More Exclusive than an F Car or Lambo

[Policy Limits]

Found this on Fakebook. Does it look correct? I wonder which % are ACR cars?

Really cool how all 5 generations were such low production volume over the course of 1/4 Century.

[Hamrhead]

Does this mean my '15 will go up in value?



I won't hold my breath...

[Fourtrax250r]

While i guess it helped “exclusivity “ it also ended production of our beloved viper. We have no car to root for on race day and are tracking a car that will be 3-4 yeArs out of production. I would have rather it been a good seller for FCA to give them a reason to continue R&D on the car and continue with a 6th generation. Farrari sold approximately 9200 cars in 2018 and Lamborghini sold 5700 cars in 2018. Those brands are still considered “exclusive “ . IMO, besides maybe the ACR and TA , all other trims Of the gen V will lose considerable value going forward as technology increases in the sports car world.

[Policy Limits]

There was data from the same source showing low production numbers for all of the other four generations too. Therefore, I don't think the exclusivity is unique to the fifth generation.

It seems that government regulations killed the car more than low sales numbers. But I definitely remember somewhere in the middle of the generation's production when the plant temporarily closed. I bought two new gen V's, the first & last years of the generation and did my part. It seems unlikely that a gen 6 will be coming since we're now three production years out from the last year made in 2017.

[parabs]

Attached is Plum’s info that I saved at some point. I understand that Plum and ViperJeff have quite solid data on production numbers for Viper across the entire run.

41161

[Fourtrax250r]

There was data from the same source showing low production numbers for all of the other four generations too. Therefore, I don't think the exclusivity is unique to the fifth generation.

It seems that government regulations killed the car more than low sales numbers. But I definitely remember somewhere in the middle of the generation's production when the plant temporarily closed. I bought two new gen V's, the first & last years of the generation and did my part. It seems unlikely that a gen 6 will be coming since we're now three production years out from the last year made in 2017.

I can’t help but think FCA would have found a way to comply with federal regulations if it was making money with the Viper. They would have built more if the orders/demand was there. I purchased 3 gen. V’s 1 GTS and 2 ACR’s. Hopefully I’ll get to purchase a gen 6 one day :United_States:

[Vipes]

Attached is Plum’s info that I saved at some point. I understand that Plum and ViperJeff have quite solid data on production numbers for Viper across the entire run.

41161

Woooah never seen chart before! Very cool to see the 2015-2017 TA 1.0/2.0 numbers match the count we have in the TA thread.

[J TNT]

Had they built a Convertible or Targa Top they would have had a few exemptions till 2021....
And Convertible sales typically are 2 for every hard top which would have helped production numbers , seems like the powers that be where not all in.......

[Fourtrax250r]

Had they built a Convertible or Targa Top they would have had a few exemptions till 2021....
And Convertible sales typically are 2 for every hard top which would have helped production numbers , seems like the powers that be where not all in.......

Agreed, FCA brass overall did not support the Viper.

[ACRSNK]

FCA Brass supported the Challenger

[Bruce H.]

Agreed, FCA brass overall did not support the Viper.

Not since September 2014 and the MY15 release when Tim took over from Ralph, celebrated his appointment by axing the SRT brand and SRT Motorsports race team...and slashed the MSRP by $15,000 just to make sure previous buyers were paying attention. When the ACR was released for MY2016 he was quick to suddenly set as many track records as possible and then promote the shit out of it with advertisements featuring himself, all while he planned the axing of the car the following year. Tim has much to take credit for...thank you Tim.

[ViperJon]

Gen V Viper sales were dismal till the announcement of (1) the ACR(E) and it's various alterations and most importantly (2) the end of production. That is what spurred the increased sales in the last two years. They were limping along at 50 a month before that.

[SharpMan]

Gen V Viper sales were dismal till the announcement of (1) the ACR(E) and it's various alterations and most importantly (2) the end of production. That is what spurred the increased sales in the last two years. They were limping along at 50 a month before that.

Classic car company move of getting it right just in time to kill it!

[uvbnbit]

Attached is Plum’s info that I saved at some point. I understand that Plum and ViperJeff have quite solid data on production numbers for Viper across the entire run.

41161

Did they ever finish the color breakdown for 2017 on the registry?

[SilveRT8]

Attached is Plum’s info that I saved at some point. I understand that Plum and ViperJeff have quite solid data on production numbers for Viper across the entire run.

