Belanger Exhaust Installed by Monday

[Sniper]

I wanted to say thanks to JonB at PartsRack, Lou at Belanger, and Jeff, Jethro, and Fred at Woodhouse!
Been a long decision making process to decide what exhaust I actually wanted to go with but I ended up deciding to go with headers heat coated black, hi flo cats, 2 1/2”, black tips, and race mufflers all from Belanger.
Now that I went this far, I’m leaning now towards the Arrow PCM also but that 10 year/100,000 mile warranty is screaming at me to not do it.

45219
45220

[srtoad4]

Nice! Why only 2.5" and not 3"?

[Sniper]

Was informed the 2 1/2” makes the car a little quicker.
3” sounds a little better.
So I went with the 2 1/2”.

[ChargerMan426]

Was informed the 2 1/2” makes the car a little quicker.
3” sounds a little better.
So I went with the 2 1/2”.

People say that but when you dyno 2.5 and 3 back to back the 3 will have more power....at least in the V8 world. Engine Masters did an episode on it. Actually, they went as far to show that you'd be better off running a larger header pipe and dinging it as needed vs running a smaller size tube.

[Sniper]

You’d have to talk to Belanger about that. He said Viper is quicker with the 2 1/2”.
Also, I know for a fact more peak HP doesn’t mean the car is going to be quicker.
I had a Gen I Viper which made 402 RWHP and pulled hard on 97 Gen 2 Viper with 454 RWHP. My Gen I pulled Gen 2s with full exhaust which didn’t make them too happy back in the day.

[Sniper]

Well, won’t be installed by today.
The instructions show a hole in the exhaust for the o2 sensor but there’s not a hole.
Is this the way it is supposed to be or should it have a hole for the o2 sensor predrilled?

[SLP]

A hole...you mean a bung? You should have a bung on your y-pipe. It looks like you do unless I'm seeing a shadow.
45276

[Steve M]

O2 sensor bungs should have been installed before they were coated. To install properly (if not already there), you'll have to strip the coating off the spot where the bung will go. The bung will get welded in, and then you can figure out how you want to touch up the coating.

[Sniper]

So the o2 sensors go in the header?

[Sniper]

This is what shop said...

Do you have a link to the exhaust you bought. They either boxed it wrong or sent you the wrong kit. It is missing wholes in the exhaust behind the cats for the o2 sensors. Paperwork in box shows it has holes, even has o2 sensor extensions for them, but pipe does not have hole.*

[Steve M]

Pre-cat O2 sensors will go in the collectors on each side (where SLP pointed above). Post cat O2 sensors may not have been included if you are running an Arrow PCM. Are you?

[Sniper]

No, I’m not.

[Steve M]

In that case, there should have been O2 sensor bungs installed after the cats as well. The cats will be in the sills.

Detailed pics of everything you were sent would be helpful.

[SLP]

Sounds like you have the upstream sensor bungs (important ones) but not the downstream ones that measure cat efficiency. The downstream sensors are often deleted by people who modify their viper. Would recommend doing a search on here for more information and/or calling belanger to discuss.

[Sniper]

Straight from Belanger:

The O2 sensor bungs are in the tail pipes , not right behind the cat anymore, he probably just didn’t look at the two black coated tail pipes to see that the bungs are there

Just have him look in the tail pipe, right in the center of the outside of the bend there will be a bung and the O2 sensor extensions are longer than they were before and they need to route them down the tunnel next to the driveshaft then turn the corner and bolts straight into the tail pipe

Thanks for everyone’s responses!

[Steve M]

Clever - putting them near the exit will make the cats look like they are doing an extra good job. Not sure I'd want to be running wiring harness extensions through the tunnel, but shouldn't be an issue as long as they secure them properly.

[cashcorn]

Can you take a pic of the new tail pipe with the bung? thanks!

[Sniper]

It’s at Woodhouse 2 1/2 hours away from me atm.
When I get the car back, I will try to take a pic for you.

[cashcorn]

Sniper, I just checked mine. I also have Belanger headers with their hi-flow cats & a stock mufflers. It's just like you said. With the headers being longer, there is no room for the hi-flow cat so it is after the turn.

[Sniper]

I wasn’t able to get a pic as when I picked it up, it was already off the lift but here’s about where the 2nd sensor should be...

45294

[Sniper]

The sound is LOUD!
And the sound matches the cars looks now.
It brings back the feeling I had in my old Gen I.
The tone is hard to describe but it’s perfect!
I absolutely hated the stock exhaust sound.
Thank you Belanger!!!!!!!!

