Behind the scenes of an open test day viper track car build DAY 1

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

DAY 1 2018 Car arrives from woodhouse. ACR-E, 9L. Hate to say "bone stock" because it would be like saying Max Verstappen, Jim Clark and Dale Earnhardt "drove cars", so we will say "No TKO MODS "
Woodhouse great people and a real class act. Im sure most everyone on the VOA knows this already. We have had a few customers purchase vehicles from woodhouse, always 5 star service
51997

[Tay]

Should be a fun build.

Whatever happened to your throttle/rev match combo kit? Did you scrap it?

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

Should be a fun build.

Whatever happened to your throttle/rev match combo kit? Did you scrap it?

Its been a fun build so far.

We are still working on the blip down cut up system; We are trying to make it so anyone can install the system easily. We have it installed on a few racecars and street cars and it works perfectly. We are also in the middle of a large shop expansion so product development is suffering a bit.

[Tay]

Its been a fun build so far.

We are still working on the blip down cut up system; We are trying to make it so anyone can install the system easily. We have it installed on a few racecars and street cars and it works perfectly. We are also in the middle of a large shop expansion so product development is suffering a bit.

Great. Looking forward to it.

[Arizona Vipers]

:fpopcorn:

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

:fpopcorn:

We think you spurred this build on a Arizona. After we finished the cage and cell for your car and the customer saw what you were doing he was jiffy poppin; His Street car/open test day car build got turned up a bit

[Arizona Vipers]

What all is going to do? Is this Josh's car???

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

What all is going to do? Is this Josh's car???

Its a customer we have had since day one. We have built lots of cars for him and campaigned cars with him in various series amateur and pro. This build will be more of fun track car he can drive to or trailer to an open test day, event, or to work.
Factory chassis with some basic mods.
exotic engines. de-stroked viper v10 normally aspirated Running on Motec It will have TKO ITB on it, TKO headers, TKO valve cover spacers TKO dry sump system. Its built to run on pump gas or race fuel ( 100 octane)
Full cage
30 gallon fuel cell
Holinger sequential 6 speed close ratio trans 1:1 6th gear
TKO ARHC system with Dbl adjust racing shocks
TKO no bind sway bar pillow blocks and adjustable down links
TKO aero package ( high down force)
TKO racing seat and mount systems
TKO poly carbonite windows
TKO fire system
Factory AC system stripped down to basics
Lots of our oil cooler systems, trans , motor, dif
TKO/pro-shift blip down ignition cut up
and Alot of one off or limited production fabricated parts we do will also be on this car, you will see in the progress pics of the car. It will look pretty much like a stock 5th gen viper ACR-E street car or like a GT2 car with no HP restrictions you can drive to work with an emphasis on easy service, reliability, and cheap to run ( cheaper to run)

[Snakebit10]

That sounds like a dream build. Cant wait to see the progression of this beauty. Doesnt sound like he is doing any extreme lightening so he is keeping the streetcar comfort. When you say "Factory AC system stripped down to basics", that sounds like it will still work like stock just simplified i.e. less weight?

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

That sounds like a dream build. Cant wait to see the progression of this beauty. Doesnt sound like he is doing any extreme lightening so he is keeping the streetcar comfort. When you say "Factory AC system stripped down to basics", that sounds like it will still work like stock just simplified i.e. less weight?

AC is just about the only " street car comfort " left and a must have for what this customer is going to do with this car. Pretty much a factory AC unit that we stripped down to the minimum and then fabricated specific ducting for driver cooling areas. Still have some of the weight of the AC unit but having a more comfortable driver more then makes up for the weight penalty.

[Arizona Vipers]

AC is just about the only " street car comfort " left and a must have for what this customer is going to do with this car. Pretty much a factory AC unit that we stripped down to the minimum and then fabricated specific ducting for driver cooling areas. Still have some of the weight of the AC unit but having a more comfortable driver more then makes up for the weight penalty.

When I took my A/C off everything combined weighed only 12 lbs. Compressor, lines, condenser etc. I was shocked. Dodge did such a good job keeping everything light on this car. The main benefit of taking it off is the condenser blocks have of the radiator.

