Typical Dyno Numbers from Gen 2?

[HardHitter]

Hello All,

As most of you know, I have been looking for a 96/97 BW GTS or a 99 black RT/10. Most of the deals are for "creampuff" cars (2000-2002). The primary reason why I'm looking for the specific years is because of:

#1: Forged internals - Although I plan to modify the car with minor mods, I like having the option to add FI later down the line without the need to severely build the motor (extra cost that I'd rather incur upfront in the price of the car)

#2: 708 cam - Who doesn't like the lumpy idle!?

I had a few quick question:

#1: On a totally stock Gen 2 car, what are the typical dyno numbers?
#2: What are the aftermarket options for cam upgrades? Do most people keep the 708 cam?
#3: Do "creampuff" cars actually swap in 708 cams (is there even a power difference?) or do they go with an aftermarket option?
#4: If I were to keep the car NA and modify by doing headers and full exhaust, what are the typical dyno numbers? What if I add heads? An aftermarket cam?
#5: If I were to add FI, what is a conservative power range people would expect with just the FI (turbo or SC) and exhaust (not touching heads/cam)

Lastly, is there a "one stop shop" type site where you all order your parts from? I'm trying to price out everything.

[Indy]

Usually, stock Gen2s pull low 400s on the dyno. Here's an article by Motor Trend that dynoed a 2000 RT10 at 425 rwhp, and 460 ftlbs at the wheels.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/112_0008_2000_viper_cobra_r_and_corvette/viewall.html

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t244/Indyjones007/imagemotortrendcom-f-images-10013397-0008_MTRP_21_I_MUSC-C_zpsad983b63.jpg

[XSnake]

Buy mine and not spend another dime on mods. Way cheaper in the long run. My car has dyno'd 560hp/540tq NA.

[HardHitter]

Buy mine and not spend another dime on mods. Way cheaper in the long run. My car has dyno'd 560hp/540tq NA.

I've looked at your car but with how modified it is, I don't think I'll be able to pass CA smog.

[MADMAX]

Two years ago I fitted gen 3 heads and belanger headers and got 590 at the flywheel with a stock 708 cam on my 96 GTS NA. There are significant gains to be had but it's not an easy bolt-on job.

It was a big project so changing the cam would have made it even bigger, which is why I kept with the 708. HOWEVER, I now find myself with a damaged cam lobe on #10 so the cam and lifters are being replaced - engine strip down again.

In hindsight I might have done different two yrs ago - should have at least checked the cam gear and lifter conditions while the heads were off.

This stuff is great fun if you have the time and ability to do it, so enjoy and good luck.

[James430]

Hardhitter....I had the same questions you have on my 01 RT/10...Check out my signature and it should answer alot of your questions.The place that did my mods does alot of Vipers and around 400 RWHP is the norm as Indy said for the gen 2's.....I was happy with my mods because it put me right at gen 4 numbers.I did alot of shopping around for the parts but saved alot of $.As for the lumpy Idol you will love it ...The whole car shakes when stopped...Almost as good as s$X!!!!....as you can see the extra 107 hp is fun...For what these mods cost for parts and labor wasn't cheap...the going rate for a supercharger install with headers is about 15 t0 16 grand around here and depending on boost you can get an extra 150 hp from your stock motor...I think thats pretty close....

[HardHitter]

Two years ago I fitted gen 3 heads and belanger headers and got 590 at the flywheel with a stock 708 cam on my 96 GTS NA. There are significant gains to be had but it's not an easy bolt-on job.

It was a big project so changing the cam would have made it even bigger, which is why I kept with the 708. HOWEVER, I now find myself with a damaged cam lobe on #10 so the cam and lifters are being replaced - engine strip down again.

In hindsight I might have done different to yrs ago - should have at least checked the cam gear and lifter conditions while the heads were off.

This stuff is great fun if you have the time and ability to do it, so enjoy and good luck.

This would be my plan. If I were to find a stock "creampuff" car, I'd likely be looking at the "bolt ons" first

- Headers
- Full exhaust
Estimated cost? $3-$4k?

If a stock gen 2 puts down 425 to the wheels, then I'm assuming that would free up another 20-25rwhp to push it to 450rwhp. Regardless, since it will be a cruiser, I'm looking more for low end torque numbers than high peak HP numbers.

The next phase would be a "major" phase and I'm thinking costs around $8-$10k

- Cam
- Heads
- Skip those and go straight supercharger

[HardHitter]

Hardhitter....I had the same questions you have on my 01 RT/10...Check out my signature and it should answer alot of your questions.The place that did my mods does alot of Vipers and around 400 RWHP is the norm as Indy said for the gen 2's.....I was happy with my mods because it put me right at gen 4 numbers.I did alot of shopping around for the parts but saved alot of $.As for the lumpy Idol you will love it ...The whole car shakes when stopped...Almost as good as #$X!!!!

