Cylinder head discussion.

[Troublemaker]

I have done quite a bit of searching, but it's some older material and I was curious to see what has been done and what results have been less than stellar on Head swaps and porting.

Unfortunately there was great thread on VCA that started out very informative and turned into arguing so the information given was left too open ended.

I was looking to purchase a newer car but after doing a couple rounds of mods and liking the results I am going to continue dumping money in this car for the time being. Strikers look to have left the market, Gen2 heads have limited potential, Gen3 heads on a Gen2 looks promising with a little bit of work, Gen4 top end swap has the most potential, but really isn't a DIY type swap which is what I'm after.

So let's hear what you are glad you've done as well as what you wouldn't do again.

[plumcrazy]

all depends on your end goals. id bet a good set of GG gen2 heads are more than adequate for you.

[Troublemaker]

all depends on your end goals. id bet a good set of GG gen2 heads are more than adequate for you.
End goal is high 120 trap speed with decent drivability. Thanks for not thinking much of me, a good motivational pep talk in the morning always helps. My thought process is what gives the best bang for the buck, the porting will cost about the same, so do Gen3 heads have more potential than Gen2s. From what I have read, yes and the heads and intake can be picked up cheap. I don't have headers yet do that won't sway me and throttle bodies are cheap. When the top end is off a Cam is easy, so that won't be a game breaker either.

[99RT10]

Gen 3 s will flow a little better than the Gen IIs. Generaly the Gen II heads will get 310-315 CFM on a .600" lift. The Gen 3 will see about 340 CFM. with a well matched camshaft and 1.7 RR, you should see 550+ on the Gen 2 Heads. A little more.on the Gen 3. Check your PMs.

[99RT10]

http://driveviper.com/classifieds/engine/p247-gen-3-heads-2c-excellent-shape.html.

Also remember if you go with a set of Gen 3 heads, you will need a custom set of headers since mounting flange is different from Gen 2 to Gen 3. Plus about $800 of custom welding on the heads to put the p/s brackets and temp senders in place correctly.

[Troublemaker]

This is the kind of answers I was looking for. I knew the heads needed to work, but the headers are something I wasn't familiar with. I will be a Winter build as the car has been down too much this Summer and I don't want it down anymore.

[plumcrazy]

lol, i was talking about if you wanted to go NA, Sc or TT in the future and what you were planning on doing with the car. to trap 120 you can do that stock or nearly stock so any head/cam swap will be fine.

[99RT10]

Agreed, assuming you have a Gen II, heads and cam will get you well into the 130's with the supporting mods. .

[Troublemaker]

lol, i was talking about if you wanted to go NA, Sc or TT in the future and what you were planning on doing with the car. to trap 120 you can do that stock or nearly stock so any head/cam swap will be fine.

That was a typo, I forgot an s, so it should say high 120s. If it goes faster, great. But that will make me smile for a while. While I have no intention of FI, the power that makes you smile today, can get boring tomorrow and a SC might be in the future. But right now let's leave it as a healthy NA car. The clutch that I just had installed should hold up to a lot more so I am trying to get my ducks in a row and start to weed out week links. Throwing parts and money at these things is a sickness, that I can already see.

But from what I am seeing so far, the casting of the Gen3 heads doesn't seem to have as many variables is the Gen2 and it looks like the porting can get a little more aggressive. All I can do is regurgitate what I have read as I have no personal knowledge, so right now I am just trying to learn all I can.

[jasond29]

yeah I tapped 122 with just full exhaust intake and a tune, ported Gen 2 heads and nice cam will easily get you where you want to be. My understanding was that a Gen 3 head is just a Ported Gen 2 head and just a better casting all around. Cam choice and compression will really make your combo shine whatever it is.

[Troublemaker]

yeah I tapped 122 with just full exhaust intake and a tune, ported Gen 2 heads and nice cam will easily get you where you want to be. My understanding was that a Gen 3 head is just a Ported Gen 2 head and just a better casting all around. Cam choice and compression will really make your combo shine whatever it is.

