Learned a lot today from Lou Belanger !

[Late Apex]

For a long time now I have seen numerous CEL post issues with the Gen 4 after header mods etc and until now has kept me from getting any headers or hi flow cats. But after a long and informative conversation with Lou about CEL issues and emission problems I did not want to to deal with, he explained that his headers and cats PROPERLY installed will not throw a CEL and will pass emissions WITHOUT having to install the Mopar PCM. He mentioned the PCM need for those that have other mods or desires in addition, and that some owners have CEL issues from improper installation or improper o2 sensor connections. I was impressed by his knowledge and the time he gave to explain the variables. Its all on order now. Also glad that my local Viper tech for the install agrees with all this and that he has installed many of Lou's products with great success.

[slitherv10]

For a long time now I have seen numerous CEL post issues with the Gen 4 after header mods etc and until now has kept me from getting any headers or hi flow cats. But after a long and informative conversation with Lou about CEL issues and emission problems I did not want to to deal with, he explained that his headers and cats PROPERLY installed will not throw a CEL and will pass emissions WITHOUT having to install the Mopar PCM. He mentioned the PCM need for those that have other mods or desires in addition, and that some owners have CEL issues from improper installation or improper o2 sensor connections. I was impressed by his knowledge and the time he gave to explain the variables. Its all on order now. Also glad that my local Viper tech for the install agrees with all this and that he has installed many of Lou's products with great success.

So....
I had the same conversation with him a few years back about why my car Gen 2 GTS) did not dyno 50+RWHP as his guarantee says and he told me they were installed wrong as well. Can't see that being the case with so many people having the same issue but, please do tell as to what Lou's solution is to the CEL then 80% of us who have installed them wrong can install them properly and get the gains that are advertised.

[ACRucrazy]

How can headers really be installed wrong. Are they bolted up? Are they sealed tight? Yes? Move on lol.

[Getnlwr]

Yea, Kinda curious how you install them wrong. . . Im just curious how hard the 2pc set is to install.

[Late Apex]

How can headers really be installed wrong. Are they bolted up? Are they sealed tight? Yes? Move on lol. Per part of my info he gave me it happens with the 02 sensors a lot being placed incorrectly or spliced setting off a CEL. Time will only tell after I get it all installed but my Viper tech along with Mark J. at Woodhouse has sold and installed dozens of these with good success. Will post unbiased results soon on any issues and performance increases though.

[FLATOUT]

Even this isn't an issue you don't have to splice anything that I'm aware of, everything is plug and play. I would bet that there are plenty of people that have everything installed correctly that still get CEL's. The factory ECU is just way to sensitive. Why not go with the race ECU so you don't have to worry about it?





Per part of my info he gave me it happens with the 02 sensors a lot being placed incorrectly or spliced setting off a CEL. Time will only tell after I get it all installed but my Viper tech along with Mark J. at Woodhouse has sold and installed dozens of these with good success. Will post unbiased results soon on any issues and performance increases though.

[viper04]

Per part of my info he gave me it happens with the 02 sensors a lot being placed incorrectly or spliced setting off a CEL. Time will only tell after I get it all installed but my Viper tech along with Mark J. at Woodhouse has sold and installed dozens of these with good success. Will post unbiased results soon on any issues and performance increases though.

Please keep us posted on this. Thanks.

[01sapphirebob]

Why not go with the race ECU so you don't have to worry about it?

Its tough. Like my situation...i thought about doing exhaust for a long time but the one BIG thing that ever kept me from doing it was that i live in a county that requires emissions testing to get your yearly sticker. If i put an exhaust on thats gonna throw a CEL then whats the point. Also...the MOPAR PCM would not pass this same emissions testing. Thats a lot of money for someone to spend only to find out that they then cant drive their car.

[Nine Ball]

The only way the O2 would likely throw a code is if the collector flange had a leak and air was being pulled in upstream of the O2 sensor. I don't see that happening on the Belangers, the flanges fit very well.

[MtnBiker]

I have had only one problem/CEL with my Belanger setup (described below). Yes, I have the Mopar ECU, and in order to pass inspection I have to remove it, install the OEM ECU, drive 100 miles then get it inspected. After it passes inspection I just reinstall the Mopar ECU.

Now, I did have one CEL due to the 02 sensors (some folks on here will recall my frantic phone calls for help as I was planning to drive the Viper to Colorado the next day. Ended up taking the wife's Audi S4 since this ocurred on a Saturday and I was leaving Sunday). While I was gone, Bernie drove a trailer to my house, picked the car up, had it fixed and put it back in my garage prior to my return home (now that's service!!). I'm not exaclty sure what had happened, but the CEL occured right after I had gunned it off a light, hit some bumps in the road which caused the car to hop/shake hard. I believe the 02 Sensor was knocked loose and immediately burned. Other than that single occurence I've had no problems.

