New owner 2 days and 70 miles worth of driving impressions

[LCatGA]

Just got my 2008 convertible delivered yesterday and was busy molesting it for a last 2 days. Weather here in NY was sunny in mid 50s. Tires are a bit stiff given their 2015 date codes. Car is spotless and in better condition than many 2-4 year old cars I got in the past - You can tell what it was meticulously maintained both appearance and mechanically. Given the tires were mounted in 15 I can tell what car was not raced hard since then . I think I did more damage to them in 2 days then previous owner in 8 years :)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

The only thing maintenance related is rotors will need to be replaced eventually.
Lets knock on the wood and hope this findings will not change :)

Now I would like to discuss my initial findings and talk about my feelings after brief but intensive molestation sessions. I understand what better protection(rubber) probably would lead to the better feeling :)
Car makes me feel very bipolar. On one hand it leaves a lot to be desired (logical left part of my brain) but on another hand it have tickled my right part of the brain like no car ever did. I'd call it love from the first G.
So let's start with appearances, etc. Many people actively dislike interior and call it cheap, etc so I was assuming what I'm going to have a problem with it especially after 599GTB, AMG with Designeo packages, all custom interior GT2(can you say carbon fiber wrapped in Alcantara, wrapped in CF, with more Alcantara on top, sprinkled by CF) and Bentley Supersports. Much to my and my SO surprise we both really liked the interior. Yes it's spartan but unlike Corvette it does not scream cheap, more like well-made and very tasteful. It actualy reminds me a lot interior on Mclaren MP4 somehow. And love Venom Metallica Red and H bar wheels. All check. Passionately hate audio system for having to burn regular CDs but sound is surprisingly good(considering engine noise). If I can get it to play MP3s I might leave it unmolested. I'm a big guy at 6'4" and 250 but somehow, I have plenty of space in the cockpit and sit really well. Love ergonomics and everything just make sense. Very found of transmission but might put a shorter handle on it. Yes, gear is sparce but they are so wonderfully positive and easy to find and the whole experience is just super intuitive. Moving on to the clutch - my first complaint of the day. While being rather light for me(I'm used to heavy race clutches) it has way too much travel for my needs. Not a big deal and I'm sure it makes it easier for people without good 3rd pedal skills but for an experienced driver it takes away some time and razor like precision you can have. Rev matching is super easy and clutch functionality is spotless. Again word intuitive comes to mind. Braking system is nice but nothing to write mama home about. No fault, very linear and rather fade resistant but comes short of Dedicated AP racing kits which is expected. Moving on to suspension. - Me like it :)))))) It's slightly too bouncy(can definitely use some progressive springs) but very communicative with very little body roll and wonderful steering feedback. Yes a car is a bit neurotic on the street but once pushed it just digs in. It definitely exceeded my expectations by wide margin. Now LSD on it just plain sucks compared to Quaife/Wavetrack. I lost rear end twice under hard acceleration in 1st gear, and under acceleration it's just very neurotic. Not a happy camper at all. Also transition to loosing rear end happens without any warning sign. Compared to high whp GT2(also no traction control, etc) it just happens. GT2 communicates back to you letting you know it's about to rape you. And with good LSD a way to get out of the tailspin is to give it more gas, here it just snaps at you. Now my biggest gripe with a car is a power. Or luck of it :(((. It does move but acceleration is rather underwhelming for what it is. Granted I'm used to a cars with as much as twice more HP per lbs and loads of TQ but to floor it in second gear from 3000 rpm to redline and feel underwhelmed. It was very close to my CLK 63 cabrio, so close what I actually had to go home and try it out. CLK lays about 520-540 whp on mustang and redlines at 7100, automatic transmission. both were on 93 Octane. Bottom line it feels like car can use another 200 Hp(which I know is unobtainum without major engine work) and lower gearing. Now Set of headers, full intake path and ECU with 3.77 gears might wake it up

