Checking Oil On 2013 Viper Weird Readings

[06SRTCoupe]

Okay, I've owned several Vipers (Gen's 2, 3, and 4...modded and stock) Vette's, and LS F-bodies. I have never seen anything like this before.

I swapped the oil cooler lines on my Gen V Viper. No issues and pretty easy/straight forward. While I was there, I changed the oil. This is my first oil change in a Gen V. Here is my issue...

When I put the dipstick back in with the "safe" range facing me, it reads almost an 1/8 of an inch higher than the max safe range. HOWEVER, on the other side of the dipstick, it reads within the safe range (close to the top of it). Soooo...I turn the dipstick around and measure it again. The readings are consistent.

The bottom line here is, there are two different readings depending on which side of the dipstick you are looking at.

My question is, which side is the legit reading? If I go with one side, the amount of oil in the car is perfect...right where it should be. If I look at the other side, then it's almost an 1/8th of an inch too much oil.

Looking for facts and not opinions (not trying to be a jerk just want real world exp or expert analysis). Thanks.

[Lawineer]

Yes.

[StrokerAce]

Yes.

Best answer.

If the topside is over and bottom is in the middle, you're good.

[ForTehNguyen]

ive found that if you insert the dipstick with the hash marks facing the back of the car, i get the reading on the correct side.

[01sapphirebob]

I know this has been talked about for many years at this point. I would do a search on this site and see what comes up. I seem to remember FCA changed the dipstick in ‘14 or maybe ‘15? Not 100% sure which year.

[ViperGeorge]

The dipstick was changed either after model year 13 or early in model year 14. You can tell which one you have easily by seeing which way the yellow loop with "Engine" printed on it aligns. Assume for a moment that the windshield is flat and perpendicular to the doors. If the loop is parallel to this hypothetical windshield it is the new style. The older style sits at like a 35 degree angle to the windshield. Also you should be able to read the word "Engine" from the front of the car, it should not be upside down such that it would be read from the windshield.

Although I've posted this many, many times and many people disagree with this, the oil level should be read 2-5 minutes after shutting off a warmed up engine. Checking it cold could result in a false high reading. This is in the manual and I have it directly from the engineer who worked on the oil system.

[StrokerAce]

My 13 has the dipstick puller ring parallel with the windshield and it goes in with the letters up, or down.

[ViperJon]

Here we go......

[Docmartin]

This car has really forced me to develop a compulsive oil checking habit. There are many threads on this but I'll share my thoughts. YMMV.

ViperGeorge is correct that you should check it a few min after shutting off a fully warmed engine. This is also a pain in the ass, but I started doing this every time I got gas and always went with the lowest reading. I also started reading the oil cold before my first start up. After doing both for a long time I just switched to reading cold. From my experience checking it cold always reads a little higher than when I check the oil the proper way. So, I always aim for the lowest reading to be a little bit above the highest mark.

If you're low on oil you will notice it on the oil pressure gauge when WOT. Not something I want to experience so I try to maintain being on the higher side.

[ViperGeorge]

My 13 has the dipstick puller ring parallel with the windshield and it goes in with the letters up, or down.

It will go in either way, however, it should be put in so as to read "Engine" from the front of the car. It was explained to me that the dipstick goes into the pan at an angle and that is why readings can be different from one side to the other. If your puller ring is parallel to the windshield it is the newer style, I believe. Could be they changed the design late in 2013 or if you are not the first owner someone before you could have changed it.

These oil threads always go sideways for some reason so I don't think I will post any more on it. Invariably someone gets heated over the right way to check oil. Personally I will stick with what the manual says to do.

[blingnoring]

Here we go......

haha you said it mister

[Jack B]

If interested, I did detailed analysis (with pics) of the the oil pan and the dip-stick, the search function should bring it up

[Steve M]

https://driveviper.com/forums/threads/27212-A-Technical-Understanding-of-the-Gen5-Oil-Level

https://driveviper.com/forums/threads/15980-Oil-Level-Reality-versus-Misinformation

[ViperJon]

Okay I'm in.....:) If you check your warm oil after five minutes as the manual specifies and it is GOOD and clearly in the safe zone you then know that you have the correct amount of oil in the car, is that agreed upon? The oil level is correct.

The next day you go outside and check the oil level with the engine stone cold. Now the oil is slightly higher as it has ALL drained back into the oil pan. You now see where the cold measurement clearly is.... agreed? It is most likely an 1/8" to a 1/4" higher than the warm measurement.

So what makes the cold measurement invalid going forward since you KNOW the warm measurement was valid? And I might add....a hell of a lot easier to read than a smeary hot read. Anyone?

[Lawineer]

Okay I'm in.....:) If you check your warm oil after five minutes as the manual specifies and it is GOOD and clearly in the safe zone you then know that you have the correct amount of oil in the car, is that agreed upon? The oil level is correct.

The next day you go outside and check the oil level with the engine stone cold. Now the oil is slightly higher as it has ALL drained back into the oil pan. You now see where the cold measurement clearly is.... agreed? It is most likely an 1/8" to a 1/4" higher than the warm measurement.

So what makes the cold measurement invalid going forward since you KNOW the warm measurement was valid? And I might add....a hell of a lot easier to read than a smeary hot read. Anyone?

Hot oil is considerably less dense (it expands).

[Old School]

Hot oil is considerably less dense (it expands).

Yep


45610

45611

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/temperature-density-petroleum-lubricating-oil-lubricant-volume-correction-ASTM-D1250-d_1943.html

These show ~5% volume change between 50F and 200F, which translates to ~1/2 quart in a Viper.

[ViperJon]

Hot oil is considerably less dense (it expands).

Irrelevant to topic.

[Lawineer]

Irrelevant to topic.

Go fill a pothalfway with olive oil.

Stick a skewer in there and mark the level of the oil.

Bring it to 220 degrees.

Check the olive oil level with the skewer again.


Remove 1/2" thick ribeye from fridge and flour twice. Fry for 3 minutes. Let rest. Add bourbon gravy to taste.

[StrokerAce]

I always let a steak get to room temp before cooking. Helps to ensure it won't get tough.

[finalleaf]

I always let a steak get to room temp before cooking. Helps to ensure it won't get tough.

grill or castiron

[StrokerAce]

grill or castiron

If this is a question I have to answer with either. :) I prefer a ribeye (and most other steaks) on the grill but a NY Strip in the cast iron.

[Lawineer]

I always let a steak get to room temp before cooking. Helps to ensure it won't get tough.

I agree, especially for grilling, but with deep frying, I want to keep the middle cool as possible so the outside can get a crust.

Also, the preferred way to check your oil is to put a tomahawk (or just a thick ribeye) on the smoker for 45 min, pat dry and then sear over blazing hot charcoals. Then, when you're done, check your oil level.

It's my favorite way to make a steak (and check oil).

[Nth Moto]

Okay I'm in.....:) If you check your warm oil after five minutes as the manual specifies and it is GOOD and clearly in the safe zone you then know that you have the correct amount of oil in the car, is that agreed upon? The oil level is correct.

The next day you go outside and check the oil level with the engine stone cold. Now the oil is slightly higher as it has ALL drained back into the oil pan. You now see where the cold measurement clearly is.... agreed? It is most likely an 1/8" to a 1/4" higher than the warm measurement.

So what makes the cold measurement invalid going forward since you KNOW the warm measurement was valid? And I might add....a hell of a lot easier to read than a smeary hot read. Anyone?

Is the engine going to potentially cause itself damage due to lack of lubrication sitting off and cold, or running and warm?

The only oil level that matters is how much is in the pan available to the pump pickup when demand is highest, and this will be several quarts less than what is in the pan static (IE, how much quantity you've last filled it with) when the engine is running. Add to this the oil drainback holes in the OEM head gaskets are a very unique, layered design which intentionally restrict drainback speed to keep the valvetrain "bathed" during high G loads and you have potential for quite varying readings on the stick hot vs cold.

There are several other impactful things to this also IMO but the above is the major contributor, but any of you should err to the side of overfull vs under. I promise you, nothing really cares about having too much in it compared to not enough.

Just my $.02, carry on.

[Lawineer]

Are OEM cranks knife edged? To my understanding the only really bad thing about overfill (to a reasonable degree) is foaming up the oil.

But I agree. I overfill all my (wet sump) cars by about half a quart.

