Back in OTA 59 I am done with Automatics Paddle Shifts

[TIME]

I am happy to report that I got my OTA #59 back. Just bought it on BaT for $132K.

I had a Ferrari FF in between. I loved the engine and the drive but never made friends with the paddle shift and always left it in auto. It got a little boring for me to drive an "automatic". For that reason, I will no longer have a sports car with an automatic. I truly do not care if a paddle shift car is faster. There is always something faster out there anyway.

I am the original owner of OTA #59. Car is basically a standard unmodified TA, exactly the way I want it.
It is in great condition. I took good care of it and the guy that I sold it to did the same. Unfortunately, the engine went at 8K miles but it was replaced with a complete new engine. I am happy with that.

Need to fix a few minor things and then wait for spring to arrive here in Nevada. I am super excited to get on the road again with a V10 6-speed!

[Bruce H.]

That is just amazing...congratulations!
I hear you on the auto not satisfying your desires, which I feel with my 911 Turbo S....but each has their place.

[VENOM-TA]

Congrats.. I’ve got OTA #8 and was watching that auction closely.. it’s very cool you got it back..

[w12x]

Congrats! I was bidding on that car earlier today too :p
Most iconic TA config for sure

[w12x]

Congrats.. I’ve got OTA #8 and was watching that auction closely.. it’s very cool you got it back..

I remember seeing your comment under that auction! :lol2:

[SilveRT8]

Big congrats for getting back your own 'Blast to drive Viper !
Hey Bruce : The auto is why I sold the 911 Turbo S, this and the expiring warranty :)

[efnfast]

I know the feeling ... automatic/flappy paddle have ruined cars. I will only purchase manuals .... sadly I've bought every manual I want except for a F40, F50 and Carrera GT (just can't bring myself to pay those prices today)

[ACRSNK]

Congrats! So cool that you were able to get your car back. That definitely doesn’t happen too often.

[StrokerAce]

Congratulations. :)


That is just amazing...congratulations!
I hear you on the auto not satisfying your desires, which I feel with my 911 Turbo S....but each has their place.

The Turbo S is what I have wanted for a few years but I am scared I will make this comment and at this time I have limited space for a car like the Turbo S as that means the old lady would have to park outside and, well, that's not worth it. Haha

[Bruce H.]

The auto is why I sold the 911 Turbo S, this and the expiring warranty :)
It's my daily driver, and when I decided I couldn't part with the TA I told my wife it was hers to enjoy as much as possible. So the PDK/auto works great for our purposes, and is actually a blast on track as well! Some days I track both!



The Turbo S is what I have wanted for a few years but I am scared I will make this comment and at this time I have limited space for a car like the Turbo S as that means the old lady would have to park outside and, well, that's not worth it. Haha

Since my wife shares the Turbo she gladly gave up her SUV's spot in the garage and is none the wiser to my strategy;) And in the winter the Turbo goes on the lift above the TA...all problems solved!

[TIME]

Thank you ALL for your comments!!!

Certainly, an automatic has its place. My daily driver is an Audi Q5 diesel with 85K miles. The auto transmission works great and the 430 ft/lb of torque comes in handy when i pull my trailer with motorcycles.

I am very much looking forward to TA-roaming all the mountain roads in my immediate area around Reno, Nevada.
Note: I am so serious about the manual thing that I am on the list to get the controversial GMA T.33. However, that is two years out and the TA will do just fine until then and beyond.

[Snakebit10]

Since my wife shares the Turbo she gladly gave up her SUV's spot in the garage and is none the wiser to my strategy;) And in the winter the Turbo goes on the lift above the TA...all problems solved!

Forwarding post to Mrs.H :)

Best of both worlds, having a Turbo S and TA in the stable.

I think the OTA's are probably the most iconic Gen 5 non-ACR Viper. Not knocking the other colors at all, just that that orange just looks extra special on the Viper.

[TIME]

It's my daily driver, and when I decided I couldn't part with the TA I told my wife it was hers to enjoy as much as possible. So the PDK/auto works great for our purposes, and is actually a blast on track as well! Some days I track both!

Since my wife shares the Turbo she gladly gave up her SUV's spot in the garage and is none the wiser to my strategy;) And in the winter the Turbo goes on the lift above the TA...all problems solved!

Fantastic solution Bruce. You continue to be an inspiration with your Black TA. Thanks!

[Bruce H.]

Thank you, and it's great to have you back!

