We as a community need to do this better (Gen V)

[FLATOUT]

I personally feel like there is a real chance we could lose the Viper platform for good, and we as an ownership base could assist in saving it as opposed to adding to it's demise. I think many of us have lost some perspective due to the changes and advancements in the competitive landscape in this sports/muscle/exotic market place. We have been spoiled with amazing performance successes from Viper since it's very beginning, and we are still at the top of what factory performance cars are capable of for just about anything south of 7 figures. The Gen V offers some exceptional improvements that the Viper has always lagged in, and although many of us don't care how many speakers, or what kind of leather the interior has, it's still an improvement on an already world class machine.

I love my gen IV ACR, and it's the perfect Viper for me and what I want a Viper to do (right now). I could sell it and another car I own and go pick up a Gen V tomorrow but I enjoy more track oriented models and will pick one up if it comes out. I can tell you though that I don't love my ACR so much that I will continue to degrade or talk down the Gen V to the point that the Viper might cease to exist.

Our ownership base is small, and the cars are rare, we have real and significant power within the market place to help our manufacturer, dealers, and buyers understand the value of the new Vipers, even if that value is to help sales enough to keep the Viper in production until which time a roadster or ACR version is released. Posting 85-89K leftover 2013's in Iowa or Missouri doesn't help our cause. I believe some of us try to influence the market (selfishly) just to make the new car more affordable so we can pick one up and enjoy the new Snake. Maybe you're a Gen V guy if they can just get down to 80K so if we keep talking about the lack of sales or performance improvements maybe you'll get to be an owner sooner than expected.

The exact oposite happens on the Ford GT forums. The ownership base is preserving and advancing the cars value along with the help of brokers that understand the demand which is many times fueled by the owners pricing speculation. They made TWICE as many Ford GT's from 2005-2006 as they made Vipers 4000 to 2000 (roughly). Still way less GT's total but wanted to add some perspective to the rarity of Viper.

Corvette owners are finally starting to realize that the cost of having a ZR1 or Z06 compete at the same level or past the Viper is not a cheap proposition. The guys that could afford the C5 Z06 (Wich the Viper killed in every category) might not be anywhere near what it will cost to get into the upcoming Z06. Performance comes at a significant price at these levels. And I believe we get more for our buck than just about any other car on the planet. The C6 Z06 was a great buy as well. I currently have 615 NA SAE RWHP from a basic car with BOLTONS and no tuning available. That's an incredible power level at this pricepoint with everything else the Viper platform has to offer.

I Apoligize for the long rant but hopefully we can do a better job of focusing on things that we would like to see improved, within the platform, while keeping in perspective just how much we currently have in the new cars. I have meet VERY few, if any, Gen V owners that don't love their new cars. I don't want this to be the end for the Viper, I want to see, enjoy, and witness how these cars evlolve over the next 50 years.

Can I get an AMEN!


Andy Wheeler

[swexlin]

This is an excellent post. I would be in a Gen 5 in a heartbeat, but I just can't afford it. I "could" do it, but my Gen 3 (not worth much) and my 07 SRT8 Bee (which I like too much to let go) and significant cash (which I just don't have right now, having just bought a house) would ALL have to go. I would support our Viper cause, but it is just out of my reach.

I agree that we as a community need to stop the in-fighting, and come together.

[ViperSmith]

Andy,

Agree and on point.

Perhaps the best thing we could do as a community is lobby and push SRT to open up the PCM. I think it would make a lot of people happy and get cars really moving - and is a relatively simply solution (if you can get rid of the lawyers).

[nastygts]

Amen!

Opening tuning ability would definitely not hurt the market.....as I believe it would strengthen the gen V sales for both manufacturer and aftermarket vendors

[FLATOUT]

Bingo!

Also if you have friends that are interested it doesn't hurt to remind that that these are still one of the best buys out there. I couldn't afford one when they first came out but a neighbor of mine who isn't a major car nut was getting ready to go look at Gallardos. I sent him to Bernie and made sure he didn't buy a Lambo with out atleast looking at the new Viper first.

Bernie took care of him and he bought a fully optioned Stryker red GTS. He loves it, still to this day. I'm glad to have another Viper guy in the neighborhood as well.


Andy,

Agree and on point.

Perhaps the best thing we could do as a community is lobby and push SRT to open up the PCM. I think it would make a lot of people happy and get cars really moving - and is a relatively simply solution (if you can get rid of the lawyers).

[BlknBlu]

This is a good post and we as owners need to partner with SRT on the beloved Viper. We have concerns about the car and wish to discuss on an open forum. This does not mean bashing the car for lacking this or having that on it nad price. Constructive criticism is the best form of communication. We have too many non owners who have not driven the car or a Viper at all, but have a strong opinion on what is wrong with based on magazines and the internet. Those comments are not helping new owners are selling cars to keep the Forum alive and the car from a demise.

We all love Viper and want to to remain and live forever.

Bruce

[VENOM V]

Amen brother, you speak the truth. Part of the reason that I joined the VOA is that I was hoping that it would be a community of Viper owners that respect and enjoy ownership of all Vipers, regardless of generation. For the most part it has been just that. Let's hope it returns, last thing we need is another Alley.

I am a huge fan of all gens, and I don't feel compelled to pick apart any of them for their flaws. For years I have admired them, drooled over them on the rare occasion I would see one in person. At last I am in the financial position to finally own one, and after 6,000 spectacular miles and 4 tracks, I could not be happier. It's hard to understand why a select few previous gen owners can't accept the Gen V despite what they view as it's flaws. And ALL cars have flaws, there is no perfect car. The reality is that this car emerged from the ashes of bankruptcy and was developed on a ridiculously low budget. The engineering team should be commended for what they've accomplished, I don't think any other team in the world with that budget could have done what they've done. The thing is, for me, they hit a bulls eye. Like you, what I really want to see is a Gen V ACR. That would be my dream car and it will be hard to resist postponing retirement to pick one up!

As an aside, whenever I see your car Andy, I think that is one of the baddest Vipers in the land. My good friend Rich has a SSG/Black Gen IV ACR, probably my all time favorite Viper. Okay, tied with mine, LOL

[ViperSmith]

Bingo!

Also if you have friends that are interested it doesn't hurt to remind that that these are still one of the best buys out there. I couldn't afford one when they first came out but a neighbor of mine who isn't a major car nut was getting ready to go look at Gallardos. I sent him to Bernie and made sure he didn't buy a Lambo with out atleast looking at the new Viper first.

