Custom S/S headers for my Gen 4

[Revolution]

So after doing more and more thinking on what changes were going to do on the head. I took a look at my current exhaust header combo M&M headers and my own custom 3" exhaust. I think I'm going to jump into building a custom set of headers for my car in hopes of getting the most out of the car. Pulled the old headers out and I think there is a lot of room for improvement. I've fabricated a lot of exhaust systems and headers just never for the Viper so ill try to document it as well as I can :)

[FLATOUT]

What's your current combo making now?

[Revolution]

Mph 133Mph at the track consistently.

[FLATOUT]

Mph 133Mph at the track consistently.

Solid, what has it put down SAE. Feel free to PM me some details ;)

[IndyRon]

Awesome, look forward to future posts outlining progress.

[Revolution]

Solid, what has it put down SAE. Feel free to PM me some details ;)

I have never dyno'd the car I do 60-130Mph runs and track I have never been a big fan of the dunk but I will dyno the car with my new setup, then after I add my new heads I'm working on. But I will also run it at the track for real world differences!

[FLATOUT]

I have never dyno'd the car I do 60-130Mph runs and track I have never been a big fan of the dunk but I will dyno the car with my new setup, then after I add my new heads I'm working on. But I will also run it at the track for real world differences!

Understood what's it gone 60-130?

[Revolution]

I have a high HP Talon race/Street car that everyone said you have to dyno to tune it. I street tuned the car and could predict the mph with in 1-2 Mph every time I made a change. That is on a 2.0l 1000+whp car. If you know an accurate vehicle weight and no a distance or say time between 60-130 this seems the most accurate way to measure changes in power.

[FLATOUT]

I have a high HP Talon race/Street car that everyone said you have to dyno to tune it. I street tuned the car and could predict the mph with in 1-2 Mph every time I made a change. That is on a 2.0l 1000+whp car. If you know an accurate vehicle weight and no a distance or say time between 60-130 this seems the most accurate way to measure changes in power.

Except for wildy changing DA? Do you use a correction factor when dealing with different weather conditions?

[Revolution]

I log every pass from Da to temp and humidity and all changes on car such as tire pressures etc.

[IndyRon]

I have a high HP Talon race/Street car that everyone said you have to dyno to tune it. I street tuned the car and could predict the mph with in 1-2 Mph every time I made a change. That is on a 2.0l 1000+whp car. If you know an accurate vehicle weight and no a distance or say time between 60-130 this seems the most accurate way to measure changes in power.

Talk about leaning on a motor. 1000whp on a 2.0L......that's crazy. Maybe that means we should be making 4000whp on 8.4L! :web_driver:

[Revolution]

Talk about leaning on a motor. 1000whp on a 2.0L......that's crazy. Maybe that means we should be making 4000whp on 8.4L! :web_driver:

Haha Ron that was the old setup hoping for 1200whp on E85 this time :)

[FLATOUT]

Haha Ron that was the old setup hoping for 1200whp on E85 this time :)

You coming down to TX2K? I'll be out there this week.

[Revolution]

You coming down to TX2K? I'll be out there this week.

I wish the Talon is still apart after the 25.4 chassis and complete rebuild :( hoping to have it down there for next year :)

[Revolution]

Think after taking a look at the merge quality on my old headers etc there should be some good room for improvements!

[FLATOUT]

Think after taking a look at the merge quality on my old headers etc there should be some good room for improvements!

You could always add a velocity spike or "pickle".

[Revolution]

You could always add a velocity spike or "pickle".

I will and I'm going to use parallel merge collectors not formed collectors you get a much better flow and less reversion. There is always a reason why some parts cost more then others! A lot of your performance of a header is in the collector and I don't plan to skip on this at all. My opinion is if your going to do it do it once and do it right! I'm also going to spend more time to get equal length which I don't see a lot of headers using!

[ACRucrazy]

Just say no to pickle.

http://www.dizzlexic.com/trolls/dancing-pickle-like-dancing-banana-large-color-animated.gif

[FLATOUT]

That's the new nickname for your sled, "The Dancing Pickle". LMAO :D



Just say no to pickle.

http://www.dizzlexic.com/trolls/dancing-pickle-like-dancing-banana-large-color-animated.gif

[Revolution]

Lmfao :)

[ACRucrazy]

That's the new nickname for your sled, "The Dancing Pickle". LMAO :D

http://www.welovemetal.com/newsite/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/10.gif

[FLATOUT]

LOL it's not a bad nickname actually. And there he goes ladies and gentlmen the Dancing Pickle with another win!



http://www.welovemetal.com/newsite/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/10.gif

[Revolution]

