Classifed Ad Restriction

[ACRucrazy]

Please be advised that all forum members are now being restricted to a maximum of 3 classified advertisements at any one time. There is presently no restriction on the total number of ads, so as long as you keep your ad total to not more than 3 (at any one time), you can replace any of those three at any time.

We will allow your EXISTING ads to continue, however any NEW ads will are prohibited (and will be removed) until your total is reduced to 3.

Extenuating "hardship cases" (such as the need to parting out totaled vehicle) will be considered. If you have any questions, please feel free to PM any of the moderators.

This message is being sent to all, and only those, that are presently over the limit.

City/Scott

I received this PM. Who voted to "add this rule" and why?
I have never been on a forum that restricts the number of ads a member can make, let alone a paying forum/club member.
I guess you can chalk me up as one who disagrees with it 100%. It wasn't a rule when I signed up, it wasn't a rule when I paid my membership dues.

[whitebeard]

Moving thread to correct location, leaving redirect in place.

[99RT10]

I received this PM. Who voted to "add this rule" and why?
I have never been on a forum that restricts the number of ads a member can make, let alone a paying forum/club member.
I guess you can chalk me up as one who disagrees with it 100%. It wasn't a rule when I signed up, it wasn't a rule when I paid my membership dues.



Seems one of the sponsors has a two handed grip on the VOA officer's balls and are squeezing tight. This will be my only year in the club. December comes around, I'm out.

[Red Snake]

Its ok Mike, the Alley will let you place as many as you want. No charge, lol.

[KickinAssphault]

In the interest of transparency; when? why? what justification?

[plumcrazy]

Its ok Mike, the Alley will let you place as many as you want. No charge, lol.

another trouble maker !

[XSnake]

In the interest of transparency; when? why? what justification?

It keeps people from bypassing the sponsorship fees. A couple members buy and part out cars for profit. When you start operating as a business the rules for individuals no longer apply.

[Nine Ball]

If it were up to me, I'd only allow paying members to post ads here, period. With no limit. But, if they are actually a business, they need to pay for advertising like the rest of us.

[Janni]

The classified ads are for members to sell thing to members. The expectation here is that you are on "equal footing" when it comes to the transaction - i.e. member to member. Not business to member unless you identify yourself as a business, and, as Nineball says above, pay for advertising.

For example - I might have some 1996 takeoff cast iron exhaust manifolds, left over from our 1996 days. If I sell them (ha! who would want them?) to another member - it's a pretty simple transaction between 2 "average Viper Joe's". If the limit is oppressive to an average Viper owner - we can revisit.

We're reviewing all the advertising policies, linking policies, etc as part of the discussion that took place regarding the link to the non-sponsor.

[Shooter]

If it were up to me, I'd only allow paying members to post ads here, period. With no limit. But, if they are actually a business, they need to pay for advertising like the rest of us.

Sounds like a good idea to vote on.

[ACRucrazy]

If it were up to me, I'd only allow paying members to post ads here, period. With no limit. But, if they are actually a business, they need to pay for advertising like the rest of us.

Why are the Viper forums the only forums I have ever been on that have a requirement to either pay per ad or pay for membership to post classifieds? If not that there is a restriction on the number of ads? I find it ridiculous.

It's becoming apparent to me memebers are not as important as "sponsors" being paying members or non paying. It's so ass backwards to me. Create a welcoming place that focuses on members and those sponsors that choose to advertise will benefit. Create a place that restricts members or forces people to pay or puts paying sponsors before active members weather they choose to pay dues or not and you will hurt your club.

Why does this always have to be about the money?????

[Nine Ball]

Why are the Viper forums the only forums I have ever been on that have a requirement to either pay per ad or pay for membership to post classifieds? If not that there is a restriction on the number of ads? I find it ridiculous.

1. Because this is a paid membership club. There should be incentives to being a member. Most forums are funded solely by ads.
2. I also find any restriction on ad count somewhat silly, because there might be a few crazy Viper guys out there with 100s of parts to clear out of their collection of stuff, which could benefit the rest of the members.

[XSnake]

2. I also find any restriction on ad count somewhat silly, because there might be a few crazy Viper guys out there with 100s of parts to clear out of their collection of stuff, which could benefit the rest of the members.
The original PM that the OP got also mentioned that "Extenuating circumstances' can and will arise which will be reviewed. This rule is aimed directly at the people that are acting and selling parts as a business for profit under membership status. If someone wrecks their car and is doing a part out then they obviously will be given an exemption as it says in the original PM. I do feel that 3 is a little low, should be 5 IMO.

[Granger73]

A vote sounds like a good idea. Can't believe this is in the best interest of paying members. It would be nice to see some disclosure as to what ad revenue amounts to, and what it is allocated for. Is it a ton of money? Be good to know.

[99RT10]

The original PM that the OP got also mentioned that "Extenuating circumstances' can and will arise which will be reviewed. This rule is aimed directly at the people that are acting and selling parts as a business for profit under membership status. If someone wrecks their car and is doing a part out then they obviously will be given an exemption as it says in the original PM. I do feel that 3 is a little low, should be 5 IMO.

So it's ok for some that wrecks their car to part it out for two years or more UN-restricted to flood the classifieds, but for any other PAYING member that wants to put 4 things or more for sale, it's not? Really?! Why 5, Maybe it needs to be only 1 at a time, and only after getting approval from the BOD? :mad: :mad:

[99RT10]

I received this PM. Who voted to "add this rule" and why?
I have never been on a forum that restricts the number of ads a member can make, let alone a paying forum/club member.
I guess you can chalk me up as one who disagrees with it 100%. It wasn't a rule when I signed up, it wasn't a rule when I paid my membership dues.

I know who didn't, but their concerns were tossed out like smelly trash.

[BlknBlu]

This is a great discussion and deserves to be looked at. I am sure this will be brought up at the next officers meeting.

Bruce

[Janni]

So it's okay to have a member have unlimited free access to classifieds if they have a business buying and selling cars / parts / etc.? And they don't have to identify themselves as being in business, they can just be an average Joe selling a take off from their Viper?

Just trying to get your baseline here.

[XSnake]

So it's ok for some that wrecks their car to part it out for two years or more UN-restricted to flood the classifieds, but for any other PAYING member that wants to put 4 things or more for sale, it's not? Really?! Why 5, Maybe it needs to be only 1 at a time, and only after getting approval from the BOD? :mad: :mad:

Yes it is. It was THEIR car and it's THEIR time. Who parts their car out for 2 years anyways? If you are doing a part out then one should put everything into one thread. It's much easier to manage. When people start parting out multiple cars then they are a really shitty driver or they are operating a business. I'm all for unlimited classifieds for paying members as long as they aren't operating a business.

[Nine Ball]

No. Edited version below.


So it's okay to have a paying member have unlimited free access to classifieds. If they have a business buying and selling cars / parts / etc., they do have to identify themselves as being in business, or if they are found out to be associated with a business, they would simply need to sign on for advertising.

Just trying to get your baseline here.

It really shouldn't be this difficult. Simple.

Paid membership = unlimited ads
Guest members = zero ads
Business related = cough up the sponsorship dollars

[IndyRon]

I just wish the forum were more self-policing via the other members without the need for VOA mod/admin/coordinator/executive intervention.

[FLATOUT]

I just wish the forum were more self-policing via the other members without the need for VOA mod/admin/coordinator/executive intervention.

I agree and I think some of these discussions are a good thing. You didn't get any discussion at the old site. I'm sure it will be discussed and I'm sure it will become evident if someone is abusing the system. All I ask is if you know you're abusing the system don't cry when they call you out and ask you to pay advertising dollars.

I know right now I personally have parts left over from my gen 3, and 4 that I need to garage sale out to clean out the garage so 3 ads wouldn't do me me any good either if I chose to list everything at once.

[ACRucrazy]

Again, I don't get it. It sounds like some of the sponsors who CHOSE to pay to sponsor the site, have banners, and CHOSE to advertise in 4 magazines a year are the ones who are causing issues for the MEMBERS

I am sorry. The members make this club, make this site. The members come first. $$$$ is coming before the members. And that is wrong! You chose to advertise on this forum and sponsor it. You do not pay to restrict members. When $$$ and vendors/sponsor $$$ comes before members that's where I draw the line.

Just because someone chooses not to pay to be a member, chooses not to pay to get the following:
-VIPER QUARTERLY Magazine, the full color collectible magazine for Dodge and SRT Viper enthusiasts and the official publication of the Viper Owners Association
-Your 2014 VOA membership card(s) and ID Badge(s)
-Liability ins with Viper Owners Association sponsors including many Mopar dealers, tuners, and aftermarket vendors
-Special membership-only access and posting benefits on the Viper Owners Association Website www.driveviper.com
-Viper Owners will also be noted on the website forum pages with the designation of "Member", non-owners will be noted as an "Enthusiast"
-Involvement with a VOA Chapter in your area. Contact your local president for a schedule of events and more details.
-Highly unprecedented access to our manufacturer and those who build our cars.

Doesn't mean you shouldn't be restricted from posting outside links or items for sale. You take away forum members (not paying members) you hurt the forum and club. You hurt the forum and club you hurt the vendors and sponsor who CHOSE to pay and advertise. It doesn't work the other way around. Members are the most important...

[Janni]

Ron - that's always a great idea - until there is a disagreement. And then the folks that don't "win" claim unfairness, corruption, old club vibes, stacking the deck, etc.

At some point - some decisions have to be made and they are going to be unpopular with some folks.

I am totally open to discussion on this issue - and so far - NineBall is the only person that has proposed an alternative that could be implemented. Even the folks that have the main issue here will not propose something that would have a little more balance. So it's hard to have open dialogue when the talk is so inflammatory "but their concerns were tossed out like smelly trash" or "Why does this always have to be about the money?????" where it's implied that someone (who?) is being motivated by money. Seriously? Let's go straight to the disparaging comments.

I really don't CARE about the money for things like classified ads - like I said prior - I care more about disclosing the nature of the transaction between 2 members - whether it's a business transaction for both, or whether it's a business transaction for just one.

Like I said - open to discussion as I know the rest of the officers and web committee are - but we all need to be open and honest.

i'll check with Brad also about getting some more financial statements that shows some of the income and expenses. Fair ask.

[ACRucrazy]

Where is implied that someone is being motivated by the money?


How is that not obvious? It's clear that the VOA is making changes because "its not fair to the sponsors"

What are sponsors? They may pay big money to advertise in 4 mags a year or on the website.

So... How is it NOT about the money?

And the fact that some of these rules are just being changed without the members input half way through the year is wrong. I paid to be part of a better club.. lately I feel like the club is taking away from me for the sake of some sour sponsors.

If you don't like the fact that members may sell more than 3 items at a time or post links that are not to your web store I don't want you as a sponsor. Life ain't fair, you can't have it all.

[XXX BLK]

I agree with Nine Ball and at the same time we always do right for our members. We never looked at anything just for the $$$$$ we have been doing our best to be as fair as possible for "ALL" even thought we know we can't please everyone. BUT WE TRY...If it was just for the money we would let any sponsor advertise on "OUR" club. Please don't make this about the money every time something like this come up because it's not true. Everyone enjoy your 4th and thank you for giving us a chance and we are all adults and we will find a middle ground......Adrian

[Janni]

ACRucrazy - do you have a business that sells Viper parts / products? Just trying to understand if there is something driving your concern about the classified situation. I've been clear that this is now / was not a money issue for me - but more of a full disclosure issue.

