Collapsed hydraulic lifter - advise, views and opinions wanted

[MADMAX]

So here's today's problem - cylinder #10 has a collapsed lifter.
Oh dear, what a b#*(/*£! - looks like a head off job - or is it!!!!!

My query is, can I replace this lifter without removing the cylinder head?
Sounds like a crazy question given its location but bear with me for a bit......

A couple if years ago I fitted gen3 heads and used Cometic mls head gaskets.
Whilst looking for a replacement head gasket I noticed vendors advertise the following point:-

“All of our Head Gasket designs have been altered to allow the removal of your Lifters without the need for removing your heads. This is an extremely important feature for cars running aggressive profiles and high spring pressures. The ability to replace lifters without head removal is worth over 10 hours of labor and $300 in gaskets for each occurance of head removal this feature saves you. Included at NO COST."

"Very interesting" me thinks - this could save a whole lotta time and trouble but HOW?

Has anyone ever replaced lifters with heads still fitted? Achieved it? Or tried it and failed?
What experience have you got with lifters, good or bad?

So, back to #10 cylinder - when I removed the rocker cover I found the collapsed lifter had allowed the pushrod to work free - minimal resulting damage to see at this stage (having not yet started any major engine disassembly) although one broken component is the lifter yoke, see photo (the yoke half retaining lifter #10 has broken away) - I feel this is a result of the pushrods 'exodus' not a cause - not having a joke there could also be to my advantage, for the moment, we'll see.

http://i61.tinypic.com/68tvdu.jpg

The next photo is of the top of cylinder #8 - you can see the half of yoke (and retaining bolt) are still fitted - this lifter is also working fine.

http://i62.tinypic.com/1zgu6f6.jpg

So there we have it.
Any wonderful words of wisdom gratefully received.

Ade

[Fatboy 18]

No idea what im talking about but could you remove the lifter with a telescopic magnet tool? Looks like its still going to be tight getting past the gasket?

At your service if you need me Ade :)

What worries me is where the other bit of that lifter yoke has disappeared to?

[plumcrazy]

i remember joseph dell saying he did it once. i imagine it was with a magnet of some kind.

[The Stig]

You do not need to remove the head. I replaced my cam and pulled every lifter out.

7/16 swivel socket swallow type (1/4 inch drive). cut off a small magnet and epoxy into top socket, this will pull the retaining bolt up and out when loosened.

use 2 telescoping magnet and lift retaining bar out. use same for pulling the lifter straight out and up. it is tricky , u will need two magnets to re install the bar. just take your time don't rush also remove the rocker and push rod from the other valve as it give you move working area with the magnets

[James430]

Good luck....I know a lot of people are using magnets on the lifters to put a cam in without removing the heads...let us know how it comes out...

[ViperTony]

I have Viper Specialty's gaskets under my heads. I did replace a lifter without removing the head. I used a combination of swivel and flex extensions to get to the retaining bolt/bar over the lifter. No easy but doable. If it's just for one lifter this approach is fine. But if replacing all lifters its easier to remove the heads.

As for a magnet, I used a Sears flexible magnet extension to pick up the lifter as well as put one back in. Easy to do.

4055

[MADMAX]

Many thanks for the feedback guys - it's certainly helping and much appreciated.

All I've managed to get time for so far is retrieval of lifter #10 using a magnet - I wasn't expecting it to come out quite so easily - I wasn't expecting it to look like this either :(

http://i59.tinypic.com/34dq6q1.jpg

Ah well - I wasn't really sure what a collapsed lifter looked like - guess I now know.

Nothing like a bit of foreign object retrieval to spice things up a bit.

Next job:- Oil pan off.

[plumcrazy]

hope the cam is ok

[Fatboy 18]

Yea, wonder where the other bits are?

[Thawk97]

I'm sure they broke off in tiny enough pieces that they just passed through with the exhaust - no biggie. What's today's date again?

[MADMAX]

I'm sure they broke off in tiny enough pieces that they just passed through with the exhaust - no biggie. What's today's date again?

LOL - yeh, I wish it was an April fool too..... :) - sadly not but I like the positive idea of "small enough pieces" - we'll see.

[MADMAX]

Removed the sump this eve and found a whole heap of bits - nothing present I wasn't expecting.

http://i57.tinypic.com/elbe4m.jpg

I'll take a closer look at the camshaft of #10 exhaust and do the same with #10 inlet when I get the lifter out, after I get the dog-bone off.
Man, getting down onto that dog-bone bolt is tricky - it's gonna try the patience of a saint.

[Fatboy 18]

Oh Boy, sorry to see that mate :(

[SNKEBIT]

That engine has to come out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am quite sure the cam has some marks in it. You want to take the engine apart and clean it all out. Why would you even take the chance??

