BJ sale

[nitromilt]

Anyone know how the vipers sold on the Barrett Jackson sale??

[Viperenvy]

https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Archive/Event/Docket/LasVegas-2019/Collector-Cars/edbdb238-887a-4f8b-abb1-fdbe8588e356/10-03-2019/10-05-2019

[gfviperman]

Prices Include Buyers Premium ...

2017 ACR
395 miles
$176,000

2017 GTC
20 miles
$110,000

2013
10, 000 miles
$84,700

[Martin]

Not horrible prices - good to see the cars are holding value for the most part. As soon as prices drop, I'm going to pick up another ACR-E that I'm not afraid to drive it like it was meant to be driven...

[ViperJon]

As soon as prices drop, I'm going to pick up another ACR-E that I'm not afraid to drive it like it was meant to be driven...

When is that going to be exactly, I'm curious. Prices are going to drop soon?

[ViperGeorge]

It is really the very low/zero mile cars that are holding their value the best. Cars with under 500 miles or so. A couple of years ago BJ in Scottsdale sold an ACR/TA for like +$260,000. It had something like 300 miles on it. My ACR/TA has 20,000 on it and I'm guessing it isn't worth $260,000 :(

[Viperenvy]

With rare exceptions, in 2027 the prices will be roughly the same. Used the 100 GT2s as an example.

Search the forums and you will find these exact same discussions starting in 2000. All kinds of wild claims about values. A 400 mile, never titled GT2 that was bought new for about $115ish netted the seller about $105,000 at auction 20 years later.

Whether you buy it to drive the crap out of it, drive it on the weekends, drive it to shows, sit in your garage and watch it, or bubble wrap it, just enjoy it because its your money. Just please, don't buy it for the hope of increased value.......however, it is your money :)

[Racingswh]

Prices in general seemed soft to me. The car that seemed to disappoint the most was the Gulf colors Ford GT. I say that just because a good friend has one and valuation is something we look at once in awhile. He happens to use his as a workbench and we just kind of laugh about it but interesting to see a car that used to be selling in the high 400s go for less than 300.

[RedTanRT/10]

When is that going to be exactly, I'm curious. Prices are going to drop soon?

Longer that I ever thought Jon!!

Sub 1,000 mile cars haven't depreciated. Only ones below MSRP have at least 5k miles of more.

My theory is that at the $140-$160 price point you have original buyers more affluent (then the $90-$100k G4 ACR's) and can wait to find the right buyer and not worry about liquidity.

[Martin]

I'm guessing that if the recession hits as everyone seems to think it will, prices will come down a bit. We're definitely due for a recession, but who knows when that will happen. If it does, and I've still got a job, it'll be a good time to pick up some things and get some stuff done around the house. Right now, with things still booming, I'm having a heck of a time getting anything done around the house at a reasonable price. Definitely a big change from about ten years ago.

[Scott_in_fl]

With rare exceptions, in 2027 the prices will be roughly the same. Used the 100 GT2s as an example.

Search the forums and you will find these exact same discussions starting in 2000. All kinds of wild claims about values. A 400 mile, never titled GT2 that was bought new for about $115ish netted the seller about $105,000 at auction 20 years later...

Excellent point about looking back at what has happened as the best indicator for the future. And, the GT2 is a decent car to use for many reasons. However, keep in mind that there was also a GT2RS and those cars originally sold for $250k and are now $400k-$700k for low mile examples. So, as always, it comes down to production volume and demand/desirability. There were 500 997 GT2RS's and the pool of Pcar enthusiasts is vast. Thus, the supply/demand disparity is very high = high aftermarket pricing now and in the future.


Prices in general seemed soft to me. The car that seemed to disappoint the most was the Gulf colors Ford GT. I say that just because a good friend has one and valuation is something we look at once in awhile. He happens to use his as a workbench and we just kind of laugh about it but interesting to see a car that used to be selling in the high 400s go for less than 300.

The Ford GT in gulf colors always seemed a bit crazy at $400k -- especially when most other colors could be had at $250k-$300k. Thus, I think that rubber band was stretched too far, just like 991 GT2RS was when prices were at $550k+.

There is always going to be an initial rush, followed up with disinterested sellers throwing big numbers out there to see if anyone bites (and some will), but then followed with some pullback. With '05/'06 FGT, prices are stable at the $250k-$300k area and likely to only move higher over time. Because there are so few with low miles (relatively speaking), they will all rise together over time even if there are spurts when certain colors rocket higher temporarily (only to snap back to the others at some point).