And just for the records - sponsor dollars are used to improve the website and to make things better for the members. Advertising was always a part of the budget of the club. We'd be foolish not to include it. However, if you think we should take ZERO from sponsors and have no ads, then we can consider that, but other things may have to change. Less money for the regions, maybe 3 magazines, less storage on the forums / more outages because we pay for a lower level of service, etc.

It's a balance. I don't believe that sponsor dollars talk louder than members AT ALL. And the sponsorship money is used to make the site and the club better for many members.

[ACRucrazy]

ACRucrazy - do you have a business that sells Viper parts / products? Just trying to understand if there is something driving your concern about the classified situation. I've been clear that this is now / was not a money issue for me - but more of a full disclosure issue.


Being that you expanded on this, I will expand on my reply.
NO I do not work for any business or own a business that sells Viper parts / products. I don't see why it matters.

If you want to understand my concern, it should be obvious by now I have no problem voicing it. I lurked for several years on the other forum and learned quite a bit on how it operated.
"PM me for info, PM me for prices, PM me for this that and the other"
"This guy isn't allowed to post here because he is not a paying sponsor"
"This vendor is banned for some stupid reason"

I didn't agree with it there, I don't agree with those policies here. I didn't agree with it 10 years ago when SRTforums started accepting $$ for "sponsors" and those that didn't pay, couldn't talk about their product. And those members that wanted to recommend their products couldn't. I thought it was asinine then, I still do and I quit posting over there.

If you need an example of the above, because of this thread:
http://forums.viperclub.org/threads/646152-quot-Calling-Gen-4-ACR-Owners-quot-for-a-prevention-precaution-tip.-SRT-Engineers/page2

I got into it through PMs over how they were locking any thread that had to do with JonB. I stuck up for him over there and said it was not right and it was hurting the members, it was locking down good information for some political BS. I even received several PMs from members about how they didn't agree it was a locked thread.

I am a firm believer that the forums foundation is the membership. Being those that choose to pay dues or not. Those that do not pay yet participate on the forums and share the love for whatever car (Viper in this case) are the foundation. We need those members. We need them active. We need to give them the option to be a paying member and those that choose not to, we should not hound them because of it. It's their choice. We shouldn't make comments like "I see how much membership means to you" in a nasty tone because they chose not to pay dues.

Same goes for sponsors. If you see the benefit to sponsor the forum great. If you don't like that members can talk about other products and links to other Viper related parts that are not from a paying sponsor fine. Don't be a sponsor. I don't care. Sponsor need members. It's not the other way around. I don't understand how people can't see that. Without members, paying and non paying we do not have a VOA we do not have sponsor and vendors.

When restrictions on selling Viper parts/cars and restrictions on links start to come into play that's when I stop paying to be a member. Don't get offended by it. It is what it is. Don't want members to say it, don't want to hear members are not happy, do something about it.

Members first

[LATAMUD]

So members are limited to 3 adds at a time. How difficult is it to list EVERYTHING into one add? Hell, if I was parting a car out, I would just put up 1 advertisement, "Parting out 199x Viper, let me know what you want."

I am disappointed seeing all these random policies pop up as complaints rather than just brought out into the open up front. I find things run a lot smoother if you answer the questions before they are asked.

[Janni]

Actually this IS good discussion. And yes - the club is about the members - not the sponsors. Sponsorship money SHOULD make the club better for the members - events better, website better, benefits better. So - it's a balance. Members should get value for their dollar, and so should sponsors - or else we should not have them. It would be disingenuous to take their money and then tell them they get an ad and no voice or that we don't want to provide value.

We SHOULD err on the side of the members. That is good to remind.

So - let us get through the first national event and we can address these in more detail. We're human - no one is perfect and we are trying. Decisions won't make everyone happy - as we don't all agree on how to implement some of the value propositions. If we can keep talking and not be ugly about it - we can make a difference. I apologize if I offended anyone on this thread. There is a rationale behind decisions, and often there's just not enough bandwidth to juggle debating EVERYTHING- so sometimes you make a decision and do your best. I'd like to say I am open to input and if I have erred, I can change my mind.

Thanks.

[XXX BLK]

No "Sponsor" have complain to me about anything and most of them get on the site every now and then. They love what we are doing for them and are happy to support the club/members.....So please don't make this into sponsors vs members which are more important. BOTH are EQUALLY important.

[Wot!]

Just seeing this tread makes me happy! I have not forgotten the old days... So hats off to everyone for having an open discussion. It would be nice if it was keep more civil though by all. I commend those that have done so.

After reading all of this and trying to follow everyone's perspective I have a few thoughts to share as well.

Is seems one of ACRucrazy concerns is that current sponsors are pulling the strings and I don't believe it has been addressed. I don't believe this to be true, and will give everyone involved the benefit of doubt until otherwise proven wrong. I believe the directors are simply paying attention to how the site is used and looking to keep things as fair as possible for all members. I have to agree that if you are a business as ACRUcrazy has said he is then the business should be a sponsor. All businesses incur additional expenses over non business customers (i.e. elec. bills). If you are a business then you should also expect to pay for advertising as an expense. Trying to NOT present yourself as a business is also misleading to those buying from you. I for one did not know ACRUcrazy was a business until today.

I also don't think 3 concurrent adds works. Like Janni, I have a dozen parts to sell from my 1996 car days, and would like to list them all at once. Of course I better hurry up and beat her to it... [grin] So how do you balance this? Maybe we go with honesty and trust. If a member lists more than say 6 (random number) adds they have to attest to not being a business. If a business give them an choice, x adds as a member or become a sponsor and gain additional benefits.

I'm not fully up to date on the sponsorship plans, but could there also be a plan that allows small businesses to just advertise merchandise in the classified section only?

As a baseline for making any changes I think ACRucrazy makes a good point, the members should come first. Sponsors need them, the club needs them.

The club should also think about how we go about implementing changes. Sending an email to newly offending members might not be the best process. Perhaps an announcement with a timeframe for the change to take effect allowing for open discussion before implementing would make any future changes better received.

My suggestions are just that, so if you like them fine, if not that is fine as well. I'm a firm believer that if you can complain, then you should also present a solution.

[XXX BLK]

I just want to post a quick answer to one of Wot questions. Any business large or small can advertise in the classifieds section forum for $200/6months or $400/year. I will say again know sponsor have complain to me or influence us in any decisions. I do appreciate this open conversation..Thanks

[plumcrazy]

the very fact its being discussed openly here shows its not like the old club

[ACRucrazy]

I have to agree that if you are a business as ACRUcrazy has said he is then the business should be a sponsor. All businesses incur additional expenses over non business customers (i.e. elec. bills). If you are a business then you should also expect to pay for advertising as an expense. Trying to NOT present yourself as a business is also misleading to those buying from you. I for one did not know ACRUcrazy was a business until today.

Just to clarify, I am not a business. I never said I was nor have I ever worked for one that sells Viper parts.

This isn't about me trying to lower my expenses it's about me trying to protect what's right for members.

[Granger73]

To help prioritize the issue, how much does it cost to become a sponsor for the site? How much income are we talking about here?

[ACRucrazy]

To help prioritize the issue, how much does it cost to become a sponsor for the site? How much income are we talking about here?

From what I see:
http://driveviper.com/advertise/

$200-$1,250 every 6 months to sponsor the website.
$525-$4,000 per issue or $1,785-$13,600 for 1 year commitment (4 magazine adverts) if I am looking at that correctly. If I am wrong please correct me.

[plumcrazy]

I just want to post a quick answer to one of Wot questions. Any business large or small can advertise in the classifieds section forum for $200/6months or $400/year.

here ya go

[Red Snake]

I have no dog in this fight but i think you should ask yourselves if it is important to gain more involvement on this website or to have less. On one of the other sites, there is no charge for anyone to place as many ads as they choose. The site generates huge amounts of traffic, some of it just for the classifieds.

Personally i dont think it hurts OR helps the vendors. Members who want used parts go to individuals, and those who want new parts go to vendors. Unfettered access to the classifieds would help you generate more website traffic here, IMO.

[Drummerviper]

Man, you guys need to be anonymous . Answer as "The VOA Staff" or something.

[Thawk97]

Yeah - I have to say - this seems like creating rules for the sake of rules. The classifieds here aren't all that robust in terms of numbers to begin with. I don't really see any reason additional regulations are required. If it becomes a problem that the membership is concerned with, then open a discussion. Frankly, I don't see anything in the classifieds which merits such a decision though. Seems restrictive with only theoretical purpose. Keeping it practical feels a lot better to me.

[Nine Ball]

Yeah - I have to say - this seems like creating rules for the sake of rules. The classifieds here aren't all that robust in terms of numbers to begin with. I don't really see any reason additional regulations are required. If it becomes a problem that the membership is concerned with, then open a discussion. Frankly, I don't see anything in the classifieds which merits such a decision though. Seems restrictive with only theoretical purpose. Keeping it practical feels a lot better to me.

Agreed.

We could probably even find a volunteer that would help keep the classifieds organized/managed. Just like every other site has mods that do so.

[Granger73]

Let's take this opportunity to make the VOA classifieds the "go to" site for Viper cars and parts. Right now it is a real adventure to locate Viper specific parts.

[ViperTony]

Let's take this opportunity to make the VOA classifieds the "go to" site for Viper cars and parts. Right now it is a real adventure to locate Viper specific parts.

Apparently, the classifieds loses money too. According to the classified stats -$3,657,303.00 has been lost so far.

I don't know when or how the 3 classified ad rule was made nor who made it. In the future, it would be a good idea to give the board a heads up when these things change so we're prepared for the possible noise that may arise.

I think I understand why the rule was created and I believe it may be in response to prevent businesses from selling items in the classifieds while circumventing the sponsor fees. If this is true, then that means we must have had a situation here whereby somebody was found to be a business circumventing the sponsor fee. Who was it? And, are we sure they're a business selling parts? Were they consulted? As a board member, I am unaware of any member/issue around this that may have caused this rule to be implemented. I have not seen abuse of the classifieds in this manner on our site. So I'm perplexed as to why this rule was created.

As for me personally, this rule is an inconvenience. I have a bunch of parts I need to sell from my recent modifications. It's more than 3. Listing them in one ad is not the best way to highlight or call out specific parts in the classifieds. As a member, I don't believe I should be restricted to three ads or any limit. I'm able to list as many classifieds as I like on the Alley for free and I'm not even a paying member there.

But for me this rule is not going to harm me in any way, shape or form. I will continue on with life as normal. I'll be OK and I'll find a way to get by.

If I was in the business of selling parts, I would take advantage of the sponsorship fees/benefits. If we do have businesses posing as members skirting the sponsor fees then we need to address those members directly. Let's not punish the majority for the sake of a few, or one.

That being said, I'm not certain what spawned this rule. I'd like an explanation.

[Bugman Jeff]

I don't watch the classifieds at all, so this is news to me, but it seems obvious that someone was running a for profit business through the classifieds. If that's the case, instead of punishing ALL users, why not restrict that guy with a "hey, you're clearly running a business so sign up for sponsorship." If there was no precedent, then this ruling is arbitrary and based on what "might" happen. That kind of speculation doesn't improve the classifieds, and will only reduce the number of member to member transactions.

