Gen V forum posting vitriol discourages Viper team participation

[Bruce H.]

I had the pleasure of spending considerable time with a number of SRT/Dodge's senior management as their guest at the Tudor Race the weekend before last, and met another couple this past weekend at Homecoming. What a great bunch of passionate and knowledgeable enthusiasts, and I found them all candid and sincere when answering questions. As I listened to them I realized that they could address forum user criticisms and diffuse concerns that are constantly discussed here. When asked why they don't I learned that in some cases they had in the past, not necessarily under their own names, and it was clear from some that it was the attitudes of some (or many) members that had discouraged them from doing so.

Let me ask you these questions...

-Do you really think that SRT is the only one to give Motor Trend or other magazines a mule or test car that had some difficiencies from previous testing that obviously were not representative of what customers would receive? Do you think the rags would generally give the manufacturer a chance to provide a proper test sample...or would they condemn the car when they knew an individual(s) had screwed up the prep of the car? And would they really conduct the test with an obviously faulty car and rank it last knowing their test car was in no way representative of the model's production quality?

-How do you know that the 8.4 V10 can easily run 700 hp or more with a more aggressive factory tune and still meet durability and reliability requirements. Are you sure the existence of forged components in the engine really means it was designed and tested for forced-induction?

-While the Hellcat would certainly have been durability tested for use in the Challenger, would anyone here really know whether the Hellcat could survive use in the Viper under its testing procedures?

-Is it possible that there are a wide range of things we argue over and criticize that maybe we just don't have the inside scoop on?

-Is it possible that there really is a 2015 Viper planned, and an announcement would have been made if it wasn't? I asked them about A-Z but felt it completely unnecessary and insulting to ask them if there was going to be a 2015.

-When Ralph addressed concerns that sales had missed an annual unit level they had thrown out once as simply being an estimated volume, and that they didn't actually "need" that volume of sales, isn't it possible that is actually the case? Should we assume it is not profitable, or profitable enough, at even existing levels? Afterall, Dodge recently made it their halo car...not something they'd do if it wasn't viable.

It seems to me that there are a lot of people here that can't possibly know enough to justify being so negative towards SRT and/or the car, and so full of doom and gloom. As the saying goes, "Misery loves company", but I think it's time we stop piling on the band wagon and give SRT a whole lot more credit than we do. Those of us who have lots of experience behind the wheel of the Gen V know it's a stunning exotic supercar in every aspect of those definitions, and a few of us know it's as capable on the street as it is on the road course for track days. The SRT team would surely love for every enthusiast to purchase a Viper, as would Aston of the Vantage, or Ferrari of the F458, but this end of the automotive market is a niche at best, and while you can satisfy some enthusiasts with your best effort, your pool of prospective buyers is very small, and difficult to know what will trigger their purchase.

So are we going to be a group that seeks to have the advantages that a positive attitude provides, one that encourages and welcomes participation of both owners and the manufacturer without fear of hostile and disrespectful responses, or do we want to go down the road that leaves us isolated and uniformed due to the views of a vocal and negative minority that typically aren't fully acquainted with the car, have no knowledge of the reasons for the manufacturer's decisions, may have no interest in owning the car, or are simply trolling?

The questions posed are intended to have us question some of our assumptions rather than provide answers, or excuses for things gone wrong. We need to ask ourselves how important it is at this stage to assign blame, particularly when we surely don't have all the facts. The bottom line for me is that I can be sure that Dodge will be working hard to ensure the success of the Viper. Everyone was concerned with marketing a $100-160k car under the Dodge brand in the first place, and perhaps it was determined that slow sales could in part be explained by the difficulties in achieving SRT brand recognition. Perhaps rolling SRT into the Dodge brand was intended to further help establishish it as the high performance division, with the Viper giving it more credibility and a world class halo car, and the timing to do so chosen to coincide with the big launch of the Hellcat Challenger.

I would like to point out that Ralph obviously didn't lose his position as president of a division, replaced by someone else, he lost it when the SRT division was rolled into Dodge. He still holds very senior roles, and the respect of the Viper team, SRT Racing (which is becoming very successful), and Viper owners everywhere. It is yet to be determined whether these brand decisions will help or hurt the Viper, but it will surely help Dodge.

The purpose of this thread is to suggest that we need to promote a more positive attitude among forum members for our own benefit and those looking in who may be considering a purchas as Jack points out. We're all sure to get a lot more out of the forum as we enjoy our Vipers, or shop for one, and we just might be able to encourage the Viper team to engage with what should be their greatest supporters. I found it curious over the weekend as I met so many Viper owners at Homecoming how few actually use the forums. I'd expected to find that I'd recognized their user names, but instead found they didn't have one, or seldom log in. It makes me wonder how their views might differ from those represented on the various forums...but I have to say they were among the happiest Viper enthusiasts I have met so far.

[viperr]

That is a well written post. I am amazed at how much speculation and negative comments have resulted from people who do not have facts or direct experience with the car. A large number of posts come from people who have never sat in, much less driven the Gen V. I have a Gen 2 now, but wouldn't hesitate buying a Gen V based on my experience seeing it in person and driving it. I can't help but think that all the negativity is not doing a lot of good. On the other hand, people can post concerns, but please deal in reality, not speculation.

[ViperGTS]

Social media in 2014 may not be understand by some...I heard the rumor there (NVE) that some SRT people blame the Vipeclub desaster for bad sales numbers too.
For me, there is 2 factors for the low sales:
1) the cars are too expensive; and
2) the PCM is locked and mods cant be done.

I can wait and see what happens in 2015, 2016, 2017 but, the roadster was always 2/3 of the sales. Where is a convertible Viper from the factory?

[XSnake]

For me, there is 2 factors for the low sales:
1) the cars are too expensive; and
2) the PCM is locked and mods cant be done.

I can wait and see what happens in 2015, 2016, 2017 but, the roadster was always 2/3 of the sales. Where is a convertible Viper from the factory?

Agreed

[mjorgensen]

Nice post Bruce, it is amazing how attitudes change after spending time with the people that are actually close to reality, glad you had that opportunity and the Balls to share it. ;-)

[ViperSmith]

The same group has been singing the same set of tired complaints for two years now. You'd think someone would move on by this point.

Gen V owners don't post a lot it seems, specifically for the same reasons.

It is easy to arm chair quarterback what SRT should be doing from the comfort of your house - it is harder to actually do it.

Oh well, sure well hear more of the same tired responses.

I get no Vert from the factory is coming and people are upset. They really should have put out the PCM and FI, that IMHO is a mistake still. As colo said in the other thread, corporate (not SRT) doesn't seem to be that enthused about the vehicle.

Such is life.

[kblake905]

Great post Bruce!
Unfortunately the glass half empty members are the prominent users of the forum.
But the reality this weekend was a very friendly group of enthusiasts who from I seen had nothing but smiles and compliments the whole weekend.
A great weekend!
Thanks to all the volunteers and volunteer work, I thoroughly enjoyed myself and can't wait for New Orleans!

[J TNT]

Great post Bruce ! And I share your opinion , the fact that the Viper Legacy is 20 years and going in this day and age , is a testament to SRT and thier Engineers, for thier passion and commitment . And us as supporters . My hope is that it continues , so we all benefit . :) :drive:

[FLATOUT]

I recieved several texts from friends in Detroit this weekend telling me how much they loved driving the Gen V's and the TA. That was great to hear. I am very happy with my choice and purchase if I could do it over again I would have bought a TA sooner lol.

[Glhs110]

Bruce, Excellent job on a well-written positive post And I'm glad to see I'm not alone in those feelings toward the negativity. I'm sure the convertible fans will quickly jump on and sidetrack this thread! I'm not a convertible guy but I understand their concerns. I'm sure Dodge and SRT are completely aware they have their convertible fans who want to see a new car rolled out. Basic automotive math says it would take approximately four years and 4166 units, with-current Viper margins, To pay for the tooling of a convertible. With a plant capable of making only 2000 cars a year it just doesn't seem like it would be worth it. Of course I'm not an expert however I did stay at a holiday in express last night! I would love to see a second model of a Viper without a roof.
I feel the homecoming weekend was an outstanding event. I had a great time at all the different venues and have no complaints. We are all lucky enough to have a manufacturer that opens its doors and allows us to roam freely through the plant. We got to mingle with top executives engineers and designers. I'm proud to say I am a Viper owner, After all it is the Original American badass Hand built in Detroit!!! And there is no other car owners out there that can say that!

[Stretch]

I feel the homecoming weekend was an outstanding event. I had a great time at all the different venues and have no complaints. We are all lucky enough to have a manufacturer that opens its doors and allows us to roam freely through the plant. We got to mingle with top executives engineers and designers. I'm proud to say I am a Viper owner, After all it is the Original American badass Hand built in Detroit!!! And there is no other car owners out there that can say that!

^ This x1,000,000

[TowDawg]

Very nice post, and I agree with most of your points. However, it cannot be denied that there are/were serious screw-ups by Dodge/SRT as well.
1. The test car you mentioned showing up in awful shape.
2. Essentially no marketing hype or advertising.
3. Building dealer stock while those that ordered early sat and waited.
4. Some shoddy Dodge dealers (I know they did make attempt here with SRT certified dealers).
5. Almost impossible to get a test drive. As has been mentioned, many who drive it love it. The problem is that the bad press is all a lot of potential buyers had to go on because they couldn't test drive one. I know it's the halo car, but I can go to any other brand dealership and they'll toss me the keys to cars a lot more expensive than the Viper. At the very least, be selective and verify funds/financing ability before allowing a test drive.
6. Very little aftermarket support because of locked PCM's. Dodge can say all they want about the EPA, but GM/Ford have tuning capability before the cars are even released.
7. No follow-through on even the Mopar PCM offering.
As far as a couple of other things you mentioned:
The motor can easily make 700 hp and be durable (See Illmor Marine engines), but emissions could be the issue. I still think direct injection would provide a major boost, but that is pure speculation on my part.
The "forged internals" bit was certainly "presented" by Ralph/SRT in a way that promoted the forced induction capability.

I'm not taking anything away from the car, or the fact that they managed to get it produced at all, but you cannot honestly believe that major mistakes weren't made. Viper owners have always been a very passionate group, and it may come across as very negative sometimes, but Dodge/SRT should embrace that and listen/work on those criticisms rather than choosing to pull away.

[ViperGTS]

Bruce, I appreciate your posts. However, with saying "I'm not a convertible guy but I understand their concerns. I'm sure Dodge and SRT are completely aware they have their convertible fans who want to see a new car rolled out" you deny the FACT that 2/3 of all Vipers ever built were roadsters (like that better than conv.).

From a marketing point of view, Dodge/SRT/Chrysler ignored the 2/3. The result is well known.

I own both - a coupe and a roadster - for many reasons. And, there is nothing negativ with stating such facts.

[johniew398]

I have owned my TA for seven months and have 1,700 miles on it.

I can't think of anything I would change on the car. I loved my ACR but the TA is a lot more of a quality car as far as the build, fit and finish.

Yes, I was holding out for a new ACR but glad I pulled the trigger on the TA.

I'm less interested in what people say about SRT's sales strategy, how they marketed the car, etc., than I am on whether I like my Viper or not.

[TwinVipers]

Great post Bruce, but some of us viper faithful feel cheated by such car! So are we to shut up and cheerlead the brand while we see it heading the wrong direction? It's quite obvious that SRT failed or screwed up by going after new customers (Porsche crowd) with their options and pricing structure and forgot about the base who bought the car and supported it from day 1. I was very very excited to get into a gen 5 based on the looks and the interior upgrade but felt that the extra 40 hp was and still is a joke, as was the the pricing! That compiled with the whole computer issue, I decided to keep my gen 4 and go TT. That's just me, one customer who decided to speak with my wallet!

Now I'm glad that SRT is looking at the forums, but they need not be discouraged. Instead use it as a tool to gage what their faithful want in the car and deliver! Did the nasty and public Vca divorce help sales, of course not! But that is not the main reason sales are in the tank! What did they expect by the whole way the launch was handled? Perhaps budget restraints had something to do with it, but if they can deliver a 707hp challenger with better brakes, handling, and interior for 60k, whose idea was it to offer vipers optioned up to the 150-60k range? The market has spoken, you can either deal with it, or not! Fix it or let it die (the way it looks from the silence this past weekend). Getting your feelings hurt and throwing a pity party doesn't solve anything! I personally wish them nothing but luck, but until they give me what I want, I have every right to voice my displeasure with the car I love and very passionate about.

[Bruce H.]

Thanks guys, and I'm glad you support the idea.


Nice post Bruce, it is amazing how attitudes change after spending time with the people that are actually close to reality, glad you had that opportunity and the Balls to share it. ;-)

Thanks, and you are so right. I was extremely fortunate to spent a lot of one-on-one time with Ralph, Beth, Dick, and Matt over two days. They were truly excited to meet an owner that tracks his car frequently and enjoys it relentlessly on the road. They were very interested in getting to know me, my past cars and tracking experience, and what had recently drew me to the Viper from other brands. I'm repeating myself, but I asked them a number of questions covering a wide range of topics and found them to be very forth-coming and unguarded in their responses, and never once said they couldn't discuss this or that.

I wish everyone could benefit from this kind of personal access, but we could certainly all benefit from their involvement here. As forum members we shouldn't feel "entitled" to it, but we should help create an atmosphere that encourages it. I hope to be able to reference this thread to encourage SRT to do just that, and now know the ones that could possibly make it happen.

[mikesax]

Bruce-TREMENDOUS post!! I wish everyone had your outlook!! I have 16000 miles on my 13-2500 on my 14-EVERY SINGLE ONE a BLAST!!!! This HAND MADE - HOME GROWN EXOTIC gets better with every mile!! Just wish people weren't so negative-it is so typical of the how people think these days-so many are miserable in their outlook-not just towards the Viper but towards EVERYTHING!!!!!

[Bruce H.]

I'm not taking anything away from the car, or the fact that they managed to get it produced at all, but you cannot honestly believe that major mistakes weren't made. Viper owners have always been a very passionate group, and it may come across as very negative sometimes, but Dodge/SRT should embrace that and listen/work on those criticisms rather than choosing to pull away.
I do believe there were a number of mistakes made in a variety of areas, and thank you for articulating many of those commonly discussed one more time on the off chance that someone in a remote corner of the world missed reading about them a hundred times already ;) It would come across as negative to me to discuss any of them at this point, you can be sure SRT is well aware of them, and that they are doing everything they can to address them and prevent repeating them in the future. Would you agree that we should leave them in the past now and move on, allowing SRT and Dodge to develop the program as best as they can, given the constraints that they have, and the other factors that we do not know about?

[Bruce H.]

