Gearing thoughts 3.73 vs stock, and mods, yea, I'm over thinking it.

[Dman]

I have 3 perf mods in mind: full exhaust with headers; tune; gears. Annnnnd, I'm over thinking this at this point I'm sure. Too giddy about the new car I think.

I was examining the idea of doing 3.73 gears in my gen5, and comparing the 3.55 effective ratios to the 3.73, to my gen4, and since I track it and it has 800+hp my GT500, which has max gear for the power IMO, it's a handful in 1, 2, 3, and 4th. Here's what I ended up with, I think.

2013 GTS 2008 SRT 2014 GT500
Gear Ratio Effective New Gear Ratio Effective Gear Ratio Effective
1 2.26 8.02 8.43 1 2.66 8.17 1 2.66 8.80
2 1.58 5.61 5.89 2 1.78 5.46 2 1.82 6.02
3 1.19 4.22 4.44 3 1.3 3.99 3 1.3 4.30
4 1 3.55 3.73 4 1 3.07 4 1 3.31
5 0.77 2.73 2.87 5 0.74 2.27 5 0.77 2.55
6 0.63 2.24 2.35 6 0.5 1.54 6 0.5 1.66
Final 3.55 Final 3.07 Final 3.31
New Gear 3.73

In comparing the 'New' of the GTS to the 'Effective' of the SRT & GT500, I thing it'd be great for 1st & 2nd gear, 3rd is getting pretty steep, but 5th and 6th look quite steep.

I'm thinking I should either do Belangers full system OR do 3.73 gears. I think if I do both, the exhaust noise will be too obnoxious on the highway, and I don't want to drive my wife of the car (pardon the pun), as she loves the vipers. Had recommendations from trusted folks on here to not do the gear swap but go for the Belangers and later a tune if I want to maximize it. So this would be passing on any gear change.

Figured I'd post for mass opinions, trying to decide today'ish so I can square away getting the work scheduled and what not, I'm having it done prior to delivery to me.

And sorry for seeming like a girl picking a dress, but, I'm kinda like a girl picking a dress. Do these headers make my butt look big?

EDIT - oh snap, that formatting didn't work, lol. Hmm.

[Steve M]

You'll have to look at the speeds you can achieve in each gear and compare that to the max speeds you'll see on the tracks you frequent...extra shifting doesn't have much appeal on the track, especially when you have a car with as much torque as a Viper does.

[rlhay2]

Gears are a torque multiplier. What are the end goals for the car?

I had a 1200rwhp GT500. When it was sub-800rwhp, the 3.73s were great!
But once it crested 800rwhp, it was a handful to drive and bordered on not being fun without: a prepped track, warm weather, proper tires, etc...

[Dman]

Primarily a street car, tooling around. I do have highways to navigate with the little lady to get to events or whatever. I normally do 4-5 trackdays with a car per yr, just for fun, and I'll go to a drag strip rental or two, but I've only been doing this with the GT500 & my bikes, I'd like to get back into it with the Viper. So fun, and as quick as I can be with simple bolt-on's, and capable of a trackday now & then, maybe even do some autoX this yr, I haven't done that in a decade.

[Dman]

The best advice so far has been to drive the car & see if I feel I want more gear, which is great advice, but I have the ability to get a trusted wrench on it for these mods during delivery, afterward delivery there's no one in my area I'd trust, so any mods after the fact will involve shipping in/out again, and I want to avoid that if I can. Trying to avoid regret one way or the other.

[ViperSmith]

Thank god isn't being delivered today :)

[Voice of Reason]

If 13-14 had a better 6th gear for highway it wouldn't even be a question for me, I'd do 3.73s for sure. But 80 on the highway is already turning some decent rpms, I'm not sure if I want to add more. For the 15s with the revised 6th gear ratio I say go for it.

[05Commemorative]

This would be my suggestion. I would also take to the track first as well. As Steve M mentions above, you don't want extra shifting and on most tracks, you are using 2nd-4th. you really don't want to be changing to require 5th unless really needed. Personally, after having mine now, I wish they would have went with 3:33's and then a shorter 1st gear so still quick on the road, but a little more mph in 4th for the straight.

In general though, you will be blown away of the transmission over your prior gen.


The best advice so far has been to drive the car & see if I feel I want more gear, which is great advice, but I have the ability to get a trusted wrench on it for these mods during delivery, afterward delivery there's no one in my area I'd trust, so any mods after the fact will involve shipping in/out again, and I want to avoid that if I can. Trying to avoid regret one way or the other.

[Nambo]

Maybe Mark will chime in as I know he has done 3.73 and 4.10 swaps in the Gen V and has driven them all so he can give you first hand knowledge. I would think for roll racing and street dominance the tuned Gen V with 3.73's would be an absolute beast. Based on my personal experience on a road course with a tuned Gen V I would think the 3.73's would be a handful to hook up and add extra shifting. Sliding and shifting may be your thing and if it is you may be real happy with the 3.73's! I know Mark likes them.

[VENOM V]

I just don't see a big enough difference between 3.55s and 3.73s to make it worth your while. 4.10s would be better but you'll lose cruise control.

I'm made the mistake of a small increase in rear end ratio on another car, it was hardly noticeable.

[rlhay2]

4.10s would be better but you'll lose cruise control.

Why would the cruise control no longer work?

[Dman]

Thanks guys.

Going with the 4.10 does kill cruise control, per Mark. As to why, I dunno, something with the computer, but 4.10 is just to much gear I know for me given the trans ratios in the gen5. I don't think you'd get down the 1/4 mile without having to hit 5th.

Based on input from JonB, Mark and others I've decided to wave off the gear swap. If no other reason then warranty issues, as it can be argued that a gear change is very impactful in putting more stress on everything in the drivetrain, and having no miles on the car, etc., the truly smart thing is to leave gears stock. Do the headers. Wait to see if Dodge releases a PCM or until I can't wait anymore and do the HP solution, once I have a couple thousand miles on her, etc.

Now I have to decide on full Belanger or just Headers and cats with stock cat back, as I'm hearing the full system might be annoyingly loud. Hmm.

[Steve M]

Why would the cruise control no longer work?

If I'm not mistaken, these cars use the ABS wheel sensors to calculate vehicle speed. I'm guessing with 4.10s, there'd be too large of a discrepancy between the vehicle speed and engine RPMs for a given gear. These systems have some flexibility to account for variances, but apparently not enough to cover a change to 4.10s. ABS would still work because it is only looking for a difference among the wheel speeds...cruise control needs to know a little more to keep things in check.

Again, just a guess...I'd be curious of Mark J. could shed some light on the subject.

[rlhay2]

Again, just a guess...I'd be curious of Mark J. could shed some light on the subject.

Thanks for the info! I've no intention of installing 4.10s. I was just curious and eager to learn as much as possible about this platform!

[SilveRT8]

If 13-14 had a better 6th gear for highway it wouldn't even be a question for me, I'd do 3.73s for sure. But 80 on the highway is already turning some decent rpms, I'm not sure if I want to add more. For the 15s with the revised 6th gear ratio I say go for it.

Do you know what's the gear ratio for the revised 6th gear in the 2015 vs the current 13-14 at 0.63 ?

[Steve M]

Do you know what's the gear ratio for the revised 6th gear in the 2015 vs the current 13-14 at 0.63 ?

Should be 0.50 from what I've read.

[mblgjr]

That's too bad they've gone back to a .5 gear on the 15's. Ridiculously useless.

As to your mods, I'd do headers+tune and stop there.

[Steve M]

That's too bad they've gone back to a .5 gear on the 15's. Ridiculously useless.

As to your mods, I'd do headers+tune and stop there.

With 3.55s out back, a 0.50 6th gear will be pretty nice IMO.

[Nine Ball]

I would rather have the 0.50 6th gear in my TA. I honestly don't like the highway rpm in the Gen V, because I cruise around 80. That gear change is only for the GT and GTS, btw. The SRT and the TA2.0 still get the racecar gear ratios ;)

[Dman]

If mine had .50 6th I'd probably pull the trigger on the 3.73s. But I agree, highway speed is too much RPM already.

[Steve M]

If mine had .50 6th I'd probably pull the trigger on the 3.73s. But I agree, highway speed is too much RPM already.

That's something that can be changed on any Viper with a TR-6060 - 5th and 6th gears can be changed independently of one another. Just takes $$$, and someone that knows their way around a TR-6060 since the entire transmission has to be pulled and torn completely apart.

[Dman]

That's something that can be changed on any Viper with a TR-6060 - 5th and 6th gears can be changed independently of one another. Just takes $$$, and someone that knows their way around a TR-6060 since the entire transmission has to be pulled and torn completely apart.


Yep. If I lived in Nebraska or Texas that's probably what I'd do, and not worry about anything, lol. But here in Maryland where Vipers are unicorns and Viper techs are invisible unicorns, I can't do anything remotely 'fancy'. Vette and Mustang gurus we got plenty, Vipers, nada.

[mjorgensen]

If I'm not mistaken, these cars use the ABS wheel sensors to calculate vehicle speed. I'm guessing with 4.10s, there'd be too large of a discrepancy between the vehicle speed and engine RPMs for a given gear. These systems have some flexibility to account for variances, but apparently not enough to cover a change to 4.10s. ABS would still work because it is only looking for a difference among the wheel speeds...cruise control needs to know a little more to keep things in check.

Again, just a guess...I'd be curious of Mark J. could shed some light on the subject.


Originally we were advised that the "wiggle room" for the calculation that lets the cruise work after a gear change would not be enough for the 4.10 and that the 3.73 was the better choice. We did it anyway and although the cruise does not work in the first 5 gears it does in fact work in 6th!

Things to note though;

Using a 4.10 gear for drag racing is a no-no. The steeper gear can deflect the housing enough to cause gear wine and pattern loss that can affect the life of the unit.

For roll racing it will be fine BUT the RPM in 2nd at 60mph is 4400 (good for the roll), with a 4.10 it is 5000, requiring a shift at 77mph instead of at 89mph with the 3.55... not so good. Using 3rd would not work either as the stock gear is 3300 and the 4.10 only gets you to 3700rpm.

BUT! If you want fun the 4.10 is FUN... and probably dangerous lol.

[Steve M]

Yep. If I lived in Nebraska or Texas that's probably what I'd do, and not worry about anything, lol. But here in Maryland where Vipers are unicorns and Viper techs are invisible unicorns, I can't do anything remotely 'fancy'. Vette and Mustang gurus we got plenty, Vipers, nada.

Can't say things are much better here where I live, so I just do everything myself. Fortunately for me, RPM transmissions is a hop, skip and a jump away in Indiana, and they could easily handle this type of transmission work (I'd pull it myself and drive it over to them). I've contemplated going to a 0.80 5th gear while keeping the 0.50 6th for cruising in my Gen 4, but just haven't felt like taking the car out of service for long enough to get it done.

[Jack B]

Steve

when I put the late G4 trans in my car, I had several discussions with John Donoto and he indicated none of the viper 6060's can have the gears changed. There is zero availability of gear sets. If you damage a gear or shaft, it means a new tranny. I will be talking with John next week, l will verify if that is still true



That's something that can be changed on any Viper with a TR-6060 - 5th and 6th gears can be changed independently of one another. Just takes $$$, and someone that knows their way around a TR-6060 since the entire transmission has to be pulled and torn completely apart.

[Steve M]

Steve

when I put the late G4 trans in my car, I had several discussions with John Donoto and he indicated none of the viper 6060's can have the gears changed. There is zero availability of gear sets. If you damage a gear or shaft, it means a new tranny. I will be talking with John next week, l will verify if that is still true

It's been around 2 years since I talked to RPM transmissions about it - they didn't mention about a lack of parts availability at the time, so perhaps something has changed since then. I'd be curious to see what he has to say.

[slitherv10]

Yep. If I lived in Nebraska or Texas that's probably what I'd do, and not worry about anything, lol. But here in Maryland where Vipers are unicorns and Viper techs are invisible unicorns, I can't do anything remotely 'fancy'. Vette and Mustang gurus we got plenty, Vipers, nada.

Ditto here in Toronto