If the leadership feels that having unrestricted classifieds is somehow harming the community, then restrict them for non-members only. Use the three ad limit for non-members, but leave it unlimited for members. Members are paying to be here after all and it would be another membership perk.

[ViperTony]

I don't watch the classifieds at all, so this is news to me, but it seems obvious that someone was running a for profit business through the classifieds.

Who? If you don't want to post names, PM me and I'll post the name.

[Bugman Jeff]

I have no idea who it was, but it seems like instead of this one individual getting a slap on the wrist, the whole community is being punished.

[ViperTony]

I have no idea who it was, but it seems like instead of this one individual getting a slap on the wrist, the whole community is being punished.

You have no idea who it was, you don't watch the classifieds but yet it seems obvious to you that someone was running a for profit business through the classifieds? Are you Nancy Pelosi posing as a Viper owner on here?

[Bugman Jeff]

Rulings like this don't generally appear out of nowhere. Even without going through them, it was clear that a precedent was set by someone that the leadership felt was running a business through the classifieds.

[ViperTony]

Rulings like this don't generally appear out of nowhere. Even without going through them, it was clear that a precedent was set by someone that the leadership felt was running a business through the classifieds.

Nancy Pelosi, welcome to the VOA! ;)

[CarolinaViper]

I don't watch the classifieds at all, so this is news to me, but it seems obvious that someone was running a for profit business through the classifieds. If that's the case, instead of punishing ALL users, why not restrict that guy with a "hey, you're clearly running a business so sign up for sponsorship." If there was no precedent, then this ruling is arbitrary and based on what "might" happen. That kind of speculation doesn't improve the classifieds, and will only reduce the number of member to member transactions.

If the leadership feels that having unrestricted classifieds is somehow harming the community, then restrict them for non-members only. Use the three ad limit for non-members, but leave it unlimited for members. Members are paying to be here after all and it would be another membership perk.

Coming from a non-paying member "BUGMAN JEFF", IF the the "CLUB" decides on a need to restrict personal classified this idea is better than restricting paying members. Also, like the thought we might increase paying membership which helps us all.

[IndyRon]

Here's something else I'd like considered and discussed. I personally know a local guy here in Indy who is working on a couple 1-off Carbon fiber parts for my ACR. There is currently no present or past vendor that offers these parts in carbon. They are hand made by him. I will NOT benefit financially if he decides to produce these for public consumption after mine are finished. He is a small business (himself only) working out of a 400sqft shop. If he were interested in selling these parts to the Viper community here, would he be forced to pay a sponsorship fee?

I ask this because he's trying to get his business off the ground and doesn't have 1k/yr for sponsorship to sell a $200-300 part at maybe ~8-10 orders per year at a 10% margin. Because of this I offered to help promote them on here when finished but it sounds like this won't be possible or permitted. He wouldn't be taking away customers from current sponsors because no one else makes these parts. I feel we need to encourage others to enter the Viper market but unfortunately these rules may work to monopolize the market into just a couple larger vendors much how the US free market is going. What say ye?

[ACRucrazy]

Ron, I believe the forums should a hub for learning, promotion and sharing of everything Viper. Restrictions hurt the members and owners of this special car. VOA should do everything to encourage more innovation and creation for the aftermarket of a car that has a total 20 year production of less than 1 year of a Corvette.

Rules for the sake of rules as Tony put it do no one any good.

[XSnake]

Here's something else I'd like considered and discussed. I personally know a local guy here in Indy who is working on a couple 1-off Carbon fiber parts for my ACR. There is currently no present or past vendor that offers these parts in carbon. They are hand made by him. I will NOT benefit financially if he decides to produce these for public consumption after mine are finished. He is a small business (himself only) working out of a 400sqft shop. If he were interested in selling these parts to the Viper community here, would he be forced to pay a sponsorship fee?

I ask this because he's trying to get his business off the ground and doesn't have 1k/yr for sponsorship to sell a $200-300 part at maybe ~8-10 orders per year at a 10% margin. Because of this I offered to help promote them on here when finished but it sounds like this won't be possible or permitted. He wouldn't be taking away customers from current sponsors because no one else makes these parts. I feel we need to encourage others to enter the Viper market but unfortunately these rules may work to monopolize the market into just a couple larger vendors much how the US free market is going. What say ye?

He is not an owner so he would be coming on the site solely to sell parts. Doesn't that make you a vendor?

[Nine Ball]

Here's something else I'd like considered and discussed. I personally know a local guy here in Indy who is working on a couple 1-off Carbon fiber parts for my ACR. There is currently no present or past vendor that offers these parts in carbon. They are hand made by him. I will NOT benefit financially if he decides to produce these for public consumption after mine are finished. He is a small business (himself only) working out of a 400sqft shop. If he were interested in selling these parts to the Viper community here, would he be forced to pay a sponsorship fee?

I ask this because he's trying to get his business off the ground and doesn't have 1k/yr for sponsorship

It doesn't cost $1000/year. There is an entry level package of $200 per 6 months. Yes, he should pay it, if he wants to sell/market his products here. I am also a 1-person shop, so are a few other advertising vendors. $400/year is dirt cheap, compared to most forums. We used to charge that per month on a far busier site.

http://driveviper.com/advertise/

The alternative is to find a current vendor that does advertise, to carry his product. Pretty common practice, in any industry.

Tony

[ACRucrazy]

So if he doesn't want to advertise here or want to pay to be in the magazine would talk of his parts on the VOA be prohibited?

I'm not talking about a vendor selling parts in the classifieds.

Just curious where it starts and stops.

[Nine Ball]

So if he doesn't want to advertise here or want to pay to be in the magazine would talk of his parts on the VOA be prohibited?

I'm not talking about a vendor selling parts in the classifieds.

Just curious where it starts and stops.

Customers discussing their purchased products is not a problem, and it shouldn't be. Customers acting as marketing representatives, sending referrals non-stop, and such, well - I would hope you know the difference. I think we all like reading product reviews, good or bad. But there is certainly a difference between someone reviewing their product, and someone that constantly posts links and sends referrals to a product.

I feel any business should consider paying the advertising fee, if they wish to capitalize on this forum. We vendors do not mind doing so, as we are also supporting a community which we enjoy. For example, I could advertise on numerous sites, but I choose to only advertise on forums for vehicle platforms that I personally enjoy. You won't find me on any import sites.

[plumcrazy]

either youre in business or not, if you are, you need to be a sponsor IMO. but my opinion doesnt count...

[Chorps]

It doesn't cost $1000/year. There is an entry level package of $200 per 6 months. Yes, he should pay it, if he wants to sell/market his products here. I am also a 1-person shop, so are a few other advertising vendors. $400/year is dirt cheap, compared to most forums. We used to charge that per month on a far busier site.

http://driveviper.com/advertise/

The alternative is to find a current vendor that does advertise, to carry his product. Pretty common practice, in any industry.

Tony

That's really cheap. I can understand if he's not wanting to pay for starting out his business, but if you want to get close to your customers you have to be where they are. Carbon parts aren't cheap so he should be able to recoup his advertising dollars rather quickly, so he'll know whether it's worth continuing his $200 spend here for another 6 months.

I'm for the open discussion of all vendors, but everyone will probably understand that there are a certain group of vendors who will try to game the system and leech off the boards without advertising...that type of discussion shouldn't be behind closed doors either. Discussed openly, discussed civilly. ;-)

[Janni]

Customers discussing their purchased products is not a problem, and it shouldn't be. Customers acting as marketing representatives, sending referrals non-stop, and such, well - I would hope you know the difference. I think we all like reading product reviews, good or bad. But there is certainly a difference between someone reviewing their product, and someone that constantly posts links and sends referrals to a product.

I feel any business should consider paying the advertising fee, if they wish to capitalize on this forum. We vendors do not mind doing so, as we are also supporting a community which we enjoy. For example, I could advertise on numerous sites, but I choose to only advertise on forums for vehicle platforms that I personally enjoy. You won't find me on any import sites.

Pretty solid logic and guidance here - thanks.

[Drummerviper]

Says a lot that this has been the biggest " controversy" of a new club. A non event IMO , but at least people are willing to get it right, and no one seems up to any silliness .

[Leslie]

either youre in business or not, if you are, you need to be a sponsor IMO. but my opinion doesnt count...

:slap: suurrreeeee it does:smilielol:



ok, I agree with Phil

[Janni]

Says a lot that this has been the biggest " controversy" of a new club. A non event IMO , but at least people are willing to get it right, and no one seems up to any silliness .

Oh - I am up to all to ALL SORTS OF SILLINESS. Just not unethical BS. :lol2:

[City]

Thanks to everyone for this discussion.

From my view, the specifics of this rule are not the issue here. For all intents and purposes, we can certainly adjust the number limitation from 3 to 5 or whatever. It should be obvious that this rule was not created to hinder VOA members from using the classified area to sell their Viper related products. Some have noted the provision for "hardship cases". If it can somehow be determined that a member needs to legitimately sell multiple items (beyond whatever is the limit), without any doubt, such a case would be considered and approved. But it would be rather odd for a member to come upon legitimate multiple NEW items (not impossible, but certainly unusual) that "needed" to be advertised. This rule WAS created to hinder all commercial vendors and "garage vendors" from marketing their products without becoming a sponsor. Defining and determining what constitutes a "commercial vendor" would likely require pages of language that would surely need to be amended on a weekly basis, so alternatively, this rule was devised and enacted.

It would appear (from my limited viewpoint) that we've got 3 reactions:

The vast majority of members who don't really give a hoot as it doesn't impact their "Viper lives" in the slightest,
A small minority of members who might be affected and/or simply find constricting conditions in general to be uncomfortable and inappropriate in a club website of this nature and
An even smaller minority who DO have some financial interest in using our classified area without paying site vendor fees.

If the previous is a reasonably accurate accounting, then we need to address the middle group and find a compromise that serves best. Let's offer and discuss alternatives.

FYI, at present, there are 4 VOA members, out of 65 members posting ads, that presently have more than 3 classified ads, 1 of which is a sponsor. That suggests that, other than conceptual disagreement (and I'm not minimizing same), we're discussing what may actually presently effects less than 5% of our members.

It should also be noted that besides precisely 3 Private Message alerts to the previously mentioned 3 members, NO other actions have been taken.

[Granger73]

For once, let's not bow to the minority. Rules should not be changed to appease a "small" minority when the "vast" majority has a different position. We get enough of that from our various local, state and federal government. Let the majority rule!

[Thawk97]

It would appear (from my limited viewpoint) that we've got 3 reactions:

The vast majority of members who don't really give a hoot as it doesn't impact their "Viper lives" in the slightest,
A small minority of members who might be affected and/or simply find constricting conditions in general to be uncomfortable and inappropriate in a club website of this nature and
An even smaller minority who DO have some financial interest in using our classified area without paying site vendor fees.



I'd even go so far as to say many of those in #2 are only uncomfortable because of the tumultuous history associated with perceived, unneeded regulation. I'd speculate this entire discussion has MUCH less to do with the practical effects of the proposed rule and MUCH more to do with the manner of its conception/inception (and what implications/precedent it sets for future regulation).

