possible and really get an idea of their comfort before you buy them. I bought a set a Berklines for my back row and I thought they were comfortable at the time and now I hate them which I really noticed after watching a long movie. Most home theater seats are very plush and I now know that I like more firm seating. So now I am in the process of junking my Berklines and getting new theater seating. Thank god I didn't by two rows. I am now looking at some Pallisers, kind of budget seating like the Berklines IMO but I like a certain model that is firmer.

Thanks for the input. I was considering the 8801 but like you said, non-atmos....the 8802 is just starting to arrive but doesn't have HDCP 2.2 for true 4k yet or the DTS-X (atmos equivalent) so I'm thinking for right now, running the 7702 and then upgrading in a year or so when the DTS and 4K stuff matures. This is the one thing that I actually have no idea what I'm going to run yet and am stalling as long as I can to allow the technology to mature. That said, I'll need to be making a purchase in the next 4-6 weeks.

On a side note, I'm really pumped. I scored some McIntosh amps! I was looking at Emotiva or Outlaw with ATI being my higher end but found some room in the budget to pick up an MC207 and MC58. Everyone tells me that the Mac's have some of the lowest THD and pair well with horn style speakers like the Klipsch. I can't wait to hear them.

On seating, I totally understand your frustration. I found myself initially falling into the concept of picking out theater seats like I'd pick out a sofa. You don't want to sink way down in them and want them to be comfortable yet supportive...after all, they aren't for resting, they are for watching movies or listening...active processes, albeit sedentary. I ended up going with Palliser Media's and it took me a while to decide. I'm hoping I like them long term considering the price...they are proud of their product.

[FLATOUT]

Hey Ron sorry I missed this post from you.

Screen is 135 inches, and I remember taking all of the measurements at the time but honestly can't remember then now. I remember the recommended screen for my space was much smaller maybe 105 inch or so, but like making my cars louder than I should I just said F it put the big screen in.

I don't regret it one bit and am very glad I went with a bigger screen. I sit on the front row and love it, feels just like being at the movies.

As for the sound I have a bar mounted center under the screen, and sub up front and two satellite speakers up high in the rear corners. The only thing I would change about the current setup is adding two more speaker up high in the front of the room in the corners as right now the room sounds different if you are sitting in the front row as opposed to sitting in the back row. Both sound good, but they sound uniquely different.

Andy



Andy,
That setup looks killer. That is the exact seat layout that I have chosen also. 3 front 4 rear, all curved with a loveseat in the center of the rear row. Out of curiosity, what are the room and screen dimensions? Also distance from the screen to each row? Thoughts and recommendations on things you would have done differently?

[IndyRon]

Well, the room is coming along. I have the walls up, building the equipment room now and the ceiling is drywalled. The next step is installation of electrical, building the riser for the back row seating, and insetting the diffusers into the rear and side walls. My sub came today along with my seats. This thing is going to rock.

Here is a pic of the sub that arrived today. This think is going to rock.

9715

[BigBadViper]

wow i just googled my Projector, (mitsu HC5000bl) came out in 2007. yes, time for an upgrade

I had that same crappy projector until earlier this week. It has 1000 lumens and looked like crap. I went with a Christie LC5500. It has 5500 lumens and now I can finally see things in there. It looks just as clear as my LED TVs but on a 135" screen.

What I want to change in my theater is my seating. I have been looking at several different options. I want something with a love seat but haven't found the right chairs yet.

[Bruce H.]

Well, the room is coming along. I have the walls up, building the equipment room now and the ceiling is drywalled. The next step is installation of electrical, building the riser for the back row seating, and insetting the diffusers into the rear and side walls. My sub came today along with my seats. This thing is going to rock.

Here is a pic of the sub that arrived today. This think is going to rock.



Hi Ron,

This thread is long overdue for an update...how did you make out?

Bruce

[IndyRon]

Hi Ron,

This thread is long overdue for an update...how did you make out?

Bruce

Hey Bruce, Thanks for posting. The room has been in a perpetual 98% done state but fully functional for the last 8 months or so. I'm extremely happy with it. I have an Oppo 4k UHD blu ray going in this week to replace the std 1080p so will be fully 4k compatible from source to display soon. Ended up splurging for the top Klipsch Palladiums...they are as beautiful as they are musical.

We love it. I added crowson tactile actuators to hit the sub 20hz freq on the slab for the front row seating. The theater is completely soundproofed and decoupled from the rest of the house. 7.2 kW of subwoofage...

Have LED's (RGB) in the soffit as well. Just aren't turned on. Full independant ventilation sub 25dB room with a 300# inner door that is 4.5" thick and zero international seals. Room is pretty much air tight.

It was a labor of love for over 1 year but we absolutely love it. Kids in bed by 8pm, wife and I grab a redbox bluray and crank it up, full immersive experience with Atmos, and doesn't wake anyone. I'll post some pics in a min. It'll be just the tip of the iceberg but you'll get the idea...as you know there is so much engineering in base traps, 1st reflection absorption, diffusion that you can't see due to the false panels on the walls.

The best part is, it looks like a million bucks when you see it in person and I think really adds to the value of the home.

[IndyRon]

21937219382193921940

[Patgilm]

Wow that looks amazing! Unbelievable. I ended up buying the same seats as it has pretty good lower back support.

[BigBadViper]

That looks great. Looks like your work really paid off.

Just curious. Do you guys use your theaters alot? I have a 65" LED in the bedroom with a soundbar and we use that for everything and hardly ever watch the theater.

