Should links to non paying Sponsor parts/cars be allowed on the VOA?

[Viper Girl]

With recent discussion, I am curious what the VOA Members think about this issue?

Should links to Viper related parts and/or cars be allowed on the forums if they are not to a paying sponsors website?

Example: "I found a great price on this Viper part, located here www.randoviperpartforagoodpricedotcom (http://www.randoviperpartforagoodpricedotcom/) if anyone needs one" or "A great price to a XXXX Year Viper found here onwww.ebay/autotrader/craigslist/random (http://www.ebay/autotrader/craigslist/random) websitedotcom"

Just a simple yes or no works if you want. Note the results are not public, no one will see how you voted.


Sorry, I had to edit out the link...

There wasn't a part number listed, I would make sure what the actual part number is. I believe the new one is an AH

[IndyRon]

Sorry, I had to edit out the link...

There wasn't a part number listed, I would make sure what the actual part number is. I believe the new one is an AH

I don't need a window actuator currently and I understand protecting the sponsors, but you couldn't just make the link inactive so I don't have to PM the OP if I want the name of the company? His post is just a blank post now.

[99RT10]

Sorry, I had to edit out the link...

There wasn't a part number listed, I would make sure what the actual part number is. I believe the new one is an AH


Yeah, that is bullshit. That was a great price, now you are forcing the member to go spend double the amount with someone else. :(

[Troublemaker]

What was the problem, just a link to a non sponsor?

[Leslie]

dang!


wellll....I THINK the passenger window was fixed on my Viper, will look in paperwork that came with car.

[Timnineside]

And so it begins.

Oh well. If you're in the market for one a simple "search engine" that rhyme's with Oogle will work. Running around $260 plus shipping all day.

Here is the part number for such search engine: 04865610ah

I believe (don't quote me) the drivers side is a 11 instead of 10 so this: 04865611ah

Let's see how long this lasts.

[FrgMstr]

I lost the driver side window regulator on mine a few weeks ago. It was covered under warranty. The tech did tell me that the price had dropped greatly on the cost from Chrysler to about $600. The tech did break the first one installing it. He told me it was the first one that he had ever broken. Anyways, I thought reduced pricing might be relevant here.

[Viper Girl]

Nothing is beginning, we have a forum policy about non-sponsoring vendors links and sales... As many forums do... period...

Our vendors have been selling them at $295...

[Timnineside]

Nothing is beginning, we have a forum policy about non-sponsoring vendors links and sales... As many forums do... period...

Our vendors have been selling them at $295...

Sure thing. Got a link?

[Viper Girl]

I'm sure there is one on the forum along with the part numbers...

I remember that Mark from Woodhouse had them at that price. http://driveviper.com/forums/members/214-mjorgensen

[City]

And so it begins.

Oh well. If you're in the market for one a simple "search engine" that rhyme's with Oogle will work. Running around $260 plus shipping all day.

Here is the part number for such search engine: 04865610ah

I believe (don't quote me) the drivers side is a 11 instead of 10 so this: 04865611ah

Let's see how long this lasts.

There's SO no need for any sarcasm. Especially from someone that obviously places little value in our club membership.

Despite that, why not find the least expensive price on-line and then contact any one of our sponsors to see what they can do for you? Assuming you're a VOA member, I'd wager that you'll do better overall (between shipping costs and speed, customer service/any installation questions and especially product warranty). Our sponsors have a serious stake in providing excellent prices and service to VOA members and often will give VOA members a "non-published" discount when asked. They might even match an "Oogle" price. Ohh, and have fun returning a poorly functioning or prematurely dysfunctioning part to "Oogle". See how great you'll feel about your "$260 plus shipping all day" savings.

And about that "and so it begins"... A simple noun that rhymes with pool will work.

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

PartsRack has them IN STOCK for $269 + S/h/I



----------------NOTE: I just don't understand why the Viper-Universe's long-time paying sponsors, [who bring you this site by the way] are not your first choice automatically ? Even if a paying sponsor is a few $$ higher, why not support them anyway, just because they support owners all year long............for decades? Please, it cannot always be about the bottom-dollar, can it?

Those internet-bottom-feeder sites DONT stock the parts, they just LIST EVERYTHING! They cannot / wont interact /advise you .....but your sponsors here WILL.......... Why not "SUPPORT SPONSORS FIRST?"

For example, I have been 'warning' owners to alert the techs just how FRAGILE the earlier G3-4 regulators are/were! The new ones are more robust. Good advice matters?

TIM: Maybe I can help sell your car! Will that unknown internet vendor who saved you $10 do that?!? Or maybe our N-Ring/Laguna [ free ] decals will help a bit!?

Many of you DO have great sponsor-loyalty, THANKS! So this Monday Whine is addressed to those of you who don't....

JonB on behalf of all paid sponsors here

[Joel]

JonB

Bottom feeding...? Hand hurting? Relax, release, relate. That whine was a good year.

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

Joel, YOU are a good example of vendor/owner loyalty. Thanks.

...Fingers not hurting, in fact more numb today....too much weekend activity selling/delivering a Viper to another VOA prez!

[ACRucrazy]

Yeah, that is bullshit. That was a great price, now you are forcing the member to go spend double the amount with someone else. :(

I recall another Viper forum that would do the same thing... That place no longer gets my money..

[ACRucrazy]

Nothing is beginning, we have a forum policy about non-sponsoring vendors links and sales... As many forums do... period...

Our vendors have been selling them at $295...

Where is this policy posted?

[Chorps]

I don't see what the harm is in providing non site sponsored links, especially if the site sponsors are more than willing to be on par if not even a better deal. Sometimes you are searching for parts/services late at night or on the weekends, or the site sponsor doesn't have everything listed either.

Personally I think the *more* information that is posted here is better than trying to maintain a barrier... *removing* information that is posted is just another source of needless aggravation, imo.

[City]

I recall another Viper forum that would do the same thing... That place no longer gets my money..


Where is this policy posted?

All our policies are posted in the "New Owner Questions & Introductions" area. I don't believe there is a "rule" that specifically addresses this situation, but more importantly, I'm not understanding your disagreement. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to suggest that you're not understanding our (the VOA Website) concerns. We have site sponsors that pay for their right to advertise their products and services. Those payments constitute a material portion of the VOA's annual income stream for operations. In their position, wouldn't you take exception with a post that linked to a competing website for a Viper product? Such a "posting limitation" in no way prohibits anyone from searching out and purchasing a product from a non-vendor at a presumably less expensive price, nor does it prohibit anyone from using any search engine to seek alternative means of purchasing a product. Heck, a association member (or in this case an enthusiast) can be contacted via a PM to obtain a link of this nature, not that one couldn't find it themselves. How difficult is that? All we're asking, in full support of our sponsors, is that folks don't make it so obvious as to publish their findings.

This really isn't some freedom of speech issue.

Advance this even further down the line when a thread has links to a site selling a Viper product that doesn't "deliver" (either the goods altogether, damaged or faulty goods or used goods). Then WE'd be blamed for not investigating the linked website. Not that such an argument would be sensible, but there's no doubt some would find a way to find us at fault.

In any event, we're not trying to be dogmatic here. We're just trying to balance the intricacies of several players. I'm hoping if you take an objective view you can see both sides.

[ACRucrazy]

I have never been a fan of that. Was not a fan of it on SRTforums a decade ago, was not a fan of it on Viperclub and I will not support it here. Purposely removing links and information that does not come from a vendor that pays YOU money gets no support from me.

My view is the information and links should stay. The members should have every right to choose for themselves. Is saving a few bucks better for them than buying from a paying vendor? Is the hassle of dealing with shady no name places worth the risk? That is for every member to decide, not for you or the VOA to force members into.

You will not sway me on this. I have never agreed with it and never will. We are all adults here. I can choose where to spend my money without the BS reason that the link is to someone who doesn't give you money for annual advertising.

[City]

I have never been a fan of that. Was not a fan of it on SRTforums a decade ago, was not a fan of it on Viperclub and I will not support it here. Purposely removing links and information that does not come from a vendor that pays YOU money gets no support from me.

My view is the information and links should stay. The members should have every right to choose for themselves. Is saving a few bucks better for them than buying from a paying vendor? Is the hassle of dealing with shady no name places worth the risk? That is for every member to decide, not for you or the VCA to force members into.

You will not sway me on this. I have never agreed with it and never will. We are all adults here. I can choose where to spend my money without the BS reason that the link is to someone who doesn't give you money for annual advertising.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion and frankly, I've got no issue bringing it up to see if there's some room for compromise. I just don't see how our removing direct links can be construed as "forcing members" to or from any purchase.

Nonetheless, I'll recommend that it's revisited. No promises, but I'd like to think we're at least open to discussion.

[plumcrazy]

the private message function works very well here, if you see it cheaper, from a non VOA supporting member, its VERY SIMPLE, PM the info asap to them. but the VOA does need to support its vendors, they help to make this all possible...

[IndyRon]

the private message function works very well here, if you see it cheaper, from a non VOA supporting member, its VERY SIMPLE, PM the info asap to them. but the VOA does need to support its vendors, they help to make this all possible...

I have a problem with this as well. You micro-manage and try to control the flow of information and it ticks people off. Although the vendors do invest a fair amount of $$$ in the VOA, remember, this isn't about the vendors. Don't get me wrong, we need them and want them around but the VOA is about the MEMBERS. We ALSO pay to be a part of this and frankly I don't appreciate the tactic. If keeping the flow of information open without censorship requires less income in the form of VOA sponsor dollars, then so be it.

Like I mentioned earlier, I don't even need a window regulator, but to wipe a post's content from existence within minutes doesn't look good for a new and "improved" club and quite honestly smacks of the "old" club. I, like many others, will always buy from vendors first if they are close in price (and if they aren't being passive aggressive) and I think most other forum paying members feel the same.

[Drummerviper]

PartsRack has them IN STOCK for $269 + S/h/I



----------------NOTE: I just don't understand why the Viper-Universe's long-time paying sponsors, [who bring you this site by the way] are not your first choice automatically ? Even if a paying sponsor is a few $$ higher, why not support them anyway, just because they support owners all year long............for decades? Please, it cannot always be about the bottom-dollar, can it?

Those internet-bottom-feeder sites DONT stock the parts, they just LIST EVERYTHING! They cannot / wont interact /advise you .....but your sponsors here WILL.......... Why not "SUPPORT SPONSORS FIRST?"

For example, I have been 'warning' owners to alert the techs just how FRAGILE the earlier G3-4 regulators are/were! The new ones are more robust. Good advice matters?

TIM: Maybe I can help sell your car! Will that unknown internet vendor who saved you $10 do that?!? Or maybe our N-Ring/Laguna [ free ] decals will help a bit!?

Many of you DO have great sponsor-loyalty, THANKS! So this Monday Whine is addressed to those of you who don't....

JonB on behalf of all paid sponsors here

Well said.

[FrgMstr]

I have made a lot of purchases from the vendors that advertise here and are PART of the community. I rely on these vendors for their expertise and knowledge. If I utilize that, and many times I do, I make sure to spend my money with those companies even if the price might be a bit more than I can find elsewhere. That said, if I need an off-the-shelf Chrysler part and no guidance on the purchase that I can find cheaper elsewhere, I might choose to spend my money there.

Removing links to "outside" vendors on these non-specialized parts is not good for the community here. There seems to be no rule as to posting these links and removing those links is simply not a good thing overall for the Viper community. The fact is that the advertisers here DO NOT make the VOA forums possible. The VOA MEMBERS make all this possible. Without VOA MEMBERS there would be no need for the forums nor the advertisers.

I want the management to hear me out on this. I own and manage a forum (www.HardForum.com) that has 189,000 registered members with over 1,000,000 threads posted. At the moment of typing this we have over 5,000 people reading our forums. I have run these forums for over 15 years. Going in and deleting thread content of this type is destructive to the community and even the advertisers. Censoring individual statements and links about purchasing is BAD for VOA business. Is it possible for the advertisers to lose out on a few sales? Yes. Is it possible for customers to realize the value of supporting the Viper community vendors because of how they might get treated by other vendors? Yes.

The VOA is heading down the wrong road with deleting paying members posts that reference a company that is not an advertiser here. You will cause a lot of hatred and animosity that will not be easily undone. If you want to keep an eye on posters that seem to be spamming for free advertisements, then handle that as you see fit. Competition makes businesses stronger. The advertisers here can take that competition and make it pay off spades through pricing, knowledge, advisement, and customer service. The VOA is not doing its paying members justice by deleting links that point outside of VOA advertisers. I think the VOA upper echelon needs to get together and have a discussion about this. I have gone down this road with a similar bad policy, and I can assure you that it does nothing good for the VOA overall and simply angers your members to the point of leaving.