In short, the history of arbitrary, secretive/select regulation and lack of accountability for its development and enforcement means that if the current classified's (and general club) aren't crying out for this rule because of the present state of things, it makes some people very uncomfortable to see leadership taking steps to create and enforce such a thing - especially when the initial discussion and communication on it was so limited in scope.

[IndyRon]

A simple solution to this would be: In the future no admin, mod, or higher up should state a policy and have unilateral discretion in determining what is in the best interest of the forum or members of this nature and then taking action with immediate implementation. These types of issues don't need resolved in 24hrs. They can wait a week or even a month until 1 of 2 proposed options transpire.

1) A public vote takes place on the forums to see what the majority opinion is and that carries.
2) A vote among the state chapter presidents or appointed representatives. What y'all think?

[plumcrazy]

i think thats why there is a web committee and elected officers. (im not either by the way)

[ViperTony]

I have a burning sensation between my toes AND I saved 15% on my car insurance.

[01sapphirebob]

I have a burning sensation between my toes AND I saved 15% on my car insurance.


http://i1313.photobucket.com/albums/t558/weilandfrk/1347343562_Tinactin_zps502d91aa.jpg (http://s1313.photobucket.com/user/weilandfrk/media/1347343562_Tinactin_zps502d91aa.jpg.html)

[Viper Girl]

A simple solution to this would be: In the future no admin, mod, or higher up should state a policy and have unilateral discretion in determining what is in the best interest of the forum or members of this nature and then taking action with immediate implementation. These types of issues don't need resolved in 24hrs.
I know... No admin, mod or higher up states any policy... to my knowledge nothing forum related has ever been decided in 24 hours... even when we had members outraged, and screaming at us to do something NOW! with "X" forum poster... Everything is discussed thru a process... as we are now.

Every Regional President, is a member of the BOD for this club. The VOA was set up with an extremely large BOD to handle things exactly like this... Contact them with any concerns, or praise for that matter on how the new club is operating... That way they will know what their regional membership desires. Then can bring it up on the Nat'l call for discussion.



Tony, I'm sorry about your burning sensation... but... TMI... babe... TMI... :lol2:

[Janni]

Viper Girl is right - we did discuss.

Sometimes - we simply don't have the bandwidth to put anything / everything up for a public vote. And if we did - what about the only occasional forum user / poster? Is his / her voice and vote less important than the more vocal contingent? do we reach out to them and ask the question? Do the sponsors get any input here or no, just members? and forum members or VOA members only? email? mailed ballots? And what do we do with the folks that get outvoted? do we require 2/3 or a simple majority?

I am all for an open process, but please provide some more solid info on how you would implement that in a manner that was sensitive to all members, wasn't 2 or 3 folks' full time jobs, and wasn't costly. I am not saying this to be difficult - but there is a lot of angst on process, but not a ton of solid solutions. And yes - before you say 'we could do a poll' or an online vote - remember if there is coding involved for VOA members only, or reaching the non-web folks, etc.... All this needs to be considered.

[AZTVR]

Personally, I think that this type of issue is what the elected board exists for. (Yeah, maybe some aren't currently elected; but, the current club would not be here at the moment otherwise). That makes it a little biased toward dues paying members which is the way it should be. The only problem with that is that these board members are usually not representative of the average member. I mean, what kind of normal, average person would want the added job of herding rich Viper owning cats? LOL. Its definitely good to have a specific forum for public discussion of votable issues to help the leaders judge public opinion. If it were me, I would just decide and ignore the whiners.

[Bugman Jeff]

IMO, the best way to reach all members for a vote would be e-mail. Even if they're not forum active, I have to think that nearly all VOA members have an e-mail address. A "VOA Vote" email could contain a link to the discussion thread on the forum, the deadline for the vote, and instructions in the e-mail to reply to the e-mail with a "Yes" or "No" in the subject line. It would still require manual counting, but even if you got all the members to vote, it's only 1700 votes. Still cumbersome, but it's probably the best way to reach all the members for policy votes.

[City]

IMO, the best way to reach all members for a vote would be e-mail. Even if they're not forum active, I have to think that nearly all VOA members have an e-mail address. A "VOA Vote" email could contain a link to the discussion thread on the forum, the deadline for the vote, and instructions in the e-mail to reply to the e-mail with a "Yes" or "No" in the subject line. It would still require manual counting, but even if you got all the members to vote, it's only 1700 votes. Still cumbersome, but it's probably the best way to reach all the members for policy votes.

How would you "count" the lack of a vote from a disinterested member? The reason I ask is that there is a strong likelihood that the total votes tallied would be less than 50% of the membership. I could argue both that a) if you do not vote, you are giving your proxy to those that do vote and, b) that a disinterested member is fine with the decisions made by the region presidents and national administrators.

Additionally, we're discussing the governing (or more specifically the voting) differences between a democracy and a republic. Running anything beyond a small committee as a "true democracy" is simply unwieldy.


I mean, what kind of normal, average person would want the added job of herding rich Viper owning cats? (to quote AZTVR)
Never has there been more precise observation! LOL

[Granger73]

Just looked for the club bylaws and can't seem to find them. As a result i can't verify this, but If I recall correctly the founders chose to follow the Robert's rules of order. If so, there is a specific procedure for email voting.

http://ualr.edu/jdberleant/papers/email-meetings.html

[whitebeard]

I mean, what kind of normal, average person would want the added job of herding rich Viper owning cats? LOL.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk7yqlTMvp8

[Janni]

There is no documented process for email voting, but it certainly can be done. The bylaws are posted under "The Club"

The voting members of the BoD are the 4 National Officers and the regional Presidents. It would not cover the general membership voting via email.

We will consider having the BoD vote on this during the next call.

[Granger73]

I'm unable to access the bylaws using "The Club" option.

[VYPR BYT]

I'm unable to access the bylaws using "The Club" option.
It worked fine for me. I'm using Google Chrome.
Try another browser or device in case you're using your phone.
It loads a pdf reader window from which you can actually download the 23 page file if you wanted.

[City]

I'm unable to access the bylaws using "The Club" option.
Not sure what you want to research, but there is a section that specifically causes the VOA to use Robert's Rules for Board Meetings. No language beyond that.

[Granger73]

Using iPad doesn't come up. Just tried desktop works OK. It used to come up on iPad but not now for some reason.

[ViperTony]

Tony, I'm sorry about your burning sensation... but... TMI... babe... TMI... :lol2:

Oh, then I won't get into the other burning sensations I'm experiencing. Burning sensation to walk out into traffic after reading this thread in it's entirety.

[Nine Ball]

You guys/gals are making this far more complicated than it needs to be. What member would ever vote to limit themselves to 3 ads total? That number doesn't even make sense. I've already posted the simple solution, which many forums already use.

[IndyRon]

You guys/gals are making this far more complicated than it needs to be. What member would ever vote to limit themselves to 3 ads total? That number doesn't even make sense. I've already posted the simple solution, which many forums already use.

Exactly, more power in the hands of the paying members. I was actually toying with the idea of becoming a vendor even though I don't have anything to sell currently just for the additional freedoms it provides. That isn't good. If we each didn't pay 100+ to be a member, then I can totally see the board or admins making unilateral decisions regarding this. The only challenge in my mind is how to determine which issues are vote requiring issues.

[City]

You guys/gals are making this far more complicated than it needs to be. What member would ever vote to limit themselves to 3 ads total? That number doesn't even make sense. I've already posted the simple solution, which many forums already use.

For the record, the rule is three ads at the same time, not a limit of 3 ads total. As I mentioned, of our 1739 VOA members (1,751 forum registrants), this rule effects a total of 3. And that number has remained the same for over 3 weeks.

[ACRucrazy]

For the record, the rule is three ads at the same time, not a limit of 3 ads total. As I mentioned, of our 1739 VOA members (1,751 forum registrants), this rule effects a total of 3. And that number has remained the same for over 3 weeks.

<sarcasm> Totally a valuable rule to have </sarcasm>

[City]

<sarcasm> Totally a valuable rule to have </sarcasm>

I'm unclear as to your opinion. Is your sarcasm suggesting that the rule is unnecessary because it affects so few? If so, then why waste so much effort in this thread of anguish other than your being one of the 3 with more than 3 ads at present? Again, IF so, then this is a rather perfect rule in that it will appease many while affecting few; surgical in nature. I must be misunderstanding.

[ACRucrazy]

I must be misunderstanding.

You are.

[City]

You are.
Well we certainly appreciate your helpful nature here ACRucrazy. </sarcasm>

[Bugman Jeff]

Again, IF so, then this is a rather perfect rule in that it will appease many while affecting few; surgical in nature.

Who are the many it is appeasing? Except for a paid sponsor(who, as a paying sponsor, has every right to want classifieds limited), it seems that most people who've joined in this discussion don't favor a 3 post rule.

[Granger73]

As I mentioned, of our 1739 VOA members (1,751 forum registrants), this rule effects a total of 3. And that number has remained the same for over 3 weeks.

It really affects more than 3. It affects the "VAST MAJORITY" who oppose this restriction. To look at it from your perspective, this rule penalizes a total of 3 people. The majority has spoken and they oppose this rule.

[Mr. Bill]

No. Edited version below.



It really shouldn't be this difficult. Simple.

Paid membership = unlimited ads
Guest members = zero ads
Business related = cough up the sponsorship dollars

I agree......pretty simple solution that makes perfect sense.

[City]

It really shouldn't be this difficult. Simple.

Paid membership = unlimited ads
Guest members = zero ads
Business related = cough up the sponsorship dollars


I agree......pretty simple solution that makes perfect sense.

I think this is an excellent baseline that's pretty much what we're doing, with the exception of the guest member exclusion; which I think is a great addition. But no one is focusing on the enforcement, which to a great extent, falls to the moderators. BTW- We mods certainly influence these rules, but we don't create them.

Regardless, it's our enforcement of these rules that is problematic. In this case, please comment on how we are to make a determination between "Paid Membership" and "Business Related". THAT is how this all began.

[XSnake]

Regardless, it's our enforcement of these rules that is problematic. In this case, please comment on how we are to make a determination between "Paid Membership" and "Business Related". THAT is how this all began.

This I believe is the key issue. It is pretty obvious when people are parting out multiple cars continuously. I'm sure you guys could also add a "Why am I selling" field to classifieds listings. This is a common question that buyers would ask a seller anyways. A PM to the seller by a mod could also work getting an explanation.

Also, when people come on the site and start a thread trying to sell the forum members something they need to get a PM from a mod with an explanation of site rules. There is a thread currently on the site where a member is openly making and selling parts for profit. That member should be required to be a sponsor.

[ACRucrazy]

This I believe is the key issue. It is pretty obvious when people are parting out multiple cars continuously. I'm sure you guys could also add a "Why am I selling" field to classifieds listings. This is a common question that buyers would ask a seller anyways. A PM to the seller by a mod could also work getting an explanation.

Also, when people come on the site and start a thread trying to sell the forum members something they need to get a PM from a mod with an explanation of site rules. There is a thread currently on the site where a member is openly making and selling parts for profit. That member should be required to be a sponsor.

What is www.flatoutmotorsports.us in your sig? Is that your company?

[XSnake]

What is www.flatoutmotorsports.us in your sig? Is that your company?

It is a DE group. If it's ruled that that link needs to come out of my sig, I'm not gonna cry and start a thread over it.

[ACRucrazy]

It is a DE group. If it's ruled that that link needs to come out of my sig, I'm not gonna cry and start a thread over it.

Just curious where the sponsorship thing starts and stops. You know, being a link to a non sponsor site in a regional VPs sig and all.

[ViperTony]

Links in signatures are tearing this board apart! :witless:

[plumcrazy]

the ones that i wanna know how to deal with are the bi-zenon headlight guys of the site. sure seems to be selling enough to be a sponsor but said hes not. how do we deal with those types of guys that are viper owners and members ?

EDIT: scratch that.. hes not even a VOA member http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/1922-The-Ultimate-Bi-xenon-Projector-Upgrade-for-the-Gen-2-Viper

[FLATOUT]

Just curious where the sponsorship thing starts and stops. You know, being a link to a non sponsor site in a regional VPs sig and all.

Legit point.

[SmoknTires]

Reading this thread. Good discussion - however sometimes I'm just amazed at how some folks can come off so brash.

First off, this isn't the end of the world - as I see some joking about it already. This is a decision that needs to be made and can easily be put to a vote. While Janni in my eyes has probably predicted the future best - anyone not winning the vote will simply continue to scream - it can surely be discussed. I like the topic, and can understand the points some of those affecting are making. Good to discuss.

In my mind it's apparent that if left "wide open" (as a few who clearly have a personal/financial outcome tied to this), this can be abused. However, where is the line drawn to both allow for some of this, but restrain that abuse. The problem isn't as much the topic, both sides of the argument would agree to compromise, however the solution itself is where the water gets muddy. It would be wonderful to leave this all up to judgment - and just lets mods pick out the "undercover vendors" taking advantage of the system and contact them. But we know that won't work. I guess that's where 3, 5, etc... could make sense. We need a clear line that is understandable and easy to follow. We do need a logic, if we argue opinion we'll be here forever. Part of the logic should indeed be what makes sense for the majority. Part of the logic should be weighing what other affects this has (on vendors for instance). And part of the logic should be providing all members with the ability to get the most out of their experience on the forum/classifieds (by allowing enough usage to provide them value).

I for one do want free information exchange, but I also don't like seeing folks take advantage and going overboard leveraging overly liberal policies. I also believe that sponsors do deserve the space that they get because they are the ones holding us up on their shoulders. And for those who say it's all about money - it's not, but it's a component - and there's nothing wrong with that. The forum, server, and connection - wouldn't be here if it wasn't for them. This is all a privilege. (and conversely, for those who seem to have issue with a limitation, it seems money is very much at the heart of your own argument - right?)

So let's stay away from calling this a money grab, dictatorship, censorship, or of course... the VCA. It's (most definitely) none of those things. Let's get back on topic and be reasonable. I for one do believe there needs to be a line. Sorry. Where the line is, is where I believe the conversation needs to be right now. I'm seeing the ads myself and it's clear that some are making a business of this, even if they aren't - it's taking liberties with the intent of the classifieds.

[Nine Ball]

I think this is an excellent baseline that's pretty much what we're doing, with the exception of the guest member exclusion; which I think is a great addition. But no one is focusing on the enforcement, which to a great extent, falls to the moderators. BTW- We mods certainly influence these rules, but we don't create them.

Regardless, it's our enforcement of these rules that is problematic. In this case, please comment on how we are to make a determination between "Paid Membership" and "Business Related". THAT is how this all began.

Another reason for only allowing paid members to post ads: Less potential for scammers. Paid VOA members have provided their identity, addresses, and contact info, as well as payment information, to the VOA. That means they likely haven't joined the site, just to scam people. On every other forum, scammers act like normal members and "sell" something, collect the cash, and disappear. I'd rather buy from paid membership people, on a paid membership club. Consider it a perk for joining.

I'm on here daily, would volunteer to police the classifieds to monitor for shady business like ads. I will zap them without fear. Being a paid sponsor here, I have incentive to protect the other paying sponsors from businesses that try to undercut us. But, I'd rather the classifieds be limited to only paid members, period.

[AZTVR]

Another reason for only allowing paid members to post ads: Less potential for scammers. Paid VOA members have provided their identity, addresses, and contact info, as well as payment information, to the VOA. That means they likely haven't joined the site, just to scam people. On every other forum, scammers act like normal members and "sell" something, collect the cash, and disappear. I'd rather buy from paid membership people, on a paid membership club. Consider it a perk for joining.

I'm on here daily, would volunteer to police the classifieds to monitor for shady business like ads. I will zap them without fear. Being a paid sponsor here, I have incentive to protect the other paying sponsors from businesses that try to undercut us. But, I'd rather the classifieds be limited to only paid members, period.

The ads in the classifieds clearly show the status of the seller as Enthusiast, VOA member, Mamba member; so, the reader already has the capability of limiting their purchase accordingly.

As a former owner and now an "Enthusiast", I appreciate the capability of selling a few spare parts directly to Viper owners who might not be so motivated to figure out how to search eBay for what they want. I would have thought that a majority of club members would like having easy access to Viper parts ads in the classifieds. When I was looking to replace a couple of Dynamics Suspensions shocks on my '02 ACR, it was very convenient to have folks advertising them in the classifieds even if they were not members. They were not advertising them on eBay.

[City]

Another reason for only allowing paid members to post ads: Less potential for scammers. Paid VOA members have provided their identity, addresses, and contact info, as well as payment information, to the VOA. That means they likely haven't joined the site, just to scam people. On every other forum, scammers act like normal members and "sell" something, collect the cash, and disappear. I'd rather buy from paid membership people, on a paid membership club. Consider it a perk for joining.

I'm on here daily, would volunteer to police the classifieds to monitor for shady business like ads. I will zap them without fear. Being a paid sponsor here, I have incentive to protect the other paying sponsors from businesses that try to undercut us. But, I'd rather the classifieds be limited to only paid members, period.


The ads in the classifieds clearly show the status of the seller as Enthusiast, VOA member, Mamba member; so, the reader already has the capability of limiting their purchase accordingly.

As a former owner and now an "Enthusiast", I appreciate the capability of selling a few spare parts directly to Viper owners who might not be so motivated to figure out how to search eBay for what they want. I would have thought that a majority of club members would like having easy access to Viper parts ads in the classifieds. When I was looking to replace a couple of Dynamics Suspensions shocks on my '02 ACR, it was very convenient to have folks advertising them in the classifieds even if they were not members. They were not advertising them on eBay.
I have to chuckle a bit because this is a perfect example of what the mods and board are faced with. Two opposed and yet quite reasonable opinions. I'm swayed each way after reading. I'm just sayin' it ain't as easy as some might think. Thanks for the ongoing discussion.

[IndyRon]

Another reason for only allowing paid members to post ads: Less potential for scammers. Paid VOA members have provided their identity, addresses, and contact info, as well as payment information, to the VOA. That means they likely haven't joined the site, just to scam people. On every other forum, scammers act like normal members and "sell" something, collect the cash, and disappear. I'd rather buy from paid membership people, on a paid membership club. Consider it a perk for joining.

I'm on here daily, would volunteer to police the classifieds to monitor for shady business like ads. I will zap them without fear. Being a paid sponsor here, I have incentive to protect the other paying sponsors from businesses that try to undercut us. But, I'd rather the classifieds be limited to only paid members, period.

I don't think it can be you though since you are a paid vendor and would have a theoretical (even if not actual) bias. If you stop being a vendor, then I agree you could be the classifieds police.

[SmoknTires]

My feelings exactly. Good discussion and frankly I don't have a good opinion yet on where the best solution is.

[Drummerviper]

My feelings exactly. Good discussion and frankly I don't have a good opinion yet on where the best solution is.

And I'm willing to bet no one gets banned.

[ACRucrazy]

The ads in the classifieds clearly show the status of the seller as Enthusiast, VOA member, Mamba member; so, the reader already has the capability of limiting their purchase accordingly.

As a former owner and now an "Enthusiast", I appreciate the capability of selling a few spare parts directly to Viper owners who might not be so motivated to figure out how to search eBay for what they want. I would have thought that a majority of club members would like having easy access to Viper parts ads in the classifieds. When I was looking to replace a couple of Dynamics Suspensions shocks on my '02 ACR, it was very convenient to have folks advertising them in the classifieds even if they were not members. They were not advertising them on eBay.

Agreed with this. The classifieds show weather you are a member, enthusiast, how many forum posts you have and what your classified feedback score is. Putting limits on how many items someone can post or making sure they are a paying member only restricts what may be offered and that is no good for a small community such as the Viper community.

[Bugman Jeff]

the ones that i wanna know how to deal with are the bi-zenon headlight guys of the site. sure seems to be selling enough to be a sponsor but said hes not. how do we deal with those types of guys that are viper owners and members ?

EDIT: scratch that.. hes not even a VOA member http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/1922-The-Ultimate-Bi-xenon-Projector-Upgrade-for-the-Gen-2-Viper

This is my concern because I'm an inventive guy and may some day come up with a Widget I'd like to share with the community(and by share, I mean sell). The headlight guy(the diffuser blade guy fits in here too) is making and selling a kit for profit, but should he be required to be a sponsor? He has one product that he sells, and he hasn't sold 20 of them yet. I'm willing to bet that the profit he's made at this point has covered his R&D and overhead costs, but if you add in a sponsorship cost he'd still be close to break even. Add in renewing the sponsorship cost when it expires and initial demand has also dropped, and he could be in the negative. Right now, he's offering a unique product for the Viper community. If he were forced to pay for sponsorship, he might not have offered the kits for sale at all(as it is, he's thinking of calling it quits when his current stock dries up). The choices I see in this type of situation are A) a guy offers a good product at a good price to forum members and makes a small profit or B) he has to become a sponsor, possibly negating his profit and incentive to offer the product to the community at all.

[City]

And I'm willing to bet no one gets banned.

THANK YOU! :dude3:

[ACRucrazy]

This is my concern because I'm an inventive guy and may some day come up with a Widget I'd like to share with the community(and by share, I mean sell). The headlight guy(the diffuser blade guy fits in here too) is making and selling a kit for profit, but should he be required to be a sponsor? He has one product that he sells, and he hasn't sold 20 of them yet. I'm willing to bet that the profit he's made at this point has covered his R&D and overhead costs, but if you add in a sponsorship cost he'd still be close to break even. Add in renewing the sponsorship cost when it expires and initial demand has also dropped, and he could be in the negative. Right now, he's offering a unique product for the Viper community. If he were forced to pay for sponsorship, he might not have offered the kits for sale at all(as it is, he's thinking of calling it quits when his current stock dries up). The choices I see in this type of situation are A) a guy offers a good product at a good price to forum members and makes a small profit or B) he has to become a sponsor, possibly negating his profit and incentive to offer the product to the community at all.

Bingo.

[Nine Ball]

This is my concern because I'm an inventive guy and may some day come up with a Widget I'd like to share with the community(and by share, I mean sell). The headlight guy(the diffuser blade guy fits in here too) is making and selling a kit for profit, but should he be required to be a sponsor? He has one product that he sells, and he hasn't sold 20 of them yet. I'm willing to bet that the profit he's made at this point has covered his R&D and overhead costs, but if you add in a sponsorship cost he'd still be close to break even. Add in renewing the sponsorship cost when it expires and initial demand has also dropped, and he could be in the negative. Right now, he's offering a unique product for the Viper community. If he were forced to pay for sponsorship, he might not have offered the kits for sale at all(as it is, he's thinking of calling it quits when his current stock dries up). The choices I see in this type of situation are A) a guy offers a good product at a good price to forum members and makes a small profit or B) he has to become a sponsor, possibly negating his profit and incentive to offer the product to the community at all.