Damn kids would rather watch a movie on their phones. I can't really understand that.

[Bruce H.]

That looks like an outstanding job, Ron...WOW!!!

You went to town on the decor, beginning before even entering it, which is a big part of the complete theater experience. The classic theaters of the 1930's paid great attention to creating an immersive experience starting at the box office that would begin to transport guests into another world as they moved from the vestibule, to lobby where they would be briefly held, and then finally into the auditorium when the doors were opened, stripping away the problems of the day as they moved from area to area.

I'll have to go back and read the details of your equipment and setup again to refresh my memory.

[quickster2]

We use our "theater" quite a bit although it is not near as elaborate as IndyRon's. I also have an extensive collection of Blu-Ray and other medium's Concert & music discs as well as "too many" (never) MFSL discs. We rarely go to the movies outside of our lower level.

[ACRucrazy]

Hell of a theater Ron!
Some Macs to go with your Palladiums with Marantz and Furman. All good stuff! I bet it sounds amazing.
SI zero edge LED screen too. Nice!

[IndyRon]

ACRu, you have a good eye. The Mac amps were expensive but I wanted something that would last for 20 yrs and had a great reputation. The only decision I'm still torn over was the use of the Screen Innovations Black Diamond screen. Its an ambient light rejecting screen that works great with lights on in the room but there are ever so slight artifacts that I notice..subtle nuances to the screen materials/coating that others don't seem to see that make me wish I'd have gone with a Stewart standard white screen...but then again, if you want good performance with ambient light, its the only option.

Thanks for all the compliments guys. Lots you can't see in the pics, like for example the front stage is filled with 1200# of sand to prevent vibrations and behind some of those panels on the walls are acoustic diffusers that are inset into the walls, behind others are ventilation ducting, and others have fiberglass absorption material. I still have to finish the clouds that will be suspended from the ceiling this spring.

Honestly, we use the theater pretty regularly. As a family we aren't really TV people and prefer movies but its set up to do both. I haven't been to the movies for over a year and am unlikely to ever go back. The theater just can't rival the quality or experience, even Imax.

I took pictures of the whole process along the way and my wife wants me to do a write up and get it published in Electronic house. I learned a lot and while I don't relish the idea of moving, I have new ideas for something even cooler if I were to ever do it again.

[ACRucrazy]

Ya that's the downside of the ALR screens. What projector and throw do you have? Is that a .8 gain BD? It's hard to tell on my phone but appears to be? How was it getting that size of a rigid panel in your house? Haha. I have had some clients learn the hard way..

Im a B&W guy, but I'm envious of those Paladiums! They sure are great with the supporting gear you have. I'm glad to see a sweet spot in the front row! I'm always disappointed when a nice room is put together and there is no sweet spot!

I would love to see some pics of the build someday.

[Bruce H.]

Ron,

How did the room's frequency response turn out for the front seating row? Did you do any testing or equalization calibration, and what did you use for that? How does it sound for 2 channel and surround music?

I assume you ended up choosing the JTR sub. Do you feel one is enough output, and are the bass frequencies even enough without a second one to help balance it out?

How are you using the tactile transducers...with rear riser sitting on one or more?

We ended up buying a different home since your thread started, and I've just recently started installing the system there in large third floor loft. The room is wide enough that the main speakers are far enough away from the side walls that I don't need to treat any direct reflections off of them to the listening positions, and large enough that deep bass response isn't too peaky, but it definitely is going to need a new and heavy duty subwoofer or two to replace my blown 18" Velodyne.

And in re-reading this thread I realized we missed having dinner in New Orleans!!! How is Vegas looking for you :)

Bruce

[IndyRon]

Ron,

How did the room's frequency response turn out for the front seating row? Did you do any testing or equalization calibration, and what did you use for that? How does it sound for 2 channel and surround music?

I assume you ended up choosing the JTR sub. Do you feel one is enough output, and are the bass frequencies even enough without a second one to help balance it out?

How are you using the tactile transducers...with rear riser sitting on one or more?

We ended up buying a different home since your thread started, and I've just recently started installing the system there in large third floor loft. The room is wide enough that the main speakers are far enough away from the side walls that I don't need to treat any direct reflections off of them to the listening positions, and large enough that deep bass response isn't too peaky, but it definitely is going to need a new and heavy duty subwoofer or two to replace my blown 18" Velodyne.

And in re-reading this thread I realized we missed having dinner in New Orleans!!! How is Vegas looking for you :)

Bruce

Bruce,
I used the JTR orbit shifter, you can see the port about 1/3 the way down the left hand wall next to the rack and about 12" off the floor. Bass lvls are pretty good throughout the room. The back row has about a 3-4 decibel increase in bass response and there are a few nodes in the bass/midbass frequencies that need softening but I saved room behind the rear seats for the targeted bass traps to be built on those frequencies (hemholtz resonators). I'm currently learning about the Room Equalization Wizard software and how to use it. I bought a calibrated professional mic and will likely play around with that this winter a bit more. The bass would be a bit more even if I had a 2nd sub but I'm not sure i can get a small sealed sub to match the characteristics of the Folded horn.

I can tell you that that sub alone is TOO DAMN MUCH bass...its capable of 133db outside! at 1 meter, can't imagine what it could do inside. I've cranked it a few times and it can get nauseating (my goal :P). It does balance nicely at reasonable listening levels and with the gain left at an appropriate position.