James, your car sounds amazing. Are you able to provide an estimated breakdown of the parts cost? Again, is there one place you all go for a "one stop shop" to buy the parts?

[XSnake]

I've looked at your car but with how modified it is, I don't think I'll be able to pass CA smog.

If you added cats back into it and ran it on the stock ECU (which is still in the car) I think you'd be surprised.

[slitherv10]

If you added cats back into it and ran it on the stock ECU (which is still in the car) I think you'd be surprised.

Why don't you add the cats back and chow him a pass result and maybe you'll have a sale...BINGO !!

[XSnake]

Why don't you add the cats back and chow him a pass result and maybe you'll have a sale...BINGO !!

We do not have emissions testing in Fl

[HardHitter]

We do not have emissions testing in Fl

I wish CA followed the same haha. But I don't think you understand how strict CA smog laws are. EVERYTHING needs a CARB#, even a small thing such as an air filter. You'd think they'd be lenient, but they've only gotten worse.

[XSnake]

I wish CA followed the same haha. But I don't think you understand how strict CA smog laws are. EVERYTHING needs a CARB#, even a small thing such as an air filter. You'd think they'd be lenient, but they've only gotten worse.

K&N's have a carb # don't they? You would need cats and to take the AEM off (all of 15 min.) You can even tune a special carb map into the factory ECU with the SCT I have for it.

[slitherv10]

We do not have emissions testing in Fl

Your dam lucky then.

I know up here in Toronto, we have emissions as strict as CA.

I wanted to pull the trigger on a TT car last year until I found out how difficult it would be to pass. Even a highly moded car would be difficult.

Now you can own a car and have it fail every year and get a conditional pass and pay 200.00 and away you go for 2 years until its time again and you do the same. Pay the fee and move on, but, if you buy a car,, it must pass emissions the first time before new ownership can take place.

[MADMAX]

The boltons have limited effect on there own - the bottleneck is the gen2 heads - the key is improving flow throught them by porting (like James has done) and fit bigger valves (typically gen3 heads) - I flow tested my gen3 ported heads (with inlet manifold and exhaust headers) and still the pinch point was the head.

[slitherv10]

I wish CA followed the same haha. But I don't think you understand how strict CA smog laws are. EVERYTHING needs a CARB#, even a small thing such as an air filter. You'd think they'd be lenient, but they've only gotten worse.

Save thousands on buying a fully modded car like MTGTS's and then spend hundreds making it pass. Not a bad trade off really.

[gfviperman]

My 2002 GTS bone stock + K&Ns on a 90 degree day: 429 hp ... 468 tq

[HardHitter]

Save thousands on buying a fully modded car like MTGTS's and then spend hundreds making it pass. Not a bad trade off really.

It is different here in California. If you don't pass smog, you get flagged and have to go to the smog referee which is even more strict. From there, you have two options, fix everything or pay the fine which is typically a couple thousand dollars. You will likely continue to be flagged in the system and if you get pulled over by the cops, you get sent to the smog ref again to fix it or pay another fine.

It is not worth the risk.

[XSnake]

It is not worth the risk.

understandable

[slitherv10]

Dam that is worse than our emissions. We may be making things easier on us in the near future where as you guys in CA look like your getting it with no lubrication

[Ron]

Stock 1996 GTS, 436 RWHP & 486 RWT corrected on a Dynojet - Nothing but K&N's & smooth tubes

[RTTTTed]

Different dynos get different readings. Different adjustments give different readings. Gen 2 are usually around 420whp stock.

My 98 GTS had a Roe supercharger kit at 8psi, water/meth injection, Hi flow cats and Cat back exhuast. I also had a modified airbox with smooth tubes and K&N filters. 598whp and 644rwtq. Roe blower is not approved in Calif.

My 2001 Sapphire GTS was 10psi, pistons, 708 cam, 1.7 rockers, headers, cat delete, bigger TBs, K&N cones with a custom airbox. 690whp before the heads were ported. These mods also require better rear axlesand a clutch, short shifter, etc. Roe blower not approved for Calif. added w/m inj and hp went to about 720whp

I bought a 2000 GTS AXCR with a Corsa exhaust, HF Cats, stock engine with Paxton supercharger (Calif approved) at 560whp. Nitrous Oxide was added to get to 804whp.

I bought a 99 TT GTS from Texas with 1100whp at 10psi and 1500+whp capable that would need registering outside of Calif. I do know that Dan Cragin has built some750whp Paxton cars that drive around down there at 750whp that must be approved.

Your car could easily go to 560whp with only a Paxton blower.