[CarolinaViper]

Not that my two cents are worth anything being a new member, but one reason I joined this club vs the VCA was the same reasons FrgMstr brought up concerning Vendors. Funny thing people say "History has a way of repeating itself" Didn't think it would be so soon with the new club. If its not in the rules...ask the members to amend the rules, set up a committee to address it or something instead of a single person arbitrary deleting the link.

[ACRucrazy]

Sorry, I had to edit out the link...

There wasn't a part number listed, I would make sure what the actual part number is. I believe the new one is an AH


Nothing is beginning, we have a forum policy about non-sponsoring vendors links and sales... As many forums do... period...

Our vendors have been selling them at $295...


There's SO no need for any sarcasm. Especially from someone that obviously places little value in our club membership.

Despite that, why not find the least expensive price on-line and then contact any one of our sponsors to see what they can do for you? Assuming you're a VOA member, I'd wager that you'll do better overall (between shipping costs and speed, customer service/any installation questions and especially product warranty). Our sponsors have a serious stake in providing excellent prices and service to VOA members and often will give VOA members a "non-published" discount when asked. They might even match an "Oogle" price. Ohh, and have fun returning a poorly functioning or prematurely dysfunctioning part to "Oogle". See how great you'll feel about your "$260 plus shipping all day" savings.

And about that "and so it begins"... A simple noun that rhymes with pool will work.


All our policies are posted in the "New Owner Questions & Introductions" area. I don't believe there is a "rule" that specifically addresses this situation, but more importantly, I'm not understanding your disagreement. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to suggest that you're not understanding our (the VOA Website) concerns. We have site sponsors that pay for their right to advertise their products and services. Those payments constitute a material portion of the VOA's annual income stream for operations. In their position, wouldn't you take exception with a post that linked to a competing website for a Viper product? Such a "posting limitation" in no way prohibits anyone from searching out and purchasing a product from a non-vendor at a presumably less expensive price, nor does it prohibit anyone from using any search engine to seek alternative means of purchasing a product. Heck, a association member (or in this case an enthusiast) can be contacted via a PM to obtain a link of this nature, not that one couldn't find it themselves. How difficult is that? All we're asking, in full support of our sponsors, is that folks don't make it so obvious as to publish their findings.

This really isn't some freedom of speech issue.

Advance this even further down the line when a thread has links to a site selling a Viper product that doesn't "deliver" (either the goods altogether, damaged or faulty goods or used goods). Then WE'd be blamed for not investigating the linked website. Not that such an argument would be sensible, but there's no doubt some would find a way to find us at fault.

In any event, we're not trying to be dogmatic here. We're just trying to balance the intricacies of several players. I'm hoping if you take an objective view you can see both sides.


the private message function works very well here, if you see it cheaper, from a non VOA supporting member, its VERY SIMPLE, PM the info asap to them. but the VOA does need to support its vendors, they help to make this all possible...

Seems to me Viper Girl, City and plumcrazy and any other forum leader really need to rethink what tactics and "rules" they are trying to enforce here. All of this reeks of forum past and it tastes dirty. Ick. Fresh blood never hurt.. maybe its time..

Slippery slope and I am done!

[99RT10]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion and frankly, I've got no issue bringing it up to see if there's some room for compromise. I just don't see how our removing direct links can be construed as "forcing members" to or from any purchase.

Nonetheless, I'll recommend that it's revisited. No promises, but I'd like to think we're at least open to discussion.

City,
You are taking away choice. When doing that and the information that could help other members, you are forcing members elsewhere. If that price is a great price, I absolutely think it should stay up and allow the sponsors to come in behind and offer to beat that price. Free market is a great thing, don't kill it like the mOrgue did. If this place turns even slightly that way, I am outta here.

[99RT10]

I have made a lot of purchases from the vendors that advertise here and are PART of the community. I rely on these vendors for their expertise and knowledge. If I utilize that, and many times I do, I make sure to spend my money with those companies even if the price might be a bit more than I can find elsewhere. That said, if I need an off-the-shelf Chrysler part and no guidance on the purchase that I can find cheaper elsewhere, I might choose to spend my money there.

Removing links to "outside" vendors on these non-specialized parts is not good for the community here. There seems to be no rule as to posting these links and removing those links is simply not a good thing overall for the Viper community. The fact is that the advertisers here DO NOT make the VOA forums possible. The VOA MEMBERS make all this possible. Without VOA MEMBERS there would be no need for the forums nor the advertisers.

I want the management to hear me out on this. I own and manage a forum (www.HardForum.com) that has 189,000 registered members with over 1,000,000 threads posted. At the moment of typing this we have over 5,000 people reading our forums. I have run these forums for over 15 years. Going in and deleting thread content of this type is destructive to the community and even the advertisers. Censoring individual statements and links about purchasing is BAD for VOA business. Is it possible for the advertisers to lose out on a few sales? Yes. Is it possible for customers to realize the value of supporting the Viper community vendors because of how they might get treated by other vendors? Yes.

The VOA is heading down the wrong road with deleting paying members posts that reference a company that is not an advertiser here. You will cause a lot of hatred and animosity that will not be easily undone. If you want to keep an eye on posters that seem to be spamming for free advertisements, then handle that as you see fit. Competition makes businesses stronger. The advertisers here can take that competition and make it pay off spades through pricing, knowledge, advisement, and customer service. The VOA is not doing its paying members justice by deleting links that point outside of VOA advertisers. I think the VOA upper echelon needs to get together and have a discussion about this. I have gone down this road with a similar bad policy, and I can assure you that it does nothing good for the VOA overall and simply angers your members to the point of leaving.

Best damn post of the thread!!!!! The forum is here because of the Members! Not the sponsors! Everybody got that? :mad:

[Leslie]

I also didn't realize we were limited on posting links. That surprises me.
I choose Partsrack because of the great service, but I DO think it's the member's choice where they go for parts....and the freedom of speech.

[whitebeard]

Going after a mod on a personal level for something isn't what being a member is bout. That give me the worst sort of feeling.

We have to balance everything here and try to. It's not easy and not liked by some. But we are not here to be liked by anyone. We are tying to be fair and follow some degree of decorum. So lets go the other direction. Lets put this to a person who runs a company out of his garage selling parts to the community. He is not a paid sponsor or a vendor here. But he can post his wares with impunity to the membership because he is considered a "paid member in good standing". Lets say the same person has had poor customer service and is known for not performing to his customer's expectation. But he has no track record here. Or some don't know him since they just bought a second or third hand car and looking to mod it.

Is this the way you want the board run? I wouldn't. I want to know who I am dealing with. And I can PM someone if there is something i need to know more about. Lastly what if the product installed doesn't fit the model of car the person has? Can you use a part from the 94 RT-10 on a 2004 SRT? Even so far as a door actuator? I don't know off top of my head. But I bet I can find out fairly fast by calling one or two numbers. Or ask in a PM.

But bashing VG, City Plum or any mod isn't the best method of getting you point across. What is does is make folks less likely to consider your point of view.

If you want to add me to the list of un-favorites, then do so. I'm lucky. My world is in computers; Reboot, reformat, and install the software as needed.

[commandomatt]

The sponsors do not own this site. The power it has is created by a large membership.

I doubt that this forum would seize to exist if we didn't have any sponsors

I to prefer to have choices and part of what's great about a large membership is all the information that will surface. Good and bad of course but that is the nature of a public forum.

The quick removal of a post like what happened in this thread is certainly very uncomfortable. To suggest that the forum has to validate all the sellers and products that surface on the forum is a bit ridiculous. We are all adults and if I choose to buy something from a non sponsor, and this part turns out to not work, the last thing I would do is contact VOA to complain. I choose to buy it....my problem

If anything, the moderator could put a comment in said post saying that 'this product is not offered by a VOA sponsor'. That's as far as I would take this control. Anything more is telling me what I should buy and from whom and that is frankly none of VOA's business.

[FrgMstr]

While personal attacks should not be allowed (even though your signature somewhat promotes it), let's not lose focus of the real issue here with this distraction.

Moderators do NOT make policy, but rather enforce policies put down by the VOA. From my perspective the moderator overstepped their bounds with this action. Moderators on my forums do not have the ability to edit posts. I have found that mods can get a bit overzealous with that ability.

The policy on non-vendor links needs to be reviewed and specifically addressed and spelled out by VOA officers. If this thread has not already been brought to the attention of club officers, it needs to be. Possibly a public discussion on this topic is needed in a members only area of the forum?




Going after a mod on a personal level for something isn't what being a member is bout. That give me the worst sort of feeling.

We have to balance everything here and try to. It's not easy and not liked by some. But we are not here to be liked by anyone. We are tying to be fair and follow some degree of decorum. So lets go the other direction. Lets put this to a person who runs a company out of his garage selling parts to the community. He is not a paid sponsor or a vendor here. But he can post his wares with impunity to the membership because he is considered a "paid member in good standing". Lets say the same person has had poor customer service and is known for not performing to his customer's expectation. But he has no track record here. Or some don't know him since they just bought a second or third hand car and looking to mod it.

Is this the way you want the board run? I wouldn't. I want to know who I am dealing with. And I can PM someone if there is something i need to know more about. Lastly what if the product installed doesn't fit the model of car the person has? Can you use a part from the 94 RT-10 on a 2004 SRT? Even so far as a door actuator? I don't know off top of my head. But I bet I can find out fairly fast by calling one or two numbers. Or ask in a PM.

But bashing VG, City Plum or any mod isn't the best method of getting you point across. What is does is make folks less likely to consider your point of view.

If you want to add me to the list of un-favorites, then do so. I'm lucky. My world is in computers; Reboot, reformat, and install the software as needed.

[99RT10]

Going after a mod on a personal level for something isn't what being a member is bout. That give me the worst sort of feeling.
.

There should never be any personal bashing of any moderator. I have met two mods in person and consider them friends. I have great respect for WB and VG. The mods should be given the discretion, but when something like this comes up, it needs to be clarified and they should not take that call out as a personal attack. There should be a open, serious discussion if there was some over stepping. With what happened at the mOrgue, there is a hyper-sensitivity about dis-appearing threads/information. If I think something wrong was done, I will have no problem sending a rep comment or PM.

Again, there should never be any personal attacks on the people who dedicate their time for this site and this club.

[Steve M]

Am I missing something here? I didn't see anything I would consider to be a personal attack on a moderator...I did see someone questioning a policy and pointing out a similarity to another Viper forum, but that was about it.

I think there are good points on both sides here - there is always going to be a weird dynamic when it comes this this kinda stuff. You have a boatload of paid members, and a handful of paid vendors...whose money gets valued the most?

IMO, leave the links, and let the sponsors chime in as they see fit. If I see someone like Jon B has the right part for a similar price, I'll go with him every day of the week and twice on Sunday because I know he'll back it up with tech support should anything go wrong. He (and other vendors) have a great reputation, and I think pretty much everyone on this board knows that. Censoring links makes more sense on a site that is only supported by vendors, but this is a different animal, and should be treated accordingly.

[ACRucrazy]

Going after a mod on a personal level for something isn't what being a member is bout. That give me the worst sort of feeling.

We have to balance everything here and try to. It's not easy and not liked by some. But we are not here to be liked by anyone. We are tying to be fair and follow some degree of decorum. So lets go the other direction. Lets put this to a person who runs a company out of his garage selling parts to the community. He is not a paid sponsor or a vendor here. But he can post his wares with impunity to the membership because he is considered a "paid member in good standing". Lets say the same person has had poor customer service and is known for not performing to his customer's expectation. But he has no track record here. Or some don't know him since they just bought a second or third hand car and looking to mod it.

Is this the way you want the board run? I wouldn't. I want to know who I am dealing with. And I can PM someone if there is something i need to know more about. Lastly what if the product installed doesn't fit the model of car the person has? Can you use a part from the 94 RT-10 on a 2004 SRT? Even so far as a door actuator? I don't know off top of my head. But I bet I can find out fairly fast by calling one or two numbers. Or ask in a PM.

But bashing VG, City Plum or any mod isn't the best method of getting you point across. What is does is make folks less likely to consider your point of view.

If you want to add me to the list of un-favorites, then do so. I'm lucky. My world is in computers; Reboot, reformat, and install the software as needed.

Where is the bashing coming from? If anything the mods were ganging up on the OP for saying "And so it begins"

How do I want the board run? I want links to be shared. I want no restrictions on what information can be posted based on annual "sponsor" dues.

I get it.. it's a lot of money... what 35 or so "sponsors" paying $400 to $2500 per year to advertise on the forums... and another $525 to $4000 if they want to advertise in 4 issues of Viper quarterly. It's not about protecting the sponsors. It never has been on any site I've been on. It's about protecting the money coming in from those sponsors.

Money money money!

[Janni]

Ultimately - this should be about "community".

Our sponsors are part of the community. They are here day in and day out supporting Viper owners. And they do need to compete- both with each other, and with non-sponsoring vendors.