As far as the tactile transducers, the Crowsons are the nicest on the market from what I've gathered. I only have the front row equipped since those in the front will most likely want the most "immersive" experience anyway. The front row is about a 43deg viewing angle and I think the rear was something like 36 deg with the 120" screen. The SI screen is the middle one, I think its 1.3 or 1.4 gain.

Speakers were a tough choice but I didn't want something hidden, but rather works of art to show off. The palladiums do that nicely and they perform great and are efficient with the horn design. Klipsch is over 80% of commercial theaters so I knew I would get great movie experience with them. 2 channel music is good but still needs some tweaking IMHO...its getting there. One of the coolest part of the Klipsch purchase was that I got a personal tour of the R&D and headquarters of Klipsch which is right here in Indy. They took me to the engineering areas and have a showroom and demo room for their lines as well as a historical room of all the older klipsch speakers of the past. Very cool. The tour ended with some demonstrations within thier anechoic chamber that was something I'd imagine would be be more at home in NASA...it was crazy. Super neat experience with a 14" thick door that is pneumatically sealed. Sound cannot be localized in that room at all...neat physics and testing they do there.

Could go on and on. If I get the time to do a writeup, will put it up for you guys to see. Would love to make Vegas!

Here is a few pics i had on my phone...you can see some of the hidden ventilation as well as the inset diffusers, bass traps and other details during the construction and the building of the panels (major PITA).

219952199621997

[Bruce H.]

Very impressive design and attention to detail!

Hopefully your resonators and some light EQ will take care of the deep bass room modes well enough to satisfy you. Any well positioned smaller sub may be able to help compensate if further treatment of modes is needed. I would, however, caution you against expecting to make the response ruler flat. An achievable goal would be to make it sounds good to your ears regardless of what the sound meter shows!

I'd go to town on equalizing the front main speakers to the center, since they're a different design and likely somewhat tonally different, and because of the "boundary effect" of being placed in acoustically different positions relative to surrounding walls. And then EQ the "splice" between the center speaker and the sub by carefully adjusting sub output in that frequency range.

I was testing sub placement in my new room last night with the Jamo THX sub, which unfortunately is a bit undersized for the volume of the large room. Placement along the front wall yielded a pretty incredibly flat response in the primary seats of +/- 2 db above 25 hz, and weaker but usable response down to the 16 hz fundamental room mode frequency. Unfortunately my blown monster Velodyne 18" is not repairable, and would have likely been quite flat to 16 hz. The bass actually sounds and feels satisfying, but not nausea inducing like the pair did in my previous theater. Not sure if I want to chase that goal we both shared! Adding a second sub now would just increase SPL above 20-25 hz where I don't need it. Replacing my sub with another expensive monster is a possibility, but my ears have already given the existing sub the thumbs up!

How did the placement of the side surrounds work out, and is the placement behind the front row according to recommendation? I'm assuming they are direct firing as opposed to dipole. Are they intended to be localized for placement of movie track sound or diffuse for a more general surround effect?

Bruce

[Vprbite]

I'm asking the mods to please close this thread as it is making me jealous.


Wow, you guys have some impressive stuff here. Looks awesome! I'll grab some popcorn and be by next week : )

[Patgilm]

Wow your attention to detail is amazing and it seems you are pretty handy, way more than me. I know what you mean by using a ton of sand, I did the same thing for my stage. It was a pain in the ass and my basement doesn't have a walkout entrance so I had to lug the bags through my house and down the stairs. My friends thought I was nuts.

[Vipes]

That's unbelievable Ron! I've never seen anything like that before, looks amazing!

[IndyRon]

Thanks really appreciate the compliments. If you guys are ever in the Indy area, stop on by, throw the viper on the lift for an oil change and we will kick back a few brews/pizza and watch a movie.

Bruce, the THX and Dolby recommendations for the side surround are to be located 90-110degress from your seating orientation. That is impossible with 2 rows so what I did was put the side surrounds at about 100 degrees to the front row (money seats) and the rear seat positions ended up falling at about 75-80 degrees from listening position. A nice compromise. I agree with you on the flat response...its likely unattainable so I just want it smoothed as much as possible and good to my ears. Good luck on the sub issues...I've found that low frequency balancing and flat response without sub audible localization is a bit more work than it seems, especially when dealing with the WAF (wife approval factor) as wives for some odd reason think that subs are unattractive. :P

Another big issue was getting enough throw on the projector to prevent any hotspotting which necessitated building the recessed box for housing the projector. A couple side benefits of that ended up being a cleaner look, quieter, and dedicated ventilation to the projector.

Here's a few more pics of the sand/stage construction, some ventilation and dead/vent assembly, and my spending a RIDICULOUS amount of time making the door disappear and getting it frenched into the inner wall of the theater and hidden when closed.

2203222033220342203522036

[Bruce H.]

Happy New year to all!

Ron,

Bit of history for those who may not be aware. Recommendations for room acoustical treatment, speaker design and placement, and even the playback equipment all changed when George Lucas created THX to research and address commercial theater shortcomings, and then they moved on to the far more challenge home theater. They developed a set of standards for Cimema, then Home THX. Back then we just had Dolby Surround and Dolby Digital 5.1. Surround technology has improved, but much of what we do today is a result of the reseach that they did in determining the challenges of both spaces and creating solutions for them.

