Unleashed 2014 TA Viper Custom dyno tune = 28WHP/44WTQ

[tmcphail]

I purchased a 14 TA Viper Saturday #16 with this purpose in mind. I spent a good amount of time on the dyno today getting the car sorted out and the gains are quite good. Car had 400 miles on it at that time as well with 93 Octane in the tank. It was also 102 degrees in the shop.
Peak to peak HP gain 28WHP
Peak to Peak TQ Gain 44WTQ
Final numbers 584WHP / 539WTQ
6733

If you look at the individual HP/TQ graphs below you will see that the gains in the mid range are even greater.

4900 RPM it gained 56WHP / 66WTQ
6734

6735

6736

6737

[Shooter]

Hells ya. I'm getting it as soon as I do Headers & Corsa

[Nine Ball]

Wonderful results! Wow, almost 600 rwhp from just a tune....

Headers and ported heads are going to rock!

[Orange TA]

Awesome job!

Would it be possible to post the graph showing SAE corrected before and after numbers? Thanks!

[tmcphail]

Here you go.

6738

[XSnake]

Very nice!

[Orange TA]

Looking at your stock and tune only Gen IV results, I'm surprised the gen V only made as much power and torque as it did. Shouldn't it be making more both stock and tuned? The stock and tuned Gen IV both made more torque... I'm kind of bummed out about this since the Gen V is supposed to be an improvement versus the older Gen IV cars with +40 more HP stock vs stock. Thoughts?

http://www.unleashedtuning.com/content/view/72/17/

[cashcorn]

OUTSTANDING! Don't forget the motor only has 400 miles on it..

[Murpowa]

Awesome results! The ability to tune coupled with the new pricing announcement is really bringing life to the viper community.

[Shooter]

Looking at your stock and tune only Gen IV results, I'm surprised the gen V only made as much power and torque as it did. Shouldn't it be making more both stock and tuned? The stock and tuned Gen IV both made more torque... I'm kind of bummed out about this since the Gen V is supposed to be an improvement versus the older Gen IV cars with +40 more HP stock vs stock. Thoughts?

http://www.unleashedtuning.com/content/view/72/17/

Remember the Gen V's have 3:55's. It skews the HP reading on the Dyno compared to a Gen IV's 3.07. The Gen IV's are a true 1 to 1 ratio in fourth.

[tmcphail]

Key points between the 2 cars that will change output :

2010 3.07 gears also had Roe Highflow cats 6000 miles on the odo.
2014 3.55 gears completely stock exhaust system 400 miles on the odo.

[hova00]

Nice results.

Cant wait to see what the future holds for the Gen V Viper? heads, cams, blowers:D

[Orange TA]

On a Dynojet dyno I don't see how the 3.07 vs 3.55 difference could show up.

[Voice of Reason]

On a Dynojet dyno I don't see how the 3.07 vs 3.55 difference could show up.

They increase driveline parasitic loss.

I'm VERY excited about these results. The peak gains are nice, but what you're gaining in the middle is what I like most. I don't run to redline all that often, but 4.5k happens pretty frequently so the gains there will be very noticeable.

[Tiago]

awesome

[HANKFAN]

Sweet numbers. Glad to see the Gen V finally able to be tuned!

[tmcphail]

I could not agree with you more. This is a huge step in the right direction.

[FLATOUT]

I could not agree with you more. This is a huge step in the right direction.

HAHAHAHAHAHA WWHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHOOOOOOOOO! So awesome man! I have an idea for an awesome basic package that I think will get the car to 590-600 with this tune. BTW my car with 2000 miles on it made 556SAE so they do loosen up a bit I think.

Man I can't wait to get a tune on my car.

Well done Torrie.

[tmcphail]

Yeah given that I have had the car a grand total of 5 days would make it the equivalent of tight right now. My goal was to step up and provide initial function of the system. It works and follows command which is all that matters to me from a calibration perspective.

[Orange TA]

Very nice. Do you plan on adding headers and a catback and tuning for those as well? It seems the Belanger/Corsa combo is the only one that is a true bolt on for the Gen V.

[tmcphail]

My plan is to go much further past that :D

[Orange TA]

Well it would be nice to offer a tune only tune and then one for headers/exhaust for the masses. :)

[345s-bspinnin]

Great job on the tune. That mid-range improvement is great. +1

[tmcphail]

Well it would be nice to offer a tune only tune and then one for headers/exhaust for the masses. :)

That is already in place, beyond that I can build whatever is required. This is step one of many, my ability is quite broad.

[DPViper]

Sounds great. I'm eager to hear what gains you get with headers/exhaust....

[mjorgensen]

That is already in place, beyond that I can build whatever is required. This is step one of many, my ability is quite broad.

:drive: ^^^^^^^^

[Orange TA]

What's your best guess once a Corsa extreme and Belangers with no cats are added along with a re-tune on the same white TA/Dynojet? 610-620 RHWP?


That is already in place, beyond that I can build whatever is required. This is step one of many, my ability is quite broad.

[ACRucrazy]

This is good stuff for the V! Very nice!

[Stealth]

great job and thanks again for the gen 5 support!

the stock tune only will be very valuable for us in states like California where we cannot really run headers

do you think your results are impacted at all by the fact that you tuned for/ or used 93 octane gas? in California we have only 91 octane so would we see lesser gains?

thanks again for all of your efforts!

[tmcphail]

great job and thanks again for the gen 5 support!

the stock tune only will be very valuable for us in states like California where we cannot really run headers

do you think your results are impacted at all by the fact that you tuned for/ or used 93 octane gas? in California we have only 91 octane so would we see lesser gains?

thanks again for all of your efforts!

The higher the octane the further I can push advance and that increases power. 91 Octane would be similar output just slightly lower. Still superior to stock plus I can alter ETC function and set the rev limiter to 6800 as I did on mine so I can shift at a consistent 6500.

[Orange TA]

If it's tuned for 93 octane and you run a little 100 in the tank, will it automatically advance the timing a little and gain some power? Or do you have to tune for the specific octane?


The higher the octane the further I can push advance and that increases power. 91 Octane would be similar output just slightly lower. Still superior to stock plus I can alter ETC function and set the rev limiter to 6800 as I did on mine so I can shift at a consistent 6500.

[Nine Ball]

The higher the octane the further I can push advance and that increases power. 91 Octane would be similar output just slightly lower. Still superior to stock plus I can alter ETC function and set the rev limiter to 6800 as I did on mine so I can shift at a consistent 6799.

Fixed :)

[tmcphail]

What's your best guess once a Corsa extreme and Belangers with no cats are added along with a re-tune on the same white TA/Dynojet? 610-620 RHWP?

That seems plausible.

- - - Updated - - -


If it's tuned for 93 octane and you run a little 100 in the tank, will it automatically advance the timing a little and gain some power? Or do you have to tune for the specific octane?

It would be best to have a calibration with the advance designated for the fuel you intend on using.

[tmcphail]

Fixed :)

Thank you Tony, what was I thinking earlier :)

[MtnBiker]

Fixed :)

hahahaha. Exactly!

[Ripper]

Outstanding Job Torrie !!

[Steve M]

If it's tuned for 93 octane and you run a little 100 in the tank, will it automatically advance the timing a little and gain some power? Or do you have to tune for the specific octane?

Vipers have no way of knowing what kind of gas is in the tank...because these cars have to be able to run well in all 50 states, the factory calibration would have to account for 91 octane. Beyond that, the knock sensors can pull timing as they see fit...timing also gets pulled for things like IAT, ECT, MAT, etc. There's no high octane/low octane table available...it's just a main spark table and a bunch of modifiers.

You could quite easily have a 100 octane and a 93 (or 91) octane tune...you'd just have to upload the applicable tune based on what you put in the tank.

[bayviper]

They increase driveline parasitic loss.

I'm VERY excited about these results. The peak gains are nice, but what you're gaining in the middle is what I like most. I don't run to redline all that often, but 4.5k happens pretty frequently so the gains there will be very noticeable.

I totally agree, very nice!

[DPViper]

Probably dumb question.... Torrie: Will you sell off the shelf tunes that can be "loaded" into the car's computer or will you have to create separate tunes for each car based on data logging or dyno time? Thanks

[FrgMstr]

I could not agree with you more. This is a huge step in the right direction.

Now show me one with headers, no cats, exhaust.

I can honestly say this is the first time the Gen V has appealed at all to me in terms of actually purchasing one.

[tmcphail]

Vipers have no way of knowing what kind of gas is in the tank...because these cars have to be able to run well in all 50 states, the factory calibration would have to account for 91 octane. Beyond that, the knock sensors can pull timing as they see fit...timing also gets pulled for things like IAT, ECT, MAT, etc. There's no high octane/low octane table available...it's just a main spark table and a bunch of modifiers.

You could quite easily have a 100 octane and a 93 (or 91) octane tune...you'd just have to upload the applicable tune based on what you put in the tank.

That is quite accurate Steve, Other OEM control systems allow for knock sensor control in both directions. This controller allows subtractions when knock or perceived knock occurs. Its a functional safety net. In the end its best to have individual calibrations generated around the octane fuel you have access to and use.

[tmcphail]

Probably dumb question.... Torrie: Will you sell off the shelf tunes that can be "loaded" into the car's computer or will you have to create separate tunes for each car based on data logging or dyno time? Thanks

Anyone that purchases the HPTuners systems from me gets a custom tune I build for you. If you want to generate logs and submit them for review you can. I can also setup remote dyno tuning as well but costs are additional for that.

[tmcphail]

Now show me one with headers, no cats, exhaust.

I can honestly say this is the first time the Gen V has appealed at all to me in terms of actually purchasing one.

Working on it. What really altered my perception of the Gen5 was driving one. Once the price change hit along with ECU support all at once the business plan for me unfolded and here I am.

[tmcphail]

Nice work environment.

6765

[Orange TA]

Nice!

Is this further tweaking/tuning on the stock car or have you added new hardware?


Nice work environment.

6765

[tmcphail]

I am constantly working through revisions and verifying it. This shot was from the dyno the other day but I continue to work through things daily.

The HPTuners package is available with custom tune for $ 999.

Link :

http://www.unleashedtuning.com/content/view/72/17/

[Malu59RT]

So will you have a Twin Turbo solution soon...?

[tmcphail]

FI is coming up next for sure.

[Malu59RT]

FI is coming up next for sure.

HELL....YES!!!

I imagine people will soon discover that the Vipers are like the Ford GT's, making good power with a couple of turbo's slapped on with the factory motor. I am very excited to see what you do Torrie!

[tmcphail]

Me too, I am looking forward to the challenge of it. Well that and having a lot more power on tap :)

[Divexxtreme]

I'll be ordering mine soon. Outstanding job with this, Torrie.

[tmcphail]

Absolutely no problem.

[DPViper]

FI is coming up next for sure.

Do you plan on offering a complete kit or supporting others with the tuning? I had a Paxton on my Gen 3 and miss the FI power!

[tmcphail]

My core is calibration so that is exactly what I like to be involved within. I am in negotiations with other groups right now in regards to this and details will be revealed as they unfold.

[cashcorn]

NICE! I'm still a few months away.

[SilveRT8]

What's wrong with the Viper world ???
2 weeks ago we had nothing, and now $15,000 Rebates and Vouchers, Tomball's lowering caps, Flatout's gorgeous wheels, HPTuners ready for N/A with the possibility to go FI ???
Even the Naysayers are shutting up !!!
Good Good Vibrations !

[Murpowa]

Agreed. Great news all around

[tmcphail]

The HPTuners package is available with custom tune for $ 1099.

Link :

http://www.unleashedtuning.com/content/view/72/17/

[F2V]

Well done sir!

[FLATOUT]

The HPTuners package is available with custom tune for $ 999.

Link :

http://www.unleashedtuning.com/content/view/72/17/

Torrie I will be back from business travel at the end of this week to discuss some options.

Andy

[tmcphail]

Ok. Email me when you are ready. torrie@unleashedtuning.com

[tmcphail]

Also the package price is $1099. I was accidentally under HPTuners MAP policy pricing before and had to rectify my mistake.

[slowhatch]

Torrie I will be back from business travel at the end of this week to discuss some options.

Andy

Ummm... torrie can we get a package deal on some remote tuning for us both? :drive:

[tmcphail]

Yeah I can work that out.

[mjorgensen]

Results from our day at the dyno are here; https://www.facebook.com/pages/Woodhouse-Motorsports-Division/167968157736#!/pages/Woodhouse-Motorsports-Division/167968157736

[tmcphail]

Good job man!

[Voice of Reason]

It's nice to see Torrie's results being repeated on another car!

From a canned tune perspective how many things had to be changed on this new car? Meaning, did your tune from your car Torrie work out of the box, have too much timing/etc and result in knock retard, or did it have room on the table so you added timing/etc? I'm curious how consistent the two cars were.

I just retread Mark's FB post, this new car has headers w right?

[FLATOUT]

Ummm... torrie can we get a package deal on some remote tuning for us both? :drive:

Alex I'll email you tomorrow and we'll see what we can get setup.

[05Commemorative]

Mark, just so I make sure I read it correctly, you gained 65TQ and 60HP with the tune, headers and hi-flow cats?

When you used the stock tune from Torrie, what was the gain as compared to the tweaks you did after?

Just trying to get a baseline of the Tune on a stock system, then based upon the headers, and then the last tune for the headers.


Results from our day at the dyno are here; https://www.facebook.com/pages/Woodhouse-Motorsports-Division/167968157736#!/pages/Woodhouse-Motorsports-Division/167968157736

[tmcphail]

I build custom tunes for these applications. I did not use the exact calibration from my car due to the fact this vehicle was modified beyond mine. What I did was make Mark a great initial calibration that made good power and was totally safe. From there they opted to lean it out accordingly and build the rest of the curve while on the dyno. Everything worked out perfect on all sides.

[tmcphail]

Alex I'll email you tomorrow and we'll see what we can get setup.

Ready when you are

[HANKFAN]

Results from our day at the dyno are here; https://www.facebook.com/pages/Woodhouse-Motorsports-Division/167968157736#!/pages/Woodhouse-Motorsports-Division/167968157736

Simply Awesome!

[hova00]

This is good stuff! Cant wait to see some real world performance #'s for one of these modded Vipers. Maybe a roll race between a stock and modded one.

[cashcorn]

Outstanding! This is off the charts perfection. I'm so glad you came out with this HPTuner. I really did not want to see dodge come out with a canned pcm, like they did for the G4. Cheers!

[tmcphail]

Yeah this is a much better option and fully calibratable to each individual vehicle.

[Dman]

Torrie,

Would this then pass an OBD2 emissions scan?

Previous Mopar canned PCMs of wouldn't. With other cars, for ex. with my GT500, a custom tune is loaded from Lund, but I can drive into a MD emissions scan and the plug in will pass no problem.

Since this is a loaded tune like with an SCT I suppose, would it also pass on an OBD2 plug in test?

Thanks, and awesome work on this!

[Orange TA]

Does this car have a stock catback?


Results from our day at the dyno are here; https://www.facebook.com/pages/Woodhouse-Motorsports-Division/167968157736#!/pages/Woodhouse-Motorsports-Division/167968157736

[tmcphail]

Torrie,

Would this then pass an OBD2 emissions scan?

Previous Mopar canned PCMs of wouldn't. With other cars, for ex. with my GT500, a custom tune is loaded from Lund, but I can drive into a MD emissions scan and the plug in will pass no problem.

Since this is a loaded tune like with an SCT I suppose, would it also pass on an OBD2 plug in test?

Thanks, and awesome work on this!

I do not see why it would not as long as specific functions in regards to emissions testing are not disabled. You can see the tests complete in the HPTuners scanner as well.

[mjorgensen]

Mark, just so I make sure I read it correctly, you gained 65TQ and 60HP with the tune, headers and hi-flow cats?

When you used the stock tune from Torrie, what was the gain as compared to the tweaks you did after?

Just trying to get a baseline of the Tune on a stock system, then based upon the headers, and then the last tune for the headers.

Right out of the box we gained 26hp, but Torrie was just guessing on the safe side for the headers, I will share my findings with him and then he can tweak it even further I'm guessing. In the end though for the people just wanting the canned tune and no dyno time he will likely back off a tad from this to be safe for car to car variations.

[mjorgensen]

Does this car have a stock catback?

No it is a full Belanger system, although I doubt you would notice any power change from a cat back, they are all pretty much straight through designs. I have a dyno video someone took at the dyno and it sounds awesome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzvcmcquH5k&feature=youtu.be

[Simms]

So excited to see these results! Awesome guys!

[tmcphail]

Right out of the box we gained 26hp, but Torrie was just guessing on the safe side for the headers, I will share my findings with him and then he can tweak it even further I'm guessing. In the end though for the people just wanting the canned tune and no dyno time he will likely back off a tad from this to be safe for car to car variations.

Quite true.
Stock file 513WHP
My initial super safe base 541WHP
Final tune 560WHP

No doubt a bit of time and a few revisions you will see a repeatable outcome with this combination. Great work was done today from everyone involved.

[DPViper]

Torrie: Is the final 560WHP on a stock car or does it have headers? Trying to determine how much the headers help. Good work. Thanks

[mjorgensen]

The headers were 20 hp before the tune, but with the tune their worth increased so this gain is similar to overall gain the Gen4 had from the same.


Torrie: Is the final 560WHP on a stock car or does it have headers? Trying to determine how much the headers help. Good work. Thanks

[mblgjr]

Torrie: Is the final 560WHP on a stock car or does it have headers? Trying to determine how much the headers help. Good work. Thanks

Looking only at peak numbers; stock+tune gained 30rwhp, headers+tune was worth another 30 for approx 60 total.

Only about 15lb/ft gain in peak torque with the headers vs tune alone, but theres places under the curve that exceed that figure.

The best gain for the money is the tune right now.

[Steve M]

The best gain for the money is the tune right now.

Exactly, yet people are still reluctant to pull the trigger for whatever reason.

[mblgjr]

I think theres 2 lines of thinking.

1 group wants an OEM solution. Which is nonexistant.

And me; who is just waiting for a few baseline cars to get done. And maybe a few more parts choices to pop up.

One other question for Torrie: does the car have to go to the dealer to have the throttle relearn procedure performed? Thats my main hangup. I dont want to set foot in the dealer to have my window fixed, lol.






Exactly, yet people are still reluctant to pull the trigger for whatever reason.

[tmcphail]

For the most part it is advisable to get the throttle relearn done. But I can tell you that I have not done it on my car. I worked around it. And it should work on other vehicles the same way but I have only tested this on my own car.

[mjorgensen]

Looking only at peak numbers; stock+tune gained 30rwhp, headers+tune was worth another 30 for approx 60 total.

Only about 15lb/ft gain in peak torque with the headers vs tune alone, but theres places under the curve that exceed that figure.

The best gain for the money is the tune right now.

Dollar for dollar the tune is great and the stock tune is horrible compared to other years of cars so it shows bigger gains then the Gen4 PCM did. Belangers have never been a good "dyno" header, but those who have them can tell you how much more they are worth on the ground at the track or at the strip so I still see value if you want it all. I know when I drove back from the dyno this cars was a completely different animal.

[mblgjr]

Yes, the headers add considerable torque throughout the curve. Not just peak.

[Steve M]

Dollar for dollar the tune is great and the stock tune is horrible compared to other years of cars so it shows bigger gains then the Gen4 PCM did. Belangers have never been a good "dyno" header, but those who have them can tell you how much more they are worth on the ground at the track or at the strip so I still see value if you want it all. I know when I drove back from the dyno this cars was a completely different animal.

Having looked at both files side by side, the Gen 5 base tune is even more conservative than the Gen 4. I'm glad we are finally starting to see what can really be done with these cars...you should make a separate thread with the results to help spread the word.

[Dman]

Can you do headers and keep the stock cats & catback?

[Steve M]

I think theres 2 lines of thinking.

1 group wants an OEM solution. Which is nonexistant.

And me; who is just waiting for a few baseline cars to get done. And maybe a few more parts choices to pop up.

One other question for Torrie: does the car have to go to the dealer to have the throttle relearn procedure performed? Thats my main hangup. I dont want to set foot in the dealer to have my window fixed, lol.

Don't let the throttle relearn procedure scare you off...it is a requirement at this point, but it is painless. I talked about it in my HPTuners thread in the Gen 4 section...I too was a bit skittish, but it took all of about 10 minutes. They didn't even charge me for it actually.

As for the OEM solution, you can look at it a couple of ways - yes, it is aftermarket software, and the calibration is up to the end user or tuner, but the overall solution is as OEM as you can get since you are still using the stock computer. No worries about your gauges not working properly or other random problems that come from running a standalone or piggyback solution...everything functions exactly like it is supposed to from the factory.

[Steve M]

For the most part it is advisable to get the throttle relearn done. But I can tell you that I have not done it on my car. I worked around it. And it should work on other vehicles the same way but I have only tested this on my own car.

Did you just disconnect the battery and let it sit a while?

[tmcphail]

Did you just disconnect the battery and let it sit a while?

No that won't solve it. If it did no TB relearn would be needed.

[mjorgensen]

Can you do headers and keep the stock cats & catback?

With out chopping everything up and custom doing it, no, but the stock cat back is a yes. The Belangers and HF cats will not throw a CEL anyway so why not use them?

[mjorgensen]

Don't let the throttle relearn procedure scare you off...it is a requirement at this point, but it is painless. I talked about it in my HPTuners thread in the Gen 4 section...I too was a bit skittish, but it took all of about 10 minutes. They didn't even charge me for it actually.

As for the OEM solution, you can look at it a couple of ways - yes, it is aftermarket software, and the calibration is up to the end user or tuner, but the overall solution is as OEM as you can get since you are still using the stock computer. No worries about your gauges not working properly or other random problems that come from running a standalone or piggyback solution...everything functions exactly like it is supposed to from the factory.


I have not noticed anything malfunctioning on this car.

[Steve M]

I have not noticed anything malfunctioning on this car.

And I doubt that you ever will. Here's what can possibly happen if you try doing a Pectel on a Gen 5 (from this thread: http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/1994-Gen-V-TT-Build?p=79321&viewfull=1#post79321):


D3 Performance in Houston is doing the work. Pro EFI 128 unit with E85 Flex Fuel System

The old stuff was a Pectel Unit. The car ran, radio worked.

What really got my Goat was that I paid in FULL for a build that I was informed would only have small glitches ( CEL; Tach non- responsive) and EVERYTHING would be resolved within 1 month (30Days). After 45 days; I search for other options.

Here's the ongoing chore list I made starting the following morning of delivery.



A/C COMPRESSOR:
• SYSTEM WORKS FINE AT IDLE; BUT DISENGAGES COMPRESSOR CLUTCH AT RPM ABOVE IDLE SET RPM.
• SYSTEM BOGS ENGINE WHILE ENGAGED AND AT IDLE; ENGINE HAS A HARD LOPE DURING THIS TIME AND LOADS UP CYLINDERS. STRONG RAW FUEL ODOR
• NOTE: DROVE AFTER SITTING OVER NIGHT AND DID NOT TURN A/C DURING THE 30-45 MINUTE DRIVE; FUEL ODOR WAS MINIMAL.

TACHOMETER:
• RESPONDS FOR 2-4 SECONDS UPON START UP; LOCKS UP AT THIS POINT @ 1,000PRM

OIL TEMPERATURE GAUGE:
• AVG 203-208 DEGREES AFTER ½ THROTTLE PULLS ON HWY ( JUST NOTING)
• LEFT ENGINE AT IDLE FOR 2 MINUTES BEFORE PARKING; TEMP @ 204. RESTART TO MOVE INTO GARAGE 15 MINUTES LATER; HIGH TEMP LIGHT CAME ON WITH A READING OF 409. SHUT OFF AND RESTART. TEMP REGISTERED @ 179.

WATER TEMPERATURE GAUGE:
• AVG COOLING TEMP @ 188-199 DEGREES IN TOWN AND HWY. 203 DURING HALF THROTTLE PULLS ( JUST NOTING)

FUEL TUNING:
• NOTICED A STRONG ODOR OF RAW FUEL DURING WARM UP; IN TOWN, AND HIGHWAY DRIVING. EXHAUST EXIT WAS CLEAN WHEN PICKED UP. HEAVY EXHAUST RESIDUE HAS COATED THIS AREA.
• AT IDLE; BURPING THE THROTTLE; ENGINE STUMBLES SIMILAR TO A CARB ENGINE RUNNING ON THE FAT SIDE.
• HISS COMING FROM PASSENGER SIDE FUEL RAIL/INTAKE RUNNERS. I’M ASSUMING IT’S THE LARGER INJECTORS; SOUND LEVEL ON DRIVERS SIDE IS NOTICEABLY QUIETER.

CRUISE CONTROL:
• DISABLED; I’M SURE THIS IS DUE TO LIMP MODE/CEL SIMILAR TO ALL VEHICLES.



BOOST CONTROLLER:
• WHEN SELECTING HIGH BOOST LEVEL SOLENOID CYCLES RAPIDLY AND VERY LOUD


SRT APP:
• GAUGES WITHIN THE PERFORMANCE APP RELAY SOME INFORMATION. OTHER OPTIONS DO NOT RESPOND OR ARE INACCURATE

500 + MILES ON THE CAR SINCE PICKUP
First hard beating on the car since mods ( Viper VS Bike Video)
• FUEL RANGE, ECONOMY, ETC DOES NOT OPERATE
• HILL ASSIST DOES NOT OPERATE
MADE 2 HARD PULLS ON LOW SETTING SHIFTING AT APPROX 4,000-5,000 RPM(that's a guess) WITH TRACTION CONTROL IN SETTING 1. ¼ mile pulls from a stop.
AFTER IDLING FOR 3-4 MINUTES THE CAR WAS SHUT OFF FOR 20-30 MINUTES.
RESTART THE CAR AND NOTICED OIL PRESSURE WAS NOT REGISTERING AT ALL; ALONG WITH OIL TEMPERATURE READING IMPOSSIBLE NUMBERS (101- 183). UNTIL LOCKING UP @ 183.
THE TACH WAS PARTIALLY WORKING ALONG WITH THE OEM TRACTION CONTROL.
I SHUT THE ENGINE OFF AND ALLOWED THE SYSTEM TO RESET. I REPEATED THIS 5 TIMES BEFORE I RECEIVED SOME KIND OF OIL PRESSURE FEEDBACK.
ONCE I HAD OIL PRESSURE READINGS I HIT THE INTERSTATE AT HWY SPEED. THE TACH IS GOING NUTS ALONG WITH THE RED STRYKER SHIFT LIGHT AS THE TACH IS BOUNCING EVERYWHERE.(1-2 FLASHES A SECOND) I MANAGED TO MAINTAIN A STEADY 73 MPH IN 6TH GEAR AND THE TACH SETTLED DOWN TO 2100 RPM. I EXPERIMENTED AND TURNED THE A/C ON; WORKED LIKE A CHARM. APPLIED A SMALL AMOUNT OF THROTTLE TO AGGRAVATE THE TACH AND THE A/C SYSTEM WAS DISENGAGED.
THE OEM TRACTION CONTROL LIGHT WAS NOT PRESENT DURING THIS GLITCH. HOWEVER THE CEL, AND SERVICE THROTTLE BODY ALERT WERE ILLUMINATED.
THE PECTEL TRACTION UNIT IS TURNED TO “OFF” ALONG WITH LOW BOOST SETTING. I SLOWED TO 50 MPH AND ROLLED ONTO THE THROTTLE AND THE OEM TRACTION CONTROL SYSTEM ATTEMPTED TO MANGE THE LOSS OF TRACTION. TRACTION CONTROL LIGHT FLASHED ON THE DASH UNTIL TRACTION WAS RESTORED. I PUSHED THE OEM TRACTION CONTROL BUTTON AND WAS ABLE TO SELECT THE OEM LEVELS. LAUNCH CONTROL WAS AVAILABLE ALSO; BUT I DID NOT ATTEMPT THE FULL USE.
WHEN I PARKED THE CAR FOR THE NIGHT I CHECKED OVER EVERYTHING. I GAVE THE SYSTEM 1 HOUR AND CYCLED THE POWER. OIL TEMPERATURE WAS LOCKED @ 183 AS THE TRACTION SYSTEM WAS AVAILABLE.

*****Approx. 16 HOURS LATER I CYCLED THE POWER AGAIN. OIL TEMPERATURE WAS READING THE AMBIENT TEMPERATURE OF THE GARAGE (91). TRACTION CONTROL WAS STILL AVAILABLE. I DID NOT START THE CAR.

BATTERY LIGHT CAME ON SEVERAL TIMES THROUGH OUT THE NIGHT. TRIGGERING VOLTAGE : <13.4V & 14.4V <

Now I guess someone needs to step up to the plate and see if they can get an FI Gen 4/5 to run well with HPTuners...my bank account says no at the moment unfortunately.

[Dman]

With out chopping everything up and custom doing it, no, but the stock cat back is a yes. The Belangers and HF cats will not throw a CEL anyway so why not use them?

Gotcha, so you can do the Bel's with their HF cats, and bolt it up to the stock catback?

I'm looking at my budget needs, lol. I'm shopping cars and the only mods I think I'd "need" t consider are 3.73's, headers, and the tune for them. Then I should have face ripping perf I can use on the street, trackdays, and strip, and pass an OBDII plug in emissions test. And just like that, I got a chubby.

[mjorgensen]

Gotcha, so you can do the Bel's with their HF cats, and bolt it up to the stock catback?

I'm looking at my budget needs, lol. I'm shopping cars and the only mods I think I'd "need" t consider are 3.73's, headers, and the tune for them. Then I should have face ripping perf I can use on the street, trackdays, and strip, and pass an OBDII plug in emissions test. And just like that, I got a chubby.

Yes using the stock catback is fine, it is the most quiet option. I have 1 GenV in line for this setup and 4 more for the Belangers catback added. I think it is safe to say people are POUNCING!

[ViperSmith]

Gotta say, makes you wonder to all the people beating their chest "It should have had 700HP!!" - seems that EPA regs prevented SRT from getting there. I have no doubt Dick could have easily hit 700HP from this setup, they just simply can't do it and pass regulations.

So, isn't that SRT didn't want to crank out 700HP, they simply can't from the current engine layout and pass emissions...

At least thats my take on it all.

[Steve M]

Gotta say, makes you wonder to all the people beating their chest "It should have had 700HP!!" - seems that EPA regs prevented SRT from getting there. I have no doubt Dick could have easily hit 700HP from this setup, they just simply can't do it and pass regulations.

So, isn't that SRT didn't want to crank out 700HP, they simply can't from the current engine layout and pass emissions...

At least thats my take on it all.

Emissions standards are getting more stringent, and that ain't gonna get better with time. If the Viper is to have more power, it will have to go one of two ways: if you keep it NA, direction injection would help at least some to keep the emissions in check by allowing more fine tuning of the combustion process; otherwise, smaller displacement with forced induction is going to be the answer.

For being a big lump of a naturally aspirated engine, the Viper does quite well IMO.

[tmcphail]

yes using the stock catback is fine, it is the most quiet option. I have 1 genv in line for this setup and 4 more for the belangers catback added. I think it is safe to say people are pouncing!

:) :)

[mjorgensen]

Emissions standards are getting more stringent, and that ain't gonna get better with time. If the Viper is to have more power, it will have to go one of two ways: if you keep it NA, direction injection would help at least some to keep the emissions in check by allowing more fine tuning of the combustion process; otherwise, smaller displacement with forced induction is going to be the answer.

For being a big lump of a naturally aspirated engine, the Viper does quite well IMO.

The engine is not really bad when running emission wise, it gets hard with cold start performance and to keep the stock cats alive for 100K miles it takes that extra cooling fuel, that's where the issues get hard to balance. I don't think any Gen5 will have a problem passing a sniffer test and so far no problems with a plugin, with the Belanger system anyway.

I have been tols also that to do more then 700 right you will need larger fuel pump and 1/2" lines. at that point for safe wiring loads the harness will need to changed out also (at least at an OEM level) from then on heads cams etc... will take the Viper above and beyond so I'm anxious to see what Arrow will be offering.

[Steve M]

The engine is not really bad when running emission wise, it gets hard with cold start performance and to keep the stock cats alive for 100K miles it takes that extra cooling fuel, that's where the issues get hard to balance. I don't think any Gen5 will have a problem passing a sniffer test and so far no problems with a plugin, with the Belanger system anyway.

I have been tols also that to do more then 700 right you will need larger fuel pump and 1/2" lines. at that point for safe wiring loads the harness will need to changed out also (at least at an OEM level) from then on heads cams etc... will take the Viper above and beyond so I'm anxious to see what Arrow will be offering.

The last thing I read from the SRT engineers about the OEM calibration, they kept pointing at leaving cats behind on the track as the big issue when it came being more aggressive with the fueling/timing (they also mentioned possible engine damage, but they seemed more hung up on the catalytic converters). I'm sure corporate would be pretty miffed if Viper guys kept coming in to have their cats replaced under the federally mandated emissions warranty, hence the overly conservative tune.

What type of cats are you guys using on your Belanger installs? Metal matrix? Ceramic? Cell count?

[mjorgensen]

The last thing I read from the SRT engineers about the OEM calibration, they kept pointing at leaving cats behind on the track as the big issue when it came being more aggressive with the fueling/timing (they also mentioned possible engine damage, but they seemed more hung up on the catalytic converters). I'm sure corporate would be pretty miffed if Viper guys kept coming in to have their cats replaced under the federally mandated emissions warranty, hence the overly conservative tune.

What type of cats are you guys using on your Belanger installs? Metal matrix? Ceramic? Cell count?

They are an expensive California spec cat (this is why the GenV headers are more then the Gen4), beyond that Lou Belanger would need to answer. I know he upgraded to the very best cat he could get for the GenV project since he knew there was no tuning at that time and he did not want any CEL issues.

[Divexxtreme]

Yes using the stock catback is fine, it is the most quiet option. I have 1 GenV in line for this setup and 4 more for the Belangers catback added. I think it is safe to say people are POUNCING!

I'm one of those four. Can't wait.

[SilveRT8]

It would be nice to hear a comparo clip of Belanger headers with either of the 3 catbacks : Stock, Corsa and Belanger

[mjorgensen]

It would be nice to hear a comparo clip of Belanger headers with either of the 3 catbacks : Stock, Corsa and Belanger

I have a few different clips of all those options here;
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCnCD7oTbSkAruEF3-SJEmw

[Jack B]

I went to the strip Wed night, but, the race gods did not help. Here is how it went:

1. A medical emergencies closed staging down till 8:30.

2 at 8:15 the ambient air was at the dew point. It felt like it was raining.

3. Some of the faster cars packed up, it was a little dangerous.

4. I took a run and skated down the track in 1st, 2nd and 3rd, it finally found traction in 4th.

A. The car had a trap speed of 129 with a DA OF 1700. There is no doubt it would have trapped 132-134 on a dry track. This was using my own custom tune.

I do not think anyone has a higher trap speed with that DA. Ralph had 131 but, the DA was approx -1200?.

One observation was the factory clutch seemed to grip m uch better then last year, I think it finally bedded into the flywheel.

Lastly, the car has Balangers and the loudest version of the Corsa exhaust. I did not think it was a great run, but, at least six groups of people came over to ask about that "great' run. It must sound pretty decent.

[FLATOUT]

129mph at 1700 feet is great! Congrats Jack!




I went to the strip Wed night, but, the race gods did not help. Here is how it went:

1. A medical emergencies closed staging down till 8:30.

2 at 8:15 the ambient air was at the dew point. It felt like it was raining.

3. Some of the faster cars packed up, it was a little dangerous.

4. I took a run and skated down the track in 1st, 2nd and 3rd, it finally found traction in 4th.

A. The car had a trap speed of 129 with a DA OF 1700.

[tmcphail]

Thumbs up all around!

[Steve M]

I went to the strip Wed night, but, the race gods did not help. Here is how it went:

1. A medical emergencies closed staging down till 8:30.

2 at 8:15 the ambient air was at the dew point. It felt like it was raining.

3. Some of the faster cars packed up, it was a little dangerous.

4. I took a run and skated down the track in 1st, 2nd and 3rd, it finally found traction in 4th.

A. The car had a trap speed of 129 with a DA OF 1700. There is no doubt it would have trapped 132-134 on a dry track. This was using my own custom tune.

I do not think anyone has a higher trap speed with that DA. Ralph had 131 but, the DA was approx -1200?.

One observation was the factory clutch seemed to grip m uch better then last year, I think it finally bedded into the flywheel.

Lastly, the car has Balangers and the loudest version of the Corsa exhaust. I did not think it was a great run, but, at least six groups of people came over to ask about that "great' run. It must sound pretty decent.

I was about to send you an email to ask how it went, and although the conditions weren't perfect, it still sounds like you are getting it sorted. AFR fairly well in line now?

[SilveRT8]

I have a few different clips of all those options here;
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCnCD7oTbSkAruEF3-SJEmw

Thanks Mark! The full Belanger set-up gets my vote with lots of deep bass. Any comments on the drone ?
I dont mind loud but my stock manifolds with Corsa has a bit too much drone from 2000 to 2400 rpm, wich I would like to eliminate

[tmcphail]

I spent some time on the dyno today with the TA for further calibration testing and I also wanted to see what the K&N intake was good for. It has been installed on my vehicle and in use for all of the prior dyno graphs.

Run 6 original Calibration I created on 9/17/14 with K&N intake installed 584WHP/539WTQ
Run 11 new Calibration I created today with stock air box installed 586WHP/547WTQ
6865

Run 11 new Calibration with stock air box installed 586WHP/547WTQ
Run 12 new Calibration with K&N intake installed 598WHP/554WTQ
6866

Run 1 stock Calibration with K&N intake installed 556WHP/494WTQ
Run 12 New Calibration with K&N intake installed 598WHP/554WTQ
6867

I came real close to 600WHP and no matter how hard I tried she wouldn't do it. The car is very consistent and fun out on the road. Monitoring IAT's the K&N intake is about 7 degrees above ambient in motion where the stock one is 20-30. If you are sitting still for a long time the K&N will kreep up higher then the stock box but it drops right down when you are in motion again.

[Voice of Reason]

Very interesting about the K&N, wasn't the rumor that on previous gens it wasn't worth any gains?

And you should put on an underdrive pulley, I bet that bumps you up over 600.

[IndyRon]

I spent some time on the dyno today with the TA for further calibration testing and I also wanted to see what the K&N intake was good for. It has been installed on my vehicle and in use for all of the prior dyno graphs.

Run 6 original Calibration I created on 9/17/14 with K&N intake installed 584WHP/539WTQ
Run 11 new Calibration I created today with stock air box installed 586WHP/547WTQ
6865

Run 11 new Calibration with stock air box installed 586WHP/547WTQ
Run 12 new Calibration with K&N intake installed 598WHP/554WTQ
6866

Run 1 stock Calibration with K&N intake installed 556WHP/494WTQ
Run 12 New Calibration with K&N intake installed 598WHP/554WTQ
6867

I came real close to 600WHP and no matter how hard I tried she wouldn't do it. The car is very consistent and fun out on the road. Monitoring IAT's the K&N intake is about 7 degrees above ambient in motion where the stock one is 20-30. If you are sitting still for a long time the K&N will kreep up higher then the stock box but it drops right down when you are in motion again.

Based upon your results, it appears that the K&N is worth about 12rwhp/7rwtq over the factory airbox?

[tmcphail]

That was why I swapped it out and tested it today to verify if it was worth any sort of gain. I did pull 11, changed out the intake and made run 12.

[tmcphail]

Very interesting about the K&N, wasn't the rumor that on previous gens it wasn't worth any gains?

And you should put on an underdrive pulley, I bet that bumps you up over 600.

Probably letting the car break in more would do that too. But I am assembling the components to go FI next.

[Simms]

What's your thoughts on why the K&N shows lower IAT's?

Great results as usual! I'll be calling you once I get all my other parts.

[tmcphail]

Given the composition of the of the intake tubes I would have expected the opposite result but I had the stock box on all morning and it was a constant 20-30 above ambient, ride home with K&N about 7 above ambient. The only time it suffers from heat soak is sitting still then temps will rise higher then the stock box until you start moving.

[Murpowa]

Just an intake plus tuning time and you almost hit 600 whp? This thread gets better and better! Can't wait to see what some boost produces

[FLATOUT]

Now you guys know why we wanted to be able to tune these cars so bad :D. Incredible Torrie.

[Voice of Reason]

7* above ambient moving is absolutely amazing. In my 10k miles I've always had IAT as the reading in the center of the tach and I've never seen it close to that.

Damnit now I have to buy an intake when I do the tune. Lol.

[tmcphail]

7* above ambient moving is absolutely amazing. In my 10k miles I've always had IAT as the reading in the center of the tach and I've never seen it close to that.

Damnit now I have to buy an intake when I do the tune. Lol.
I can get one for you when you get to that point

[SilveRT8]

Hi Torrie
Wich K&N intake did you use ? The flat panel replacement with smooth tubes, or the K&N Typhoon with twin round filters and open under box ?

[tmcphail]

This one

6869

[SilveRT8]

Good ! Glad to see they improve power on the Gen5, as when I had this same system tested on my previous Gen4 I lost power big time on a back to back Dyno comparo.
Here is the Dyno sheet form my Gen4, only mods were Mopar PCM and Belanger headers with HF cats.
Note : Did not have the socks on for the dyno session

[tmcphail]

That was the exact opposite outcome for me yesterday.

[Jack B]

Could it be the pcm is pulling timing with the factory unit.What bothers me with the KN unit is that you no longer have partial forced air. The G5 is a true pressurized air box, in other words, an air box can only be tested at speed. i believe at a past SRT dyno session they said the car should be dynoed with the hood closed, otherwise the raised hood blocks air flow, was the hood up or down?


That was the exact opposite outcome for me yesterday.

[tmcphail]

Nope, no change in advance. No calibration change.

[F2V]

Exactly, yet people are still reluctant to pull the trigger for whatever reason.

I'll give you three quick ones that haven't been mentioned...maybe common sense to the racers, but there are hundreds of G5 lurkers here, who are not up to asking for concern of being dissed:

1: what is the effect on warranty
2: what is the effect when servicing a problem, plugging into dealer diagnostics
3: how to return to stock tune...and I'm sure there are many more.

[tmcphail]

You can return to stock at any time you wish. That is always advisable when taking the vehicle in for service. There should be no difference with the dealer tool used for diag before or after. As for an effect on warranty that I do not know.

[F2V]

With out chopping everything up and custom doing it, no, but the stock cat back is a yes. The Belangers and HF cats will not throw a CEL anyway so why not use them?

Not to mention the sound is awesome, sharp and extremely attention getting at throttle crack vs my 09 without headers n hf cats, but with Corsa exhaust...and without the beleaguring monotonous and tiresome heavy drone of the Corsa's, as on my 09. Ready for a tune to jump on the headers! Wanna see how much tuners can produce...so far, just the beginning.

[FLATOUT]

I think you'll see more people getting this done shortly. I will, only thing holding me up at the moment is a baby due in less than 4 weeks. Still going to start working with Torrie to get a Houston tunning day set up though.


Could it be the pcm is pulling timing with the factory unit.What bothers me with the KN unit is that you no longer have partial forced air. The G5 is a true pressurized air box, in other words, an air box can only be tested at speed. i believe at a past SRT dyno session they said the car should be dynoed with the hood closed, otherwise the raised hood blocks air flow, was the hood up or down?


I'll give you three quick ones that haven't been mentioned...maybe common sense to the racers, but there are hundreds of G5 lurkers here, who are not up to asking for concern of being dissed:

1: what is the effect on warranty
2: what is the effect when servicing a problem, plugging into dealer diagnostics
3: how to return to stock tune...and I'm sure there are many more.

[ViperSmith]

I think many were just waiting to see what it did before making the jump. With the results there should be zero issues now.

Oh, but the new complaint about the Gen V is now bad to buy one because of poor resale value. Lmao.

[mblgjr]

Im just giving a few folks time to get all the details worked out.

And really would like to see how the BBG headers perform. Both long and short.

Little surprised about the KN results.

[Simms]

I'm just waiting to get all my other parts I order for the custom tune.

[tmcphail]

I think what has been proven here is that if you want to modify your Viper and get peak power out of your combination, custom tuning is the best way to achieve that.

I can tell you with certainty that I wouldn't be doing what I am doing right now with my TA if HPTuners didn't make this a reality for all of us. I really enjoy driving this car more than I expected to and I can't wait to finalize and get into the next phase of the build. This to me is the fun part :D

[Steve M]

I'll give you three quick ones that haven't been mentioned...maybe common sense to the racers, but there are hundreds of G5 lurkers here, who are not up to asking for concern of being dissed:

1: what is the effect on warranty
2: what is the effect when servicing a problem, plugging into dealer diagnostics
3: how to return to stock tune...and I'm sure there are many more.

In order:

1. If you have concerns about warranty, this is not for you. Same could be said for the currently non-existent Mopar PCM...that doesn't mean your entire warranty is void, but anything that could be traced to the non-factory programming could be grounds to deny a warranty claim. Most OEMs implemented a way to know if the factory tune had been altered...I'm not sure if the Venom PCM has this feature in place or not.
2. No effect when servicing a problem. You have to do a throttle relearn with the factory wiTech after the first flash with HPTuners, which means that system has to be able to communicate with the PCM after modifying it. It connected to mine without an issue...the tech was also able to clear out any codes that had been stored.
3. Return to stock is as simple as opening the base tune file on your laptop and hitting "Write" with the HPTuners software. Takes about 60 seconds on a Gen 4 to write the file back to stock.

There are risks to modifying any vehicle, and the Viper is no different. My car has been out of warranty for quite some time, so I had no qualms about this. This ain't a modification for everyone, but if you want the most out of your Viper power-wise, this is the best bang for the buck, bar none. Torrie doesn't even have headers/exhaust on his car and is damn near to 600 RWHP. Show me another mod that will do that for the Gen 4/5 Vipers that is ~$1,000, and I'll buy it right now.

[tmcphail]

Well done Steve.

[F2V]

"If you have concerns..."

I don't have any concerns per my reply to you, but I know of a G5 owner that does (and assumed there are many others)...er, that did. :-)

[Voice of Reason]

Looking at the results from two cars in this thread (Torrie's and the one Mark posted about for his client) I see the following:

Tune + headers = gains of 65 Hp and 51 Tq
Tune + intake = gains of 42 Hp and 60 Tq

What we really need to see is a car with headers and intake to see if the intake gains stack on top of the header gains. Because if they don't a $500 intake seems to make a whole lot more sense than $4000 headers for everyone except those going for every last Hp.

[mjorgensen]

I think that we really need to see the different configurations at the track rather then the dyno before real conclusions are come to, hpefully Jack can get some good clean runs to see what headers and tune are worth. No doubt Torries numbers are impressive without headers, but a dyno is not a track and load changes things a bit. I have 3 more cars incoming for the tunes and headers or have already headers so it will be good to get some info on cars with some miles on them already to see what's real, one customer is also an avid drag racer so hopefully he can get some numbers also. I want to be able to get a relaible number that is safe enought to know it won't be coming back. I also know that if Torrie is really that close to 600rwhp then that is basically the limit of the stock fuel system in SRT's mind.

Thanks again Torrie for the help, I will have cars on the dyno 10/7 and 10/10 so I may need your help again those days. The car on the 10th may also be trying the K&N.

[tmcphail]

No problem, I'll put this down in the calender.

[mjorgensen]

No problem, I'll put this down in the calender.

Thanks Torrie, change it to the 8th and not the 7th sorry. ;-)

[tmcphail]

Done.

[Nine Ball]

Now the only reason to not buy a Gen V is because it has two cupholders. LOL

[ViperSmith]

Now the only reason to not buy a Gen V is because it has two cupholders. LOL

No Tony, remember it is because no one is able to trade one in now!

[Revolution]

I would like to see the intake tested on the track moving no point in making more power on a dyno but loosing power in the real world! Great work Torrie

[ViperTony]

Now the only reason to not buy a Gen V is because it has two cupholders. LOL

Actually, the cupholder can be removed. So, in fact, there's NO reason not to buy a GenV. :D

[Jack B]

Exactly, to remove a true sealed air box which provides some additional air flow at speed is highly debatable.

The reason the IAT comes down is that the outside air that used go into the engine now cools the outside of the IAT sensor, this gives you convective and conductive cooling of the sensor.


I would like to see the intake tested on the track moving no point in making more power on a dyno but loosing power in the real world! Great work Torrie

[tmcphail]

Given how the IAT sensor functions within the MAF I don't believe that air moving over the top of the sensor would impact it that much. Now given how I have the IAT timing table written the rising temps will not negatively impact advance with either intake in place.

[Jack B]

Torrie:

I understand that with HPT the IAT is no longer an issue. I was was just trying to explain why the IAT appears lower. It is a no win stance to think the KN box will run cooler at speed, the oem airbox flows true/sealed outside air, the KN is a mixture of warm under hood air and outside air.




Given how the IAT sensor functions within the MAF I don't believe that air moving over the top of the sensor would impact it that much. Now given how I have the IAT timing table written the rising temps will not negatively impact advance with either intake in place.

[tmcphail]

I work within the realm of the data I collected throughout the testing I performed and my internal knowledge of control system function.

But I agree the next validation test would be back to back runs at the track to see if MPH shifts in either direction.

[Jack B]

You did not collect true IAT at speed nor did you collect hp at speed. At the end of the 1/4 my IAT is the same as ambient - that is real world. Please do not take offense, I am a numbers person also and have data logged vipers for over ten years, in addition I work in the realm of thermodynamics.


I work within the realm of the data I collected throughout the testing I performed and my internal knowledge of control system function.

[Voice of Reason]

Torrie how do your IATs look at highway speeds cruising? I've noticed my delta is lower when ambient is lower so could you report ambient and what the IAT is reading?

Thanks!

[tmcphail]

20 above ambient on the highway with the stock airbox and 7 above with the K&N intake in place cruising at 80. 85 degrees out that day.

[FLATOUT]

20 above ambient on the highway with the stock airbox and 7 above with the K&N intake in place cruising at 80. 85 degrees out that day.

Interesting, and good to know.

[Voice of Reason]

Interesting, and good to know.

It's freaking phenomenonal is what it is! I wrapped the airbox in my 13 and never saw better than 14-16 over. I'll suffer through with a "non true sealed airbox" with 7* over ambient air at highway speeds and 12 extra Hp :)

[mblgjr]

Reason id like to know is "why" the KN tray is showing cooler? Less surface area of the air tray? Different thermal conductivity of the plastics? Bc it would seem like the oem sealed box would ultimately win.

[Voice of Reason]

You know...our beloved GTS-R and GT3-R cars don't have sealed airboxes like our cars, they're closer in design to the K&N setup. I can see where a stock tune would show no gain with a changed airbox, the same is true with my previous GM engines. The tune was the key to unlocking its potential.

Just a thought.

[Jack B]

What is interesting, the Gen2 air duct would go dead at 100 mph, all the intake air would come from the high pressure under the front of the car. They finally have one that provides absolute outside air at speed, why change. As I said, my IAT equals ambient at the end of the quarter, therefore, we know those that are road racing would see similar results.



You know...our beloved GTS-R and GT3-R cars don't have sealed airboxes like our cars, they're closer in design to the K&N setup. I can see where a stock tune would show no gain with a changed airbox, the same is true with my previous GM engines. The tune was the key to unlocking its potential.

Just a thought.

[ViperTony]

What is interesting, the Gen2 air duct would go dead at 100 mph, all the intake air would come from the high pressure under the front of the car. They finally have one that provides absolute outside air at speed, why change. As I said, my IAT equals ambient at the end of the quarter, therefore, we know those that are road racing would see similar results.

I haven't done the 1/4 mile in my GenV yet, at least not at the strip. :D But daily driving around town my IAT is much higher than ambient. The highest it's been was 43 degrees over ambient. Highway speeds, my IAT is always at least 20-30 degrees over ambient. Doesn't matter if I'm cruising at 60 mph or higher. The delta between IAT/Ambient is much more significant on the GenV than it is on my GenII. I haven't wrapped my airbox. It's still as-is from the factory.

[Jack B]

A wrapped air box is 10-15 degrees over ambient at 70 mph. As the speed increases the IAT Closes on ambient, that is the sign of a good cold air box, the second part of the equation is flow.

IAT is meaningless unless you are at a constant speed.


I haven't done the 1/4 mile in my GenV yet, at least not at the strip. :D But daily driving around town my IAT is much higher than ambient. The highest it's been was 43 degrees over ambient. Highway speeds, my IAT is always at least 20-30 degrees over ambient. Doesn't matter if I'm cruising at 60 mph or higher. The delta between IAT/Ambient is much more significant on the GenV than it is on my GenII. I haven't wrapped my airbox. It's still as-is from the factory.

[Revolution]

Good info here guys!

[ViperTony]

IAT is meaningless unless you are at a constant speed.

Yes, my observations on IAT temps were done at constant speed.

[Bruce]

Two questions:
1. Forgot who for sure but doesn't someone offer a California approved hi-flow cat option?
2. One thing I didn't like about the Mopar ECU for the Gen 4 cars was that it took the decel pops away, Torrie will the tune take the pops away? Or better yet, can the tune dump more fuel at the right moments (shifts, liftoffs, etc.) for more pronounce pops? One of the best features of the Ford GT with X pipes (no mufflers) was that it was quiet at cruise but sounded thunderous at WOT and wish the Gen V could sound like that.

[Jack B]

FYI

The Balenger headers with the single cat do increase the deacel associated "pop". The tune won't affect the sound if you do not want it to.



Two questions:
1. Forgot who for sure but doesn't someone offer a California approved hi-flow cat option?
2. One thing I didn't like about the Mopar ECU for the Gen 4 cars was that it took the decel pops away, Torrie will the tune take the pops away? Or better yet, can the tune dump more fuel at the right moments (shifts, liftoffs, etc.) for more pronounce pops? One of the best features of the Ford GT with X pipes (no mufflers) was that it was quiet at cruise but sounded thunderous at WOT and wish the Gen V could sound like that.

[tmcphail]

The only thing I can think of that would impact that would be altering decel fuel cut off.

[SN95SNAKE]

Nice numbers!

[Bruce]

The only thing I can think of that would impact that would be altering decel fuel cut off.

So would decreasing the decel fuel cut off INCREASE the pop? If so, I'd like to see that implemented.

The new Jag F Type has crazy pops (maybe too much to some)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&amp;v=f58d-ng8ow8#t=27

[tmcphail]

I have not altered that function to see what would happen in either direction as of yet.

[Nine Ball]

If I allow my '06 to decel on the throttle, it makes a huge KABOOOOOM and shoots flames out both sides. Good for trolling at night :)

[05Commemorative]

Tony, maybe I missed it, but did you mention how one can get this from you and do the tune without going to the dealer for the throttle re-learn?

[tmcphail]

I was able on my TA to make it work without the relearn but I have not tested it on another car yet.

[Jack B]

On the G2 when using SCT you could make the pop come and go by changing the deaccel tables. HPT does not look far different as far as the ability to control those values.


So would decreasing the decel fuel cut off INCREASE the pop? If so, I'd like to see that implemented.

The new Jag F Type has crazy pops (maybe too much to some)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=f58d-ng8ow8#t=27

[Simms]

I was able on my TA to make it work without the relearn but I have not tested it on another car yet.

Any idea if the ones Woodhouse did needed to relearn?

[tmcphail]

They have the tool and do it in site.

[mjorgensen]

Any idea if the ones Woodhouse did needed to relearn?

Yes we did the relearn, even if the car works without it the blades could be slightly off for optimal performance so it is advisable to have it done.

[Simms]

Yes we did the relearn, even if the car works without it the blades could be slightly off for optimal performance so it is advisable to have it done.

Thanks Mark. What's all involved with the dealer for the relearn?

[Jack B]

It is like syncing the throttles on a G1/G2, however it is done with the Witech scan tool.

http://www.oemtools.com/homeproducts/chrysler.html


Thanks Mark. What's all involved with the dealer for the relearn?

[mjorgensen]

Thanks Jack ^^^

[Dman]

So would decreasing the decel fuel cut off INCREASE the pop? If so, I'd like to see that implemented.

The new Jag F Type has crazy pops (maybe too much to some)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=f58d-ng8ow8#t=27

I test drove an F type 8 cyl convertible with the wife. It was amazing, set on sport, the exhaust rips and the burble and popping sounds like it can't be factory. It puts L&F cars to shame. The wife asked me what was wrong with it and she's used to my off road exhausted cars. It pops like a sport bike with an exhaust leak, lol.

Anyone manufacturer who says factory exhausts can't sound good because of the govt legal restrictions, etc., needs to go hire Jags lawyers and exhaust designers because you'd never change that exhaust, it's loud and mean in quiet mode, in sport it's like an off road race system.


BTW, this is almost the only thread I'm visiting now. This is so awesome .. all I need is a gen5 so I can join the excitement personally. lol

[tmcphail]

I just verified another 13 Viper that flashed my program and ran fine without a throttle relearn.

[FLATOUT]

I just verified another 13 Viper that flashed my program and ran fine without a throttle relearn.

Awesome! I'll have it done anyways but thanks for the update. BTW I'll talk to you more this week, finally back in town for awhile.

[tmcphail]

Sounds good, I am ready for whatever you need.

[Viper Specialty]

And I doubt that you ever will. Here's what can possibly happen if you try doing a Pectel on a Gen 5 (from this thread: http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/1994-Gen-V-TT-Build?p=79321&viewfull=1#post79321):


As I just posted in the other thread, that list of issues has everything to do with the installer, and nothing to do with the hardware. Some shops should just stop trying to do things they don't understand.

[waterdamage]

Im the GEN 5 owner that installed Torrie's tune without the TB relearn. Yes, everything went smooth despite my lack of technical computer skills lol. Torrie was fantastic to work with!

Torrie, holy smokes!!!!!!!! Talk about waking up the dragon!! I havent hit the dyno yet, but I can tell you that it is a completely different car. Massive amounts of extra power and thats just the tune by itself. Cant wait to see what happens with the intake and cat-less exhaust. Thanks a bunch

Anyone on the fence about getting the tune..... finish jumping and order your tune asap. the best upgrade by far!

[tmcphail]

No problem at all man. You did great and I am glad so far that you are pleased. More power to come!!

[FLATOUT]

Awesome to hear! I am setting up a day with Torrie for some Houston guys, can't wait to get him down!

Andy


Im the GEN 5 owner that installed Torrie's tune without the TB relearn. Yes, everything went smooth despite my lack of technical computer skills lol. Torrie was fantastic to work with!

Torrie, holy smokes!!!!!!!! Talk about waking up the dragon!! I havent hit the dyno yet, but I can tell you that it is a completely different car. Massive amounts of extra power and thats just the tune by itself. Cant wait to see what happens with the intake and cat-less exhaust. Thanks a bunch

Anyone on the fence about getting the tune..... finish jumping and order your tune asap. the best upgrade by far!

[Jack B]

Why don't you stay awhile.


As I just posted in the other thread, that list of issues has everything to do with the installer, and nothing to do with the hardware. Some shops should just stop trying to do things they don't understand.

[tmcphail]

Awesome to hear! I am setting up a day with Torrie for some Houston guys, can't wait to get him down!

Andy


I am all set to get this in motion for you.

[Nambo]

Getting ready to haul mine up to Woodhouse tomorrow for a dyno tune and MCS suspension install. Will keep everyone posted on results.

[mnc2886]

Getting ready to haul mine up to Woodhouse tomorrow for a dyno tune and MCS suspension install. Will keep everyone posted on results.
Don't forget to post a video for those living vicariously at the moment!!!

[tmcphail]

Thumbs up!

[Murpowa]

Looking forward to the results Nambo! :dancingman:

[tmcphail]

The car Mark worked through yesterday was identical to the one he did a week or two ago. And I know of two this week he will be doing including the guy above tomorrow. All good stuff!

[mjorgensen]

Getting ready to haul mine up to Woodhouse tomorrow for a dyno tune and MCS suspension install. Will keep everyone posted on results.


The car Mark worked through yesterday was identical to the one he did a week or two ago. And I know of two this week he will be doing including the guy above tomorrow. All good stuff!


Yes the car we did with a little tweaking yesterday you can overlay the graphs and they are identical within 1.5hp! This car was a little stronger on the baseline before the tune with headers installed, but the end number we feel is the limit of this combo safely for us. A/F is 12.5 - 12.7, timing is maxed according to our contacts. We are VERY happy and yes the car is totally transformed with the Belanger/HPT upgrades.

See you soon Nambo ;-)

[FLATOUT]

Mark what kind of gains or numbers with this setup are you guys seeing? Peak numbers differ from dyno to dyno but what are they making baseline before the headers, and then after the exhaust swap and tune?

Thanks!

Andy

[Divexxtreme]

Yes the car we did with a little tweaking yesterday you can overlay the graphs and they are identical within 1.5hp! This car was a little stronger on the baseline before the tune with headers installed, but the end number we feel is the limit of this combo safely for us. A/F is 12.5 - 12.7, timing is maxed according to our contacts. We are VERY happy and yes the car is totally transformed with the Belanger/HPT upgrades.

See you soon Nambo ;-)

That's my car. Can't wait to drive her!

[tmcphail]

I bet, you will be pleased no doubt.

[mjorgensen]

Mark what kind of gains or numbers with this setup are you guys seeing? Peak numbers differ from dyno to dyno but what are they making baseline before the headers, and then after the exhaust swap and tune?

Thanks!

Andy

Andy,
This car baselined 10rwhp higher (with Belanger exhaust already) then the first so the gains were that much less. A completely stock car is a 60-65rwhp spread based on the sample cars we did on this dyno in the past. The torque gains were 51 at 5350 rpm.

[FLATOUT]

Andy,
This car baselined 10rwhp higher (with Belanger exhaust already) then the first so the gains were that much less. A completely stock car is a 60-65rwhp spread based on the sample cars we did on this dyno in the past. The torque gains were 51 at 5350 rpm.

Damn and that's with cats still on the car! That's fantastic, so my car which made 556rwhp stock would potentially make 600+ with cats and I am thinking close to 620+ without cats. Damn!

[tmcphail]

A solid bolt on NA package exists in multiple stages now that's for sure.

[Magnus]

I'm happy to see its working out for everyone.

I'll admit, more customers are purchasing it than I had initially thought. In almost every market we get into, users always swear up and down that the demand is far greater than what we actually see after product release.

Due to the success of the release, I'm guessing we'll be spending some more time on calibration development, particularly in the throttle and airflow sections.

- Keith @ HP Tuners

[tmcphail]

Thanks Keith. It will most likely be a requirement where I am headed :)

[FLATOUT]

Thanks Keith!

I am getting some cars lined up down here as we speak so I expect to see a few more move off the shelf!

Great news!

Andy


I'm happy to see its working out for everyone.

I'll admit, more customers are purchasing it than I had initially thought. In almost every market we get into, users always swear up and down that the demand is far greater than what we actually see after product release.

Due to the success of the release, I'm guessing we'll be spending some more time on calibration development, particularly in the throttle and airflow sections.

- Keith @ HP Tuners

[Steve M]

I'm happy to see its working out for everyone.

I'll admit, more customers are purchasing it than I had initially thought. In almost every market we get into, users always swear up and down that the demand is far greater than what we actually see after product release.

Due to the success of the release, I'm guessing we'll be spending some more time on calibration development, particularly in the throttle and airflow sections.

- Keith @ HP Tuners

I can send you my first born child if that helps ;)

[Voice of Reason]

The ONLY reason I haven't called Torrie yet is I'm weeks away from putting the car in storage for the winter, so timing is bad. But he's the first person I'm calling when things thaw in the spring.

[tmcphail]

The ONLY reason I haven't called Torrie yet is I'm weeks away from putting the car in storage for the winter, so timing is bad. But he's the first person I'm calling when things thaw in the spring.

Fear not I will be here when you are ready :)

[SilveRT8]

The ONLY reason I haven't called Torrie yet is I'm weeks away from putting the car in storage for the winter, so timing is bad. But he's the first person I'm calling when things thaw in the spring.

Same situation for all the Northern guys.
When springtime comes I'll want the Tune with headers and filters
Finally, things are exciting!

[Jack B]

I'm happy to see its working out for everyone.

I'll admit, more customers are purchasing it than I had initially thought. In almost every market we get into, users always swear up and down that the demand is far greater than what we actually see after product release.

Due to the success of the release, I'm guessing we'll be spending some more time on calibration development, particularly in the throttle and airflow sections.

- Keith @ HP Tuners

what about the enhanced PIDS with the scanner?

[Getnlwr]

Keith, if any of that development can be passed back to the gen 4 it would be appreciated. I plan on doing the ecu work in Feb.

[hova00]

I don't know if ill be able to make it to the summer. The results sure look impressive and cant wait to some more results maybe even a pass at the strip.

[Magnus]

Any work done to the Gen5 would also be mirrored on the Gen4.

All the parameters you have in the scanner are basically what you're going to get. The Gen5 doesn't support the additional modes required like the Gen4, which is why the Gen4 has so many unique scannable parameters.

[Shooter]

It's sure is good to see these gains. A 620-630 rwhp Gen V with minor bolt-ons and a tune is so badass and just what we need for this platform imo. Good job all around.

[Bruce]

The only thing I can think of that would impact that would be altering decel fuel cut off.

So Torrie, will we the end users be able to fiddle w/ the decel fuel cut off parameter to dial in the sound to our liking? If so, count me in for one unit.

[Bruce]

...

Due to the success of the release, I'm guessing we'll be spending some more time on calibration development, particularly in the throttle and airflow sections.

- Keith @ HP Tuners

Keith, please elaborate what you were referring to in "in the throttle and airflow sections". Thanks.

[tmcphail]

So Torrie, will we the end users be able to fiddle w/ the decel fuel cut off parameter to dial in the sound to our liking? If so, count me in for one unit.

You have open calibration access in HPTuners and can alter the fields within it right now.

[05Commemorative]

Torrie, I am very interested in getting for my Gen5, but wondering the difference between the pro vs std editions. I tried looking up, but want the straight scoop on the value of getting the pro over the std. worth it?

[tmcphail]

Basically the pro version allows you to input external 0-5V devices for datalogging. I would say for most the Std version will be sufficient.

for more in depth info go here :

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?2924-MPVI-Std-and-MPVI-Pro-(Enhanced-IO)-Interface-Differences

[Bruce]

Torrie, how does that tuner adapt to various bolt-on equipments such as headers and hi-flow cats? And will we be able to load 91, 93, and 100 octane tunes for each level of bolt-on's at this time? Or in the near future?

[Jack B]

Will you be able to to find the KR, which is available on the G4.



Any work done to the Gen5 would also be mirrored on the Gen4.

All the parameters you have in the scanner are basically what you're going to get. The Gen5 doesn't support the additional modes required like the Gen4, which is why the Gen4 has so many unique scannable parameters.

[tmcphail]

Torrie, how does that tuner adapt to various bolt-on equipments such as headers and hi-flow cats? And will we be able to load 91, 93, and 100 octane tunes for each level of bolt-on's at this time? Or in the near future?

I / you can build whatever calibration you see fit since its wide open and adjustments can be made at any time. The control system itself is dynamic being mass air and will scale fuel requirements up and down on its own to some degree because of that.

[tmcphail]

You can also download and demo the software :

http://files.hptuners.com/VCM%20Suite/VCM%20Suite.msi

[Bruce]

HP Tuner purchased, can't wait to get it in my hot little hands....

[tmcphail]

HP Tuner purchased, can't wait to get it in my hot little hands....

Thank you Bruce, I will get this shipped out!

[FLATOUT]

You can also download and demo the software :

http://files.hptuners.com/VCM%20Suite/VCM%20Suite.msi

That's cool! Had the gauges pulled up at my desk lol.

[tmcphail]

Nothing wrong with getting ready now.

[Nambo]

Just finished up 573/528 on a Mustang Dyno, started at 538/501. Mark should have more info posted on the Woodhouse Facebook page soon.

[Nambo]

Oh yeah and the butt dyno is off the scale, this thing will peel your face off from 4000 to 6500 rpm! Night and day difference in the car!

[tmcphail]

Heck yeah it does. That is awesome!

[Crotalidae]

Just finished up 573/528 on a Mustang Dyno, started at 538/501. Mark should have more info posted on the Woodhouse Facebook page soon.

Great numbers!!! What other mods if any have you done in addition to the tuning???

[Nambo]

Car has Belanger headers with Corsa cat backs, that's it.

[Crotalidae]

Car has Belanger headers with Corsa cat backs, that's it.

Very nice!!! Thanks for the info & enjoy the new found extra power!!!

[FLATOUT]

Car has Belanger headers with Corsa cat backs, that's it.

Hey Nambo was the starting number with the headers already installed, just not tuned yet? If so that's great.

[Nambo]

Hey Nambo was the starting number with the headers already installed, just not tuned yet? If so that's great.

You are correct, baseline was with headers/exhaust and no tune.

[Murpowa]

Great numbers for a mustang dyno Nambo.

Andy, I can't wait until you start modding your TA

[FLATOUT]

Great numbers for a mustang dyno Nambo.

Andy, I can't wait until you start modding your TA

It should make more power by the end of next month ;)

[Nambo]

Great numbers for a mustang dyno Nambo.

Andy, I can't wait until you start modding your TA

Thanks. Lap times and ET's are going to start dropping with these cars being tuned how they should have come from Dodge. I can't tell you how much stronger this car pulls now, just incredible. Exhaust note is even different since it is not running so rich.

[FLATOUT]

Thanks. Lap times and ET's are going to start dropping with these cars being tuned how they should have come from Dodge. I can't tell you how much stronger this car pulls now, just incredible. Exhaust note is even different since it is not running so rich.

I remember how much better my Gen III ran once I had it tuned. On my Gen IV, even with the Mopar ECU, it still felt fat fuel wise and a little sluggish.

[Divexxtreme]

Just finished up 573/528 on a Mustang Dyno, started at 538/501. Mark should have more info posted on the Woodhouse Facebook page soon.


Congrats, Nambo! Enjoy!

[mjorgensen]

Just finished up 573/528 on a Mustang Dyno, started at 538/501. Mark should have more info posted on the Woodhouse Facebook page soon.

Just look at that curve this is a 6 on the smoothing scale so is a good representation of what can be done with some time on the dyno. This is what we started with after loading the HPT and the end result after tuning on the dyno.

7073

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10152539554207737.1073741910.167968157736&type=3&uploaded=9#!/167968157736/photos/p.10152539329042737/10152539329042737/?type=1&theater

[Voice of Reason]

What RPM is it safe to take these to with the tune? And when the redline is raised does it actually change it on the tach?

[FLATOUT]

Damn that's nice.


Just look at that curve this is a 6 on the smoothing scale so is a good representation of what can be done with some time on the dyno. This is what we started with after loading the HPT and the end result after tuning on the dyno.

7073

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10152539554207737.1073741910.167968157736&type=3&uploaded=9#!/167968157736/photos/p.10152539329042737/10152539329042737/?type=1&theater

- - - Updated - - -


What RPM is it safe to take these to with the tune? And when the redline is raised does it actually change it on the tach?

Fuel cutoff just comes in later. You will shift into the red line.

[Voice of Reason]

Damn that's nice.



- - - Updated - - -



Fuel cutoff just comes in later. You will shift into the red line.

I wondered with the tach being digital if it would reference the tune and adjust redline. That might be wishful thinking though.

[tmcphail]

That doesn't change

[cashcorn]

Seems to be a big difference in Dyno's. Dynojet vs Mustang. Is there a way to calculate similar crank HP from these two? BTW. HOLY CRAP! I can't wait! quote of the day! "Oh yeah and the butt dyno is off the scale, this thing will peel your face off from 4000 to 6500 rpm! Night and day difference in the car!"

[mjorgensen]

What RPM is it safe to take these to with the tune? And when the redline is raised does it actually change it on the tach?

The rev limits are changed, but there is not a ton of power there so it would only really be used to hold a gear longer at the drags or a road course IMO, I would still shift around 6300.