This is Business 101. Each and every vendor has to consider the exact same thing. Is the profit worth running the business? I used to build a knock retard module for early LS1 engines, and had to advertise on LS1.com to sell them. I sold a lot the first 3 months, then the demand dropped. At some point, maybe six months in, the product couldn't sustain the advertising. But, the products still got out there, and I had them on ebay later. Good products will find a market. I don't find it ethically right to try and advertise for free, where others are paying to advertise. That is what Craigslist is for. I don't sell a lot of wheels to the Viper community, either. Maybe 1-2 sets a month? But, I still like supporting the community that I participate in. I'd never get rich by selling wheels here, probably would starve actually.

[XSnake]

This is my concern because I'm an inventive guy and may some day come up with a Widget I'd like to share with the community(and by share, I mean sell). The headlight guy(the diffuser blade guy fits in here too) is making and selling a kit for profit, but should he be required to be a sponsor? He has one product that he sells, and he hasn't sold 20 of them yet.

I can't speak to the #'s for the HID's but that is NOT the first diffuser blade thread or group buy.

[TowDawg]

the ones that i wanna know how to deal with are the bi-zenon headlight guys of the site. sure seems to be selling enough to be a sponsor but said hes not. how do we deal with those types of guys that are viper owners and members ?

EDIT: scratch that.. hes not even a VOA member http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/1922-The-Ultimate-Bi-xenon-Projector-Upgrade-for-the-Gen-2-Viper

I'm assuming this thread got zapped (not that there's a problem if it was advertising)? Was going to see what all hoopla was about, but it says I do not have permission to access it.

[KNG SNKE]

the ones that i wanna know how to deal with are the bi-zenon headlight guys of the site. sure seems to be selling enough to be a sponsor but said hes not. how do we deal with those types of guys that are viper owners and members ?

EDIT: scratch that.. hes not even a VOA member http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/1922-The-Ultimate-Bi-xenon-Projector-Upgrade-for-the-Gen-2-Viper

I would like to see the response to this as well since I fall under the category of one of those guys. Grant it I have not had the blades produced since this forum has been around but there are a few members trying to generate enough interest to get another batch produced. Sponsorship fees for that? Definitely not. The profit margin doesn't support it. Additionally I purchased 2 Vipers a while back and parted them out. Sponsorship fees for that? I can see why I would be asked for that, and the profit margin supports it, however I'm not a vendor nor is stripping cars anywhere near my profession. It's a hobby. Honestly the tighter you squeeze the reins the more folks that will be driven away. To eaches own and I wish you luck with your decisions, it's not an easy one. After deployment I may sign up for the club, we will see how the current affairs are at that time and I actually will have time to participate online and events. I went from daily online forum posting to maybe once a month average.

[ACRucrazy]

I would like to see the response to this as well since I fall under the category of one of those guys. Grant it I have not had the blades produced since this forum has been around but there are a few members trying to generate enough interest to get another batch produced. Sponsorship fees for that? Definitely not. The profit margin doesn't support it. Additionally I purchased 2 Vipers a while back and parted them out. Sponsorship fees for that? I can see why I would be asked for that, and the profit margin supports it, however I'm not a vendor nor is stripping cars anywhere near my profession. It's a hobby. Honestly the tighter you squeeze the reins the more folks that will be driven away. To each own and I wish you luck with your decisions, it's not an easy one. After deployment I may sign up for the club, we will see how the current affairs are at that time and I actually will have time to participate online and events. I went from daily online forum posting to maybe once a month average.

As someone who has parted out probably 4-5 vehicles in the last 15 years I definitely agree with the hobby thing. Overall a great post and thank you for your service.

As far as the whole sponsorship thing goes, here we have a non sponsor group buy going.

http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/4370-GROUP-BUY-Arrow-Racing-Carbon-Fiber-Closeout-Panel

how does that work?

And to clarify, I don't think this group buy, the HID Gen 2 kits, the diffuser blades or even the regional VPs for profit group link in his signature are an issue. My view is if sponsors want to advertise and pay to do so, they get something others don't. We shouldn't be forcing others to pay to sponsor just because others make the choice.

[Nine Ball]

My view is if sponsors want to advertise and pay to do so, they get something others don't. We shouldn't be forcing others to pay to sponsor just because others make the choice.

We do not pay to advertise, just to have a banner ad occasionally pop up. I could do more FREE advertising by just going around posting links to my site, in my signature. Then what would be the point? Your stance makes zero sense, in this regard. If the VOA doesn't want to have advertising revenue, I'm all for that. I would certainly choose to do free advertising, than paid-for advertising.

But, would that be ethically correct, if others are paying to advertise here?

[ACRucrazy]

Paying to be a sponsor gets you:


-Rotating, static, and/or animated banners on the national website
-Your forum avatar will have the title of "site sponsor"
-You will be allowed a custom signature on your posts
-You will receive a dedicated forum in the "Vendor Showcase" for your company
-Your full size banner will be added to a sponsor page (with link to your website)
-You can request customized statistics for web usage/hits on your banner(s)

Being a sponsor gets you more than some guy selling a few HID kits or diffuser blades. You get all the above, he does not.


The Viper Owners Association wants to establish a thriving vendor connection as a resource to its club members. There are terrific opportunities for businesses to connect directly to Viper owners and enthusiasts to help spread the word on their products and services. That connection can be made through the following two methods

No where on the Sponsorship page of the VOA does it state being a sponsor prevents non sponsors from selling on the forum or restrict links on the forums to non sponsor sites.


So I guess my questions to whoever from the VOA can give solid answers remain.

Are links in posts to non sponsors OK?
Are group buys to non sponsors OK?
Are links in signatures (of regional VPs no less) to non sponsors OK?
Why is the VOA limiting FS ads?
Who made that decision?

I'm not against sponsors, regional VPs, links in sigs, parting out cars, or even the group buy thing. I just see some grey area with no continuity with what appears to be a few people making up silly rules as they go along.

[ViperTony]

No. Edited version below.

It really shouldn't be this difficult. Simple.

Paid membership = unlimited ads
Guest members = zero ads
Business related = cough up the sponsorship dollars

I agree with you Nine Ball except that I think Guests should be able to post ads but pay an ad fee to do so. $30 per ad for example.

I had this same exact issue on another site that has been mentioned in this thread. The 'issue' went unnoticed until a paid sponsor alerted the mods about alleged abuse of the classifieds by non-sponsors. There was one legitimate case and that 'sponsor' ended up paying a sponsor fee. The other case (total of two) was a member selling parts from a Viper part out. Non-business but a local member who came across a great deal on a wrecked Viper. Ads were created and a sponsor became upset. In all cases, the mods reached out to the alleged abusers (a total of two over 6 years) and inquired as to whether they were businesses or not. If they were a business and planned on selling on the site they were required to pay a sponsor fee. A policy was then formed, behind the scenes, without any input from sponsors or members that required part hobbyists to pay a sponsor fee for posting ads. It was an example of punishing the many in order not to deal with the one offender directly.

Two months ago a sponsor contacted me and complained about abuses in the classifieds here. I directed the sponsor to contact the mods. I don't know of any other complaints from sponsors.

Learning from past mistakes I recommend that this classified ad rule be eliminated. It's not needed. As a board member, I am unaware of any reports/incidents/abuses of the classifieds here. I am also unaware of complaints from sponsors (except for one) about this 'issue'. I simply don't see the justification for this rule.

We have to remember that we are a club formed around a nice vehicle with very little aftermarket support. Parts are hard to come by especially for older generation Vipers. We are also a community whereby we have members that are creative enough to invent diffuser blades (as an example) with little-no margin for the sake of hobby and helping fellow Viper owners. Members support members. Often times, it's niche products that no other sponsor offers or competes against. We need this support from our members and we should be encouraging members to post up products they think will help the Viper community. We don't have the luxury of being a mass-produced vehicle with mass-produced sponsors/vendors/after-market products.

Get rid of the rule. And if more mods are needed to help oversee the site than recruit more mods. Less rules.

[ACRucrazy]

Overall great post! I agree with pretty much everything except having to pay to sell something. Like you said, small community with few parts. Paying to sell will only prevent people from selling stuff here. If I want to pay to sell I'll use eBay

[ViperTony]

Overall great post! I agree with pretty much everything except having to pay to sell something. Like you said, small community with few parts. Paying to sell will only prevent people from selling stuff here. If I want to pay to sell I'll use eBay

Use ebay then. You have choices.

[ACRucrazy]

Looking out for the community. Not the revenue the classifieds bring the VOA.

Paying $30 to sell a free bottle of touch up paint or $15 license plate bracket or K&N filter makes no sense. Would rather a member get cheap parts than eBay.

[BlknBlu]

Let me throw my 2 cents in as possible criteria. That is what this is about is breaking down the ads to who can do what and how many items. Again with membership it has it's priveledgss. Enthusiasts should have to pay to post items in the classifieds, Members limit to 5 items a month, Mamba Members get unlimited items to sell as long as it is not a business item(like rain covered hood vents....lol). Vendors also have unrestricted items to sell.

On another note, 1 single thread should be made(if desired) when notating an item in the classified section. We do not need to see every forum updated that gold plated lug nuts are for sale.

This is very basic and can be modified.

Bruce

[XSnake]

Looking out for the community. Not the revenue the classifieds bring the VOA.

Paying $30 to sell a free bottle of touch up paint or $15 license plate bracket or K&N filter makes no sense. Would rather a member get cheap parts than eBay.

A member wouldn't have to pay the fee

[Granger73]

I think ViperTony has nailed it. Every possible effort to provide part sources for members should be made. It will get tougher to come up with these parts as time goes by. This should be the "go to" destination to find Viper parts.

[ACRucrazy]

The VCA and if VOA does the same, would be the only forums I have ever been on that charge forum members (not paying members) to sell in the classifieds.

Getting "free classifieds" for paying members is a benefit only if we say it is and accept it. We already pay "Viper Tax" by owning a Viper. Why should we have to pay "Viper Tax" on our own website? Makes no sense.

[ViperTony]

I couldn't give two shits about the feelings of guests paying for ads. I'm more concerned with paying members.

[ACRucrazy]

I couldn't give two shits about the feelings of guests paying for ads. I'm more concerned with paying members.

So if someone doesn't pay, they are guests to you. Got it.

[ViperTony]

So if someone doesn't pay, they are guests to you. Got it.

Pay for what?

[ACRucrazy]

To be a member? I guess I am misunderstanding your who you are calling guests.

[ViperTony]

To be a member? I guess I am misunderstanding your who you are calling guests.

Correct. I believe the free classifieds should be a member benefit. Hopefully that clarifies it a bit.

Can't we all just meet up somewhere, drink some beers and hash this out? I hope some of you will be in Detroit. Randall said he'd buy rounds of beers for us in Detroit while we work this out. True story.