[Arizona Vipers]

TKO what are the details on the polycarbonate windows? Is this windshield? Or hatch and side windows too?

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

TKO what are the details on the polycarbonate windows? Is this windshield? Or hatch and side windows too?

Front window is still safety glass. Safety glass works alot better and lasts alot longer for this application. No real penalty for glass vs poly-carb front window. Rear hatch we dont have a solution yet in poly-carb, pretty dang light already ( scary light to be honest). Side window we do out of poly-carb and they install pretty much into your factory window tracks. Little bit of weight saving vs glass, but more for safety, aero and some rule book stuff.

[Arizona Vipers]

Front window is still safety glass. Safety glass works alot better and lasts alot longer for this application. No real penalty for glass vs poly-carb front window. Rear hatch we dont have a solution yet in poly-carb, pretty dang light already ( scary light to be honest). Side window we do out of poly-carb and they install pretty much into your factory window tracks. Little bit of weight saving vs glass, but more for safety, aero and some rule book stuff.

yeah the rear glass is paper thin and extremely light. The door glass is too, I weighed the glass and regulators etc, everything only weighed 2.7 pounds per side. The glass is really thin, I think it was right around 1lb each. Sometimes I wish I kept them on.
The windshield was really thin too, that's why it cracks so easily. Lexan only saved 8 lbs for me.

[GTS Dean]

AC is just about the only " street car comfort " left and a must have for what this customer is going to do with this car. Pretty much a factory AC unit that we stripped down to the minimum and then fabricated specific ducting for driver cooling areas. Still have some of the weight of the AC unit but having a more comfortable driver more then makes up for the weight penalty.

The Monroney sheet for the GT-3 SRT Vipers lists air conditioning as STANDARD. Ben Keating's Daytona winning car that ran last summer at the Reunion had functional A/C.

[Lawineer]

The Monroney sheet for the GT-3 SRT Vipers lists air conditioning as STANDARD. Ben Keating's Daytona winning car that ran last summer at the Reunion had functional A/C.

I think the rules now set maximum in cabin temperatures. It was kind of silly NOT to have AC. If everyone has it, it's not advantage or disadvantage. It just means everyone is safer, more comfortable and I dont need darn cool suit.

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

yeah the rear glass is paper thin and extremely light. The door glass is too, I weighed the glass and regulators etc, everything only weighed 2.7 pounds per side. The glass is really thin, I think it was right around 1lb each. Sometimes I wish I kept them on.
The windshield was really thin too, that's why it cracks so easily. Lexan only saved 8 lbs for me.

Auto makers have been making thinner and thinner glass over last few decades to save weight and up MPG and of course sweeten the bottom line; The thinner glass kinda helps for what some of us are doing but also requires some creativity. You definitely want to keep side windows if you can. The drag caused by no side windows and the flow disruption is alot more then you think.

[Cody's Car Conundrum]

The Monroney sheet for the GT-3 SRT Vipers lists air conditioning as STANDARD. Ben Keating's Daytona winning car that ran last summer at the Reunion had functional A/C. Did someone say excuse to post Ben Keating's GT3-R :D

52022

[13COBRA]

Did someone say excuse to post Ben Keating's GT3-R :D

52022


Did he run it unrestricted last year?

[Mikey]

What all does it take to get a car ready for the track, not necessarily just a Viper?

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

What all does it take to get a car ready for the track, not necessarily just a Viper?

Good question Mikey. Really depends on what your doing with the car. There are the basics rules to setup and prep everyone follows ( should follow) from F1 to amateur . Then there are the more specific check lists and rituals. Do you have a specific car you thinking about prepping for the track???

[GTS Dean]

Did he run it unrestricted last year?

Ben did not elaborate much on the motor, but said it was not far from stock and not running restrictions. I'm pretty sure it is dry sumped. He couldn't pull those kinds of laps on a normal oil system.

[ViperGeorge]

What all does it take to get a car ready for the track, not necessarily just a Viper?