Bernie took care of him and he bought a fully optioned Stryker red GTS. He loves it, still to this day. I'm glad to have another Viper guy in the neighborhood as well.

And more V owners need to do their part as well. I've let a slew of people drive mine to see what it is like and at least one is going to buy (plenty of dreamers as well as people who can pull the trigger)

But I think everyone can get behind a short term fix for the V, get that computer unlocked. In reality it would do the most to change what inventory they have out there and the current design.

Question is, how does it happen!

[ACRucrazy]

I don't know what to say about this.

I LOVE the Gen V, I love every generation of the Viper. The Viper has been my ultimate dream car since I was a kid and I am so blessed to finally fulfill that dream. Do I wish the Gen V had more power? Sure why not. Do I wish it was cheaper? Sure why not. Do I wish I made more money so the car didn't have to be cheaper? LOL Sure do! Do I think it's the best Viper to date? As a whole, yes. Is the Gen V the Viper I long for? no, that is the ACR. It always has been and will most likely always will be.

I recall way back when the V was just shown and there were speculation around price and production numbers some were touting 3k per year. I knew there was no way that would happen as there has never been that history. Nor did I want it to happen. I love that the Viper is exclusive and would rather keep it that way.

Sure some of the press has been less than stellar, sure some of the comments around the car have been negative, which I will admit, I've all to easily get sucked into it. Not because I want to talk bad about the car or the hard work everyone at SRT has done, but rather because I am so damn passionate around this car like so many other people. I hate to see the negative press, I hate to see misinformed people talk so critical of the car. Why? Why does one care so much about a car? Passion I guess is all I can say.

Ok... maybe a little mid-winter madness too. You lucky assholes that are still driving yours!! LOL Mines been tucked in a garage for the last 5 months and most likely 1 more to go.. So yea.. I'm going stir crazy..

Would I have gone a different route with some things? Yep, for sure. But I am not in any kind of position to make any of those decisions. Like the saying goes, "It's above my pay grade."

So when I see something that bothers me, I guess all I can do voice those opinions. I know in the past I have mentioned I personally need to work on how I share those opinions and not what I am sharing. I think it's just the building frustration that many may share and every now and then I just vent. Anonymity behind a keyboard right? Makes it so much easier.. it's almost like being drunk and you let it all out!

Thank you to Ralph and team for keeping the dream alive. Thank you bringing back the Viper and keeping its soul! There is nothing else like it on the road, period. At any price. If I was in the position to add one to the garage I would do so in a heartbeat.

[ViperGeorge]

Good post. All of the Vipers I've owned or own have been real head turners. I am regularly photographed driving my Gen 5. Everyone from old ladies to young kids whip out their cell phones and snap the car's picture. I even had a Corvette driver give me a thumbs up on the way to work this morning. With the possible exception of a Lambo or maybe a particularly exotic Ferrari no other car garners so much attention.

The Gen 5 is a great car. Much more refined than previous Gens. My Gen 5 is now my daily driver, actually much easier to live with than the 2013 GT500 I sold to buy it. Given all of this I honestly don't know why it hasn't sold better unless it is price. It isn't cheap especially all of those highly optioned cars the dealers ordered. I honestly don't believe it is the looks (although I don't like the black grille) or performance - its performance will kill almost anything else for the price. Biggest problem isn't with the car it is with SRT's Marketing group. Clearly their sales strategy was well off the mark. Hopefully they can recover.

[The_Greg]

Amen.

Its amazing that the Viper can be dinged on price only because it is associated and priced near a competitor. A great analogy, to me: Say your stereotypical girl next door, Miss America, Miss Italy, Miss UK, and Miss Sweden are standing in front of you, all 10/10 in their own way. If you're telling me that the girl next door is better than Miss America because she's a cheaper date, then you've missed the point. The point is that they are all 10/10 in their own way and you'll be happy for any time you get to be with them!

Having said that, If I was in a position to buy any car at or even above that price point, I would buy a Gen V hands down. Not kidding, if I were to stumble upon a large sum of money today I wouldn't go to any other car, any other brand, before I would have a Gen V on its way to me (and then probably an ACR, and then an FGT, then SRT8 Jeep.. etc etc, it would be the greatest shopping day of my life). I love that it is, at minimum, definitely a Viper. 640 hp is definitely enough for me; I really enjoy street driving and even my Gen III has enough speed potential for my comfort level. I think they have a slam dunk with the infotainment, something I'm jealous my current Viper doesn't have. The interior is perfect, I love the way it looks and feels (seats maybe not as padded as my comfy Gen III but most say they break in and are comfortable). The paint options, wheels, and interior options are great, but I think I'd have a white SRT with black or gunmetal stripes (not full length) and hyper black track pack wheels. Oh, but then Stryker green is a big favorite of mine too. I haven't driven one but have to imagine its way better than my current one. To me, there is nothing not to like.

Complaints about a 640 hp V10 RWD 2dr coupe that has the biggest mechanical contact patch of a production car with a modern leather interior and nearly all the amenities you want? Some first world problem.

[100]

Amen brother, there's a lot VOA can do.
1) Saving VIN#4 in Washington State. (SRT is too busy working on 2015.) VOA is still sleeping on this.:confused:
2) VOA should learn how to submit press releases when something happens in their chapter. (i.e. nearby track record, 20th anniversary, personal profile in the newspaper)

[J TNT]

Amen Brother !!! And Great Post ! My sentiment too! If the Legacy is not promoted within , it will be a Loss for All Enthusiasts ! I say the grass is Greener were you water it ! Wish more people appreciate what we have IMHO. ;)

[Drummerviper]

Not to be a smart Alec but I don't get your point. What is it you want folks to do?

[Bitten]

Amen!

But, the big Elephant in the room is Viper marketing. If they don't market to their past customer base then no sales. Chrysler and Fiat are killing the dealers. They should have allowed any dealer to have them or at least any dealers that sell SRT to sell Viper without charging them a dealership fee.

I am very happy that I bought a Gen V and I would hate to see the demise of the car. I was lucky that I had some equity in my other cars and very lucky I got what I did for my older cars. I wouldn't have made the purchase otherwise. It's a lot money. Worth it for me, but they are a lot of current owners who refuse or can't take the depreciation hit on the Vipers they currently own.

I love the new Viper!

