Belanger headers exhaust throwing a CEL?

[slitherv10]

Looking at an 08 ACR with Full Belanger headers/exhaust installed as well as K&N Filters. The car has the CEL on and the owners says its the Belanger doing it. My 96 GTS has Belanger headers and no CEL thrown.

Is this something common or something wrong that can be rectified?

[BlknBlu]

do you still have the front and rear o2 sensors on the exhaust?

Bruce

[slitherv10]

do you still have the front and rear o2 sensors on the exhaust?

Bruce

Don't know if they are still on or not.

Why? What are you thinking?

[BlknBlu]

if both are there then it would be something else. IF you have the back 2 and the Mopar ECU you should be fine, but if the front is not there then that will throw a code if that makes sense.

Bruce

[slitherv10]

if both are there then it would be something else. IF you have the back 2 and the Mopar ECU you should be fine, but if the front is not there then that will throw a code if that makes sense.

Bruce

So your saying that all 4 sensors, front 2 and back two along with the Mopar ECU, it should not throw the light, if any of the sensors are missing, esp the front ones, then it should light up the CEL. All this as long as the car still has the original ECU and not a performance one still in the car.

[BlknBlu]

all 4 good
stock ECU with any removed will throw code
back 2 still in with Mopar ECU good
only front removed with either stock or mopar ECU will throw a code.

Bruce

[slitherv10]

all 4 good
stock ECU with any removed will throw code
back 2 still in with Mopar ECU good
only front removed with either stock or mopar ECU will throw a code.

Bruce

Thanks Bruce,

I'll have to check in on that and re post the findings.

[cubican]

you can used spacers on the rear 02 that will fix your problem on the 08-10. if the front 02 are remove your car won't run at all.

[slitherv10]

you can used spacers on the rear 02 that will fix your problem on the 08-10. if the front 02 are remove your car won't run at all.

spacers...you mean simulators?

[ICPREY]

He probably means spark plug foulers...

[ACRucrazy]

Spark plug non foulers.

[slitherv10]

He probably means spark plug foulers...

oh ok...

[Late Apex]

Looking at an 08 ACR with Full Belanger headers/exhaust installed as well as K&N Filters. The car has the CEL on and the owners says its the Belanger doing it. My 96 GTS has Belanger headers and no CEL thrown.

Is this something common or something wrong that can be rectified? The Gen 2 motor was far superior in handling bolt ons etc. without any CEL. My 99 had everything possible except a blower and never a light but CELs are so common on the sensitive Gen 4s that I decided a long time ago not to change much on the engine.

[cubican]

That's correct spark plug non fouler simple fix.

[Westxsrt10]

No simple fix. The Mopar ECM only hides the codes on the dash and will show up during a OBD smog test. (no OBD port smog test will likely pass) The common used non fouler's will not fit. The car has to be driven hard and NEVER lugged, no key on without starting the engine, no long low rpm idle times.

[Back In Black]

The common used non fouler's will not fit.

They fit fine on my car.

[Westxsrt10]

They fit fine on my car.

Are you running a complete Belanger exhaust? The standard shortest straight fouler would not fit in my sill, I had to install a 90 degree elbow first.

[slitherv10]

[QUOTE=Westxsrt10;36214]Are you running a complete Belanger exhaust? The standard shortest straight fouler would not fit in my sill,[B] I had to install a 90 degree elbow first.[/QUOT

Did the install of the fouler with the 90 degree bend, fix the CEL problem and pass the car during smog testing?

]

[cubican]

No simple fix. The Mopar ECM only hides the codes on the dash and will show up during a OBD smog test. (no OBD port smog test will likely pass) The common used non fouler's will not fit. The car has to be driven hard and NEVER lugged, no key on without starting the engine, no long low rpm idle times.
Sorry but your info is not correct, is very simple to clear the codes on the PCM, and on the foulers if one don't work stack 2of them ,or there are some fouler that are custom made that are longer. you can find them on eBay and if the longer one don't do the trick used a 90deg elbow fouler. One more trick you can take the o2 out but plugged in, and plug the o2 hole..

[Westxsrt10]

Sorry but your info is not correct, is very simple to clear the codes on the PCM, and on the foulers if one don't work stack 2of them ,or there are some fouler that are custom made that are longer. you can find them on eBay and if the longer one don't do the trick used a 90deg elbow fouler. One more trick you can take the o2 out but plugged in, and plug the o2 hole..

The fact is the codes are NOT easy to completely clear, they will appear deep in ECM after cleared on the dash CEL. It takes many drive cycles to rid them from the system, the smog testing computer will pick them up as a "INC" or pending and fail the test. (Gen 4 the 'year matters'). Clearing the codes with a 'Code Reader' only turns out the dash light.

[Westxsrt10]

[QUOTE=Westxsrt10;36214]Are you running a complete Belanger exhaust? The standard shortest straight fouler would not fit in my sill,[B] I had to install a 90 degree elbow first.[/QUOT

Did the install of the fouler with the 90 degree bend, fix the CEL problem and pass the car during smog testing?