One unique home challenge was the ability to create an enveloping and convincing surround field in a small room with just two speakers instead of 20-24 that line the side and rear walls in a cinema. To do that they couldn't use a direct firing speaker as wherever they put it the ear would locate the sound coming from it instead of all around like it's supposed to. So they delevoped the dipole surround speaker, with front and rear firing speakers (wired in opposite phase) that spread most of the sound along the side walls (simulating sound from several speakers) and not towards the listener sitting beside it. They also found they needed to roll off some high frequencies and place them a couple of feet above the listeners head on the side walls to make it even harder for the listener to localize the source of sound. I've found that using dipole surrounds that meet this THX standard for both side and rear really perform well in multi row theater. I use older THX Ultra certified Jamo Surround One's for the sides because they have a wide null to the sides good for two rows, THX Boston Acousitics for the rear because of their slightly narrower null which actually works better there where our ears can't localize the sound easily anyways, vet still spreads the sound right across the rear of the room. If anyone finds their side surrounds are too easy to localize they might consider trying a THX dipole design.

Ron, I ran cables into the attic yesterday for the new projector, but still a bit torn on how far back I want to go from the screen, which can be 9'-19'. Closer to the screen gives the brightest light output, further back less, and with calibration, auto iris reducing output in dark scenes, and 3D reducing even more, I'm tempted to keep it more forward, which is over the front row seats set for 36* viewing angle. I had one in my last theatre set into the back wall like you've done, then a different one mounted directly over the front row in a custom shround with some sound dampening. I haven't received the projector yet so can't try anything. I'm wondering if you experimented with light output with yours in different positions, has it been calibrated yet, if it's bright enough at the back, and if you could explain the cause of the "hot spotting" you mentioned.

I also wanted to ask about your decision to fill your stage with sand instead of sound absorption. Plywood stages make excellent low frequency absorbers, with their flexing causing the absorption, and assisted by the Rokul. Maybe the sand accomplishes both if the plywood can still flex!

This will be my first experience with 4k. I found in the last theater with this 94" screen that I seemed to be more comfortable watching from the second row seats at around 16 ft than the front row at about 11' (36*). Many like yourself sit much closer, achieving more like a 45* view. Are you sitting closer with 4k than you have in the past with other resolutions? Yoiur room depth and need for a second row placed the front row where it is, but if you had a longer room would you have shifted both rows back a bit?

Also, can you explain what we're looking at in the venting picture?

Bruce

[IndyRon]

Bruce, All my surrounds are bipole Klipsch palladiums. In fact the colums were built specifically to house that speaker. The columns are filled with absorbent material to act as traps also. The stage is only about 4" high and the volume isn't that much so I figured it wouldn't help much with low freq and decided to fill rather than absorb with it.

Regarding the surrounds, mine are also positioned just above the rear seat ear level to acoomplish what you described. I didn't want to get them too high either though as I didn't want them interfering with the ability to reproduce Dolby Atmos and DTS-X sound tracks (which I believe is the direction of home theater audio and will soon become the reference standard much how Dolby digital 5.1 set that years ago).

With 4k, its so new that a lot is dependent on the original recording resolution in the master and how well it has been transferred/rendered on the UHD disk. Some are very good while others not really any better than 1080p blu ray. The nice part about 2.35:1 aspect ratios (which most higher budget movies are recorded in) is that the human eye does a much better job at assimilating horizontal field of view extensions than vertical field of view...There is a lot of talk about the old 36deg standard for Horiz FOV being too small and most are going to 40deg minimum (THX standard). Keep in mind that most IMAX front 5 rows are over 60 degree field of view! (I'd never sit there). I found that at about 44deg at 2.35:1 aspect ratio that especially with 4k and even 1080p content, its not too close or overwhelming. On top of that my front seats recline over 18" horizonally so you can lay back and achieve 40 deg if you prefer. And, if I want the older <36deg experience, I just sit in the back row! :P

With 4k at 40-45deg, its not so much the resolution that is limiting for me, its actually the FPS...I'm very sensitive to judder and my eyes can notice a significant improvement going to 60fps or even higher. Others find it nauseating for some reason when its super smooth like that but maybe I'm just used to it.

Regarding the distance, it was a compromise in the end though. I was limited in depth on the room and literally stole every inch I could get. The studs behind the screen wall were notched for the steel house support columns immediately behind. There wasn't an extra 1/2" to spare. In a perfect world, my room would have been about 12" to 18" deeper and I would have ended up at ~40deg and ~33deg for the viewing angle but with this setup its an easy fix also. I figured if I didn't like the SI Black diamond screen I'd just go with a Stewart standard screen and just get a 110" instead of the current 120" and viola! Now I have the lower viewing angles.

The Venting is very complex but basically I have DC brushless pusher and puller motors moving air in and out of the theater through a hepa filter to keep the room comfortable and clean. The 2 fans you see are extractors running at low RPM that pull stale air out of the theater and push it into the whole house air return after passing though approximately 25feet of sound absorptive material.

[Patgilm]

Bruce,

I have B&W rear and side surrounds that have the option of dipole vs direct firing. I have tried both ways and I just prefer direct firing even though what you said makes sense as to why you would want dipole.

I also have the same problem of two rows of seating and put them 90 degrees to the side of my rear seats. I had them in between the rear and front rows at first but since I always sit in the back row I moved them back. It was hard find the right compromise on my side surrounds.

As for the sand, I filled my stage since I have two JL audio F113's on there and wanted it as solid as possible.

[mjorgensen]

Great room Ron, really did the construction right, it takes dedication to spend that money and not just fill the space with a 110K worth of electronics. My room is dual purpose, mostly music for me though so everything is out and on wall so I can change things up as needed #becausehobby lol. Room is 16'x23'x8'-9' isolated, all dedicated 20A outlets, staggered stud 8" walls. There is a 65" TV behind the screen I'm thinking of moving to possibly build a huge bass trap, just not sure if all the effort will help or hurt since I'm not a sound engineer. (Bruce?)