Bruce, I appreciate your posts. However, with saying "I'm not a convertible guy but I understand their concerns. I'm sure Dodge and SRT are completely aware they have their convertible fans who want to see a new car rolled out" you deny the FACT that 2/3 of all Vipers ever built were roadsters (like that better than conv.).

From a marketing point of view, Dodge/SRT/Chrysler ignored the 2/3. The result is well known.

I own both - a coupe and a roadster - for many reasons. And, there is nothing negativ with stating such facts.
I'm a convertible fan, always have been, and so is my wife. I adored my '70 E-Type vert, bought the 2010 XKR vert when they stuffed a 510 hp S/C V8 into it and made it track capable, tracked it for two years, and wanted to buy a Gen V vert. We envied every one of the dozens and dozens of vert owners at Homecoming. I can only guess as to why SRT offered the V as a coupe only, perhaps because they were best able to accomplish what they wanted to performance wise, or perhaps because their internal research indicated that was the route to go if they could only build one body style. I couldn't very well be upset with them for not building the one I thought I wanted, and have never looked back since getting the coupe. If we are to buy a second Viper it will be because they decide to offer it as a vert, and if I need to buy a different vert in the meantime I'm personally okay with that.

[Bruce H.]

.......

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

BRUCE H, I certainly Agree......

Your insightful and though-provoking posts here are a great reality check. Our loyalty to Viper is NOT misplaced, even though our super-model has a few blemishes visible and hiccups at times. Thank you for the posts.


I have been recruiting a Porsche-owning surgeon here, a great car-fan-guy. Past HPDE student at Portland. I took him a diecast G5 model, and he agreed about the "Halle Barry" analogy. I got him to visit a new G5 in a showroom. He LOVES the look, the style, the Graphite color, the power. The MSRP does not scare him, he sees the value, and the exclusivity. He dismissed the Vette as too common. Like many super-car buyers he is 'image' conscious, and actually voiced / worried that 'would a Chinese guy look weird in a Viper?'

I quickly told him that a Chinese guy is the FOUNDER of the Viper Owners Assn, and serves as VOA Pres, after 2 past terms as prez. And that the "First Lady" of the VOA is also Chinese. That eliminated / minimized one concern.

His bigger concern is safety, and he'd miss the AWD 'peace of mind' of his P-car. He is literally afraid of losing control of an RWD 600+HP car. So he has probably eliminated the G5 in favor of an Audi R8 V10. I shared my Sebring R-8 Pace Car experience, [thanks to LauriR.] Or possibly a GT-R but TOO stereotypical! So the 'scary Viper' reputation killed that sale.


Many of us out here are still waving the flag proudly...... In my case I am waving the flag to those who can afford it. I have to wait for a good, used, Orange TA......

[99RT10]

great post bruce, but some of us viper faithful feel cheated by such car! So are we to shut up and cheerlead the brand while we see it heading the wrong direction? It's quite obvious that srt failed or screwed up by going after new customers (porsche crowd) with their options and pricing structure and forgot about the base who bought the car and supported it from day 1. I was very very excited to get into a gen 5 based on the looks and the interior upgrade but felt that the extra 40 hp was and still is a joke, as was the the pricing! That compiled with the whole computer issue, i decided to keep my gen 4 and go tt. That's just me, one customer who decided to speak with my wallet!

Now i'm glad that srt is looking at the forums, but they need not be discouraged. Instead use it as a tool to gage what their faithful want in the car and deliver! Did the nasty and public vca divorce help sales, of course not! But that is not the main reason sales are in the tank! What did they expect by the whole way the launch was handled? Perhaps budget restraints had something to do with it, but if they can deliver a 707hp challenger with better brakes, handling, and interior for 60k, whose idea was it to offer vipers optioned up to the 150-60k range? The market has spoken, you can either deal with it, or not! Fix it or let it die (the way it looks from the silence this past weekend). Getting your feelings hurt and throwing a pity party doesn't solve anything! I personally wish them nothing but luck, but until they give me what i want, i have every right to voice my displeasure with the car i love and very passionate about.

^^^^^best post of the whole thread^^^^^^^^

:t1236::t1236::t1236:

[Shooter]

Sounds like a typical sheeple apathetic outlook . Perhaps you have forgotten how the very car you are driving came about. It sure wasn't because everyone was happy with the Gen V vs ZR1 comparison now was it.? I'm just not going to act happy with every stupid new color, and talking about fancy dashboard readouts while the competition gets better. I never was the :head in the sand" type. So while I think the Gen V is a good car, It needs to be better to stay ahead of the competition. Hopefully, it happens soon.

moundir's post is spot on imo.

[FrgMstr]

Gen V forum posting vitriol discourages Viper team participation

Meh. If you can't take the heat and all that.

Big companies trying to successfully manage social internet relationships is not an easy thing to do however and would take a mouthpiece that was extremely skilled at that task. Given that how Dodge/SRT has very much dialed up its social interaction with its customer base, I am sure it could successfully interact with its halo car community. There has been a lot of solid feedback here about the new car. I suggest Dodge would be better off if it interacted rather than lurked. There is good criticism and bad. And thinking you only going to get one kind in an internet forum is a pipe dream.

I don't like the exterior styling cues of the Gen V. My interest pretty much stopped there. Can't make us all happy for sure, but I am not going to not voice my opinion and hope to myself that it would get addressed by luck.

[SlateEd]

I'm not in the market for a new car anyway so the discussion is academic to me now, but I would hope to be able to buy a Gen V or maybe VI one day, so I can appreciate both what the OP started here and what others like Moundir are getting at.

I think the key word in the thread title is 'Vitriol"

It makes perfect sense to voice complaints about the car itself. A wish-list of features and specs should help to drive the future for sure... BUT there is a difference when we start to assume that "no one is listening" or "clearly Chrysler doesn't care about the faithful" etc. etc. We have no way to know that, and all personal interaction with the execs we have a chance to meet suggests the opposite. The point is not to mute the conversation, but to make it civil.

[Chorps]

Thanks for posting this, I think there's a lot of discussion swirling around the future of the Viper. People are passionate about things they love, and this does show in the forums.

Some people believe that tough love is the best, and they believe that adding their voice to the discussion to make better decisions about the Viper is the best way forward. I'm sure none of the people are intending to hurt the Viper's future or potential sales, although the community may frighten away some folks with it's tough and rumble attitudes.


-Do you really think that SRT is the only one to give Motor Trend or other magazines a mule or test car that had some difficiencies from previous testing that obviously were not representative of what customers would receive? Do you think the rags would generally give the manufacturer a chance to provide a proper test sample...or would they condemn the car when they knew an individual(s) had screwed up the prep of the car? And would they really conduct the test with an obviously faulty car and rank it last knowing their test car was in no way representative of the model's production quality?


As much as I believe that the magazines tend to be biased and have preconceived ideas (and rankings) of the cars before they even get them, in this case the car was delivered to the magazine screwed up in more ways than one. The mismatched tires weren't discovered until more than halfway through testing. Contacting Chrysler/SRT was met with silence, so they went ahead and published it as they saw fit. Chrysler had a chance to have them hold the article but they really dropped the ball on that one. Maybe the screw up was hidden from management until the article came out but that's what I heard from the magazine's side of things (direct from the editor's mouth).

Chrysler is supposed to have a dedicated department to provide at least a once over to any vehicle going out, and this did not happen. Compounding that is the cone of silence, which made a bad mistake even worse.


-How do you know that the 8.4 V10 can easily run 700 hp or more with a more aggressive factory tune and still meet durability and reliability requirements. Are you sure the existence of forged components in the engine really means it was designed and tested for forced-induction?


Uh, what is that supposed to mean? The owners of the cars are asking for more power from the factory (either optional or standard, but more likely to be on all cars given the volume). Running any engine harder than the factory specs as an aftermarket modification is a warranty voider. A lot of experienced voices have said 700hp or more is reasonable, and although Chrysler might want to look at durability of 100,000 miles or more, most Vipers don't see that in 10 years.

The ones that are looking for more power from the factory are saying that they want more power and some are asking for doing it via forced induction or other means.

Forged components in the Gen V are there for a feel good? The Gen IV didn't have forged pistons so unless the Gen IV has a serious design fault that Chrysler isn't talking about I'd venture that the Gen V has forged pistons to accommodate more power or the supplier gave Chrysler a heck of a discount.


-While the Hellcat would certainly have been durability tested for use in the Challenger, would anyone here really know whether the Hellcat could survive use in the Viper under its testing procedures?


If the Hellcat isn't going to last in a smaller quarters of the Viper, it is Chrysler's job to make is last or find a different option. Chrysler employs some pretty smart engineers who would be able to answer that question fairly definitively. I suggest management asks them.



-Is it possible that there are a wide range of things we argue over and criticize that maybe we just don't have the inside scoop on?


Yes, for sure. But that happens with every forum and not just the Viper forum. I'm certain the Prius forums have arguments and criticisms too.



-Is it possible that there really is a 2015 Viper planned, and an announcement would have been made if it wasn't? I asked them about A-Z but felt it completely unnecessary and insulting to ask them if there was going to be a 2015.


No news is no news, although the great launch of the Hellcat is contrasted with the poor launch of the Gen V.



-When Ralph addressed concerns that sales had missed an annual unit level they had thrown out once as simply being an estimated volume, and that they didn't actually "need" that volume of sales, isn't it possible that is actually the case? Should we assume it is not profitable, or profitable enough, at even existing levels? Afterall, Dodge recently made it their halo car...not something they'd do if it wasn't viable.


Ralph is a great guy, and super enthusiastic and passionate about the Viper. However, he does put his foot in it occasionally. Hard to have a leader who is so accessible and not have the occasional overspeak. Parts of that overspeak is in the volumes they were looking for and the Ferrari (horsepower limits) joke.



It seems to me that there are a lot of people here that can't possibly know enough to justify being so negative towards SRT and/or the car, and so full of doom and gloom. As the saying goes, "Misery loves company", but I think it's time we stop piling on the band wagon and give SRT a whole lot more credit than we do. Those of us who have lots of experience behind the wheel of the Gen V know it's a stunning exotic supercar in every aspect of those definitions, and a few of us know it's as capable on the street as it is on the road course for track days. The SRT team would surely love for every enthusiast to purchase a Viper, as would Aston of the Vantage, or Ferrari of the F458, but this end of the automotive market is a niche at best, and while you can satisfy some enthusiasts with your best effort, your pool of prospective buyers is very small, and difficult to know what will trigger their purchase.
...

I would like to point out that Ralph obviously didn't lose his position as president of a division, replaced by someone else, he lost it when the SRT division was rolled into Dodge. He still holds very senior roles, and the respect of the Viper team, SRT Racing (which is becoming very successful), and Viper owners everywhere. It is yet to be determined whether these brand decisions will help or hurt the Viper, but it will surely help Dodge.


It is true that Viper owners are the ambassadors of the brand, and discussions on an open forum might scare away prospective buyers. I'd rather people discuss things openly though, warts and all.

However, I would rather people be more civil than insulting. Some people have a lot of exposed nerves and sensitive egos and tend to react poorly to apparently sidelong glances here.



The purpose of this thread is to suggest that we need to promote a more positive attitude among forum members for our own benefit and those looking in who may be considering a purchas as Jack points out. We're all sure to get a lot more out of the forum as we enjoy our Vipers, or shop for one, and we just might be able to encourage the Viper team to engage with what should be their greatest supporters. I found it curious over the weekend as I met so many Viper owners at Homecoming how few actually use the forums. I'd expected to find that I'd recognized their user names, but instead found they didn't have one, or seldom log in. It makes me wonder how their views might differ from those represented on the various forums...but I have to say they were among the happiest Viper enthusiasts I have met so far.

Not sure if the forum even matters from what you just posted here.

A lot of owners don't even come onto the forums. Is that because they don't come on any forum at all, or because they don't like the back and forth of some of the users? Those are very different things.

If only a few even pay attention to the forums and website regardless of whether we give each other fluffy ponies or lob rocks and bombs at each other, then business is going to continue as usual here.

I know a lot of owners are aware of the circumstances of the formation of the VOA, but don't post here. Is that a bigger detraction from people coming onto a forum over what your concerns are?

Personally I think the Gen V is a great car, better than the Gen IV, but the pricing of the GTS was more than a bit out there. No vert, no ACR made it a slow starter for sure. 700hp would have been a better conversation starter for sure, IMO, although I know the resurrection of the Viper made big improvements a tough proposition.

[tiki240]

I realize that I stand in a pretty lonely corner, being my age (29), and fortunate enough to purchase my 2013 GTS. I test drove, rented, and borrowed a myriad of cars before trying out a Viper base on a whim. It left such an impression after one day with it, that I literally obsessed about it and shifted my goals around to be able to support the team who brought it to market. I am in an even smaller crowd when I put out there that I didn't request Chrysler to buy back my car after more than 50 days of down time. I've been very vocal about loving the car itself, and only being let down by catastrophic communication failures attempting to rectify my cars problems.

There are those in the process (whom I don't name because I am unsure if they would want to be named) that have gone above and beyond to answer my questions and push resolutions for me. My list of complaints on my car are very short (Really its just wishing the TA brakes came base with the GTS, and that the shift boot would stay in one place). I admittedly have slightly bruised pride over the new Hellcat touting the HP number I had hoped for, but before its debut, I truly only wanted to add a more free-flowing exhaust to eliminate the highway drone, and tune it some slightly more aggressive throttle response.

I would like the PCM unlocked not so I could shoot to the stratosphere with FI, but so that I could have my tuners maximize the utilization of intake/exhaust modifications. I truly believe that the heads in their current state are very close to maxed out flow-wise. I also think that the current fuel system isn't equipped to pull much heavier duty than ~700-esque horsepower and even then, you could be pushing it with the 91 octane water that passes for gasoline in CA. With all engineering and design, there is a durability and failure threshold taken into account. I'd wager that SRT did give us the Gen V pushed to its limits while maintaining that threshold and the EPA etc. carbon footprint regulations. If she is over-built/ over-designed at her current horsepower levels internally, I'd say it was to partially future-proof slight increases in power and extended punishment on the track. The SRT team has done a hell of a job, if they hadn't, I wouldn't have committed what I have monetarily to showing my support.

If SRT is ever allotted their own dealerships with hand-picked staff that speak more to the true automotive enthusiasts than the bottom-line sales folk, I believe sales could really take off. There will always be a faster modded car, and nobody is going to go near the veyron's top-dog figures from an even moderately mass-produced car at this price range. If the SRT team were a magic genie that could only grant me one wish, it would hands-down be taking the customer interface (sales&repair) to the next level for those willing to bet on the long-shots. Driving ANY generation Viper is an experience, Owning any generation Viper is a statement, but sticking next to the team who gave it birth&revival is the real commitment. In this coming generation of flappy-paddle, hybrid green, plug-in, cylinder deactivating cars, I feel flat-out honored to stand next to one of the very last groups of like-minded individuals who dared to go bigger and more loudly into the night as the sun set on their backs, and their city started to crumble all around them.

Setting aside my own slightly bruised ego at the newcomer, I am elated that the horsepower wars are alive and well, and from the spy shots we've been shown, more improvements are being made. Bigger, tougher brakes, reinforced small-order vendor parts (TB's, Diffs), etc. We know another PCM has been in development, we just have to be patient for it. In the meantime, if you have the means, I'd humbly urge you to find a well-optioned GTS, at a dealership that will let you drive it, and just take the drive. If you are in the SoCal area, rent even a base SRT and take it out for the day. Brutal-honesty here, does my GTS feel a little less 'special' or 'unique' now that the hellcat has its interior materials, infotainment, transmission, and larger brakes? Yeah, a little. But a 67hp bump at the flywheel isn't going to fix that-nor should it. The flip side is obviously to look at it as when producing a halo-muscle car, to get the best, they had to borrow it from our cars.

If-and-when SRT unveils the next iteration of the Viper, I suspect it will be welcoming all challengers in its class akin to the Hellcat calling out all other muscle and pony cars alike. Waiting sucks... and undoubtedly mistakes were made, but if SRT folks should happen across this post... I hope you guys can use an over-worked, prematurely graying, twenty-something still showing his faith in the only car that has been able to justify the foregone parties, 12+ hour days in the office, and all-nighters of study- as motivation to keep pushing the limits of what is technically possible and mentally sane.:drive:

[plumcrazy]

I think everyone agrees the gen5 is a very good car but its not great. Great as in the dominator it used to be.

Sounds to me that the SRT guys dont want to hear the truth, i guess cause it hurts but ralph did what he could while walking around with corporate handcuffs on. He is still the most badass CEO of all time

[FLATOUT]

Actually it's not good it's great. Have you had the chance to drive one yet? Unlocking the ECU would be the icing on the cake for me.


I think everyone agrees the gen5 is a very good car but its not great. Great as in the dominator it used to be.

Sounds to me that the SRT guys dont want to hear the truth, i guess cause it hurts but ralph did what he could while walking around with corporate handcuffs on. He is still the most badass CEO of all time

[Troublemaker]

Actually it's not good it's great. Have you had the chance to drive one yet? Unlocking the ECU would be the icing on the cake for me.

I honestly think this has hurt the sales of the new car more than they think. I am having a great time throwing money at my old 96 right now and every time I get the bug to buy something a tune is really is only a phone all away and $400 of worth of SCT hardware. I think a few fast cars out there would have been great advertising for the brand that would cost SRT a whopping nothing. But from what I am hearing, their hands were tied. As I don't have a GenV myself, all I can say is those that have purchased them seem to love them. So at least for the people that leave them stock, they look to be perfect.

[Simms]

Actually it's not good it's great. Have you had the chance to drive one yet? Unlocking the ECU would be the icing on the cake for me.

I have to agree, it's an awesome car. The ECU is holding me back on other simple purchases like headers/exhaust as well.

[VYPR BYT]

If I were a Porsche, Ferrari, etc guy considering a Viper...
I would troll these boards anonymously and quickly mark Viper off my list after reading all the negativity from viper guys themselves. Basically I'd run and tell my friends to do the same.

[99RT10]

Actually it's not good it's great. Have you had the chance to drive one yet? Unlocking the ECU would be the icing on the cake for me.

It's a good car when place within a group of it's peers. What makes a great car is one that stands higher, ahead of it's peers. I know with the competition bringing the level of performance up as they did, it makes it much more dificult to distinquish its self, but that is what we have come to expect from Viper. Just my $.02

[ViperSmith]

If I were a Porsche, Ferrari, etc guy considering a Viper...
I would troll these boards anonymously and quickly mark Viper off my list after reading all the negativity from viper guys themselves. Basically I'd run and tell my friends to do the same.

This is what I don't get that escapes many it seems.

It is one thing to not like the car, the unending and relentless attacks, complaining, etc, are just mind boggling. It is far from bringing anyone into the fold. The attitudes of several Viper owners aren't becoming to the platform.

If you read rennlist and the trouble the people that ordered GT3's are going through, there isn't "vitriol" and mindless attacks. They are disappointed, but it is nothing like you read over here. They are discussing it like grown ups.

[LonghornTX]

It's a good car when place within a group of it's peers. What makes a great car is one that stands higher, ahead of it's peers. I know with the competition bringing the level of performance up as they did, it makes it much more dificult to distinquish its self, but that is what we have come to expect from Viper. Just my $.02
If we are use to that definition of what makes a great car (and I wouldn't), then previous generations of Viper haven't been great either...If anything, this is arguably the most competitive and well rounded Viper ever made.

However, I have found all Vipers to be great cars for their own reasons, just not how they stack up against the competition.

- - - Updated - - -


This is what I don't get that escapes many it seems.

It is one thing to not like the car, the unending and relentless attacks, complaining, etc, are just mind boggling. It is far from bringing anyone into the fold. The attitudes of several Viper owners aren't becoming to the platform.

If you read rennlist and the trouble the people that ordered GT3's are going through, there isn't "vitriol" and mindless attacks. They are disappointed, but it is nothing like you read over here. They are discussing it like grown ups.

I definitely agree

[FLATOUT]

It's a good car when place within a group of it's peers. What makes a great car is one that stands higher, ahead of it's peers. I know with the competition bringing the level of performance up as they did, it makes it much more dificult to distinquish its self, but that is what we have come to expect from Viper. Just my $.02

What car holds the current production car lap record at LS? How many different Vipers are in the top 10 of those times (several models and generations).

I would consider any car under $500K in the top 5 at the ring or any major US track, a GREAT car. The 7 figure cars these days like the 918, P1, and LaFerrari are in a different league all together.

[VENOM V]

Bruce,

As usual you bring a voice of reason to the table, exceptional post and I could not agree more.

I frequent the forum less and less due to this vitriol. While constructive criticism is healthy (and I believe the majority of posters bring valuable insights), it's the same repetitive whining from a select few that feel the need to shout louder (and shit harder, LOL) that has just worn me out.

So instead, I focus on enjoying my local Viper club and other events such as NVE that was an over the top good time with my Viper brothers. Great to see you, looking forward getting together again soon. I'm at 9,200 miles and am about to go to my 5th track in this bad boy, Sonoma ("Sears Point") next weekend. Keep on Vipering Bruce.

Todd

[Austin]

There are two reasons for this. 1. Porsche does whatever they want and the Porsche fanboys will circle-jerk to whatever Porsche gives them. 2. Dodge has always catered to what Viper owners wanted before branching out to "the public", so-to-speak. They arent doing much of that this go-around. This time Dodge/SRT went to Porsche owners and the likes to see what they wanted to see in the Viper; not the owners and buyers of their halo car.





This is what I don't get that escapes many it seems.

It is one thing to not like the car, the unending and relentless attacks, complaining, etc, are just mind boggling. It is far from bringing anyone into the fold. The attitudes of several Viper owners aren't becoming to the platform.

If you read rennlist and the trouble the people that ordered GT3's are going through, there isn't "vitriol" and mindless attacks. They are disappointed, but it is nothing like you read over here. They are discussing it like grown ups.

[FLATOUT]

Lighter, Faster, Interior not from 2003, Gen 2 classic styling, Body panels made of Carbon, Stripes painted under the clear, 3:55's.

I would say that these are all things that owners wanted and said they wanted on a regular basis, and considering the economic climate when the Gen V was being created I would say that it was pretty ballsy of them to bring it back at all.

I think they were listening.


There are two reasons for this. 1. Porsche does whatever they want and the Porsche fanboys will circle-jerk to whatever Porsche gives them. 2. Dodge has always catered to what Viper owners wanted before branching out to "the public", so-to-speak. They arent doing much of that this go-around. This time Dodge/SRT went to Porsche owners and the likes to see what they wanted to see in the Viper; not the owners and buyers of their halo car.

[Austin]

Eh, to a degree. But they especially arent listening now and wont be any time soon with the bean counter in charge of things. Still a re-skinned GEN IV, but a great car nonetheless.





Lighter, Faster, Interior not from 2003, Gen 2 classic styling, Body panels made of Carbon, Stripes painted under the clear, 3:55's.

I would say that these are all things that owners wanted and said they wanted on a regular basis, and considering the economic climate when the Gen V was being created I would say that it was pretty ballsy of them to bring it back at all.

I think they were listening.

[SlateEd]

...

I would consider any car under $500K in the top 5 at the ring or any major US track, a GREAT car. The 7 figure cars these days like the 918, P1, and LaFerrari are in a different league all together.

Absolutely agree. The peer comparison is getting tougher, but the peers are still some elite company.

...and it's fine to wish for world-domination in every aspect at the same time (drag, street, road course) but unrealistic to expect it, and unreasonable to endlessly bash the car and it's creators when it doesn't happen.

[Nine Ball]

I've met a few of the SRT staff, good guys. I don't blame them for not wanting to participate here on this (or any) forum. Even as a Gen 5 owner myself, I find it difficult at times to want to post about my car. I've been a member of numerous brand/model vehicle forums, and I've never seen a bigger bunch of haters, who wish to eat their young and hope that the car tanks in value and dies. I mean really? I thought this was a Viper Club? I've yet to met an actual Gen 5 owner that disliked the car, yet these negative people seem to think we owners regret buying them.

I'll admit I'm disappointed with a lot of things Dodge/SRT has or hasn't done well. But, I still enjoy the car itself. That is what the haters don't understand.

[FLATOUT]

Eh, to a degree. But they especially arent listening now and wont be any time soon with the bean counter in charge of things. Still a re-skinned GEN IV, but a great car nonetheless.

Austin, have you EVER sat in one, drove one, or even spent any time around one? A Gen V? Seriously I want an honest answer. I ask because I felt the same wat (a reskinned gen IV) until I actually spent some time driving one. If all you know is what you read on Viper forums about a Gen V trust me you will think it is the biggest pile of shit on the planet.

[Austin]

Austin, have you EVER sat in one, drove one, or even spent any time around one? A Gen V? Seriously I want an honest answer. I ask because I felt the same wat (a reskinned gen IV) until I actually spent some time driving one. If all you know is what you read on Viper forums about a Gen V trust me you will think it is the biggest pile of shit on the planet.



YES. I was at the unveiling and Ive been out to Tomball numerous times. Dude, you yourself even said on the phone the other night that it was basically a re-skinned GEN IV! I love the GEN V and would buy one RIGHT NOW, ZERO QUESTIONS ASKED if I had the coin. Im NOT bashing the GEN V. No need to get so defensive.

[BlknBlu]

Reps to Nineball.

Bruce

[Stealth]

Actually it's not good it's great. Have you had the chance to drive one yet? Unlocking the ECU would be the icing on the cake for me.

+1--it is a great car (at least so far). It is a very big step up from my Gen IV Coupe (which I liked very much). It is now more of a solid, quality, instrument, even just in street use. Owners of Pcars and other upscale cars would not be disappointed with the car, especially with a fully-loaded GTS (performance plus more insulation and luxury).

However, Pcar owners are usually cult-loyal to their brand so it is difficult to get those buyers, even with a superior performing, superior looking car. Similarly, buyers of Lambos and Ferraris likely do not buy the car for its performance and this may not be something Dodge (or Chevy) can easily crack into. Also, while the public and sportscar people look at metrics such as 0-60 (or 62 in Euro areas) and 1/4 mi. ETA and Trap speeds (I am more interested in Trap Speed), there is much more to a car's performance. I feel this is tough on the drivetrain and its certainly a good way to get arrested if you are on the street--especially in California. A DCT, AWD car will always have an advantage in those limited metrics, but how often do most drivers ever engage in such tests? A DCT and/or AWD car is very often not as engaging to drive. Instead, the look, feel, handling, gearing and sound of a sportscar all play a part in its appeal.

With the Gen V Dodge has broadened the appeal of the car, but at an increased price. Due to market conditions (and marketing, etc.), some great deals are available now for both used and new Gen Vs. If more Viper owners would move to Gen Vs at these bargains, then this would reduce inventory, put more people in seats to offer feedback and support the probability of further iterations of Gen V and even a Gen VI. The more Gen Vs that are sold, the more likely the owners of other sportscars can observe and sample the Gen V. This would be a good thing.

[FrgMstr]

...but how often do most drivers every engage in such tests?

Dude....you gotta come drive with me some time. ;)

If I find a Gen V Stryker Green CONVERTIBLE that someone has babied and shined with a diaper while hardly ever driving it, like a lot of Viper owners do, I will be a Gen V owner in a few years.

I have no hate for the car at all and am very glad that most Gen V guys have found value in their cars. I hope you guys buy enough of those to keep the Viper relevant to Chrysler so we can see what it comes up with next.

[mikesax]

This BALLSY MACHINE gets NOTICED!!! I'm a relative "newbie" to the "club"-2010 my first Viper-BEST automotive decision I've ever made-"hands down"!! It's a "PHENOMINAL" car-that's coming from someone whose owned plenty!! People's glasses are 3% empty-so they "bi.ch and moan"! EVERYONE SEEMS TO BE CRITICAL of just about EVERYTHING these days-SAD commentary of the internet age IMO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Crank it up and have some fun!! Great friend just got a white Ferrari-brandy spanking new!! Loves my Viper-but he's a Ferrari guy-car is AWESOME-but heck- I'm a Viper guy!! We both wouldn't trade each other for eithers car-but we BOTH think the others is "great"!! TWO happy car guys-NOTHING negative to say about any great automobile-THIS IS HOW IT SHOULD BE IMO!! SRT gave us a GREAT car-enjoy it!!

[FLATOUT]

YES. I was at the unveiling and Ive been out to Tomball numerous times. Dude, you yourself even said on the phone the other night that it was basically a re-skinned GEN IV! I love the GEN V and would buy one RIGHT NOW, ZERO QUESTIONS ASKED if I had the coin. Im NOT bashing the GEN V. No need to get so defensive.

Ok so you saw a non running clay model and some pictures. You haven't driven one or a gen IV for that matter. Austin my comment to you on the phone was tongue in cheek and I was referring to shared components not experience.

I guess what is frustrating is that I have now owned three generations of Viper and put a lot of miles on all of them. I tend to mod them, drive them, and race them. Each generation offers a unique and significant advancement in the evolution of the Viper.

When I had a gen three I didn't think a gen 4 was a significant improvement due to the fact that everything was the same except for the power and drive train. Then I bought a gen 4 and realized just how much better the car was due to those seemingly small improvements. Now the gen five offers to me and this is just my opinion improvements in styling, power train (small improvement), interior, weight, and overall build quality. Just like the gen four its the aggregate of all of the small improvements that makes the large advancement.

I have been happy with every Viper I have owned, it's the only platform that I have ever purchased successive models.

[Bruce H.]

Thanks for all the responses. Today I was reviewing them and trying to figure out how best to approach asking SRT to participate here. Where I had expected most members to be supportive of the idea, and look at it as a great opportunity to benefit from the knowledge of the people that know the car best, instead I found many used it as yet another opportunity to rag on many aspects of what SRT has done, and I can only assume that is what they would do directly to SRT if given the chance. This is part of the reason why SRT stopped participating here in the first place, and while we can "Ignore List" those who deserve to be, SRT would be badgered by them in a very public way with little chance of a positive outcome with them.

I then realized that these members and attitudes have not only cost us the support of SRT on the forums, but it's also been slowly costing us the participation and support of our most knowledgeable members...actual Gen V owners. The comments of these two respected members drives that point home, and there's days I feel the same.

Bruce,

As usual you bring a voice of reason to the table, exceptional post and I could not agree more.

I frequent the forum less and less due to this vitriol. While constructive criticism is healthy (and I believe the majority of posters bring valuable insights), it's the same repetitive whining from a select few that feel the need to shout louder (and shit harder, LOL) that has just worn me out.

So instead, I focus on enjoying my local Viper club and other events such as NVE that was an over the top good time with my Viper brothers. Great to see you, looking forward getting together again soon. I'm at 9,200 miles and am about to go to my 5th track in this bad boy, Sonoma ("Sears Point") next weekend. Keep on Vipering Bruce.

Todd


I've met a few of the SRT staff, good guys. I don't blame them for not wanting to participate here on this (or any) forum. Even as a Gen 5 owner myself, I find it difficult at times to want to post about my car. I've been a member of numerous brand/model vehicle forums, and I've never seen a bigger bunch of haters, who wish to eat their young and hope that the car tanks in value and dies. I mean really? I thought this was a Viper Club? I've yet to met an actual Gen 5 owner that disliked the car, yet these negative people seem to think we owners regret buying them.

I'll admit I'm disappointed with a lot of things Dodge/SRT has or hasn't done well. But, I still enjoy the car itself. That is what the haters don't understand.

Thanks for sharing those thoughts guys, and I hope they will resonate with those who really need to find a way to contribute constructively, or not contribute at all. I know you both are experiencing the Gen V in ways few others ever will, and want to share that, and your passion, with everyone that wants to know this car better. I deal with the problem by using the Ignore List, and it's interesting to note that just about everyone I've put on it has stopped posting within a matter of weeks. At least I haven't had to deal with their nonsense while waiting for them to get bored and move on... or be banned. If everyone did that and stopped replying to their worthless posts they would surely move on a lot more quickly. (Deb and I had a blast with you and May on the weekend Todd...have a great time at the track. Let me know when you're coming to Ontario...I want to get you in an upcoming TA track video as I attempt to set a production car track record at Mosport after Kuno gives me a few pointers!)

[05Commemorative]

This is so true.


Ok so you saw a non running clay model and some pictures. You haven't driven one or a gen IV for that matter. Austin my comment to you on the phone was tongue in cheek and I was referring to shared components not experience.

I guess what is frustrating is that I have now owned three generations of Viper and put a lot of miles on all of them. I tend to mod them, drive them, and race them. Each generation offers a unique and significant advancement in the evolution of the Viper.

When I had a gen three I didn't think a gen 4 was a significant improvement due to the fact that everything was the same except for the power and drive train. Then I bought a gen 4 and realized just how much better the car was due to those seemingly small improvements. Now the gen five offers to me and this is just my opinion improvements in styling, power train (small improvement), interior, weight, and overall build quality. Just like the gen four its the aggregate of all of the small improvements that makes the large advancement.

I have been happy with every Viper I have owned, it's the only platform that I have ever purchased successive models.

[05Commemorative]

You actually are bashing the car without even knowing it.

second, the post above and the enhancements were all things prior owners asked for. We were asked multiple times and they responded. Stop with the nonsense they only listened to the Porsche crowd. You know better and this goes to the point of this post in general. posting stuff that is not true that is negative is not helpful. I know you love the car and would love to have one. Drive the car for goodness sake. You would be amazed of how different if feels compared to prior versions.


YES. I was at the unveiling and Ive been out to Tomball numerous times. Dude, you yourself even said on the phone the other night that it was basically a re-skinned GEN IV! I love the GEN V and would buy one RIGHT NOW, ZERO QUESTIONS ASKED if I had the coin. Im NOT bashing the GEN V. No need to get so defensive.

[Nine Ball]

If SRT truly wanted to cater to the Porsche/Ferrari/Lambo guys, they failed. Why? Because they would have put a torque-less puny engine in the car, added $100K to the pricetag, and made the car look feminine and weak. I'm glad they failed, in that regard :)

Bruce, maybe what VOA could do is create a private Gen 5 forum, for those with confirmed ownership, and are VOA paid members. Then SRT could get some one-on-one feedback and discussion with actual owners of the car. Trolls would have to spend $100K to buy-in.

[plumcrazy]

Bruce, maybe what VOA could do is create a private Gen 5 forum, for those with confirmed ownership, and are VOA paid members. Then SRT could get some one-on-one feedback and discussion with actual owners of the car

not saying this would change the world but it might be a good idea.

[FLATOUT]

not saying this would change the world but it might be a good idea.

It's sounds sad lol but that would be nice.

One big thing non gen V owners don't seem to be picking up on is the overwhelming positive responses gen V owners are having with the cars. That should mean something, if all of these guys who bought them seem to love them so much maybe there's more to the redesign than I thought.

[canadian viper]

not saying this would change the world but it might be a good idea.

agree

[Nine Ball]

It's sounds sad lol but that would be nice.

One big thing non gen V owners don't seem to be picking up on is the overwhelming positive responses gen V owners are having with the cars. That should mean something, if all of these guys who bought them seem to love them so much maybe there's more to the redesign than I thought.

Andy, even you were a critic that leaned a little on the negative side of the fence, until you bought one. Perfect example, you simply didn't know what you were missing. At least you were civil about it, unlike many others on these sites.

[Canadian venom]

If SRT truly wanted to cater to the Porsche/Ferrari/Lambo guys, they failed. Why? Because they would have put a torque-less puny engine in the car, added $100K to the pricetag, and made the car look feminine and weak. I'm glad they failed, in that regard :)

Bruce, maybe what VOA could do is create a private Gen 5 forum, for those with confirmed ownership, and are VOA paid members. Then SRT could get some one-on-one feedback and discussion with actual owners of the car. Trolls would have to spend $100K to buy-in.

Even if I'm not a Gen 5 owner, I think this might be a good idea to bring SRT back in and this special forum should be for everyone to see but, like Nine Ball suggested, only confirmed Gen 5 owner could post. No haters, and those on the fence to buy one could read only positive things about the car itself.

[Simms]

Bruce, maybe what VOA could do is create a private Gen 5 forum, for those with confirmed ownership, and are VOA paid members. Then SRT could get some one-on-one feedback and discussion with actual owners of the car. Trolls would have to spend $100K to buy-in.

Is enjoy that!

[BlknBlu]

Dodge/SRT watches the forum and can weed thru the comments of who knows the car and who just sees it on paper. It is unfortunate that there is a lot of negativity towards the new car. The GEN 5 owners have spoken out on how they like the car and it is evident in thier posts. This is a Viper forum and we need to embrace the car here, not bash it. We realize folks want to speak freely about the good and the bad, but it needs to come from experience, not statistics on a piece of paper. If speaking bad of the car is someone's idea of saving the brqand and inviting new people to Experience Viper, you are wrong.

The GEN 5 is an incredible car and at the price point is UNMATCHED.

Bruce

[sambo32]

I am on my second Gen V, a orange TA, and absolutely no disappointment here. To me its a true sports car and like all Gen V owners are saying, its an impressive piece of machinery. Every time I take my TA out, I stop traffic in all directions because people just stare and take pictures of the car. 640HP naturally aspirated, how many car companies can achieve that with reliability.

[SNKEBIT]

if srt truly wanted to cater to the porsche/ferrari/lambo guys, they failed. Why? Because they would have put a torque-less puny engine in the car, added $100k to the pricetag, and made the car look feminine and weak. I'm glad they failed, in that regard :)

bruce, maybe what voa could do is create a private gen 5 forum, for those with confirmed ownership, and are voa paid members. Then srt could get some one-on-one feedback and discussion with actual owners of the car. Trolls would have to spend $100k to buy-in.


^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[ViperSmith]

If SRT truly wanted to cater to the Porsche/Ferrari/Lambo guys, they failed. Why? Because they would have put a torque-less puny engine in the car, added $100K to the pricetag, and made the car look feminine and weak. I'm glad they failed, in that regard :)

Bruce, maybe what VOA could do is create a private Gen 5 forum, for those with confirmed ownership, and are VOA paid members. Then SRT could get some one-on-one feedback and discussion with actual owners of the car. Trolls would have to spend $100K to buy-in.

Suggested this a LONNNNG time ago.

I think the Gen V forum needs to be more about ownership experiences. What about a separate forum for "Future Vipers" where people who aren't in the market can continue to talk in circles about the future of the car? As Todd and you have said, as I've said, this place isn't fun. The childish Alley style trolling isn't "fun" either. Hell, someone posts they are selling their car and someone comes in and tells him he is asking $5k too much. That is preposterous.

So many are convinced the Viper is dead now in 2015, I am unsure why they are still concerned about the Gen V at this point. It is like they are arguing with clouds.

[F2V]

...Bruce, maybe what VOA could do is create a private Gen 5 forum, for those with confirmed ownership, and are VOA paid members. Then SRT could get some one-on-one feedback and discussion with actual owners of the car. Trolls would have to spend $100K to buy-in.

Well put Tony, best comment I've seen on the G5 board since opening day here! I truely hope the folks in charge make this happen, and happen fast!!

My interest here has been waning the past several months, and I'm almost out the door. Having put an initial deposit on my G5 DEC 2010, all the way up to today, adding approx $50k+ along the way to enhance this fantastic car I love... nuff said I guess, I'm hugely annoyed and disheartened!

I always thought the VOA would get a handle on the G5 bash bandwagon, originally started by the VCA G5 board. Following Nine Balls suggestion would be a big step in the right direction, and an added bonus, seperating us from them...not to mention Dodge/SRT support.

[SLViper]

Suggested this a LONNNNG time ago.

I think the Gen V forum needs to be more about ownership experiences. What about a separate forum for "Future Vipers" where people who aren't in the market can continue to talk in circles about the future of the car? As Todd and you have said, as I've said, this place isn't fun. The childish Alley style trolling isn't "fun" either. Hell, someone posts they are selling their car and someone comes in and tells him he is asking $5k too much. That is preposterous.

So many are convinced the Viper is dead now in 2015, I am unsure why they are still concerned about the Gen V at this point. It is like they are arguing with clouds.

Yes that will fix the problem, write off the the last of us who are, were potential buyers! Great Idea. Nothing wrong with the product, marketing, pricing, options etc,, must be something wrong with the "buying public"
Why are we still here you ask? I guess I like most others I cant help but watch a slow motion train wreck and the aftermath.

[BlknBlu]

A private forum would keep potential new owners from reviews of the car and limit the audience. We need to change the culture of members and speak positive and have constructive criticism of the car and not just ramble to be heard. This goes for all Vipers not just the GEN 5.

Bruce

[Nine Ball]

A private forum would keep potential new owners from reviews of the car and limit the audience. We need to change the culture of members and speak positive and have constructive criticism of the car and not just ramble to be heard. This goes for all Vipers not just the GEN 5.

Bruce

Not going to happen. These same haters will sing the praises about the Gen 5 once they buy their first Gen 5 cars, third-hand. Might take a few years.

[Eachey51]

A private forum might be a good idea for gen V owners, but what about the enthusiasts? I am completly in love with the gen V! I don't understand why people bash it do much. Its the most beautiful car i have ever saw and i love evrything it stands for! Who cares if it isnt the fastest or if it doesnt have the most power? We can brag about the most all motor torque tho :). Its about the quality of the car and how it makes u feal and the driving experience. N i have never driven one or even gotten a ride but i still strongly believe its the best car ever! I guess what i am saying is a private forum would ban guys like me who may never afford the 100k buy in. I love the car as much as any owner and i love to read everything i can about said car! Lets just have a constructive forum all us gen V fans and owners can poor over! Sorry about the passionate rant. Im out..

[ViperSmith]

Yes that will fix the problem, write off the the last of us who are, were potential buyers! Great Idea. Nothing wrong with the product, marketing, pricing, options etc,, must be something wrong with the "buying public"
Why are we still here you ask? I guess I like most others I cant help but watch a slow motion train wreck and the aftermath.

How much longer do we need to talk about their marketing failures in 2013? Or how the production was delayed? I mean, do we really need to rehash that in 90% of the threads in here?

Plus, I never suggested a forum no one but owners can post to. Prospective buyers should be able to post and ask questions.

As Nine Ball, VENOM V, and FV2 have said - this place just isn't fun for people that actually own the cars. If thats the direction the VOA wants to take the Gen V forum - a place where owners don't want to post about their ownership experiences, yet people with an axe to endlessly grind can continue to grind it at will - then fine, their prerogative.

When you have multiple people that actually own the vehicle, that were posting a lot, telling you they aren't posting anymore because the atmosphere from "fellow" Viper owners is constantly negative, perhaps people need to actually look at what is happening.

I get window shoppers all the time in my line of work. "If you add XYZ features, I'll buy it." You add the features, and they aren't there with their checkbooks. So, perhaps I am a bit empathetic to why all the noise is just that, noise.

[Shooter]

I think it's a great idea. Then all of the sensitive Gen V owners can sit around in a big circle jerk, and tell each other what a great car they bought. I like it.

[Nine Ball]

I think it's a great idea. Then all of the sensitive Gen V owners can sit around in a big circle jerk with the SRT peeps, and tell each other what a great car they bought, but things that could improve. I like it.

Fixed. :)

[ACRucrazy]

A private forum would keep potential new owners from reviews of the car and limit the audience. We need to change the culture of members and speak positive and have constructive criticism of the car and not just ramble to be heard. This goes for all Vipers not just the GEN 5.

Bruce

Rep.

[F2V]

A private forum would keep potential new owners from reviews of the car and limit the audience. We need to change the culture of members and speak positive and have constructive criticism of the car and not just ramble to be heard. This goes for all Vipers not just the GEN 5.

Bruce
As mentioned elsewhere,make it so anyone can view, only owners post. Any serious questions from potential owners can be posted on general board, and answered there. As for changing the culture here...utopian dreaming.

[FLATOUT]

I think it's a great idea. Then all of the sensitive Gen V owners can sit around in a big circle jerk, and tell each other what a great car they bought. I like it.

Although I don't honestly think a main private forum for the Gen V is a good idea, it would be nice to have a private subforum that SRT engineers would be interested in posting in. Viewable by all.

I guess the strange culture issue here isn't that gen V owners are sensitive, it's has more to do with other gen owners trolling the Gen V forum. After awhile you just get tired of it. Take for instance my dyno thread and it didn't get out of hand or anything but I almost chose not to post anything because I felt like it would some how degrade into a Gen 4/5 pissing contest about dyno numbers, when what I really wanted to discuss was what the ECU may or may not be doing above 5,000 rpm. I was hoping to really discuss the issue with other owners but instead it ended up being more of a comparison thread between my old Gen 4 numbers and my Gen 5.

I don't see Gen V owners going into the Gen 3/4 or Gen 1/2 forums and talking down to those owners, or the platforms that they own. That's the biggest issue for me. I try to treat all Viper guys equally.

[FLATOUT]

Take for instance the Gen V intake manifold thread in the Gen 3/4 forum. You don't see a bunch of Gen V owners jumping in that thread and digging on people about adding something from the new car to an older generation. Guys are extremely supportive and technical in that discussion and that thread now has over 20K views.

I want to see more good tech stuff in the Gen V board but I think some people decide to just pull away because anytime information like that gets posted it just gets picked apart by owners of other generations.

[Shooter]

Take for instance the Gen V intake manifold thread in the Gen 3/4 forum. You don't see a bunch of Gen V owners jumping in that thread and digging on people about adding something from the new car to an older generation. Guys are extremely supportive and technical in that discussion and that thread now has over 20K views.

I want to see more good tech stuff in the Gen V board but I think some people decide to just pull away because anytime information like that gets posted it just gets picked apart by owners of other generations.

Lets go do some pulls this weekend. You can video your car pullin on my ACR. Post it here. That's about the best I can do as a Gen IV owner to make you feel loved :)

[Bruce H.]

Bruce, maybe what VOA could do is create a private Gen 5 forum, for those with confirmed ownership, and are VOA paid members. Then SRT could get some one-on-one feedback and discussion with actual owners of the car. Trolls would have to spend $100K to buy-in.

There's a lot of appeal to that ideal, which is rather unfortunate. When I was doing my Gen V research it was invaluable being able to ask specific questions of owners like yourself at a time when the car was still so new that a lot of detailed owner feedback wasn't very plentiful. Now that feedback is well documented, if you know how to search for it, I rarely even see questions being asked by prospective buyers. Hopefully that is because they are spending their forum time reading and learning from those in the know, rather than spending their time posting about what we typically see here.

The Gen V in some ways is a victim of its own success, not in the showroom perhaps, but in its world class quality, styling, fit and finish, comfort and performance. Each Gen before it was the ultimate Viper, and the Gen V is now. That's hard to accept for many, and so is the higher cost of admission that many previous Gen owners simply can't afford, or perhaps justify. SRT improved its performance with continued refinement to the driveline and underpinnings as they'd done in the past, but recognized they had to make wholesale upgrades in materials, features, and fit and finish to compete in today's exotic supercar market that it is firmly a part of. Those investments and costs are all reflected in the MSRP, as would be predicted sales and a profit margin, and while the price did increase, it is an absolute bargain for what you get, and among competitors in the exotic supercar catagory. I think SRT would have known and regretted that they were out-pricing the Gen V from many of the Viper faithful, but that would have been unavoidable given the challenge of upgrading the car for today's market.

The new car itself is an unqualified success, and hopefully it will be in the showroom in time, and we're seeing the back lash in the forums to some of those decisions, and from those feeling disenfranchised by them. This happens in other brands also when the new and better version comes out, and I saw it years ago when the last Gen Supra TT came out. The previous Gen guys ragged on the new one, idolized which ever one they owned at the time, but the only one that's been worth anything for years is the last one they ragged on. I finally sold mine last week for $42,500, $10,000 more than I paid for it used 15 year and 30,000 miles ago. I thought I'd have keep it forever, but couldn't see ever wanting to drive it again now that I have the Gen V.

Hopefully some posters can get over whatever their particular issue is with the car and contribute more constructively. That doesn't mean you have to love things about the car that you don't, but it does mean not ruining it for those of us who come here to learn, share and enjoy the Gen V experience.

[FLATOUT]

Lets go do some pulls this weekend. You can video your car pullin on my ACR. Post it here. That's about the best I can do as a Gen IV owner to make you feel loved :)

haha

[Chorps]

How much longer do we need to talk about their marketing failures in 2013? Or how the production was delayed? I mean, do we really need to rehash that in 90% of the threads in here?

I bet this is the main reason on why Chrysler peeps won't identify themselves here. It may be water under the bridge at this point, but ducking the conversation back then didn't answer any questions about why such big screwups happened in the first place.

Just look at Hennessey. He's never fully owned up to his massive screw ups and people here keep dogging him to this day. Not saying that the Gen V launch problems were anywhere near what JH had done to his customers (marks), but answering with silence makes people yell even louder.

I think you're right though, it is time to let the screw ups go and move forward, but it will come up again and again simply because it is now a part of the Viper history. Forum peeps don't have to bring it up, but I bet half of the buyers of competitive brands know about some of the launch difficulties and are curious about what actually happened. Tiring for others to keep bringing it up in every other Gen V thread.

[Disturbed]

SRT here is what I feel is *still* wrong with the car. I don't mean this in anyway disrespectful or rude just my personal findings after drive 3 Gen5's. I have been a Viper owner for 13 years.

1.) Missing power (should have come with 700hp anyway). It doesn't feel any more powerful than a Gen4 and the dyno numbers back it up.
2.) High AIT temps (possibly related to 1).
3.) Locked up ECU.
4.) Busting rear hatch glass.
5.) Brakes used from 2003 (ok you did upgrade rotors/pads but not size or pistons).
6.) Hot side sills (better but still gets too hot).
7.) Goofy petal placement/goofy hight/goofy adjustments.
8.) Lack of lumbar support.
9.) No vert (or Targa as I prefer).
10.) No telescope steering wheel.
11.) radio always turning on when the car starts (u-connect issue).
12.) No seat hight adjustment.
13.) 19 speaker sound system that still doesn't have a great sound.
14.) Why no "No lift shift".
15.) Crash over bumps.
16.) Same Steel Frame from 2003 (minor change with "x-brace")

I could keep going on but you get my point. While the car isn't bad it's pretty good....it just has so much room for improvement. I really feel the car just was re-skinned and a new interior (both are fantastic). I don't think its that great of a improvement over the Gen4 to justify the price. But I have to admit the cruise control is the best feature next to the CF panels.

Keep trying you will get it right at some point. If I may plead for a few features I would like.

1.) Hellcat brakes with C/C Rotors.
2.) twin turbos. (Or. SC would be cool too).
3.) Drag Race launch mode.
4.) dry sump.
5.) Aluminum frame.
6.) Active exhaust system.
7.) unpainted all CF parts...show it off CF is sexy and tough!

To fix the side-sills heat, petal placement, and aid in handing. "Simply" move the trans to a trans-axle and put it in rear of the car.

As much as I hate to admit it one of the 8sp autos or a DTC type trans needs to be an option.

[ViperSmith]

I bet this is the main reason on why Chrysler peeps won't identify themselves here. It may be water under the bridge at this point, but ducking the conversation back then didn't answer any questions about why such big screwups happened in the first place.

Just look at Hennessey. He's never fully owned up to his massive screw ups and people here keep dogging him to this day. Not saying that the Gen V launch problems were anywhere near what JH had done to his customers (marks), but answering with silence makes people yell even louder.

I think you're right though, it is time to let the screw ups go and move forward, but it will come up again and again simply because it is now a part of the Viper history. Forum peeps don't have to bring it up, but I bet half of the buyers of competitive brands know about some of the launch difficulties and are curious about what actually happened. Tiring for others to keep bringing it up in every other Gen V thread.

To be fair, Ralph has acknowledged the issues, even dealer issues in several interviews. I think the latest autoline he was in he got on the subject.

[mikesax]

As I've mentioned previously, I bought my first Viper-a 2010 vert-off a VERY POSITIVE Road and Track article 4 years ago-NEVER heard of the Viper Club prior to that!!!! Also. I'm NOT a die hard racer-but I LOVE the Viper heritage when it comes to the track!! This car should be CELEBRATED in my opinion-EVERYTHING about it is "TOP NOTCH"!! I "entertain" myself with the forums-get an education as well as some incredible insight-I REALLY CAN'T FATHOM ALL THE NEGATIVITY!!!!!!! Every Viper has something to offer-they ALL look Amazing to me!! Could look a little "MEANER"-could have a little more "horsepower"-could be a little "less expensive": this list is not endless but it is subjective! To me, it's an INCREDIBLE car-exclusive and appropriately priced!! The more I look at it-the more I like/love it!! Would be nice to have a forum of owners who post up images and insights that have to do with their daily experiences and enjoyment: that to me is what the VOA is about!! Loved looking at the recent photos of the get together at CAAP and Prefix- that is the essence of this club!! Amazing owners with "rockin" cars getting together and enjoying their "Vipers"!! ENJOY THE RIDE!! DOES NOT LAST FOREVER!!!!!









e

[plumcrazy]

i think a gen5 forum for owners and SRT where the enthusiasts can read is great. maybe let enthusiasts post but the mods keep a VERY TIGHT leash on them in that forum. a 3 strikes and youre out of that sub forum ?

[BlknBlu]

i think a gen5 forum for owners and SRT where the enthusiasts can read is great. maybe let enthusiasts post but the mods keep a VERY TIGHT leash on them in that forum. a 3 strikes and youre out of that sub forum ?

I know the car is new, but the same could be said for the GEN 1,2 and GEN 3,4 forums. Speculation over fact is what causes the problem.

Bruce

[RAY W]

Pretty sure by now Dodge/SRT realizes their mistakes. Like children who take over a great business that refuse to learn what got them there or no longer had the guidance from the founder. There is no easy way out now. I think 2015 should be cancelled and a race pcm should be introduced to help with sales. Blow out 5000 Hellcats @ 60K for a year to prevent price gouging. Don't get greedy and try 70K it won't happen.

A clear future path needs to be announced from Dodge for the Viper. If it's over end it. If there is to be a convertible or ACR say when and how much. If there is going to be a power upgrade, auto trans or an engine change say so and when. So many people are passing up a great opportunity to own the best Viper ever while hoping for something that is probably not going to come.

[Space Truckin]

i think a gen5 forum for owners and SRT where the enthusiasts can read is great. maybe let enthusiasts post but the mods keep a VERY TIGHT leash on them in that forum. a 3 strikes and youre out of that sub forum ?

I don't know if allowing "enthusiast" to post in a GenV owner forum would be ideal (no REAL experience w the Snake) JM2C

[ACRucrazy]

Blocking non V owners or non members from posting in a section doesn't solve anything. Proper moderation and culture is needed.

[ViperSmith]

I don't know if allowing "enthusiast" to post in a GenV owner forum would be ideal (no REAL experience w the Snake) JM2C

Disagree, prospective buyers, people who aren't members, etc.

[RAY W]

How about Gen V owners putting their car in their signature. You can decide what value a poster brings based on the car they actually have experience with. Inclusion not Exclusion.

[tiki240]

SRT here is what I feel is *still* wrong with the car. I don't mean this in anyway disrespectful or rude just my personal findings after drive 3 Gen5's. I have been a Viper owner for 13 years.


3.) Locked up ECU.


12.) No seat hight adjustment.


13.) 19 speaker sound system that still doesn't have a great sound.




3.) Locked up ECU.
-Agree

12.) No seat hight adjustment.
-My '13 GTS has height adjustment...

13.) 19 speaker sound system that still doesn't have a great sound.
-18* Speaker system, and sounds much better if you are inclined to fiddle with the EQ. Also, the latency from source, sample rate, and format all play gigantic factors when you start getting into high-end audio. If you have the chance, try downloading some 320kbps mp3s to an SD card and using the cars media playback.. its night and day from BT streaming pandora.

[commandomatt]

A clear future path needs to be announced from Dodge for the Viper. If it's over end it. If there is to be a convertible or ACR say when and how much. If there is going to be a power upgrade, auto trans or an engine change say so and when. So many people are passing up a great opportunity to own the best Viper ever while hoping for something that is probably not going to come.

Great post. As much as we wanted transparency from our club, is it to much to ask to get some from the car manufacturer we have supported over the years ? Tell us whats in the pipeline...if anything. Silence will make many go elsewhere rather than waiting for something worth while

I don't personally think that creating an 'exclusive' section on the forum will do much. Well maybe for the GenV owners that aren't comfortable and secure enough with their purchase. If you bought one, and absolutely love it...then why are you worried about someone talking trash about it ? That will happen regardless of what car you have. There are always some that cant agree with it. Get over it. Don't take it personally

Same goes for the SRT guys. If they cant handle criticism, they should not be in the business they are in. Dodge set the bar very high with the Viper many years ago and once you are used to being on top, its hard to accept anything less. I am not saying that the Gen V isn't a good car. I am sure its the best Viper to date. Unfortunately (or not) the competition is fierce and the other manufacturers keep raising the bar.

SRT should really listen to the critics. Sure, some are overly repetitive and keep talking about the same things over and over but the fact is that someone that owns a Gen V has already been converted....they decided with their wallets and hopefully they are happy (most appear to be). So SRT need to listen and try to figure out what it will take to sell more cars...to get the critics silenced. I don't think that SRT is happy with the sales to date and sitting around talking to Gen V owners may not do much to better those numbers. To get more current Viper owners to want to own one, could dramatically change the sales numbers. Sales will ultimately ensure survival. At this point, they way things look...I am not sure that are many that are confident that the Viper being around in the next few years is a sure thing

[Bruce H.]

Great post. As much as we wanted transparency from our club, is it to much to ask to get some from the car manufacturer we have supported over the years ? Tell us whats in the pipeline...if anything. Silence will make many go elsewhere rather than waiting for something worth while

They don't discuss future product, like it or not, that's what it is. The car is very worthwhile now, although there will always be those who would never be satisfied, and it's obvious SRT isn't chasing after them, particularly when many want their wish list filled at a much lower price.
I don't personally think that creating an 'exclusive' section on the forum will do much. Well maybe for the GenV owners that aren't comfortable and secure enough with their purchase. If you bought one, and absolutely love it...then why are you worried about someone talking trash about it ? That will happen regardless of what car you have. There are always some that cant agree with it. Get over it. Don't take it personally

Typical that it would be suggested that owners not being comfortable with their purchase is the real problem, and not the constant bashing of previous Gen owners that can't get over their issues with it.