[VENOM V]

Actually, hateful angry debate does have something to do with sales. As several have stated, some candidate buyers are looking for a community to be a part of, to learn about their cars, share stories. Enough trash talk on a Viper forum, and some buyers will walk. We've heard from several that didn't or nearly didn't buy, thanks to the negative impressions they got from the forums. In all honesty, I don't see the Viper forums as a whole as a big draw to potential buyers. You should see the Camaro forums, quite a different culture. Positive. Sharing stories, how-to's, planning get togethers. Very rare that you see the fangs out on that site. And the Camaro is far from perfect. I love mine, but I know it's a couple hundred pounds porkier than the Mustangs, and stock Vs. stock will lose a drag race. But people there choose to focus on the positive, not dwell on the negative. It's quite a remarkable contrast to the typical Viper site. At least the VOA forums are for the most part positive, but some people love to stir the pot and create conflict. Any ideas who?

[ViperSmith]

Why does a good thread trying to do positive things have to get sidelined with another pedantic argument.

Jeez.

Back on point, what could be done to get SRT to open up the PCM? What can current owners do to help get the word out (if they so want to)? Perhaps SRT should create a "referral" program for owners who get other owners to buy... Would incentivize people to give others rides, etc.

[Nine Ball]

Great post, Andy. The Viper community as a whole needs to do a better job of welcoming other Viper owners and enthusiasts. Bashing of any generation Viper shouldn't be tolerated within this community of mixed Viper owners. All it does is separate the group, hurt the values of cars, and promote a negative atmosphere here. I also don't consider those who have owned a Viper for more years to be any more important than people that have owned a car for 1 day. Everyone has equal input here, as they should. The newcomers simply seek information from those who have more experience with the car, they shouldn't be subjected to criticism for being a new owner.

As for SRT marketing, I've tried my best on my own. I even converted a co-worker into a Viper buyer, who was waiting on the C7Z06. He didn't think he could afford a new Viper, until I showed him a few sale posts.

Tony

[VENOM V]

Other forums are different in that people just understand they are discussing a "car" on other forums with lower cost machines, and on the high end ( Lamborghini or Ferrari ) the owners can have what ever car they desire and may possibly not be so emotionally attached .

Oh I think you'd be surprised how many Camaro owners dreamed for many years, saved their pennies, and finally now own what they consider their dream car. The passion is just as strong in muscle car circles.

[Bill Pemberton]

Fantastic post. Contrary to my sometimes windy posts, I can unequivocably state that the negativism on Forums has hurt sales. I can not express how many owners no longer even follow the Forums, or want the car, as being in this community was for many part of the experience/ownership. Andy , you just were awarded the last Medal of Honor -- very well said my Viper brother!!!

[daytonprowler]

So back to the thread topic. I would love to have one of the GenVs. Just can't afford it right now. I will do my best to help the brand. The Viper is an emotional purchase. I'm not sure if unlocking the PCM would do the trick as far as added sales. How much horsepower does one really need? A lot of cars more expensive than the GenV price don't have 640hp.

Shelby built a Mustang with 1000hp. Doesn't make me feel bad about my Shelby Mustang. I think they got two orders for the Shelby 1000. It's what hp you can get to the ground.

I don't understand the big deal about the Corvette. You see five or more a day. Almost as common as a mini van.

I contacted the powers that be at SRT to see about getting a GenV Ride and Drive at our Ultimate Viper Party for that Saturday and Sunday. "Butts in seats" that is what we need to do.

[GBS]

I really like the Gen V. Every week I weigh the pluses and minuses of purchasing 1 at this time. So far the minuses out weigh the pluses but they have nothing to do with the actual car other than I wish they had some different color choices for 2014.

[FLATOUT]

Not to be a smart Alec but I don't get your point. What is it you want folks to do?

These forums reach a very large audience for potential buyers. I'm sure we could do a better job of keeping the performance of these platforms in perspective. It seems to me like everything is either total junk or a total success, 1 or a 10. If an ACR is your 10 maybe a gen V is still a 9 or 8.5 so why constantly talk it down like it's a 3 or 2?

I know Viper isn't your favorite platform anymore, you're a GT guy with some other great stuff in the garage. The GT met a different fate, and there wasn't anything anyone from a buyers base could do about it. I feel like our attitudes publicly "could" help to sway potential owners. I might be wrong. I might not affect your buying decision, but then it again it might affect the next guys.

It's just a thought not right or wrong just something I thought was worth discussing.

[FLATOUT]

There are a lot of us that build and modify some really high HP stuff, and we know how to put it down. We discount the fact that the Viper has always had a major street racing following. Gen 2's with forged internals were always a favorite. I know of a bunch of guys here in Houston that currently own Z06's because they wanted to mod them for roll racing and make a 1000+ HP and knew that the Viper platform could never do that without going to very expensive stand alone ECU's.

I do hear this stated a bit "how much can you really use". Trust me I'll find a way to use every ounce while shooting 3 foot flames out the side ;)



So back to the thread topic. I would love to have one of the GenVs. Just can't afford it right now. I will do my best to help the brand. The Viper is an emotional purchase. I'm not sure if unlocking the PCM would do the trick as far as added sales. How much horsepower does one really need? A lot of cars more expensive than the GenV price don't have 640hp.

Shelby built a Mustang with 1000hp. Doesn't make me feel bad about my Shelby Mustang. I think they got two orders for the Shelby 1000. It's what hp you can get to the ground.

I don't understand the big deal about the Corvette. You see five or more a day. Almost as common as a mini van.

I contacted the powers that be at SRT to see about getting a GenV Ride and Drive at our Ultimate Viper Party for that Saturday and Sunday. "Butts in seats" that is what we need to do.

[Canadian venom]

@Flatout Amen + rep !!!

A ''suggestions to SRT'' sub-forum might be a good idea....

[99RT10]

Amen!

But, the big Elephant in the room is Viper marketing. If they don't market to their past customer base then no sales. Chrysler and Fiat are killing the dealers. They should have allowed any dealer to have them or at least any dealers that sell SRT to sell Viper without charging them a dealership fee.
!


And here is the thing, is the marketing/PR department really this incompetent or is this a planned action? After the first or second screw up thru the magazines, I could chalk it up to human stupidity, but nothing has changed, they are still making huge mistakes as are the independent dealerships. I think the new car is a fantastic jump from the Gen 4, although I would like to have seem 700 HP, it is still a great car done with almost no money.

Don't get me started on the locked PCM, that is another huge issue.