41161

WOW ! If the chart is right, my 2016 GTC / TA 2.0 is really a 1 of 1 , along with a 2017 TA 2.0 and TA 1.0

[quickster2]

The decision to not invest in the platform further was made by the brass in 2015. FMVSS 226 was the stake through the heart. Tim's big head was just a speed bump. In 2016 & 2017 they could not keep up with demand mainly with the specialty suppliers. Se la vie!

[Scott_in_fl]

There are lots of "exclusive" cars, like the Plymouth Prowler, Pontiac Aztec, etc. But you see the point that I'm making -- if you're measuring exclusivity by production numbers, you may be confusing automotive exotica (highly desirable) with automotive shitopia (not desirable).

Lucky for us, I think the Gen V is on the right side of this coin. Judging from reviews, social media posts, and firsthand experience, the cars are very highly respected and appreciated by all ages. The cars have a great presence about them and are future classics for sure.

As for the numbers, it is awesome (in both a good and bad way) to see how few were built. It all but guarantees future price appreciation, but also reveals the galactic incompetence of FCA. How such a great car could be so entirely dismissed by such a large and consumptive global sports car market is astounding. So many brands saw resurgences in sports car sales during the Gen V years, yet FCA entirely missed it. If the car were crap, that would be one thing, but it was not.

It should have kept racing (it won the GTLM Championship in 2014), it should have kept going to LeMans, it should have been battling it out with Team Corvette C7R and then FordGT (in '17/'18). The ACR/E should have been a genuine wide-body car like the racer, should have been an H/C car, and should have sold for $200k+, built to order. If nobody wanted one, then no big deal as they would all be built on the same line -- you just continue to build GTS, TA, and ACR for the masses.

But I think FCA would have sold some -- and might have had to limit the number available (and give first dibs to prior owners). There are plenty of enthusiasts (and posers) that would have spent almost any amount of $$$ to have the wildest looking car on the road. And at the very least, FCA would have had a genuine halo car at a genuine halo price and the cars would have generated huge brand awareness and goodwill.

Just like whenever a new FGT rolls into the local C&C, could you imagine a wide body GT3R with H/C rolling in, with OEM level interior finishes, etc? What???? That would have been sick!!!

[Wtracing]

Its just sad to me how it all ended. The Viper program had more diehard car guys involved with it than any other current day program imo. The final days before it died you could hear and feel the frustration and disappointment in Ralphs posts on IG.

They really should have offered a convertible like other said, not my cup of tea but the lines do flow really well on the medusa ones. Some people say they should have added an auto for sales alone, and honestly I agree.

It had traction control now and way more luxury than previous years so if for nothing else than more sales to keep the thing alive I wish they would have.. thoughts? I heard once they didn't cause it "wouldn't fit" but that's false with all the Gm auto ones that have been swapped after. The death of this program (again) was just so damn sad and such a wasted opportunity, totally agree with they should have kept the race program, couldn't believe they killed it so soon. :mad:

[Whiskey]

I agree. G5 is by far the best Viper. They needed to add a Vert and an 8sp Auto and they would not have been able to make enough of them.

The handling and the way the rear is just planted makes it so F-ING good. It's the first viper I can throttle steer on the street without fear of death. I can dance with this car, not wrestle it. Light clutch and easy throws makes it an excellent daily driver. Seats could use lumbar support and a shorter seat bottom but other than that excellent car. Oh and this GTS interior is perfect 👌

[gfviperman]

The 8 speed auto was the key to keep moving forward ...

today's young guys with $$$ do NOT want to row gears ...

[J TNT]

If I remember correctly the 8 speed auto would not fit in the existing frame and would require a new and federally approved new frame at a substantial cost ........
Had SRT Engineers known that was the end game, they could have made provisions for it when the frame was originally designed....

[Whiskey]

The 8sp would fit as a transaxle. It would also push more weight over the rear tires making it something like 45f/55r in weight distribution. The car would Launch like a AWD car with the right suspension setup. The massive tires would have more grip with a bit more weight on them. Could you imagine the grip with tires that actually take up all available room back there. From my own measurements a 385 wide tire would fit without going widebody.

315's up front and 385's rear would be absolute bonkers in mechanical grip.