[Late Apex]

I have had only one problem/CEL with my Belanger setup (described below). Yes, I have the Mopar ECU, and in order to pass inspection I have to remove it, install the OEM ECU, drive 100 miles then get it inspected. After it passes inspection I just reinstall the Mopar ECU.

Now, I did have one CEL due to the 02 sensors (some folks on here will recall my frantic phone calls for help as I was planning to drive the Viper to Colorado the next day. Ended up taking the wife's Audi S4 since this ocurred on a Saturday and I was leaving Sunday). While I was gone, Bernie drove a trailer to my house, picked the car up, had it fixed and put it back in my garage prior to my return home (now that's service!!). I'm not exaclty sure what had happened, but the CEL occured right after I had gunned it off a light, hit some bumps in the road which caused the car to hop/shake hard. I believe the 02 Sensor was knocked loose and immediately burned. Other than that single occurence I've had no problems. Hey John, this is a very informative reply and much appreciated, and that does not surprise me with Bernie's exceptional service. If it were not for Tomball doing the install I probably would not be getting this done at all. Will just hope I do not have to go with the addition of the Mopar ECU as that is a real hassle to change it out each year, drive the miles, and then get the inspection to pass. Parts will be in next week. Morgan is doing the trans mount too while under it all. Hope you like the wheels and tires. Enjoyed or visit too.

[Late Apex]

The only way the O2 would likely throw a code is if the collector flange had a leak and air was being pulled in upstream of the O2 sensor. I don't see that happening on the Belangers, the flanges fit very well. Very interesting thoughts and much appreciated.

[FLATOUT]

You're going to love the new power :)

[Victxv10]

My 08 with full Belanger put up CEL until Mopar controller was added last July.

[MtnBiker]

Hey John, this is a very informative reply and much appreciated, and that does not surprise me with Bernie's exceptional service. If it were not for Tomball doing the install I probably would not be getting this done at all. Will just hope I do not have to go with the addition of the Mopar ECU as that is a real hassle to change it out each year, drive the miles, and then get the inspection to pass. Parts will be in next week. Morgan is doing the trans mount too while under it all. Hope you like the wheels and tires. Enjoyed or visit too.

Mark, I enjoyed the visit too, thank you.

Just one more piece of info. I did not install the Mopar ECU until quite some time after the Belanger setup was installed. I never had any problems with it. And I aboslutely loved the popping on decel (coming off freeway onto feeder in 5th and let it coast down it just sounds like fireworks going off).

The Mopar ECU really wakes the car up, and swapping it out is not a big deal. Takes me about 10 minutes (and Andy can attest I am no good with things mechanical). The only regret is it takes away the decel popping, except at around 5000 RPMs then it lets out a loud bang or two :).

[slitherv10]

Like I said earlier, I personally would like to see if the gains that belanger says it produces, when installed correctly are true.

[MtnBiker]

The headers added approx. 40HP in my seat of the pants experience (before Mopar ECU installed). And the sound, oh the sound, is fantastic.

[Victxv10]

And the sound, oh the sound, is fantastic.

I will go out in the garage and just start it and let it idle. My wife tells me I'm losing my mind. I just tell her I'm resetting it with therapy.

[Rizzo]

My ACR has the full Belanger and Mopar PCM but the fellow I bought it from thought it was too loud with the Belanger mufflers so he put the stock muffler back on. Ive only driven the car once and I thought it was way too quiet and didn't really like the sound so I think the first thing I will do is add the Belanger muffler back on as I like it LOUD. Im hoping it adds a lot to the sound as right now it basically sounds like a slightly louder version of the stock exhaust. Has anybody tried this and what were your thoughts? Will the Belanger mufflers make much difference?

[Victxv10]

My ACR has the full Belanger and Mopar PCM but the fellow I bought it from thought it was too loud with the Belanger mufflers so he put the stock muffler back on. Ive only driven the car once and I thought it was way too quiet and didn't really like the sound so I think the first thing I will do is add the Belanger muffler back on as I like it LOUD. Im hoping it adds a lot to the sound as right now it basically sounds like a slightly louder version of the stock exhaust. Has anybody tried this and what were your thoughts? Will the Belanger mufflers make much difference?

I have the full system and it is loud, but not to where my neighbors hate me in the mornings/nights. The mufflers he used when mine were installed in 2008 are Magnaflow's. Not sure if those are still used or not.