Now as im done with technical part - lets go to emotional side of my brain.
LOVE IT. Absolutely love it. Just fits like a glow and makes me very alive. Raw and somewhat unrefined, psychotic enough to keep interest up but not crazy its already became my most favorite car in my stable. It's not as boring and videdogamish as McLaren , much livelier and loose than Ferrari and not as insanely hard and involving to drive as GT2 or my twin turbo Vett. After 30 minutes in GT2 you feel like you have been raped, here you feel like you had very passionate session of love making. Yes you back might have been scratched but you have that silly smirk on your face. Yeas all above mentioned cars will outrun it on racetrack(Ferrari has better power delivery and suspension were completely reworked, Vett has full racing suspension setup, MClaren has been heavy moded and GT2 was reworked completely, engine, Alpha Tial turbos, drivetrain with LSD, 3 way Motons, RSR speck suspension and buch of everything else inclusive of heavy diet) but none of them are thaty much fun on the streets. And AMGs just don't have it's precision and liveliness. So long live the King ahem.. Snake


:)))))

Need to work on more power, gearing a bit less nervousness in suspension and better LSD

[quickster2]

Have you flushed the clutch fluid? That may help if you have not although it is a bit of a PIA to do. There are a couple of "short cuts" but they take a bit more time and more fluid. Search this forum. Newer tires will improve your hook up but you know that already. The 2010 had different gearing so you may want to investigate that. Good luck.

[Aevus]

welcome LcatGA


Car is spotless and in better condition than many 2-4 year old cars I got in the past - You can tell what it was meticulously maintained both appearance and mechanically.

That's a big plus. Lots of beaten snakes out there....



Now LSD on it just plain sucks compared to Quaife/Wavetrack. I lost rear end twice under hard acceleration in 1st gear, and under acceleration it's just very neurotic. Not a happy camper at all. Also transition to loosing rear end happens without any warning sign. Compared to high whp GT2(also no traction control, etc) it just happens. GT2 communicates back to you letting you know it's about to rape you.

Friendly advice here: don't expect too much from a Quaife or Wavetrack, they won't suddenly make the car act as a GT2. Two very different beasts here.

1. fresh new sticky tires with air pressure on the lower side (27-29psi cold on my ACRs)
2. new alignement
3. be gentle when the weather is still closer to winter than summer ;-)

[Aevus]

bone stock, right?

about the lack of power felt, I guess the 3.07 gears and throttle by wire are not helping..

[Aevus]

Moving on to suspension. - Me like it ))))) It's slightly too bouncy(can definitely use some progressive springs) but very communicative with very little body roll and wonderful steering feedback. Yes a car is a bit neurotic on the street but once pushed it just digs in. It definitely exceeded my expectations by wide margin.

You're officially the very first new Viper owner in history to be in love with the stock suspension but unimpressed by the engine power.

Hehehe just kidding, it's a good news that you like the suspension/chassis. Took me a full year and lots of mods to be satisfied...

[efnfast]

The drive by wire on these cars is absolutely horrible.

I bought my 08 without test driving it. First time i drove it the throttle response sucked and felt like it was down several hundred horsepower. Few more drives and I remained disappointed - if I'd test driven it first I definitely wouldn't have bought it because of that.

I read about TKO's throttle controller - all gen 4 owners rave about how it feels like it added several hundred HP. I figured it was just placebo effect, but what the hell, it's cheap enough to try
https://tkomotorsports.com/product/2008-2017-pro-competition-viper-adjustable-max-throttle-response-kit/

And honest-to-god after I plugged it in it did feel like it added several hundred HP. Throttle response feels exactly like it should for a V10 viper.

TLDR - it's not the engine, it's the neutered drive-by-wire; install TKO throttle controller and fix that problem.