[Hawk]

Nice buy! Now drive it like you stole it because you did! :dancingman:

[TIME]

Nice buy! Now drive it like you stole it because you did! :dancingman:

I will..!!
Thank you.

[Voice of Reason]

That’s awesome that you were able to buy it back. And at a great price as well. I was surprised it didn’t go for much more considering asking prices for TAs out there.

[serpent]

OP, are you still in the Bay Area? I've seen an OTA in Cottle Rd, San Jose back in 2018. And more recently another OTA in the Fremont area. Probably not same car or owner tho.

[TIME]

OP, are you still in the Bay Area? I've seen an OTA in Cottle Rd, San Jose back in 2018. And more recently another OTA in the Fremont area. Probably not same car or owner tho.

Hi Serpent, I was never in the Bay Area but previous owner most likely is.

[Arizona Vipers]

Congrats! I saw your comments on the auction, pretty cool to get her back!
You need to go drive a 765LT hehe, trust me it's still fun with the automatic

[Mikey]

Congrats! You got a great deal, how cool to get your original car back

[Nine Ball]

Welcome back. Even while I own a few vehicles with flappy paddles, I never use them. It's an automatic, so I just drive those like automatics. Flappy paddles aren't nearly as fulfilling as a clutch pedal and an H-pattern gearbox.

[TIME]

Congrats! I saw your comments on the auction, pretty cool to get her back!
You need to go drive a 765LT hehe, trust me it's still fun with the automatic


Congrats! You got a great deal, how cool to get your original car back


Welcome back. Even while I own a few vehicles with flappy paddles, I never use them. It's an automatic, so I just drive those like automatics. Flappy paddles aren't nearly as fulfilling as a clutch pedal and an H-pattern gearbox.

Thanks guys!

Arizona, no doubt a double turbo V8 McLaren 765 w/paddle is fun - just not for me.
Mike, I hope that your rebuilt engine gets all the power you and a potential new owner expects.
Nine Ball, thanks for chiming in. Exactly, if you leave it in auto (and I did) takes a lot of fun out of driving.

TA 59 is having window motor and a door hinge fixed as we speak. Seller was even able to locate original car-cover.
I.e. I am getting a standard TA with all the original paperwork and the extras it originally came with. I am super happy about that.

[TIME]

All service done and OTA 59 is now home. Normandin Chrysler Dodge Jeep provided outstanding service!!
Had it delivered in an enclosed trailer. However, it snowed heavily when we unloaded it last night so I plowed through the snow into the garage.
I can highly recommend the transport person Stan Gordon (see pic. for info). He was wearing gloves, shoe covers, protective seat cover, and had the car covered inside the enclosed trailer.
I also went ahead and got the Fidelity Platinum extended warranty from Trenton (602) 909-9216 7-years/70K miles, transferable. $3,300/$10 deductible.

I am ready for spring!!

[pony23]

Congrats on getting your baby back. TA’s are great. Have fun with her.

I keep thinking about selling the Viper and getting a Turbo S. I just think I would miss shifting gears. I added TA suspension to my GTS and it is a better driving car on the backroads. I think I would miss it like you did and want to go back.

[TIME]

Congrats on getting your baby back. TA’s are great. Have fun with her.

I keep thinking about selling the Viper and getting a Turbo S. I just think I would miss shifting gears. I added TA suspension to my GTS and it is a better driving car on the backroads. I think I would miss it like you did and want to go back.

Thank you.

The basic nature of the TA is soo appealing to me. There is a giant difference in the suspension from a "normal" Viper to a TA (apologies to normal-Viper-suspension people) so with your suspension upgrade you are in good shape.

The Porsche is an incredible sports car and well built - it's just not for me. With a Porsche you might end up missing the rawness of your Viper. Borrow/rent a Turbo S for a weekend and put some miles on it.

[Bruce H.]

The Porsche is an incredible sports car and well built - it's just not for me. With a Porsche you might end up missing the rawness of your Viper. Borrow/rent a Turbo S for a weekend and put some miles on it.

So glad you got yours back!

To Turbo S or not to Turbo S is a tricky decision. There's never a moment driving it that you doubt that it's the benchmark of sports cars as broadly claimed for years. It does everything exceedingly well, in every condition, on the street and on the race track, every day, year after year, and is basically unbreakable.