With Viper ACR, we still have very low supply, but also a smaller pool of enthusiasts. However, I see that pool growing over time, even if slowly, because the car is so unique in a growing landscape of ACME widgets, is still a favorite among the young and upcoming Gran Turismo crowd, and has the performance credentials to back up its neck-snapping looks. With the NA V10, the manual shift, yada, yada, I've always believed you have a keeper. And, perhaps more telling, is that lately I'm hearing more and more people comment upon learning about the car that "you're never selling that, right?" So, are prices dropping soon? Meh, maybe over the short term you see some up and down, but the long term will be more than fine.

[Scott_in_fl]

I'm guessing that if the recession hits as everyone seems to think it will, prices will come down a bit. We're definitely due for a recession, but who knows when that will happen. If it does, and I've still got a job, it'll be a good time to pick up some things and get some stuff done around the house. Right now, with things still booming, I'm having a heck of a time getting anything done around the house at a reasonable price. Definitely a big change from about ten years ago.

Martin, we've been hearing that for almost 8 years now. The reality is that there is simply too much money in the global economy and it all wants to be right here in the good 'ole USA. They are banging down doors trying to find ways to get their money into this country. Are you expecting that to stop?

[RedTanRT/10]

Excellent point about looking back at what has happened as the best indicator for the future. And, the GT2 is a decent car to use for many reasons. However, keep in mind that there was also a GT2RS and those cars originally sold for $250k and are now $400k-$700k for low mile examples. So, as always, it comes down to production volume and demand/desirability. There were 500 997 GT2RS's and the pool of Pcar enthusiasts is vast. Thus, the supply/demand disparity is very high = high aftermarket pricing now and in the future.

Hey Scott, he's referring to a VIPER, a '98 Viper GTSR. Perhaps before your time?????

Pinnacle Viper that is usually the #1 collector viper for those that have been around some time. That car commemorated Viper wins at LeMans. Do do a search.

[ViperJon]

Excellent point about looking back at what has happened as the best indicator for the future. And, the GT2 is a decent car to use for many reasons. However, keep in mind that there was also a GT2RS and those cars originally sold for $250k and are now $400k-$700k for low mile examples. So, as always, it comes down to production volume and demand/desirability. There were 500 997 GT2RS's and the pool of Pcar enthusiasts is vast. Thus, the supply/demand disparity is very high = high aftermarket pricing now and in the future. .

WTF are you talking about noob....wrong car.

[Martin]

Martin, we've been hearing that for almost 8 years now. The reality is that there is simply too much money in the global economy and it all wants to be right here in the good 'ole USA. They are banging down doors trying to find ways to get their money into this country. Are you expecting that to stop?

I hoping we don't see a recession, but things around the world are such a tinderbox these days that any screw up could set off a chain reaction that messes with our economy. It's true that things have been expected to go south for a long time, and we're lucky that they haven't. But, I'm starting to be a lot more cautious than I was just a few years ago. This mess with China trade, North Korea saber rattling, Iran making noise, attacks on the Saudis, Brexit looming, the European economy being shaky at best, and a host of other smaller things that we're not paying much attention to in the media (like Hong Kong and French unrest). If we do have a recession, it probably won't be a severe one, but it would be healthy for the economy long-term. I'm the type that tends to buy things on dips, and every previous recession led to dips in high-dollar "luxury" items like sports cars.

[Racingswh]

Overall it just felt less vibrant to me. Seemed like a lot of empty seats as they panned across the crowd. I know where I'm going to buy a Bentley when I get one. 🤣. I don't know much about their prices but they seemed reasonable at the auction.

When the 2017 black and blue Viper ran I was happy to see the number it did end up doing. I would not have been surprised if it had been even softer than that.

I guess we will see what happens in January at Barrett-Jackson. Might have been simply the buyers that were in attendance were not the right ones to get the bigger dollars for some of the cars?

[Ronin47]

Whether you buy it to drive the crap out of it, drive it on the weekends, drive it to shows, sit in your garage and watch it, or bubble wrap it, just enjoy it because its your money. Just please, don't buy it for the hope of increased value.......however, it is your money :)

Well said. YOLO.

[Scott_in_fl]

WTF are you talking about noob....wrong car.

Jon, definitely not a noob and you know that. I misunderstood the post as referring to the Pcar GT2 (is there really any other GT2 worth talking about?). Regardless, the point is even more pronounced -- production volume vs. desirability.