[Dusty1]

Most of my ECU codes have been from the shorting of the front O2 sensor, if the heat protection isn't just right will melt right through the wires. The ECU is held on by three screws and 4 plugs (careful with the plug locks)! No reason driving a stealth Viper! Though I normally recommend doing the safety things like Stainless Brake lines, Motul Brake fluid, Team Tech 6 point Harnesses, Track Wheels and Hoosiers before adding more power. That sound change is great though!

Richard

[Dusty1]

Also not a real fan of the droan of the whole Balenger system, heard they have worked on that though. We went with the Corsa backside of the system.

[Sonoman]

Rizzo: I found the stock Gen IV mufflers to be much quieter overall (and especially at lower RPMs) than any of the popular aftermarket options out there. My car with the Corsa mufflers parked next to a stock Gen IV was like night and day in sound output. Since the stock Gen IV muffler is fairly quiet, it will attenuate any tone changes upstream (headers or hi-flow cats) and make them less obvious.
If you like it loud and already have a set of Belangers sitting around, I wouldn't hesitate to get them on the car. Keep in mind if the mufflers are not VERY well clamped or tack welded to the inlet pipe, the mufflers can have a tendency to rotate over time which commonly results in the exit tips drooping to the point where they contact the sills.

[MtnBiker]

Also not a real fan of the droan of the whole Balenger system, heard they have worked on that though. We went with the Corsa backside of the system.

There is some drone, no doubt. I almost always run with the windows down, and that helps. And I try to stay out of the narrow RPM band in which it occurs. I also have gotten used to it mostly.


Keep in mind if the mufflers are not VERY well clamped or tack welded to the inlet pipe, the mufflers can have a tendency to rotate over time which commonly results in the exit tips drooping to the point where they contact the sills.

Yes, that happened to mine once. Caused an annoying rattle until I had it fixed.

[FLATOUT]

This is a good point, I actually wrapped all of my O2 sensor wires in heat reflecting tape as well as securing everything out of the way. Take your time and do this correctly and you wont have any problems.

Andy


Most of my ECU codes have been from the shorting of the front O2 sensor, if the heat protection isn't just right will melt right through the wires. The ECU is held on by three screws and 4 plugs (careful with the plug locks)! No reason driving a stealth Viper! Though I normally recommend doing the safety things like Stainless Brake lines, Motul Brake fluid, Team Tech 6 point Harnesses, Track Wheels and Hoosiers before adding more power. That sound change is great though!

Richard

[Late Apex]

My ACR has the full Belanger and Mopar PCM but the fellow I bought it from thought it was too loud with the Belanger mufflers so he put the stock muffler back on. Ive only driven the car once and I thought it was way too quiet and didn't really like the sound so I think the first thing I will do is add the Belanger muffler back on as I like it LOUD. Im hoping it adds a lot to the sound as right now it basically sounds like a slightly louder version of the stock exhaust. Has anybody tried this and what were your thoughts? Will the Belanger mufflers make much difference? Thanks for the reply Rizzo, I already have the Belanger cat back and Im one who likes it VERY loud so I should be good to go with the rest of the system. In fact I also asked Lou about using NO mufflers along with his system and he only said its a matter of preference but also suggested trying different size mufflers (length) to get the desired results. That process to me is way to time consuming on labor. Im sure it will never be as loud as my old Gen 2 GTS as it had heads, cam, rockers etc but I learned the hard way with all the many dollars spent on that car, you never get a portion of the investment back.

[Rizzo]

Rizzo: I found the stock Gen IV mufflers to be much quieter overall (and especially at lower RPMs) than any of the popular aftermarket options out there. My car with the Corsa mufflers parked next to a stock Gen IV was like night and day in sound output. Since the stock Gen IV muffler is fairly quiet, it will attenuate any tone changes upstream (headers or hi-flow cats) and make them less obvious.
If you like it loud and already have a set of Belangers sitting around, I wouldn't hesitate to get them on the car. Keep in mind if the mufflers are not VERY well clamped or tack welded to the inlet pipe, the mufflers can have a tendency to rotate over time which commonly results in the exit tips drooping to the point where they contact the sills.

My car has the full Belanger headers on it as well as the high flow cats. The fellow I bought it from left the headers and the HF cats on but simply put the stock muffler back on. Ill definitely be taking that off and putting the Belanger mufflers back on to get some of that sound back. Now if the 2 feet of snow that we just got would melt I could actually go and get the car and bring it home so I could try it out...LOL. This has been the longest coldest winter weve ever had. I need a car fix. I'm going through withdrawal.LOL

[Slithr]

Morgan is doing the trans mount too while under it all.

Mark, FYI Mark at Woodhouse told me not to do the stiffer trans mount unless you're doing the stiffer engine mounts at the same time ..... not good to have one stiffer than the other is what I understood? Made sense to me, might be worth a call to Mark?