It surely is a benchmark daily street/track sports car, but it's not the perfect enthusiast's sports car. It evokes respect rather than lust. It's beautifully proportioned and attractive, but it's not OMG drop dead gorgeous while simultaneously being both one of the sexiest and menacing sports cars ever. It's engine/exhaust sound is muted rather than entertaining, it's PDK tranny is auto shift perfection rather than 6 speed engaging, the car becomes exciting at high speeds rather than even before you step into it. Every 911 is replaceable by the next 911. The TA never will be.

No...the Viper TA is everything the 911 Turbo S isn't. The TA's street/track attributes are impossible to find in anything else, and even at twice the price IMO (and I've never stopped looking). It's special, as is every Viper, and very unique even among Vipers. When I ordered my Turbo S I thought it might replace my TA one day. But the TA is the keeper, and while I do love the Turbo S, it might one day be replaced by an SUV!

[ViperNC]

The Viper TA is everything the 911 Turbo S isn't. The TA's street/track attributes are impossible to find in anything else, and even at twice the price IMO (and I've never stopped looking). It's special, as is every Viper, and very unique even among Vipers. When I ordered my Turbo S I thought it might replace my TA one day. But the TA is the keeper, and while I do love the Turbo S, it might one day be replaced by an SUV!

Have to agree with this, but also add in all the other high end sports cars that have gone away from the driver experience of a manual gearbox. A friend bought a GT3 RS a while back and also has a 911 cup car for the track. After a day of driving his new toy he came back somewhat disappointed and said it just isn't as fun to drive with the PDK. Same goes for the Ferrari's, Lamborghini's, Aston Martin's, etc. Being too good takes the joy and excitement out of experience. I never get bored driving the Viper. Ever.

[Mikey]

The Viper is that hot toxic Latina woman that will try to kill you from time to time
The turbo s is the good girl you take to meet your mom

[ACRSNK]

Have to agree with this, but also add in all the other high end sports cars that have gone away from the driver experience of a manual gearbox. A friend bought a GT3 RS a while back and also has a 911 cup car for the track. After a day of driving his new toy he came back somewhat disappointed and said it just isn't as fun to drive with the PDK. Same goes for the Ferrari's, Lamborghini's, Aston Martin's, etc. Being too good takes the joy and excitement out of experience. I never get bored driving the Viper. Ever.

Your friend should get a manual GT3…..that car is a ton of fun on the track and off.

[ViperSRT]

Thank you.

The basic nature of the TA is soo appealing to me. There is a giant difference in the suspension from a "normal" Viper to a TA (apologies to normal-Viper-suspension people) so with your suspension upgrade you are in good shape.


Pardon me for asking, but what is the “giant difference” between a TA suspension and others? I was only aware of spring rates, anti-roll bar (common with ACR) and shock damping rates.

[StrokerAce]

I've wanted a Turbo S for a few years. Need to go drive for one for a few days.

[ViperNC]

Your friend should get a manual GT3…..that car is a ton of fun on the track and off.

EXACTLY!

[pony23]

Pardon me for asking, but what is the “giant difference” between a TA suspension and others? I was only aware of spring rates, anti-roll bar (common with ACR) and shock damping rates.

It’s that plus the brakes are a little better and it has a much more aggressive alignment settings. When I swapped out the GTS suspension to all the TA stuff it seemed like a whole different car. I felt more confident in the car twisting through the backroads. It could be more the alignment than the rest but it just feels great. Like this is the way it should be.

[TIME]

Pardon me for asking, but what is the “giant difference” between a TA suspension and others? I was only aware of spring rates, anti-roll bar (common with ACR) and shock damping rates.

Part of buying a new Viper then (2014) was a track experience put on by SRT-Dodge on the Las Vegas Motor Speedway. We did Auto-X on a tight course followed by track racing, each of us with our own instructor. Cars were supplied by Dodge and we were driving "normal" Vipers i.e. no TA's.

At the time of the track experience, I had had the TA for a while and taken it on many road trips in the Sierra Mountains where I live. I was used to the very supportive suspension and the way the TA would corner on a mountain road.

Driving a standard Viper on track was a vastly different experience. It would push wide in the turns and not be nearly as "stuck" to the road/track as I was used to from my own TA. It was quite frankly disappointing to me and a felt like giant difference. As it turned out there was another TA owner there and we got to talking. His experience was exactly the same as mine. My conclusion after this was that I could only be in a TA if I was going to drive a Viper. I understand that an ACR is even better on the track, however, it is not as user-friendly on the road.

For me the TA is perfect.

[TIME]

So glad you got yours back!

To Turbo S or not to Turbo S is a tricky decision. There's never a moment driving it that you doubt that it's the benchmark of sports cars as broadly claimed for years. It does everything exceedingly well, in every condition, on the street and on the race track, every day, year after year, and is basically unbreakable.

It surely is a benchmark daily street/track sports car, but it's not the perfect enthusiast's sports car. It evokes respect rather than lust. It's beautifully proportioned and attractive, but it's not OMG drop dead gorgeous while simultaneously being both one of the sexiest and menacing sports cars ever. It's engine/exhaust sound is muted rather than entertaining, it's PDK tranny is auto shift perfection rather than 6 speed engaging, the car becomes exciting at high speeds rather than even before you step into it. Every 911 is replaceable by the next 911. The TA never will be.

No...the Viper TA is everything the 911 Turbo S isn't. The TA's street/track attributes are impossible to find in anything else, and even at twice the price IMO (and I've never stopped looking). It's special, as is every Viper, and very unique even among Vipers. When I ordered my Turbo S I thought it might replace my TA one day. But the TA is the keeper, and while I do love the Turbo S, it might one day be replaced by an SUV!

Bruce:
I was hoping you would chime in as you have first hand experience regarding Pony23's considerations.

I remember your posts when you were getting the Porsche. Specifically your thoughts about possibly selling your Black TA. I had been looking for a TA (and ONLY a TA) for a while and was quietly hoping that you would sell yours. The miles and track use, you have on it, is not a concern for me as long as it is well taken care of. Obviously I could not resist when my "own" came up for sale.

[Bruce H.]

Bruce:
I was hoping you would chime in as you have first hand experience regarding Pony23's considerations.

I remember your posts when you were getting the Porsche. Specifically your thoughts about possibly selling your Black TA. I had been looking for a TA (and ONLY a TA) for a while and was quietly hoping that you would sell yours. The miles and track use, you have on it, is not a concern for me as long as it is well taken care of. Obviously I could not resist when my "own" came up for sale.

Well I'm glad I didn't put mine up for sale then! Doesn't get any better than being able to buy back the one that got away! Love, love, love your T.33 choice, and with the manual as most buyers have also chosen.

Years ago the automotive media machine went gaga over the dual clutch transmission, no doubt in part because that's what the manufacturers wanted to produce and create demand for. They all extolled the virtues of the DCT relentlessly, and fans of the manual were left feeling like dinosaurs. Thankfully that is changing, and more reviewers are finally acknowledging that the act of manually shifting a proper sports car is infinitely more important in satisfying the needs of the enthusiast for an engaging driving experience than a faster gear change! So to Pony23's concerns, some of the best auto reviewers are discovering that you're on to something real!

The conversation about the TA's upgraded spec suspension, brakes and such reminds me of the recommendations of Ralph Gilles, and Randy Pobst who tested the SRT, GTS and TA at Laguna Seca. I was trying to choose a Gen V for my frequent advanced-level track use and long distance road trip needs, and they both independently said in no uncertain terms...buy the TA because I'd need those upgrades, and I really did. As much as the TA brakes are an upgrade over the other 2 brake packages, I still exceeded the thermal capacity of the system, but the massive rotors combined with upgraded Castrol SRF fluid and race pads was the answer.

Randy Pobst helped chose the final damper valving on the TA that helped it set the production car track record at Laguna Seca. The firmer springs and roll bar with the dual mode dampers set to the softer Street setting is my preference for the tracks I drive, and the TA is the only model with that combo. The suspension's compliance for street use is truly impressive, with many road trips up to 27 hours and 13 days in length with my wife (Toronto to NVE3 in New Orleans plus touring both ways). We both have bad backs but find the TA's seats to be really comfortable and supportive. The front Pirelli Corsa tire was designed for the Viper with greater negative camber and my Z06 and ACR-E track buddies all wish their tires performed as well and lasted as long.

Just so much to like about the TA, and it's even more appealing today than it was 9 years ago! I'm sure the same can be said about every Viper for a variety of reasons. We're all very fortunate to have been able to enjoy them!

[SilveRT8]

The Viper is that hot toxic Latina woman that will try to kill you from time to time
The turbo s is the good girl you take to meet your mom

Great analogy !

Having just recently sold my Turbo S, I always tought of them as :
Viper is the wild Rodeo horse,
Turbo S is the Kentucky derby champ

More thrills and flirting with the danger zone in the Viper gets the win for me, over the fast elegant compusure of the Turbo S.

