Lapping day heat soak robs stock power now...how much worse once modded?

[Bruce H.]

The effects of heat soak on my stock Gen V are noticable on straightaways where top speed starts to fall off as I get the tires heated up and lap times drop. I haven't modified my airbox to lower intake air temps to hopefully prevent the ECU from dumping fuel and/or pull timing, but I suspect any of our available power mods will cause the ECU to pull power in those ways to help protect the engine. And if ECU tuning prevents those safeguards from intervening what does that mean for engine longevity. Which mods would be best for the engine, and where do you stop to safely handle the demands of aggressive lapping day use?

[FLATOUT]

Anytime your IAT's see above 86 degree's timeing is being pulled per an email I recently recieved from Dick Winkles.

[VENOM V]

Excellent question, I've been wondering that myself.

[Steve M]

And if ECU tuning prevents those safeguards from intervening what does that mean for engine longevity.

I'll address this portion: ECU tuning in no way, shape, or form prevents those safeguards from intervening. You absolutely can effectively defeat them, but you can also just make them slightly less prevalent, or even more restrictive than stock if you so desire. You have 100% full control of when and how much timing gets pulled based on IAT and ECT...it's as simple as adjusting numbers in two tables.

These tables to be exact (the first is timing pulled vs. inlet air temp, the second is vs. engine coolant temp):

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/HPTuners%20Viper/IATSparkAdjust_zps6823a3f5.jpg

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/HPTuners%20Viper/ECTSparkAdjust_zpsc8a5b046.jpg

The OEM tune is very conservative, and from what I can tell, it is to protect the catalytic converters. There's a cat overtemp algorithm that also pulls timing and dumps fuel to save the cats when certain thresholds are reached...again, you can leave that in place as-is or defeat it altogether.

The power decrease you're feeling is a direct result of the PCM adding fuel and pulling timing due to heat.

[FLATOUT]

Also the timing that gets pulled from 4,000-4,800 is done at peak torque to ward off detonation on 91 octane. If you are running better fuel you can pull it out.

[VENOM V]

So it seems that the bottom line is your tuner had better really understand this so that he doesn't de-tune the safeguards too aggressively.

[Steve M]

Also the timing that gets pulled from 4,000-4,800 is done at peak torque to ward off detonation on 91 octane. If you are running better fuel you can pull it out.

He's talking about this:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/HPTuners%20Viper/MainSpark_zps393ad755.jpg

That's the stock timing map (in cylinder airmass vs. RPM)...the valley you see in that map is timing pulled at peak torque, and then added back in as RPMs increase.

[FLATOUT]

Exactly, thanks Steve!


He's talking about this:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/HPTuners%20Viper/MainSpark_zps393ad755.jpg

That's the stock timing map (in cylinder airmass vs. RPM)...the valley you see in that map is timing pulled a peak torque, and then added back in as RPMs increase.

[FLATOUT]

So it seems that the bottom line is your tuner had better really understand this so that he doesn't de-tune the safeguards too aggressively.

Yes, but you have to also be honest about how the car is used, what fuel type, and so on. I might want a drag car setup a little different than I would a car that sees a lot of open road course racing.

[Steve M]

So it seems that the bottom line is your tuner had better really understand this so that he doesn't de-tune the safeguards too aggressively.

It isn't a matter of understanding so much as it is a matter of making sure your expectations are stated clearly up front...if you flog on your car on the race track on hot days and are worried about keeping the cats and engine in one piece, tell the tuner to leave the stock safeguards in place.

But that's the beauty of HPTuners...YOU own the software, and can alter the files any way you wish. Even though Torrie gave me a base tune to work from, I've since made hundreds of small tweaks to get everything just how I want it. Make a small change, flash the new tune to the car, and test it out. HPTuners also includes a very effective scanner that allows you to log data, so you can see exactly how hot the IAT/ECT get, as well as how much timing is being used.

I can assure you, if I take my car to a track event and the weather forecast is supposed to be even remotely hot, I'll have the OEM safeguards back in place to protect the engine/cats, but I'll know it is at the expense of power.

[VENOM V]

Yes, but you have to also be honest about how the car is used, what fuel type, and so on. I might want a drag car setup a little different than I would a car that sees a lot of open road course racing.


It isn't a matter of understanding so much as it is a matter of making sure your expectations are stated clearly up front...if you flog on your car on the race track on hot days and are worried about keeping the cats and engine in one piece, tell the tuner to leave the stock safeguards in place.