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[FLATOUT]

Nice Mark!

Ugh you guys are going to make me spend money I don't need to be spending lol.

I will say this to anyone that is thinking about building a space like this, we use ours all the time. The kids, parents, and grandparents all enjoying watching sporting events, movies, and TV. Great use of a bonus room.

Andy

[ACRucrazy]

Great room Ron, really did the construction right, it takes dedication to spend that money and not just fill the space with a 110K worth of electronics. My room is dual purpose, mostly music for me though so everything is out and on wall so I can change things up as needed #becausehobby lol. Room is 16'x23'x8'-9' isolated, all dedicated 20A outlets, staggered stud 8" walls. There is a 65" TV behind the screen I'm thinking of moving to possibly build a huge bass trap, just not sure if all the effort will help or hurt since I'm not a sound engineer. (Bruce?)


Gotham G213, my favorite all time sub! Very nice!
Sonus Fabers & what looks like possibly an older (very good) Classe amp?

Nice room Mark!

[Bruce H.]

Once again, just an impressive attention to detail, Ron, and I can see others here have been doing great work as well!

The earlier pioneers of surround sound had a steep learning curve as the idea of "home theater" was born in the early 90's. Cinema sound was still horrible in the 80's, and acousticians like Tomlinson Hollman were needed to apply their knowledge of human hearing and acoustics to these venues so that the "new" sound engineered into movies could be reproduced in theaters, and then to the home. Lucas started it off in '83, and his was the Tomlinson Hollman eXperiment that revolutionized cimemas sound! Acoustics was my initial area of interest, and I used it to design high performance rooms where music and surround sound could be faithfully reproduced. I built a personal over the top music/theater room in my home in the mid-90's and clients of my custom home lighting design business forced me to build ones for them also!

I have a little test I use to demonstrate when I've got the room's acoustics just right. Maybe Mark or any of you other music buffs have achieved this as well to some extent. If you can play 2 channel stereo through just the main left and right speakers and it sounds like all the speakers are on that's a pretty good start! And if your front sound stage from just two speakers can position singers and instruments accurately from side to side and front to back of the recording stage then you've probably nailed it! And the aprt that would amaze most people is that you don't need to have ever more exotic equipment to do it, but the room does have to be right.

Great hobby, and thanks for the great thread Ron!

Bruce

[mjorgensen]

Gotham G213, my favorite all time sub! Very nice!
Sonus Fabers & what looks like possibly an older (very good) Classe amp?

Nice room Mark!

Thanks, I could not wait when the Gotham was released, had my order in long before they were released rumor has it that Shaq O' bought the first 5 for his system!

The monitors are Ushers Be-718's, Nuforce Pre amp, Earthquake Cinenova Grande, Oppo 105D and mix of Tara Labs cables and some Monster M series.

[mjorgensen]

Once again, just an impressive attention to detail, Ron, and I can see others here have been doing great work as well!

The earlier pioneers of surround sound had a steep learning curve as the idea of "home theater" was born in the early 90's. Cinema sound was still horrible in the 80's, and acousticians like Tomlinson Hollman were needed to apply their knowledge of human hearing and acoustics to these venues so that the "new" sound engineered into movies could be reproduced in theaters, and then to the home. Lucas started it off in '83, and his was the Tomlinson Hollman eXperiment that revolutionized cimemas sound! Acoustics was my initial area of interest, and I used it to design high performance rooms where music and surround sound could be faithfully reproduced. I built a personal over the top music/theater room in my home in the mid-90's and clients of my custom home lighting design business forced me to build ones for them also!

I have a little test I use to demonstrate when I've got the room's acoustics just right. Maybe Mark or any of you other music buffs have achieved this as well to some extent. If you can play 2 channel stereo through just the main left and right speakers and it sounds like all the speakers are on that's a pretty good start! And if your front sound stage from just two speakers can position singers and instruments accurately from side to side and front to back of the recording stage then you've probably nailed it! And the aprt that would amaze most people is that you don't need to have ever more exotic equipment to do it, but the room does have to be right.

Great hobby, and thanks for the great thread Ron!

Bruce


My room to a T Bruce, really turned the corner adding the ASC 16" tube traps in the rear, I have also added 1/2 stack at the second side reflection points and yes almost full surround out of 2 speakers. A great test is the Pink Floyd import surround SACD, if with just 2 channels it still sounds like you are in a dome of sound it really sounds incredible on full discrete 5.1. I only use the side ones for music though and just in rear for movies.

[ACRucrazy]

Thanks, I could not wait when the Gotham was released, had my order in long before they were released rumor has it that Shaq O' bought the first 5 for his system!

The monitors are Ushers Be-718's, Nuforce Pre amp, Earthquake Cinenova Grande, Oppo 105D and mix of Tara Labs cables and some Monster M series.

Oh Ushers, sweet! I saw the Oppo and Monster, but couldn't quite make out the Earthquake. Very nice space! I could see sitting there for hours listening to music.

[Bruce H.]

Ahhh...Pink Floyd playing in a great room!!!

Ron,
Forgot to mention, I've shortened my front row viewing distance/FOV where the money seat is dead center and at the "Golden Rule" distance for 2 channel music, and I can always use the second row if I find the front too close at times if I swap in a widesceen at some point.

[IndyRon]

Gimme that Gotham!

