Fluttering sounds when accelerating

[Mikey]

I usually drive with my music ignorantly loud, but while coming back from a night out, I noticed a sound coming from what I assume is the trans. I noticed this after having the clutch changed
https://youtube.com/shorts/w-DLcs43dOg?feature=share

Now the noise has gotten worse

https://youtube.com/shorts/UcU-jFvfuQ0?feature=share

Edit: The car now struggles to start
https://youtube.com/shorts/0uGNMOfFacA?feature=share

I've unfortunately had issues after each visit at my current shop, I'm contemplating legal action at this point.

[VENOM-TA]

Damn dude.. WTF!!! All that sounds bad…

[13COBRA]

I don't think the clutch is aligned properly. I'd take it back to whomever installed it.

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

Probably a clutch alignment problem. Only a few shops know how to properly measure and align a bellhousing, crank and input shaft. Do you know if they replaced pilot bearing?

[Mikey]

Probably a clutch alignment problem. Only a few shops know how to properly measure and align a bellhousing, crank and input shaft. Do you know if they replaced pilot bearing?

Not sure, the original issue was the throw out bearing before they changed the clutch, so I'd hope they changed bith. the shop is an hour away and they don't have room until next week

[13COBRA]

Not sure, the original issue was the throw out bearing before they changed the clutch, so I'd hope they changed bith. the shop is an hour away and they don't have room until next week

I would quite kindly inform them to make time.

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

Not sure, the original issue was the throw out bearing before they changed the clutch, so I'd hope they changed bith. the shop is an hour away and they don't have room until next week

With viper clutches especially you have to replace pilot bearing and a complete t/o bearing assy to be safe. A clutch alignment ( input shaft to pilot bearing) is highly recommended because vipers are very hit or mis when it comes to this. Many installers get lucky and the alignment is good. But if the alignment is bad it can cause all kinds of down stream problems. 99% of the shops out there are not setup to do clutch alignments correctly unfortunately, and most shops dont know alignments are even necessary.
The big problem is you can replace the pilot bearing, and T/O bearing assy and think your all good; but if the alignment is off the pilot bearing will go south then the input shaft, and finally the t/o bearing guide sleeve will get chewed up and take out the t/o bearing assy. All of these of course are bad but the input shaft is the big problem. The supply of input shafts for the viper 5th gen magnum trans are almost non existent these days.

[Mikey]

With viper clutches especially you have to replace pilot bearing and a complete t/o bearing assy to be safe. A clutch alignment ( input shaft to pilot bearing) is highly recommended because vipers are very hit or mis when it comes to this. Many installers get lucky and the alignment is good. But if the alignment is bad it can cause all kinds of down stream problems. 99% of the shops out there are not setup to do clutch alignments correctly unfortunately, and most shops dont know alignments are even necessary.
The big problem is you can replace the pilot bearing, and T/O bearing assy and think your all good; but if the alignment is off the pilot bearing will go south then the input shaft, and finally the t/o bearing guide sleeve will get chewed up and take out the t/o bearing assy. All of these of course are bad but the input shaft is the big problem. The supply of input shafts for the viper 5th gen magnum trans are almost non existent these days.

I'm unsure how to proceed with the matter. I've had an issue after each visit to this shop that was highly recommended by the community, I dont have the confidence that they can correct the issue. The dealership close by has a Viper tech, but then I'd have to pursue reimbursement

[13COBRA]

I'm unsure how to proceed with the matter. I've had an issue after each visit to this shop that was highly recommended by the community, I dont have the confidence that they can correct the issue. The dealership close by has a Viper tech, but then I'd have to pursue reimbursement

What shop installed it? I'd start with them. Explain to them that you think it's a clutch alignment issue, and are they up to the task of fixing it, or would they rather pay another shop to correct the issue.

[Lawineer]

I'd very politely explain to them that they need to send a tow truck and fix this asap.

[Mikey]

Tow truck just picked her up. I'm less than pleased, today she was supposed to have a new steering rack

[efnfast]

What exactly is a clutch alignment?

In any clutches I've done the pilot bearing gets hammered in and the input bearing retainer is fixed in the transmission so there's no play there, only play is checking/adjusting run-out in the bellhousing (which you'd only do on a new install, not a clutch change)

[Mikey]

Just got off the phone with them, they're saying it sounds like engine knock and nothing is coming from the clutch.

[13COBRA]

That definitely doesn't sound like engine knock to me...

[Mikey]

That definitely doesn't sound like engine knock to me...