This is where the law of diminishing returns sets in and you have to figure out how much you want to spend vs. what you get for it.

The Gen2 intake starts to become the bottle neck. The Gen3 with some port works look to pick up some volume which it lacks stock. It's still a short runner intake, but looks like it can be worked with.

[The Stig]

I went gen 3 heads with mild work on gen 2 bottom end .I made a jig up from my gen 2 head and had spacers made for PS pump and fit perfectly under 150 dollars to complete- used M&M gen 3 headers for my exhaust. temp sensor I added a 1/4 alum welded section band to thermostat neck and tapped it for 3/8 npt inserted the sensor there
http://youtu.be/migYBXi1c0Q

[Troublemaker]

Can you tell me a little more about the PS set up? Very nice car.

[100]

I went gen 3 heads with mild work on gen 2 bottom end .I made a jig up from my gen 2 head and had spacers made for PS pump and fit perfectly under 150 dollars to complete- used M&M gen 3 headers for my exhaust. temp sensor I added a 1/4 alum welded section band to thermostat neck and tapped it for 3/8 npt inserted the sensor there
http://youtu.be/migYBXi1c0Q
TIGHT -- that's a smart guy!

[Troublemaker]

TIGHT -- that's a smart guy!

Yeah, no sh!t. I'm more of a wrench turner that a fabricator, so the welding is something I will let someone else do.

[Troublemaker]

Has anyone tried Gen4 heads with a Gen5 intake on a Gen2? I know a couple of 3/4 monsters are cruising around, but I did hear that a 2/4 was in the works. Right now just weighing the options, but drivability needs to stay as close to stock as possible so large cams won't fit the mold.

[plumcrazy]

are you trying to make things more difficult ? you are not looking for a crazy end result, go with tried and true (and affordable) no need to reinvent the wheel IMO.

[Troublemaker]

Of course I'm trying to make it difficult, if it ain't broke, keep fixing it until it is. I know a few on here some mutants under the hood, and the more I think about it the more I will regret not doing my homework and do it right the first time. I just think the gen2 intake has limited potential on an NA build, so that's where I stated to think about alternate options. I am going to sit back and wait on a new car, so what better way to burn money than to build a motor.

[jasond29]

I am in the process of doing the gen 4 conversion on my gen 2. Still gathering some misc parts. I will post what I spent in the conversion and the results when done. I am doing it for 2 reasons, looks and power. I am shooting for as close to 700rwhp as possible, I think it's doable. We will see I guess

[IndyRon]

Gen 3 s will flow a little better than the Gen IIs. Generaly the Gen II heads will get 310-315 CFM on a .600" lift. The Gen 3 will see about 340 CFM. with a well matched camshaft and 1.7 RR, you should see 550+ on the Gen 2 Heads. A little more.on the Gen 3. Check your PMs.

Great info. Any idea how the Gen 4 heads flow stock and ported compared to the Gen 3?

[Fatboy 18]

Adrian in the UK, fitted Gen 3 heads on his Gen II, but after a while ran into some issues :(
http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/2836-Collapsed-hydraulic-lifter-advise-views-and-opinions-wanted?highlight=madmax

He is now facing a large bill and another rebuild! :(

[jasond29]

I think I have read that the gen3 head flows in the 310-320 area and the gen 4 head flows in the 350-360 range unported

[ViperTony]

In 2010, I did the Greg Good treatment. I sent my GenII heads to him so he could work his magic on them. At the time, they were the highest flowing GenII heads me produced at 330 cfm. I also went with his custom cam. The heads and cam added 120rwhp to my Viper. I then had Greg port my GenII intake and I added 70mm TB's. During my last dyno/tuning session in May, I was at 560rwhp/560ish rwtq on a Mustang dyno but my AFR was pig rich at WOT @ 8-9AFR and very lean down low. I found that my lifters had gone soft and was hurting lift. I found a couple of exhaust leaks. I since remedied that. I also removed my cats. Going back for final tuning in a week or two. Its feels insane. The torque is nuts. It pulls insanely and has done so since Day 1.