But that's the beauty of HPTuners...YOU own the software, and can alter the files any way you wish. Even though Torrie gave me a base tune to work from, I've since made hundreds of small tweaks to get everything just how I want it. Make a small change, flash the new tune to the car, and test it out. HPTuners also includes a very effective scanner that allows you to log data, so you can see exactly how hot the IAT/ECT get, as well as how much timing is being used.

I can assure you, if I take my car to a track event and the weather forecast is supposed to be even remotely hot, I'll have the OEM safeguards back in place to protect the engine/cats, but I'll know it is at the expense of power.

Good insights guys, thanks.

[Steve M]

For what it's worth, here's the stock 2013 timing table (the one shown above is the stock Gen 4 table):

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/HPTuners%20Viper/2013StockTimingTable_zps6f80165c.jpg

And here's the table I'm currently running in my own car:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/HPTuners%20Viper/SteveMTimingTable_zpsa6d02e58.jpg

I've done a lot of hand smoothing and massaging to get it just how I want it...note that I still have a dip in timing at peak torque, but it isn't nearly as pronounced. I have access to 93 octane gas all day long, and the car is 100% street driven at this point.

[Jack B]

Bruce

I should have read further, Steve gave all the answers


in the HPT software, there is a dramatic reduction in timing at a IAT of 95 deg. I will post the table tonight.

There is also timing pulled as coolant temp increases.

The one that is probably hurting you is the cat protect scheme, that changes the af from 12.5 to 9.5 after a accelerating, then, shifting.

[Vprbite]

Some really good i formation here. Good thread!

[1ststrike]

Thanks for the info!!

[Vprbite]

Bruce, is this the first you have seen this? I would think it would have come up already with all your track time. Especially being that it's cool now, I would think IATs are quite low.

[ViperSmith]

you need to do Jack B's mod

[VENOM V]

I notice it too. For example I was tracking with a McClaren and a 458 recently, and both of them would out-accelerate me coming out of a slow corner at Sonoma Raceway. I'd catch them later, but they had the advantage in the main straight. I'm sure a lot of other factors have to do with it such as gearing, but I sometimes feel like the Viper could be faster. I've been meaning to look at my top speeds lap by lap. My new Aim Solo DL will make that easy to log.

[Jack B]

That may be, however, the cat-protect scheme robs as much hp as the reduced timing. For those that track their cars, IMHO, the best mod you can do is to purchase the HPT package and turn off the cat-protect circuit, that is virtually free hp.


Bruce, is this the first you have seen this? I would think it would have come up already with all your track time. Especially being that it's cool now, I would think IATs are quite low.

[Bruce H.]

Thanks for all the responses and info.


Bruce, is this the first you have seen this? I would think it would have come up already with all your track time. Especially being that it's cool now, I would think IATs are quite low.

I noticed it long ago, and Ralph mentioned the heat soaking as well when we met at Mosport in July. I started thinking about it again after the Z06 experiencing it came to light and wondered how much worse it might become when modding for more power. I'd be happy with a minimal peak power gain over stock with a tune, but would get more excited if that tune would prevent a needless loss of power under track conditions.

[Steve M]

I noticed it long ago, and Ralph mentioned the heat soaking as well when we met at Mosport in July. I started thinking about it again after the Z06 experiencing it came to light and wondered how much worse it might become when modding for more power. I'd be happy with a minimal peak power gain over stock with a tune, but would get more excited if that tune would prevent a needless loss of power under track conditions.

I think getting rid of the cat overtemp protect scheme would be of benefit to you...in my experience, when you are at speed, the IAT is very close to ambient, so timing pulled due to a heat soaked IAT would not be as much of an issue for a road course car as it would for someone that drag races and has to creep through staging lanes.

[IndyRon]

Has anyone looked at the Timing retard in regards to IAT's and coolant temp on the Mopar PCM for the Gen 4? I'm curious if it is as aggressive. If so, a good reason to upgrade to the HPT software.

[Steve M]

Has anyone looked at the Timing retard in regards to IAT's and coolant temp on the Mopar PCM for the Gen 4? I'm curious if it is as aggressive. If so, a good reason to upgrade to the HPT software.

That's the problem with the rolling encryption...the PCMs can't actually be read, so no one knows what the Mopar PCM file looks like.

Honestly, I'd guess they only touched the timing tables and commanded AFR along with the other non-performance related stuff like disabling the rear O2 sensor codes and disabling skip shift.

[mjorgensen]

Has anyone looked at the Timing retard in regards to IAT's and coolant temp on the Mopar PCM for the Gen 4? I'm curious if it is as aggressive. If so, a good reason to upgrade to the HPT software.