You never hear a word for Ralph either on this issue, why? I think this was a way to ultimately kill the Viper and not place the blame on the car itself. I think this is being done on purpose.

[FLATOUT]

Thanks Bill, every major US sports car or import that has been around for more than 20-30 years has had low point and high points, but they survived. This is the last hand built car in Detroit I would hate to see it go away.



Fantastic post. Contrary to my sometimes windy posts, I can unequivocably state that the negativism on Forums has hurt sales. I can not express how many owners no longer even follow the Forums, or want the car, as being in this community was for many part of the experience/ownership. Andy , you just were awarded the last Medal of Honor -- very well said my Viper brother!!!

[ACRucrazy]

Fantastic post. Contrary to my sometimes windy posts, I can unequivocably state that the negativism on Forums has hurt sales. I can not express how many owners no longer even follow the Forums, or want the car, as being in this community was for many part of the experience/ownership. Andy , you just were awarded the last Medal of Honor -- very well said my Viper brother!!!

I can unequivocally state that the Motor Trend articles hurt sales much more than any forum posts. And if any forum hurt the Vipers sales it would have to be the shady stuff that went down last year on the VCA. I barely even bother looking over there anymore.

[plumcrazy]

Putting 1000hp to the ground is fun when you start at 60mph and honk.....

[FLATOUT]

I agree SRT had a lot to do with it, and I didn't create this thread to say that we were more implicit in the downward sales numbers than any other cog in the system. I'm sure our part in this entire thing is small, but it's still there and if it's just enough to keep the car going (a few extra cars sold here or there), than I'll take it. Just in this thread two posters have stated that coworkers or friends purchased New Gen V's based soley on their recommendations. I know it's just two cars but we can't be the only two guys out there that might have swayed someone to consider Viper that might not have thought about one previously.


I can unequivocally state that the Motor Trend articles hurt sales much more than any forum posts. And if any forum hurt the Vipers sales it would have to be the shady stuff that went down last year on the VCA. I barely even bother looking over there anymore.

- - - Updated - - -


Putting 1000hp to the ground is fun when you start at 60mph and honk.....


Yes it is :D Which is acceptable in some cricles and those guys buy Viper too :D

[ViperGeorge]

To me there is a significant price issue. When the car crosses the $100K mark it pushes it into a new market. I think it is a Psychological barrier for people. Folks that can afford a $140K GTS can probably afford a Ferrari or Lambo or other hot car. When dealers add an additional mark up it gets worse fast. A price of $100K or below opens the market up to a bunch of other people who probably would never be able to afford any other super car. I think the Gen 5 is a great car but it is expensive at $140K for a GTS. And heavily optioned GTS were the order of choice for dealers. Even the TA is $120K and I'm not sure it would kick the butt of my somewhat modified 2009 ACR. SRT should have filled individual orders first and gotten the cars into the hands of those that wanted them first. The dealers could have waited for their showroom queens.

[Newport Viper]

A ''suggestions to SRT''

Allow ANY CURRENT VIPER OWNER (Proof required) to order the Convertible on a stand alone website. The customer should be able to get online at home (delivery/pricing through a dealer of customers choice).

Build the car and deliver it within 3 weeks. (The buzz will be amazing)

Do not take any dealer orders until a Owner Loyalty time period expires. (6 months? with current dealer supply)

Then open Convertible ordering to the Public (non-viper owners ...another 3 months?)

Market it, market it, market it, with urgency.

If 2/3rds of all Vipers are Verts this will be the test for the car to stay or go.

Best part; 91 people go back to work :United_States: and, you only build what's ordered while waiting for dealer coupe oversupply to sort itself out.

[daytonprowler]

Allow ANY CURRENT VIPER OWNER (Proof required) to order the Convertible on a stand alone website. The customer should be able to get online at home (delivery/pricing through a dealer of customers choice).

Build the car and deliver it within 3 weeks. (The buzz will be amazing)

Do not take any dealer orders until a Owner Loyalty time period expires. (6 months? with current dealer supply)

Then open Convertible ordering to the Public (non-viper owners ...another 3 months?)

Market it, market it, market it, with urgency.

If 2/3rds of all Vipers are Verts this will be the test for the car to stay or go.

Best part; 91 people go back to work :United_States: and, you only build what's ordered while waiting for dealer coupe oversupply to sort itself out.

Yes, back to the old ways. If you are a current Viper owner you get first chance to order.

3 weeks to build might be a little too aggressive.

[Coloviper]

Great initial post and "I agree, support SRT!"

It is important we show support whether that is buying new or just morale support for SRT from us boys with holes in our pockets! We have all beaten up what SRT has done wrong to DEATH. Time to put that all in a coffin and bury it. I challenge you all to just put the past in the past and let's focus on the now and the future. We have three (3) hurdles ahead of us as a manufacturer and a Owners Support Group:

1. Selling the remaining stock on floor and on lot.
2. Trying to communicate and influence SRT on what the hell we really want in the cars going forth. It is a pretty diverse group!
3. Trying to fix or dispel what confidence issues people have in the manufacturer, car, dealer support, warranty or whatever.

We all have a roll to play in this, whether that is restrain on a controversial opinion post (myself included) or arguing and getting personal posting against other members (again, I need to work on this myself). I will commit to this positive move going forth and you have my word on that. I encourage you to do that same.

Until we can walk in SRT's shoes and truly understand what they are dealing with in this new FCA Organization, we need to be a little less critical. Quality is up, power is up, interior is 1st class and we have some electronics in it now. Viper has always been about evolution.

[Coloviper]

I have one more question on this subject?

I am not a big car race watcher though I have puttered around the track a bit for fun, but at LeMans, is there a class for a 100% stock vehicle? If so, I believe there is value in sending a 100% stock showroom Viper to race there as well as our GTSR cars and GT3 cars. Part of the point is not whether it places well or even wins but if it does relatively okay and more importantly actually finishes the race in one piece, does that not speak a mountain of volume for the car itself as the one you can drive 100% stock out of the showroom?

What better way to show the world what that Viper really is and means, then to take the one off the showroom floor and race that one in that class at LeMans or any other World-wide event? That has meaning! Just a thought!

As much as I want to se podium finishes at LeMans for the race teams, truthfully I would actually watch it if the car I could exactly have out the showroom floor

[MtnBiker]

Coloviper, thank you for being forthright. I believe this is exactly the kind of response Andy/OP was hoping for.

[Newport Viper]

I have one more question on this subject?

is there a class for a 100% stock vehicle?