But on a GenII, if you're not getting at least 550rwhp on Greg Good ported heads and his cam (headers and exhaust) something isn't right.

I'm so happy with his work that I'm pulling my block this coming winter and having him build up the bottom end.

If I were to do it again today, I'd get a set of GenIII heads and GenIII intake, send it to Greg and let him do his magic. I haven't much info posted about what this combination generates in terms if power/torque/trap speeds but I have to imagine it's better than what I'm producing. I'd imagine that running out of injector would occur at this level.

Oh, I have ZERO drivability issues with my GG Cam. None.

[ViperTony]

Adrian in the UK, fitted Gen 3 heads on his Gen II, but after a while ran into some issues :(
http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/2836-Collapsed-hydraulic-lifter-advise-views-and-opinions-wanted?highlight=madmax

He is now facing a large bill and another rebuild! :(

Yes but that has nothing to do with the GenIII heads. Look at the wear on that cam lobe he posted. He knew when he measured for pushrods that something was off and could've caught the cam wear problem then. Per Adrian " in fact, I'm certain #10 cam was excessively worn when I did the head project because that pushrod needed to be 1/8 longer!!! A warning sign I did not understand the significant of"

But now he has an excuse to do a bigger build while he's in there. ;)

[Fatboy 18]

Yes, I guess what I am trying to say is be careful and check everything else is in good shape before jumping in on ANY mod ;)

[ViperTony]

Yes, I guess what I am trying to say is be careful and check everything else is in good shape before jumping in on ANY mod ;)

Absolutely. Something I didn't do either but learning my lesson too. ;)

[Troublemaker]

Yes but that has nothing to do with the GenIII heads. Look at the wear on that cam lobe he posted. He knew when he measured for pushrods that something was off and could've caught the cam wear problem then. Per Adrian " in fact, I'm certain #10 cam was excessively worn when I did the head project because that pushrod needed to be 1/8 longer!!! A warning sign I did not understand the significant of"

But now he has an excuse to do a bigger build while he's in there. ;)

The Gen3 head/intake combo looks to be more cost effective than the Gen4 conversion, but yields lower numbers also. But there are a few 600rwhp Gen3 cars out there and that seems like a nice window to exist in, no matter what year. Running out of injector doesn't bother me as much as running out of fuel system, that's a little more of a challenge. The Cam will be swapped at the same time, so short of the rotating assembly, the top if the motor will be pretty fresh. Now to start collecting parts.

[Troublemaker]

For any of you that have used the Gen 3 intake on a Gen 2, what did you use on the air filter set up. I picked up the heads, now I need to figure out what to do about an intake manifold. The 2 and 3 manifold both seem to have limitations.

[The Stig]

what would you like to know on what it takes to mount gen 3 top end.. send me your em and I will forward my pics of the conversions

[The Stig]

Arrow and Viper speciality manufacture the PS bracket for the conversion

[Viper Specialty]

Arrow and Viper speciality manufacture the PS bracket for the conversion


Yup. But please be aware they are drastically different designs. Arrow's is 1-peice, steel, and triangulates to the A/C mount on the block... problem for A/C equipped cars as its in the way of the compressor without modifications. Ours is 2-piece, aluminum, and triangulates to the engine lift bracket point. Also worth noting is that our triangulation bracket is designed for Gen-4 heads. I have never compared the lift point of a 3 and 4, but I would expect they would be very close if not identical in placement.

[Troublemaker]

These heads have already have the mounts welded up for the PS and the temp sensor. What I am more curious about is which one of the manifolds to use, neither seem ideal. As much as I wanted to do the Gen4 conversion, this is a winter project that I am going to build myself, that didn't seem to be a feasible option for DIY. I have actually spent a lot of time on the truck forums as they seem to build quite a few NA motors. Most of this is straight forward, the air filter set up still has to be worked out.

