Curious about HPDE Race Schools Does the Instructor Drive Your Car

[Rare Snake]

46396

Hey All,

This is a bit off topic from just Vipers, but I am looking for anyone's opinions and experiences with performance driving schools, specifically... who drives the car in most cases?

I have been a member and volunteer for my local club for a few years now, and I still see something that kind of bothers me. Our HPDE has 2 sessions where it is 100% mandatory for the owner/student to let the instructor drive their vehicle on track. I took it myself a few years ago, and I was a bit protective. I didn't have too big of a problem until the Chief Instructor told me for the 2nd session that my guy would "show me what my car can do". I had already taken the AWESOME school at VR in Hastings the year before, and I wasn't new to pushing a Viper, so I was well aware. But I feel it is a bigger issue in a small grassroots club where the instructors have little to no experience in "fast" cars except for the other student cars they have driven for a few laps.

Just curious if anyone has run into this before, and how many schools actually work this way? In Hastings they had excellent instructors, but there was never even a question about who was behind the wheel.

I am looking at making waves with my club and proposing a change, as this chases quite a few people away from attending our events.

Dason

[Bill Pemberton]

As an Instructor for NASA as well as a Porsche DE Instructor I often will drive the student's car, but that is only if they ask me too, or on a very safe track. I often caution drivers not to let Instructors drive their Vipers, as so few have driven one, and often they tend to think it needs to be driven like most cars ------ wind them up to get them going. I know I sound like I am talking out of both sides of my mouth, but you never have to let an Instructor drive your machine. Frankly to say it is 100% Mandatory an Instructor drives a student's car is foolish, unsafe , and a very poor ruling. Sounds like a bunch of SpongeBob TrackRats who just want to beat up on someone else's toy. Ask them if they would make if mandatory to drive a Ferrari , and when they say maybe not, tell them your car is appreciating faster than one and you are not interested in their judgement.

You are 100% right in your thought process, it is your car, and frankly we all know if they would wreck it they would then express no obligation to pay for repairs or loss of value. Stick to your guns or go with a more reputable group.

[Steve M]

Yeah, I would have bounced out of that one fast.

The only exception is if I knew that person had extensive experience in the same generation Viper as I was driving. Aside from that, they can piss off. And I'd be really unhappy if that wasn't explained up front.

Pushing a car to its limits can be fun, but totaling a car in the process sure seems like it would put a damper on things. Save that shit for a something you can replace the next day if something goes wrong. And that ain't a Viper.

Yeah, it's just a car, but it's my car. For better or for worse, all of the special cars I've owned have an irreplaceable amount of sweat equity in them.

[SNKEBIT]

Not only no, but "#@(&" NO!!! LOL

[Corse]

This is good discussion. I'm likely going to go hit autocross and do some HPDE in the spring with my viper once I can. That was one of the things I was thinking of as well which is, "How many have actually driven these things and are used to the handling behaviors?"

It's one thing when it's something like my 997, since it's a C4S and therefore pretty hard to be stupid in that car. But a gen 1? Ehhhhhh, gives me the jitters thinking about someone else driving my car.

Also, Spongebob Trackrat is my new favorite term, thanks for that one Bill.

[SRT_BluByU]

Shit no.. id request my admission back and bounce.

[ViperTony]

No. Unless they let you drive their car...which would also be a no.

[Rare Snake]

I figured this would be worthy of some interesting comments, and as usual you guys are on point!!

When I stood up to it in my school, I was surprised to find that nobody had ever challenged it before. I started off very cold and rigid, but I warmed up and we were laughing and okay by the end. The only reason he was my instructor was because he had a Ferrari, so he somewhat understood my attitude. He had never driven a Viper before, even though I was told he had. He was straight up honest with me from the start... and extremely careful. He didn't go over 4K rpm. But when I finally got the okay to fly, it was great to hear him swear in shock at the acceleration, from the passenger seat of course.

[Back In Black]

I've never been to any track day, school, etc. where it was mandatory for the instructor to drive your car. At BIR, they would drive your car if you asked them. Not sure they even do that anymore after an instructor crashed a student's car.

[RacerJRP]

In most, but certainly not all, cases where I have been instructing one-on-one...or even with a small group of two or three I have been asked to put in a few laps behind the wheel of the student's vehicle. For most newer folks it's an eye opening experience to see what is possible, but to put this in context I will not push somebody else's car beyond 75-80%. Totally and completely in control but quick enough to get the point across and somewhat feel the car out. I also would never put a complete session on somebody else's car unless they asked me to. In most cases me getting behind the wheel is maybe 3-4 laps @ 75-80%, with a specific goal of what I want them to take away. Never just joyriding laps.