To add to what TKO has said, what type of track event are you planning to prepare for? Occasional lapping day, time trials, door to door road racing, drag racing, ovals, rovals, etc. Also what is your experience level? If you are just starting out the biggest thing you can do to prepare the car for the track is to prepare yourself for the track. Instruction, seat time, go slow to go fast. I would say that for me the basics if you are just looking to track your car on a lapping day I would do the following:

1) Change your engine oil. 15w50 was recommended by Dick Winkles for tracking your Viper.
2) Flush your brake fluid and use a high quality Dot 4 high temp fluid such as Motul 600.
3) Upgrade your brake pads to racing pads (relatively cheap insurance against brake fade). I use Raybestos ST45s in front and ST43s in the rear. Bed them in before hitting the track.
4) Check your rotors for cracks, replace if you find any (not the surface cracking that you'll see everywhere but a crack that appears to go into the rotor).
5) Make sure your tires are in good condition and check the pressures. I find that shooting for 34 hot pressures on street tires seems to work well for me. With the Hoosiers or Kumhos I generally start at 26 cold. Some people start lower. For PZeros or Michelin PS4s I start at 28-29.
6) 6 point or better harnesses will hold you in place so you won't be fighting the car in every turn. Many people say you should have a roll bar though if you use 6 point harnesses in case of a rollover. My understanding is that the Viper has a fairly strong structure in the roof but I'm not an expert.
7) A good helmet is essential. If you have a cheap head buy a cheap helmet. I like wearing a balaclava (head sock) as it helps keep the helmet fresher. I also use a Necksgen neck support.
8) Racing gloves help insure a good grip on the steering wheel. Your hands can get sweaty.
9) A good pair of racing shoes will allow better pedal feel and help prevent you from hitting two pedals at once since the pedal box is so tight on Vipers.
10) Personally I always wear a racing suit. I was on the grid in the One Lap of America one time when a Corvette came around to the front straight smoking. Guy pulled onto the grass, jumped out, and his jeans had caught fire from a broken oil line.
11) Make sure your brake lights work.
12) Make sure your wheels are torqued properly.
13) Tape your headlights or expect them to get pelted with sand and tire marbles.
14) Check your wheel alignment. More camber helps. I use the stock ACR alignment in my ACR and it seems to work well.
15) Install a fire extinguisher in the car. This is often required by the group or track sponsoring the lapping day.
16) Remove driver's floor mat.
17) Remove any loose items in car.
18) Grease your ball joints.

That is my basic list for a lapping day. As you get better you might consider a set of DOT R tires like Toyo Proxies RRs or Hoosiers. If you are preparing the car for other events like time trials or racing then the organizing body would have rules as to what you can and cannot do. By the way SRT recommends diff coolers for sessions longer than I think 25 minutes. More and better safety equipment is always a plus.

[Whitey]

To add to what TKO has said, what type of track event are you planning to prepare for? Occasional lapping day, time trials, door to door road racing, drag racing, ovals, rovals, etc. Also what is your experience level? If you are just starting out the biggest thing you can do to prepare the car for the track is to prepare yourself for the track. Instruction, seat time, go slow to go fast. I would say that for me the basics if you are just looking to track your car on a lapping day I would do the following:

1) Change your engine oil. 15w50 was recommended by Dick Winkles for tracking your Viper.
2) Flush your brake fluid and use a high quality Dot 4 high temp fluid such as Motul 600.
3) Upgrade your brake pads to racing pads (relatively cheap insurance against brake fade). I use Raybestos ST45s in front and ST43s in the rear. Bed them in before hitting the track.
4) Check your rotors for cracks, replace if you find any (not the surface cracking that you'll see everywhere but a crack that appears to go into the rotor).
5) Make sure your tires are in good condition and check the pressures. I find that shooting for 34 hot pressures on street tires seems to work well for me. With the Hoosiers or Kumhos I generally start at 26 cold. Some people start lower. For PZeros or Michelin PS4s I start at 28-29.
6) 6 point or better harnesses will hold you in place so you won't be fighting the car in every turn. Many people say you should have a roll bar though if you use 6 point harnesses in case of a rollover. My understanding is that the Viper has a fairly strong structure in the roof but I'm not an expert.
7) A good helmet is essential. If you have a cheap head buy a cheap helmet. I like wearing a balaclava (head sock) as it helps keep the helmet fresher. I also use a Necksgen neck support.
8) Racing gloves help insure a good grip on the steering wheel. Your hands can get sweaty.
9) A good pair of racing shoes will allow better pedal feel and help prevent you from hitting two pedals at once since the pedal box is so tight on Vipers.
10) Personally I always wear a racing suit. I was on the grid in the One Lap of America one time when a Corvette came around to the front straight smoking. Guy pulled onto the grass, jumped out, and his jeans had caught fire from a broken oil line.
11) Make sure your brake lights work.
12) Make sure your wheels are torqued properly.
13) Tape your headlights or expect them to get pelted with sand and tire marbles.
14) Check your wheel alignment. More camber helps. I use the stock ACR alignment in my ACR and it seems to work well.
15) Install a fire extinguisher in the car. This is often required by the group or track sponsoring the lapping day.
16) Remove driver's floor mat.
17) Remove any loose items in car.
18) Grease your ball joints.