[ViperSRT]

Are OEM cranks knife edged? To my understanding the only really bad thing about overfill (to a reasonable degree) is foaming up the oil.

Over filling is not so mundane as it sounds. A small amount isn’t an issue for most engines as most are designed for up to a quart overfill without serious consequences. Beyond that serious problems can occur. Foaming itself isn’t the issue. Entrained air, called aeration, is a potentially serious problem. Above 5% aeration and hydraulic lifters (lash adjusters) will become problematic. Causing increasing valve closing velocities that can ultimately cause the loss of a valve. Above 10% and bearings may start to fail. The failure mode is generally bearing fatigue (looks like chunks missing or pitting of the bearings) due to bearing temperature increases as aerated oil acts poorly as a thermal conductor. I have witnessed those failure modes many times over the years.
Beyond the potential issues, over filling will result in performance decrease as oil in crankshaft windage robs power. A positive for dry sumps is the reduction in windage losses.

[bullitt2735]

I believe on the Bondurant cars that they overfilled by a quart to help with oil starvation on the track so I wouldn't worry about overfilling a small amount

[Nth Moto]

Over filling is not so mundane as it sounds. A small amount isn’t an issue for most engines as most are designed for up to a quart overfill without serious consequences. Beyond that serious problems can occur. Foaming itself isn’t the issue. Entrained air, called aeration, is a potentially serious problem. Above 5% aeration and hydraulic lifters (lash adjusters) will become problematic. Causing increasing valve closing velocities that can ultimately cause the loss of a valve. Above 10% and bearings may start to fail. The failure mode is generally bearing fatigue (looks like chunks missing or pitting of the bearings) due to bearing temperature increases as aerated oil acts poorly as a thermal conductor. I have witnessed those failure modes many times over the years.
Beyond the potential issues, over filling will result in performance decrease as oil in crankshaft windage robs power. A positive for dry sumps is the reduction in windage losses.

You're very correct in those potential issues, but with all due respect, there's about a 99.5% (I'm being facetious here) chance of failure if the engine is too low on oil and ran even mildly aggressively.

I'm aware of your background and respect and appreciate you chiming in highly. We've also worked very hard over here to get to a point of comfortably utilizing the OEM (based) wet sump system on these engines at up to, and in some cases above, 7700 RPM and with 3X the power per cylinder that the factory configuration has to contend with. It's been a fun and enlightening journey, and yes, the cross drilled crank remains in function. :) One thing is for certain, it will all unravel quickly if there isn't enough oil.

[Lawineer]

Over filling is not so mundane as it sounds. A small amount isn’t an issue for most engines as most are designed for up to a quart overfill without serious consequences. Beyond that serious problems can occur. Foaming itself isn’t the issue. Entrained air, called aeration, is a potentially serious problem. Above 5% aeration and hydraulic lifters (lash adjusters) will become problematic. Causing increasing valve closing velocities that can ultimately cause the loss of a valve. Above 10% and bearings may start to fail. The failure mode is generally bearing fatigue (looks like chunks missing or pitting of the bearings) due to bearing temperature increases as aerated oil acts poorly as a thermal conductor. I have witnessed those failure modes many times over the years.
Beyond the potential issues, over filling will result in performance decrease as oil in crankshaft windage robs power. A positive for dry sumps is the reduction in windage losses.

For sure, and that's what I meant by foaming up the oil. Aeration is the correct term. If the crank is knife edged, it (presumably) splashes oil around less.

[Fatman2006]

Not sure if it helps at all, but for what it's worth. I drink Corona with my breakfast this morning. Said event was held at 12:38.

[Martin]

I've always wondered about over-filling by around a quart to be safe. On most of my cars, that's what I do to just add a margin of safety - and since the Viper oil pan is so shallow, it would seem logical to put an extra quart in and be safe.

That said, way back in the day when we had full serve stations, my Dad had an experience where the attendant was checking his oil and he short-sticked the dipstick. He told my Dad that he was about three quarts low, and my Dad told him to go ahead and add them. Then, when we were on our way to Tahoe, and going up a steep incline, the car started smoking like crap. Long story short, somehow the oil blew out the piston rings and that was that... No skiing that day for me, and my Dad was super pissed when he found out what happened.