Here are a couple of Pics I took of the build so far still waiting on my material to come in from various suppliers. Let me say one thing that material alone is a huge cost phone Burns or somewhere and ask for a quality S/S 5 into 1 Merge collector and expect to pay over $1000 just for a set of high flow merge collectors.

http://talongt66.4t.com/Viper%20Header/M%26M%20headers.jpg

Looks like a lot of areas to pick up some improvement

http://talongt66.4t.com/Viper%20Header/M%26M2.jpg

Inside view of one of the formed merge collectors
http://talongt66.4t.com/Viper%20Header/M%26M3.jpg

Inside view of one of the formed merge collectors other angle
http://talongt66.4t.com/Viper%20Header/M%26M4.jpg

[Revolution]

Pics of a manifold I just build for my other car recently.

http://talongt66.4t.com/Viper%20Header/man1.jpg

http://talongt66.4t.com/Viper%20Header/man3.jpg

[Revolution]

So this is the start of building the fixtures for the Gen 4/5 headers.

transferring flange bolt pattern to Fixture
http://talongt66.4t.com/Viper%20Header/Viper%20Headers1.jpg

Dbl checking flange pattern with old headers
http://talongt66.4t.com/Viper%20Header/viper%20header2.jpg

[Revolution]

Talk about leaning on a motor. 1000whp on a 2.0L......that's crazy. Maybe that means we should be making 4000whp on 8.4L! :web_driver:

Cant find any new videos this is from 3 or 4 years ago, the car is a 2.0L and weighs 3250lbs no nitrous on E85 9.6@158Mph enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdobjNvHQC8

[IndyRon]

That's crazy! Sounds like it was spinning all 4 and bouncing off the rev limiter in 1st.

[Revolution]

That's crazy! Sounds like it was spinning all 4 and bouncing off the rev limiter in 1st.

No badly slipping clutch and a slow 1.9 60ft and only 106ph at the 1/8th but picked up another 53mph on the top end!

[Revolution]

Got a bunch of work done on the collectors this weekend and I'll post once I'm near a computer still finalizing my CnC'd header flange design and then the fun begins :)

[CERVEZA]

Can't wait to see !!!! Pics please

[Revolution]

Working on some new CnC'd Header Flanges for the Gen 4/5 application

http://talongt66.4t.com/Viper%20Header/Viperheaders5.jpg

[FLATOUT]

Going with a try Y design?

[Revolution]

Going with a try Y design?

No 5 into 1 with equal length long primary's with a step :)

[Revolution]

Doesn't look like the header flanges he posted not that there is a lot you can do different other then mine is CnC'd transitions from port to tubing :) I in no way have seen Toddy's header flange to copy it, and have the upmost respect for him and his work!

[FLATOUT]

There's really only one way to make a Viper header flange, and it's not really a proprietary thing. You can machine them differently or use different methods to cut them. I guess different materials could be used as well.

It's tough to patent headers as well as they have been being made for decades. All types of motors and configurations have been used so it kind of is what it is.

Andy

[Revolution]

There's really only one way to make a Viper header flange, and it's not really a proprietary thing. You can machine them differently or use different methods to cut them. I guess different materials could be used as well.

It's tough to patent headers as well as they have been being made for decades. All types of motors and configurations have been used so it kind of is what it is.

Andy

Exactly !!!!

[Revolution]

Some pics while getting the collectors finished off!

http://talongt66.4t.com/Viper%20Header/Viperheaders2.jpg

[Steve M]

Burns makes some really nice stuff...I'm curious to see how this turns out.

[Revolution]

Burns makes some really nice stuff...I'm curious to see how this turns out.

These are similar design as most other high end collectors. They are parallel welded merge collectors with internal blending and a very smooth transition! Only way a Burns might make you faster is your wallet might weigh a lot less after buying them haha!

[Steve M]

Are you stepping 1-7/8" down to 1-3/4"?

[Revolution]

Are you stepping 1-7/8" down to 1-3/4"?

No you never step down you step up! I'll be trying multiple combos!

[Steve M]

No you never step down you step up! I'll be trying multiple combos!

Brain fart...should be interesting.

[IndyRon]

Brain fart...should be interesting.

I asked BBG about doing a stepped 1 3/4" to 1 7/8" header a while back when Toddy was kicking off the production run of the latest header design. I'm interested in seeing your results!

[Revolution]

Thanks Ron I have several things I will try and hopefully keep the low range and add to the top end :)

[FLATOUT]

Thanks Ron I have several things I will try and hopefully keep the low range and add to the top end :)

Find that spot inbetween my two dyno's.

[Revolution]

Find that spot inbetween my two dyno's.

exactly!!!!

[Revolution]

Made some huge progress today I think these headers flanges turned out way better then even my wildest expectations!