That is my basic list for a lapping day. As you get better you might consider a set of DOT R tires like Toyo Proxies RRs or Hoosiers. If you are preparing the car for other events like time trials or racing then the organizing body would have rules as to what you can and cannot do. By the way SRT recommends diff coolers for sessions longer than I think 25 minutes. More and better safety equipment is always a plus.

Sage counsel ^^^

[Mikey]

Good question Mikey. Really depends on what your doing with the car. There are the basics rules to setup and prep everyone follows ( should follow) from F1 to amateur . Then there are the more specific check lists and rituals. Do you have a specific car you thinking about prepping for the track???

I'm thinking of picking up an already built c5, something with JUST enough power until I'm comfortable


To add to what TKO has said, what type of track event are you planning to prepare for? Occasional lapping day, time trials, door to door road racing, drag racing, ovals, rovals, etc. Also what is your experience level? If you are just starting out the biggest thing you can do to prepare the car for the track is to prepare yourself for the track. Instruction, seat time, go slow to go fast. I would say that for me the basics if you are just looking to track your car on a lapping day I would do the following:

1) Change your engine oil. 15w50 was recommended by Dick Winkles for tracking your Viper.
2) Flush your brake fluid and use a high quality Dot 4 high temp fluid such as Motul 600.
3) Upgrade your brake pads to racing pads (relatively cheap insurance against brake fade). I use Raybestos ST45s in front and ST43s in the rear. Bed them in before hitting the track.
4) Check your rotors for cracks, replace if you find any (not the surface cracking that you'll see everywhere but a crack that appears to go into the rotor).
5) Make sure your tires are in good condition and check the pressures. I find that shooting for 34 hot pressures on street tires seems to work well for me. With the Hoosiers or Kumhos I generally start at 26 cold. Some people start lower. For PZeros or Michelin PS4s I start at 28-29.
6) 6 point or better harnesses will hold you in place so you won't be fighting the car in every turn. Many people say you should have a roll bar though if you use 6 point harnesses in case of a rollover. My understanding is that the Viper has a fairly strong structure in the roof but I'm not an expert.
7) A good helmet is essential. If you have a cheap head buy a cheap helmet. I like wearing a balaclava (head sock) as it helps keep the helmet fresher. I also use a Necksgen neck support.
8) Racing gloves help insure a good grip on the steering wheel. Your hands can get sweaty.
9) A good pair of racing shoes will allow better pedal feel and help prevent you from hitting two pedals at once since the pedal box is so tight on Vipers.
10) Personally I always wear a racing suit. I was on the grid in the One Lap of America one time when a Corvette came around to the front straight smoking. Guy pulled onto the grass, jumped out, and his jeans had caught fire from a broken oil line.
11) Make sure your brake lights work.
12) Make sure your wheels are torqued properly.
13) Tape your headlights or expect them to get pelted with sand and tire marbles.
14) Check your wheel alignment. More camber helps. I use the stock ACR alignment in my ACR and it seems to work well.
15) Install a fire extinguisher in the car. This is often required by the group or track sponsoring the lapping day.
16) Remove driver's floor mat.
17) Remove any loose items in car.
18) Grease your ball joints.