[ViperTony]

That engine has to come out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am quite sure the cam has some marks in it. You want to take the engine apart and clean it all out. Why would you even take the chance??

Agreed. It sucks but the only way to be certain.

[plumcrazy]

before it causes much more damage and money

[C.J]

The lifter looks like it is a roller lifter...was that OEM?

[Viper Specialty]

Don't jump the gun guys.

Its likely the lifter damaged the cam, yes. However, you can do a fine job of determining if you found all of the pieces in this case by reassembling the lifter. Worst case, you can use 18 more pushrods/magnets to hold the lifters up, and remove the pan/timing cover, and replace the cam. Certainly beats pulling the entire engine for a failure like this. A mirror and a light would go a loooooong way towards looking for any unlikely collateral damage besides the cam itself.

[MADMAX]

Okay, a quick update, although a quick repair is not my plan - I'm gonna take my time and do this properly, no time pressure - all driving events cancelled.

The cam is goosed and will be coming out for replacement. The exhaust valve on #10 has contacted the piston, so that head is coming off too. More than likely remove drivers side head to facilitate new lifter installs, depending on condition of respective cam lobs and how successful I am at replacing lifters with the head fitted.

More to follow.

[ViperTony]

Okay, a quick update, although a quick repair is not my plan - I'm gonna take my time and do this properly, no time pressure - all driving events cancelled.

The cam is goosed and will be coming out for replacement. The exhaust valve on #10 has contacted the piston, so that head is coming off too. More than likely remove drivers side head to facilitate new lifter installs, depending on condition of respective cam lobs and how successful I am at replacing lifters with the head fitted.

More to follow.

While you're in there you might as well consider getting some cam and head work done, if you haven't already. Which lifters are you using? The slow-bleed version? Are you planning on upgrading the lifters or other components?


"While you're in there" and "might as well" - Courtesy of Plumcrazy :anonymous:

[MADMAX]

Woz thinkin about a better cam than a stock 708 replacement and maybe portin the heads a little more.

[MADMAX]

So the engine is now disassembled and in many parts, all bagged and labelled ready to go back together.
As originally thought, the cam is in a real bad way - I'm keen to share this information so you might benefit from my misfortune - I don't know, maybe if you can anticipate this failure.

Initial symptoms were odd coloured plugs - #10 was becoming a darker tan colour - others were mostly health tan but some were white and I just could not figure it out - I feel it might now have been because #10 exhaust gasses were getting into the inlet manifold and upsetting the emissions/electronics.

CAUSE:-
With 70,000 miles on the clock I would like to not see this type of wear but I am resigned to calling this failure across almost all the lobes as just WEAR. I don't think this wear is anything to do with the genIII head install project I did 3,000 miles ago - in fact, I'm certain #10 cam was excessively worn when I did the head project because that pushrod needed to be 1/8 longer!!! A warning sign I did not understand the significant of.

#10 exhaust cam lobe
http://i61.tinypic.com/28lx8xl.jpg

#7 & 8 lobes
http://i58.tinypic.com/kaiufm.jpg

The cam is a stock 708 from my 96GTS.
So I'm looking at a replacement and what options are available - decisions decisions...

I'd like something with a BIT more grunt but not too excessive - I wanna stay with stock slow-bleed lifters and valve springs.

BTW, I was dynoing almost 600BHP with this cam.

Ade.

[plumcrazy]

Woz thinkin about a better cam than a stock 708 replacement and maybe portin the heads a little more.

yup, might as well....

[steve911]

I just spent a ton of Money with Arrow getting motor parts and here is what I learned in the process that I believe will help you. The Stock "708" cam is machined cast steel.

THere are two other cams, one being cast with "a bit" more lift and duration, and a Billet Steel camshaft version. I bought the billet steel one. It is a work of art and I suspect will last a good long time. I have a bit heftier valve springs (not by much) but was assured by Todd that they would not affect the longevity of the lifters or cam. No pics of the cam prior to installing it though, sorry.

[ViperGTS]

...with all the metal parts in your engine I would pull it and have it disassembled and checked and rebuilt...send it to Arrow?

[Fatboy 18]

Could you not squeeze the engine parts into your and Barry's Suitcase when you attend VOA Home coming, then drop it off at Arrow? :D

[MADMAX]

I just spent a ton of Money with Arrow getting motor parts and here is what I learned in the process that I believe will help you. The Stock "708" cam is machined cast steel.

THere are two other cams, one being cast with "a bit" more lift and duration, and a Billet Steel camshaft version. I bought the billet steel one. It is a work of art and I suspect will last a good long time. I have a bit heftier valve springs (not by much) but was assured by Todd that they would not affect the longevity of the lifters or cam. No pics of the cam prior to installing it though, sorry.