However, tacit promotion of non-supporting sponsors, by non-VOA members, isn't fair to the folks who dedicate so much time and effort to the community.

Google away - it's always your prerogative to go to the lowest cost source or use that as negotiation as City mentioned. Sponsors here are part of the community. We all feel comfortable they will service and support the membership.

I am sorry that there is disagreement in the policy - but if we're going to err, it should be on the side of being fair to the folks that contribute - either through membership or sponsorship - to the increasing value of the community.

As for the immediate jump to "you are just like that other club / site / group" - it's tiring. Threatening to leave because "we're just like that other site" is tiring too. There WILL be similarities - for pete's sake - we're a Viper site... but we've differentiated ourselves from "that other site" in the areas that matter - honesty, integrity and transparency.

[FrgMstr]

However, tacit promotion of non-supporting sponsors, by non-VOA members, isn't fair to the folks who dedicate so much time and effort to the community.

I am sorry that there is disagreement in the policy - but if we're going to err, it should be on the side of being fair to the folks that contribute - either through membership or sponsorship - to the increasing value of the community.

"Tacit promotion" - You are confusing this with open conversation and communication that is good for the VOA COMMUNITY.

What exactly does the "policy" state? Let's state that right here and now so we are all on the same page and know what is being enforced. How will that policy exactly be enforced?

The fact is that if VOA moderators "err," as you have pointed out happens, the VOA should fix this so it does not happen going forward. Continuing to make mistakes is very little console to those of us that feel as though those with the most money get to make the rules in this club.

Do not confuse censorship of paying community members with "increasing the value of the community." I would highly suggest that the community make up its own mind on this if leadership fails to be progressive on this issue. If you think a ebay and third party seller links are going to be the death knell of the advertising vendors here, you are mistaken. This only gives paying advertisers the opportunity to come in and demonstrate their worth to the community. Again, this is not just something I dreamt up, I have experienced exactly this in my current forum business in the last 15 years.

[Joel]

You know this whole discussion is starting to remind me of all the crap we went through last year. If all you folks who want to "save a dollar" are so bent on doing that just don't rejoin any club. Maybe Walmart will start selling Viper parts - made in China at the cheapest possible price. Is that what we want? I think if you want to circumvent the "don't do harm to sponsors" idea, just PM someone about a better deal. Lots of us sell parts to each other and I'm sure that costs some vendors business but that's a whole different message than saying you can get a better deal at "fill in the blank" parts place with the covert message that sponsors charge too much. Some of you may remember a vendor on the other site who rarely filled orders in a timely manner or provided good service. Folks were after the moderators to prevent him from selling his products or identifying him as a risky vendor - nothing was done. To my knowledge that person still takes advantage of unsuspecting owners - or at least his sweet time delivering parts after he has taken money first.

As a community of Viper owners we need to promote the good in our community and inform about the bad. Nothing on this site keeps any of us from doing that and private messages allow us to communicate anything we want about what we do with our money or to give advice. Just use a little common sense and stop looking for a conspiracy under every rock.

[ACRucrazy]

This has NOTHING to do with saving a dollar. It has everything to do with censorship and how it's being done. Some leaders just not getting it. I can't believe why this is so hard to understand. FrgMstr has spelled it out perfectly.

The members are telling you how they want the forum to be run. The PAYING members. Who were here first. Before sponsors. Who give money TO the sponsors. Without the members there would be no sponsors. Members come first, before anything else, even moderators and presidents.

[FrgMstr]

Another issue that is worthy of discussion, and should absolutely be part of this conversation, is Viper parts vendors masquerading as members. I have dealt with this exact issue as well with my business. When you cross the line from selling "extra" parts to becoming a part time or hobbyist seller, these members need to be held to a different rule set than a "normal" VOA member. On my forums, we address these part time or hobbyist sellers as forum members that are businesses. These part time vendors must be held to the same standard as a full time company as these members of our community are probably the biggest threat to legitimate Viper-centric vendors and advertisers. If the VOA wants to protect its advertisers, and it absolutely should, the VOA should not be worried about an ebay link here or there, it should be cracking down members running businesses out of their garage that directly impact paying advertisers. I know a few of you that these thoughts will not be popular with, but it is absolutely part of this issue.

[Chorps]

I'm sorry that the OP's thread is getting derailed but I think the concept of a community is so relevant discussion can take place.

I understand the motivation of the mods and vendors to want to funnel business towards the site supporters, but like the editing of the posts to remove information is a bad thing, pure and simple. Protectionist policies don't work, especially when they get divide the community.

If the VOA wants to be the 'go to' place for all things Viper, they need to be the compendium of knowledge that is built by the community, and that is inclusive of outside vendors. That way the community and site supporters can discuss the merits of the product/discussion/thread in an open and civil fashion.

The fact that *paying* community members are discussing this is a demonstration that they *aren't* cheapskates. Information needs to be disseminated in order to be valuable, and this site is built upon information (along with the bonds of friendship/ownership). There are a number of individuals who have left the other place because they wanted to have information become more open and the scars of that are still sensitive for *everyone*, but asking people to censor themselves or 'just don't rejoin any club' isn't really a community building solution.

I believe that transparency, openness and inclusiveness are the fundamentals of a great community. I hope the VOA embraces those concepts.

Although I'm always leery of mods editing posts, there should be a way of promoting a site sponsor who has a competitive product within a discussion. Perhaps a way of putting a link to a site sponsor/banner/autoad post as a followup after the original post? Kind of a hassle, but to me mod editing a post is really an extreme solution.

[AZTVR]

I'd like to add an analogy for the leadership. The folks that use this forum feel like they have entered a club house with multiple bar rooms where they talk to friends and people who like Vipers.

If that is what this really was, a real life in-person interaction, would it be reasonable to have a person standing by and say " You can't tell those people where to buy that part, because our sponsors put their advertising signs on the walls here. But, you can feel free to text the information to someone standing next to you, if they ask. Just don't speak it out loud so that it can be heard by everyone near you."

That is what folks here feel like is being done. I understand that the policy being discussed is being defended as reasonable, essentially by likening it to posting a handwritten ad up on the wall next to the vendor's sign. I totally agree that would be unfair; but, in a forum like this, that analogy is not what everyday people feel like what is being done here.

Personally, I do not care about this specific issue. I am a master googler and the existence or deletion of a link means nothing to me. But, for that reason, it is a waste of time also to delete it, and mainly serves to alienate members.

[Janni]

Just to be clear - a paying community member's post was NOT edited.

Additionally - yes- sponsors pay for advertising. If advertising and posting of links to competitive websites is free- where is the value to advertise / sponsor? If a forum user who likes Joe's Parts wants to go to the printers and insert a flyer into each Viper Quarterly with their pricing and specials - is that okay? As long as it doesn't increase the postage - anyone should have the same access to the membership as anyone else, right?

It's about providing value for the money they have paid. It's not 'all about the money' - as we could have more sponsors if we wanted and we don't take just anyone.

I think it's fair to continue to look at the policies and make adjustments where necessary - a things do "evolve" - esp online.

[ViperTony]

How about moving the posts that hijacked this thread into the Suggestion forum so this thread can get back on topic?

[FrgMstr]

Just to be clear - a paying community member's post was NOT edited.

That does not matter. A community member is a community member paying or not. Now if that member has been identified as abusing his posting privileges, it needs to be dealt with assuredly. Treating paid VOA members and posting Viper enthusiasts the same will benefit the VOA and Viper communities overall.


Additionally - yes- sponsors pay for advertising. If advertising and posting of links to competitive websites is free- where is the value to advertise / sponsor? If a forum user who likes Joe's Parts wants to go to the printers and insert a flyer into each Viper Quarterly with their pricing and specials - is that okay? As long as it doesn't increase the postage - anyone should have the same access to the membership as anyone else, right?

First your analogy is terribly flawed. This is NOT a VOA produced magazine, it is OUR community where WE the users produce the content.

Second, the VOA advertising vendor has the ability to become part of the community and act on posting of other prices and parts if he sees fit. And I would suggest that the advertising vendor has much more open ability to leverage this relationship. That is where the value is. If the advertising vendor is just putting up a banner and not interacting with the community as a marketing tool, then the vendor is losing out in that relationship. Being able to announce new products and take part of mod inquiries is a tool that needs to be utilized by the advertiser. Do you allow a non-advertising vendor to come in and do the same? No. But VOA seemingly does as there are part time/hobbyist sellers here that use the VOA forums as a selling tool. Which is worse in that situation? Someone posting an ebay link to a part number, or a VOA member selling new parts out of their garage? I would suggest latter there is much more of a threat to your paying advertisers.

Third, this is business in the internet age. Plopping a banner up and then never becoming involved is not worth what the vendor is paying if they do not use the forums as a selling and educational tool about their products. I made huge sums of money in the late 90s this way and I knew then that it was a business model that would not survive when it comes to very specialized product categories.


It's about providing value for the money they have paid. It's not 'all about the money' - as we could have more sponsors if we wanted and we don't take just anyone.

The true value in this for paying advertisers is a open and honest community that the vendor can openly interact with. When it is not an open community and honest community, then that undermines the value of any words posted by anybody or vendor. The value is NOT in censoring links by members having an open discussion. When this linking happens, it is an open opportunity for an advertising vendor to interact and prove his worth to the community. If the advertising vendor expects the VOA to delete links to non-advertising vendors, that is simply wrong.


I think it's fair to continue to look at the policies and make adjustments where necessary - a things do "evolve" - esp online.

I am not getting a feeling that this is being looked at quite frankly. I think some current policies/rules and ways here are detrimental to the overall Viper community and to VOA specifically. VOA needs to back up and look at the big picture, and not just a post at a time. Balancing the Viper enthusiast, VOA member, and advertising vendor relationship is not difficult, but it cannot be managed with knee jerk reaction policies. To make the forums better is something that not all will like on the front side, but it will be beneficial to all involved on the back side. But surely "traditional" ways of doing business to not extend to this format. To think it does is quite simply a mistake.


I have made my living by solely selling internet advertising since 2000. I run one of the largest forums in the world and the third largest computer hardware website in the world. Our forums rank 35th in the world measured by registered users. I have been through these growing pains. And while the subject matter that I deal with is vastly different, our entire business relies on the "enthusiast," exactly the same as it does here and my suggestions are fully applicable to VOA.

[Whitemamba]

I don't see what the harm is in providing non site sponsored links, especially if the site sponsors are more than willing to be on par if not even a better deal. Sometimes you are searching for parts/services late at night or on the weekends, or the site sponsor doesn't have everything listed either.

Personally I think the *more* information that is posted here is better than trying to maintain a barrier... *removing* information that is posted is just another source of needless aggravation, imo.

Well if you were a paying sponsor you might feel differently. The sponsors are paying their monthly sponsorship fees to advertise their products. Now just imagine if you were a sponsor and someone was advertising competitors offers, and these competitors were not paying the right to advertise. Would you feel that you needed to be a paying sponsor at that point? Let's just say that you were a car dealer and a paying sponsor and someone kept posting prices of a dealer that was selling cheaper. Would you feel that it was ok to post the other dealers information?

And all the OP needed to do was post the price and then ask others to PM him for the vendor in private. Case solved.

I for one understand fully why the sponsors would feel slighted. They pay for the right to advertise.

[TrackAire]

I can see both sides of this issue and the delicate situation of each at this point and time. As the website grows it will pull even more people from the other sites. Knowledge is the key to growth for all involved, forum members and vendors.

Here is some food for thought. If I was a Viper vendor and a sponsor of this website, the last thing I would want to see posted is some one saying "Just found a great deal on a Viper Widget, please PM me for details if interested".

I would want to know the links and would be cool with them posted on the forum. Without knowing who your competition is or how to counteract them, you're not going to grow your business. When potential customers start using PM's and private emails, you've lost your marketing edge and what you're paying for to be able to instantly chime in with product availability, advice, etc on the same thread.

If the link is posted on the thread, I, as a paying vendor could then chime in and say "We have that Viper Widget available for immediate shipping....we also have some install suggestions to make sure it goes smoothly since the part is rather fragile. Please feel free to contact us". Knowledge is power, knowledge is increased sales. Even if people are posting non forum sponsor links, the ability to know what they are buying and attempting to buy from is just as important as them calling you first....sometimes more so.

Cheers,
George

[Whitemamba]

I'd like to add an analogy for the leadership. The folks that use this forum feel like they have entered a club house with multiple bar rooms where they talk to friends and people who like Vipers.

If that is what this really was, a real life in-person interaction, would it be reasonable to have a person standing by and say " You can't tell those people where to buy that part, because our sponsors put their advertising signs on the walls here. But, you can feel free to text the information to someone standing next to you, if they ask. Just don't speak it out loud so that it can be heard by everyone near you."

That is what folks here feel like is being done. I understand that the policy being discussed is being defended as reasonable, essentially by likening it to posting a handwritten ad up on the wall next to the vendor's sign. I totally agree that would be unfair; but, in a forum like this, that analogy is not what everyday people feel like what is being done here.