[Policy Limits]

I thought it was funny how at the start of the generation the Viper purists were mostly naysayers. Especially since to me the car looked like a modern featured retro car like a gen II on steroids. Their business team failed from marketing to quality control to production. They finally got it right towards the end. It started with the TA and was reinforced by the ACR Extreme. the 1 of 1 program went well too. It was from lessons learned of customers with good money deposits down waiting while they built other cars that no one ordered nor wanted. It's a niche clientele that doesnt just want a sportscar. We want our names on dash plaques, numbered editions and a car that does 7:01 at the Ring with rear wheel drive and manual transmission and all without manufacturer support.

At least it went out on top!

[TheLoRyder]

I don't know if you guys consider 35 young, but I do enjoy rowing the gears of my Viper.
I don't enjoy rowing the gears of a 1.4L Diesel Turbo Rental in Germany.

31,947 Vipers total in all years of production makes for a special car. That's about how many Corvettes are built in an individual year. I think the Ferrari 458 was selling 5,000 units a year. Lower numbers is great to make a car special but it's a double edged sword, because low sales numbers doesn't make a car manufacturer money.

I love the Viper because it held true to it's heritage, it's truly American and didn't compromise. At the same time it's probably dead because it didn't compromise. Automatic. Convertible. Electronic everything. Luxury this and that.

Some things exist for a good time, not a long time. We're the lucky few.

[Policy Limits]

Even though it has a manual transmission there's really a lot of modern features in the car.

[SharpMan]

Even though it has a manual transmission there's really a lot of modern features in the car.

I believe it was a total communications and marketing disaster. The Gen V is a modern car. Multi-mode stability and tractions control, variable valve timing, largely carbon body, etc...etc... The problem was that it looked too much like a Gen II GTS and they did nothing to properly control the media message around the car (ie continued nonsense about it being a widowmaker) and did next to nothing to market it. Lastly, selling a $120,000+ car out of Dodge dealerships is an almost impossible task. I bought my 2017 ACR-E because of what it is but you have to be a pretty die hard car guy to put up with how shit most Dodge dealerships are. For the same money I could have (and have) bought a GT3 and any new Porsche store is not only nicer than any Dodge dealer with more professional service it's also nicer than hanging out at my house! For most people buying cars in this price range that matters.

That's also a reflection of the fact that for most Dodge management's KPIs the Viper is not only irrelevant but a distraction. I mean 300 cars a year vs the million or more Rams and vans...why waste your time. Especially sad considering how passionate Gilles and so many people at Dodge were about the car and the pride with which it was built.

[Policy Limits]

Facts. They sorta knew the dealerships were crap so they wanted to have "SRT" dealers which ended up meaning they paid 25k for a title with few Viper techs in the country. Try finding one now. Even when I was able to find a Dodge dealer willing to touch my car for warranty work, a difficult task, I always hated bringing it there. You're right about the price point. It puts you smack in the Lotus, Maserati, Porsche category. and that's just new models and dont take into account preowned exotic market. I doubt gen 6 will ever debut.

[SharpMan]

Facts. They sorta knew the dealerships were crap so they wanted to have "SRT" dealers which ended up meaning they paid 25k for a title with few Viper techs in the country. Try finding one now. Even when I was able to find a Dodge dealer willing to touch my car for warranty work, a difficult task, I always hated bringing it there. You're right about the price point. It puts you smack in the Lotus, Maserati, Porsche category. and that's just new models and dont take into account preowned exotic market. I doubt gen 6 will ever debut.

My ACR-E was $192,000 CAD which is knocking on McLarent money and it wasn't even a 1-of-1!

I agree with you. There will not be a Gen 6. Honestly, it would be a stupid move. It just isn't a fit for their brand / product / corporate makeup and strategy.

[ViperJon]

The dealership experience is the single worst aspect of owning a Gen V Viper under warranty. Yes...there are some good ones sprinkled around the country but few and far between. There are none in the entire northeast to my knowledge.

[ACRSNK]

Facts. They sorta knew the dealerships were crap so they wanted to have "SRT" dealers which ended up meaning they paid 25k for a title with few Viper techs in the country. Try finding one now. Even when I was able to find a Dodge dealer willing to touch my car for warranty work, a difficult task, I always hated bringing it there. You're right about the price point. It puts you smack in the Lotus, Maserati, Porsche category. and that's just new models and dont take into account preowned exotic market. I doubt gen 6 will ever debut.

Which Dodge dealer did you use for warranty work

[Policy Limits]

Thank God none for the ACR. But my GTS had more recalls than that schwartzeneger movie and at that time I used Herb chambers in Danvers MA, which is close to NH and I live in RI, lol.

[SharpMan]

But my GTS had more recalls than that schwartzeneger movie...