No...Production based but, not stock. That would be cool however...

[venom505]

Actually no, there is no one sitting next to me as I type. I do not have the desire to attend club meetings or outings.

I assume that most members that pay possibly attend the great events that are thrown, but it's not my cup of tea.

I had been a member of the VCA since 06 and now a member of the VOA . I have not attended hardly any events, but I enjoy the forums and the people. I think any Viper owner that use them should be members. If we can afford a Viper we can afford a membership.

[daytonprowler]

Great initial post and "I agree, support SRT!"

It is important we show support whether that is buying new or just morale support for SRT from us boys with holes in our pockets! We have all beaten up what SRT has done wrong to DEATH. Time to put that all in a coffin and bury it. I challenge you all to just put the past in the past and let's focus on the now and the future. We have three (3) hurdles ahead of us as a manufacturer and a Owners Support Group:

1. Selling the remaining stock on floor and on lot.
2. Trying to communicate and influence SRT on what the hell we really want in the cars going forth. It is a pretty diverse group!
3. Trying to fix or dispel what confidence issues people have in the manufacturer, car, dealer support, warranty or whatever.

We all have a roll to play in this, whether that is restrain on a controversial opinion post (myself included) or arguing and getting personal posting against other members (again, I need to work on this myself). I will commit to this positive move going forth and you have my word on that. I encourage you to do that same.

Until we can walk in SRT's shoes and truly understand what they are dealing with in this new FCA Organization, we need to be a little less critical. Quality is up, power is up, interior is 1st class and we have some electronics in it now. Viper has always been about evolution.

Now we're talking! :)


I had been a member of the VCA since 06 and now a member of the VOA . I have not attended hardly any events, but I enjoy the forums and the people. I think any Viper owner that use them should be members. If we can afford a Viper we can afford a membership.

+1,000,000

[ViperGTS]

I have one more question on this subject?

I am not a big car race watcher though I have puttered around the track a bit for fun, but at LeMans, is there a class for a 100% stock vehicle? If so, I believe there is value in sending a 100% stock showroom Viper to race there as well as our GTSR cars and GT3 cars. Part of the point is not whether it places well or even wins but if it does relatively okay and more importantly actually finishes the race in one piece, does that not speak a mountain of volume for the car itself as the one you can drive 100% stock out of the showroom?

What better way to show the world what that Viper really is and means, then to take the one off the showroom floor and race that one in that class at LeMans or any other World-wide event? That has meaning! Just a thought!

As much as I want to se podium finishes at LeMans for the race teams, truthfully I would actually watch it if the car I could exactly have out the showroom floor
---
We could drive a stock Viper around Le Mans for 24h - but not at race speed. The brakes would be killed, the tires would be shot, etc. It is +3000 miles in 24h.:t0140:

[VENOM V]

Great initial post and "I agree, support SRT!"

It is important we show support whether that is buying new or just morale support for SRT from us boys with holes in our pockets! We have all beaten up what SRT has done wrong to DEATH. Time to put that all in a coffin and bury it. I challenge you all to just put the past in the past and let's focus on the now and the future. We have three (3) hurdles ahead of us as a manufacturer and a Owners Support Group:

1. Selling the remaining stock on floor and on lot.
2. Trying to communicate and influence SRT on what the hell we really want in the cars going forth. It is a pretty diverse group!
3. Trying to fix or dispel what confidence issues people have in the manufacturer, car, dealer support, warranty or whatever.

We all have a roll to play in this, whether that is restrain on a controversial opinion post (myself included) or arguing and getting personal posting against other members (again, I need to work on this myself). I will commit to this positive move going forth and you have my word on that. I encourage you to do that same.

Until we can walk in SRT's shoes and truly understand what they are dealing with in this new FCA Organization, we need to be a little less critical. Quality is up, power is up, interior is 1st class and we have some electronics in it now. Viper has always been about evolution.

Good post, Coloviper :United_States:

Flatout, thanks for starting this thread. I'm feeling a little better after waking up this morning with forum hangover after a rough night, LOL

[slitherv10]

I have one more question on this subject?

I am not a big car race watcher though I have puttered around the track a bit for fun, but at LeMans, is there a class for a 100% stock vehicle? If so, I believe there is value in sending a 100% stock showroom Viper to race there as well as our GTSR cars and GT3 cars. Part of the point is not whether it places well or even wins but if it does relatively okay and more importantly actually finishes the race in one piece, does that not speak a mountain of volume for the car itself as the one you can drive 100% stock out of the showroom?

What better way to show the world what that Viper really is and means, then to take the one off the showroom floor and race that one in that class at LeMans or any other World-wide event? That has meaning! Just a thought!

As much as I want to se podium finishes at LeMans for the race teams, truthfully I would actually watch it if the car I could exactly have out the showroom floor


Interesting thought. But not sure it makes any sense towards adding sales and keeping this car alive and well.

Sales will come with what the car stands for on the street and what it can do from light to light, on a 60m/hr roll on the highway and an aggressive stance. I don't think too many people bought this car because of the track time other than a handful that care about that. Again I state as I have in an earlier post. Its not about how fast the car goes around a 3 mile track on twist and turns, its about the way it performs and the atmosphere it protrudes on the street against our fellow competitors. Unlocking the PCM and keeping this car as raw as raw can afford and in keeping the amenities that are needed to keep it somewhat civil, and leave the customer to pick and choose any extra comfort options they wish to add to their taste, is what the key is here. Unlocking the PCM will not make a difference on the track, yet, its something of top priority here. Its not about track times and performance for the new Viper. Its about getting the public to drive it on the street. The average Joe who is the big market here is not going to care about lap times or certainly not the 24hrs of le mans. Keep the car marketed towards the street and the king of the hill status and you'll see sales go up. Make the GT3-R car a street version vehicle for around 130K and you'll see them fly off the shelves. Its about style and HP numbers catered to the street. The track is a great place to figure out the car, but, the street is where it should shine.

[Policy Limits]

Good post. Have been in several different brands & never experienced such drama as the drama that exists around the Viper. It's improved over the last year but I do think the civil war can has and will scare away potential candidates for V ownership. If I'm being honest, there's so much negativity surrounding the car, that a very small portion of me considers getting rid of it so as not to own such a hated and disrespected car. But then the 99% portion of me that likes what I like kicks in and I realize for the most part that I care about what I like and could care less about what others think. Still,some folks might not feel that way.

The car was originally created in the shadow of the Cobra in an era where there was no real power out there in the auto industry. Times have changed in that supercar competition has never been stiffer; but what remains are the riots if a supercar to the core, full of soul. And a leopard can't change his spots.

[Policy Limits]

**roots of a supercar

[Simms]

Amen!


i personally feel like there is a real chance we could lose the viper platform for good, and we as an ownership base could assist in saving it as opposed to adding to it's demise. I think many of us have lost some perspective due to the changes and advancements in the competitive landscape in this sports/muscle/exotic market place. We have been spoiled with amazing performance successes from viper since it's very beginning, and we are still at the top of what factory performance cars are capable of for just about anything south of 7 figures. The gen v offers some exceptional improvements that the viper has always lagged in, and although many of us don't care how many speakers, or what kind of leather the interior has, it's still an improvement on an already world class machine.

I love my gen iv acr, and it's the perfect viper for me and what i want a viper to do (right now). I could sell it and another car i own and go pick up a gen v tomorrow but i enjoy more track oriented models and will pick one up if it comes out. I can tell you though that i don't love my acr so much that i will continue to degrade or talk down the gen v to the point that the viper might cease to exist.

Our ownership base is small, and the cars are rare, we have real and significant power within the market place to help our manufacturer, dealers, and buyers understand the value of the new vipers, even if that value is to help sales enough to keep the viper in production until which time a roadster or acr version is released. Posting 85-89k leftover 2013's in iowa or missouri doesn't help our cause. I believe some of us try to influence the market (selfishly) just to make the new car more affordable so we can pick one up and enjoy the new snake. Maybe you're a gen v guy if they can just get down to 80k so if we keep talking about the lack of sales or performance improvements maybe you'll get to be an owner sooner than expected.

The exact oposite happens on the ford gt forums. The ownership base is preserving and advancing the cars value along with the help of brokers that understand the demand which is many times fueled by the owners pricing speculation. They made twice as many ford gt's from 2005-2006 as they made vipers 4000 to 2000 (roughly). Still way less gt's total but wanted to add some perspective to the rarity of viper.

Corvette owners are finally starting to realize that the cost of having a zr1 or z06 compete at the same level or past the viper is not a cheap proposition. The guys that could afford the c5 z06 (wich the viper killed in every category) might not be anywhere near what it will cost to get into the upcoming z06. Performance comes at a significant price at these levels. And i believe we get more for our buck than just about any other car on the planet. The c6 z06 was a great buy as well. I currently have 615 na sae rwhp from a basic car with boltons and no tuning available. That's an incredible power level at this pricepoint with everything else the viper platform has to offer.

I apoligize for the long rant but hopefully we can do a better job of focusing on things that we would like to see improved, within the platform, while keeping in perspective just how much we currently have in the new cars. I have meet very few, if any, gen v owners that don't love their new cars. I don't want this to be the end for the viper, i want to see, enjoy, and witness how these cars evlolve over the next 50 years.

Can i get an amen!


Andy wheeler

[Photog1]

Amen!

[randd]

I knew a year ago there would be trouble with sales. The bump in hp from G4 to G5 was insufficient, particularly when the GT500 mustang boasted around 650. Not that 640 isn't enough, but now you're playing second to a mustang in the hp game. It's just a mind thing of course, but the srt viper should have started with something closer to 700. Who needs 700? I certainly don't but it's like a magical number that would have pleased a lot of folk rather than 640 that disappointed. Then pricing was a disaster. At 130+ now srt is competing in a whole different and unfamiliar market. It's like marketing was willing to ditch its previous buyer base to seduce a new one. Then unlike the Gen 2 and 3 that I got serviced from my local Dodge dealer, now I have to travel 100 miles to get warranty work.

Despite all this, the srt viper is by far the best viper I have owned. It's so much more user-friendly and it's an almost daily driver for me, and at the price I paid, good value. All the above is of course, only one person's perception...but that perception is my reality. What caused the 0 production years of 2007, 2011, 2012? Is this just history revisited or something else? I am not concerned about the viper going away. It may for a while like before...but the automotive world needs a car like the viper. But it is a hand built low production supercar and marketing has to be as precise as the build.

[FLATOUT]

The zero production years you asked about were retooling/new production run redevelopment years. 2007- Gen 3-4 and 2011-2012 gen 4 to 5.

[Drummerviper]

These forums reach a very large audience for potential buyers. I'm sure we could do a better job of keeping the performance of these platforms in perspective. It seems to me like everything is either total junk or a total success, 1 or a 10. If an ACR is your 10 maybe a gen V is still a 9 or 8.5 so why constantly talk it down like it's a 3 or 2?

I know Viper isn't your favorite platform anymore, you're a GT guy with some other great stuff in the garage. The GT met a different fate, and there wasn't anything anyone from a buyers base could do about it. I feel like our attitudes publicly "could" help to sway potential owners. I might be wrong. I might not affect your buying decision, but then it again it might affect the next guys.

It's just a thought not right or wrong just something I thought was worth discussing.

I am lucky to have some decent cars, but no car ever acheived the passion for me as the Viper. Even now, when I see a 2014 at my dealer, it evokes an emotion--but its mixed. This will sound funny coming from someone who had an 05, 06, 09 and two 10s but Viper began losing its way in Gen 3. Gen 4s languised on lots forever. I bought a new 09 for $75K and folks were not bashing those Gens by and large.

Nothing we can do will have much effect on Viper--it is what it is. I will decline to again go into the details of why Gen 5 is a fiasco--but I have said before you could not have screwed up the launch any more with a screwing up machine set on high. We cannot change that nor should we feel guilty for not doing more about how the car is received--IMO it would not matter one wit. We could be like my Ferrari friends and no matter the car, contantly hail it because of the name plate but people see through it.

I hope viper does well--but my God, it has a long, long way to go given what is in the market place. I am happy that folks who are buying Gen 5s seem to love them--and if they are worried about depreciation they should buy a McLaren--I have seen REAL depreciation

[ViperSmith]

I am lucky to have some decent cars, but no car ever acheived the passion for me as the Viper. Even now, when I see a 2014 at my dealer, it evokes an emotion--but its mixed. This will sound funny coming from someone who had an 05, 06, 09 and two 10s but Viper began losing its way in Gen 3. Gen 4s languised on lots forever. I bought a new 09 for $75K and folks were not bashing those Gens by and large.

Nothing we can do will have much effect on Viper--it is what it is. I will decline to again go into the details of why Gen 5 is a fiasco--but I have said before you could not have screwed up the launch any more with a screwing up machine set on high. We cannot change that nor should we feel guilty for not doing more about how the car is received--IMO it would not matter one wit. We could be like my Ferrari friends and no matter the car, contantly hail it because of the name plate but people see through it.

I hope viper does well--but my God, it has a long, long way to go given what is in the market place. I am happy that folks who are buying Gen 5s seem to love them--and if they are worried about depreciation they should buy a McLaren--I have seen REAL depreciation

The 12C's are steals now used. $330k new and $180k after two years.

OUCH!

[bluesrt]

the only people that down the gen v are the ones that cant reach one, that goes for anything out there

[Jack B]

That may be a stretch, however, for those that want a coupe, the excuses for not considering the G5 are ridiculous if not embarrassing.

The only thing more embarrassing, is the ground hog day serial repitition of the same excuses.


the only people that down the gen v are the ones that cant reach one, that goes for anything out there

[Joel]

I don't agree with this sentiment that folks criticize the Gen V for spite. For me there are 2 things wrong with the Gen V. It is too pricey and you can't put the top down. But, I'm probably like a lot of current Viper owners, I just plain can't afford a new one. I won't say I'll never own one but I can't see one in my price range for quite a while. I realize it is a special car and that, when the price is taken in context of past year's adjusted to current dollars, the price is not out of line. But I couldn't afford a new Gen II, III, or IV when they came out either. So I am happy to be part of the Viper nation but just not in a Gen V.


the only people that down the gen v are the ones that cant reach one, that goes for anything out there

[Simms]

Why does everyone think $130-150k when talking about the V? Yes, many dealer ordered cars were, but an SRT isn't much different cost wise than a Gen IV ACR was when new.

[HobokenViper]

Fantastic post. Contrary to my sometimes windy posts, I can unequivocably state that the negativism on Forums has hurt sales. I can not express how many owners no longer even follow the Forums, or want the car, as being in this community was for many part of the experience/ownership. Andy , you just were awarded the last Medal of Honor -- very well said my Viper brother!!!

As a somewhat recent Viper buyer, (bought my Gen IV 1.5 years ago) I was looking at the forums for at least 6 months before making my purchase as a casual browser to get some valuable insight and to make absolutely certain that it was the right car for me. I found the VCA to be a mostly positive and supportive place at the time, and everyone talking about the Gen V was largely very excited and supportive of what was to come with lots of positive speculation.

I enjoyed the forum, and part of the Viper experience I was looking forward to was being a member of the Viper community. Within 6 months of my purchase, the VCA went into a tailspin of negativity, financial woes, far too many trolls, etc..... It became painful to read many threads that started out good, but quickly became hijacked and turned into in-fighting or trash talking the amazing Gen V. While it didn't change my love for my car, it gave a very different impression of what many Viper owners can be like, and it didn't feel like the positive and friendly community that I once found it to be.

Had this happened prior to my Viper purchase, would I have still bought my car? Probably yes, since it has always been top on my list of cars that I wanted to own, but it might have delayed the purchase or made me second guess things a bit if I was seeing so many people being so overly negative about it as they have been about the Gen V. I know for fact that all the negativity about the new model as well as the constant bickering between members and enthusiasts has turned at least a few potential Viper owners off to buying the car. We should all be thankful for the evolution of our favorite car and for the improvements that it has undergone even if some of the improvements were not as great as some of us would have liked. Keep in mind that we almost completely lost the Viper as a car and brand, not to mention Chrysler as well, so be happy that we have this amazing car back again. I hope to see the future evolution of the car assuming it continues to exist going forward. And yes, there are other factors that have contributed more to the slow sales numbers which have all been stated here on almost every thread ad-naseoum, so I'm not going to repeat them here again, but the forum does have some degree of impact on potential new buyers once they find their way here.

To me, I just don't understand what problem anyone could possibly have with the Gen V??? When I saw it in person for the first time, I thought it was one of the most beautiful cars I had ever seen in my life. Photos truly do not do this car justice, and the Stryker red paint is truly something extra special way nicer than any paint job I have ever seen before. With all the major improvements and complete redesign on a relative shoestring budget, I'm impressed. If I had a more understanding and tolerant wife, I'd have one in my garage right now, but I don't. One day I will.....

[FLATOUT]

And it looks like this is yet another fine example of how a non-member forum poster can totally hijack and derail an otherwise positive or interesting thread and turn it into completely nonsensical and worthless fighting. Seems to happen to most threads these days by the third page or so......


Exactly, and thanks for your comments about your prepurchase research and how the forums weighed on your decision . Glad you bought a Viper and it looks like you got a nice one :D

[randd]

I was on the fence for a short while between a Gen5 and a 911 purchase. I went to the nearest Porsche dealership and received excellent attention. I then joined a major Porsche forum to seek advice and got no attention at all. That was a factor, not major but a factor all the same that influenced my purchase.

[Glhs110]

Excellent post flatout! I think these forums are a great way to communicate with other owners but I have to agree with Bill, When the negativity and bashing of the car starts it makes me want to turn the computer off and not even bother logging back in. When all the old club controversy was going on I wanted nothing to do with Viper. And it definitely steered me away from purchasing a new GEN V! The constant bashing of Fiat is really getting old, there would be no Viper without Sergio allowing Ralph continue the legacy.
I'm all for constructive criticism, however it tends to go way beyond constructive.
Also, It kills me when these guys talk about how 640 hp is nothing, And it should be 700. I used to be impressed with my 450 hp Gen 2.( Now before all you speed freaks go ripping on me about horsepower you must understand, I love street racing, And I have multiple old Mopar's that I do it with. Including an 1100 hp blown injected Hemi!! So back off I'm not in the mood)
The new Viper is absolutely awesome. It's way more car than I ever thought it would be. I purchased a new one last week and it was entirely fueled by passion. Passion for one-of-a-kind exotic cars, passion for racing, but mostly, passion for the incredible people I have met through the club and at SRT, and that's the group I want to be part of...

[GreenVenom]

If I had a more understanding and tolerant wife, I'd have one in my garage right now, but I don't. One day I will.....
One day....Another wife or a Gen 5? :)

[VENOM V]

Excellent post flatout! I think these forums are a great way to communicate with other owners but I have to agree with Bill, When the negativity and bashing of the car starts it makes me want to turn the computer off and not even bother logging back in. When all the old club controversy was going on I wanted nothing to do with Viper. And it definitely steered me away from purchasing a new GEN V! The constant bashing of Fiat is really getting old, there would be no Viper without Sergio allowing Ralph continue the legacy.
I'm all for constructive criticism, however it tends to go way beyond constructive.
Also, It kills me when these guys talk about how 640 hp is nothing, And it should be 700. I used to be impressed with my 450 hp Gen 2.( Now before all you speed freaks go ripping on me about horsepower you must understand, I love street racing, And I have multiple old Mopar's that I do it with. Including an 1100 hp blown injected Hemi!! So back off I'm not in the mood)
The new Viper is absolutely awesome. It's way more car than I ever thought it would be. I purchased a new one last week and it was entirely fueled by passion. Passion for one-of-a-kind exotic cars, passion for racing, but mostly, passion for the incredible people I have met through the club and at SRT, and that's the group I want to be part of...

Exactly. This forum is one of the few activities that I do for fun where I actually end up debating, sometimes arguing, LOL. There's something wrong with that picture. Thank god we don't have pissing contests at our local Viper club meets. Somehow, we appreciate each other's cars and the friendships we've created without ripping into one another and nitpicking the crap out of everyone's rides. I chose a Gen V, but I truly appreciate each Viper gen and don't feel the need to be judgmental. I am simply happy for my friends because they are happy with their choice of dream car.

[BlknBlu]

I am in an older Mopar car club specializing in the Muscle Car era. We do a yearly show that brings in approx. 150 Mopars from the area. Last year Baxter Dodge, Jeep, Chrysler, SRT had a car corral and let folks drive an SRT product. We had a Viper and gave folks a spirited ride in it to see what it was all about. It was a hit at the car show and let folks know Viper is still alive.

Bruce

[Shooter]

That rude, coercive attitude won't get me to sign-up...probably ever now. I am very happy to remain an enthusiast. I may not be one of you, but you are definitely not one of us.

I agree with this. The more people that own Viper's, the better. Not everyone feels the need to belong to the club. I'm just happy it's more people to buy Gen V's, so that SRT will have the money do it right next time .:)

[Viper Girl]

I personally feel like there is a real chance we could lose the Viper platform for good, and we as an ownership base could assist in saving it as opposed to adding to it's demise. I think many of us have lost some perspective due to the changes and advancements in the competitive landscape in this sports/muscle/exotic market place. We have been spoiled with amazing performance successes from Viper since it's very beginning, and we are still at the top of what factory performance cars are capable of for just about anything south of 7 figures. The Gen V offers some exceptional improvements that the Viper has always lagged in, and although many of us don't care how many speakers, or what kind of leather the interior has, it's still an improvement on an already world class machine.

I love my gen IV ACR, and it's the perfect Viper for me and what I want a Viper to do (right now). I could sell it and another car I own and go pick up a Gen V tomorrow but I enjoy more track oriented models and will pick one up if it comes out. I can tell you though that I don't love my ACR so much that I will continue to degrade or talk down the Gen V to the point that the Viper might cease to exist.

Our ownership base is small, and the cars are rare, we have real and significant power within the market place to help our manufacturer, dealers, and buyers understand the value of the new Vipers, even if that value is to help sales enough to keep the Viper in production until which time a roadster or ACR version is released. Posting 85-89K leftover 2013's in Iowa or Missouri doesn't help our cause. I believe some of us try to influence the market (selfishly) just to make the new car more affordable so we can pick one up and enjoy the new Snake. Maybe you're a Gen V guy if they can just get down to 80K so if we keep talking about the lack of sales or performance improvements maybe you'll get to be an owner sooner than expected.

The exact oposite happens on the Ford GT forums. The ownership base is preserving and advancing the cars value along with the help of brokers that understand the demand which is many times fueled by the owners pricing speculation. They made TWICE as many Ford GT's from 2005-2006 as they made Vipers 4000 to 2000 (roughly). Still way less GT's total but wanted to add some perspective to the rarity of Viper.

Corvette owners are finally starting to realize that the cost of having a ZR1 or Z06 compete at the same level or past the Viper is not a cheap proposition. The guys that could afford the C5 Z06 (Wich the Viper killed in every category) might not be anywhere near what it will cost to get into the upcoming Z06. Performance comes at a significant price at these levels. And I believe we get more for our buck than just about any other car on the planet. The C6 Z06 was a great buy as well. I currently have 615 NA SAE RWHP from a basic car with BOLTONS and no tuning available. That's an incredible power level at this pricepoint with everything else the Viper platform has to offer.

I Apoligize for the long rant but hopefully we can do a better job of focusing on things that we would like to see improved, within the platform, while keeping in perspective just how much we currently have in the new cars. I have meet VERY few, if any, Gen V owners that don't love their new cars. I don't want this to be the end for the Viper, I want to see, enjoy, and witness how these cars evlolve over the next 50 years.

Can I get an AMEN!


Andy Wheeler
Posting reminder from OP on page 1...

[daytonprowler]

Viper Girl has a very interesting idea of how our Viper community can help the SRT dealer network. I'll let her talk about her idea.

[HobokenViper]

Drove my car for the first time today in about 4 months. Put a huge smile on my face and the world was all good again. I think that if everyone considering buying a Gen V was able to sit in the car, much less have even a couple minutes behind the wheel, they would run out and buy one immediately.

I do agree with the OP that many of us have lost our way and don't realize just how good we have it or how far the Viper has come. It's definitely the best version of the car in existence to date in so many ways, but yet so many people on here continue to tear it apart. It is an upsetting thought that there is a chance that the Viper could be discontinued if sales don't pick up, but we do have the ability as the core ownership base to help SRT get some positive PR out there about the car that is so badly needed. Stop nitpicking all the perceived shortcomings on the forums and instead post positives or at least constructive criticism. Get your Gen V's to C&C events and create a buzz among other potential buyers. People love our cars wherever we take them, sometimes even too much that they become dangerous on the road. I can't tell you how many people I run into at gas stations or car shows that don't even know what kind of car it is that I'm driving or that the Viper is back on the market again. Yet all of them rave about the new Vette or some other car that has come up the ranks in recent years.

[Viper Girl]

I've gone thru the thread, trimmed it heavily back to on topic posts. This is a really great thread Flatout. Carry on

[FLATOUT]

I've gone thru the thread, trimmed it heavily back to on topic posts. This is a really great thread Flatout. Carry on

Greatly appreciated!