[Lost me beer]

I disagree. My G5 is drive by wire and feels stupid fast and responsive. I know what he is talking about in the power dept tho. My G3 feels “fast,” but my G5 is. A huge diff. Even the delivery is crazy different between the 2. The G3 is a great touring car, whereas the 5 just plain feels like a race car.
I would suggest a drive in a Gen5 if ur going to compare ur other cars…not an apples to apples comparo with the 3.
Glad u love it however. I am not implying my 5 is better, just very different.
Troy

[Aevus]

Troy, I think the dbw issue is just with the gen4 not the gen5

[efnfast]

I disagree. My G5 is drive by wire and feels stupid fast and responsive. I know what he is talking about in the power dept tho. My G3 feels “fast,” but my G5 is. A huge diff. Even the delivery is crazy different between the 2. The G3 is a great touring car, whereas the 5 just plain feels like a race car.
I would suggest a drive in a Gen5 if ur going to compare ur other cars…not an apples to apples comparo with the 3.
Glad u love it however. I am not implying my 5 is better, just very different.
Troy

We're talking about gen 4 DBW not gen 5 ... and gen 3 was cable throttle .... neither of which are relevant here.

[LCatGA]

I ordered TKO DBW booster so we shall see but I'm not talking about throttle response here. Unless you telling me what flooring it in 2nd gear and observe acceleration from 3000 rpm to redline is gauged by throttle response. By seat of the pants feeling car is in the high 11s which is where it should be. But so is my CLK or daily driver Cayenne Turbo S (DV valves, downpipes and very aggressive tune). And as a platform Viper is much more capable :). I would love if the car would have enough power to be a nice mid 10 seconder.

[LCatGA]

BTW, drove car today on some backroads and then took my Cayenne through the same paces. Mine has stock suspension(next to impossible to change), PDDC set of summer Youkos on light 20 spiders and Carbon ceramic breaks(they somehow help with both handling and responsiveness, lighter rotors perhaps). Downpipes, slightly higher fuel pressure, and tune with peak 21 psi of boost, probably under 700Hp crank but close to/over 700 lbs/ft TQ and about 4600 lbs weight. Granted I'm very familiar and much more liberal with Cayenne but right now conclusion is Viper feels much faster than it is :( Need to spend much more time on it because right now me in Viper would not outrun me in the boat towing baby hauler by much. :(. Need lower Gearing/ more TQ for that.

[Steve M]

I ordered TKO DBW booster so we shall see but I'm not talking about throttle response here.

I can save you some money.

Just press the pedal farther - the effect would be the same.

[Aevus]

I ordered TKO DBW booster so we shall see but I'm not talking about throttle response here. Unless you telling me what flooring it in 2nd gear and observe acceleration from 3000 rpm to redline is gauged by throttle response. By seat of the pants feeling car is in the high 11s which is where it should be. But so is my CLK or daily driver Cayenne Turbo S (DV valves, downpipes and very aggressive tune). And as a platform Viper is much more capable :). I would love if the car would have enough power to be a nice mid 10 seconder.

that story will end with two turbos

[efnfast]

I can save you some money.

Just press the pedal farther - the effect would be the same.

disagree - prior to the TKO throttle response was piss poor regardless of how much I pressed the pedal. I was convinced at WOT the TBs weren't even fully opening. And yes I'm aware that it's basically just re-interpreting the signal from the pedal, but at least on mine it's a night and day difference.

[LCatGA]

I can save you some money.

Just press the pedal farther - the effect would be the same.

I figured that but I would like to try it out. Typically throttle response boxes do not work for me, but maybe speed of opening is compromised.