[J TNT]

Would be great to see if someone could do a Gen 5 intake , on Gen 4 heads on a Gen 3 And plastic weld the Intake for the IAC sensor And use the stock pcm. With Wilson throttle bodies

[Greg Good]

Would be great to see if someone could do a Gen 5 intake , on Gen 4 heads on a Gen 3 And plastic weld the Intake for the IAC sensor And use the stock pcm. With Wilson throttle bodies

An SRT-10 truck owner did it recently. It made 860 flywheel on 91 octane.

[J TNT]

Thanks Greg ! I'll have to look it up on utube. :)
Any idea who his source was to modify the intake to accept the stock IAC sensor ?

[Greg Good]

Thanks Greg ! I'll have to look it up on utube. :)
Any idea who his source was to modify the intake to accept the stock IAC sensor ?

I ported the intake but I'll have to ask him what he did about the IAC sensor. There is a thread about the engine on the VTCOA site.

Here's the youtube vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWXbsyYR-8g

[Troublemaker]

An SRT-10 truck owner did it recently. It made 860 flywheel on 91 octane.

That's amazing. The truck guys definitely seem more into modifying, there's no doubt.

[Greg Good]

That's amazing. The truck guys definitely seem more into modifying, there's no doubt.

Trainman isn't the typical SRT-10 owner. He does everything to the max. I'd kind of like to see him get a Viper car.

[99RT10]

These heads have already have the mounts welded up for the PS and the temp sensor. What I am more curious about is which one of the manifolds to use, neither seem ideal. As much as I wanted to do the Gen4 conversion, this is a winter project that I am going to build myself, that didn't seem to be a feasible option for DIY. I have actually spent a lot of time on the truck forums as they seem to build quite a few NA motors. Most of this is straight forward, the air filter set up still has to be worked out.

Welding the p/s bosses and temp bracket is the only proper way to do it. Others are a band-aid fix.

[J TNT]

Thanks Greg ! That's an awesome combination !!! And yes a Viper car version would do well !!! :)

[Viper Specialty]

Any idea who his source was to modify the intake to accept the stock IAC sensor ?

He didn't, he used Wilson Throttles with built-in IAC provisions. Its always an option, but I personally don't like the layout, its very "generic" I guess you could say.

[Viper Specialty]

Would be great to see if someone could do a Gen 5 intake , on Gen 4 heads on a Gen 3 And plastic weld the Intake for the IAC sensor And use the stock pcm. With Wilson throttle bodies

I am just going to leave this here ;)

Not exactly what you are asking, but close. Gen-5 Manifold, Gen-5 Heads, Gen-4/5 Front/Lower & Accessories, Gen-3 VS-1500 Block, and our new DBW Wiggins throttles.

https://scontent-lga1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/t31.0-8/11423999_10102482092488708_3127870211869813333_o.j pg

[IndyRon]

I am just going to leave this here ;)

Not exactly what you are asking, but close. Gen-5 Manifold, Gen-5 Heads, Gen-4 peripherals, Gen-3 VS-1500 Block, and our new DBW Wiggins throttles.

https://scontent-lga1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/t31.0-8/11423999_10102482092488708_3127870211869813333_o.j pg

Dan,
Tell us about those throttle bodies? Size compared to stock? Power gains on a bolt-on car? Cost? Etc. This is the first that I've seen them.

[Viper Specialty]

Dan,
Tell us about those throttle bodies? Size compared to stock? Power gains on a bolt-on car? Cost? Etc. This is the first that I've seen them.