Love the room Mark! Excellent job all the way around. One thing I've learned through all of this is, if you think you have high dollar home theater equipment, go talk to some of the true 2 channel music audiophiles! Some of those guys (for better or worse) have spent more on power cords than I spend on individual speakers or components. The sky is the limit in that field.

Bruce, the projector throw depends on a lot of things. Of course the screen material and characteristics and as you stated the light output of the projector. In my case I had a gain greater than 1 on the screen and a screen material that was sensitive to hot spotting with close throw distances combined with a relative light cannon in the Sony VPL 600ES so I wanted it as far back as possible. YMMV.

[Bruce H.]

Bruce, the projector throw depends on a lot of things. Of course the screen material and characteristics and as you stated the light output of the projector. In my case I had a gain greater than 1 on the screen and a screen material that was sensitive to hot spotting with close throw distances combined with a relative light cannon in the Sony VPL 600ES so I wanted it as far back as possible. YMMV.

Okay, that makes sense. Thx.

[Vprbite]

It seems to me, a musician, that many of these rooms would work for recording also. Because you have, purposefully, eliminated echoes. I could be wrong, but I see that.

Again, so jealous. Obviously it's a labor of love but it shows. Impressive stuff, guys.

[IndyRon]

It seems to me, a musician, that many of these rooms would work for recording also. Because you have, purposefully, eliminated echoes. I could be wrong, but I see that.

Again, so jealous. Obviously it's a labor of love but it shows. Impressive stuff, guys.

You are exactly right!

[Vprbite]

You are exactly right!


About which part?

[Sam Goldfarb]

I may have one of the oldest home theaters still operating. I grew up in the theater business, among other businesses, and put together a state of the art system back in 1993. I used a Runco Cinema Pro Projector, Denon amps, Pioneer Components, including Laser Disc, 100 CD player and DVD/VHS Player. My front three speakers are Infinity Studio Monitors with 15" woofers, two 4.5" mids and a 1" tweeter. A Velodyne 15" servo powered sub and then two sets of 3 way side and rear speakers with 8" woofers. A 100" Motorized Stewart SR1 glass beaded screen complete the setup. Over the years I have replaced a couple components and a few speakers. All of the speakers are mostly hidden from view. I spaced the viewing wall about 3' out from the actual wall to allow the speakers to be "flush" with the screen and the sub is off to one side and also hidden. The electronics are mounted into flush shelves on either side of the screen and a couple of wall sconce lights that can be set to come on, off and dim, as the screen comes down are mounted to the upper corners of the viewing wall which is painted a flat dark gray color. The main room is about 15' wide by 66 feet long and the screen can be viewed from anywhere and heard very well with moderate sound levels or you can be immersed in a front row "live" concert experience simply by turning up the volume a bit. With over 1000 watts and very efficient speakers it's easy to get too loud for most people!

I have a few musical instruments (Mostly guitars, including a 1952 Les Paul prototype that is painted gold all over) and they do sound very good in the room. As a precaution I created sound baffles and insulated all the walls and ceiling well with sound deadening insulation. A lot of overstuffed chairs, carpet and wall hangings reduce any echo effect to zero. The special effects built into the Denon AV amps are unbelievable with presets for things like stadium, Dolby, church, rock concert, live etc. and the ability to adjust the timing of the rear speakers.

I realize that the progress made in the industry have eclipsed most of my equipment capabilities, but as my eyesight and hearing have suffered the tests of time, I don't know that I could see or hear the improvements or justify the costs to update. Even though the costs on many components have come down considerably!

I get some really nice industry books(I still own a wholesale electronics distribution company) that are full of new trends and feature tests on home theater and automation equipment. Visit cepro.com and livesoundint.com, both have awesome magazines available, usually for free, for those interested in the subjects.

[IndyRon]

Sam, that is pretty cool. Its a tough hobby because the cutting edge is always such a moving target. Early beta max and HD-DVD adopters learned that the hard way. I think you'd definitely perceive a noticeable difference by upgrading your setup...now whether its worth that money, I'm with you on that one...if you are happy with what you have then its probably not.

Regarding the chairs/carpet absorbing to any significant degree, a lot of information has come out on the topic in the past 20 years. Its a pandoras box though, with that information, comes spending $ so better to not dig too deep :)

[mjorgensen]

Sam, that is pretty cool. Its a tough hobby because the cutting edge is always such a moving target. Early beta max and HD-DVD adopters learned that the hard way. I think you'd definitely perceive a noticeable difference by upgrading your setup...now whether its worth that money, I'm with you on that one...if you are happy with what you have then its probably not.

Regarding the chairs/carpet absorbing to any significant degree, a lot of information has come out on the topic in the past 20 years. Its a pandoras box though, with that information, comes spending $ so better to not dig too deep :)

Ain't that the truth! This 65" is built into the wall behind my screen.
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$9900 new! for sale $100 you haul out LOL.

[Vprbite]

Ain't that the truth! This 65" is built into the wall behind my screen.
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$9900 new! for sale $100 you haul out LOL.

Hey, it's still lighter than a tube tv. I had a 35" that weighed 300lbs in 2001.

[Bruce H.]

What are you guys using for A/V and lighting control and automation?