[Aevus]

You obviously have an idea or two about what big power is, so just go straight for that:

https://calvo-motorsports.com/gen-iv-cm1600/


hahahaha
*diabolical laugh*

[LCatGA]

disagree - prior to the TKO throttle response was piss poor regardless of how much I pressed the pedal. I was convinced at WOT the TBs weren't even fully opening. And yes I'm aware that it's basically just re-interpreting the signal from the pedal, but at least on mine it's a night and day difference.
It might be possible what DBW does not open TBs 100%. W209 CLK 63 did 80% opening compared to SL 63 or Black Series but AMG did it for pure marketing reasons - to claim different HP on essentially same platform with exact same engine, same exact intake and basically same exhaust and drivetrain. They basically detuned CLK as compared to more expensive cars. In turbo world they would have ran a different boost levels(Cayenne Turbo vs Turbo S), here they just limited TB opening. But since Viper did not compete with different models inside Dodge and was essentially top of the food chain I highly doubt they would detune car like that and do not let TB to open up 100%. Would be also picked up in tunes - weather HP or Arrow PCM for a good and easy 40-50HP right off the bat. Also Gen 4 dyno numbers do not support such "conspiracy" theory

[Aevus]

dyno numbers?


you missed an interesting discussion lately

https://driveviper.com/forums/threads/30585-stock-gen-5-on-dyno-Hoonigan?p=466629&viewfull=1#post466629

[LCatGA]

You obviously have an idea or two about what big power is, so just go straight for that:

https://calvo-motorsports.com/gen-iv-cm1600/


hahahaha
*diabolical laugh*

I have other cars for that. I have C6 with Dallas Pref TT, new Mast Motor and over 1600 whp(we still finishing tune). Have MP4 with https://renaissancespeed.com/product/absolute-mclaren-build-package-m838/

Have my GT2 with MarkSki MAFless kit and fully built suspension. All of them are amazing on the track . And all suck on the street. MP4 at least can be driven on the street and i can put a top down but it's too refined.

Whole concept of Viper for me was to get something topless :)))))) , raw but balanced enough for a street use. I got it dirt cheap and Ok putting $5-10K to get a nice street car. if it was gen 3 I probably would have done SC and called it a day :)))))))))))))))) although being NA is part of fun.

[Steve M]

It might be possible what DBW does not open TBs 100%. W209 CLK 63 did 80% opening compared to SL 63 or Black Series but AMG did it for pure marketing reasons - to claim different HP on essentially same platform with exact same engine, same exact intake and basically same exhaust and drivetrain. They basically detuned CLK as compared to more expensive cars. In turbo world they would have ran a different boost levels(Cayenne Turbo vs Turbo S), here they just limited TB opening. But since Viper did not compete with different models inside Dodge and was essentially top of the food chain I highly doubt they would detune car like that and do not let TB to open up 100%. Would be also picked up in tunes - weather HP or Arrow PCM for a good and easy 40-50HP right off the bat. Also Gen 4 dyno numbers do not support such "conspiracy" theory

They don't open 100%, but for a reason. I tried to explain it here: https://driveviper.com/forums/threads/28614-Different-Drive-Modes?p=440909&viewfull=1#post440909

Copied here for convenience:

When logging pedal position (driver demand) vs. throttle blade position (airflow delivered) vs. RPM, I've noted the same as what Jack has noted in his logs, provided I'm understanding him correctly. Basically, when you mash the gas pedal to the floor, the throttle blades don't open fully until pretty high up in the RPMs. Even then, they never truly open 90°. There are a couple of reasons for that:

1. The twin 74mm plastic (2008-2010, 2013-2014) or twin 76mm metal (2015-2017) Viper throttle bodies found on the Gen 4 and 5 cars flow massive amounts of air...way more than what's needed to feed these engines. Ever notice how even guys that run big honking 9L displacement variants don't touch the throttle bodies? They don't have to open up all the way for a good portion of the RPM range to feed the amount of air required to meet the driver demand, even with a larger than OEM displacement.