That is my basic list for a lapping day. As you get better you might consider a set of DOT R tires like Toyo Proxies RRs or Hoosiers. If you are preparing the car for other events like time trials or racing then the organizing body would have rules as to what you can and cannot do. By the way SRT recommends diff coolers for sessions longer than I think 25 minutes. More and better safety equipment is always a plus.

Do you usually pick up insurance for your track days? I don't plan on running the Vioer anytime soon, but I'd like to at least once

[ViperGeorge]

I'm thinking of picking up an already built c5, something with JUST enough power until I'm comfortable



Do you usually pick up insurance for your track days? I don't plan on running the Vioer anytime soon, but I'd like to at least once

No I do not buy insurance. It is very expensive with very high deductables. The policies typically max out at a car value of around $150K. Not having it keeps me from overdriving the car.

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

I'm thinking of picking up an already built c5, something with JUST enough power until I'm comfortable



Do you usually pick up insurance for your track days? I don't plan on running the Vioer anytime soon, but I'd like to at least once

Morning Mikey
C5 is a good little track car to start off you can definitely grow into if your a beginner. Vettes are cheaper to run, lots of parts and info available, and the platform is relatively stable.
Not sure how much experience you have or what your goals are so here are the down and dirty basics for a simple open track day prep and setup

BASIC PREP
1. Put the car up and have a look at everything. If its a new car you need get real familiar with it so you know when something isn't right
2. Nut and bolt ( inspect)...simply means check make sure all the nuts and bolts are secure and tight especially the Jesus nuts. Look at all your hoses, lines , belts and seasl while your doing your nut and bolt
3. Change all your fluids before you goto track so your starting off with fresh fluids
4. Fresh brake pads and new tires always a great idea . Tape your wheel weights
5. Sounds silly but vacuum the inside of your car drivers compartment. Any crap in the drivers compartment always ends up in your eyes at speed on track in the worst place possible.
6. Clean windows and mirrors
7. Bring the same tools you used for your nut and bolt. Get yourself a simple little tool box that fits in the car. Floor jack is also a great idea, wheel chalk, tire pressure gauge and extra fluids, engine oil, brake fluid and radiator fluid

BASIC SETUP
1. use the factory recommended suspension settings to start off and put in another 1 degree of negative camber, If you have adjustable shocks set in middle
2. Nitro in your tires if you can. Drive to track on recommended tire pressure and then set tire pressures at track.
3. Have fun. If your a beginner first time on track keep is simple and safe.

[13COBRA]

No I do not buy insurance. It is very expensive with very high deductables. The policies typically max out at a car value of around $150K. Not having it keeps me from overdriving the car.

Agreed. I did it for 3 weekends and realized that I would be better off just self-insuring.

If I had track insurance for every time I was on track in the last 7 years, I would've bought my car 3 times over by now haha

[Lawineer]

What all does it take to get a car ready for the track, not necessarily just a Viper?

If you are just getting into tracking your car, and you want to do it somewhat regularly (otherwise, just take out your viper, have fun and call it good):

1) You don't need a full blown track car. Or anything close to it. A car with good brakes (just race pads and fluid is prob enough for a while) and fluid and a set of 200TW "track day" tires is all you need for a while.

You want a reliable car that is cheap to operate. You don't want to spend more time under the car than on the track. Get something you see a lot of on the track. Why? Because there's a reason a lot of people run them. There's a reason so many people use Miata, BRZ and Spec Boxter platforms. They are well sorted, cheap to run and take a ton of abuse. Adding power, slicks, blah blah blah is going to do nothing but make the car more difficult to drive and wear parts harder.

With slicks you will go through rotors, pads, bearings, bushing, joints, etc) much faster and you'll push the upper limit of the car higher, which isn't good for a beginner for a number of reasons. The point is to run faster laps because you are faster, not because the car is faster. goal is to make you faster, not the car faster.
Only exception I'd say is alignment. Negative camber will save you a lot of money in tires on the track.


2) Please skip the high HP stuff. Even mid pack Spec Miata drivers and Spec Boxter drivers are great drivers. Heck, look at the guys who race shifter karts. If you're mid pack, you're an awesome driver. None of them think they've "outgrown" their little 200hp cars. I've never once met a coach that thought it was a good idea to start with even 350hp.