I may have one of the oldest home theaters still operating. I grew up in the theater business, among other businesses, and put together a state of the art system back in 1993. I used a Runco Cinema Pro Projector, Denon amps, Pioneer Components, including Laser Disc, 100 CD player and DVD/VHS Player. My front three speakers are Infinity Studio Monitors with 15" woofers, two 4.5" mids and a 1" tweeter. A Velodyne 15" servo powered sub and then two sets of 3 way side and rear speakers with 8" woofers. A 100" Motorized Stewart SR1 glass beaded screen complete the setup. Over the years I have replaced a couple components and a few speakers. All of the speakers are mostly hidden from view. I spaced the viewing wall about 3' out from the actual wall to allow the speakers to be "flush" with the screen and the sub is off to one side and also hidden. The electronics are mounted into flush shelves on either side of the screen and a couple of wall sconce lights that can be set to come on, off and dim, as the screen comes down are mounted to the upper corners of the viewing wall which is painted a flat dark gray color. The main room is about 15' wide by 66 feet long and the screen can be viewed from anywhere and heard very well with moderate sound levels or you can be immersed in a front row "live" concert experience simply by turning up the volume a bit. With over 1000 watts and very efficient speakers it's easy to get too loud for most people!

Sam, I think yours would be one of the earliest, at least with front projection and that level of sophistication. That Runco was the king, and astronomical money back then. I moved my theater equipment to another home where I've been setting it up over the last few weeks, and was looking at my Pioneer LD and wondering whether I'd hook it up again just for fun. I mostly used it and the Video Essentials disc for ISF calibration, and to demo my system with the Twister film on LD. The sound effects in that movie used to terrify my wife, no matter where she was in the house! That might be the perfect acid test for the new system's performance!

[mjorgensen]

What are you guys using for A/V and lighting control and automation?



Sam, I think yours would be one of the earliest, at least with front projection and that level of sophistication. That Runco was the king, and astronomical money back then. I moved my theater equipment to another home where I've been setting it up over the last few weeks, and was looking at my Pioneer LD and wondering whether I'd hook it up again just for fun. I mostly used it and the Video Essentials disc for ISF calibration, and to demo my system with the Twister film on LD. The sound effects in that movie used to terrify my wife, no matter where she was in the house! That might be the perfect acid test for the new system's performance!


Feet and fingers here LOL.

[Sam Goldfarb]

I used Denon A/V equipment and X-10 lighting stuff, ancient technology that allows lights and other electrical components to be turned on/off, programmed and dimmed with hand held remotes or wired consoles. The only requirement is that all be on the same electrical system and transformer. I have units inside and outside my house that are 500'+ apart that can be controlled with a hand held remote. I also have consoles programmed that turn lights on and off on schedules. It's commonly called line carrier technology. I spent many years in the security/intercom/phone industry as an installing dealer, monitoring center and wholesale distributor. I got great deals on all my home theater components. One time the Runco took a crap in a power surge and my insurance adjuster almost blew a gasket when she found that my replacement cost policy might have to fork over $20K for a new Runco projector. I advocated a "repair" instead and it took them almost 6 months to "fix" it, long story! It ended up costing them about $1000 to repair it and another $1000 for a tech to hang it back on the ceiling and they ate my deductible after I filed a complaint with the Ohio Insurance Board. Eventually they were no longer "On my side" and I'm now in "good hands"!

I also have a similar setup in my great room with a Mitsubishi 65" Rear Projection TV, Denon AVR and DCM TimeFrame speakers, Klipsch Center and Infinity surrounds and Velodyn powered sub.

[IndyRon]

http://www.universalremote.com/ for control of everything in conjunction with http://www.lutron.com/en-US/Products/Pages/SingleRoomControls/GrafikEyeQS/Overview.aspx for lighting.

[Bruce H.]

The X-10 power line carrier technology that Sam referred to is really well suited for home theater use. I use a PCS Scenemaster lighting control system (Google for new ownership) with lighting scenes that are activated when using A/V remotes. I have "conversation", "pre-movie/music listening", "intermission", and "movie/lights off" scenes that are initiated by pressing buttons on infrared remotes, for instance with play, pause and stop buttons on the DVD remote activating the appropriate lighting scene. I also have 4 unused buttons on the pre/pro remote dedicated to the individual scenes so they can be activated independent of equipment use.

Basically you replace your light switches with a special one(s) that you program for your choice of scenes, and with the different illumination levels and ramp up/down rates that you want. There's a IR signal receiver module that is programmed to convert any chosen signal to a a power line signal that is then put onto your household wiring, which then finds and operates the special light switches. In my case I have 4 switches controlling various pot lighting circuits. There are numerous other ways to expand the system including the use of modules that simply plug into any 110V wall receptacles to control things like table lamps or anything else with a cord.

Lighting control really adds to the WOW Factor when the room's lighting magically adjusts by itself, especially when it slowly fades to fully off when the movie starts!

[Patgilm]

http://www.universalremote.com/ for control of everything in conjunction with http://www.lutron.com/en-US/Products/Pages/SingleRoomControls/GrafikEyeQS/Overview.aspx for lighting.

I use the same equipment. Good thing about URC is that some dealers will give you access to the programming software so you can do all the programming yourself which isn't too hard once you get the hang of it.

[ssgsnake]

Look Élan g for a controller works awesome can control just about any thing out there

[Vprbite]

Feet and fingers here LOL.

You get out of your chair? What are you, European??? Id go full costanza and have a cooler right in the chair.

[urchin]

After reading this and seeing this image, I unfortunately now I know what I'm missing...well done, very well done.