2. The reason they don't open fully is best illustrated by some cheesy graphics, so please bear with me.

At idle, the blades on a drive by wire car are always cracked...that's why there's no need for the typical idle air control valve like you'd see on a cable driven throttle body.

https://i.ibb.co/vHcmDRD/Throttle-Body-Diagram-at-Idle.png

At part throttle, the driver presses down the gas pedal; the PCM sees that demand and determines the amount of torque required to deliver it, along with all of the other demands (A/C, alternator, water pump, etc.); for a given amount of torque, the PCM knows how much airflow (and fuel + timing) needs to be delivered, and opens the throttle blades a set amount to achieve the desired airflow:

https://i.ibb.co/Y3sTs7x/Throttle-Body-Diagram-at-Part-Throttle.png

The relationship between the % the throttle blade is open vs. the cross-sectional area of the opening is most definitely not linear.

At wide open throttle, the blades eventually open all the way, but not to 90° as seen here (not drawn to scale to illustrate the point):

https://i.ibb.co/vwRMtsS/Throttle-Body-Diagram-at-WOT-1.png

The reason why should hopefully be obvious in this next diagram:

https://i.ibb.co/bWZ2q4R/Throttle-Body-Diagram-at-WOT-2.png

The shafts upon which the throttle blades rotate are significantly thicker than the blades themselves. I've not measured them, but it isn't trivial. You can see them here:

https://i.ibb.co/728pnRG/Throttle-Blade-Shafts.png

That's why you'll only see WOT values of around 86-87% on these cars. Opening them more than that would be a waste. It would also take extra time to shut the blades like when you let off the throttle, or heaven forbid, during a runaway throttle situation where the PCM has to step in and shut everything down as quickly as possible. Every millisecond counts when it comes to safety, so the throttle blades essentially always have a head start on the way to closing.

All that aside, yes, the TKO unit (which is actually a JMS Pedalmax) simply narrows the range over which the gas pedal has control over part throttle. It has no impact on how fast the throttle blades open (that's controlled by the PCM), nor does it impact the delay between pressing the gas pedal and the engine's response to that input. That is also set by the PCM, and is not adjustable by HPTuners - you need access to the source code to change it; that capability lies solely with Prefix unless you are willing to upgrade to a different engine management suite.

I will pass along one warning: be careful what you wish for. Being able to finely control part throttle operation during wheel spin is a good thing; adjusting the TKO unit so that small pedal inputs = WOT takes that away, and introduces the possibility of what I'd call pilot induced oscillation. That happened to me, and I almost put my car in a ditch because of it.

[LCatGA]

Steve M - then I talked about 100% I meant of usable range :) but thanks for clarifying it for everybody's benefit. Now if TKO box just compresses the range of gas pedal then I just waisted $350 although I might like shorter range :(. I'm pretty quick at stabbing a gas pedal and do not associate amount of movement of pedal with performance.

[LCatGA]

Have you flushed the clutch fluid? That may help if you have not although it is a bit of a PIA to do. There are a couple of "short cuts" but they take a bit more time and more fluid. Search this forum. Newer tires will improve your hook up but you know that already. The 2010 had different gearing so you may want to investigate that. Good luck.
I have no issue with a clutch other than a overall travel path of the pedal is on the long side. Clutch is very good :)

[TheMadMachinist]

I can save you some money.

Just press the pedal farther - the effect would be the same.

I thought the same as you do Steve.

Until I installed one. I can't explain it but if you turn the thing half way up it just like you added 100 hp. As silly as that sounds. I had to get another one for my Gen 5 and with it set to 1/4 it will defeat the traction control.

[LCatGA]

Well - should be here soon enough :) Let's hope it works :)))

[efnfast]

I thought the same as you do Steve.

Until I installed one. I can't explain it but if you turn the thing half way up it just like you added 100 hp. As silly as that sounds. I had to get another one for my Gen 5 and with it set to 1/4 it will defeat the traction control.

Exactly - I was in the same camp - I was convinced it was snake oil but figured worth it to try and it's a night and day difference for me and it's not just the same as pushing the pedal down further (although theoretically it should be) .... if i stomp it in 2nd or 3rd with the it set to 30% and then do it again with it set at 0% there's a huge difference in response and pull