My personal story rode a 1000RR until I got a 600RR. The rate at which I dropped lap times was about unbelievably higher. Then with cars, I drove Corvettes (C6 and 2x C7) I got a Miata and I dropped a ton of time in the Vette. Then I got a BRZ. While driving the vettes or the Viper has its own sort of fun from a raw adrenaline rush, it's much more fun for me to try to drive the BRZ as hard as I can. From a technical perspective, I enjoy the BRZ much more. I'm much more willing to push the envelope, my comfort zone, etc in a BRZ than a 700hp monster.

HP is also expensive. Everything costs more and wears out faster. I'm not sure if cost is a concern.


3) If you want to go full bore with racing suit and harness and all that, that's fine. I won't discourage safety. However, there's a reason most tracks don't require suits in a street car. They're full of fire retardant material and they're easy to get out of. A race car is down to the sheet metal, you're strapped in, wearing HANS device, probably need to pop off a steering wheel, climb out over a cage, etc. That's just me. I wear a suit in my race car, but not in my street cars.

Same thing with hardness, roll bar etc. It's exceptionally difficult to roll a car if you're not driving like an asshole an HPDE. I suppose you could if you tried, but without wheel to wheel contact, only passing in the straights and the tracks we have here (ECR, MSR, etc), it's difficult. If you get a harness, you'll need a rollbar and a HANS. No roll bar and if you do actually roll, you'll snap your neck. Harness and no Hans gives you a good chance of popping your head off your spine.
It's just a lot of crap to deal with as a beginner. Again, I won't discourage safety, but it's far from a "must have."

[ViperGeorge]

Ralph Gilles has stated (on the old VCA site) that the Gen 5 has rollover protection that satisfies government rollover standards. You can't see it because it is under the headliner and I believe is the attachment point for the rear hatch. I couldn't find a picture of it but I have seen it in the past. While not as good as a real roll bar it does provide pretty substantial protection in a rollover. In fact Federal standards say the rollover protection must, at a minimum, be able to withstand 3 times the unloaded weight of the car. That's about 10,000 pounds for the Viper.

Now I am not suggesting that you shouldn't have a roll bar if you use harnesses; that is up to every individual in terms of what risk they are willing to accept. For wheel to wheel racing for sure you will need rollover protection most likely a cage. For a lapping day where, as Lawineer correctly points out, the risk of rolling is reduced as hopefully you are less likely to be bumped I think the OEM rollover protection is adequate with harnesses.

If you rolled a Gen 5 Viper hard enough to collapse the roof and A pillars I don't think a 3 point harness will keep you alive. You will be thrown around the inside pretty hard likely smacking your noggin on the roof and breaking your neck. With a harness you might actually be able to maintain better control of the car as you won't be moving around so much. I think Ralph said that is why he still used a 6 point and Hans in a stock Gen 5. It would seem odd that the Viper has attachment points for 6 points built in if they didn't expect them to use them. None the less in a rollover your best chance for survival is a roll bar with harnesses and a neck support. Next Spring I will probably install a roll bar in my ACR.

I agree with Lawineer that the more safety equipment the better off you are. That is why I recommend a good light helmet (heavier helmets increase neck fatigue), neck support (there are some that work with 3 point belts such as the Simpson Hybrid), racing gloves, racing socks, racing shoes, and a fire extinguisher. Tow hooks while not per se a safety item are also a good addition. Check with IPSCO.org for them.

[Lawineer]

Every single car satisfies federal rollover standards.
Don’t get a harness without a roll bar.

[pMak26]

For those who have never taken their interior apart, this is the OEM roll over protection bar.

52024

[ViperGeorge]

Federal rollover standards were increased in 2012 from 1.5 times the weight of the car to 3 times. Consumer Reports states - "A collapsing roof can kill or injure people no matter how well they are otherwise restrained. NHTSA has estimated that a collapsing roof kills about 600 and injures about 900 people every year, even though they were belted in." Note the people that died were all belted in using 3 point belts. Again, if the roof collapses your chance of survival goes down dramatically regardless of what type of belt you are wearing.

I wonder if the recommendations on not using harnesses without roll bars came about prior to the government rollover standards which were started in 2009. Roofs would have been more likely to collapse on cars that did not meet the standard.

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

Personally I would never go on track in a car without a proper roll cage, harnesses , window net, fire system and hans device. No production car has sufficient safety built into it for track use; This is not an opinion this is just a simple engineering and vehicle dynamics fact.

[RedTanRT/10]

Agreed. I did it for 3 weekends and realized that I would be better off just self-insuring.

If I had track insurance for every time I was on track in the last 7 years, I would've bought my car 3 times over by now haha

I'm with your Nick and self insure. Up till now I have 2 incidents, the first was a guy who hit me in a braking zone and did $2k worth of damage, I basically told him he F'd up, so did the organizer and got him to pay over 1 year. (did screw up my weekend!) 2nd I ran over a spinning spindle and did $3k in damage. that's over 50 weekends so like you, I would have paid stupid money for all that insurance and probably would been able to claim since the damage was so minor

TKO, sorry to jump into to this thread off subject.

On a flight now back from Detroit and I will reach out Monday to see if you can get my Comp Coupe back on track! Thanks, Mike

[ViperGeorge]

Personally I would never go on track in a car without a proper roll cage, harnesses , window net, fire system and hans device. No production car has sufficient safety built into it for track use; This is not an opinion this is just a simple engineering and vehicle dynamics fact.

So are you saying that no one should ever take a street car to a lapping day and that only a fully prepped race car is safe on track? If you are talking about wheel to wheel racing then ok but simply going to the track to enjoy your Viper shouldn't require you to gut the car. If everyone followed that advice there wouldn't be enough cars going to the track to keep the tracks viable.

[Lawineer]

Federal rollover standards were increased in 2012 from 1.5 times the weight of the car to 3 times. Consumer Reports states - "A collapsing roof can kill or injure people no matter how well they are otherwise restrained. NHTSA has estimated that a collapsing roof kills about 600 and injures about 900 people every year, even though they were belted in." Note the people that died were all belted in using 3 point belts. Again, if the roof collapses your chance of survival goes down dramatically regardless of what type of belt you are wearing.

I wonder if the recommendations on not using harnesses without roll bars came about prior to the government rollover standards which were started in 2009. Roofs would have been more likely to collapse on cars that did not meet the standard.


Your risk of dying in roof crush increases significantly if you're in a 5/6pt harness. 3pt is design so your can go forward/down and you can "submarine" down as well when a roof crushes, depending on how it crushes. A harness will hold your neck in prime position to make it a load bearing component of the vehicle.

Rolling the car at even moderately high speeds can easily crush a "3x" pillar.


Personally I would never go on track in a car without a proper roll cage, harnesses , window net, fire system and hans device. No production car has sufficient safety built into it for track use; This is not an opinion this is just a simple engineering and vehicle dynamics fact.


Hitting a wall or another car at 60mph is the same on the track or the street (maybe worse on the street as tracks have tire barriers and armco). It's not like people don't get t-bone on the street at 50mph when someone runs a red light. Presumably, you have a greater chance of that at the track, but it's not like physics changes.

With that said, there's a big difference between the stuff you guys build and the type of track usage they see and doing an HPDE. Having a full blown race spec car is a bit overkill for a novice track day. Cars are getting faster and faster though. Just another reason to avoid 700hp cars for your intro to HPDE.

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

So are you saying that no one should ever take a street car to a lapping day and that only a fully prepped race car is safe on track? If you are talking about wheel to wheel racing then ok but simply going to the track to enjoy your Viper shouldn't require you to gut the car. If everyone followed that advice there wouldn't be enough cars going to the track to keep the tracks viable.

Remember I said "Personally I would never go on track in a car without a proper roll cage, harnesses , window net, fire system and hans device". I would never discourage anyone from driving on track or racing; In fact i think the world would be a much better place if everyone clicked off a few laps every so often.

[ViperGeorge]

Remember I said "Personally I would never go on track in a car without a proper roll cage, harnesses , window net, fire system and hans device". I would never discourage anyone from driving on track or racing; In fact i think the world would be a much better place if everyone clicked off a few laps every so often.