[CSXT802]

When I got my 2000 gts It had smooth tubes and the mopar performance borla 2 muffler cat back on it. I deleted the cats and dynoed it for a base line of 406 whp and 446 ft lbs. Air fuel ratios were real rich low to mid 11's wot.
I ordered an sct tuner from unleashed tuning with 3 tunes on it. Their 94 octane tune bought the power up to 426 whp and 468 ft lbs. $350 well spent.
Next step was a pair of eBay svs knock off headers I bought off someone on viper alley. Got the headers with o2 extensions for $350. Once I got the headers I took them to a local weld shop and had them tig weld the inside of the flange to the header tubes. That cost me a whole $60 to do all 10. I also added a used set of stock gen 3 rockers that cost $200. That and a revised tune for the new bolt ons. The final results were 445 WHP and 490 ft lbs to the wheels. I used the same dyno each time so the gains are true as could be.

[James430]

On the vipers the HP rating is to the crank....do the math,subtract 15%for stick and 18% for autos to get real close to the actual rwhp?....Here are 2 Dyno sheets from last weekend when I got the car out...You can see the blue line is really nasty looking for air/ fuel...and with smooth tubes and K&N filters base line was around 405 rwhp....the first run with mods and the Sec tune got me up to 491 Rwhp.....the next sheet is the 3rd run with a little more sec tuning up to 505 rwhp...the last one ill post when he sends it to me it's 512.73 rwhp....it was neat watching what he could do with the sec tune.

[CSXT802]

Here are my dyno graphs base line to where it is now.

[Next Phase]

Check out the dyno day thread in the NC region section. There were a number of stock and modified Gen 2s. As mentioned, 405 to 425 rwhp and 450 to 460 rwtq bone stock is what I have seen on a Dynojet SAE.

My 2001 with M&M headers, high flows, exhaust and smooth tubes put down 433 rwhp and 473 rwtq.

[viperr]

I have enjoyed seeing all the information about mods and their gains, so I thought that I would contribute a step by step report of what I have done over the past 7 years while modifying my 1999 RT-10 in stages. I have generally used the same Dynojet here in town, running between 60 and 70 degrees at sea level with our typical moist air. My numbers may differ from many, but it gives a step by step record of power gains after specific mods. I also need to say that my car currently has 101,000 miles on it.It has Belanger cat back ehaust and K&N filters with smooth tubes.
I bought the car in 2007 with 58,000 miles on it and ran it on a dyno after I had it 2 weeks. It had a couple of spots where the curve dropped and it pulled 406 HP and 444 TQ. Iimmediately replaced the wires and plugs and the car ran better. In 2009 I went to a Mustang Dyno and it pulled 428 HP and 487 TQ. In 2011, after installing high flow cats and 3:55 gears I went to my local Dynojet and ran 430 HP and 480 TQ. I did not apply a correction factor for the different gearing at this time. I did a pull on the same Dynojet in 85 degree weather and lost 20 HP as you would expect. I 2013 I installed Belanger headers and the pull was 443 HP and 478 TQ on a cool day which was a 15 HP gain with the headers which sounds logical. Recently I was able to afford some T&D roller rockers and ported cylinder heads from Roe. When I returned to the Dyno for a day of tuning they were able to produce 467 HP 504 TQ which equates to 483 HP and 522 TQ after applying the correction factor for the 3:55 gears (+ 3.5%). The heads and roller rockers appear to have added 40 corrected horsepower which also seems like an expected gain. The heads added a nasty sound and the low end torque gain is very noticeable on track. I am sure that others may not agree with all of my numbers, but I tried to use a methodical approach and good record keeping to document what happened on my Viper. The numbers look good, but the noticeable performance gains are what I notice, and that is why I have done the mods. I am sure others may have a difference of opinion on my numbers, but they are the best data I have available.

[James430]

Interesting.....Sounds like your numbers are about average....I wasn't aware of the % conversion for the gearing.?.So if you know your rwhp and have stock gears and replace with say 373 gears just add 3.7% and that's your new rwhp?

[Troublemaker]

Interesting.....Sounds like your numbers are about average....I wasn't aware of the % conversion for the gearing.?.So if you know your rwhp and have stock gears and replace with say 373 gears just add 3.7% and that's your new rwhp?

While there should definitely be a correction factor, I don't see it being that linear.

One thing I would like to see is different generations Dyno Graphs overlaid. I don't car about the number as much as the shape of the curve.

[viperr]

I wasn't given the conversion on other ratios, but the 3.5% has been determined on several dynos in the past. It makes sense that the physics problem of accelerating a known mass to a certain speed would be different with that gearing as the car accelerates a shorter time and does not hit as high of a top end velocity as the 3:07 gears.