The '98 GTSR does not seem to get much love. You can ask yourself why and spend time trying to figure out the answer, or you can just accept it and move on. Frankly, I love the B/W '96's, but they don't move as much as I would have thought either. It seems that '90's era American sports cars are just not the most coveted possessions out there.

Maybe it's because they are generally considered to be lowest rung on the ladder compared to what ROW had on offer -- which, oh by the way, included many great Pcars (993 911's, think also Supra MkIV, Lambo Diablo, Ferrari F355, F40/F50). ROW was kicking our ass from every continent. The fact that the GTSR racer won races did not mean that its Dodge showroom counterpart could take on the best that ROW had to offer.

As you move into '05/'06 years of the FGT, American sports cars were reborn. The FGT woke everyone up and Corvette Racing followed shortly thereafter and began to kick everyone's ass. Euros continue to improve, Asian makes fall back.

In the 2010+ era, American cars begin to hit a full stride. Take Corvette -- the C7 was good, with a nice interior, but it still felt several notches below a well done Euro brand. The G5 Viper improved the breed significantly and closed the gap considerably tighter. The new C8 will follow and looks to be getting even closer. Euro makes hold steady, Asian makes continue to fall back.

The point is that it has taken a loooong time for American sports cars to regain their luster from the 50's and 60's. After the late '70's it was lights out for 30 years. But today, America is great again -- FGT, new FGT, C8, and yes, the Gen V ACR, are all considered to be world-class American sports cars.

Again, the market will ebb and flow. But American cars are once again worth buying and collecting. You heard it here first.

[GTS Dean]

I hoping we don't see a recession, but things around the world are such a tinderbox these days that any screw up could set off a chain reaction that messes with our economy. It's true that things have been expected to go south for a long time, and we're lucky that they haven't. But, I'm starting to be a lot more cautious than I was just a few years ago. This mess with China trade, North Korea saber rattling, Iran making noise, attacks on the Saudis, Brexit looming, the European economy being shaky at best, and a host of other smaller things that we're not paying much attention to in the media (like Hong Kong and French unrest). If we do have a recession, it probably won't be a severe one, but it would be healthy for the economy long-term. I'm the type that tends to buy things on dips, and every previous recession led to dips in high-dollar "luxury" items like sports cars.

I care relatively little what happens to the rest of the world as long as we effectively police our streets and borders, provide useful jobs and products for our own citizens, improve and maintain our infrastructure and purge the scourge of unbridled liberalism from our government. China can take a flying leap into the shitter.

[Scott_in_fl]

I hoping we don't see a recession, but things around the world are such a tinderbox these days that any screw up could set off a chain reaction that messes with our economy. It's true that things have been expected to go south for a long time, and we're lucky that they haven't. But, I'm starting to be a lot more cautious than I was just a few years ago. This mess with China trade, North Korea saber rattling, Iran making noise, attacks on the Saudis, Brexit looming, the European economy being shaky at best, and a host of other smaller things that we're not paying much attention to in the media (like Hong Kong and French unrest). If we do have a recession, it probably won't be a severe one, but it would be healthy for the economy long-term. I'm the type that tends to buy things on dips, and every previous recession led to dips in high-dollar "luxury" items like sports cars.

But it has always been that way. They say that world peace is at the highest levels it has ever been in modern history. So, while it seems everything is always about to blow up, keep that in mind. Every nation is more prosperous than it ever has been, and the trend seems to be continuing. Yes, there are dips, but overall the trend keeps moving ever higher. Have you ever seen this chart of shame? It is interesting to see all the times that folks thought the market was on a precipice. In fact, the same chart can be shown as far back as the stock market has existed.

40165


Overall it just felt less vibrant to me. Seemed like a lot of empty seats as they panned across the crowd. I know where I'm going to buy a Bentley when I get one. ��. I don't know much about their prices but they seemed reasonable at the auction.

When the 2017 black and blue Viper ran I was happy to see the number it did end up doing. I would not have been surprised if it had been even softer than that.

I guess we will see what happens in January at Barrett-Jackson. Might have been simply the buyers that were in attendance were not the right ones to get the bigger dollars for some of the cars?

The softness you are perceiving is widespread among assets right now. Home prices are leveling in many areas, maybe even contracting a bit. Has something to do with Martin's point about the perceived anxiety in the world (as reported by the talking heads), which is always high running into elections as the two parties love to show that the current regime is doing a poor job running the country. Let this pass and we'll get back to running along just fine. Unemployment is low, the younger generations are smarter than we were, and tech is multiplying daily (and we are on the leading edge of it).