Same goes for the SRT guys. If they cant handle criticism, they should not be in the business they are in. Dodge set the bar very high with the Viper many years ago and once you are used to being on top, its hard to accept anything less. I am not saying that the Gen V isn't a good car. I am sure its the best Viper to date. Unfortunately (or not) the competition is fierce and the other manufacturers keep raising the bar.

They seem to handle criticism very well, and have pushed themselves to build not only the best Viper ever, but one that performs at the top of not only its exotic supercar class, but every class. They must really question the value in participating again in a forum where so many previous Gen members act like they know so much more than they do, and mostly want to rehash the past. They've been there and done that. I doubt they'd see an upside to it if they know they can't build what the critics want, and everyone else already loves the car. If they came on here and said they will not increase power on the current 8.4 for durability and reliability reasons, and they are unable to unlock the computer for other reasons, I wonder how that would go over? I can just imagine the endless arguments and disagreements.

RT should really listen to the critics. Sure, some are overly repetitive and keep talking about the same things over and over but the fact is that someone that owns a Gen V has already been converted....they decided with their wallets and hopefully they are happy (most appear to be). So SRT need to listen and try to figure out what it will take to sell more cars...to get the critics silenced. I don't think that SRT is happy with the sales to date and sitting around talking to Gen V owners may not do much to better those numbers. To get more current Viper owners to want to own one, could dramatically change the sales numbers. Sales will ultimately ensure survival. At this point, they way things look...I am not sure that are many that are confident that the Viper being around in the next few years is a sure thing

You're dreaming to think the critics will ever be silenced, or that it's possible for them to ever be given all that they want at a price they'd be willing to pay. Time has moved on, reality changed, and many are stuck in the past waiting for their version of history to repeat itself. In their world the best Viper ever isn't good enough. They want it to be so over the top that it will beat all future competion before they're even built. They live in an alternate universe...and it sounds like you live with them.

[TwinVipers]

Wow, so this is what is has come down to! Create your own sub forum where no one can say anything that you perceive negative as not to get your feelings hurt! Is this the VCA all over again with special little clicks? Get over yourselves you big fat babies!! Woa is me, they dont like my car, wahhhh.. for years the gen 3/4 viper owners took shit from the gen 2 guys about how ugly the car is and far worse things. Nobody recommended then to alienate those who didnt have a gen 3/4. This is by far the most ridiculous idea I've ever seen touted around a car club. Yeah, Let's split the club up by those who have and dont have a certain year car. What a fing joke!

[ACRucrazy]

You have Gen V owners complaining about no tuning options.
You have Gen V owners complaining about no aftermarket support.
You have Gen V owners complaining about the Hellcat.
You have Gen V owners complaining the brakes are a decade old.
You have Gen V owners complaining of exhaust drone.
You have Gen V owners complaining about gearing.
You have Gen V owners swapping transmissions to an older version.
You have Gen V owners without their car for nearly 2 months getting repairs.
You have Gen V owners with back windows exploding.
You have Gen V owners wanting their own secret forum.
You have Gen V owners who put down less horsepower than a 5-6 year old Viper.
And you have Gen V owners getting upset because others others are not willing to shell out 100k plus to have a Viper that you can't tune, might shatter glass, might be in the shop for weeks, might set a CEL with header or exhaust and might make less rwhp than their IV counterpart.

But hey, it rides better and has a nice interior. If we all don't jump on board we are haters, non believers, or poor bastards who can't afford one.

If the V launched with 700+ HP none of this would be a problem. The issue is it barely beats an older Viper, barely beats an older Vette. Sure it looks nice. Sure it drives nice. Sure the interior is much improved. The fact is the market has spoken. And some of you V owners can't handle that it seems.

Give me one reason I should give up my IV for one? A nicer interior, ride and 20, 30, or 40k on top doesn't cut it. If it came with an extra 100+rwhp the discussion would be different.

[TwinVipers]

Hey, the interior alone was almost enough for me to make the switch! Almost ;) It is beautiful and long overdue!! You see, there is no vitriol as far as I'm concerned! I love some aspects of the gen 5, and that's ok. This is America last time I checked! We dont all have to agree, as long as we keep it civil, no one should be getting their panties in a bunch over opinions!

[05Commemorative]

Come on now, Gen4 owners have almost the exact same complaints. (tuning/aftermarket/brakes/drone/gearing...). So, your unique item was the rear window which was on early production cars. Wow.

Then, the funniest thing of all, you suggest 60hp more solves all those problems. If you have not driven one, you are really fooling yourself into thinking the differences are minor.

You guys do remember the TA beat the ACR times on a track and the GTS was super close to the TA, both of which had far less downforce in addition to being on what most believe to be inferior tires. Think about that for a minute, then keep telling yourself not much different.


You have Gen V owners complaining about no tuning options.
You have Gen V owners complaining about no aftermarket support.
You have Gen V owners complaining about the Hellcat.
You have Gen V owners complaining the brakes are a decade old.
You have Gen V owners complaining of exhaust drone.
You have Gen V owners complaining about gearing.
You have Gen V owners swapping transmissions to an older version.
You have Gen V owners without their car for nearly 2 months getting repairs.
You have Gen V owners with back windows exploding.
You have Gen V owners wanting their own secret forum.
You have Gen V owners who put down less horsepower than a 5-6 year old Viper.
And you have Gen V owners getting upset because others others are not willing to shell out 100k plus to have a Viper that you can't tune, might shatter glass, might be in the shop for weeks, might set a CEL with header or exhaust and might make less rwhp than their IV counterpart.

But hey, it rides better and has a nice interior. If we all don't jump on board we are haters, non believers, or poor bastards who can't afford one.

If the V launched with 700+ HP none of this would be a problem. The issue is it barely beats an older Viper, barely beats an older Vette. Sure it looks nice. Sure it drives nice. Sure the interior is much improved. The fact is the market has spoken. And some of you V owners can't handle that it seems.

Give me one reason I should give up my IV for one? A nicer interior, ride and 20, 30, or 40k on top doesn't cut it. If it came with an extra 100+rwhp the discussion would be different.

[05Commemorative]

oh, to answer your question for reasons:

Interior, car quality inside and out, electronics and features, better handling, much better looking, lighter, faster, smoother, lighter. The list goes on and on. Honestly, no brainer upgrade if you have the money and like the look better. If you like the gen3/4 look better, then one should stick with that but that would be the only thing that would be better (if you liked that look).

So, many reasons. Drive one for a day. drive one for a week if possible and you will quickly get it. If you had both in your garage, I think you would quickly find yourself having no reason or desire to drive your Gen4. It is that good.


You have Gen V owners complaining about no tuning options.
You have Gen V owners complaining about no aftermarket support.
You have Gen V owners complaining about the Hellcat.
You have Gen V owners complaining the brakes are a decade old.
You have Gen V owners complaining of exhaust drone.
You have Gen V owners complaining about gearing.
You have Gen V owners swapping transmissions to an older version.
You have Gen V owners without their car for nearly 2 months getting repairs.
You have Gen V owners with back windows exploding.
You have Gen V owners wanting their own secret forum.
You have Gen V owners who put down less horsepower than a 5-6 year old Viper.
And you have Gen V owners getting upset because others others are not willing to shell out 100k plus to have a Viper that you can't tune, might shatter glass, might be in the shop for weeks, might set a CEL with header or exhaust and might make less rwhp than their IV counterpart.

But hey, it rides better and has a nice interior. If we all don't jump on board we are haters, non believers, or poor bastards who can't afford one.

If the V launched with 700+ HP none of this would be a problem. The issue is it barely beats an older Viper, barely beats an older Vette. Sure it looks nice. Sure it drives nice. Sure the interior is much improved. The fact is the market has spoken. And some of you V owners can't handle that it seems.

Give me one reason I should give up my IV for one? A nicer interior, ride and 20, 30, or 40k on top doesn't cut it. If it came with an extra 100+rwhp the discussion would be different.

[SWEEN]

The title of this thread is "Posting Vitriol discourages team viper participation". You realize if Motor Trend didn't criticize the GTS so bad the T/A would have never came out?

As far as I've been following the forums the Viper has always been bashed. Gen 3/4 because of looks and that there was no racing program. SRT clearly listened went back to the curves and got back into racing. I think criticizing the viper is crucial to the refresh (which Dodge has publicly stated is coming in 2015).

Around 2008 I went to Palo Alto Concors de elegance, I was a junior in high school. I was so excited to see the new ACR. I was saying all the facts about it the guy at the booth was impressed and saw I was so happy he let me sit in it and invited me to a VCA event. That guy was Maurice Liang. Really grateful for it and it left a lasting impression on me. All the viper owners we so nice to me, really motivated me to be successful to be one of them.

Now I'm 22 graduated college and working to get my CPA and even got my little viper fund. I've always wanted a viper so bad, I want to make sure there still around in a couple of years so I can buy one lol

So you can say that I haven't driven a Gen V and I have no idea what I'm talking about, that's fair. But not letting people post that don't own the car won't get sales up. Don't you people want to continue, be a proper viper and be unanimously #1? You might say that it already is, but with the Z06 coming out, NSX etc, SRT has to be on their toes. I think that's why people post so much criticism because they care. But what do I know I'm just a Troll who needs a 100K buy in.

[ACRucrazy]

T

....

To clarify, the brief time I had in the TA this last weekend I really liked it. I would love to spend more time with a Gen V. It felt great!

I'm not suggesting 60 hp would solve everything, I'm suggesting if the V had 100+ more rwhp than the IV you can bet your ass you would see more owners jump into a V. However, the V puts down the same power to the rear wheels, sometimes less than a IV. So I'm suggesting that in itself may be why you are seeing less owners make the switch. That and notice how 707 is making the internet go batshit crazy right now..

I don't think the V is a bad car at all. I think it's awesome. I'd love to own one. Ar the same time I dont think the IV is a bad car at all. And if I were shopping, to get a IV that puts down the same power and I can toss a PCM in it, many buyers may go that route at half the price. That and having IV ACR and IV convertible as an option gives more reasons for owners to either keep theirs or buy those used.

What id love to see is some of the V owners order up some ported heads, 5 into one headers, toss a pulley on it, gears and a clutch and see what kind of power and times they put down. That or just sit on the sidelines and wait for the vaporware PCM.

[FLATOUT]

We can't do any of those things without the PCM not sure what people don't understand about that. As soon as the PCM is available we'll be doing all of the same mods to the gen V that we did to the 4's.

"If" they ever go on sale (PCM).

[F2V]

i think a gen5 forum for owners and SRT where the enthusiasts can read is great. maybe let enthusiasts post but the mods keep a VERY TIGHT leash on them in that forum. a 3 strikes and youre out of that sub forum ?

Better than what we have now Phil...would probably make SRT happy also.

"If" they ever go on sale (PCM)."

Flatout, I wouldn't be putting too much faith in that happening anytime, in the relatively near future...

[Coloviper]

Well, what FCA are probably worried about is the current frame is only rated to 700 HP and 700 TQ. One of the factory workers talked with me for about 30 mins going through the frame details, how it is built and sourced from a small family owned business down South US.

The torque is so much in the motor and how Viper uses it, that is all they can guarantee. That is probably the limiting factor holding it back from a manufacturer's durability point of view for massive power, I guess.

Either way, if we punted Trolls on impact, it would be a more friendly place. If owners of previous GENs would just be respectful of other GENs and not feel like they must defend their older GEN (equating to constantly measuring and reporting their dicks) it would be a more inviting place.

Most of the issue is self policing by ourselves. Just because some of us (me too in the past on some items) feel the need to point mistakes out, it really doesn't fix anything. Even the practice of saying what we feel they want, does nothing but create negativity. We can do better. GEN5 owners just want to be a part of the club and enjoy like the rest of us. How would feel if a family member constantly kept saying how bad your car was everyday (when it is an amazing car)? Not fun or encouraging.

Reality is we do have some pretty negative people in here. We all need to fight the urge as it really doesn't help our club. Maybe there should be a direct line or email address to SRT where everyone can provide their independent opinion on the car and direction in private. Let SRT comb the data send react.

[Jack B]

Very well stated . For one, I Have A a lot of new technical data on the G5, but, have not posted the data because it will turn into something other than constructive. I have six months of data logging and know quite a lot about the pcm. That info will not be posted in the current forum format.

One last comment, the G5 is an easy 10.5-10.6 car and that info will not be posted in the current forum format either.


Well, what FCA are probably worried about is the current frame is only rated to 700 HP and 700 TQ. One of the factory workers talked with me for about 30 mins going through the frame details, how it is built and sourced from a small family owned business down South US.

The torque is so much in the motor and how Viper uses it, that is all they can guarantee. That is probably the limiting factor holding it back from a manufacturer's durability point of view for massive power, I guess.

Either way, if we punted Trolls on impact, it would be a more friendly place. If owners of previous GENs would just be respectful of other GENs and not feel like they must defend their older GEN (equating to constantly measuring and reporting their dicks) it would be a more inviting place.

Most of the issue is self policing by ourselves. Just because some of us (me too in the past on some items) feel the need to point mistakes out, it really doesn't fix anything. Even the practice of saying what we feel they want, does nothing but create negativity. We can do better. GEN5 owners just want to be a part of the club and enjoy like the rest of us. How would feel if a family member constantly kept saying how bad your car was everyday (when it is an amazing car)? Not fun or encouraging.

Reality is we do have some pretty negative people in here. We all need to fight the urge as it really doesn't help our club. Maybe there should be a direct line or email address to SRT where everyone can provide their independent opinion on the car and direction in private. Let SRT comb the data send react.

[TwinVipers]

.

Either way, if we punted Trolls on impact, it would be a more friendly place. If owners of previous GENs would just be respectful of other GENs and not feel like they must defend their older GEN (equating to constantly measuring and reporting their dicks) it would be a more inviting place.

I disagree, it's the overly sensitive gen 5 owners who are constantly defending their newer purchase and feel the need to make it into a dick measuring contest by claiming everyone who didn't shit out a 100k for the car should have no say!

Reality is we do have some pretty negative people in here. We all need to fight the urge as it really doesn't help our club. Maybe there should be a direct line or email address to SRT where everyone can provide their independent opinion on the car and direction in private. Let SRT comb the data send react.

This bickering and bullshitting is nothing new! How many of you remember how nasty the debut was of the gen3? Or how about when the gen4 came out with same body? Why is this an issue of all a sudden? Are people making "negative comments" hindering you from enjoying your car? Did you buy the car for your enjoyment or for others to praise you and the car? Enjoy your cars and don't worry what anyone else thinks about your car! :drive:

[TwinVipers]

Very well stated . For one, I Have A a lot of new technical data on the G5, but, have not posted the data because it will turn into something other than constructive. I have six months of data logging and know quite a lot about the pcm. That info will not be posted in the current forum format.