Something isn't sitting right with me. When I manage to pull it in to the garage last night, it stalled going up the driveway. Not sure engine knock would do that. He stated the car is slightly short on oil. The car has been out of their shop for a total of 3 weeks, it consumed that much oil in that time? I specifically asked last time the car was in the shop to check if it needing anything else, and they said no.

He said the weak start up was due to the battery.

[ViperSRT]

Did they have the flywheel off during the clutch installation? I've heard some loose flywheels that can sound like that. If so it should stop or lessen with clutch pedal pressure.

As for oil level that is something you should confirm yourself regularly. I agree the slow crank sounds like battery or electrical connection resistance.

[Mikey]

Did they have the flywheel off during the clutch installation? I've heard some loose flywheels that can sound like that. If so it should stop or lessen with clutch pedal pressure.

As for oil level that is something you should confirm yourself regularly. I agree the slow crank sounds like battery or electrical connection resistance.

I have no idea, I pasted the notes they left at the bottom. I checked the oil last week and it was fine

8/30/2022 Road tested to break in clutch; no unusual noise heard after repair. Test drive was normal.
8/30/2022 Because Mcleod clutch requires an adapter be installed onto the stock flywheel, there was no wear whatsoever on stock flywheel. Installed OEM twin disc and pressure plate assembly onto existing flywheel. Installed transmission and torqued all fasteners to specs.
8/30/2022 Removed transmission to access clutch. Found that vehicle is equipped with an aftermarket twin disc clutch made by Mcleod. Disassembled clutch and found some unusual wear on inner portion of friction plates, and steel plates. Clutches are not worn completely, but it is believed that the unusual noise is from a fault with the friction disc.

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

[QUOTE=efnfast;463255]What exactly is a clutch alignment?

In any clutches I've done the pilot bearing gets hammered in and the input bearing retainer is fixed in the transmission so there's no play there, only play is checking/adjusting run-out in the bellhousing (which you'd only do on a new install, not a clutch change)[/QU

Many of the vipers we install clutches or replace clutches have .020-.030 of misalignment. This isnt great and we have seen as much as .060". Any misalignment more then .005" will cause premature failure of pilot bearing and then cause the down stream big problems. "Premature" pilot bearing failure maybe 15-20K miles and since many vipers may not see 15-20k for years the misalignment problem may never diagnosed properly or corrected.
When we install new clutches or replace clutches we always use a new steel scatter proof bellhousing that we machine for flatness. Then we check input shaft alignment to crank and either purchase or machine new offset alignment pins as necessary. When we are done our spec is .005" max total misalignment. After we are all done there is a very noticeable difference in clutch performance; especially when using Nth moto multi disc clutches.

[Mikey]

Another video from last night

https://youtu.be/-QliPEnua5o


Latest note they put in. I'm unable to see any pictures


9/21/2022 With customers permission, removed oil filter and cut open to inspect. Found an abundant amount of what appears to be bearing material trapped in filter element, and in bottom of filter shell once element was removed. (See pics) Engine will need to be disassembled to assess extent of the damage, and for a possible cause of failure.




Mr Nieves,
When the vehicle was dropped off today by the transporter at about 3:30pm, we immediately put it on the next open lift we had available. As I said earlier in my email we will make it a priority to address any issues or concerns you’re having with your car after getting it serviced with us. We proceeded to remove the belly pan, and clutch inspection cover to start our diagnostic process.

Everything looked good, nothing stuck out like a sore thumb. We then went ahead and started the engine, and very quickly found that the noise was 100% coming from the engine, not the transmission.

I then called you to get your permission to proceed with removing the oil filter. Gen5 viper engines have a very common bearing failure so we wanted to cut the filter open to inspect further, as well as checking the oil level. Again, the oil level was right at the bottom of the cross hatches on the dip stick, not all bearing failure is a result of low oil.

Unfortunately when cutting open the filter we found a significant amount of copper and bearing material in the oil filter. This would indicate that the noises you were getting was not from the transmission or the clutch job we had just performed for you, but certainly due to bearing failure in the engine. I have attached pictures of our finding.

I am terrible sorry for the bad news, but I confident that we are able to repair the engine back to its original condition. Please let us know how you would like us to proceed now that we know it is an unrelated issue from our previous work.