[Kurt]

Hey Scott, he's referring to a VIPER, a '98 Viper GTSR. Perhaps before your time?????

Pinnacle Viper that is usually the #1 collector viper for those that have been around some time. That car commemorated Viper wins at LeMans. Do do a search.

For what it's worth, the '98 Viper GT2 did not commemorate a Le Mans win. The car was painted white with blue stripes to match the livery of the GTS-R that won the 1997 FIA GT2 Championship, Justin Bell's #52. GTS-R chassis #C6. Viper did not score a class win at Le Mans win until 1998, in the red/white/blue ORECA livery

[Viperenvy]

This thread...oh boy...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Viper_GTS-R

[gfviperman]

Las Vegas prices are generally not as high as Scottsdale prices ...

BUT, the ACR did well in LV ...

[RedTanRT/10]

For what it's worth, the '98 Viper GT2 did not commemorate a Le Mans win. The car was painted white with blue stripes to match the livery of the GTS-R that won the 1997 FIA GT2 Championship, Justin Bell's #52. GTS-R chassis #C6. Viper did not score a class win at Le Mans win until 1998, in the red/white/blue ORECA livery

Hey Kurt, thanks!!! A little fuzzy memory for me recalling 20 years back. I have one of the OEM stickers on my viper and knew if was the FIA champ but I thought they also won that year in LeMans too.

Did a quick search and found something I don't recall every hearing;

GT2 Champion Edition build commemorating the Viper GTS-R race cars. In order to meet FIA homologation requirements and to commemorate Viper winning the 1997 FIA GT2 class championship, 100 modified Viper GT2 Championship Edition street-legal cars were built.

[str5010]

Hey Kurt, thanks!!! A little fuzzy memory for me recalling 20 years back. I have one of the OEM stickers on my viper and knew if was the FIA champ but I thought they also won that year in LeMans too.

Did a quick search and found something I don't recall every hearing;

GT2 Champion Edition build commemorating the Viper GTS-R race cars. In order to meet FIA homologation requirements and to commemorate Viper winning the 1997 FIA GT2 class championship, 100 modified Viper GT2 Championship Edition street-legal cars were built.

Another common misconception, the GT2 package had nothing to do with homologation requirements. The car had already been racing for two years at that point at was first homologated in April 1996.

[Viperenvy]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Viper

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Viper_GTS-R

Tell me where the homoligization info came from please.

[RedTanRT/10]

Tell me where the homoligization info came from please.

As I wrote before, I found info on the GTSR I had never heard before. Link below, if its incorrect great, I don't have one for sale.

https://mcecars.com/vehicles/171/1998-dodge-viper-gts-r

[Fatboy 18]

I care relatively little what happens to the rest of the world as long as we effectively police our streets and borders, provide useful jobs and products for our own citizens, improve and maintain our infrastructure and purge the scourge of unbridled liberalism from our government. China can take a flying leap into the shitter.

:t1236:

[Gen5snake]

I care relatively little what happens to the rest of the world as long as we effectively police our streets and borders, provide useful jobs and products for our own citizens, improve and maintain our infrastructure and purge the scourge of unbridled liberalism from our government. China can take a flying leap into the shitter.


:t1236:

Yep...that just about sums it up for this guy too....especially purging the scourge of unbridled liberalism from our government part.

[ViperNC]

And this is how a thread about Viper sales at Barrett Jackson becomes a discussion about the world economy and politics. Here we go....:lol2:

For what it is worth, we have to pay attention to emerging economies around the world as the US economy is not in a bubble and can never be. My other more relevant comment to the thread is that a friend of mine works at a high end dealership here in town whereby their sales of supercars and ultra luxury cars in general have fallen off a cliff to the point he is considering a career move because he is working 70+ hours a week and hardly selling anything. As it relates to Viper prices, I think it is fair to say the future values will potentially take a hit albeit temporarily. For the low mileage garage queens their values will increase with time (as most things like that do) based upon availability and demand. Everything is cyclical.

[Old School]

I care relatively little what happens to the rest of the world as long as we effectively police our streets and borders, provide useful jobs and products for our own citizens, improve and maintain our infrastructure and purge the scourge of unbridled liberalism from our government. China can take a flying leap into the shitter.


:t1236:


Yep...that just about sums it up for this guy too....especially purging the scourge of unbridled liberalism from our government part.

+3.

[Scott_in_fl]

+3.

^^^ Agreement here as well. The only caveat is that many US companies are now too big to survive only on the US economy. Nationalism only works if you stay small. We need to trade with others if companies like Apple and every other blue chip are to survive.