Thanks for this - cast vs forged I guess - do you have any more info?

[MADMAX]

Could you not squeeze the engine parts into your and Barry's Suitcase when you attend VOA Home coming, then drop it off at Arrow? :D

LOL - no, it's my meccano set and only I'm allowed to play with it :)

[steve911]

Thanks for this - cast vs forged I guess - do you have any more info?

What kind of info are you looking for?

[MADMAX]

What kind of info are you looking for?

What are these two option? Guess it's Arrow products and I should talk to them.

[VIPER BAZ UK]

Todd is the guy i have spoke to at arrow... Very helpfull guy..

[ViperTony]

Madmax, my lifters shit to bed recently. I'm going to swap them out. Are you sticking with the '92-99 lifters or are you going with something else?

[95Viper]

Johnson Lifters are the ones you want to use.

[ViperTony]

Johnson Lifters are the ones you want to use.

Specifically which one and why use them? There are three that I know of produced by Johnson for Viper. (1.) Retro fit reduced travel (2.) Retro Fit short travel and (3.) SPT Performance custom version with stabilizer links. The current Mopar low-bleed lifters are produced in Mexico but available now.

EDIT: I called Johnson and spoke with the engineer that designed the Viper lifter. He recommends part#2313V10R for non-racing applications and it's designed for a 47 second bleed down test (using bleed down fluid). I believe the Mopar low-bleed lifter was designed for 7 seconds. The Johnson lifter is the one available through SPT. Johnson recommends using oil no greater weight than 10w/40 with these lifters.

[MADMAX]

Okey guys-n-dolls - the rebuild is well underway.

All the shit is cleaned up and broken bits accounted for.
New compcam cam in - new oil pump - new hydraulic lifters.
Timing chain cover back on and balance damper fitted.

Head install begins tomorrow - can't remember what torque settings I used last time with the cometic gasket and ARP studs.
Any ideas? The book says 90 ftlbs which I guess would be for bolts but I'm using nuts on studs. Would this make any difference?

http://i61.tinypic.com/nl4hsy.jpg

[MADMAX]

At last, my rebuild project is complete and she's back on the road again - queue the shit weather - it's been raining for 48hrs solid.
I did manage to get an hour on the road Saturday and check everything feels and sounds correct and it's all seems good.
I'll run a few miles on mineral oil then change out for mobil 1.

Still puzzled though not knowing the true cause of why the cam and lifters had worn like they did.

Hope nobody else is suffering the same problem.

Ade.

[Fatboy 18]

Great to hear you got the car back together Ade :dude3:

Look forward to getting out for a few more runs.........If it stops raining :(

[Whozaka]

I'm reading this post. I was planning on doing a engine rebuild on my own as a preventative measure for my gen 3. I have 61k on the clock. I wanted to know if you did the work yourself and how difficult was it really? I know it'll be time consuming but as far as how hard it was on your own?

I really don't want to pay a shop to do something I can do myself, but if there is too much margin for error with OEM parts and sizes I might have to.

[Fatboy 18]

"Madmax" has moved away from the Viper world now. So its not likely he will post here.

Stick a post up in the Gen 3 section, Im sure people will chime in. :)

[99RT10]

I'm reading this post. I was planning on doing a engine rebuild on my own as a preventative measure for my gen 3. I have 61k on the clock. I wanted to know if you did the work yourself and how difficult was it really? I know it'll be time consuming but as far as how hard it was on your own?

I really don't want to pay a shop to do something I can do myself, but if there is too much margin for error with OEM parts and sizes I might have to.


If the car is still running correctly and not showing obvious signs of wear(blue smoke/burning oil), why rebuild? Unless you're going for big N/A power?

[Whozaka]

I'm still new to the viper world. So I wasnt sure what to expect. if these engines just fail randomly?

[99RT10]

I'm still new to the viper world. So I wasnt sure what to expect. if these engines just fail randomly?

Do the basic maintenance, they will last forever. :D

[Whozaka]

Do the basic maintenance, they will last forever. :D

For real? I've read many different things. Some say they will last forever as long as you drive them stock and do basic items. Others say you need to replace everything for longevity. I'm at 62k miles right now.

[Fatboy 18]

For real? I've read many different things. Some say they will last forever as long as you drive them stock and do basic items. Others say you need to replace everything for longevity. I'm at 62k miles right now.
That all? Im at 84k + Been out driving the car today :drive: (Im a stock creampuff)

[Whozaka]

That all? Im at 84k + Been out driving the car today :drive: (Im a stock creampuff)

You make me so happy about that. My biggest worry is the engine failing over something I could have done work to myself to prevent it.