I believe all of the cat protection was disabled in the Mopar PCM.

[VENOM V]

I believe all of the cat protection was disabled in the Mopar PCM.

What happens to the cat without that protection on a road course car?

[mjorgensen]

What happens to the cat without that protection on a road course car?

The cat protection is there it insure they last 100,000 miles, so you will shorten this life cycle probably by 1/2 or more. Using headers and aftermarket cats will probably do the same thing, but the aftermarket cats are a hell of a lot cheaper than factory ones LOL.

The fuel dump also cools the cylinder temps though so on the GenV it would be good to leave a little in the program. Here again this is probably more for longevity.

[Steve M]

What happens to the cat without that protection on a road course car?

I think Mark nailed it...I remember one of the engineers addressing the overly protective nature of the stock PCM, and they kept circling back to the possibility of "leaving the cats behind on the track," or something to that effect.

Again, for what it's worth, here are the values for the 2008-2010 Vipers:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/HPTuners%20Viper/2008-2010CatOvertempParameters_zps416b6cab.jpg

Compared to the values for the 2013 Vipers:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/HPTuners%20Viper/2013CatOvertempParameters_zps2a1c239d.jpg

Clearly more restrictive on the 2013+ cars, and I'm guessing it has everything to do with the EPA and the 8 year, 100,000 mile warranty that cats must live through before the manufacturer can wash their hands of having to replace them under warranty.

You'll have to do some soul searching here...tuning your car will almost certainly void your powertrain warranty, so you'll have to weigh that vs. the potential benefit at the track. At this point, I think there are plenty of people that have shown just how much power is left on the table with the stock tune, but what we don't know is the ultimate cost of making those changes. Will the stock cats shit the bed after 25,000 miles now? We won't know that for years most likely...

If you do decide to do this though, you could easily leave the stock file in place as is until you get to another day where this condition presents itself. Between runs, you could flash a new file to the PCM that alters these parameters and see if that makes the difference or not. If it doesn't, then you'll have to look elsewhere for the lost power (and it will likely be either the IAT or ECT timing modifiers). With my street driven car, I've set those thresholds sky high...I have little interest in preserving the stock cats, and I wouldn't be the least bit disappointed if I "had" to get some aftermarket high flows to replace them. Along with some headers. And probably some new mufflers too. Just don't tell my wife.

[allans]

All good info thanks. However, can any one quantify how much power and torque is lost by the factory timing and or cats protection programs? Allan

[mjorgensen]

All good info thanks. However, can any one quantify how much power and torque is lost by the factory timing and or cats protection programs? Allan

Probably 37 - 42 rwhp

[Bruce H.]

Thanks for all the information so far. It sounds like the stock engine tunes fuel and ignition maps are pretty much safely maxing out power under road course conditions lap after lap on 91 octane, and that power gains from a tune under these conditions are likely going to reduce that safety margin and longevity to some unknown extent. I can see doing a tune for street and drag race conditions is a risk-free no brainer, and with the Z06 pulling power on the track it appears their engine gurus have maxed out their power outputs as well.

It'll be interesting to see if and how the factory increases power on future Vipers...and to hear feedback from track rats who have tuned their Gen V's.

[Nambo]

Bruce,

Will let you know how the cars runs/performs at COTA with the tune. Mark and I will be doing some back to back sessions in the car so should be able to give you good feedback on operating conditions with the tune and if we need to dial it back any for safety concerns.

JD

[Bruce H.]

Bruce,

Will let you know how the cars runs/performs at COTA with the tune. Mark and I will be doing some back to back sessions in the car so should be able to give you good feedback on operating conditions with the tune and if we need to dial it back any for safety concerns.

JD

Awesome! Any feedback on the suspension would be appreciated as well. Good luck!

[Jack B]

Bruce

IMHO you need to eliminate the cat protect scheme, this will not hurt the engine, it might even help engine longevity. That will get you a noticeable increase in hp.


Thanks for all the information so far. It sounds like the stock engine tunes fuel and ignition maps are pretty much safely maxing out power under road course conditions lap after lap on 91 octane, and that power gains from a tune under these conditions are likely going to reduce that safety margin and longevity to some unknown extent. I can see doing a tune for street and drag race conditions is a risk-free no brainer, and with the Z06 pulling power on the track it appears their engine gurus have maxed out their power outputs as well.

It'll be interesting to see if and how the factory increases power on future Vipers...and to hear feedback from track rats who have tuned their Gen V's.