[ttrentt]

3048230483

I am slowly getting my room up to viewing. I am more of an audio guy, so the room is setup for 2 channel, with movies optional. I will post pics of the room when its finally done. The room is very odd, its about 20x22 with a ceiling height of only 70 inches. Used to be a storage room. However, I wanted to make the largest screen that I could -- so I set it up that it covers an entire height of an 8 foot wall. Screen is approx. 14ft diagonal. As for speakers, up front are some B&M DM3000s for mains -- everything else was pieced together. More pics soon...

[Bruce H.]

Geez that's a huge screen...well done!

[IndyRon]

Just to update the thread, the family and I recently moved to a new home that will be hopefully our last until retirement and downsizing. I have an unfinished space in this basement that I'm going to build my 2nd home theater in. Making a few aesthetic and acoustic improvements based on what I've learned from the last one. Stay tuned for pics! This one will likely be a 2.35:1 screen as we found we mainly just watched movies, not much TV.

[Bruce H.]

What the heck Ron...how could you? That was an incredible room! I just don't approve of that decision at all....unless the new room is going to be even better???

Did you sell the home with most of the theater equipment? Thinking that subwoofer was probably too large to move.

I've been working on mine for the last couple of weeks in earnest. It always comes down to room acoustics and that's where the focus is now.

Looking forward to hearing details of the new one!

Bruce

[IndyRon]

What the heck Ron...how could you? That was an incredible room! I just don't approve of that decision at all....unless the new room is going to be even better???

Did you sell the home with most of the theater equipment? Thinking that subwoofer was probably too large to move.

I've been working on mine for the last couple of weeks in earnest. It always comes down to room acoustics and that's where the focus is now.

Looking forward to hearing details of the new one!

Bruce

Bruce, I drove round trip to work over 2 hrs for a year partly because we loved the space and time together so much. We haven't gone to a commercial theater in about 3 years now and I'm so spoiled that I'll never go back.

This time around, I hired a company called Acoustic Frontiers to help me with room modes below 150hz and sub placement, decay times, and ultimately DSP/equalization post-construction. The curse of having that one huge sub was that bass response from seat to seat varied quite a bit. I'm likely employing 4 separate high powered sealed subs to counteract that and also expanding the Crowson Tactile Actuators to include all 7 seats for <20Hz content.

The rest of it I'm doing myself. I've purchased a larger 2 channel McIntosh amp for the front mains and 2 channel listening and using 2 7-channel Mac's for the rest of the atmos. Outside that, it will be mostly aesthetic...wife wants a starfield ceiling with shooting stars. I did take the sub with me. The sale of the old house was complicated by the new owners not wanting to pay for the contents of the room...they don't understand the quality and cost of the componentry so I changed it all out for best buy Polk audio equipment and an older 1080p projector I had laying around and am reusing a fair amt of the electronics and speakers in the new one.

Please post pictures of yours once you get it done!

[Bruce H.]

Yes, it can be tough to recoup the theater investment when selling unless you really have the right buyer that understands and wants it. When we sold our last home I was able to remove everything and return it to a family room ready for new owners big screen tv and stereo or surround system.

Room modes are always a dominant problem, smaller rooms being worse, and the main reason I encouraged you to expand your last room as much as possible. Larger rooms have more modes and they tend to be more evenly distributed which masks the intensity of any one individual mode that could otherwise stand out as being offensive. The actual modal frequencies and locations within a rectangular room can be rather easily calculated and plotted but not so easy in an irregular shaped room or one with skewed walls.

You can NEVER eliminate modes and you'll already know the things you can do to minimize their intensity and impact on the listener. Most important things...regardless of room size there's always going to be a drop off in deep bass centered between the front and rear walls so avoiding placing main seating in that center area is pretty important, with the smoothest response in a rectangular room being approx. 38% of room length back from the front wall. Bass is worse in the back half of the room so ideally you'd like to keep main seating in the front half, which in many cases also places the money seat in good relation to the main left and right speakers for ideal imaging (Golden Rule of equilateral triangle between listener and speakers).

A lot of the issues with achieving smooth bass is the "Boundary Effect" between main speakers and the front and side walls, and the same with subwoofer and walls, whereby reflected sound 180* out of phase cancels much of the speaker's output causing deep and broad notches in selected bass frequencies. Placing L,C,R speakers against or in the front wall reduces or eliminates the front wall reflections and the walls beside the speakers can be treated with absorption to eliminate or reduce those reflections. Equalization can't fix notches in bass because attempting to increase output at those frequencies also increases the strength of the cancelling reflection.

And subwoofer placement is critical as wherever you place it you know it's going to stimulate certain room modes. In a large room a single subwoofer in a front corner will simultaneously stimulate all room modes, producing a rather smooth response due to the fact the modes start at lower frequencies and their harmonics are so closely spaced that our ears can't detect the peaks and nulls. Small rooms are tough as I said earlier, and benefit from multiple subs to help smooth things out. My last theater required one sub located 25% of room length down the side wall and one centered on the back wall set at 180* out of phase.

And the last thing that helps is to place sufficient bass absorption, preferably at the rear of the room if that allows the seating to fit in the front half of the room. If you need to place large bass absorption in the front of the room for whatever reason which would cause the main speakers to be pushed out into the room consider building a baffle wall to place the speakers in or free standing speakers against to avoid that nasty boundary effect. If main seating has to be in the back half of the room place the money seat at a distance of 38% of room length in front of the back wall. Not bass related, but I always try to avoid main seating in the back half if at all possible because it's difficult to achieve a diffuse and enveloping surround field behind the listener when seated far back.

So hopefully you'll be able to incorporate as many of those considerations as possible and achieve the bass of your dreams!

Bruce