]

YES....I used the shortest possible fittings and drilled them out as much as I could. The faster they heat up the less codes that appear, higher idle start-up rpm's helped them warmed up faster and not throw a internal code.

[RedTanRT/10]

No simple fix. The Mopar ECM only hides the codes on the dash and will show up during a OBD smog test. (no OBD port smog test will likely pass) The common used non fouler's will not fit. The car has to be driven hard and NEVER lugged, no key on without starting the engine, no long low rpm idle times.

slitherv10, as Westxsrt says above, this is the only way to prevent a CEL with Gen IV headers. Dan Cragin told me when I got them and Eddie Martin has posted the same, "it's not IF, it's when" the CEL will come on. Surprised the seller doesn't have the vemon ECU. It will eliminate the CEL light (but not the code/condition), more importantly it should give you closer to 10 rwhp and 15 trq with headers, plus other benefits (500 more rpm, skip, shift). Mike

[ViperGeorge]

The fact is the codes are NOT easy to completely clear, they will appear deep in ECM after cleared on the dash CEL. It takes many drive cycles to rid them from the system, the smog testing computer will pick them up as a "INC" or pending and fail the test. (Gen 4 the 'year matters'). Clearing the codes with a 'Code Reader' only turns out the dash light.

Sorry but this is technically not correct. What you are referring to are the IM Monitors. These are tests that the PCM performs to check out various systems. These tests include EVAP, O2, Heated O2, etc. Most of these diagnostic tests would have to show as passed in most states before a smog inspection would pass (some states allow you to get away with one test still showing as Incomplete). They are technically not codes in that sense but you are correct that the car must be driven several drive cycles with certain conditions being met before they will all pass. Some tests run right away but the EVAP test can take a long time to complete. A code is set when the PCM recognizes a malfunction of some kind. In fact the Check Engine Light is actually called the Malfunction Indicator Light although most of us call it the Check Engine Light because of the shape of the symbol that lights up. When you clear a trouble code the PCM resets the IM Monitors to incomplete and the tests must be redone.

The Mopar PCM will not pass OBD II smog tests because it never runs some of the IM Monitor tests. They always show as incomplete. It also does not bother looking at the rear O2 sensors which are only there to validate CAT efficiency. This is why the rear O2s can be removed with a Mopar PCM and why it will not throw a code for them.

Cars with headers often can melt the wires on the rear O2s. Even with a Mopar PCM this will cause a Malfunction Indicator and throw codes. The car will also run like crap if the rear O2 wires short as this causes the ASD fuse to blow.

[cubican]

09viperacr That's a great explanation. Cheers

[slitherv10]

So seeing as there are smog tests here, what process would I need in order to get the car to pass. ie...do I need to replace the OEM ECU with a Mopar performance one? Just not sure as there is a lot of information here (thanks for that guys by the way).

[cubican]

Just go for the foulers and your done that's a 20.00 fix.

[slitherv10]

Just go for the foulers and your done that's a 20.00 fix.

Sounds good...thanks...I will check ebay and see what is around.

[RedTanRT/10]

Sounds good...thanks...I will check ebay and see what is around.


If that works, please post. If it doesn't, use the scan tool to clear the code, then read post #15

[Westxsrt10]

So seeing as there are smog tests here, what process would I need in order to get the car to pass. ie...do I need to replace the OEM ECU with a Mopar performance one? Just not sure as there is a lot of information here (thanks for that guys by the way).

Try this> I went to the local Smog test location and talked to the guys first....he explained that in my region you can have one INComplete IM monitor and still pass. They even tested it for free with his personal equipment before the official test. The anti-fouler alone won't help on a Gen4.
I have talked in length about this issue with the Viper Wizard and Lou Belanger (buy a case of the foulers, you will get good at removing the side sills)

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

'08 is virtually ALWAYS gonna need a Mopar Performance PCM with headers, to eliminate CEL/MILs except as noted in the GREAT write-up below:




Sorry but this is technically not correct. What you are referring to are the IM Monitors. These are tests that the PCM performs to check out various systems. These tests include EVAP, O2, Heated O2, etc. Most of these diagnostic tests would have to show as passed in most states before a smog inspection would pass (some states allow you to get away with one test still showing as Incomplete). They are technically not codes in that sense but you are correct that the car must be driven several drive cycles with certain conditions being met before they will all pass. Some tests run right away but the EVAP test can take a long time to complete. A code is set when the PCM recognizes a malfunction of some kind. In fact the Check Engine Light is actually called the Malfunction Indicator Light although most of us call it the Check Engine Light because of the shape of the symbol that lights up. When you clear a trouble code the PCM resets the IM Monitors to incomplete and the tests must be redone.

The Mopar PCM will not pass OBD II smog tests because it never runs some of the IM Monitor tests. They always show as incomplete. It also does not bother looking at the rear O2 sensors which are only there to validate CAT efficiency. This is why the rear O2s can be removed with a Mopar PCM and why it will not throw a code for them.