[Sniper]

Little sound clip, sound is way better than the vid captures...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMw6PUwGvIA

[Scott_in_fl]

Gotta admit, that sounds pretty damn good!

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

It will sound even better when you install the PCM....esp on DeCel.

[Sniper]

The sound in person is insane!

Jon, you know that’s my dilemma,
warranty or not to warranty...

Jon, thank you for getting me hooked up with this insane exhaust!!!

[Jack B]

I hope you did not use the gaskets in the pic.

[Sniper]

That is not my exhaust, just a pic off the internet to show where the sensors are.

[Jack B]

The metal oem gaskets are bullet proof.


That is not my exhaust, just a pic off the internet to show where the sensors are.

[nwa_viper]

The metal oem gaskets are bullet proof.

Reuse them or get a new OEM pair when doing headers? I’ll be installing ARH during winter.

[inquirer86]

I'll triple that and say that does sound great!

[Matt Dillon]

Sounds Great, that's always been my dilemma also! I want a Tune more than Anything but I just don't think it's worth throwing away my Mopar Warranty, Almost Maybe but not Quite :( Your car looks Awesome too, perfect color & Everything :)

[Sniper]

Thanks for the comments!

Matt, yes, perfect color LOL!
Funny we have same first name too...

[swexlin]

I agree on the color....!!

[Sniper]

LOL, triplets!

[Steve M]

Reuse them or get a new OEM pair when doing headers? I’ll be installing ARH during winter.

They are reusable.

[ViperPete]

I wasn’t able to get a pic as when I picked it up, it was already off the lift but here’s about where the 2nd sensor should be...

45294


Secondary o2 does not go there. It goes just after the cat. At least thats how my Belangers came...


https://driveviper.com/forums/cache.php?img=http%3A%2F%2Fi23.photobucket.com%2Fa lbums%2Fb398%2Fskyy406%2FViper%2520header%2520inst all%2F4EC74D1D-C2A3-4903-9A43-FADC95BC0F48_zpsfb6aicqr.jpg

[ViperPete]

Also,

the longer I have my car with the belangers, the more i do not like the sound. Its never been "great" only good. Im seriosuly thinking about getting the corsa catback instead. I wish my Viper could sound like my SRT10.

[silver7iron]

Also,

the longer I have my car with the belangers, the more i do not like the sound. Its never been "great" only good. Im seriosuly thinking about getting the corsa catback instead. I wish my Viper could sound like my SRT10.

Same. I've had Belanger headers and HFC for 3 years and I'm making the switch now - Corsa with catless J-pipes.

[cso19]

Same. I've had Belanger headers and HFC for 3 years and I'm making the switch now - Corsa with catless J-pipes.

What don't you like abut the Belanger headers and HFC? When you switch are you going back to stock headers or whats your plan?

[Sniper]

Secondary cats do go where I posted pic, new design.

The sound of my car is perfect!!!!!!!
Loud, has perfect tone, and even sounds so good when shifting gears,
heads turn before they even see the car now...
I have the headers, 1 ho flo cat on each side, and race mufflers.

Is the sound too loud for you is why you don’t like it?

[Fulltilt]

Sniper - First off, your car sounds incredible. I might be wrong but your car sounds different than some of the other Belanger setups I have heard. I've been putting off headers/exhaust for 4yrs now (mostly because of my extended warranty) but I'm thinking of getting myself a nice Christmas present this year. I was thinking ARH with Corsa but after hearing your car you have me thinking Belanger again.

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

Same. I've had Belanger headers and HFC for 3 years and I'm making the switch now - Corsa with catless J-pipes.

On a G5 Stock PCM ?!


A LOT of different factors define the predictable sound profile. And YES, The Year Matters.

At least you know your take-off Belangers / HFCs have a resale value in classifieds...but you might wait a few weeks/miles.

[Sniper]

Fulltilt, thank you!
I can honestly say the sound matches the car now.

I can’t comment on Corsas, never heard in person.

[Sniper]

Question: if I went the avenue of PCM, which one does anyone suggest?
Arrow or HPTuners?

[Gen5snake]

People say that but when you dyno 2.5 and 3 back to back the 3 will have more power....at least in the V8 world. Engine Masters did an episode on it. Actually, they went as far to show that you'd be better off running a larger header pipe and dinging it as needed vs running a smaller size tube.

It's all about the area under the torque & hp curves. I'm sure the 3" produced better peak numbers, but the 2.5" produced more area under the curves....over all more power across the rpm range.

[Fulltilt]

On a G5 Stock PCM ?!


A LOT of different factors define the predictable sound profile. And YES, The Year Matters.

At least you know your take-off Belangers / HFCs have a resale value in classifieds...but you might wait a few weeks/miles.

Jon, can you elaborate on the years making a difference, please?

[Jack B]

Lou Belanger was steadfast about using the 2.5 tubes. However, the HC/9L seemed to be less forgiving, in other words there were some hp restrictions with some exhaust systems..That is a heads-up not a negative on 2.5 tubes . Lastly, I do not believe there has been a comparison of 2.5 vs 3 tubes on a HC/9L

[Sniper]

Here’s pic where 2nd O2 sensor is...

45465

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

Jon, can you elaborate on the years making a difference, please?


Many well-meaning posters ASSume their answer is accurate and helpful. But often it is NOT an apples-to-apples comparo. Unless the year-model-mods-PCM program are the same as the inquiring owner has, or intends, some forum replies wont be relevant or accurate.

[sssammm]

Can i ask a question, what did you do re the upstream O2 sensors with the bung situated at the end of the collector, did you use an extension? the reason i ask, my sensor wires now dont reach the bung, i did not get upstream extensions with my kit
and im being told by belangers that i dont need the the sensor in the collector, im sure that it monitors AF??

any ideas here

[Steve M]

Can i ask a question, what did you do re the upstream O2 sensors with the bung situated at the end of the collector, did you use an extension? the reason i ask, my sensor wires now dont reach the bung, i did not get upstream extensions with my kit
and im being told by belangers that i dont need the the sensor in the collector, im sure that it monitors AF??

any ideas here

It would help to know the exact mods you have done to your car.

Are you running the stock PCM or not?
If not, then what are you running? The Prefix/Arrow PCM?

If you are stock heads/cam, either of those will require the pre-cat O2 sensor for closed loop fueling feedback. That bung should be in the collector, although I've seen some manufacturers install them in one of the centrally located primary tubes closer to the engine block.

If the wires won't reach, you'll need an extension.

All this goes out the window if you are running something like a 9L - those apparently don't run in closed loop at any time.

[sssammm]

everything is stock, in my gen 4 Belanger sustem, the bung was in the upper tube, now its right down by the collector,
Belanger keep telling me i dont need the upstream sensors which is nuts

[Steve M]

everything is stock, in my gen 4 Belanger sustem, the bung was in the upper tube, now its right down by the collector,
Belanger keep telling me i dont need the upstream sensors which is nuts

So stock PCM (with stock calibration) with a full Belanger exhaust - got it.

In that case, you most definitely need the upstream sensors AND the downstream sensors unless you are okay with the PCM throwing codes. I'm not even sure how well the car will run without the primary O2 sensors - it would force the PCM into open loop operation. It certainly wouldn't be ideal.

Either way, get a pair of extensions - don't try to cut and splice the wires in the existing harness.

[GTS Dean]

When you go to true tubular headers, you can put your original O2s in a single primary pipe near the location of the stock manifold collector. This will not give you the average of all 5 cylinders in that bank, but keeps your harness stock. Moving them to the new collector location gives more accurate bank metering, but requires longer sensor wiring. The primary O2s are what the ECU utilizes to update adaptive tuning. The downstreams are there to monitor catalyst operational efficiency.

[Jack B]

Correct, the 9L has a fixed base map, even WOT.


It would help to know the exact mods you have done to your car.

Are you running the stock PCM or not?
If not, then what are you running? The Prefix/Arrow PCM?

If you are stock heads/cam, either of those will require the pre-cat O2 sensor for closed loop fueling feedback. That bung should be in the collector, although I've seen some manufacturers install them in one of the centrally located primary tubes closer to the engine block.

If the wires won't reach, you'll need an extension.

All this goes out the window if you are running something like a 9L - those apparently don't run in closed loop at any time.

[The Frenchy]

interesting topic i want to go on full Belanger System Headers High Flow Cats but i don't know what size is the best ... some of my friends tell me 3" and some others tell me 2.5" so what is the best and why ?

[Steve M]

interesting topic i want to go on full Belanger System Headers High Flow Cats but i don't know what size is the best ... some of my friends tell me 3" and some others tell me 2.5" so what is the best and why ?

You'll find anecdotal evidence at best to answer this question. Some will claim the 2.5" will produce better torque down low with a little loss in HP in the upper RPMs, some will claim the 3" does the opposite (less torque down low with a little HP gain in upper RPMs), and some will claim the 3" does better across the board. What no one will have (at least not that I've seen) is good solid data to back any of that up outside of how it feels, and almost no one will have tried both.

If you plan on sticking with a stock engine, I'd guess either will work well enough. If it were my car, I'd do the 3" system to give myself room to grow in the future, as you never know when you might want to add power.

There are more important questions you'll need to answer first, though:

1. What are your emissions requirements?
2. Are you planning on tuning of any sort to maximize the benefits?

If you aren't planning on any tuning (i.e. you are going to use the stock PCM with the stock calibration), then you will end up with an overly restrictive set of "high flow" cats that will pretty much negate any benefits you might find. That's the only way to keep the stock PCM from throwing codes.

If you plan on doing something like the Arrow/Prefix PCM, that'll give you much more flexibility, including the ability to run no cats at all while still not throwing any codes.

[camarochevy1970]

You'll find anecdotal evidence at best to answer this question. Some will claim the 2.5" will produce better torque down low with a little loss in HP in the upper RPMs, some will claim the 3" does the opposite (less torque down low with a little HP gain in upper RPMs), and some will claim the 3" does better across the board. What no one will have (at least not that I've seen) is good solid data to back any of that up outside of how it feels, and almost no one will have tried both.
While not on a Viper, Engine Masters has done Dyno comparisons of different exhaust systems/sizes etc and shown that a larger exhaust doesn't hurt power numbers, where a smaller one can. However a larger exhaust may also not improve the power, can cost more, and weighs more

[Steve M]

While not on a Viper, Engine Masters has done Dyno comparisons of different exhaust systems/sizes etc and shown that a larger exhaust doesn't hurt power numbers, where a smaller one can. However a larger exhaust may also not improve the power, can cost more, and weighs more

I'd believe that, although it would be nice to see something specifically for the Gen 4/5 Viper engines (which will never happen).

The stock cam has a very small exhaust lobe (at least according to the specs I've seen), so the details don't seem to matter quite as much on the exhaust side.

Once you go to a different cam, however, exhaust sizing (primary diameter, collector diameter, etc.) becomes much more important for power production, as you'd expect.

[The Frenchy]

You'll find anecdotal evidence at best to answer this question. Some will claim the 2.5" will produce better torque down low with a little loss in HP in the upper RPMs, some will claim the 3" does the opposite (less torque down low with a little HP gain in upper RPMs), and some will claim the 3" does better across the board. What no one will have (at least not that I've seen) is good solid data to back any of that up outside of how it feels, and almost no one will have tried both.

If you plan on sticking with a stock engine, I'd guess either will work well enough. If it were my car, I'd do the 3" system to give myself room to grow in the future, as you never know when you might want to add power.

There are more important questions you'll need to answer first, though:

1. What are your emissions requirements?
2. Are you planning on tuning of any sort to maximize the benefits?

If you aren't planning on any tuning (i.e. you are going to use the stock PCM with the stock calibration), then you will end up with an overly restrictive set of "high flow" cats that will pretty much negate any benefits you might find. That's the only way to keep the stock PCM from throwing codes.

If you plan on doing something like the Arrow/Prefix PCM, that'll give you much more flexibility, including the ability to run no cats at all while still not throwing any codes.

i will add k&n air filter and tune PCM by Lola Race ( Eric Warnant )
We can't run catless in France so only high flow cat

[Steve M]

i will add k&n air filter and tune PCM by Lola Race ( Eric Warnant )
We can't run catless in France so only high flow cat

Sounds good...whoever you order the exhaust through, just make sure you ask for high flow cats are truly high flow units, not just small cats designed to keep the stock PCM happy.

[AAA96]

Considering a full Belanger system in the near future. After reading this whole thread I am leaning toward 3” so I have room to grow in the event I cam it in the future. Any idea how the stock computer will run with no cats? (Florida car with no emissions req). Or should I plan to do a pcm at the same time? Thanks.

[Jack B]

You will set a CEL, either the Arrow pcm or HPT would be needed to make it work.



Considering a full Belanger system in the near future. After reading this whole thread I am leaning toward 3” so I have room to grow in the event I cam it in the future. Any idea how the stock computer will run with no cats? (Florida car with no emissions req). Or should I plan to do a pcm at the same time? Thanks.

[sssammm]

I recently fitted a 3" Belanger full system, only thing i had to do was have some O2 sensor cables made for the downstream as Belanger now
has the bung right down by the exit, and to get 2.4m cables, there is a guy in the US who supplied them made up in heatsheilding
if you need let me know ill post their details

[AAA96]

Thanks Sam, will let you know when I get there.

Jack, I figured as much. Might as well just do them both when the time is right.

Anyone know how much of a sound difference no cats make?