[pony23]

Thanks for all the input guys. I get into this funky thought process every winter and think about selling. Then once I can drive the car again in the spring it usually leaves my mind because I enjoy driving the car so much. I also have to remind myself there will never be another big displacement, manual trans car, ever!!

Time, I hope I didn’t hijack your post too badly. Lol.

[Mikey]

I've wanted a Turbo S for a few years. Need to go drive for one for a few days.

It's truly as perfect of a car as you can get. I had a 2014 briefly, and other than the lack of "flare", it did everything right. Stock exhaust sounds like a vacuum cleaner though

[TIME]

Time, I hope I didn’t hijack your post too badly. Lol.

Not at all. It plays right into the paddle shift vs. manual considerations. Not really a right or wrong choice.
I just realize that I want the manual over an automatic.

[TIME]

Well I'm glad I didn't put mine up for sale then! Doesn't get any better than being able to buy back the one that got away! Love, love, love your T.33 choice, and with the manual as most buyers have also chosen.

The conversation about the TA's upgraded spec suspension, brakes and such reminds me of the recommendations of Ralph Gilles, and Randy Pobst who tested the SRT, GTS and TA at Laguna Seca. I was trying to choose a Gen V for my frequent advanced-level track use and long distance road trip needs, and they both independently said in no uncertain terms...buy the TA because I'd need those upgrades, and I really did. As much as the TA brakes are an upgrade over the other 2 brake packages, I still exceeded the thermal capacity of the system, but the massive rotors combined with upgraded Castrol SRF fluid and race pads was the answer.

Randy Pobst helped chose the final damper valving on the TA that helped it set the production car track record at Laguna Seca. The firmer springs and roll bar with the dual mode dampers set to the softer Street setting is my preference for the tracks I drive, and the TA is the only model with that combo. The suspension's compliance for street use is truly impressive, with many road trips up to 27 hours and 13 days in length with my wife (Toronto to NVE3 in New Orleans plus touring both ways). We both have bad backs but find the TA's seats to be really comfortable and supportive. The front Pirelli Corsa tire was designed for the Viper with greater negative camber and my Z06 and ACR-E track buddies all wish their tires performed as well and lasted as long.

Just so much to like about the TA, and it's even more appealing today than it was 9 years ago! I'm sure the same can be said about every Viper for a variety of reasons. We're all very fortunate to have been able to enjoy them!

Bruce: great writeup and insight as usual. I knew about Randy Pobst and his record on Laguna Seca (still have the MotorTrend magazine) but did not know that he helped with the final damper valving. Great input along with your Castrol SRF brake fluid observation. Thank you.
Note: GMA had to cancel the paddle shift option for the T.33 as only a few (eight or so) had picked it. For that reason it was no longer feasible.

[Fulltilt]

Since we're on the topic, are Porsche's crazy expensive to maintain? What about reliability? I have a friend looking at a manual 911 Turbo but he's been bouncing between 2007 and 2012 (I think). I'm guessing everyone is going to say get a Turbo S.

[Mikey]

Since we're on the topic, are Porsche's crazy expensive to maintain? What about reliability? I have a friend looking at a manual 911 Turbo but he's been bouncing between 2007 and 2012 (I think). I'm guessing everyone is going to say get a Turbo S.

Not anymore expensive than a Viper. I heard panamaras can be problematic, but 911s are solid

[ACRSNK]

Any P car will be more expensive to maintain than a Viper. I just had the oil changed in my 2022 Macan S and the bill was over $500.00. Definitely more than a Viper oil change.

[Mikey]

Any P car will be more expensive to maintain than a Viper. I just had the oil changed in my 2022 Macan S and the bill was over $500.00. Definitely more than a Viper oil change.

I guess my perception is skewed as my Viper has been a complete money pit

[Bruce H.]

Since there's a lot of interest and respect for the achievements of both the TA and 911 Turbo S, I thought sharing how these over-achiever's handling compares on race tracks "at the limit" might be of interest. While the newest crop of supercars has kept getting faster and faster, the 2014 TA was the fastest of the production cars then...and the newer 2017-2019 (991.2) 911 Turbo S was even a little quicker.

I think these are two of the best sources of reliable and comparable documented testing data are https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna-seca-post-1988 where one race car driver (Randy Pobst) tests a broad range of these vehicles at Laguna Seca, including both the TA and Turbo S. And here's where the Turbo S is tested against many of the best https://www.evo.co.uk/leaderboard/16996/evo-leaderboard-lap-times-the-worlds-fastest-cars-tested-on-track. Day to day differences in testing conditions and results are a given, but the rankings do give you a pretty good idea.

The Turbo S is the faster lapping car on tracks that favor horsepower like Laguna Seca and my home track, Canadian Tire Motorsports Park (aka Mosport). While the TA is quicker in the corners, the Turbo S is the faster rocket down the straights, besting the TA by roughly the same fraction of a second on a 1:33 lap that Randy found at Laguna Seca over that track's nearly identical lap times for both cars.

The Turbo S weighs roughly 200 lbs more than the TA, has a rated power that's 60 hp less, has a 7 speed PDK that optimizes it's powerband everywhere and loses nothing when shifting, and has twin turbos that make monster torque out of the 3.8L almost from idle, and may maintain it's power better as temps rise. It also has AWD and a rear weight bias with the engine hanging out the back.

I sometimes track both cars on the same day, noting their respective attributes, and my own preferences. I'm frequently asked which car I prefer on track, differences in their handling, and how I compensate for that in my driving of each. Well, I drive the two pretty much identically right up to the limits of tire grip and beyond...and that's where it's determined whether you'll be driving the car home or transporting it on a flatbed!

Corner entry is where you notice the biggest difference when going in hot, and it's not subtle. Hard braking from high speed with downshift through the brake zone, and trail-braking from corner turn-in towards the apex. The Turbo S is great under the hard braking but as soon as you start to release brake pressure and steer into the corner the rear can become unsettle, wanting to step out. As well as the Porsche engineers have managed to eradicate the 911's lift-throttle oversteer with engineering magic, that rear engine placement and weight bias is still there when driving at the limit, and it must be respected.

Mid-corner handling is balanced, but you feel the extra weight, the AWD offers nothing beneficial, and corner speed suffers a little compared to the TA. Corner exit is very strong with both the rear bias and AWD giving a slight advantage, and the Turbo's slightly higher exit speeds give it a good advantage down the straights.

The TA is better balanced and more stable when thrown into a corner, despite the driver having performed a manual downshift that causes weight transfer the moment the clutch is depressed. While the rear can feel a little twitchy under very hard braking from very high speeds until you get used to it, the rear feels utterly balanced, stable and planted through the corners. The Pirelli Corsa tire gives you a huge window of progressive grip at their limits, first with a gravelly feel transmitted through the car, followed by audible tire noise and then squealing, and then controlled sliding before they'll finally let go. I haven't experienced them actually letting go because the tire is so communicative it's easy to drive it right up to and slightly over its limits of grip...and this is why I've always praised the Pirelli Corsa. Unless your income depends on putting life and car on the line it's probably good to ease up when the tires are squealing from corner entry to exit...and they'll last a lot longer too!

The Turbo S is a riot because it accelerates so brutally fast, and it's absolutely one of the fastest ways to get from one end of a straightaway to the other. That kind power never gets old on the street either. When you jump into it after driving other vehicles you can startle yourself when pulling out to pass someone if you haven't recalibrated your right foot first. I've had it a little sideways a couple of times on track in the dry and wet, and with a little counter-steer (and maybe some electronic intervention?), it was all good and a non-event.

The TA is another kind of animal altogether. It's single focused on the kind of thoroughly balanced performance that you want in the ultimate street car built for the track...and that's exactly what it was when launched, and still stacks up very well against all but the newest today. I had the rear step out once under hard acceleration through a sweeper when a dip in the pavement caused the rear to step out. I stayed on it, didn't adjust the wheel, and the tailed tucked right back in like nothing had happened. On the next lap I could see short rubber marks where the ESC in Track Mode had applied brakes momentarily.

The rear of the TA isn’t quite as glued down as the Turbo S with it’s engine sitting over it, but it not at all loose either. The TA is extremely well balanced, with the driver able to control or induce under-steer or over-steer at will with his right foot … or accidentally as he puts on a show leaving a C&C, ouch! When you turn the TA into a tight corner a quick lift off the throttle will tuck the nose in, having transferred more weight onto the front tires, thereby increasing tire grip. The Turbo S doesn’t offer that level of driver control. When driving close to the limit this neutral TA balance and huge power does mean you can’t operate the throttle like an on and off switch, but rather smoothly adding in more power as you apex through to full power at exit.