Personally, I do not care about this specific issue. I am a master googler and the existence or deletion of a link means nothing to me. But, for that reason, it is a waste of time also to delete it, and mainly serves to alienate members.

I disagree completely. All you have to do is put yourself in one of the vendors shoes. Why even be a paying vendor if your competition gets the service for free?

I for one don't think that people should get the service if they don't pay for it. If it wasn't for the paying sponsors, we wouldn't have a website. If it wasn't for the paying members, we wouldn't have a website. Get where I am coming from?

If you were selling a product and paid to advertise that product, would you pay if people kept posting links to someone who might be selling that product cheaper? Of course you would not and to say you would would be lying. We all want something cheaper but then we expect loyalty and people to bend over backwards to help us. So if said vendor provides you with tons of advice, are you going to then turn around and buy the part from someone else who sells the part for a few dollars less? It appears that many will do that thus treating the vendor as though his time spent helping is worthless.

People need to put themselves in the sponsoring vendor's shoes and think about how they would feel. It is easy to talk crap and say how they would do this and that and how that information posted provides competition, well yes it does. It also will cause you to lose sponsors. The easiest way to put it is to put yourself as a car dealer selling cars. You pay a monthly sponsorship fee. Now let's suppose someone comes along and posts ads about a dealer selling the same car for thousands less below invoice just to move the car and clear out their inventory. How would you feel if you were that paying sponsor who was paying to advertise monthly? You would feel that your money was wasted because someone just came in and cut the legs out from under you.

All someone has to do is discuss that they found a particular vehicle for such and such price cheaper and to PM them for the information.

PS: Do you think Coke pays it's millions to advertise in a movie only to see Pepsi shown throughout the movie? The same goes for Gm paying to be in the Transformer movies only to have Dodge vehicles shown throughout?

[Whitemamba]

I can see both sides of this issue and the delicate situation of each at this point and time. As the website grows it will pull even more people from the other sites. Knowledge is the key to growth for all involved, forum members and vendors.

Here is some food for thought. If I was a Viper vendor and a sponsor of this website, the last thing I would want to see posted is some one saying "Just found a great deal on a Viper Widget, please PM me for details if interested".

I would want to know the links and would be cool with them posted on the forum. Without knowing who your competition is or how to counteract them, you're not going to grow your business. When potential customers start using PM's and private emails, you've lost your marketing edge and what you're paying for to be able to instantly chime in with product availability, advice, etc on the same thread.

If the link is posted on the thread, I, as a paying vendor could then chime in and say "We have that Viper Widget available for immediate shipping....we also have some install suggestions to make sure it goes smoothly since the part is rather fragile. Please feel free to contact us". Knowledge is power, knowledge is increased sales. Even if people are posting non forum sponsor links, the ability to know what they are buying and attempting to buy from is just as important as them calling you first....sometimes more so.

Cheers,
George
If I was a paying sponsor I would rather see that than having that non-paying sponsors links and goods advertised constantly. Let's just use another example here of a person who sells brake pads or wheels. The person who pays to advertise is cutting into his profit margin for every place he advertises. Do you think it is fair to that person to have someone go around posting links of a competitors wheels or brake pads just because they are cheaper? If you owned a restaurant and you paid to have billboards with your restaurants information on said billboard, would you think it was fair to have someone come along and place a big sticker on the billboard you paid to advertise on?

Let's just make another hypothetical comparison, let's suppose you were Borla and you were selling a catback exhaust for $1000 and were a paying vendor. Do you think it would be right for Corsa to come in and start posting ads even though they were not a sponsor? And then you might have a third vendor who was a retailer for both of the products come in and undersell both because he was just looking to get exposure for his company and was willing to take a small loss on said exhaust. Would that be fair to the paying vendor?

[Whitemamba]

You know this whole discussion is starting to remind me of all the crap we went through last year. If all you folks who want to "save a dollar" are so bent on doing that just don't rejoin any club. Maybe Walmart will start selling Viper parts - made in China at the cheapest possible price. Is that what we want? I think if you want to circumvent the "don't do harm to sponsors" idea, just PM someone about a better deal. Lots of us sell parts to each other and I'm sure that costs some vendors business but that's a whole different message than saying you can get a better deal at "fill in the blank" parts place with the covert message that sponsors charge too much. Some of you may remember a vendor on the other site who rarely filled orders in a timely manner or provided good service. Folks were after the moderators to prevent him from selling his products or identifying him as a risky vendor - nothing was done. To my knowledge that person still takes advantage of unsuspecting owners - or at least his sweet time delivering parts after he has taken money first.

As a community of Viper owners we need to promote the good in our community and inform about the bad. Nothing on this site keeps any of us from doing that and private messages allow us to communicate anything we want about what we do with our money or to give advice. Just use a little common sense and stop looking for a conspiracy under every rock.

Exactly Joel!

[Whitemamba]

Where is the bashing coming from? If anything the mods were ganging up on the OP for saying "And so it begins"

How do I want the board run? I want links to be shared. I want no restrictions on what information can be posted based on annual "sponsor" dues.

I get it.. it's a lot of money... what 35 or so "sponsors" paying $400 to $2500 per year to advertise on the forums... and another $525 to $4000 if they want to advertise in 4 issues of Viper quarterly. It's not about protecting the sponsors. It never has been on any site I've been on. It's about protecting the money coming in from those sponsors.

Money money money!

Let me just put this question out there to you. Are you a paying sponsor? If not, then you probably would feel different if you were. Would you like to see your money wasted because you paid the right to advertise and someone else was getting it for free and thus could offset their price accordingly.

[ACRucrazy]

I disagree completely. All you have to do is put yourself in one of the vendors shoes. Why even be a paying vendor if your competition gets the service for free?


How does someone posting a link to something that is sold by a non paying vendor/sponsor the same thing?

If I post a link to an eBay auction or something on craigslist or some random site to a car or car part, is that the same thing paying sponsors are getting? No!

http://driveviper.com/advertise/

Paying to be a sponsor gets you:


The Viper Owners Association wants to establish a thriving vendor connection as a resource to its club members. There are terrific opportunities for businesses to connect directly to Viper owners and enthusiasts to help spread the word on their products and services. That connection can be made through the following two methods:
Website - Rotating, static, and/or animated banners on the national website
Viper Quarterly - Multiple ad options for placement in our Viper magazine

And:


In addition to ANY of the above choices you choose, you will also receive these value adds:
Your forum avatar will have the title of "site sponsor"
You will be allowed a custom signature on your posts
You will receive a dedicated forum in the "Vendor Showcase" for your company
Your full size banner will be added to a sponsor page (with link to your website)
You can request customized statistics for web usage/hits on your banner(s)

A link to something sold elsewhere does not get you those things. They are not getting anything for free. They are most likely not even aware it was shared on the forums. It is word of mouth spread by the members. If a sponsor wants to chime and and say they can offer the competitive price on whatever it is, by all means they have the right to do so, however they are paying to sponsor their business, not block information sharing.

If a sponsor wants to pay to be in Viper Quarterly that is their choice. They get:


Advertise in Viper Quarterly

Current Ad pricing for Viper Quarterly is below:
15% discount on Standard Rates for ads placed for 1 year (4 issues)
10% additional discount for ads placed before 31 January 2014
Early Bird special, commit to 1 year before Jan 31, 2014 and get a 25% discount!
Position Standard Rate/issue Early Bird Special/issue
Inside Front Cover $3000 $2250
Inside Back Cover $3000 $2250
Back Cover* $4000
Spread (2 pages) $4000 $3000
Full Page $2500 $1875
½ Page $1300 $975
¼ Page $700 $525
*only available on a quarterly basis, limited to availability

I am so sick of this behind closed doors crap on the Viper forums. It's the only automotive forum I have ever seen it on. For moderators and leaders to tell members to keep it to PM is absolutely insane. Where people need to discuss info through PM like its a cloak and dagger society. Where parts are advertised by vendors by prices are not posted. It's like you need to be in the good old boys club to get a certain price or info and if your're not you are wondering if you are paying more than the next guy. It absolutely boggles my mind. But then why should it, when there is this kind of money floating around between members, groups, and the "club" is it really any surprise?

I am a paying member who has shelled out a lot of money in the less than a year to be a mamba member, get a number, and two tickets to NVE. My voice is every bit as valid as the moderators and presidents. My voice is every bit as valid as a non paying member who participates on the forums. Just because I pay to have a magazine show up and get a number and other benefits does not mean my opinions and posts hold more water than an active member who chooses not to pay for those perks. Without active members there is no VOA.

I will only continue to pay dues when I see value in it. If my posts and others are going to be limited because some paying sponsors might be worried about a random post here and there to something for sale cheaper than what they might offer I am done. I thought we moved on from this crap. It was one of the biggest complaints by many from VCA. I will not be censored like that. If I find something cool or a good deal I will share it with hopes of a fellow member getting a deal. If a vendor can't handle that and has to complain about it that is their problem. If the VOA want's to try and bully members and edit posts to try and protect cash flow of sponsors it will be the VOAs death knell. The VOA better look in the mirror long and hard on this.

[Steve M]

Random question from the peanut gallery: where does the vendor money go? I understand why other forums have vendors that pay to advertise - it is their only source of revenue to keep the site up and running (servers, etc.). Here we have paying members AND paying vendors, and I don't understand how that is split out (or if it even is split out).

[City]

How does someone posting a link to something that is sold by a non paying vendor/sponsor the same thing?

If I post a link to an eBay auction or something on craigslist or some random site to a car or car part, is that the same thing paying sponsors are getting? No!

http://driveviper.com/advertise/

Paying to be a sponsor gets you:



And:



A link to something sold elsewhere does not get you those things. They are not getting anything for free. They are most likely not even aware it was shared on the forums. It is word of mouth spread by the members. If a sponsor wants to chime and and say they can offer the competitive price on whatever it is, by all means they have the right to do so, however they are paying to sponsor their business, not block information sharing.

If a sponsor wants to pay to be in Viper Quarterly that is their choice. They get:



I am so sick of this behind closed doors crap on the Viper forums. It's the automotive only forum I have ever seen it on. For moderators and leaders to tell members to keep it to PM is absolutely insane. Where people need to discuss info through PM like its a cloak and dagger society. Where parts are advertised by vendors by prices are not posted. It's like you need to be in the good old boys club to get a certain price or info and if your're not you are wondering if you are paying more than the next guy. It absolutely boggles my mind. But then why should it, when there is this kind of money floating around between members, groups, and the "club" is it really any surprise?

I am a paying member who has shelled out a lot of money in the less than a year to be a mamba member, get a number, and two tickets to NVE. My voice is every bit as valid as the moderators and presidents. My voice is every bit as valid as a non paying member who participates on the forums. Just because I pay to have a magazine show up and get a number and other benefits does not mean my opinions and posts hold more water than an active member who chooses not to pay for those perks. Without active members there is no VOA.

I will only continue to pay dues when I see value in it. If my posts and others are going to be limited because some paying sponsors might be worried about a random post here and there to something for sale cheaper than what they might offer I am done. I thought we moved on from this crap. It was one of the biggest complaints by many from VCA. I will not be censored like that. If I find something cool or a good deal I will share it with hopes of a fellow member getting a deal. If a vendor can't handle that and has to complain about it that is their problem. If the VOA want's to try and bully members and edit posts to try and protect cash flow of sponsors it will be the VOAs death knell. The VOA better look in the mirror long and hard on this.

I won't debate your opinion(s) because they are all valid, and despite your claims to the contrary, a discussion is ensuing. I do however, think that your are so far over the top with regard to the level of your concern and drama that it's sort of freaking me out here. No one is or has suggested that you are somehow "less valid" nor is there any "bullying". I'd also like to believe that the deleted link of a non-VOA member would not be tantamount to the ringing of the VOA's death knell. If you truly believe that this single "rule" makes us equivalent to the VCA, then you're loosing your grip on reality. I cannot for the life of me understand why you feel so threatened here, in a discussion regarding the potential for the deletion of forum links.

We're all here reading this thread with great interest, but the opinions expressed to this point are far from conclusive and seem to represent a few highly over-excited members. We all get it; no one likes rules. But we're trying to maintain a balance that is most difficult, and as Janni mentioned, we not at all opposed to change when appropriate. Although, as the VOA death knell tolls, I sort of wonder if I shouldn't be packing my survival gear and get my family out to the bunker.

[ACRucrazy]

No one is or has suggested that you are somehow "less valid" nor is there any "bullying".

Yet you and Janni both suggest that Timnineside is "less valid" since he is a non paying member


There's SO no need for any sarcasm. Especially from someone that obviously places little value in our club membership.
..
And about that "and so it begins"... A simple noun that rhymes with pool will work.



Just to be clear - a paying community member's post was NOT edited.