Starting with a big chunk of 304 :)
http://talongt66.4t.com/Viper%20Header/Gen4flange4.jpg

Doing work!
http://talongt66.4t.com/Viper%20Header/Gen4flange3.jpg

Bling!
http://talongt66.4t.com/Viper%20Header/Gen4flange2.jpg

[Revolution]

A couple more pics!

http://talongt66.4t.com/Viper%20Header/Gen4flange1.jpg

[Steve M]

Next question: is this just something you are doing as a one off for your car only, or would you consider building more? Either way, it's really cool to see the progress.

[Revolution]

Give me a PM Steve the flanges are readily available if anyone is interested they are made and have a step for the tubing to slide into which makes fabrication a lot easier and also helps with proper flow!

[ACRucrazy]

Very cool!

[Revolution]

Very cool!

Thanks man glad you guys like the progress so far, wait till you see the work on the heads :)

[ACRucrazy]

Where did you buy the heads BTW?

[Revolution]

Where did you buy the heads BTW?

privately

[Revolution]

Hoping to get a chance to work on these this weekend :)

[Revolution]

Finally got a chance to work on this again over the weekend and am happy to say the Drivers side is built and test fit and the passenger side is built awaiting test fitment when I get back in town :)

[Revolution]

Quick pic just pulled them out of the fixture to test fit before final welding!

http://talongt66.4t.com/Viper%20Header/Viperheader10.jpg

[FLATOUT]

Good Lawd!

[Revolution]

Good Lawd!

Hoping that's a good, "Good Lawd" :) A fellow Viper enthusiast has nicked named them the Gatling guns! Haha

[Revolution]

To answer some PM's these are a stepped header design long primary's as you can probably tell from the pic. I will be trying a few combos to see which is the best overall!

[FLATOUT]

Yes they look bad ass! Great work!

[Revolution]

Yes they look bad ass! Great work!

Thanks I will polish them just in a rush to get a picture since I was leaving out of town! Then off to the ceramic coaters!

[IndyRon]

I don't see the step. Where is it in pic?

[Revolution]

I don't see the step. Where is it in pic?

Its there Ron sent you a PM :) I'm going to try a few variations but I think from my research and some testing we have done on similar square bore/stroke motors this should get me real close :)

[PaulP]

Holy shit!!! looking good man !

[Revolution]

Holy shit!!! looking good man !

Thanks Paul trying a lot of work and time so far into this project, glad everyone is liking the results so far!

[Steve M]

Thanks Paul trying a lot of work and time so far into this project, glad everyone is liking the results so far!

It shows.

Quick question: most header designs I've seen incorporate some sort of flange somewhere in the middle of the header, which I can only assume is for ease of installation (I wouldn't know...never installed a set of headers in a Viper). Are you going to do something similar, or will you be able to snake these into place?

[Revolution]

It shows.

Quick question: most header designs I've seen incorporate some sort of flange somewhere in the middle of the header, which I can only assume is for ease of installation (I wouldn't know...never installed a set of headers in a Viper). Are you going to do something similar, or will you be able to snake these into place?

There are double slip fit joints same as what Burns uses instead of a large flange that tends to leak!

[Steve M]

There are double slip fit joints same as what Burns uses instead of a large flange that tends to leak!

I never really understood how those worked until I poked around on Burns' website...very cool!

[Revolution]

Yeah as the inside flanges heats up more compared to the two outer flanges this creates a very tight seal!

[Revolution]

Not much extra room to play around with
http://talongt66.4t.com/Viper%20Header/testfit.jpg

[SNKEBIT]

The slip fit leaks more than the flat flange. Have tried to fix many slip fit headers.
Nice work btw!

[Revolution]

I've neve had a problem with any dbl slip fits and lots of problems with flanges. So each thee own I guess :)

[Steve M]

The slip fit leaks more than the flat flange. Have tried to fix many slip fit headers.
Nice work btw!

Single slip or double slip? I've also had issues, but they were single slip fit.

[Revolution]

I usually only use singles on race cars and dbl on street cars !

[SNKEBIT]

I would have to say single, what is double slip?

[Revolution]

I would have to say single, what is double slip?

Look up on Burns or other highend exhaust suppliers websites I will post pics when I get a chance! So I will take your statement that they leak more for whats I suppose!

[Revolution]

Taken from Burns webpage!

Due to high exhaust gas pressure, many inexperienced fabricators choose to weld collectors directly to primary tubes to prevent leaks. This is not a good practice as thermal expansion will cause thermal stresses, leading to cracking tubes. A better solution is to use Burns double slip collectors (Figure 3 - Burns Double Slip Collectors). The double slip eliminates the need to weld the collector since it minimizes leakage around the slip joint. As the exhaust header heats up, the outer sleeve actually tightens around the collector to seal in exhaust gases, yet is compliant enough to relieve thermal stress.