Got it. It just sounded like advice or a recommendation given the discussion especially coming from you guys who know a thing or two about tracking.

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

Got it. It just sounded like advice or a recommendation given the discussion especially coming from you guys who know a thing or two about tracking.

It was definitely personal advice and a recommendation. Just like " dont piss into the wind" and "dont pet stray dogs" are advice and recommendations.

[Mikey]

It was definitely personal advice and a recommendation. Just like "dont piss into the wind" and "dont pet stray dogs" are advice and recommendations.

C'mon, live a little

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

C'mon, live a little

I pet stray dogs in my church clothes

[ViperGeorge]

It was definitely personal advice and a recommendation. Just like " dont piss into the wind" and "dont pet stray dogs" are advice and recommendations.

Sorry but then you are recommending that people don't track their street car without all of that safety equipment. I agree that more safety equipment is always better but saying it is like "don't piss in the wind" is the same as saying "don't do it". Especially coming from you guys as people absolutely respect your track creds. No one would piss in the wind on purpose. I would typically not piss in the wind, although sometimes ... I digress, but I am comfortable tracking my Viper. I wouldn't think about wheel to wheel racing it without all the safety equipment but taking it to the track for some fun seems reasonable. Of course I am not a 10/10ths driver.

I always try to drive well within my limits and I don't pass people in corners, I only pass them when I am confident they see me and I have the room to do so. In fact I have now tended to favor semi private test and tune days at my home track where me and 1 or 2 other friends have the track to ourselves. More expensive but safer and you get more traffic free laps. As I tell people, I would be faster if I didn't have so much to live for.

[Lawineer]

Sorry but then you are recommending that people don't track their street car without all of that safety equipment. I agree that more safety equipment is always better but saying it is like "don't piss in the wind" is the same as saying "don't do it". Especially coming from you guys as people absolutely respect your track creds. No one would piss in the wind on purpose. I would typically not piss in the wind, although sometimes ... I digress, but I am comfortable tracking my Viper. I wouldn't think about wheel to wheel racing it without all the safety equipment but taking it to the track for some fun seems reasonable. Of course I am not a 10/10ths driver.

I always try to drive well within my limits and I don't pass people in corners, I only pass them when I am confident they see me and I have the room to do so. In fact I have now tended to favor semi private test and tune days at my home track where me and 1 or 2 other friends have the track to ourselves. More expensive but safer and you get more traffic free laps. As I tell people, I would be faster if I didn't have so much to live for.

My only excuse is money and driver skill!

[Arizona Vipers]

Ralph Gilles has stated (on the old VCA site) that the Gen 5 has rollover protection that satisfies government rollover standards. You can't see it because it is under the headliner and I believe is the attachment point for the rear hatch. I couldn't find a picture of it but I have seen it in the past. While not as good as a real roll bar it does provide pretty substantial protection in a rollover. In fact Federal standards say the rollover protection must, at a minimum, be able to withstand 3 times the unloaded weight of the car. That's about 10,000 pounds for the Viper.

Now I am not suggesting that you shouldn't have a roll bar if you use harnesses; that is up to every individual in terms of what risk they are willing to accept. For wheel to wheel racing for sure you will need rollover protection most likely a cage. For a lapping day where, as Lawineer correctly points out, the risk of rolling is reduced as hopefully you are less likely to be bumped I think the OEM rollover protection is adequate with harnesses.

If you rolled a Gen 5 Viper hard enough to collapse the roof and A pillars I don't think a 3 point harness will keep you alive. You will be thrown around the inside pretty hard likely smacking your noggin on the roof and breaking your neck. With a harness you might actually be able to maintain better control of the car as you won't be moving around so much. I think Ralph said that is why he still used a 6 point and Hans in a stock Gen 5. It would seem odd that the Viper has attachment points for 6 points built in if they didn't expect them to use them. None the less in a rollover your best chance for survival is a roll bar with harnesses and a neck support. Next Spring I will probably install a roll bar in my ACR.

The factory hidden roll bar is indeed very stout. I took mine out when the cage went in. I posted pics before on this forum, but can't find it now