[Mr White]

Let me just put this question out there to you. Are you a paying sponsor? If not, then you probably would feel different if you were. Would you like to see your money wasted because you paid the right to advertise and someone else was getting it for free and thus could offset their price accordingly.

We are not the sponsors' sheep, and paying for a sponsorship isn't the privilege to be our shepherd.

I value their contributions, but if that gives them privilege to put a pair of blinders on people, the value of the forums will degrade.

[Janni]

I mentioned that he was not a member because someone else had mentioned that "paying members posts are being deleted" or something to that effect (or at least that is how I read it) certainly no disrespect to the OP or trying to marginalize him. Just - a clarification.

Discussion is ensuing. As you can see here - there are VOA members on both sides of this issue, so it's not a particularly clear cut issue of allowing links is a 100% slam dunk and supported by everyone....

City is the keeper of the forum, the moderators and that community have pretty large discretion on interpreting policy and making recommendations. I am looking into this -others are too - several are pretty busy organizing our first national event.

I don't know what more I can do to say we're not adverse to change - but we'd want to query more folks - including the vendors, and try to do our best. Ultimately - that's all we can do- and we know we won't please everyone all the time. It' a fact of life - but it should would be nice if folks wouldn't take things to such a personal level / blow things like this out of proportion (it seems to go from 0-60 in the "you idiots are just as bad as the VCA" in about 2.8 seconds.)

Vendor advertising money - like dues - goes to all aspects of the club operations - keeping this site running, insurance, City's massive salary (JUST KIDDING PEOPLE - SETTLE DOWN)..., conference calling system to have calls with the Presidents, and a host of other expenses. Brad can give an idea of expenses- but overall - we're pretty lean.

It would be nice if the level of animosity and threatening tone / VCA comparison could be ratcheted down and we could maintain a level of courtesy to one another that we would afford in a face to face conversation.

[CarolinaViper]

If everyone would stop and take a minute to think of the initial cause without the added hyperbole it concerns they deleting of a link when there was no rules or understanding concerning such. The moderators are saying one thing and then another. The issue is not about vendors its about "Moderators" having the liberty to delete/edit threads when there is no clear cut rules. "Viper Girl" did a great job in responding to why she did it...Right or Wrong she at least explained why. The others (to include myself) responded in their reasons of why it was wrong. No sarcasm was related until "City" responded, after that the flood waters rushed with all responses.

No one believes this is going to be the start of the end for the VOA. IMO what should have been done and maybe will after some time, someone in leadership will see that its a hot topic and will join in and say the situation will be looked into and addressed with the region presidents throughout the club for further clarification.

To all those who responded go back and read your individual post and those of other's without the criticism and look for common ground to fix this problem. After reading the post I think "ACRucrazy" has some valid similarities that go back to the VCA and other forums he has been with. More important you know those VCA members are loving this thread. Lets, let cooler heads prevail (with membership approval if needed) and move on.

[TrackAire]

If I was a paying sponsor I would rather see that than having that non-paying sponsors links and goods advertised constantly. Let's just use another example here of a person who sells brake pads or wheels. The person who pays to advertise is cutting into his profit margin for every place he advertises. Do you think it is fair to that person to have someone go around posting links of a competitors wheels or brake pads just because they are cheaper? If you owned a restaurant and you paid to have billboards with your restaurants information on said billboard, would you think it was fair to have someone come along and place a big sticker on the billboard you paid to advertise on?

Let's just make another hypothetical comparison, let's suppose you were Borla and you were selling a catback exhaust for $1000 and were a paying vendor. Do you think it would be right for Corsa to come in and start posting ads even though they were not a sponsor? And then you might have a third vendor who was a retailer for both of the products come in and undersell both because he was just looking to get exposure for his company and was willing to take a small loss on said exhaust. Would that be fair to the paying vendor?

I understand the explanation of your version of what you think a vendor is paying for on this forum. I respectfully disagree and would suggest that the real value to a sponsoring vendor is the ability to communicate on this forum their products, services and advice directly to each forum member. If you take the number of visiting people to this site and divide it by the dollars a paying vendor spends for the banner ad, it really is not a great deal. But, the advantage is the vendor can post products, pricing, advice, etc on this forum. That is what sets them apart from the world of flea bay, RockAuto, etc. Being able to actually communicate with a potential customer is huge....how many vendors talk to a customer for a small part (lets say an MGW shifter) and end up selling them multiple other parts? If I understand it correctly, non paying vendors cannot log on and talk with forum members on this site.....which IMO is the correct rule.

Please realize that if a potential customer (that does not visit this forum ever) googles a Chrysler part number or description, he may or may not get a sponsoring forum member as a potential seller. Since this thread is about window regulators, I googled "Viper window regulator for sale", "Viper window regulator", "replacement Viper window regulator" and "Viper window regulator dealer". Going back up to 6 pages of google search, only one VOA sponsoring vendor came up, "The Viper Store". (The VPA was generally on the first page of most searches). So here is a product that the other forum sponsoring vendors would never even get a hit on, but if the link posted on this forum was visible to them, they'd have direct communication not only with Tim looking for the regulator, but all others viewing this forum, today and in future searches for as long as this forum is up.

Also, what if the link posted by a forum member is for a part that no VOA sponsoring vendor sells or has ever sold? How does that help the Viper owner? If the sponsoring vendor did not know it exists, he now has access to the knowledge and can become a dealer for that new part, again helping him grow his business. Again, holding back knowledge will hurt the entire Viper market place and actually hurt sponsoring vendors ultimate sales.

I would think asking the forum sponsors their opinion would be key, especially after they've reviewed this thread and the concerns listed. Hopefully everyone can come to a conclusion that most feel good about....unfortunately it will be impossible to make everybody happy.

Cheers,
George

[plumcrazy]

im just glad i didnt delete the thread or link and cause an uprising for once. LOL

[IndyRon]

It's truly amazing to me that this is already about money. If it weren't, we would say that the members have a right to post about whatever they want. After all, how in the world is a link to a specific product deep down in a thread within a subforum of this website a form of unpaid advertising? Like I said earlier, I personally have spent over $7000 with VOA contributing vendors in the last 3 months and call some of them friends but this forum is about the MEMBERS, not vendors. I value freedom of speech above money issues.

If the forum can't have freedom of speech, then just let the vendors be a part for free and we will make do with the slight decrease in revenue as a community and find other ways to pay the bills. I will remove my past threads that provide a fair amount of knowledge including installations of vendor products with pictures, how-to's, product reviews, and overall platform information as well as discontinue membership if free speech is no longer a tenet of this forum.

I like many of the people in the club and made many lasting friendships so I don't say this without an amount of sadness. This forum doesn't belong to the mods/presidents/VP's and isn't run by them if done correctly...It should be much like our gov't was initially designed to be...an ideal....like democracy. Take ownership in the idea and further the idea...not possess the accomplishment. Free speech and opinions should not and can not be stifled, repressed, or just plain removed with unilateral discretion.

This should be a public vote on the forum as to whether or not mods can arbitrarily delete ANY content they feel is a threat to business for a vendor. Lets vote....prove the VOA is different.

[Viper Girl]

I am going to explain what I did and why more indepth.


Yes, I deleted the link... Nothing else in Timinsides post was deleted... I removed the link because it is my understanding that is our forum moderator policy. The VOA runs a very lightly moderated forum here, and sometimes we do step in.

Mods don't make policy, we have been asked what we think... But we don't make policy.

I felt that my explanation was sufficient to the action I took at the time... The link was a general link to a parts site I had not seen before. The link was not directly to the part, I searched for window regulators and saw a listing with a price that didn't include a part number. I came back to the site, said why I deleted the link... Mentioned the ending of the current generation of that part. I think it would suck to order the part then get the crappy old one that breaks... To me, that was what I was supposed to do. We don't have an anon- moderator account here, I did delete the link. We have always been told if we do something leave a reason. I did that. I am truly sorry, this has turned into a huge firestorm. It was not my intention. Personal attacks, wasn't my intention...

I can also tell you from my time here moderating... (I am member #14 so there are 13 others here longer... ;)) In all that time, the VOA hasn't - in my personal experience - and isn't now about Money, Money, Money... as some are now accusing. I think some of that is anger and frustration with what has happened in our community recently.

I can tell you every volunteer here works hard. This club has been about setting up a cool place for everyone to come hang and socialize... Doing more for members... not to members.... Really...

Yes, money comes in... and guess what? Half of the membership fee goes back to the region... The rest goes out too... I'm not in accounting... but if you look at what we have here... it has to...

Vendors pay for the forums and that beautiful magazine we recently received... All of that costs real world dollars... This isn't a for profit club or forum... It's non-profit...
Our NVE event in July... Giving away a freaking Gen V... If anything, this club is working to figure out how to give back more to it's members...

It's never been about take away from the members, or anyone for that matter... It's really discouraging to me that this is what some members think. It coldn't be further from the truth.

We don't have a huge profitable forum. BUT please, lets compare apples to apples... We are a new forum, with changes that will inevitably happen as we grow more... We are a small community, with limited manufacturers for parts... Some Vendors who specialize in our favorite car... Some who are new to our community, which is awesome... The Viper World is a very small World. We need members, vendors, manufacturers and volunteers to keep all this running, and somehow find a middle ground for all.

Which I'm convinced we can do, if we all work together.

[Mr White]

I can also tell you from my time here moderating... (I am member #14 so there are 13 others here longer... ;)) In all that time, the VOA hasn't - in my personal experience - and isn't now about Money, Money, Money... as some are now accusing. I think some of that is anger and frustration with what has happened in our community recently.


Your actions were that of someone who was protecting a business who's primary job is to sell advertisements; I would expect nothing less than outrage.

People will articulate their thoughts in many different ways, but that is what it all boils down to. Many people here could probably tell you where that leads to.

[Janni]

Your actions were that of someone who was protecting a business who's primary job is to sell advertisements; I would expect nothing less than outrage.

People will articulate their thoughts in many different ways, but that is what it all boils down to. Many people here could probably tell you where that leads to.

That's BS and uncalled for.

Advertisers expect something for their dollar. Members expect something for their dollar. The VOA tries to provide value in membership - both in providing forums, insurance, magazines, national events, central membership processing / renewals, access to merchandise, common branding and consistency, all so that regions can focus on having fun with cars without dealing with all the administration 30+ times over, and we can bring together the larger community of Viper owners under a single umbrella.

There is ZERO evidence that the primary purpose here is to sell advertisements.

It's precisely that shit that makes volunteers sick and tired of devoting time and effort trying to do the right thing only to have their integrity questioned. My "pay" isn't worth it - nor is ViperGirls.

I'll bring this general topic up for further review - but after that messed up comment

Janni OUT.

[IndyRon]

That's BS and uncalled for.

Advertisers expect something for their dollar. Members expect something for their dollar. The VOA tries to provide value in membership - both in providing forums, insurance, magazines, national events, central membership processing / renewals, access to merchandise, common branding and consistency, all so that regions can focus on having fun with cars without dealing with all the administration 30+ times over, and we can bring together the larger community of Viper owners under a single umbrella.

There is ZERO evidence that the primary purpose here is to sell advertisements.

It's precisely that shit that makes volunteers sick and tired of devoting time and effort trying to do the right thing only to have their integrity questioned. My "pay" isn't worth it - nor is ViperGirls.

I'll bring this general topic up for further review - but after that messed up comment

Janni OUT.

"Something for their dollar" does not include CENSORSHIP....period. They get access, unlimited and unfettered ability to directly contact their exact demographic for their business as well as obvious direct advertisement in the form of banners/ads/etc. That's it!

[Timnineside]

Wow, a lot has happened to this thread. I don't even know where to start.

First, I didn't expect the VOA to go this route so I will have to admit I was caught off guard a bit. I am a business owner and its how I make a living. That's all I do and I see the benefit in every which way possible so I can understand the concern. At the same time I don't shun people from my competitors. I make sure what I do is better so they want to deal with me. Some do, some don't its the cost of doing business.

Deleting the link is fine, I could honestly care less. I've already found what I need and I suppose that's all that matters correct? I mean considering I don't pay to be on here. Of course there are reason's I don't pay to be here. For the same reasons I don't pay to be on the VCA anymore (this may come as a shock but not only did I pay, I was a Venom member!? Wow shocking right?). It's honestly a cluster fuck since all the BS went down and I'm just sitting back letting everyone figure their own personal issues that seemed to be getting carried over to these so called "for business" enthusiast forums. In all honesty I had full intentions of becoming a VOA member as soon as events started becoming more local and something I could benefit from. Can I benefit from this site? Sure, well at least I thought I could. But if this is the way things are then so be it. I'm too busy to deal with this. And before someone jumps the gun on coming to the CAAP I've already been there, also read the thread on charging people for dinner. Can't say I agree with that but that's another story.