[ACRucrazy]

Correct. I believe the free classifieds should be a member benefit. Hopefully that clarifies it a bit.

Can't we all just meet up somewhere, drink some beers and hash this out? I hope some of you will be in Detroit. Randall said he'd buy rounds of beers for us in Detroit while we work this out. True story.

I am a paying member. And in my opinion, getting free classifieds is not a "benefit" I should have to pay for. Being a Viper owner and forum member who participates and shares the enthusiasm for a special car is all that should be required to sell in the classifieds. Just because I pay to be a member doesn't mean I will complain to mods or presidents that someone who doesn't pay can do it for free.

Like I said, the Viper forums are the ONLY forums I have ever been on that have required its active members to PAY to sell items. That makes no sense. It's a Viper Tax. It's not needed.

I do not look down upon forum members who choose not to pay. If they own a Viper, share enthusiasm and participates on the forums is the only prerequisite to receive respect and equal treatment from me.

And I find it completely out of line that a Regional President "couldn't give two shits about the feelings of guests"

"Guests" make the VOA. I will be in Detroit, my car won't be hard to miss. I will gladly share my opinion if asked. But my opinion won't change from what I have already shared here.

[ViperTony]

And I find it completely out of line that a Regional President "couldn't give two shits about the feelings of guests"


That's not what I wrote. I clearly wrote "I couldn't give two shits about the feelings of guests paying for ads. I'm more concerned with paying members."

If my posts bother you, you have the option of ignoring my posts. Otherwise, I couldn't give two shits about that either.

[ACRucrazy]

That's not what I wrote. I clearly wrote "I couldn't give two shits about the feelings of guests paying for ads. I'm more concerned with paying members."

If my posts bother you, you have the option of ignoring my posts. Otherwise, I couldn't give two shits about that either.

1. Since when are forum members "guests"
2. Why is a forum member less important to you?

[ViperTony]

1. Since when are forum members "guests"

They're Enthusiasts actually. This site exists because of the club, the Viper Owner's Association. The VOA is graciously allowing Enthusiasts to be guests on our club's website.


2. Why is a forum member less important to you?

I don't see non-club members or Enthusiasts as any less or more important to me. I guess if they're a douche-bag then anyone in that regard is certainly less important to me. Can you phrase your question with more detail? Less important than what? I'm not following.

But I believe the classifieds should be free for paying VOA club members as I believe it is a benefit of being a member of the VOA. Non-club members should pay to use that benefit provided by the VOA.

[Bugman Jeff]

We have to remember that we are a club formed around a nice vehicle with very little aftermarket support. Parts are hard to come by especially for older generation Vipers. We are also a community whereby we have members that are creative enough to invent diffuser blades (as an example) with little-no margin for the sake of hobby and helping fellow Viper owners. Members support members. Often times, it's niche products that no other sponsor offers or competes against. We need this support from our members and we should be encouraging members to post up products they think will help the Viper community. We don't have the luxury of being a mass-produced vehicle with mass-produced sponsors/vendors/after-market products.


This. If I make a Thingamagig for my Viper, I'm making it because I can't buy one. If I need it and can't buy it, there is a good chance that others need it and can't buy it too. I've already got the mold, design, etc and can produce it to sell to others. Profit is not my motive, the only reason I'd charge for the part is to recoup my costs and pay for my time. I'm not trying to get something for nothing by screwing the paying sponsors, I'm trying to to provide the community with options they wouldn't otherwise have had without putting myself in the hole.

I actually do make and sell a part on another(non-car) forum. In that case, it is an "I have the molds already and can easily make more parts" situation. I didn't make the original part with the idea of selling more, I made it because it was something I wanted for myself. After the first dozen were sold, I was at break even on my R&D costs. On each additional one I've sold, I've made $5 profit. If I had to pay for membership on that forum to sell my parts, I'd still be in the hole $60, and there isn't enough future demand for my parts to cover that. I could easily have doubled the price and still sold almost as many, but that's not why I produce them. I know that's how business works in the real world, but for me, I don't sell them to make a profit, I sell them to help out the community. Paying the forum to sell them would be the difference between my making a small profit, or not offering an otherwise unavailable product to the community at all. No one wins in that scenario.

[ACRucrazy]

But I believe the classifieds should be free for paying VOA club members as I believe it is a benefit of being a member of the VOA. Non-club members should pay to use that benefit provided by the VOA.

And this is where our beliefs differ.

Being a Viper owner who participates on the forums and shares enthusiasm for a special car should all that is required to sell. Making "enthusiasts" ( That term is a whole other topic I disagree with) pay to sell could mean they may just not sell what they have. And with a small community with little parts that is not what we need.

Maybe a discussion for beers.

http://www.skyscanner.net/sites/default/files/image_import/beer.cheers.JPG

[City]

Regardless, it's our enforcement of these rules that is problematic. In this case, please comment on how we are to make a determination between "Paid Membership" and "Business Related". THAT is how this all began.

There's a great deal of tangential discussion going on here. We've never suggested charging for classified ads. If that alternative is part of master plan regarding on site advertising, we might want to leave that for the moment.

I'd like more specific comments on how the moderators are to make a determination between commercial and non-commercial (non-sponsor) forum members that are advertising viper parts/accessories. Please suggest the criteria which we can use to make the determination between non-commercial (hobbyist) vs. commercial. "Hobbyist advertisers" posting suggestions might want to consider role reversal, i.e., consider yourself a commercial site sponsor selling Viper parts/accessories and paying sponsor fees. Consider your comments from the opposite point of view as if you were addressing a "hobbyist advertiser" that was impinging on your business.

[ViperTony]

I'd like more specific comments on how the moderators are to make a determination between commercial and non-commercial (non-sponsor) forum members that are advertising viper parts/accessories. Please suggest the criteria which we can use to make the determination between non-commercial (hobbyist) vs. commercial. "Hobbyist advertisers" posting suggestions might want to consider role reversal, i.e., consider yourself a commercial site sponsor selling Viper parts/accessories and paying sponsor fees. Consider your comments from the opposite point of view as if you were addressing a "hobbyist advertiser" that was impinging on your business.

OK. Maybe trying to define via some real-world scenarios may help.

Scenario #1: Tony's Auto World

I am BrickHouse Viper. I am a paying sponsor here and often advertise my Vipers for sale. I happen to see a Viper(s) for sale in the VOA classifieds from Tony's Auto World. I report it to the mods. The mods look up Tony's Auto World and see that it's a commercial auto sales business. Further, title says "Enthusiast". It's a commercial auto sales business. I call the number in the Ad and confirm Brickhouse's suspicions. I remove the ad and alert Tony's Auto World.

I am BrickHouse Viper. I am a paying sponsor here and often advertise my Vipers for sale. I happen to see a Viper for sale in the VOA classifieds from member MyAssHurts. MyAssHurts is a member, doesn't appear to be in the Viper sales business. Ad states she's upgrading to a new Viper. I don't report anything. I'm OK.

Scenario #2: Michele's Parts Hoarding

I am Big Ass Automotive. I sell parts, a lot of them, from parted-out Vipers. I happen to stumble across the classifieds and see one or more ads from Michele, a VOA member. Michele seems to be parting out a Viper and has list one or more ads detailing the parts she's trying to sell. I'm not sure if Michele is really a business or just a member trying to make an extra buck. To be sure, I alert the mods. I, a mod, check out the ad. I don't see anything out of the ordinary. But, to be sure, I call Michele and ask her if she's running a business that sells Viper parts or just parting out a Viper for the fun of it. I let her know that we require businesses that wish to sell parts here to become a sponsor. She understand but states it doesn't apply to her since this is a one-time project. I let Big Ass automotive know my findings. Big Ass automotive is thankful for the followup.

Scenario #3: PrincessSnake's Curb Feelers

A Yellow Viper owner/member PrincessSnake (the fastest kind of Viper) decided to make one-off customs curb feelers for her Viper using wire from Home Despot and JB Weld in his home garage. Excited, she asks if any of her fellow Viper owners would like them too. Seeing as there's interest, she offers a few sets to be made for a nominal fee. ViperDustBin, a paying site sponsor, spots the feelers thread. Curious, Johanna from ViperDustBin looks into the thread. Seeing as Johanna does not sell Viper curb feelers and is not competing on curb feelers Johanna is relieved and actually offers to help sell the curb feelers on her site.

Scenario #4: Flatulent Air Ducts

Commercial business (FlatulentAir) and site sponsor selling an intake duct modification that allegedly adds 10rwhp to Vipers. Willy, a member, lists a classified ad for 10 sets of a newly-designed intake duct modifications he "found" in the VOA classifieds. Although she will take your money and never ship you the product because her shipping girl died (suddenly like right now).... Stephanie from FlatulentAir reports the ad to the moderators. A moderator, AsianDelight, looks into ad and questions the number of intake ducts for sale even though the member states "I'm not a business" and "not in Texas" in the ad. Not satisfied, Asian Delight calls the member. Willy swears that he's not pulling a fast one over on AsianDelight. Willy happened to "find" the ducts and wants to get rid of them. AsianDelight is satisfied with the explanation and moves on.

Later, someone alerts AsianDelight that Willy is really a business that makes knock-off parts overseas and uses various aliases on websites to get around fees for placing ads. Kindly, the person sends AsianDelight proof of this. AsianDelight verifies.

With blind rage and feeling as he was just teased by a group of young, horny Asian girls who stole his wallet during a lap-dance....AsianDelight drives to Willy's business. Nobody knows what happened next but Willy moved locations in Texas and was never found again. Coincidentally, Willy's never heard from again and his ads are gone.

[ACRucrazy]

I have no idea what just happened. But it was amazing.

[Shooter]

Wtf?

[Red Snake]

lol, how does something so simple become a 6 page thread and culminate with someones big ass hurting? :D

[CarolinaViper]

Great examples...Just wondering if "PrincessSnake is a transvestite? Not because she had a yellow Viper, but because "She" builds things with "wire from Home Despot and JB Weld in "HIS" home garage. Just trying to add a little humor...hope you guys meet up next week and work things out over beers or new keys to a VIPER. Someone there is going to be a winner of a nice new VIPER...won't be me unfortunately, I will be at the beach with my three favorite girls. Four if you count the dog.

[IndyRon]

I couldn't give two shits about the feelings of guests paying for ads. I'm more concerned with paying members.

WAY too exclusionist and elitist man. If you drive a viper, you belong on this forum and actively participating IMHO.

[XSnake]

I want to nominate post #140 for post of the year

[whitebeard]

Is "Flatulent Air Ducts" for sale? I'd like to buy the company.

I even have a mascot

http://www.sondrakistan.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/mongo-pawn.jpg


http://treasure.diylol.com/uploads/post/image/288292/resized_jesus-says-meme-generator-jesus-says-dont-push-mongo-9b575b.jpghttp://www.tabfox.com/pictures/Mongo_Jerry.jpg

[KNG SNKE]

Just to throw a slight bit of fuel in the fire there are plenty of "enthusiasts" on this forum who have given more to the community then your or I ever will. Food for thought.

[ACRucrazy]

Just to throw a slight bit of fuel in the fire there are plenty of "enthusiasts" on this forum who have given more to the community then your or I ever will. Food for thought.

No shit. The attitude from some of the leaders here is totally unwelcoming.

[Troublemaker]

OK. Maybe trying to define via some real-world scenarios may help.