One last comment, the G5 is an easy 10.5-10.6 car and that info will not be posted in the current forum format either.

I think you should share your imput! The gen 5 is no doubt a 10.5 car with the right tires of course! How fast have you gotten it with the 355s?

[ACRucrazy]

X
We can't do any of those things without the PCM not sure what people don't understand about that. As soon as the PCM is available we'll be doing all of the same mods to the gen V that we did to the 4's.

"If" they ever go on sale (PCM).

Why not. I recall a few modded IVs with a stock PCM.

[FLATOUT]

X

Why not. I recall a few modded IVs with a stock PCM.

Because these aren't gen IV's and have a diferent set of issues going on.

When the Gen V see's mods it's pulling timing and dumping fuel into the system. Most dyno's with the stock ECU's and headers are litterally only seeing 1hp gain lol. That ECU just freaks out when you start moving more air through the motor, hence why I have parts in the garage but haven't installed them yet.

[FLATOUT]

This bickering and bullshitting is nothing new! How many of you remember how nasty the debut was of the gen3? Or how about when the gen4 came out with same body? Why is this an issue of all a sudden? Are people making "negative comments" hindering you from enjoying your car? Did you buy the car for your enjoyment or for others to praise you and the car? Enjoy your cars and don't worry what anyone else thinks about your car! :drive:

It has more to do with how it is affecting sales, technical discussions, factory forum support. Just because everyone acted like asswhipes back then doesn't mean that we should continue the trend.

[BlknBlu]

The forums are working as designed in my opinion, it is just the behavior of some that does not support the VIper in any GEN. Criticism can be done constructive, but making remarks like complete fail, and SRT's fault or they do not know thier audience are just not true statements. This is a new car and a lot of new buyers. Our culture is allowing unsuppported rants to influence some negative comments on the Viper.

Live Long Viper

Bruce

[ACRucrazy]

Because these aren't gen IV's and have a diferent set of issues going on.

When the Gen V see's mods it's pulling timing and dumping fuel into the system. Most dyno's with the stock ECU's and headers are litterally only seeing 1hp gain lol. That ECU just freaks out when you start moving more air through the motor, hence why I have parts in the garage but haven't installed them yet.

Huh, I didn't realize that. With all the headers and gears Woodhouse appears to be doing, I assumed they were not an issue. I obviously see the need/desire for an offroad PCM.

[FLATOUT]

Huh, I didn't realize that. With all the headers and gears Woodhouse appears to be doing, I assumed they was not an issue. I obviously see the need/desire for an offroad PCM.

Yeah I don't know why guys are adding them at this point. I ran a guy that lives by me the other day that has a Gen V will full Balenger exhaust and I pulled him in my stock TA lol.

3.73's are helping but I can barely live with the 3.55's here in Houston cruising at 80+ on our freeways so not changing to the 3.73's. I think a lot of guys just order this stuff to tell people they have the parts on the car and then never actually go and dyno, or go to the track (posers if you will).

And if I'm wrong someone show me an independent owners car with a dyno graph.

[FLATOUT]

Here's some good evidence to look at:

Hennesey going from stock 547RWHP SAE to 554RWHP SAE with headers and a catback. So yes there is some gain but not like there should be, or like we saw on the Gen IV's. Difference is the ECU's. Yes it does pick up a little but it should be in the 25-30rwhp range not 7.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWjAKyAPhi8

[RedTanRT/10]

This bickering and bullshitting is nothing new! How many of you remember how nasty the debut was of the gen3? Or how about when the gen4 came out with same body? Why is this an issue of all a sudden? Are people making "negative comments" hindering you from enjoying your car? Did you buy the car for your enjoyment or for others to praise you and the car? Enjoy your cars and don't worry what anyone else thinks about your car! :drive:

Moundir, all great points. Perhaps forums are getting more rough, lot's of the G5 guys are new to viper history??

I know 4 local guys with G5's, 2 x-ACR, all love them and could give a shit what's said on any of these forums.

G5 folks, enjoy your viper like Moundir posted, quit getting sucked into arguements, ignore the negativity, quit trying to defend to folks who'll never like it or buy it. Realize some of the G5 owners posting are getting flamed for what they write not what they drive. Get SRT to have an owners only tech session. Enjoy and drive the piss out of your G5!

[TwinVipers]

It has more to do with how it is affecting sales, technical discussions, factory forum support. Just because everyone acted like asswhipes back then doesn't mean that we should continue the trend.

I think factory support was lost when certain assholes tried to get Ralph fired along with all the shady operations of vpa and others.. This also wasn't good for sales. Regardless, I think a little civility goes a long way!

[Jack B]

A little clarification:

1. Under certain conditions without any mods the a/f at WOT drops to approx 10.0. The fat a/f is not the result of any one mod.

2.The above condition affects drag racing more than it does road racing.

3. If anything, a mod leans the car and you gain hp, although, the gains are minimized by the rich mixture.

4. I have not logged KR yet, however, I am seeing a lot of timing pulled under all wot conditions. Headers may be part of the this issue.

all comments above are based on log data and have been repeated multiple times.

[Nine Ball]

This bickering and bullshitting is nothing new! How many of you remember how nasty the debut was of the gen3? Or how about when the gen4 came out with same body? Why is this an issue of all a sudden? Are people making "negative comments" hindering you from enjoying your car? Did you buy the car for your enjoyment or for others to praise you and the car? Enjoy your cars and don't worry what anyone else thinks about your car! :drive:

I remember those days, but the scathing that the Gen 5 has gotten has been the worst. Most people complained about not having a GTS hardtop in 2003. Valid complaint, just like the convertible guys now. Gen 4 didn't really see any complaints, other than no tune available. Most people enjoyed the TR6060, differential, 600hp upgrades, even with the same body. There really wasn't much discussion about the Gen 4 on these sites. As for Gen 5 owners enjoying their cars, that isn't an issue. What they (we) aren't enjoying is this forum, this club, because of a few clowns with nothing better to do. Again, I'm seeing responses above that allude to Gen 5 owners "defending" and "regretting" and "not secure" blah blah blah. That is the same shit attitude, in a shiny wrapper. Those are exactly the comments that get old here. Most come from owners of previous gens, which is pathetic. This is supposed to be a Viper club, owners should never feel they have to defend buying a Viper within a club meant for Vipers. Think about it.

[Steve M]

Huh, I didn't realize that. With all the headers and gears Woodhouse appears to be doing, I assumed they were not an issue. I obviously see the need/desire for an offroad PCM.

You always see them posting about installs on Facebook, but you never see results.

[Bruce H.]

A little clarification:

1. Under certain conditions without any mods the a/f at WOT drops to approx 10.0. The fat a/f is not the result of any one mod.

2.The above condition affects drag racing more than it does road racing.

3. If anything, a mod leans the car and you gain hp, although, the gains are minimized by the rich mixture.

4. I have not logged KR yet, however, I am seeing a lot of timing pulled under all wot conditions. Headers may be part of the this issue.

all comments above are based on log data and have been repeated multiple times.

I spoke with Dick Winkles about modding mine for the road course, and when I made the comment that I know adding headers with the stock ECU had the effect of richening the AFR he immediately said that was not true. I didn't press him on the point as I had no details, and plan to change the ECU anyways as he recommends. Lots of talk about sensors and sensitivities that the off-road tune addresses. It made me think that those who have experienced a rich AFR with headers may be doing so because of something related to the install, AFR sensor or wire positioning, etc. Maybe the ECU needs to adjust over 500 miles or something. Anyways, this was part of a conversation about horsepower limits, their position on forced induction on the Viper, the Hellcat engine, and the route they would choose for more power in the Viper. I'm sure some or all of it was confidential, so I'll let them make public what they choose.

Btw Jack, I did my last road course event with Guage 2 displayed and videod for you to see all the temp readings. It's uploading now so I can post it.

It sure would be nice to have the experts fill in the blanks...but from many comments made in this thread I somehow doubt they will feel so inclined.

[VENOM V]

I remember those days, but the scathing that the Gen 5 has gotten has been the worst. Most people complained about not having a GTS hardtop in 2003. Valid complaint, just like the convertible guys now. Gen 4 didn't really see any complaints, other than no tune available. Most people enjoyed the TR6060, differential, 600hp upgrades, even with the same body. There really wasn't much discussion about the Gen 4 on these sites. As for Gen 5 owners enjoying their cars, that isn't an issue. What they (we) aren't enjoying is this forum, this club, because of a few clowns with nothing better to do. Again, I'm seeing responses above that allude to Gen 5 owners "defending" and "regretting" and "not secure" blah blah blah. That is the same shit attitude, in a shiny wrapper. Those are exactly the comments that get old here. Most come from owners of previous gens, which is pathetic. This is supposed to be a Viper club, owners should never feel they have to defend buying a Viper within a club meant for Vipers. Think about it.

Bullseye, you nailed it Tony. We both are members of other forums for other cars that are far from perfect, made by teams that are far from perfect. Yet somehow people on those forums are able to get past that and enjoy dialogue without having thread after thread derailed by arrogant know-it-alls that don't know what they don't know.

[ViperSmith]

I remember those days, but the scathing that the Gen 5 has gotten has been the worst. Most people complained about not having a GTS hardtop in 2003. Valid complaint, just like the convertible guys now. Gen 4 didn't really see any complaints, other than no tune available. Most people enjoyed the TR6060, differential, 600hp upgrades, even with the same body. There really wasn't much discussion about the Gen 4 on these sites. As for Gen 5 owners enjoying their cars, that isn't an issue. What they (we) aren't enjoying is this forum, this club, because of a few clowns with nothing better to do. Again, I'm seeing responses above that allude to Gen 5 owners "defending" and "regretting" and "not secure" blah blah blah. That is the same shit attitude, in a shiny wrapper. Those are exactly the comments that get old here. Most come from owners of previous gens, which is pathetic. This is supposed to be a Viper club, owners should never feel they have to defend buying a Viper within a club meant for Vipers. Think about it.

I really don't get why this all escapes people, this sums it all up.

[FLATOUT]

I can assure you the issues people see with the headers not making much if any power has NOTHING to do with an improper install. How ever he has the V10 setup with the factory ECU is not working once exhaust is installed and that's never happened before, and this is the same basic V10 that it has been since 2008 (longer than that obviously but the cam in cam and new heads in 08 were big changes).

And I think the issue people expereince are several issues going on, I.E. rich, pulled timing, maybe KR, we don't know though since we can't see into the ECU the way you can on other makers vehicles.

[slowhatch]

I still cant believe all you old men ;) bicker like children on here. I've seen more cohesiveness and unity on a v6 mustang forum.

[F2V]

Yeah I don't know why guys are adding them at this point. I ran a guy that lives by me the other day that has a Gen V will full Balenger exhaust and I pulled him in my stock TA lol.

3.73's are helping but I can barely live with the 3.55's here in Houston cruising at 80+ on our freeways so not changing to the 3.73's. I think a lot of guys just order this stuff to tell people they have the parts on the car and then never actually go and dyno, or go to the track (posers if you will).



And if I'm wrong someone show me an independent owners car with a dyno graph.

My ride is at WMD last 2 months for several upgrades (headers HF cats included, kept stock exhaust) on a slow build waiting for the PCM primarily, and a few CF parts. No PCM is in reasonable sight, so I asked Mark to button things up, and also do a mustang dyno...we'll see. Not too optimistic, based on your above comment

[VENOM V]

I really don't get why this all escapes people, this sums it all up.

Thank god I don't have to defend my purchase decision at NVE, or at my local Viper Club get togethers. Sunday I will be driving through the hills with the NorCal guys. Owners of all gens having a blast together without tearing into each other, how could that be? If we had whiners like some on this forum, no one would listen or tolerate it. Basic respect and common courtesy.

[FLATOUT]

You'll pick up something through the middle, and it will be slightly faster, just not what we used to see, atleast until the ECU surfaces, which could be never.


My ride is at WMD last 2 months for several upgrades (headers HF cats included, kept stock exhaust) on a slow build waiting for the PCM primarily, and a few CF parts. No PCM is in reasonable sight, so I asked Mark to button things up, and also do a mustang dyno...we'll see. Not too optimistic, based on your above comment

[mikesax]

Post up some pics Venom!! Nothing better than a "herd" of Vipers!!!! Have a BLAST!!!!

[VENOM V]

Post up some pics Venom!! Nothing better than a "herd" of Vipers!!!! Have a BLAST!!!!

Thanks Mike, I'll post up a few shots!

[Jack B]

Gentlemen

Again, the headers do not enrich the a/f at wot, that over rich condition exists on stock cars. It is part of the cat protect circuit and I know that seems counter intuitive.

As stated previously it only impacts the car under certain conditions. Headers actually lean the car out a little. You probably would never know this exists unless you drag race. Put into prospective, the car probably never sees less than 5000 rpm at the drag strip.

[FLATOUT]

Then what's causing the issue Jack? Timing being pulled? KR?



Gentlemen

Again, the headers do not enrich the a/f at wot, that over rich condition exists on stock cars. It is part of the cat protect circuit and I know that seems counter intuitive.

As stated previously it only impacts the car under certain conditions. Headers actually leans the car out a little. You probably would never know this exists unless you drag race. Put into prospective, the car probably never sees less than 5000 rpm at the drag strip.

[Troublemaker]

Then what's causing the issue Jack? Timing being pulled? KR?

I have no dog in this fight, but I'm curious also. It's always nice to have somebody collecting data on a new car.

[plumcrazy]

y'all realize if you read and followed my sig this would all be solved

[FLATOUT]

y'all realize if you read and followed my sig this would all be solved

But then there would be no need for Moderators.

[Jack B]

I just figured out the a/f. Timing is next. BTW, when I use the word "I", it should be we, I have had some good support.

The revised pcm fixes the a/f and removes kr.


Then what's causing the issue Jack? Timing being pulled? KR?

[Chorps]

There's well over 100 posts in this topic and no one has blown it up yet. That must be some kind of record. Why can't all the threads be like this?

[Troublemaker]

Splitting the forums into sub categories is already here. If making them exclusive to each Generations owners is what you are after, I wish you the best, but segregating the forums membership to that kind of make up just limits the questions and answers that can be brought up. I will admit flat out that I was very critical in the beginning, but never of the car, just how it was offered and the way it was sold. I believe more of my frustrations existed with the dealer network, which it looks like SRT has done their best to remedy.

Carry on, I believe I have learned more about the car in this thread than any other, so we are getting somewhere.

[Jack B]

The crap slingers got temp religion, they thought they were going to be demoted. Time will heal their wounds, they will be back


There's well over 100 posts in this topic and no one has blown it up yet. That must be some kind of record. Why can't all the threads be like this?