LOL

[Scott_in_fl]

Back to exclusivity, Aventadors still bring an awesome presence, but Huracans are everywhere in South Florida.

Ferraris are also everywhere, so it would need to be something really unique to pop the exclusivity meter. Maybe a Pista, an F8 Tributo for the first few months, but nothing else short of LaF, F40, etc.

The new FGT for sure checks all the boxes for exclusivity and drool factor. A Mac Senna for sure. 720's are starting to become somewhat common believe it or not, but I still really dig them. A 675LT is cool, but the rest (570S, 650S, MP412C) are far less interesting.

Given all of that, what we continue to see is more and more new mass produced vehicles coming from "exclusive" brands like Ferrari, Lamborghini, Mac, etc. -- which makes them less exclusive because they are moving down market in an effort to ramp up production/sales volumes. Thus, it is not like when we were little when we caught a glimpse of a Countach going by, or a Testarossa or even a 388GTB. Those were the days when anything produced by those brands were exclusive.

These days, I find far more interest in the really cool cars that are no longer in production as opposed to any of the new mass-stamped widgets from Anybrand MFG.

And, of course, I still think it is tough to beat this:

41426

[IndyRon]

I actually agree with Scott, except minus all the vinyl on an otherwise awesome ACR.

[Bryan Savage]

I actually agree with Scott, except minus all the vinyl on an otherwise awesome ACR.

It would look better with Porsche GT2RS White Gold GTD1s. :t0152:

[ACR Steve]

Almost every manual sports car has gone up in value (shows demand) not sure 8 speed auto would have been the way to go.

To me just the PR on how friendly the car became should have been the way to go . So many people are still spooked at the old handling connotations

[Scott_in_fl]

I actually agree with Scott, except minus all the vinyl on an otherwise awesome ACR.

Ha, you should see the printed full wraps that are all the rage these days.


It would look better with Porsche GT2RS White Gold GTD1s. :t0152:

LOL, yes, those wheels were awesome. I'll likely grab another set soon and try to go darker color. I've also been eyeing the BC Forged EH308. I think the car needs a busy wheel, and I have to imagine that BC could cut this for 6 lugs.

41435


Almost every manual sports car has gone up in value (shows demand) not sure 8 speed auto would have been the way to go.

To me just the PR on how friendly the car became should have been the way to go . So many people are still spooked at the old handling connotations

^^^ This is right on, imo. FCA did not properly educate the public about the quality of the car, its refinement, or the comfort/ease of driving. When I saw the Gen V in person for the first time, I was blown away by the difference between it and my Gen III. Everything about it felt sooo much nicer, better built, and just much better executed.

That message never went out, because I never received it. And if I never received it (a car guy), then nobody else did either.

I had no idea how nice the car was until I just happened to stumble upon one sitting on a showroom floor, roped off, while I was looking at other vehicles for my in-laws. That is pretty pathetic.

And how important was that happenchance meeting? Very. It was at that point that I knew I had to sell my recently purchased Z06 and get back into a Viper.

[Bruce H.]

I don't seem to be afflicted with the need to have my cars turn other people's heads, just my own. Perhaps that's because I don't go to C & Cs or live in an area where a lot of people drive or show off the latest hardware. The analogue driving experience trumps all to some of us and in this regard the Viper was and still is a brilliant standout, with the latest flashy stuff moving in the wrong direction. And ever-increasing hp doesn't make them better...just the shiniest object for a short time before being replaced in the minds of those with that kind of a limited focus.

It may be a fact that the Gen V was a relative unknown to many, but unless you were a supposed car enthusiast living in the middle of a turnip patch without access to the internet or car magazines you had to have seen something of the Gen V. Well known race car drivers, IMSA racing wins, Motor Trend testing with Randy Pobst and numerous related articles, TA Production Car Record at one of the two tracks that many high performance car buyers reference when researching these kind of cars, articles in other auto magazines, car forums like corvetteforums.com that went crazy because of the Viper taking back the record, and then repeating it all after the ACR came out. But either way I wasn't concern with who knew about the car, and still don't.

Cars like the Viper often times take a while to be more broadly discovered by the enthusiast masses, and often times after they are out of production. That discovery pushes values up and suddenly it becomes a collectible car to have, not because it is the latest flashy object, but because of the incredible car that it is, and how it becomes more of a standout compared to the latest offerings. The Viper is the anti-Ferrari, the anti-Lambo and McLaren, and that is more and more becoming a good thing...and more and more exclusive than those cars.