52207

52208

52209

52210

[efnfast]

If there's bearing material in there that would be your cause but those noises sure don't sound like any engine-related noises I've ever heard



Many of the vipers we install clutches or replace clutches have .020-.030 of misalignment. This isnt great and we have seen as much as .060". Any misalignment more then .005" will cause premature failure of pilot bearing and then cause the down stream big problems. "Premature" pilot bearing failure maybe 15-20K miles and since many vipers may not see 15-20k for years the misalignment problem may never diagnosed properly or corrected.
When we install new clutches or replace clutches we always use a new steel scatter proof bellhousing that we machine for flatness. Then we check input shaft alignment to crank and either purchase or machine new offset alignment pins as necessary. When we are done our spec is .005" max total misalignment. After we are all done there is a very noticeable difference in clutch performance; especially when using Nth moto multi disc clutches.

So for clarity you're basically saying clutch alignment in a Viper is making sure bellhousing runout is within spec? i think that's what you're saying but it almost sounds like you're modifying something on the input shaft.

[Gen5snake]

I was going to say, I never heard a clutch sound like that before. I've had clutch springs come loose and they make a racket bouncing around. Also causing the clutch to not disengage making the car hard to start...As you tried starting the car, the car would start moving as if it was in gear.

Sorry that you had a bearing failure. What are next steps? How many miles on it? Sending it to prefix for a 9L?

[Mikey]

I was going to say, I never heard a clutch sound like that before. I've had clutch springs come loose and they make a racket bouncing around. Also causing the clutch to not disengage making the car hard to start...As you tried starting the car, the car would start moving as if it was in gear.

Sorry that you had a bearing failure. What are next steps? How many miles on it? Sending it to prefix for a 9L?

18k. Just a rebuild, I'm tired of spending money on this car so will likely sell once all that is done

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

If there's bearing material in there that would be your cause but those noises sure don't sound like any engine-related noises I've ever heard



So for clarity you're basically saying clutch alignment in a Viper is making sure bellhousing runout is within spec? i think that's what you're saying but it almost sounds like you're modifying something on the input shaft.

"Clutch alignment" is a context driven phrase and is really just a lazy way of saying input shaft to pilot bearing alignment or also clutch disc to pilot bearing alignment. Clutch disc or discs to pilot bearing alignment super easy and only need basic tools to perform. " clutch alignment" context of Input shaft to pilot bearing alignment is not so easy. You need a couple very special tools and many times a mill . 1.dial indicator tool that bolts onto the back of the crank and locates off the pilot bearing. 2. A precisely machined plate that bolts onto bell housing where trans is installed. Hope this helps and makes a little more sense. If you have any questions or something didnt make sense you can always PM or we can start a new thread to discuss so other members can get info or ask questions.

[Gen5snake]

18k. Just a rebuild, I'm tired of spending money on this car so will likely sell once all that is done

I get it. I've had cars that were money pits....for me the cars with the aftermarket turbo or supercharged kits were complete money pits. I actually got the Viper because it was naturally aspirated fun...less to go wrong....so I thought. Good luck Mikey.

[Scott_in_fl]

Unfortunately, I've been there, done that. Sorry to not have seen this thread sooner, but I've described this situation in another thread, what it sounds like, and how it progresses. Yours is a classic case of bearing failure in my experience. Oil starvation was the issue (as is the issue with 99% of these). Mine was removed from the car, sent out to Prefix and came back better than ever. Good luck to getting back on the road soon! And then, check your oil every time you take out the car (if you drive infrequently) or at least each week if you daily it. Keep it 1/2 quart overfilled.

https://driveviper.com/forums/threads/19589-Identifying-a-weird-noise-at-idle/page2?highlight=bearing+sound+scott_in_fl

[ViperGeorge]

You didn't say what year car you have. Did it go through the R28 check? If it did and if it passed it would have a 10 year powertrain warranty.

[Lawineer]

You didn't say what year car you have. Did it go through the R28 check? If it did and if it passed it would have a 10 year powertrain warranty.

It's a 15. That' STILL doesn't sound anything like rod knock.

[ViperGeorge]

It's a 15. That' STILL doesn't sound anything like rod knock.

Maybe not but the metal shavings are certainly a sign that something is seriously wrong in the engine.

[StrokerAce]

Maybe calve guides, collapsed lifter, bent valve?

[Mikey]

It had zero symptoms prior to that night, I would have thought there would have been some symptoms

[ViperGeorge]

My understanding is that if it is cam journals then the block needs to be replaced. Anyone know if this is true?

[Mikey]

My understanding is that if it is cam journals then the block needs to be replaced. Anyone know if this is true?

Fml, new block is about 10k, isn't it?

Nvm spoke to Kevin again, he's pretty confident if anything he can take care of it