[mjorgensen]

Bruce,

Will let you know how the cars runs/performs at COTA with the tune. Mark and I will be doing some back to back sessions in the car so should be able to give you good feedback on operating conditions with the tune and if we need to dial it back any for safety concerns.

JD


^^^^ :dude3: Can't wait and thanks again JD (and the Manwell's) for letting me experience the work we have done with your GenV there is no doubt the power and suspension work will be incredible.

I also see no negatives in the Belanger/catback/tune if done within reason to gain back almost 60 rwhp It is well worth any risk to the HF cats that come with the Belangers. The factory cats will be fine sitting on the shelf and if you do toast the Belanger ones they are only about $400 a pair so chump change really for the gains at the track or street.

[Bruce H.]

Bruce

IMHO you need to eliminate the cat protect scheme, this will not hurt the engine, it might even help engine longevity. That will get you a noticeable increase in hp.

I think you are absolutely correct. The only downside is life of the stock cats as I'm not sure I could meet track noise level restrictions with headers and HF cats, and I do love putting the miles on my car!

[allans]

Mark, I have to stay below 98db so the Balangers are probably out. I would like to do the ECU mods. Maybe race cats too? Any suggestions? Thank you. Allan

[mjorgensen]

Mark, I have to stay below 98db so the Balangers are probably out. I would like to do the ECU mods. Maybe race cats too? Any suggestions? Thank you. Allan

Allan,
Every track measures sound different and with side exhaust it is hard to do anything. What levels are you getting now? The change in cats will make a bigger noise difference then Belanger's will, but you can't use stock cats with them obviously. Lou has been working on an extended tip that comes out flush with the sill, maybe you could do that then add a small turndown to deflect sound off the ground first to keep it more quiet?

[allans]

Mark, There are 6-8 "measuring points" around my home track. My car is measuring maybe 2-3 db below (just a guess) the 98 db level. I can feel it's not pulling out of slow (2nd gear) corners as it should. Maybe a tune along with a rear gear change would wake it up. Allan

[mjorgensen]

Mark, There are 6-8 "measuring points" around my home track. My car is measuring maybe 2-3 db below (just a guess) the 98 db level. I can feel it's not pulling out of slow (2nd gear) corners as it should. Maybe a tune along with a rear gear change would wake it up. Allan

Gear change is going to be totally dictated on end of straight speeds and rpm. A tune will help and help throttle response out of the corner also.

I would think that's a place to start, but I think if you can make a turndown work doing the headers is worth it especially off the corners. Is there another Viper guy around with headers and HF cats you could run a test lap with? If anything I perceive the Gen 5 to be smoother sounding then a Gen 4 even so if you can duplicate that you'll know you can change.

[Jack B]

Allen:

what tires are you running and what is the rpm in a slow 2nd gear corner?


Gear change is going to be totally dictated on end of straight speeds and rpm. A tune will help and help throttle response out of the corner also.

I would think that's a place to start, but I think if you can make a turndown work doing the headers is worth it especially off the corners. Is there another Viper guy around with headers and HF cats you could run a test lap with? If anything I perceive the Gen 5 to be smoother sounding then a Gen 4 even so if you can duplicate that you'll know you can change.

[allans]

Gear change is going to be totally dictated on end of straight speeds and rpm. A tune will help and help throttle response out of the corner also.

I would think that's a place to start, but I think if you can make a turndown work doing the headers is worth it especially off the corners. Is there another Viper guy around with headers and HF cats you could run a test lap with? If anything I perceive the Gen 5 to be smoother sounding then a Gen 4 even so if you can duplicate that you'll know you can change.

Mark, The turn downs won't work. A friend of mine (10 ACR, bought used from your store, with the full "B" system installed) was much to loud. Maybe some kind of "shorty" installed before the exhaust outlets would do it?

[allans]

Allen:

what tires are you running and what is the rpm in a slow 2nd gear corner?

Jack, I'm still running R6s. exiting at about 3500 RPM. Allan

[XSnake]

Mark, I have to stay below 98db so the Balangers are probably out. I would like to do the ECU mods. Maybe race cats too? Any suggestions? Thank you. Allan

If you are trying to stay under 98 for AMP don't, the track simply isn't worth it. Mod your car the way you want to. Go to Road Atlanta or Roebling instead. They are much better tracks to drive anyways. AMPs' kart track is better than there car track.