Ron-

I don't want to turn this into an advertisement as I am not sponsoring here until I get situated down south and start taking on new work again, but here is the short gist of it:

They are based on the '15 throttle body design, and are the same "size" as 15's. They are designed for Forced Induction use, hence the addition and use of Wiggins flanges and clamps. They are not designed for power gain as much as they are appearance, ease of disassembly, and most of all, being able to withstand FI applications without fear of intake tube separation and boost leaks. They are offered with the components needed to fit onto a 2008-2014 application. In this particular case they are going on a V10-TT Resto-Mod with a Pectel system and a full MIL wiring harness.

https://scontent-lga1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/t31.0-8/11121233_10102437525850608_4102592477637449398_o.j pg

https://scontent-lga1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t31.0-8/11233587_10102437525810688_2168842906733788778_o.j pg

[Greg Good]

He didn't, he used Wilson Throttles with built-in IAC provisions. Its always an option, but I personally don't like the layout, its very "generic" I guess you could say.

Pretty is as pretty does.

[Viper Specialty]

Pretty is as pretty does.

To each their own, they get the job done. No denying that build is a monster for NA.

[Viper Specialty]

Welding the p/s bosses and temp bracket is the only proper way to do it. Others are a band-aid fix.

Highly disagree. Pumping tons of heat into a head, & hoping you don't eventually propagate a crack, is a band-aid fix. A properly engineered accessory bracket ...for an accessory... is the proper execution. I would also disagree that welding on a temp sensor boss is the proper solution. There are other solutions, and it does not include moving the sensor to the thermostat housing, which I also do not agree with technically.

[Troublemaker]

Highly disagree. Pumping tons of heat into a head, & hoping you don't eventually propagate a crack, is a band-aid fix. A properly engineered accessory bracket ...for an accessory... is the proper execution. I would also disagree that welding on a temp sensor boss is the proper solution. There are other solutions, and it does not include moving the sensor to the thermostat housing, which I also do not agree with technically.

You really aren't making this easy on me. I have really wanted a Gen4 top end, but I'm such a cheap ass. I really need to scrounge up some money, how have the Gen2/4 hybrids turned out?

[J TNT]

Nice work Dan , I was following this on FB . The Wilson Throttle Bodies seem like a nice option for the DIY'ers on Gen 2 and Gen 3 cars as long as they maintain good throttle response and drivability ?

I am just going to leave this here ;)

Not exactly what you are asking, but close. Gen-5 Manifold, Gen-5 Heads, Gen-4/5 Front/Lower & Accessories, Gen-3 VS-1500 Block, and our new DBW Wiggins throttles.

https://scontent-lga1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/t31.0-8/11423999_10102482092488708_3127870211869813333_o.j pg

[Viper Specialty]

You really aren't making this easy on me. I have really wanted a Gen4 top end, but I'm such a cheap ass. I really need to scrounge up some money, how have the Gen2/4 hybrids turned out?

I am actually in the throws of fitting the last square peg into a round hole on the first [the Airbox], and have already inventoried the second Gen-2 version which will be built immediately after this one- its going to be a black/yellow/polished setup for a Yellow 2001 ACR. The car runs, and sounds fantastic. This one has a few less cubes than the Gen-3 version, but has a more aggressive camshaft, so I am curious how the numbers will turn out. I expect similar or better, as the cam should make up the cubes and then some.

https://scontent-lga1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/t31.0-8/11119157_10102471397252048_7015596961982057651_o.j pg

[Viper Specialty]

Nice work Dan , I was following this on FB . The Wilson Throttle Bodies seem like a nice option for the DIY'ers on Gen 2 and Gen 3 cars as long as they maintain good throttle response and drivability ?

There are ups and downs on this, as being a more generic product, they are not specifically designed for the Viper application. While they are easier to fit with regard to IAC [And I cannot comment on its performance as we don't use them] they are not set up for the Viper cable system specifically, so that is an area that will require some fab work by the installer. I am also not 100% sure on their TPS range compatibility, and any problems which may arise there when using an OE ECU.

[99RT10]

Highly disagree. Pumping tons of heat into a head, & hoping you don't eventually propagate a crack, is a band-aid fix. A properly engineered accessory bracket ...for an accessory... is the proper execution. I would also disagree that welding on a temp sensor boss is the proper solution. There are other solutions, and it does not include moving the sensor to the thermostat housing, which I also do not agree with technically.