Job B, in all honestly your comment pisses me off a bit. Thanks for the "FREE" decals. Such a big help you are bud. If you'd like I can vectorize them and send you a few hundred back. These would be free to you of course, but keep in mind I will throw it in your face later. Would that make you feel better? That seemed to be your biggest concern. Maybe I'll send some to Austin and other "non-Viper" owners. I spend almost $4k with you over the past few years and this is what really matters to you? Maybe you should update your website with things you have so people don't have to inconvenience you via email.


I'll go ahead and wrap this up. Feel free to delete my "add", delete my account and piss off.

-Tim

[Timnineside]

I don't see what the harm is in providing non site sponsored links, especially if the site sponsors are more than willing to be on par if not even a better deal. Sometimes you are searching for parts/services late at night or on the weekends, or the site sponsor doesn't have everything listed either.

Personally I think the *more* information that is posted here is better than trying to maintain a barrier... *removing* information that is posted is just another source of needless aggravation, imo.

Just needed to go back to this. This was, and usually is my case. I'm too busy during the day to handle anything non-business related so I end up online at night looking for things I need that I can't get locally.

I'm all about supporting the vendors, but one thing I will not do is overpay for things. I'm not in a position to piss away $1200 for a $200 part. Even if I was, I refuse to. Yeah sure I can call and get some "free" advice but it sounds like if I'm over paying for the part I'm paying for that advice either way. Why not go to the dealership?

A discussion in a thread is just that. I didn't start a thread to say screw the vendors, from my research this part was hitting people for a few hundred bucks over what I found it for. I thought I would share that. Now what happens when people like myself don't share these? Do you want to pay $1200 for the same part? If you do I will be more then happy to sell you a few (After I pay to be a member or supporting vendor of course). Giving a "vendor" a chance to meet or beat a price is complete shit. Sell the damn part for what you need to to make a living. That's the end of it. Other then that your gouging and that's not fair in my opinion.

[commandomatt]

Advertisers expect something for their dollar. Members expect something for their dollar.

Janni OUT.

'advertisers expect something for their dollar'

The sponsors buy the right to advertise. They do not buy the right to Monopolize.

The sponsors are here, supporting the site because they choose to. They know that their advertising will reach a certain amount of people. That's all they can expect for their dollar. The VOA is not telling them that they will get an exclusive on promoting certain parts and services. Advertising is nothing but a gamble and there are no guarantees that it will lead to anything. People that run businesses understand this

'Members expect something for their dollar'

I want to read about what others have done to their cars. What worked and what didn't. Other owners experiences. I did not join, and have zero interest in magazines, insurances, national events, local events or any other perks that are considered a 'value' by others. Each and every person has their reasons why they are involved with this site

So by removing information that may impact a decision that I make about my car, you are effectively taking away the one reason I am a member of this site.

I realize that this may just be one incident but that is how it begins. I hope that this thread doesn't go away but stays active to ensure that this is discussed and dealt with before it spins out of control

[Chorps]

I see that there are a lot of emotionally charged posts here, I'd personally prefer that people dialled down the rhetoric and accusations...if everyone can take a deep breath and relax maybe we can sort this out without ad hominems and raised voices (or bold faced type, as it were).

I understand everyone is passionate about their Vipers and passionate about this place, but asking 'someone why they are here', or 'threatening to quit' is not a helpful way of moving the discussion forward. People can disagree about things and still be friends, am I right? Let's just work out a coherent and thoughtful (and perhaps nuanced) policy.

Like I was saying before, rarely have protectionist policies worked. Giving sponsoring vendors a platform and airtime is great. Forcing people (not businesses trying to freeload) to self-censor informational posts, not so great.

I'm not going to put a lot else in this post, I think FrgMstr's position echoes mine, and he appears to have a lot more experience and legitimacy so I'll let him do all the talking.

[ACRucrazy]

http://www.nrcc.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/that-escalated-quickly-anchorman-gif.gif

[AbsolutHank]

Wow, a lot has happened to this thread. I don't even know where to start.

First, I didn't expect the VOA to go this route so I will have to admit I was caught off guard a bit. I am a business owner and its how I make a living. That's all I do and I see the benefit in every which way possible so I can understand the concern. At the same time I don't shun people from my competitors. I make sure what I do is better so they want to deal with me. Some do, some don't its the cost of doing business.

Deleting the link is fine, I could honestly care less. I've already found what I need and I suppose that's all that matters correct? I mean considering I don't pay to be on here. Of course there are reason's I don't pay to be here. For the same reasons I don't pay to be on the VCA anymore (this may come as a shock but not only did I pay, I was a Venom member!? Wow shocking right?). It's honestly a cluster fuck since all the BS went down and I'm just sitting back letting everyone figure their own personal issues that seemed to be getting carried over to these so called "for business" enthusiast forums. In all honesty I had full intentions of becoming a VOA member as soon as events started becoming more local and something I could benefit from. Can I benefit from this site? Sure, well at least I thought I could. But if this is the way things are then so be it. I'm too busy to deal with this. And before someone jumps the gun on coming to the CAAP I've already been there, also read the thread on charging people for dinner. Can't say I agree with that but that's another story.

Job B, in all honestly your comment pisses me off a bit. Thanks for the "FREE" decals. Such a big help you are bud. If you'd like I can vectorize them and send you a few hundred back. These would be free to you of course, but keep in mind I will throw it in your face later. Would that make you feel better? That seemed to be your biggest concern. Maybe I'll send some to Austin and other "non-Viper" owners. I spend almost $4k with you over the past few years and this is what really matters to you? Maybe you should update your website with things you have so people don't have to inconvenience you via email.


I'll go ahead and wrap this up. Feel free to delete my "add", delete my account and piss off.

-Tim


BOOM! Headshot!!

[AZTVR]

I like this discussion, myself. One must remember that through natural selection, VOA got the some of the most vocal, opinionated, passionate folks from the VCA. Folks that were banned or censored for expressing dissatisfaction and questioning policy and being emotionally charged about it. There hasn't been much in the VOA to discuss along those lines. For many, censorship of any kind is a hot button. Most understand the social aspect of the need to censor unacceptable words and violent words, and it seems most accept that. This discussion is about censorship for business reasons. Many do not do not want the new forum to go down that road, and I'd bet the moderators prefer not to have that responsibility either. If it is necessary in order to fund the club, then so be it.

[FrgMstr]

Mods don't make policy, we have been asked what we think... But we don't make policy.

I posted this question earlier and it was ignored. And none of my thoughts have been based on "money," but rather COMMUNITY and those have not been responded to either...

What exactly does the "policy" state? Let's state that right here and now so we are all on the same page and know what is being enforced. How will that policy exactly be enforced?

[98intrigue]

I understand both sides of the issue...but one thing I'd like to point out is that this is a 3-page (so far) open discussion on how the VOA moderates the forum. I commend the mods for not deleting any of the posts, whether positive or negative, and allowing this discussion to continue. For those of you comparing the VOA to the VCA, you know the VCA would have locked this thread long ago and probably suspended/banned a couple of you.

I've spent my money with some of the VOA sponsors, as well as finding parts cheaper elsewhere. Ultimately, it is the buyer's choice who they spend their money with. I don't believe the link should have been deleted, but I also don't think the VOA is turning into the VCA because of this one event. I'm glad to hear the VOA is at least willing to review the policy.

[Shooter]

I understand both sides of the issue...but one thing I'd like to point out is that this is a 3-page (so far) open discussion on how the VOA moderates the forum. I commend the mods for not deleting any of the posts, whether positive or negative, and allowing this discussion to continue. For those of you comparing the VOA to the VCA, you know the VCA would have locked this thread long ago and probably suspended/banned a couple of you.

I've spent my money with some of the VOA sponsors, as well as finding parts cheaper elsewhere. Ultimately, it is the buyer's choice who they spend their money with. I don't believe the link should have been deleted, but I also don't think the VOA is turning into the VCA because of this one event. I'm glad to hear the VOA is at least willing to review the policy.

This.

[Rizzo]

Another way of looking at it. If I was a sponsoring vendor I would be happy to have somebody elses prices posted as it gives me an opportunity to see whats going on out there and also to be the first one to try and get ahold of the customer looking for the part and call him or email him with the same or better offer. To me its just another opportunity to do business. I hate polictics so I could care less if they change or modify the policy and wont get in to a debate about that but I think any opportunity for a sale should be jumped on. I guess if the OP hadnt have made a post about his finding, none of the vendors on here would have ever had a chance to sell him the same part.

[ViperTony]

I think some of you are making this issue into something it is not. Some of you have articulated valid points too. But call it drama, conspiracy theories, some of you thrive on this stuff. I think some of you are drama queens too but it's your nature and frankly there's nothing really wrong with that. One of you simply enjoys stirring the pot. I also think some of you have hidden agendas against some of the sponsors as well.

One of the nice things about this club is that these discussions are not hidden, censored or suddenly closed by a coward hiding behind a generic site account. I find it ironic that some of you cry censorship when, in fact, you're not being censored. The fact that I can even state that I believe some of you are drama queens without being censored is a breath of fresh air here.

And for the record, I don't care one way or another on the issue of allowing or not allowing non-sponsor posts and pricing on the site. I know the intent of the policy and I'm OK with it. But I do care about volunteers being attacked with cowardly accusations. One really has to be a dumb ass not to be able to Google parts for better pricing. Even dumber not to call a site sponsor and ask if they could match or beat the pricing. To each their own. If some of you are so bent on not renewing your membership over this then don't let the door hit you on the way out. Go, it's OK storm out like a woman scorned. I think it's comical that for some of you the bane of your existence in this club is the issue at hand.

OR, if you really gave a shit you stay and you can help change the policy in a more effective manner:

We are a small community of owners of a limited production barely-street-legal race car. For some generations, parts are no longer made and very hard to come by if at all. We have a very small community of vendors that specialize in our Vipers. We don't have the luxury of thousands of vendors that support those other mass-produced cars.

If there's an issue with the current policy it's not about censorship, accusations, etc. it's that the policy may inadvertently deny members or enthusiasts an opportunity to source a part that is unobtainable or rare or limited. If Company XYZ makes a steel birdcage bushing for Gen1-2 Vipers that doesn't exist today and is a huge benefit to the Viper community it would be a shame that they cannot be mentioned here because of the policy. In some cases, it can be such a niche product that signing up for sponsorship eliminates whatever little margin they may be making on that birdcage. There are other examples.

You have 30+ members on the VOA national board that may listen to intelligent arguments and may bring it up for discussion. It's easy to bitch, accuse, etc. but harder to actually help solve the issue. If all you want to do is make accusations go piss off there's another club meant for that. On the other hand, if you want to help and have an intelligent, well thought out alternative on how to make this policy better you have 30+ people to work with. Your choice.

[BlknBlu]

Can we move this to another thread and let the OP work thru selling his car and the issue with a part that went bad? This discussion is bigger than that and can be worked through to resolution. I am just now seeing how this thread got changed.

thanks

Bruce

[ACRucrazy]

I am sorry ViperTony, but these 2 comments right here set the tone for this whole thread in my mind.


Nothing is beginning, we have a forum policy about non-sponsoring vendors links and sales... As many forums do... period...




There's SO no need for any sarcasm. Especially from someone that obviously places little value in our club membership.

[ViperTony]

I am sorry ViperTony, but these 2 comments right here set the tone for this whole thread in my mind.

I understand but remember I once helped you, or tried to, resolve a problem with a classified item on the other site. I think I was helpful but I know many, if not all, of the volunteers here share the same passion for helping make things better. Give it a chance. City is City and we all know he's 'special' and knowing that I understand him. ;)

[ACRucrazy]

I understand but remember I once helped you, or tried to, resolve a problem with a classified item on the other site. I think I was helpful but I know many, if not all, of the volunteers here share the same mentality for helping. Give it a chance.

I did not forget one bit you reached out.

http://www.viperalley.com/forum/1943177-post447.html

[City]

I like this discussion, myself. One must remember that through natural selection, VOA got the some of the most vocal, opinionated, passionate folks from the VCA. Folks that were banned or censored for expressing dissatisfaction and questioning policy and being emotionally charged about it. There hasn't been much in the VOA to discuss along those lines. For many, censorship of any kind is a hot button. Most understand the social aspect of the need to censor unacceptable words and violent words, and it seems most accept that. This discussion is about censorship for business reasons. Many do not do not want the new forum to go down that road, and I'd bet the moderators prefer not to have that responsibility either. If it is necessary in order to fund the club, then so be it.


I understand both sides of the issue...but one thing I'd like to point out is that this is a 3-page (so far) open discussion on how the VOA moderates the forum. I commend the mods for not deleting any of the posts, whether positive or negative, and allowing this discussion to continue. For those of you comparing the VOA to the VCA, you know the VCA would have locked this thread long ago and probably suspended/banned a couple of you.