[allans]

If you are trying to stay under 98 for AMP don't, the track simply isn't worth it. Mod your car the way you want to. Go to Road Atlanta or Roebling instead. They are much better tracks to drive anyways. AMPs' kart track is better than there car track.

Matt, I'm a member at AMP and I can't beat the proximity and availability. I'm running in the 27s there, which is very quick for a "stock" production car. I also run at RA and VIR. Roebling is on my list. Thanks, Allan

[XSnake]

Matt, I'm a member at AMP and I can't beat the proximity and availability. I'm running in the 27s there, which is very quick for a "stock" production car. I also run at RA and VIR. Roebling is on my list. Thanks, Allan

I'm just a quality vs. quantity person. AMP isn't on my list, ever. Love RA and VIR

[Jack B]

That is where the stock pcm starts pulling timing, you would notice a big diff with a tune.


Jack, I'm still running R6s. exiting at about 3500 RPM. Allan

[allans]

Jack, Thank you for the info. Allan

[allans]

I'm just a quality vs. quantity person. AMP isn't on my list, ever. Love RA and VIR

Matt, just wondering if you have run AMP and what your times were with that "bullet" your driving. Of course RA and VIR are much better, but I can do both. Thanks, Allan

[mjorgensen]

Mark, The turn downs won't work. A friend of mine (10 ACR, bought used from your store, with the full "B" system installed) was much to loud. Maybe some kind of "shorty" installed before the exhaust outlets would do it?

Lou can spec a muffler in any length you want if you want to try that?

[Bruce H.]

Mark,

It could be very helpful if you were able to encourage Dodge to disclose the cause of the engine failures we're seeing, and hopefully these instances aren't just the tip of the iceberg. Many have little concern about minor engine mods and tune adversely affecting their engines, but not the smartest move if the engine might be faulty and warranty voided by the mods. I think Dodge needs to get out in front of this issue quickly before it becomes the big Viper news.

Bruce

[mjorgensen]

Mark,

It could be very helpful if you were able to encourage Dodge to disclose the cause of the engine failures we're seeing, and hopefully these instances aren't just the tip of the iceberg. Many have little concern about minor engine mods and tune adversely affecting their engines, but not the smartest move if the engine might be faulty and warranty voided by the mods. I think Dodge needs to get out in front of this issue quickly before it becomes the big Viper news.


Bruce

From what I have heard most of these claims have been from cars with low oil levels that were not kept in check or cars that were on the track when it happened, oil does not have to be as low at the track to see starvation as it would in a street driven only car. Maybe going to the Mobil1 15/50 is a better choice if you are tracking at all.

[VENOM V]

From what I have heard most of these claims have been from cars with low oil levels that were not kept in check or cars that were on the track when it happened, oil does not have to be as low at the track to see starvation as it would in a street driven only car. Maybe going to the Mobil1 15/50 is a better choice if you are tracking at all.

This. I have first-hand knowledge of two engine failures. They were both caused by low oil level. I'm talking 3+ quarts low.

People, for god's sake, check your oil and often!!! Especially if tracking. I have to admit that while I felt for the owners, I also feel for the manufacturers that often eat costs like this when it was caused by the negligence of the owner.

[swexlin]

So there isn't much "wiggle room" in these engines? Seems that it would take more than 2-3 quarts low, but then again, these are high-reving, performance engines.

[XSnake]

Also, all the gen 5's now have penzoil as oppose to Mobil. Call up Arrow and ask what oil they recommend for your motor...

[Steve M]

Also, all the gen 5's now have penzoil as oppose to Mobil. Call up Arrow and ask what oil they recommend for your motor...

Are you saying this because you have asked and already know the answer? I only ask because I run Pennzoil Ultra in my daily driver (in the 5w30 weight) due to some fantastic virgin oil analysis reports, but I've been reluctant to try the 0w40 variety (as opposed to the Mobil 1) due to reports that don't seem to be nearly as favorable with this particular formulation...not sure what changed when they started making it in 0w40, but it just doesn't seem to be quite as good as their lighter weight offerings. I was just curious if Arrow had an opinion on the issue...

[allans]

If you track, seems like its time to install a dry sump system. I think that was the only oiling system change to the Tudor Vipers. Good insurance. Mark, How difficult and expensive? Thanks, Allan

[mjorgensen]

If you track, seems like its time to install a dry sump system. I think that was the only oiling system change to the Tudor Vipers. Good insurance. Mark, How difficult and expensive? Thanks, Allan

I think if oil levels are kept in check and you use 15/50 for the track you don't need the considerable expense of a dry sump system. I can check on pricing but it's about $4500 if I remember right... I'll check into it tomorrow if someone else does not already have an answer.