Tons of heat, LOL. I guess we will have to agree to dis-agree. Greg is doing a set of Gen 3 heads for me and never considered anything other than welding. The temp sensor can be put anywhere, most just put it in front just like the stock location. I expect the engine Greg is building for me with be capable of going well above 1500 on Gen 3 heads that flow ridiculously........... with welded bosses. :D

[Viper Specialty]

Tons of heat, LOL. I guess we will have to agree to dis-agree. Greg is doing a set of Gen 3 heads for me and never considered anything other than welding. The temp sensor can be put anywhere, most just put it in front just like the stock location. I expect the engine Greg is building for me with be capable of going well above 1500 on Gen 3 heads that flow ridiculously........... with welded bosses. :D

To each their own.

I TIG weld aluminum regularly. Pumping enough heat into an aluminum cylinder head to get good penetration is no easy task, even with 300 Amps. It is a gigantic heat sink, especially right on the end, as the area is not even remotely isolated like a thin port wall or similar structure. Sure, there are ways to minimize; additional heat sinking, even more amperage and hotter mixes, etc... but its a balancing act, heat is heat. It's also always a small risk that the mounts can break off later, even on a good weld... a risk you do not have with a proper bracket. Cracks can develop from fatigue, inherent flaw, stress riser, etc. Its not as much of an issue for the head itself if Greg is doing the welding first, and then all of the head machining/seats/guides after. But for the average Joe who is looking to just weld on a set of bosses and go, its a potential can of worms, especially if "Joe Blow The Welder" handles the job.

Regardless, anyone can do it any way they want. I can understand you wanting to support your used method, but to call the "more likely to be trouble free industry standard solution" a Band-Aid... makes no sense to me.

[Greg Good]

There's nothing wrong with welding bosses on the front of the Gen 3 head for the power steering bracket. Just don't do all of the welding in one sitting. Spread it out so the head doesn't heat soak and start degrading the heat treat.

[jasond29]

Wilson throttle bodies, iac adapter, gm screw in iac. Idles great, drives great. Like mentioned above, several ways to do the conversion.
1129811299

[Dan Cragin]

It all depends on what power level you want to reach, how you use the car and if you need to pass a smog test.

This is all very subjective, so each situation requires a certain combination of parts.

A car that is raced/ tracked/drag strip run will require parts that can handle that type of use. If its a street car you can reach the same power level without those extra parts.

Everything is a balance, heads, cam, intake, exhaust, tuning all play into how you put your package together.

You can waste a lot of money not going with the right combination.

I am happy to help, without any sales talk, to put you in the right direction. 310-597-6295

[jasond29]

Glad you chimed in Dan, the cam is awesome! Sounds mean as hell and pulls hard all the way up to 6500.

[Troublemaker]

Thanks to both Dans, you help is greatly appreciated. This is just in the stages right now at looking at bang for the buck. Reliability is first and foremost with the build, that part can't be sacrificed. A quick search gives a good idea of the turn key price of the Gen4 conversion, which was immediate sticker shock. But as I have learned, by the time you factor in a complete head build including porting, the Gen3 heads would take quite a bit of money to get them up to stock 4 heads, so the price starts to fall into line. Headers need to be purchased, so they are not a deciding factor. There are lots of little details to work out, so up until I figure out a definite path, I really won't bother either of you on the phone and come across like a lost idiot.

Thanks again.

[ellowviper]

Anyone run those Jessel 1.85 ratio rockers on their GEN-IV heads? I see Roe Racing is offering them and I wanted some first-hand opinions on running them. I assume the valve covers still fit with them stuffed inside???? Also, I'm not sure the max valve lift the stock valves/springs can handle ( I believe I've read .600). I think with my cam and the 1.85 ratios, I'll be around .635 lift on my exhaust. Intake slightly less....around .620.