I've spent my money with some of the VOA sponsors, as well as finding parts cheaper elsewhere. Ultimately, it is the buyer's choice who they spend their money with. I don't believe the link should have been deleted, but I also don't think the VOA is turning into the VCA because of this one event. I'm glad to hear the VOA is at least willing to review the policy.


Another way of looking at it. If I was a sponsoring vendor I would be happy to have somebody elses prices posted as it gives me an opportunity to see whats going on out there and also to be the first one to try and get ahold of the customer looking for the part and call him or email him with the same or better offer. To me its just another opportunity to do business. I hate polictics so I could care less if they change or modify the policy and wont get in to a debate about that but I think any opportunity for a sale should be jumped on. I guess if the OP hadnt have made a post about his finding, none of the vendors on here would have ever had a chance to sell him the same part.

It's nice to see that some folks recognize that this issue, termed "censorship" in this thread (but that word's meaning far surpasses what's actually transpired), does not have an obvious and correct "fix". As I've mentioned previously (I think) there's a balance of several variables, preferences, demands and needs that are difficult (at least for me) to manage without upsetting some of the great cast of characters here on the VOA forum. It's been noted several times that a discussion towards some resolution is ongoing. It's just silly when folks simply "quit" because they don't like a particular forum occurrence. That is the way of the VCA since disagreement was not tolerated. Some of you should note (and memorialize in your heads) that many of our group of moderators, region presidents and national officers came here because we/they were the target(s) and victim(s) of circumstances similar, but FAR more vindictive, than a part link deletion with explanation. Speaking solely for myself, I am not yet convinced of the best path to resolution here (not that the ultimate decision and policy is up to me). Of course the discussion will remain open (as some have noted with my thanks).

With reference to one comment about my "sarcasm" (I can't find it to quote in the midst of this rapidly ongoing thread), I'm particularly sensitive to comparisons to the VCA. I despise all that transpired and all the people involved. They disgust me as a fellow human being, plain and simple. When we have an issue here, I get pissed off big time when someone's first comment is "this is the same as the VCA (or the like)". You could not be more wrong and I don't appreciate the reference in the least. If you go there, sorry, but sarcasm is the least you should expect from me. ;)

[City]

There's SO no need for any sarcasm. Especially from someone that obviously places little value in our club membership.


I am sorry ViperTony, but these 2 comments right here set the tone for this whole thread in my mind.

Either I misspoke or you misunderstood. The OP was being sarcastic with regard to the VOA being the same as the VCA. I noted that the OP was not a VOA member, i.e, he "places little value in our club membership".

I'm lost as to how that can set any tone of than that of the OP's original ugly comparison.

[ACRucrazy]

With recent discussion, I am curious what the VOA Members think about this issue?

Should links to Viper related parts and/or cars be allowed on the forums if they are not to a paying sponsors website?

Example: "I found a great price on this Viper part, located here www.randoviperpartforagoodpricedotcom if anyone needs one" or "A great price to a XXXX Year Viper found here on www.ebay/autotrader/craigslist/random websitedotcom"

Just a simple yes or no works if you want. Note the results are not public, no one will see how you voted.

[City]

Can we move this to another thread and let the OP work thru selling his car and the issue with a part that went bad? This discussion is bigger than that and can be worked through to resolution. I am just now seeing how this thread got changed.

thanks

Bruce

Tony also requested this earlier. The OP and on topic responses might include 3-4 posts before this thread went off topic. I really don't know how to bisect it. I guess I could copy the entire thread and then edit both halves leaving the original 3-4 posts here and then letting the remainder continue in a separate thread under a new title. Maybe another mod has a better idea?

[ACRucrazy]

Either I misspoke or you misunderstood. The OP was being sarcastic with regard to the VOA being the same as the VCA. I noted that the OP was not a VOA member, i.e, he "places little value in our club membership".

I'm lost as to how that can set any tone of than that of the OP's original ugly comparison.

I just don't see what it matters if someone chooses to pay to be a member. To me, it came off as a negative comment since he chooses not to pay annual dues. It should never of been brought up. I rarely even look to see if someone is a VOA Member or Enthusiast. If they are a Viper owner asking for help, sharing information or have a recommendation for the VOA their input is worth exactly the same as someone who pays dues.

[BlknBlu]

Before i would answer, I would like to see how our sponsors feel about it. To me they are an important part of Viper since we are such a niche group.

Bruce

[ACRucrazy]

Also, with all the debate between members, mods, club leaders etc, I figured I would just create a simple poll if anyone cares to vote. Results are not public, no one will know how you vote:

http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/4178-Should-links-to-non-paying-Sponsor-parts-cars-be-allowed-on-the-VOA

[City]

Your presentation of this question is skewed. There are also so many ways to offer links to fellow members and/or find competitive pricing to utilize when calling upon one of our sponsors (for negotiation), specific links of this nature might not be all that imperative. BlknBlu also raised what is perhaps a more important question above.

Just for the sake of clarity and disclosure, aren't you, with a dozen or so Viper parts listed in our classifieds, also in the "parts business"?

[ACRucrazy]

Your presentation of this question is skewed. There are also so many ways to offer links to fellow members and/or find competitive pricing to utilize when calling upon one of our sponsors (for negotiation), specific links of this nature might not be all that imperative. BlknBlu also raised what is perhaps a more important question above.

So are sponsors more important than owners/members?



Just for the sake of clarity and disclosure, aren't you, with a dozen or so Viper parts listed in our classifieds, also in the "parts business"?

Not at all.

[ViperTony]

Also, with all the debate between members, mods, club leaders etc, I figured I would just create a simple poll if anyone cares to vote. Results are not public, no one will know how you vote:

http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/4178-Should-links-to-non-paying-Sponsor-parts-cars-be-allowed-on-the-VOA


Good idea on the poll!

[rw99]

The usual solution is to go ahead and discuss, rave, whatever, about non-sponsor parts or cars. But we don't post links or advertisements, instead we say "PM me for details".

The VOA site, IMO, should first and foremost be about Viper owners sharing any and all information. It's a little messy sometimes, yes. But Sponsors should know that their support does not entitle them to expect the exclusion of non-sponsor products from all discussion.

And I'll end this with a big THANK YOU to our sponsors, not just for their support of the club, but for the excellent products and service they provide. We're really fortunate.

[AZTVR]

Just for clarification, since it was brought up twice that the usage of the term censor or censorship is not really appropriate in this case, I was using the term as I learned it and as defined in the Oxford English dictionary. VERB: "Examine (a book, movie, etc.) officially and suppress unacceptable parts of it." i.e. the club's designated moderator examined the post and deleted (suppressed) a part of it.

I did not mean to imply there was any malice, ill intent, subterfuge, etc and I don't think that anyone else is.

I understand that the word censorship is often commonly used when speaking of suppression of speech or written word when that suppression is done with self serving intent. However, the word is entirely appropriate and correct here, even if one doesn't like the term. Censorship is acceptable for certain situations. That is the debate here.

[Nine Ball]

Before i would answer, I would like to see how our sponsors feel about it. To me they are an important part of Viper since we are such a niche group.

Bruce

It depends on the circumstances, for us. If I were an advertising Dodge dealership here, I wouldn't find the advertising value worthwhile if people were posting links to my competitor's cars. Same for my company, regarding wheels.

I wouldn't have a problem with people sharing links about new products on the market, but only from the product manufacturer site - something that discusses the technical specs or such of a product. Not a sales related link for that product. Unless the product is something that none of the vendors here carry, anyways. This would be considered sharing info, and can be helpful.

I frequent a lot of car sites. I only advertise on a few. The sites that allow non-sponsors to post sale ad links, give me no incentive to support that site.

Thanks,
Tony

[FLATOUT]

Voted Yes, Thanks!

But it's still a "policy" that is very difficult to get just right. Every forum does it a little differently and rarely are both sides happy, which is why I tend to air on the side of the members as without the community membership the sponsors would have no one to sell to.

Perfect example of a free market aproach that I used today with my own purchase.

I found TPMS sensors at a non site supporting vendor and also got quotes from two site supporters. Both VOA site vendors were $20 higher per sensor. I emailed the site supporter the link and asked if they would price match.

They did and got the sale. If they were not a paid sponsor here I would not have given them last look, but they are, so they did.

Andy

[City]

But it's still a "policy" that is very difficult to get just right. Every forum does it a little differently and rarely are both sides happy.

Andy

Bingo.

[City]

Just for clarification, since it was brought up twice that the usage of the term censor or censorship is not really appropriate in this case, I was using the term as I learned it and as defined in the Oxford English dictionary. VERB: "Examine (a book, movie, etc.) officially and suppress unacceptable parts of it." i.e. the club's designated moderator examined the post and deleted (suppressed) a part of it.

I did not mean to imply there was any malice, ill intent, subterfuge, etc and I don't think that anyone else is.

I understand that the word censorship is often commonly used when speaking of suppression of speech or written word when that suppression is done with self serving intent. However, the word is entirely appropriate and correct here, even if one doesn't like the term. Censorship is acceptable for certain situations. That is the debate here.

Well, if you're going all educatated here..... ;)

You are obviously correct from the standpoint of strict definition. I took exception with the more general connotation, usage and intent, perhaps wrongly so. "Censorship", as applied to the deletion of a single link to a $35 internet discount on a $295 product to ME is alike to using a 25 pound sledgehammer to drive a thumbtack. Similar to associating this "incident" as a violation of the poster's the First Amendment rights.

[FrgMstr]

Tony also requested this earlier. The OP and on topic responses might include 3-4 posts before this thread went off topic. I really don't know how to bisect it. I guess I could copy the entire thread and then edit both halves leaving the original 3-4 posts here and then letting the remainder continue in a separate thread under a new title. Maybe another mod has a better idea?


Exactly....easy to do. Copy this thread to the appropriate forum. Delete the first few topical posts, and rename the thread. Delete the off topics from the first thread. Done. Any mod or admin should be able to do this. Only takes a few minutes.

[XSnake]

Voted No.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

I don’t think there is a policy that will work 100% of the time. As a Viper owner I welcome any and all information on products out there for my car. As Nine Ball eludes to, if no current sponsor offers a similar product what’s the harm in sharing that information. Maybe that non-sponsor will become more aware of the community and even eventually become a sponsor.

This said, it would be very difficult and time consuming for the moderators to make decisions on what links should be allowed without simple rules (sponsor=yes, non-sponsor=no). In the end someone would always feel cheated with the decision.

At the same time, the sponsors need to have a reason to support the forums. Sponsors not only pay for that title but are often asked to donate to raffles / etc. There are advantages and disadvantages to being a sponsor here (for example sponsors are not eligible for the door prize at homecoming as it would look like a “fixed” drawing if they won). So the advantages need to outweigh the disadvantages to maintain the relationship. Allowing promotion of products is one of those perks.

[ACRucrazy]

Exactly....easy to do. Copy this thread to the appropriate forum. Delete the first few topical posts, and rename the thread. Delete the off topics from the first thread. Done. Any mod or admin should be able to do this. Only takes a few minutes.

As a moderator on another forum I agree. It is very easy to move/split threads.

[whitebeard]

For the record, I moved the posts that were not relevant to the OP to the poll thread.

[ACRucrazy]

For the record, I moved the posts that were not relevant to the OP to the poll thread.

Thank you, however now the poll makes no sense since its buried pages back in post 84 instead of the first post.

[whitebeard]

Oddly enough it shows up as the top of the first thread in Chrome.

[ACRucrazy]

I see what you are saying as I am using chrome too, I guess my point was the first post in the thread is by Viper Girl, and that is because of the dates of the merged threads, I get that.

Anyways, thanks for cleaning up the original thread.

[whitebeard]

I see what you are saying as I am using chrome too, I guess my point was the first post in the thread is by Viper Girl, and that is because of the dates of the merged threads, I get that.

Anyways, thanks for cleaning up the original thread.

That I am working on, Just figured with the temperament of some, it would be better to put a preliminary description of my actions.
I edited the first post, till I can find the advanced admin permissions.

[VYPR BYT]

I can't believe anyone would think this poll is needed...

Let's think about this people;
Supporting Vendors; Hmm, well the word "support" is in the title so it must mean something - oh yeah, maybe they "support" this site! – duh

Look, I get it that everyone wants everything at their fingertips for free – because they simply deserve it, right?
After all, Google gives us what we want when we want it, right? Well, Yes and No… Google is also add supported and the top payers get top billing which is what you see first when you do a search.

Okay, forget the internet – let’s talk something “everyone” can relate to like the interstate and highways for example…

If You are paying 2K/month for advertising space on a billboard for your company which sells widgets, you do so happily as you’re getting bang-for-your-buck with a captive audience traveling as every day traffic. Then after 8 months the owner of this billboard tells your direct competitor he can use the other side of the billboard for free – why? Because he’s doing just fine paying for the construction of the billboard with the support he’s getting from You every month. I’m pretty sure You wouldn't like that much.