[Late Apex]

Mark, FYI Mark at Woodhouse told me not to do the stiffer trans mount unless you're doing the stiffer engine mounts at the same time ..... not good to have one stiffer than the other is what I understood? Made sense to me, might be worth a call to Mark? I guess every tech has their own opinion but when I asked Morgan about doing the engine mounts too he said they will jar you to death so I declined on those but he did recommend the trans mount upgrade. Still looking for an all out quality road race Viper (non street car) so I do not have to even mess with all this small stuff and various opinions on a street car. Hope all is well and thanks for the info.

[ACRucrazy]

If anyone is doing headers I would make sure the Mopar PCM is also on that list. The benefits are are small and many, added up it's a no brainer IMO. It raises the rev limit, ignores the down stream O2, gets rid of the skip shift, increases the throttle response.

[slitherv10]

If anyone is doing headers I would make sure the Mopar PCM is also on that list. The benefits are are small and many, added up it's a no brainer IMO. It raises the rev limit, ignores the down stream O2, gets rid of the skip shift, increases the throttle response.

BINGO !! You hit it right on the nail.

[PaulP]

Where did you get your mopar PCM? from local mopar dealer or online viper vender? ruff $$$?

[ACRucrazy]

JonB @ Parts Rack has some

[mjorgensen]

I guess every tech has their own opinion but when I asked Morgan about doing the engine mounts too he said they will jar you to death so I declined on those but he did recommend the trans mount upgrade. Still looking for an all out quality road race Viper (non street car) so I do not have to even mess with all this small stuff and various opinions on a street car. Hope all is well and thanks for the info.

First of all I like Morgan, but to me the fact that the stock engine mounts flex all over the place will put undo stress not only on the trans mount, but its mounting point, sooner or later something will have to give, that's where my suggestion comes from FWIW. Although doing them all does add vibration, the benefits out weight this for most buyers with the reduction in wheel hop, much more precise shifting and tighter throttle response.

Thanks,

[FLATOUT]

Both sugestions make sense. Some guys cry over the slightest vibration or "race car feel", while others can't get enough of it lol. I know Morgan try's to d a good job of adapting the build at times to owners known preferences if that makes sense. I would do them both at the same time, but could understand someone just wanting to do the trans mount.


First of all I like Morgan, but to me the fact that the stock engine mounts flex all over the place will put undo stress not only on the trans mount, but its mounting point, sooner or later something will have to give, that's where my suggestion comes from FWIW. Although doing them all does add vibration, the benefits out weight this for most buyers with the reduction in wheel hop, much more precise shifting and tighter throttle response.

Thanks,

[FrgMstr]

I have Woodhouse motor and tranny mounts in mine and have put many long road miles on it since then. Yes, you can tell a difference in vibration through the cabin and controls. It has never been a "bad" thing. The only thing that has been off-putting to me has been the change in vibration with temperature swings. I have driven the car a lot through Texas summers. I have been lucky in that I have been able to drive the car a lot in the last few months as well when it has been very cold. (Michelin Super Sports went a long way to making the car manageable with low temperatures.) There have been a couple of times when it is cold out that I have thought there was an issue with the car due to the mounts transmitting more vibration at low temps.

Overall the Woodhouse mounts have been worth every penny and are easily done with just a few tools. If you are doing headers yourself, or I guess having these installed, the only reason not to put those in would be if you are overly sensitive to the vibration. The upsides far outweigh the downsides.

More on topic, I did my own Belanger headers in the garage. Take your time and pay attention to the details and you should not have any install issues.

[labtec]

.....Take your time and pay attention to the details and you should not have any install issues.

+1, like FrgMstr I did own install on 04 at friends garage. To make sure you route the oxygen sensor wires correctly take your time and read instructions when no one is looking :) We had bonus work removing the mating snakes assembly (cross over pipes) so it took a little longer than a Gen 4. btw Lou is the man! I talked directly with Lou multiple times and he covered all details of the installation to ensure a perfect install.

[Late Apex]

First of all I like Morgan, but to me the fact that the stock engine mounts flex all over the place will put undo stress not only on the trans mount, but its mounting point, sooner or later something will have to give, that's where my suggestion comes from FWIW. Although doing them all does add vibration, the benefits out weight this for most buyers with the reduction in wheel hop, much more precise shifting and tighter throttle response.

Thanks, Very good info here Mark, and I just left you a voice mail referencing all this. Your office was closed.

[mjorgensen]

Very good info here Mark, and I just left you a voice mail referencing all this. Your office was closed.

Left you a voice mail Mark with my cell number, it's in my signature below also.

Thanks,

[Late Apex]

Left you a voice mail Mark with my cell number, it's in my signature below also.

Thanks, Many thanks for the good info and taking my order today.