If the role was reversed....of course I would have reservations! Human nature.

[LuvSpeed]

I let Bill Pemberton drive my Viper at Hastings a couple years ago while I was passenger. Then he was a passenger when I drove. Helped me a bunch! Random HPDE instructor drive my Viper, depends if I thought I could learn something from them. Right now I would love for a professional or somebody better than I was to drive my Viper so I can use my data system against my best lap to see where I could improve.

[Rare Snake]

I let Bill Pemberton drive my Viper at Hastings a couple years ago while I was passenger. Then he was a passenger when I drove. Helped me a bunch! Random HPDE instructor drive my Viper, depends if I thought I could learn something from them. Right now I would love for a professional or somebody better than I was to drive my Viper so I can use my data system against my best lap to see where I could improve.

Same deal for me.

When I let Keith (Back In Black) drive mine at Hastings, I leaned a ton!! And it was just a soft drive to the corner store for him probably lol. I still wonder if my fastest times weren't his laps, even though he wasn't even trying. hahaha

[ChargerMan426]

My buddy was an instructor and once he told me that they HAVE to drive every car who's first time it is at the track I've never gone to the track. Not going to let someone take my car around a track, they didn't work for years to buy it so why should they be able to have the privilege to drive it? He said it was for safety and to ensure the car was track safe.... then proceeds to tell me about how fast SRT jeeps and things are on the track.

[LATAMUD]

I'm a novice and I own an X. I signed up for a CHIN track day at Sebring a couple months ago, it was sold out for novices because they didn't have anymore instructors. I inquired about bringing my own instructor and they told me if I could find someone they would allow me to register. Lee Saunders volunteered for me and I couldn't have had a better instructor. Chin recommends the first session or first part of the first session to have the instructor drive the car. I'm glad I had Lee drive the course with me, I was able to see his line, and feel first hand what an experienced driver could do with my car. My first time on the track with the X, first time with track pads and slicks. I had more confidence when it was my turn to drive.

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

Important: a green novice track newbee is NOT CAPABLE of absorbing what is happening if a senior-instructor "Shows Them What The Car Can Do" in their initial laps. Car-At-Limits is Contra-Indicated for a good learning environment. It also will intimidate some students who think THEY have to perform that way next sessions. When those advanced skills wont even be learned by end-of-day or weekend. Or, it can be deflating to some students hopes for the day.

The best schools enforce a speed limit or lap-time limit on Novices, so they can learn the line, learn the passing zones, point-byes, learn the flags, learn the brake/gas applications, etc, etc....and eventually maybe Heel-Toe. A Lot To learn !

If your would-be instructor wants to show you how good HE/SHE is, they are just showing how clueless they are about helping YOU learn. Its just a Dodge, after all.

I requested Randy Pobst, Tommy Archer, Terry Earwood, Ron Bauer, [and a couple other greats I cannot recall this moment] drive my Vipers, And I learned things. Some humbling things.

At least PCA instructors like BillP and I have peer-reviews and credentials. Anyone else? NOT EVEN IF THEY HANDED ME PROOF OF INSURANCE ...(which you already signed away on the mandatory waiver.)

NO SPONGE-RATS EVEN IF THEY MAKE 1 CAR PAYMENT!


Lee Saunders? Hell yes !

[Bill Pemberton]

Have been an active Instructor for NASA longer than PCA ( have not done much with them for awhile ) , but Jon is correct and normally if a student asks an Instructor to drive a couple of laps to really exaggerate the lines is important before you consider picking up speed. I usually go no more than around 7 tenths a bit later as that seems like ballistic to newcomers. I try to talk loud enough and telegraph every turn , braking point , etc. to further emphasize the track.

All said, I still reiterate, a group should never make it mandatory that an Instructor drive a student's car. Respect is always a two way street.

[StrokerAce]

I want to do a track day very much this year. Hopefully become a regular. I would have no issues with certain people driving my car. Certain people are some of who were mentioned above. Anyone else? Sure, but with one caveat. If they wreck it or hurt it they pay me the FMV on the spot or give me their car which must be worth equally as much. If not, well, you have a better chance of seeing God grab a hot dog at the snack bar between sessions.

I know it's just a Dodge to some but it's been my dream car for years and I'm not going to let someone run the piss out of it 'just because'.

[Rare Snake]

Thank you everyone, for chiming in. I have yet to get my say, at the moment the club has bigger fish to fry. But this will be brought into the light at my soonest opportunity. I believe that with your experiences and comments added to my own, they need to at least hear me out.

Dason.