Scenario #1: Tony's Auto World

I am BrickHouse Viper. I am a paying sponsor here and often advertise my Vipers for sale. I happen to see a Viper(s) for sale in the VOA classifieds from Tony's Auto World. I report it to the mods. The mods look up Tony's Auto World and see that it's a commercial auto sales business. Further, title says "Enthusiast". It's a commercial auto sales business. I call the number in the Ad and confirm Brickhouse's suspicions. I remove the ad and alert Tony's Auto World.

I am BrickHouse Viper. I am a paying sponsor here and often advertise my Vipers for sale. I happen to see a Viper for sale in the VOA classifieds from member MyAssHurts. MyAssHurts is a member, doesn't appear to be in the Viper sales business. Ad states she's upgrading to a new Viper. I don't report anything. I'm OK.

Scenario #2: Michele's Parts Hoarding

I am Big Ass Automotive. I sell parts, a lot of them, from parted-out Vipers. I happen to stumble across the classifieds and see one or more ads from Michele, a VOA member. Michele seems to be parting out a Viper and has list one or more ads detailing the parts she's trying to sell. I'm not sure if Michele is really a business or just a member trying to make an extra buck. To be sure, I alert the mods. I, a mod, check out the ad. I don't see anything out of the ordinary. But, to be sure, I call Michele and ask her if she's running a business that sells Viper parts or just parting out a Viper for the fun of it. I let her know that we require businesses that wish to sell parts here to become a sponsor. She understand but states it doesn't apply to her since this is a one-time project. I let Big Ass automotive know my findings. Big Ass automotive is thankful for the followup.

Scenario #3: PrincessSnake's Curb Feelers

A Yellow Viper owner/member PrincessSnake (the fastest kind of Viper) decided to make one-off customs curb feelers for her Viper using wire from Home Despot and JB Weld in his home garage. Excited, she asks if any of her fellow Viper owners would like them too. Seeing as there's interest, she offers a few sets to be made for a nominal fee. ViperDustBin, a paying site sponsor, spots the feelers thread. Curious, Johanna from ViperDustBin looks into the thread. Seeing as Johanna does not sell Viper curb feelers and is not competing on curb feelers Johanna is relieved and actually offers to help sell the curb feelers on her site.

Scenario #4: Flatulent Air Ducts

Commercial business (FlatulentAir) and site sponsor selling an intake duct modification that allegedly adds 10rwhp to Vipers. Willy, a member, lists a classified ad for 10 sets of a newly-designed intake duct modifications he "found" in the VOA classifieds. Although she will take your money and never ship you the product because her shipping girl died (suddenly like right now).... Stephanie from FlatulentAir reports the ad to the moderators. A moderator, AsianDelight, looks into ad and questions the number of intake ducts for sale even though the member states "I'm not a business" and "not in Texas" in the ad. Not satisfied, Asian Delight calls the member. Willy swears that he's not pulling a fast one over on AsianDelight. Willy happened to "find" the ducts and wants to get rid of them. AsianDelight is satisfied with the explanation and moves on.

Later, someone alerts AsianDelight that Willy is really a business that makes knock-off parts overseas and uses various aliases on websites to get around fees for placing ads. Kindly, the person sends AsianDelight proof of this. AsianDelight verifies.

With blind rage and feeling as he was just teased by a group of young, horny Asian girls who stole his wallet during a lap-dance....AsianDelight drives to Willy's business. Nobody knows what happened next but Willy moved locations in Texas and was never found again. Coincidentally, Willy's never heard from again and his ads are gone.

So Michelle has a big ass? It always stems back to Politics.

[IndyRon]

It appears there are 2 groups of folks here...each with their own definition of "club".

[ViperTony]

It appears there are 2 groups of folks here...each with their own definition of "club".

I count four groups that have defined a "club" in this thread so far.

[ViperTony]

No shit. The attitude from some of the leaders here is totally unwelcoming.

Totally.

[Red Snake]

Sort of off topic, but since the issue of members vs enthusiasts has been brought up.


I was a member of the old club (and didnt like how it was managed btw). I have held off joining the new club for 2 reasons.


First, i just wanted see if things were really going to be any different with the new one. So far, honestly i am just not totally convinced yet. Not saying it isnt better, just that i am not yet fully convinced of it.

Secondly, i moved and i havent seen the new club (or the old one for that matter) get together and really do anything where i live now (Nashville) so why join?

[Janni]

Hi guys.

We put the classified ad situation / limitation on the agenda for the next board meeting. Usually try to have first week of each month. A "tad" tied up with Homecoming right now and looking forward to a great event, but we can try to resolve this business at our next meeting.

Fair enough?

And we DO try to prioritize the value and the treatment of "members". Members should definitely have some benefits not available to non-members. It doesn't' downplay the forum contribution of non-members, but were working hard here to provide real value: pay for a website, server, hosting, upgrades, insurance for member events (not just a nice to have but a requirement to rent tracks / venues), publish a magazine, put together national quality events, get some merchandise together, work with sponsors to provide discounts, etc. That stuff costs money - thus membership fees.

So -if we are prioritizing maximizing the value of folks who are "members", that's a stigma I can live with. Actually, I thought the initial gripe was that we were prioritizing sponsors over members - but now it's that we don't value the non-member forum contributor enough?

[ViperTony]

So -if we are prioritizing maximizing the value of folks who are "members", that's a stigma I can live with. Actually, I thought the initial gripe was that we were prioritizing sponsors over members - but now it's that we don't value the non-member forum contributor enough?

Yep. Because in discussing whether classified ads should be free or not I stated I'm not concerned, or give two deuces, about the feelings of non-members paying for classified ads which I think should be a member benefit (i.e. free for members, not free for everyone else). A couple of winners here spun that into the club doesn't value enthusiasts, the leadership is not welcoming, etc. Tears were wept, tissue sales went up and counseling sessions ensued. The mass suicides seemed to stop for now.



Actually, I thought the initial gripe was that we were prioritizing sponsors over members

I think it started out in this manner but evolved to include not just club members but anyone visiting this forum be it a club member, forum member, enthusiast, guest or Phil's gynecologist.

[VYPR BYT]

... A couple of winners here spun that into the club doesn't value enthusiasts, the leadership is not welcoming, etc. Tears were wept, tissue sales went up and counseling sessions ensued. The mass suicides seemed to stop for now.

pretty much sums it up

[Nine Ball]

Like I said, the Viper forums are the ONLY forums I have ever been on that have required its active members to PAY to sell items.

Not fair to compare this forum with other non-paid-membership forums. How many other car clubs do you pay to be a member of? Are those sites as busy as this one? Post links. Paid membership should have some benefits online, period. Free public forums operate on a different strategy, they want massive daily pageviews for their ads. Free classifieds does that. This site doesn't need that, they have paid members.

[Shooter]

Yep. Because in discussing whether classified ads should be free or not I stated I'm not concerned, or give two deuces, about the feelings of non-members paying for classified ads which I think should be a member benefit (i.e. free for members, not free for everyone else). A couple of winners here spun that into the club doesn't value enthusiasts, the leadership is not welcoming, etc. Tears were wept, tissue sales went up and counseling sessions ensued. The mass suicides seemed to stop for now.



I think it started out in this manner but evolved to include not just club members but anyone visiting this forum be it a club member, forum member, enthusiast, guest or Phil's gynecologist.

Lol. Your arrogent as fuck, but I actually agree with your last post.

[plumcrazy]

dont be bringing my gyno into this discussion LOL

[ViperTony]

Lol. Your arrogent as fuck, but I actually agree with your last post.

Arrogant? No. If I come across that way that's not my intention. Sarcastic? Absolutely.

[Troublemaker]

Arrogant? No. If I come across that way that's not my intention. Sarcastic? Absolutely.

Sarcasm is a proper form of communication only when delivered the proper way, which gets lost on the internet. Ask Plum's Gynecologist , she's a doctor.

[XSnake]

I'm maxed out on my listings. Should I cry and bitch here or should I create another thread?

[Troublemaker]

I'm maxed out on my listings. Should I cry and bitch here or should I create another thread?

New thread:t0152::t0152::t0152::t0152::t0152::t0152:

[plumcrazy]

lol.

[99RT10]

The rep system sucks. So many to REP, yet I still get "you must spread some Reputation around before giving it to plumcrazy again."


:(

[FLATOUT]

The rep system sucks. So many to REP, yet I still get "you must spread some Reputation around before giving it to plumcrazy again."


:(

Just like the other site lol. Plumdawg gets around.

[plumcrazy]

and we all know the value in rep...lol

[99RT10]

Just like the other site lol. Plumdawg gets around.

Just tried to rep you too, but.............."you must spread some Reputation around before giving it to FLATOUT again."

I think the Alley lets you re-rep after 5 or 6. Here it seems like 15.

[Janni]

You are limited to 3 reps as a member. Sponsors get unlimited reps.






too soon?

[XSnake]

You are limited to 3 reps as a member. Sponsors get unlimited reps.






too soon?

lmao

[99RT10]

You are limited to 3 reps as a member. Sponsors get unlimited reps.






too soon?

OK, that was funny right there............ :D :D

[Viper Girl]

dont be bringing my gyno into this discussion LOL
This guy?

http://images.grab-media.com/one_minute/2013/09/19/1ecade81156d31e057700cea4ac0b2a39b981cc0_preview.j pg

I agree... leave him out of it

[MtnBiker]

What the hell is that metal contraption? Holy crap, you wouldn't get me anywhere near that or that anywhere near me!

[Viper Girl]

What the hell is that metal contraption? Holy crap, you wouldn't get me anywhere near that or that anywhere near me!
Here if we put a hat and some eye balls on it do you feel safer?

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-CJca7ZCSEyY/AAAAAAAAAAI/AAAAAAAAABM/4sygseYPlwA/photo.jpg

[ViperTony]

Here if we put a hat and some eye balls on it do you feel safer?

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-CJca7ZCSEyY/AAAAAAAAAAI/AAAAAAAAABM/4sygseYPlwA/photo.jpg


Hey, whatever toys you like to play with on your personal time is your business. Thanks for sharing. Who am I to judge? LOL.

[Viper Girl]

Hey, whatever toys you like to play with on your personal time is your business. Thanks for sharing. Who am I to judge? LOL.
hahaha the answer to your rep quote is NO! LMAO... Although, I do stay away from Plum...

[VYPR BYT]

Here if we put a hat and some eye balls on it do you feel safer?

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-CJca7ZCSEyY/AAAAAAAAAAI/AAAAAAAAABM/4sygseYPlwA/photo.jpg

I LOL'd when I saw the hat-n-eyes... then I noticed that tongue and just got weird-ed out!
umm, I'm not judging. :smilielol:

[Janni]

I think we've all learned a little bit about one another on this thread... I'll let you determine if that is good or bad...

[Viper Girl]

yeah, who knew that Tony was Arrogant... LOL or that he knew Plums Gyno?


or that Mtnbiker got scared so easily by Phils gyno who is thousands of miles away from him..


I'm glad this thread is ending with some comedic flair...

[Troublemaker]

Hey, whatever toys you like to play with on your personal time is your business. Thanks for sharing. Who am I to judge? LOL.

I am more than fine judging, I just needs pictures to judge, call it a tutorial. We will leave it in the DIY forum.