So while both are extremely fast cars on track, it’s the TA that impresses most, and feels more like the purpose built track car. And putting together blistering laps while manually shifting makes you feel like a hero in this era of fast automatics! And the Turbo S daily driver isn’t too bad either :)

[ViperGeorge]

Since there's a lot of interest and respect for the achievements of both the TA and 911 Turbo S, I thought sharing how these over-achiever's handling compares on race tracks "at the limit" might be of interest. While the newest crop of supercars has kept getting faster and faster, the 2014 TA was the fastest of the production cars then...and the newer 2017-2019 (991.2) 911 Turbo S was even a little quicker.

I think these are two of the best sources of reliable and comparable documented testing data are https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna-seca-post-1988 where one race car driver (Randy Pobst) tests a broad range of these vehicles at Laguna Seca, including both the TA and Turbo S. And here's where the Turbo S is tested against many of the best https://www.evo.co.uk/leaderboard/16996/evo-leaderboard-lap-times-the-worlds-fastest-cars-tested-on-track. Day to day differences in testing conditions and results are a given, but the rankings do give you a pretty good idea.

The Turbo S is the faster lapping car on tracks that favor horsepower like Laguna Seca and my home track, Canadian Tire Motorsports Park (aka Mosport). While the TA is quicker in the corners, the Turbo S is the faster rocket down the straights, besting the TA by roughly the same fraction of a second on a 1:33 lap that Randy found at Laguna Seca over that track's nearly identical lap times for both cars.

The Turbo S weighs roughly 200 lbs more than the TA, has a rated power that's 60 hp less, has a 7 speed PDK that optimizes it's powerband everywhere and loses nothing when shifting, and has twin turbos that make monster torque out of the 3.8L almost from idle, and may maintain it's power better as temps rise. It also has AWD and a rear weight bias with the engine hanging out the back.

I sometimes track both cars on the same day, noting their respective attributes, and my own preferences. I'm frequently asked which car I prefer on track, differences in their handling, and how I compensate for that in my driving of each. Well, I drive the two pretty much identically right up to the limits of tire grip and beyond...and that's where it's determined whether you'll be driving the car home or transporting it on a flatbed!

Corner entry is where you notice the biggest difference when going in hot, and it's not subtle. Hard braking from high speed with downshift through the brake zone, and trail-braking from corner turn-in towards the apex. The Turbo S is great under the hard braking but as soon as you start to release brake pressure and steer into the corner the rear can become unsettle, wanting to step out. As well as the Porsche engineers have managed to eradicate the 911's lift-throttle oversteer with engineering magic, that rear engine placement and weight bias is still there when driving at the limit, and it must be respected.

Mid-corner handling is balanced, but you feel the extra weight, the AWD offers nothing beneficial, and corner speed suffers a little compared to the TA. Corner exit is very strong with both the rear bias and AWD giving a slight advantage, and the Turbo's slightly higher exit speeds give it a good advantage down the straights.

The TA is better balanced and more stable when thrown into a corner, despite the driver having performed a manual downshift that causes weight transfer the moment the clutch is depressed. While the rear can feel a little twitchy under very hard braking from very high speeds until you get used to it, the rear feels utterly balanced, stable and planted through the corners. The Pirelli Corsa tire gives you a huge window of progressive grip at their limits, first with a gravelly feel transmitted through the car, followed by audible tire noise and then squealing, and then controlled sliding before they'll finally let go. I haven't experienced them actually letting go because the tire is so communicative it's easy to drive it right up to and slightly over its limits of grip...and this is why I've always praised the Pirelli Corsa. Unless your income depends on putting life and car on the line it's probably good to ease up when the tires are squealing from corner entry to exit...and they'll last a lot longer too!

The Turbo S is a riot because it accelerates so brutally fast, and it's absolutely one of the fastest ways to get from one end of a straightaway to the other. That kind power never gets old on the street either. When you jump into it after driving other vehicles you can startle yourself when pulling out to pass someone if you haven't recalibrated your right foot first. I've had it a little sideways a couple of times on track in the dry and wet, and with a little counter-steer (and maybe some electronic intervention?), it was all good and a non-event.

The TA is another kind of animal altogether. It's single focused on the kind of thoroughly balanced performance that you want in the ultimate street car built for the track...and that's exactly what it was when launched, and still stacks up very well against all but the newest today. I had the rear step out once under hard acceleration through a sweeper when a dip in the pavement caused the rear to step out. I stayed on it, didn't adjust the wheel, and the tailed tucked right back in like nothing had happened. On the next lap I could see short rubber marks where the ESC in Track Mode had applied brakes momentarily.