Cars with headers often can melt the wires on the rear O2s. Even with a Mopar PCM this will cause a Malfunction Indicator and throw codes. The car will also run like crap if the rear O2 wires short as this causes the ASD fuse to blow.

[ViperGeorge]

So seeing as there are smog tests here, what process would I need in order to get the car to pass. ie...do I need to replace the OEM ECU with a Mopar performance one? Just not sure as there is a lot of information here (thanks for that guys by the way).

Hard to answer this question. Depends on the specific regulations where you live. If your local smog station runs a plug in OBD II test you would not pass if there are any trouble codes set (which of course results in the Malfunction Indicator being lite - Check Engine Light to most people). You would also likely not pass if the IM Monitors have not been run and set to complete, again some localities do allow one IM Monitor to be incomplete. Usually the EVAP IM Monitor takes the longest time to complete and would likely be the one that is last to finish. Clearing codes or disconnecting the battery results in the IM Monitors being reset to incomplete.

The Mopar controller would not help you either since it does not even attempt to run some of the IM Monitor tests and they are therefore always marked as incomplete. With headers I would say the best bet is to leave in the stock PCM run the car hard (don't lug it in gear, ie. don't run too slow in a high gear). Get a code reader and the moment all of the IM Monitors show as complete and there are no other codes set head to the inspection station. As JonB points out though 08s tend to throw codes with headers. My 09 ACR was fine with headers and the stock PCM but I installed the Mopar PCM as I kept melting the rear O2 wires. With the Mopar PCM I've removed the rear O2s and zip tied them to the frame out of harms way which eliminated the wire melting issue. I actually wasn't sure if unplugging them all together would confuse the Mopar PCM so I chose to leave them connected but not installed.

Once your car passes smog you can then install the Mopar PCM until the next time you have to get the car inspected. In my case that is never since my car is registered in a location without smog testing.

[Garron]

Most people in Ontario who own a gen 4 run a mopar pcm and have no rear oxygen sensors (unplugged) with headers. As others have already stated there are two problems with headers and a stock pcm:

1. G4 cars have a higher sensitivity to engine lights with headers
2. On a Gen 4 if the oxygen sensor wires melt they share the same fuse of the fuel injectors. This can cause a no start or an engine to run on 5 cylinders. The G3 and older vipers had a separate fuse for the oxygen sensors.

If you run foulers you still need the to run rear oxygen sensors, you still have a problem with #2

Come e-test time you can re-install the oxygen sensors and stock pcm run the test and go back to the way it was before.

Garrett

[ACRucrazy]

There are several benefits to the Mopar PCM. I wouldn't consider throwing on a bunch of boltons without it. It's like trying to fight with 1 hand tied behind your back.

[Back In Black]

Are you running a complete Belanger exhaust? The standard shortest straight fouler would not fit in my sill, I had to install a 90 degree elbow first.

No, my own design.

From day one after my header install I never once had a "MIL". I've also never melted the wires and they've been exposed to as much heat as they'll ever see...repeatedly. I haven't touched them in 5 years. Insulate the wires and run them under the exhaust (with 02 cable extenders) and you will be fine.

The first anti-fouler (the one attached to the 02 bung) has a small hole in the end. The second one has to be drilled out enough so the end of the sensor will fit through the hole. That's it. It works! The 02's need heat or they will set a code.

02 sims are the only other alternative for those that have to pass smog tests. I have no experience with them and have no idea if they work on Gen4 cars.

Disclaimer....this is for off road use only. I do not advocate defeating emissions control devices on any street driven vehicle.

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b622/BackInBlack63/DSCN3232_zps5bd08969.jpg (http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/BackInBlack63/media/DSCN3232_zps5bd08969.jpg.html)

[Westxsrt10]

BinB..thanks for the photo and information.
Is your photo showing the first upstream sensor? I'm guessing you moved it from the single cyl. downtube read location.
Are you still running the second sensor after the cat.

[Back In Black]

BinB..thanks for the photo and information.
Is your photo showing the first upstream sensor? I'm guessing you moved it from the single cyl. downtube read location.
Are you still running the second sensor after the cat.

No, that is a pic of the downstream 02. The upstream 02 is in the middle header tube.

You do not want to do this to the upstream 02 sensor. There is no need for it and it will cause all kinds of problems.

[Steve M]

These spark plug anti-foulers...are they the same thing as this?

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16148

I used one of these on my old Camaro for a wideband O2 sensor install, and it worked great, although they are expensive.

[ACRucrazy]

$89 :O

Usually $5-$8 at the local Autozone, Napa, Advanced Auto.

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/dorman-help-spark-plug-non-foulers-18mm-gasket-seat-42009/5014999-p?cm_mmc=ACQ-_-Google-_-GPLA-_-5014999&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=5014999&ci_gpa=pla&ci_kw=&gclid=CP7m_dKL_LwCFaw-MgodQzYAHQ#utm_source=acq&utm_medium=google&utm_campaign=gpla&utm_content=5014999