[Shooter]

Hey look on the bright side. Y'all got a 5 hp bump for 2015. It's a sensitive 5 hp too, which should really wake things up around here.


On a serious note. I went and looked at a track pack car today. If it gets down to $78-$80k....I might buy it. I've lost hope that an actual ACR is coming though.

[FLATOUT]

Glad you got to check it out. Another Houston gen IV owner just called and said that he was up there today looking at the new green cars.



Hey look on the bright side. Y'all got a 5 hp bump for 2015. It's a sensitive 5 hp too, which should really wake things up around here.


On a serious note. I went and looked at a track pack car today. If it gets down to $78-$80k....I might buy it. I've lost hope that an actual ACR is coming though.

[Shooter]

Glad you got to check it out. Another Houston gen IV owner just called and said that he was up there today looking at the new green cars.

I was at a different place today. Just seeing whats out there.

[Bruce H.]

I just figured out the a/f. Timing is next. BTW, when I use the word "I", it should be we, I have had some good support.

The revised pcm fixes the a/f and removes kr.

Along with preventing a CEL. Hopefully knock response isn't eliminated, but sensitivity reduced??? The stock ECU is set up for minimum 91 octane but I wouldn't be surprised if a slight bump up might be advised, if not required. We typically only have 91 premium in Ontario, but I noticed everywhere I've been in the US east was 93 for premium which should be perfect. Is 93 typical across the States?

[FLATOUT]

I was at a different place today. Just seeing whats out there.

Excellent! I think Spring Dodge has had a few for a long time, might be looking to deal :D

[ACRucrazy]

The dealer I got my ACR from reached out to me today and offered me an orange TA on trade for the ACR. The orange sure looked nice! He is going to get back to me with numbers.
Not sure I can let the beast go though.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/t31.0-8/10353289_10152281185902643_8394672709300130386_o.j pg

[FLATOUT]

I'm thrilled with my switch and I loved and still love ACR's.


The dealer I got my ACR from reached out to me today and offered me an orange TA on trade for the ACR. The orange sure looked nice! He is going to get back to me with numbers.
Not sure I can let the beast go though.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/t31.0-8/10353289_10152281185902643_8394672709300130386_o.j pg

[RT SERPENT]

Chris, the TA is… awesome!
Your ACR is… awesome!
Don't think I could part with that green beast, though. Tough choices.

[Jack B]

In Ohio, 93 is common.


Along with preventing a CEL. Hopefully knock response isn't eliminated, but sensitivity reduced??? The stock ECU is set up for minimum 91 octane but I wouldn't be surprised if a slight bump up might be advised, if not required. We typically only have 91 premium in Ontario, but I noticed everywhere I've been in the US east was 93 for premium which should be perfect. Is 93 typical across the States?

[pdv25]

Along with preventing a CEL. Hopefully knock response isn't eliminated, but sensitivity reduced??? The stock ECU is set up for minimum 91 octane but I wouldn't be surprised if a slight bump up might be advised, if not required. We typically only have 91 premium in Ontario, but I noticed everywhere I've been in the US east was 93 for premium which should be perfect. Is 93 typical across the States?

93 in Florida.

[commandomatt]

Rucrazy......Looks like some sleepless nights for you.

Your SSG ACR is without a doubt one of the best.

[TwinVipers]

The new Stryker green is freaking awesome in person! It's a much deeper green than the gen 4 green. By far the best color for the TA!!:monkeyleft:

[Coloviper]

91 is tops in CO so no a 93 program is not going to work here. A number of other states also top out at 91, some at 90.

[Stealth]

91 in CA

[Nine Ball]

y'all realize if you read and followed my sig this would all be solved

Using ignore is a passive approach at fixing the problem. As long as the problem exists, SRT will keep using the ignore feature on the VOA.

[WANTED]

This bickering and bullshitting is nothing new! How many of you remember how nasty the debut was of the gen3? Or how about when the gen4 came out with same body? Why is this an issue of all a sudden? Are people making "negative comments" hindering you from enjoying your car? Did you buy the car for your enjoyment or for others to praise you and the car? Enjoy your cars and don't worry what anyone else thinks about your car! :drive:

I was one of the first owners of the genIII and believe me was treated much worse then what you gen V owners are experiencing. At least with the gen V most say its a great car. Funny thing I bought mine then sold it for a profit. Next purchase was a 2004 and made a profit on that. So with the prices being what they are I see good things coming to those who got a screaming deal. Get over the bashing and look forward to driving a gen V for almost nothing when you sell it, that should make you feel a little better. Its a great car but you already know that, many have said so.

[Bruce H.]

I met Eric Heuschele at Homecoming...he's the Viper's dynamics and handling guru. In the space of a few minutes he shared a unique wealth of knowledge directly pertaining to what I'm starting to experience as I probe the car's limits on the road course, and how to wring the most out of it. He explained why the Corsa's are such a great tire on the car, what to avoid in a different replacement tire, recommended hot track pressure, optimal camber for the track, and explained why my track-heavy brake wear makes them feel perfect on the track and slightly rough on the road. The following day he spotted the car at the Chelsea facility (recalled me saying it was a black TA) and came over to look at and discuss my tire wear and brakes.

I've met several of the team now and everyone is exactly like this. They are one hard-core and passionate group of dedicated performance enthusiasts that are living their dream on Team Viper. They eat, sleep and talk real performance, and if our group ever gets over playing the blame game for slow sales, telling each other how the Viper should have been built, and realize 707 isn't the Holy Grail, then we'll be a big step closer to appreciating the Gen V for what it really is all about. And if you're still unsure then try to score a few laps as a passenger around a race track.

[BlknBlu]

Did the GEN V just win at Indy? got to be a way to spin that as no good for Viper. Although I can not think of a way.

Bruce

[VYPR BYT]

Did the GEN V just win at Indy? got to be a way to spin that as no good for Viper. Although I can not think of a way.

Bruce

Hahaha

[Jack B]

The problem with "ignore" is that car shoppers and true enthusiest will see the same repeating/negative posts.

[GaQUOTE=Nine Ball;68018]Using ignore is a passive approach at fixing the problem. As long as the problem exists, SRT will keep using the ignore feature on the VOA.[/QUOTE]

[IndyRon]

I hear what everyone is saying. I also see that some folks like to act as Chrysler's volunteer representative(s) in that they want everything to be super happy and everyone super content so they can help sell cars for Chrysler. I also realize they do this because they believe in the Viper legacy and would rather the car continue than stop being produced.

The problem I have with that is, OK, you censor the boards or divide into subforums even further or keep more critical folks from posting unless an owner and you sell what...1 or 2 more cars a year that way. This isn't the solution. While Chrysler probably doesn't like reading the negativity, they also aren't for the most part emotionally attached to the cars the way we are...they just want to sell them and make money and positive publicity. Everyone with criticism is saying the same thing.....just make the car better in a few categories. It just so happens that these longed-for improvements are not cheap. So, the bottom line is so far, they don't want to spend the money on the platform. It is what it is. I'd like to see the car stay and improve but I must say the cars at the Vipers pricepoint continue to improve and advance and I'm not ultimately brand loyal.

[mikesax]

I just thought a "car club" should be more "positive" about the automobile at the center of the club!! Sharing "pictures/stories/experiences/road stories" and the like!! The ESSENCE of the Viper is/are the people who bought it and ENJOY it!! You "come for the car"-you stay for the people and the experience of "driving and enjoying" all that being part of a club has to offer! Every automobile that is successful needs to improve and grow each year or generation -IMO this car has gotten substantially better with this "generation"!! Obviously the Viper needs to "change" in a variety of areas in order for demand to increase and the car to continue on-HOWEVER it is INCREDIBLE at this "moment in time" for me!! I look forward to reading about experiences from NineBall/VenomV/BruceH and all the other members who use this car and enjoy it!! We all know what it is and what it isn't- I'm just not interested in people who "b..ch and moan" !! Time to crack a 100-PEACE OUT!!!!!!!

[Jack B]

Ron

over half of the negative posts are baseless to the informed. Someone new to the viper community does not always have that knowledge base and can take the baseless comment as the truth.


I hear what everyone is saying. I also see that some folks like to act as Chrysler's volunteer representative(s) in that they want everything to be super happy and everyone super content so they can help sell cars for Chrysler. I also realize they do this because they believe in the Viper legacy and would rather the car continue than stop being produced.

The problem I have with that is, OK, you censor the boards or divide into subforums even further or keep more critical folks from posting unless an owner and you sell what...1 or 2 more cars a year that way. This isn't the solution. While Chrysler probably doesn't like reading the negativity, they also aren't for the most part emotionally attached to the cars the way we are...they just want to sell them and make money and positive publicity. Everyone with criticism is saying the same thing.....just make the car better in a few categories. It just so happens that these longed-for improvements are not cheap. So, the bottom line is so far, they don't want to spend the money on the platform. It is what it is. I'd like to see the car stay and improve but I must say the cars at the Vipers pricepoint continue to improve and advance and I'm not ultimately brand loyal.

[Lawrenzo]

So far, I'm very satisfied with my new Viper. Does is have or do everything I ever wanted in a car, no, but who in their right mind expects 100% perfection. We(the Viper loyalists) have compromised on many things over the various Gen's and why should we expect that anything has changed. Don't like the Gen V fine, then go get an older Gen and still be a part of one of the greatest ownership clubs in sportscar hissstory.

[IndyRon]

Ron

over half of the negative posts are baseless to the informed. Someone new to the viper community does not always have that knowledge base and can take the baseless comment as the truth.

I do agree with you regarding the negative posts Jack. The solution really is all of you guys with Gen 5's posting your positive experiences rather than trying to silence the critics, though. I would also argue that most folks willing to drop 100k+ are not necessarily sheeple that are influenced by internet threads (if they even see them). If I have 100k and want a hot sports car as a new buyer, I'll start flipping through rags and checking the net for cars. Making a list of those that look the part, then check them out in person. I'm surely not going to allow some internet post to keep me from determining for myself via a test drive whether the Viper is a good fit for me. We need to give the consumer at this price point a bit more credit.

I think that it's more that nerves are raw from the current Gen 5 owners given the rehashing ad nauseum over the same old complaints...some valid, some not. I've personally stated my complaints with the car in the past which really has nothing to do with the current cars performance or driveability, but rather the Viper legacy of dominance. Because of this I won't be rehashing the same old stuff over and over again. All it does is function to divide the family here even further which has already suffered 1 division with the formation and segregation of 2 clubs. Hopefully others will agree.

[I Bin Therbefor]

I'm curious about something. According to Ralph, 60% of Gen V buyers are first time buyers. Further, they buy GTS or heavily optioned cars. Ralph alleges that the Viper sells well in that 125 to 150k range. At one time Ralph said that although Viper did not meet the volume figures, it came very come to the revenue figures due to the high unit cost. As an aside, a large percentage of Vipers were sold by three dealers at MSRP. These dealers never charged more than MSRP.

From reading the forums, I get the impression that these first time buyers don't participate in the forum. They certainly aren't the folks asking for a less expensive or more powerful Viper.

What kind of a Viper community appeals to these folks? More face to face and not much social medium? Clubs - are you getting new members who have never owned a Viper before? Would a free one year membership to the local and national club for a first time Viper Gen V buyer help introduce him/her to the Viper community?

[vipertank]

I don't own a gen v...but i think it is friggin awesome. Nuff said.

[Space Truckin]

I do OWN 1, and YES they are AWSOME!!!! :dancingman: :United_States:

[Crotalidae]

I do OWN 1, and YES they are AWSOME!!!! :dancingman: :United_States:

X2!!!

[Policy Limits]

Moundir, all great points. Perhaps forums are getting more rough, lot's of the G5 guys are new to viper history??

I know 4 local guys with G5's, 2 x-ACR, all love them and could give a shit what's said on any of these forums.

G5 folks, enjoy your viper like Moundir posted, quit getting sucked into arguements, ignore the negativity, quit trying to defend to folks who'll never like it or buy it. Realize some of the G5 owners posting are getting flamed for what they write not what they drive. Get SRT to have an owners only tech session. Enjoy and drive the piss out of your G5!

U should take your own advice.

[F2V]

Interesting!! http://forums.viperclub.org/threads/671293-Gen-5-Trashing

[plumcrazy]

lol, thats what they do there....

[ViperSmith]

lol, thats what they do there....

I am glad they are doing it. I created the same "possibly selling" thread and it was overrun by useless trolls instantly.

[Bruce H.]

I am glad they are doing it. I created the same "possibly selling" thread and it was overrun by useless trolls instantly.

Your thread got moved and I was not able to even see it after that.

[Russ Oasis]

All I can say is that I've had every kind of car there is. I currently own one of every generation Viper built plus 2 comp coupes and an ACR-X. I LOVE my Gen V. It's an outstanding car on every level. Because it's such a good car, I have to believe that a lot of the complaining and whining on the boards are coming from those who don't own a Viper or the Gen V in particular. Why don't people use their real names to post rather than posting under screen names? It's easy to trash talk when you can hide behind a fake name. Quit complaining. The Viper is more car than you can get anywhere else for the money. For the guy who wanted the Audi R-8...great go buy one. It costs more and can't compare. Some say they want a Porsche, Ferrari, or Lambo...good for them. They'll be spending their dollars on cars that are more expensive than the Viper and get their clocks cleaned by a Viper. If you don't like the Viper, go buy something else. I love mine...simple as that.

[Bruce H.]

That's a lot of Vipers! Totally agree with you.


All I can say is that I've had every kind of car there is. I currently own one of every generation Viper built plus 2 comp coupes and an ACR-X. I LOVE my Gen V. It's an outstanding car on every level. Because it's such a good car, I have to believe that a lot of the complaining and whining on the boards are coming from those who don't own a Viper or the Gen V in particular. Why don't people use their real names to post rather than posting under screen names? It's easy to trash talk when you can hide behind a fake name. Quit complaining. The Viper is more car than you can get anywhere else for the money. For the guy who wanted the Audi R-8...great go buy one. It costs more and can't compare. Some say they want a Porsche, Ferrari, or Lambo...good for them. They'll be spending their dollars on cars that are more expensive than the Viper and get their clocks cleaned by a Viper. If you don't like the Viper, go buy something else. I love mine...simple as that.

[daytonprowler]

"The client is not always right." – Enzo Ferrari

:)

[Troublemaker]

"The client is not always right." – Enzo Ferrari

:)

But the client usually doesn't understand that.

How about this one,
I DON'T WANT TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB THAT WILL ACCEPT PEOPLE LIKE ME AS A MEMBER".

[daytonprowler]

But the client usually doesn't understand that.

How about this one,
"I DON'T WANT TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB THAT WILL ACCEPT PEOPLE LIKE ME AS A MEMBER".

LOL! Groucho Marx :)