The rear of the TA isn’t quite as glued down as the Turbo S with it’s engine sitting over it, but it not at all loose either. The TA is extremely well balanced, with the driver able to control or induce under-steer or over-steer at will with his right foot … or accidentally as he puts on a show leaving a C&C, ouch! When you turn the TA into a tight corner a quick lift off the throttle will tuck the nose in, having transferred more weight onto the front tires, thereby increasing tire grip. The Turbo S doesn’t offer that level of driver control. When driving close to the limit this neutral TA balance and huge power does mean you can’t operate the throttle like an on and off switch, but rather smoothly adding in more power as you apex through to full power at exit.

So while both are extremely fast cars on track, it’s the TA that impresses most, and feels more like the purpose built track car. And putting together blistering laps while manually shifting makes you feel like a hero in this era of fast automatics! And the Turbo S daily driver isn’t too bad either :)

Great write-up. I wonder how the Turbo S would compare to a TA 2.0 or an ACR-E.

[TIME]

Great write-up Bruce. Love all the details. Thank you.

[Bruce H.]

Glad you like the write-ups...I enjoy sharing the performance characteristics that many owners might not have experienced or even realize exists!


Great write-up. I wonder how the Turbo S would compare to a TA 2.0 or an ACR-E.
From a handling standpoint the TA 1.0 and 2.0 would handle identically, and with the 2.0's slight increase in downforce, drag and weight, I'd hope it wouldn't have much trouble keeping up with a 1.0, but not much chance with the Turbo S ;)

And I'd like to assure ACR-E owners that their Vipers do in fact outperform the Turbo S at Cars & Coffee and in Return on Investment, lol.



Great write-up Bruce. Love all the details. Thank you.

[StrokerAce]

I've been looking at the newer Turbo S which is 640 hp, regular Turbo is I think is 580.

Any experience with the latest?

[Bruce H.]

I've been looking at the newer Turbo S which is 640 hp, regular Turbo is I think is 580.

Any experience with the latest?

I've researched the 992 Turbo S but have no experience with it. It's a little larger, heavier, more powerful and has even more brutal acceleration.

Here's a comparison of some performance data. There are lap times of the two from a few tracks, but without same driver or other factors known it's impossible to judge how comparable the lap results are. It shows the newer 992 TS lapped Laguna Seca in 1:32:97 vs 1:33:21 which is close enough that the difference could be caused by weather or track conditions. If Randy Pobst tested it using the Motortrend methods you'd see more comparable results, plus his all-important driving impressions, and I fully expect the 992 would do a slightly faster lap. Which he prefers driving on and off the track would be of the most interest to me.

https://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/fr18ksgfldll

[ViperNC]

On Sunday I took the Viper out for a spin and came up on a brand new Turbo S on some of my backcountry twisty roads. A number of times he would gun it and then slow down as I just maintained a steady fun spirited pace, but after a while I decided to get on it. He accelerated hard coming out of a sharp left hander and I did the same, but then had to back out of the throttle as he couldn't accelerate fast enough. A few more turns and we came to a stop sign. The driver opened his door and stepped out of his Porsche to come speak with me. He was very nice and said at first he thought I was a Ferrari in his rear view mirror, but then realized the beast behind him was far more than he was ready for. He couldn't stop gushing over the Viper and saying how awesome it was yet intimidating to have me behind him at the same time. I invited him to follow me for some more driving, but he bowed out.

9.0 L and TA1 package makes for a potent snake. :drive:

[J TNT]

ViperNC , I chatted with Scot from Prefix last week and 9 Liter Sales are Going Better than expected . Given your experience I can see why .
Nice Choice in Mods !

Someone said , once you've driven a 9 Liter Viper it's hard to Go back to a regular Viper.......lol !

[ViperNC]

ViperNC , I chatted with Scot from Prefix last week and 9 Liter Sales are Going Better than expected . Given your experience I can see why .
Nice Choice in Mods !

Someone said , once you've driven a 9 Liter Viper it's hard to Go back to a regular Viper.......lol !

Scot is a great guy and has been very helpful. I'd recommend Prefix to anyone who wants a 9.0L build for their Viper.

[SRT_BluByU]

I agree.. I've worked with Scot/Prefix on two different occasions and they were AWESOME to work with..no surprises. If/When the time comes for an engine refresh its going to Prefix for the 9LX