[Viperenvy]

As I wrote before, I found info on the GTSR I had never heard before. Link below, if its incorrect great, I don't have one for sale.

https://mcecars.com/vehicles/171/1998-dodge-viper-gts-r

Thank you RedTanRT/10!

Amazing that a vehicle owner didn't even know or double check another's listing.

Here is another TNT GT2 that's been for sale since - at least - April of 2018 - and is #015 with 3,600 miles. There are two know TNT GT2s (#015 & #082)

https://www.restoreamusclecar.com/vehicles/578/1998-dodge-viper-gts-r

Thank you again for helping locate the source. The correct, detailed history of these 100 vehicles has been untold......

[ViperJon]

Wrong car to mod.

[Snakebit10]

I remember those King Snakes. I did not know they did that to a GTSR though.

The King Snake I remember was gray with white stripes. It had magazine coverage too. Sadly if memory serves it crashed. It was one of the fastest NA tuner cars back in the day along with Ligenfelter Vette. Loved those days....Id bet with proper tires that TNT'D GTSR above is an easy 10 sec car.

[No hemi]

LOO.. for a minute there I felt I was back at the "alley".....:p0257:

[BlknBlu]

I know of 3 Vipers from my neck of the woods going up for sale at BJ in Scottsdale.

92 with 333 miles
10 ACRX with 4 miles
10 ACR 133 with 18 miles.

Bruce

[RedTanRT/10]

Bruce, those 3 are all great Vipers! It will be interesting to see what kind of prices they bring.

[TheWessss]

I continue to use my ACR-E for exactly what it was built for, track dominance!!! Loving every second of it, just turned over 20,000 miles, even if it takes the value down, WHO CARES?? I can't put a dollar amount on all of those laps around world famous tracks that I get to drive at speed and put down numbers close to what cars/teams/pro drivers clock in. I'm a little slower but I don't push it anywhere near 100% like they do and I am just fine with that.

[Scott_in_fl]

Wow, some ultra low-mile cars in the 2010's.

The '92 first year car must be terrific and should be the most collectible. Less than 300 cars built that year, probably only a handful with such low miles. Replacing it would be very difficult.

The '10 ACR is low volume (also less than 300), but now you're into mid-gen cars which isn't terrific for collectability.

[ViperGeorge]

Wow, some ultra low-mile cars in the 2010's.

The '92 first year car must be terrific and should be the most collectible. Less than 300 cars built that year, probably only a handful with such low miles. Replacing it would be very difficult.

The '10 ACR is low volume (also less than 300), but now you're into mid-gen cars which isn't terrific for collectability.

The problem I have with the 92 is it is very primitive and not great for driving, might not have air, leaky top, side curtains, etc. For a museum ok, to own no thanks.

[commandomatt]

+3.


Wow, some ultra low-mile cars in the 2010's.

The '92 first year car must be terrific and should be the most collectible. Less than 300 cars built that year, probably only a handful with such low miles. Replacing it would be very difficult.

The '10 ACR is low volume (also less than 300), but now you're into mid-gen cars which isn't terrific for collectability.

While some mid production years may be worth less, the 2010 does represent the last of the non nanny Vipers and is also the Nurburgring record holder for many years. For many, the 2010 is a great year to own.....collect....or drive

[ViperJon]

I continue to use my ACR-E for exactly what it was built for, track dominance!!! Loving every second of it, just turned over 20,000 miles, even if it takes the value down, WHO CARES?? I can't put a dollar amount on all of those laps around world famous tracks that I get to drive at speed and put down numbers close to what cars/teams/pro drivers clock in. I'm a little slower but I don't push it anywhere near 100% like they do and I am just fine with that.

This is the type of post that should be shouted from the mountaintop....not only a guy enjoying his car but a Gen V that is getting driven hard and fast and no issues with it. All the doom and gloom posts on FB and elsewhere generally by non owners and those with a vested interest in "fixing" the problems (ahem.....C*lvo) you would think they are all blowing up driving down the the local cars and coffee.

[ViperNC]

I continue to use my ACR-E for exactly what it was built for, track dominance!!! Loving every second of it, just turned over 20,000 miles, even if it takes the value down, WHO CARES?? I can't put a dollar amount on all of those laps around world famous tracks that I get to drive at speed and put down numbers close to what cars/teams/pro drivers clock in. I'm a little slower but I don't push it anywhere near 100% like they do and I am just fine with that.

Best comment of the day and good for you.:drive::t1236: