Alignment

[sadil]

Any tips on getting a proper alignment done on the car? I have never done one and I want to get it done right but also not spend a fortune. Do most shops do a decent job? Any issues with getting a viper on the rack or is there any specific equipment that is preferred for our cars? Just throwing this out there and hoping for some feedback from people that do alignments often enough to know a good and bad one.

[SLP]

I just started doing research on this and here are some of the directions alignments can go from what I can tell so far:

1) Standard alignment to TA specs = good
2) TKO bumpsteer kit install and standard alignment = better
3) Corner weighting and bumpsteer adjustment = best
4) TKO bumpsteer kit & corner weighting & Bumpsteer adjustment = unnecessary for most but best possible.

I am going with option #2 from a reputable racing shop that will check if I need to do CW/bump adjustment after the TKO kit is installed.

[bluesrt]

if you want to save money on a alignment/ dont bother- take it to a qualified shop or race set up shop that can give you a perfect street alignment, usually big box tire shops are non qualified and will actually send you backwards and charge you, no issues on getting it on a rack if they have the proper equipment, i have a top of the line hunter that all lowered vipers roll right on

[Steve M]

A proper alignment from someone that knows what they are doing is going to cost you. As was already stated, if you are looking to save money, don't bother. bluesrt's advice is solid - an alignment machine is only as good as the tech using it, and most don't give two shits about you or your car. Skip the big chain stores...they will set it to "factory specs", and move on to the next job. They usually get paid by the job, and aren't going to want to spend hours screwing around with a custom alignment of any sort.

Your best bet is likely going to be finding a shop that caters to racers...they should know how to do an alignment, and if they don't, they'll know someone who does. You can also buy some equipment to do it yourself, but it is a tedious process. Alignment specs for all variants of a Gen 5 have been posted on here many times, and are a good starting point for whatever you are trying to do. This is where you also need to be 100% honest about how you use your car, because an alignment that will give you awesome performance on the race track may not be ideal on the street when it comes to tire wear and overall stability.

[Bill Pemberton]

Follow BlueSRT and Steve M's advice ---- check around for a solid race or mod shop and ask them if they corner weight the car when doing an alignment. Even if you don't want that done, it is often a good indicator of how sharp they are. If they ask what corner weighting is , just mosey on down the road, that is one place you can check off your list!!

[sharmut]

In addition to the earlier responses in terms of a proper shop, you may want to consider using the ACR alignment specs. I use those specs on my TA with 295x30x18/345x30x19 Toyo R888Rs to reduce the understeer.

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

Follow BlueSRT and Steve M's advice ---- check around for a solid race or mod shop and ask them if they corner weight the car when doing an alignment. Even if you don't want that done, it is often a good indicator of how sharp they are. If they ask what corner weighting is , just mosey on down the road, that is one place you can check off your list!!

100% agree with Bill and everyone else. If you want a complete setup and your gonna spend good money make sure the shop has a setup rig ( roll on roll off) or at least a specific spot in the shop where they set up and level scale pads. Make sure they ask you how much you weigh with helmet and driving suit.... If you have that info. When you have it done ask for a print out or at least a screen shot, total weight, cross weights, and % front rear you want to make sure your getting what you pay for. Shops that do proper set up are few and far between these days unfortunately.

[sadil]

Thank you for the responses. I will have to find something locally in Michigan. Detroit area that does race cars.

[SRT_BluByU]

There are Viper
Specific tools needed to set the REAR caster on the viper that only the SRT authorized dealers likely have. Ive heard Viper is one of few cars where you can set rear caster... getting a good job correctly is hard. My local dealer took like 5 different days.attempts to get it right.. i think they finally did.. ive got 18000 daily driven miles on the corsas with 3/32-4/32” tread reamining.. its unbelievable. Granted these are mostly easy highway miles..

[Bryan Savage]

Since there's some well-experienced folks in this thread, I must ask about the validity of two things.

Disclaimer: I was an ASE almost-Master Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge tech for four years. Gold-level 5-Star Certified for two. (Got the diamond ring and everything!) Though alignments weren't my specialty, I could get them done if I needed to. The dealer I used to work at had a Hunter laser reflector-plate rack.

#1 Proper Weighting

Never once did I ask a customer to sit in their car (or show up with it loaded with what they usually drive with) for an alignment. These were street cars. Set them to factory ranges with pre-and post test drives to make sure they aren't pulling or scrubbing tires, ship it. On a super-twitchy racing car with solid suspension links and no slop in the system, I most definitely understand how the compressed suspension from the weight of the driver could minutely change the alignment and cause some problems. My question here is... like, how much are we talking here?? whole degrees?? Tenths of degrees? You racers out there with inhuman levels of sensitivity, can you really tell the difference between alignments performed with you in or out of the car?

#2 Corner Weighting

I hear all about this too, but unless you have adjustable-height coilovers, does modifying alignment angles do anything at all for this? None of them adjust ride height, so if you're not doing anything but tweaking tire geometry, how does it change corner weights?

I've also always assumed the purpose of corner balancing a car is to adapt where the mass is depending on the track you're on. For example, the driver's weight might be offset by small ride height adjustments to keep say, a 50/50 crossweight. But for a street car?? Really?? Even with adjustable suspension, unless the driver weighs 400 pounds, can you racers tell?? Hell, I weigh 270 and my car tracks straight as an arrow.

I guess what I'm saying is... what's wrong with having a competent dealer just align you to OE specs and kick you out the door? I cannot agree with the notion that these cars require $3,000 alignments that can only be performed by a dedicated racing facility by men in white lab coats.

Discuss.

[bluesrt]

a normal street alignment from a competent tech is fine for the street with good equipment i agree

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

Since there's some well-experienced folks in this thread, I must ask about the validity of two things.

Disclaimer: I was an ASE almost-Master Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge tech for four years. Gold-level 5-Star Certified for two. (Got the diamond ring and everything!) Though alignments weren't my specialty, I could get them done if I needed to. The dealer I used to work at had a Hunter laser reflector-plate rack.

#1 Proper Weighting

Never once did I ask a customer to sit in their car (or show up with it loaded with what they usually drive with) for an alignment. These were street cars. Set them to factory ranges with pre-and post test drives to make sure they aren't pulling or scrubbing tires, ship it. On a super-twitchy racing car with solid suspension links and no slop in the system, I most definitely understand how the compressed suspension from the weight of the driver could minutely change the alignment and cause some problems. My question here is... like, how much are we talking here?? whole degrees?? Tenths of degrees? You racers out there with inhuman levels of sensitivity, can you really tell the difference between alignments performed with you in or out of the car?

#2 Corner Weighting

I hear all about this too, but unless you have adjustable-height coilovers, does modifying alignment angles do anything at all for this? None of them adjust ride height, so if you're not doing anything but tweaking tire geometry, how does it change corner weights?

I've also always assumed the purpose of corner balancing a car is to adapt where the mass is depending on the track you're on. For example, the driver's weight might be offset by small ride height adjustments to keep say, a 50/50 crossweight. But for a street car?? Really?? Even with adjustable suspension, unless the driver weighs 400 pounds, can you racers tell?? Hell, I weigh 270 and my car tracks straight as an arrow.

I guess what I'm saying is... what's wrong with having a competent dealer just align you to OE specs and kick you out the door? I cannot agree with the notion that these cars require $3,000 alignments that can only be performed by a dedicated racing facility by men in white lab coats.

Discuss.

Great questions Bryan
For standard street viper basic alignment its not necessary to have driver weight in car or have mock weight in the seat. Standard alignment numbers are also ok for street and fun weekend track day here and there. If your going to get after it on track with your viper or you do alot of track days then the recommended factory alignment numbers are not what you want and you want to look into a proper setup.

Putting a setup on a car for maximum performance this is when you need to add all the details. The whole idea of racing or using your car to its maximum work envelope is to remove variables as much as possible; removing variables and increasing consistency is the key to being successful and safe in motorsports. You need the car wet, oil, water, half tank fuel( viper full tank of fuel) tires at hot pressure. You want to get as close as possible to how the car will be at the track.

Balancing the car for road race, hillclimbs or spirited street driving is essential. If the car is balanced it will react more predictably right or left turns, braking and acceleration. Remember the key is consistency


3000.00 for a setup is ridiculous. Vipers standard coilovers, minimal aero initial setup shouldnt take more then 4 hours. These are very easy cars to setup

[Steve M]

#1 Proper Weighting
...
#2 Corner Weighting
...


I've only ever heard of someone doing #1 if they are doing #2. And as you pointed out, corner weighting a car requires adjusting the ride height, so if you can't do that, none of this matters.

Where corner weighting becomes important is when you are trying to squeeze every last ounce of performance out of a car. I'd doubt anyone would notice the difference on the street, but then again, I've never had it done, so I can't really comment. And to be clear, the reason I haven't had it done is because of two things:

1. I've never found a local shop that I'd trust with my Viper to do a proper corner weighting/alignment
2. Buying the equipment to do it yourself costs a lot of money...maybe one of these years when I get another stimulus check.

In order to properly corner weight and align the car, it requires a perfectly flat, level surface, a set of scales, a good way to roll the car on/off the scales between adjustments so things can settle, and all of the other stuff you'd normally need for an alignment (either an alignment rack, or caster/camber gauge, a set of smart strings, and a good eye). The process is iterative, so it takes a while. Every time you adjust the ride height, you throw off the alignment, so there's a lot of tail chasing involved. I was told to expect 4-5 hours, so I'd expect the cost to be somewhere around $500, maybe a little more. Certainly not $3,000, unless it comes with a happy ending of some sort. And I'd better be like really, really happy.

And then there's this:


There are Viper Specific tools needed to set the REAR caster on the viper that only the SRT authorized dealers likely have. Ive heard Viper is one of few cars where you can set rear caster... getting a good job correctly is hard. My local dealer took like 5 different days.attempts to get it right.. i think they finally did.. ive got 18000 daily driven miles on the corsas with 3/32-4/32” tread reamining.. its unbelievable. Granted these are mostly easy highway miles..

I was told this same thing by Mark Jorgensen many years back. In fact, I saved the email:


...adjust the camber by moving BOTH lower eccentric bolts in the lower control arm equal amounts so you do not mess with the caster the factory has. Without the correct tools from Chrysler and a knowledgeable tech you cannot measure the caster so this is critical.

So yes, an incompetent tech can actually screw up a Viper alignment. Would it be the end of the world? No clue, but I'm also not willing to find out.

[Bryan Savage]

3000.00 for a setup is ridiculous. Vipers standard coilovers, minimal aero initial setup shouldnt take more then 4 hours. These are very easy cars to setup


I've only ever heard of someone doing #1 if they are doing #2. And as you pointed out, corner weighting a car requires adjusting the ride height, so if you can't do that, none of this matters.

Where corner weighting becomes important is when you are trying to squeeze every last ounce of performance out of a car. I'd doubt anyone would notice the difference on the street, but then again, I've never had it done, so I can't really comment. And to be clear, the reason I haven't had it done is because of two things:

1. I've never found a local shop that I'd trust with my Viper to do a proper corner weighting/alignment
2. Buying the equipment to do it yourself costs a lot of money...maybe one of these years when I get another stimulus check.

In order to properly corner weight and align the car, it requires a perfectly flat, level surface, a set of scales, a good way to roll the car on/off the scales between adjustments so things can settle, and all of the other stuff you'd normally need for an alignment (either an alignment rack, or caster/camber gauge, a set of smart strings, and a good eye). The process is iterative, so it takes a while. Every time you adjust the ride height, you throw off the alignment, so there's a lot of tail chasing involved. I was told to expect 4-5 hours, so I'd expect the cost to be somewhere around $500, maybe a little more. Certainly not $3,000, unless it comes with a happy ending of some sort. And I'd better be like really, really happy.

And then there's this:

I was told this same thing by Mark Jorgensen many years back. In fact, I saved the email:

So yes, an incompetent tech can actually screw up a Viper alignment. Would it be the end of the world? No clue, but I'm also not willing to find out.

I totally made up the $3,000 comment I made. It's just a pet peeve of mine when I read anything at all on these forums that implies that somehow the Gen V car is fragile or weak. We got people afraid to drive their cars, afraid of engine oil, afraid of engine failure, afraid of rear defrosters, afraid of oil lines, afraid of inadequate brakes, afraid of Uconnect updates, afraid of tires that are older than six months, and afraid of the car's paint.

While all the items I just listed have absolutely happened, it does not mean they will happen to every car. There is absolutely zero need to replace every part of the car with a super-high dollar upgrade before you hit the street with yours. You don't need $10,000 worth of clear wrap and ceramic coating before you can let air molecules touch the car. I don't want people to be afraid of a wheel alignment too.

Any bad service provider can screw anything up, but the Viper is not a McLaren F1. It's a Dodge. A pipe wrench and a hammer can align one in all the ways that you should care about. If you can find a competent shop and develop a history with them, you will get good service. If you show up to a place you've never been before, expect a white-glove treatment, and then never go back when you don't get it, well, you'll never be treated the way you want. Foster a good reputation with your dealer and they will treat you well.

/end rant

Anywho, caster is a non-tire-wearing adjustment, and I've really never heard of it ever needing to be adjusted. You can add caster plates at the top of a strut in some vehicles to change caster, and it will affect steering response (think shopping cart wheels), but on the rear? We don't have 4WS, so I don't see how being able to adjust rear caster would do anything. Does it actually do anything?

I own a set of corner scales and ramps you could use Steve, but I can't help you with a level surface and alignment rack. I'm also sure we're also hundreds of miles apart, but if you were really curious and could find a willing shop, we could figure something out.

43581

[ACR Steve]

If you are a driver that pushes the car get it corner balanced . It does make a difference

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

We go over and explain things like alignment, corner balancing, weight jacking, toe in toe out, caster etc, etc in our vendor sponsor area every friday. TKO MOTORSPORTS TIPS AND TRACK TWEAKS. Discussion, and questions are always encouraged