[Revolution]

Only pic I have with me as I'm out of town currently!

Basically this is the female end of the dbl slips I made, the male end of the other tube is sandwiched in between the two layes of tubing you see there! This not only dbls the surface area but as the inner of the 3 layers well get hotter then the outter layers there for expanding more and pushing tighter and tighter to the outer layers creating an even better seal.
http://talongt66.4t.com/Viper%20Header/dblslip.jpg

[Revolution]

Some pics of welding as the headers are in for coating as we speak :)

http://talongt66.4t.com/Viper%20Header/header%20welds.jpg

Couple of pics of the test fitting before coating!

http://talongt66.4t.com/Viper%20Header/collectorincar.jpg

http://talongt66.4t.com/Viper%20Header/collectorincar2.jpg

http://talongt66.4t.com/Viper%20Header/headerincar2.jpg

http://talongt66.4t.com/Viper%20Header/headersincar.jpg

[Revolution]

Hopefully things work out and I get a chance to get these things installed and build the exhaust in the next week or so

http://talongt66.4t.com/Viper%20Header/coatedheaders1.jpg

[FLATOUT]

Very, very nice!

[Revolution]

Thanks I appreciate the feedback!

[DreadLox]

Dude....

4899

Please post a video ASAP.... Or at least a sound clip..... I can't take it anymore lol

[IndyRon]

Looking good! I will say though, they are way to nice to paint/coat black. Wish you would have went with sterling finish. Looking forward to the results. I should have mine running within a week then to the dyno and track.

[Revolution]

This isn't my first rodeo and I know what that finish ends up looking like on a will driven car that's why I went with a two stage black ceramic coating :)

[IndyRon]

This isn't my first rodeo and I know what that finish ends up looking like on a will driven car that's why I went with a two stage black ceramic coating :)

I'm sure its not. No doubt that the black ceramic is a good functional choice, just doesn't pop like the ceramic silver...even if the silver does dull a bit after running the car. I get turned off by black I think only because I always saw cheap spray painted JC whitney headers that cost $199 done in black on 3rd gen Camaros...

I'm really curious what effect that stepped design is going to have on the low end and midrange of the powerband. What are you going to do for the rest of the exhaust?

[Revolution]

Black stays nice any oil or dirt on the chrome ceramic stains it I only run it on my street/race car cause it only sees limited street duties! Light weight custom v band'd 3 1/2" for the rest Ron.

[Revolution]

So took the car out and now I'm throwing the same codes guys with smooth tubes are, even though I drove the car all last year with smooth tubes? P0098, p0100, P010A etc any suggestions?

[Revolution]

Found one coil connector not fully plugged in! Douh

[IndyRon]

Found one coil connector not fully plugged in! Douh

If you are still having intermittent codes related to ignition/misfire, make sure all your plug boots are solid without any loose or broken connectors inside. I had that problem, one was damaged from removal and I didn't know it until reinstallation.

[Revolution]

Nope all is good Ron had one coil attached but wasn't all the way clicked in!

[Revolution]

Update cars running real strong took it in for an alignment at the local Dodge dealership all the tech's came over and commented it was the best sounding Viper they have ever heard :)

[Revolution]

I have to say new light weigh exhaust sounds real nice and deep will post sound clips this weekend :)

[IndyRon]

Awesome. Looking forward to your results as well. I've been trying to get mine to the track but it has rained here the last 3 weeks on Wednesday TNT.

[Whitemamba]

Hopefully things work out and I get a chance to get these things installed and build the exhaust in the next week or so

http://talongt66.4t.com/Viper%20Header/coatedheaders1.jpg

Damn!!! That pic should be framed and put on a wall. Talk about a work of art!

[Steve M]

Any updates on this project?

[Revolution]

Yes cars is running strong and love the sound

[Murpowa]

Sound clips!

[Redx]

It's loud! But mean sounding..

[Revolution]

I will try to get some sound clips up soon been real busy this year and havent hardly touched the car :(

[FLATOUT]

Get that thing on the dyno or to the track sucka! :D

[Revolution]

Just working on getting the tune sorted out I might run it with the Mopar PCM just to get a equal comparison anyway :)

[Revolution]

Ill get pics fixed and pics of my new alluminum racing exhaust posted up :)

[Revolution]

Sorry haven't been on here for awhile all is good everything is working awesome and car sounds badass !

[Camfab]

I never look at the Gen III-IV forums, just saw this. I'd love to see the pics, for some reason they don't show up on my computer!! My Gen II has stepped headers with Burns slip fitted merge collectors. The flanges are machined from 3/4" thick stainless similar in design to a pipe flange. Can't wait to see your design.