[VENOM V]

If you track, seems like its time to install a dry sump system. I think that was the only oiling system change to the Tudor Vipers. Good insurance. Mark, How difficult and expensive? Thanks, Allan

Allan, my other track car's engine expired due to a goof in the build, I believe. When I had it rebuilt, I installed an Improved Racing oil pan baffle. I also put in an Aim data acquisition system to continuously monitor oil pressure which would dip should I get any starvation. Good news is no starvation, so the pan baffle works. I assume the Viper's oil system is designed at least as good or better than my Camaro's, so I'm not feeling the need for a dry sump system. I'll keep an eye on it at all the tracks but so it's ok at Laguna Seca and Buttonwillow.

Mark, does the Viper have some sort of a pan baffle or other improvement?

[V10LEE]

I think if oil levels are kept in check and you use 15/50 for the track you don't need the considerable expense of a dry sump system. I can check on pricing but it's about $4500 if I remember right... I'll check into it tomorrow if someone else does not already have an answer.





Allan, my other track car's engine expired due to a goof in the build, I believe. When I had it rebuilt, I installed an Improved Racing oil pan baffle. I also put in an Aim data acquisition system to continuously monitor oil pressure which would dip should I get any starvation. Good news is no starvation, so the pan baffle works. I assume the Viper's oil system is designed at least as good or better than my Camaro's, so I'm not feeling the need for a dry sump system. I'll keep an eye on it at all the tracks but so it's ok at Laguna Seca and Buttonwillow.

Mark, does the Viper have some sort of a pan baffle or other improvement?

This. No need for a dry sump system. Even on the Gen 4 ACR. Spoke to Dan Cragin about this before too..

[TrackAire]

This. I have first-hand knowledge of two engine failures. They were both caused by low oil level. I'm talking 3+ quarts low.

People, for god's sake, check your oil and often!!! Especially if tracking. I have to admit that while I felt for the owners, I also feel for the manufacturers that often eat costs like this when it was caused by the negligence of the owner.

My wife's Range Rover has something that I hated when we first got it....no dipstick!! It felt weird not to be able to check the oil the "old fashion" way.

But, touch the correct buttons on the engine menu computer and up pops the percentage of oil level on the vehicle information screen. Maybe this is the future.

I'm surprised the Gen 5 doesn't have this feature when you consider all the other technological features the car now has. My preference would be to have both options available.

[Snakebit10]

It would seem to make sense to have an oil level light, guage etc. This would protect the owner and mfg. Could one be added to the electronic guages?

Just saying that its easy to forget to check once or twice and sometimes thats all thats needed to have a problem develop. It would be great if they added an oil light or guage or some low oil warning system....

[Steve M]

Allan, my other track car's engine expired due to a goof in the build, I believe. When I had it rebuilt, I installed an Improved Racing oil pan baffle. I also put in an Aim data acquisition system to continuously monitor oil pressure which would dip should I get any starvation. Good news is no starvation, so the pan baffle works. I assume the Viper's oil system is designed at least as good or better than my Camaro's, so I'm not feeling the need for a dry sump system. I'll keep an eye on it at all the tracks but so it's ok at Laguna Seca and Buttonwillow.

Mark, does the Viper have some sort of a pan baffle or other improvement?

From what I can tell, the Gen 5 oil pan is the same as the one used in the Gen 4, which was an improvement over the Gen 3 system that was known for oil starvation during long sweepers. The swinging pick up tube design seemed to fix most issues (not sure if they improved the baffling as well), but I guess it can't pick up oil that isn't there because the engine ate it.

[XSnake]

If you track, seems like its time to install a dry sump system. I think that was the only oiling system change to the Tudor Vipers. Good insurance. Mark, How difficult and expensive? Thanks, Allan

I'm not sure Dailey has built one for a Gen 5 yet.

[mjorgensen]

I think if oil levels are kept in check and you use 15/50 for the track you don't need the considerable expense of a dry sump system. I can check on pricing but it's about $4500 if I remember right... I'll check into it tomorrow if someone else does not already have an answer.

"We have 3 different versions for the engine. Right Side, Left Side, under the pan. This depends on the customer needs

We do not sell the lines or the tanks as this is vehicle specific. We only sell the engine side of the set-up.

The engine parts are $5500, this includes Pan, Pump, Sprockets, Drive Pulley, Driven Pulley, and Belt. The belt stack-up is a function of the ACC. Drive arrangement."