Bruce

[SharpMan]

Interesting the conversation about the look of the car, the attention that it may or may not elicit and those aspects vis-a-vis other sports and super cars.

While I love the way my ACR looks it's definitely the way it drives that I love most. It's entirely unique as a road car. Nothing is as direct and raw. Interestingly it becomes more fluid and comfortable on the track at speed...the opposite of most cars and many performance cars.

[Scott_in_fl]

Ask people why they love cars and what they enjoy doing with them, and you'll get many, many different responses. Some love to restore them, some love to mod or customize them, some love to race them, some like to go to car shows, etc. Frankly, I love everything and anything about cars because I enjoy all of it. My former life as a motorcycle racer had me zipping around race tracks all over the place, so I completely understand the satisfaction that comes from chasing that perfect lap at Barber, Road Atlanta, Laguna, etc. I've been there, done that, it was awesome.

But I also have a creative side that loves to mess around with things trying to improve them both mechanically and aesthetically. I've always done that and, with my bikes, I built quite a reputation for having the baddest ass machines around. Everyone would always ask me to call them when I was ready to sell because they knew everything was always done as well and as thoroughly as possible. Was it showing off? Was it to get attention? No. That's just my own personal quest to take a canvas and see what I can do with it.

If attention was the goal, I would have an Aventador. That is absolutely the best option on the planet short of an LaF, for someone seeking eyeballs. The problem is that I could not work on the car without a ton of special tools and would not enjoy driving the car without a manual. Plus, I enjoy machines that work better the more they are muscled and man-handled. The harder you drive a Viper, the more rewarding it gets. It drives well at the limit, slides predictably, and is telepathic with what it is doing. I've not driven an Aventador at that level, but I have to imagine that it's not quite the same. So, the Viper is perfect for me. It sounds like it may be perfect for you as well. Cheers!

[ACRSNK]

Agree Viper is perfect 😝

[SharpMan]

Ask people why they love cars and what they enjoy doing with them, and you'll get many, many different responses. Some love to restore them, some love to mod or customize them, some love to race them, some like to go to car shows, etc. Frankly, I love everything and anything about cars because I enjoy all of it. My former life as a motorcycle racer had me zipping around race tracks all over the place, so I completely understand the satisfaction that comes from chasing that perfect lap at Barber, Road Atlanta, Laguna, etc. I've been there, done that, it was awesome.

But I also have a creative side that loves to mess around with things trying to improve them both mechanically and aesthetically. I've always done that and, with my bikes, I built quite a reputation for having the baddest ass machines around. Everyone would always ask me to call them when I was ready to sell because they knew everything was always done as well and as thoroughly as possible. Was it showing off? Was it to get attention? No. That's just my own personal quest to take a canvas and see what I can do with it.

If attention was the goal, I would have an Aventador. That is absolutely the best option on the planet short of an LaF, for someone seeking eyeballs. The problem is that I could not work on the car without a ton of special tools and would not enjoy driving the car without a manual. Plus, I enjoy machines that work better the more they are muscled and man-handled. The harder you drive a Viper, the more rewarding it gets. It drives well at the limit, slides predictably, and is telepathic with what it is doing. I've not driven an Aventador at that level, but I have to imagine that it's not quite the same. So, the Viper is perfect for me. It sounds like it may be perfect for you as well. Cheers!

Good point. I very much support that people should enjoy cars, or whatever, however they choose!

[ACRSNK]

Ha, you should see the printed full wraps that are all the rage these days.



LOL, yes, those wheels were awesome. I'll likely grab another set soon and try to go darker color. I've also been eyeing the BC Forged EH308. I think the car needs a busy wheel, and I have to imagine that BC could cut this for 6 lugs.

41435



^^^ This is right on, imo. FCA did not properly educate the public about the quality of the car, its refinement, or the comfort/ease of driving. When I saw the Gen V in person for the first time, I was blown away by the difference between it and my Gen III. Everything about it felt sooo much nicer, better built, and just much better executed.

That message never went out, because I never received it. And if I never received it (a car guy), then nobody else did either.

I had no idea how nice the car was until I just happened to stumble upon one sitting on a showroom floor, roped off, while I was looking at other vehicles for my in-laws. That is pretty pathetic.

And how important was that happenchance meeting? Very. It was at that point that I knew I had to sell my recently purchased Z06 and get back into a Viper.

That wheel is sick!!!!