Looking at it in this light it seems rather asinine to even raise this issue here on the voa.
Good grief it's not rocket science people... it's just real life. Put you big-boy pants on and be a part of it.

[FrgMstr]

If You are paying 2K/month for advertising space on a billboard for your company which sells widgets, you do so happily as you’re getting bang-for-your-buck with a captive audience traveling as every day traffic. Then after 8 months the owner of this billboard tells your direct competitor he can use the other side of the billboard for free – why? Because he’s doing just fine paying for the construction of the billboard with the support he’s getting from You every month. I’m pretty sure You wouldn't like that much.

Looking at it in this light it seems rather asinine to even raise this issue here on the voa.
Good grief it's not rocket science people... it's just real life. Put you big-boy pants on and be a part of it.

Your analogy is terribly flawed. Much same as I pointed out in the previous one put forward by the staff here.

To be to your point though, there is a "billboard" on this page that the advertiser has purchased. I do not think he purchased the ability to have any references to non-paying competing companies stricken in community members' posts.

If you would read my post here (http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/4178-Should-links-to-non-paying-Sponsor-parts-cars-be-allowed-on-the-VOA?p=61102&viewfull=1#post61102), it might give you some insight to running a modern internet forum.

[XSnake]

As an owner of many billboards, nobody gets on them for free ;)

[mjorgensen]

When I need a simple cheap non-auto part I Oogle it also and decide who to trust the purchase to. I also know that if I need help they won't do that. Fact is that some of the vendors are actual businesses with employees, inventory and buildings to pay for and cannot always offer parts at 2% mark up while also offering 24/7 forum coverage for members. I actually choose to spend my days and most nights "trolling" the Viper forums so I can help where I can. I get a lot of PM's, Emails, and calls from people day and night that have never and might never buy anything from me, I still help them, but if this was my own company I could see how that would get old fast. I do this on 9 different forums (Mopar, GM, Porsche, Ford also) just to help although we only sponsor a few so I cannot sell or advertise anything on them. I love my job and doing this, but it does hurt a bit to get beat out over a few dollars.
Either way they decide I'll deal with, but it is nice to be valued for what you do not just what you can give away.

Thanks

[AZTVR]

I see and have seen numerous mentions of non-sponsor vendors on the forum. (Sponsor as defined by the web page http://driveviper.com/club/sponsors.php )

They probably come and go, so that could be part of that reason. What I wondered is, does the policy under discussion only cover hyperlinks that one clicks on, or possibly copy and paste into a browser ?
Is the policy meant to stop mention of competing but non sponsoring vendors also? For example, people often point people to a dealership for service or car purchase that is not a sponsor, ( with no link other than the text name. ) yet, there are more than one car dealers here as sponsors. Is that mention subject to editing?

Just asking, to understand what the policy is and where the line is, if it can be drawn. Sometimes talking about the details reveals what people are getting at when they desire not to have any rule about referencing non-sponsors.

[FLATOUT]

Mark I always give a sponsor last look, and the opportunity to price match. Most of the time they will , but even when they don't, if I can tell they are trying I will give them the business. I won't if the dollar figure is substantial but if we're close I personally make the choice to support our vendors.

That being said I like free markets so I like information to be more open. The window regulator that got this whole thing started is interesting in and of it self. Dodge engineered a terrible part that fails left and right. The fact that any member is having to go out and replace these even at the new and improved cost bothers me. They should have been recalled. So I want our people to replace these as cheap as possible, PERIOD. I personally hope no one makes even a 1 cent profit on this particular part. Upgrades and general routine upkeep are different all together.

[98intrigue]

Mark I always give a sponsor last look, and the opportunity to price match. Most of the time they will , but even when they don't, if I can tell they are trying I will give them the business. I won't if the dollar figure is substantial but if we're close I personally make the choice to support our vendors.

That being said I like free markets so I like information to be more open. The window regulator that got this whole thing started is interesting in and of it self. Dodge engineered a terrible part that fails left and right. The fact that any member is having to go out and replace these even at the new and improved cost bothers me. They should have been recalled. So I want our people to replace these as cheap as possible, PERIOD. I personally hope no one makes even a 1 cent profit on this particular part. Upgrades and general routine upkeep are different all together.
That is a great point!

I used the same tactics while shopping for auto/home owner's insurance. I have a few friends in the business. A couple years ago when they first quoted me, their quote was almost 33% higher and I could not justify it. I recently bought a house and had them quote me again, but this time they were only around 10% higher. I chose my friend this time because I know he is extremely knowledgeable/trustworthy.

I'd much rather give my business to someone I know and can trust...aka a supporting vendor. For anyone that is parts shopping, it's beneficial to check with our supporting vendors before purchasing from company xyz for the very reason above. They may not always be the cheapest, but it's nice to know they may be willing to negotiate on price.

[johniew398]

dang!


wellll....I THINK the passenger window was fixed on my Viper, will look in paperwork that came with car.

Yes, Leslie. It was fixed and the regulator was replaced.

[johniew398]

As far as not listing links to non-supporting vendors?

If I were a sponsoring vendor I would ask, "Why should I be a sponsoring vendor if anyone can link to any vendor?"

[Granger73]

It's tough to draw the line. I saw an ad for a GEN2 hardtop on eBay, and posted the link because I had seen several posts with folks looking for one. The post was removed. (Not VOA). I feel this type of post should be allowed. Others maybe not. Tough to draw the line

[FrgMstr]

As far as not listing links to non-supporting vendors?

If I were a sponsoring vendor I would ask, "Why should I be a sponsoring vendor if anyone can link to any vendor?"

I have responded directly to this previously:

The VOA advertising vendor has the ability to become part of the community and act on posting of other prices and parts if he sees fit. And I would suggest that the advertising vendor has much more open ability to leverage this relationship. That is where the value is. If the advertising vendor is just putting up a banner and not interacting with the community as a marketing tool, then the vendor is losing out in that relationship. Being able to announce new products and take part of mod inquiries is a tool that needs to be utilized by the advertiser. Do you allow a non-advertising vendor to come in and do the same? No. But VOA seemingly does as there are part time/hobbyist sellers here that use the VOA forums as a selling tool. Which is worse in that situation? Someone posting an ebay link to a part number, or a VOA member selling new parts out of their garage? I would suggest latter there is much more of a threat to your paying advertisers.

This is business in the internet age. Plopping a banner up and then never becoming involved is not worth what the vendor is paying if they do not use the forums as a selling and educational tool about their products. I made huge sums of money in the late 90s this way and I knew then that it was a business model that would not survive when it comes to very specialized product categories. That business model for communities died in 2001.

This is what sponsoring vendors are paying for in an internet community. They have not purchased the right to strike links and control what the members of the community want to say.

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

.............. The window regulator that got this whole thing started is interesting in and of itself........... I personally hope no one makes even a 1 cent profit on this particular part.


Really? Who would carry them ?


I don't carry the OLD fragile regulator....but I suspect some internetters do !

[ACRucrazy]

I have responded directly to this previously:

The VOA advertising vendor has the ability to become part of the community and act on posting of other prices and parts if he sees fit. And I would suggest that the advertising vendor has much more open ability to leverage this relationship. That is where the value is. If the advertising vendor is just putting up a banner and not interacting with the community as a marketing tool, then the vendor is losing out in that relationship. Being able to announce new products and take part of mod inquiries is a tool that needs to be utilized by the advertiser. Do you allow a non-advertising vendor to come in and do the same? No. But VOA seemingly does as there are part time/hobbyist sellers here that use the VOA forums as a selling tool. Which is worse in that situation? Someone posting an ebay link to a part number, or a VOA member selling new parts out of their garage? I would suggest latter there is much more of a threat to your paying advertisers.

This is business in the internet age. Plopping a banner up and then never becoming involved is not worth what the vendor is paying if they do not use the forums as a selling and educational tool about their products. I made huge sums of money in the late 90s this way and I knew then that it was a business model that would not survive when it comes to very specialized product categories. That business model for communities died in 2001.

This is what sponsoring vendors are paying for in an internet community. They have not purchased the right to strike links and control what the members of the community want to say.

All of your posts make so much sense it's almost comical. :t1236:

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

I have responded directly to this previously:

The VOA advertising vendor has the ability to become part of the community and act on posting of other prices and parts if he sees fit. .............. Do you allow a non-advertising vendor to come in and do the same? No. But VOA seemingly does as there are part time/hobbyist sellers here that use the VOA forums as a selling tool. Which is worse in that situation? Someone posting an ebay link to a part number, or a VOA member selling new parts out of their garage? I would suggest latter there is much more of a threat to your paying advertisers.......


AGREED 110%


The old forum had the same issues with 'closet vendors.' Tony also helped some of them THERE, and knows it well. They might even have a vendor-rep on Alley and/or Flea-Bay, but exercise their 'rights' to free classifieds over at VCA (and VOA) whilst the VC paying sponsors have to PAY for the privilege, and pay for classifieds at VC, even if a paid member. Debating that flaw was futile.

[99RT10]

AGREED 110%


The old forum had the same issues with 'closet vendors.' Tony also helped some of them THERE, and knows it well. They might even have a vendor-rep on Alley and/or Flea-Bay, but exercise their 'rights' to free classifieds over at VCA (and VOA) whilst the VC paying sponsors have to PAY for the privilege, and pay for classifieds at VC, even if a paid member. Debating that flaw was futile.


Life ain't perfect. Neither are you Jon. If this policy is defined, make damn sure to define how much PAYING MEMBERS are allowed to put in the classifieds. And I have no problem talking to anybody, even on Mondays.

[ViperTony]

The old forum had the same issues with 'closet vendors.' Tony also helped some of them THERE, and knows it well.

Yes, I helped make certain they paid the sponsor fee. I don't know if that was implemented before or during your sabbatical over there but they had to pay a sponsor fee to post parts in the classifieds. You were the main reason why that happened as you did a great job policing the forums looking for those closet vendors and flooding my mailbox with posts / Ads pointing them out. Maybe you can help the mods do the same here?

[kblake905]

Wow!! Censorship should not be condoned here but I think this case has been blown way out of proportion. The moderator deleted the link in the best interest of the membership; ie the way I understand it the part number did not match the part needed or was non-existent. She took the time to research it and felt it was in the best interest to delete the link and save us the time of chasing down a non-existent part. I for one appreciate the time volunteered by the moderators, thank you! Thanks to the members who gave thoughtful comments with possible resolutions, rather than complaining that the whole VOA was headed down the same road as the previous club.....
Looking forward to Homecoming and hope to see everyone and personally thanking all those responsible for all their efforts in bringing the club along in such a short time.

[ACRucrazy]

Wow!! Censorship should not be condoned here but I think this case has been blown way out of proportion. The moderator deleted the link in the best interest of the membership; ie the way I understand it the part number did not match the part needed or was non-existent. She took the time to research it and felt it was in the best interest to delete the link and save us the time of chasing down a non-existent part.


Last edited by Viper Girl; at 04:27 AM. Reason: edited to remove non-sponsor link

That was the reason given.


Nothing is beginning, we have a forum policy about non-sponsoring vendors links and sales... As many forums do... period...

[FLATOUT]

DODGE! The manufacturer that put out the defective unit to begin with. It should be warrantied plain and simple.


Really? Who would carry them ?


I don't carry the OLD fragile regulator....but I suspect some internetters do !

[Troublemaker]

I really don't care what the outcome of this is, that's for individuals much more intelligent than me to debate. What I am thrilled to see is that this debate was allowed to take place, that shows progress whether you want to admit it or not.

And I agree with whoever said JonB needs to update his site, when I don't see it on his site, I assume he doesn't carry it. Yet, if you watch close when somebody inquires about a freak part, he almost always has it.

[Timnineside]

Mark I always give a sponsor last look, and the opportunity to price match. Most of the time they will , but even when they don't, if I can tell they are trying I will give them the business. I won't if the dollar figure is substantial but if we're close I personally make the choice to support our vendors.

That being said I like free markets so I like information to be more open. The window regulator that got this whole thing started is interesting in and of it self. Dodge engineered a terrible part that fails left and right. The fact that any member is having to go out and replace these even at the new and improved cost bothers me. They should have been recalled. So I want our people to replace these as cheap as possible, PERIOD. I personally hope no one makes even a 1 cent profit on this particular part. Upgrades and general routine upkeep are different all together.

Exactly this. Also I hadn't a clue sponsors here were anywhere close to pricing I found elsewhere. I've read threads of these things costing $600-$1200 on other sites.

[johniew398]

As far as the question about the regulators: mine went out on the passenger side of my 08 ACR and was repaired under the factory warranty. I should say, repaired under the extended warranty.

[FrgMstr]

You guys do realize that they split the thread up so you could talk about the window regulators in the other thread, right?

http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/4142-My-car-is-for-sale-so-of-course-the-inevitable-happens