Considering new 911 Turbo S but to keep TA or sell is the question

[Bruce H.]

I've got the new car itch and really the only new or newer car that appeals to me is the current 991.2 Porsche Turbo S. I'd like something that would extend our short northern driving season, at least be as great for weekend fun and long distance road trips as the TA has been, and of course still run with the fast guys at the odd track day! I've considered absolutely everything else and this 911 with AWD seems to fit the bill best. I drove one and while it's a hugely impressive and incredibly well-rounded sports car, it's rather lacking in what makes the Viper so special and such an event to own and drive.

So it's this emotional deficit that makes the 911 vs TA decision so difficult. If I let the TA go I know I'll regret it, and have been told I'll be hunting for one again within 2 years, and if I keep it and get the 911 then neither will see much use as I barely seem to have the opportunity to drive the TA as it is. My daily uses mostly requires a truck.

Who else has found themselves in this dilemma, and what advice can you offer? Is life worth living after parting with the Viper, and can you ever love another car as much again? There's really no pressing need to let the TA go, even has warranty until 2021, but I'm afraid if I keep it that it'll get driven about 6 times a year and I couldn't bare to do that to the car and would rather see a new owner fall in love with it.

Decisions, decisions. Any happy Turbo S owners out there that enjoy their's on track the odd time?

Bruce

[sharmut]

Keep the TA, drive the TurboS during the off season. Savor the anticipation when the TA exits hibernation.

[darbgnik]

I was in the same boat as you Bruce, when I bought my Viper. I kept my Gallardo for a year after purchasing the Viper. And when I bought the Gallardo I kept my old Viper for a year with that.

My personal experience has been that only the new one gets driven, well, because it's new. And both being fast toys, they both fill the same role.... This does relegate the TA to occasional status that you fear.

On the plus side, the Turbo S will be almost as fun on track, and much more civilized while you're driving there. They are great, fast cars.

[SRT_BluByU]

911’s a bit on the boring side for the 10 year old mentality in me... just something very special about the Viper thats exciting.. if your bored maybe consider adding a 9L to the party.

[RyanSchoen]

Easy decision sell the TA to me and enjoy your Porsche!!

[LuvSpeed]

Personally I would keep the TA and get the 911. Both cars offer completely different driving experiences. You can appreciate them for what they are and drive which one suites your fancy at the time. Of course you will have less time in the TA, but I would not let fewer mileage a year bother me. If you can afford it, do both. Speaking from personal experience from a guy who DDs a truck and has a few other cars to drive.

[dewilmoth]

As much as I loved my 997 Turbo, I think I’d personally go the Mac route if I had to have only one fun car. The 991.2 Turbo is the best all-around “quality” sports car on the market IMO, but i thought it was pretty boring when I test drove it. If you keep the Viper, the TTS fits nicely, but if you are selling the Viper, I think you’ll miss the excitement.

[SilveRT8]

Hi my good friend Bruce,
As you know that I have both a TA2 and a 991.2 Turbo S Cabrio, and we've done some lapping together and you loved the ride in the Turbo at Tremblant 2 years ago. So I say YES get a Turbo S for all the good reasons as it's a great all around performer that you can use all year long, comfortable when cruising, tough track car, even on the Dragstrip as mine did a 10.58 quarter mile all stock. All that this car desperately needs is a better sounding exhaust and you're done with.
But do NOT sell the TA as you will definitely regret it down the road. As much as I love the Turbo, the Viper is the car that comes out when I get the itch for a real car ride with it's Badass look, row your own gears, menacing sound and it's the only car that brings out all the emotions in me. To me the Turbo is like the great race horse at the Kentucky derby but the Viper is the one at the Rodeo show.
BTW, here's a small video of a lap at Tremblant last month filmed from our friend Mardig's ACR-E following me in the Turbo S. As you can see the Turbo pulls away in the straights but the Viper quickly catches up in the corners.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W121HbyYGE8&feature=youtu.be

[F2V]

Yup, I agree, time to move on. Go with you gut feel.

[ViperJon]

Simple. Sell the TA and get an ACR-E. You won't miss the TA for a moment and have the best Viper ever.

[swexlin]

Keep the TA, drive the TurboS during the off season. Savor the anticipation when the TA exits hibernation.


This. You're already regretting selling the TA, and you haven't sold it yet. I've only been able to drive my Viper less than 1000 miles this year, and it's been sitting a month again now - EVERY weekend, we have crappy weather. So it sits.

But, when I do drive it, it makes it special. Unless financially you need to sell the TA, keep it.

[1.8t]

My older brother bought a 991.2 Turbo S. He had it for 6 months before he got tired of it for the very reasons you want it, it was just too good. The driving experience isn’t any different from normal cars in almost any way other than crazy acceleration and traction. It was his 3rd 911 and he decided to go back to a GT3 which still remains his favorite 911. His 991.2 GT3 touring should be ready for delivery in December.

If you want a car that delivers an experience, the turbo wasn’t it for him. I always told him that using the turbo every day was where the experience was found. If you do get a turbo, use it for what it is amazing at...being good at everything. Drive it to the office, to the grocery store, on trips, at the track, etc. I think if you keep it as a “toy” it won’t have enough of a “toy” persona to fill the void.

[nuviper]

Buy a carrera 4 or 4s and keep the TA.

[swexlin]

If money weren't an object, I'd go for the GT3 RS....a friend has one (he also has an ACR) and that car is incredible. Wow.

But keep the TA!

[ViperGeorge]

The Viper stands out from the crowd. When you pull up in a Viper, people notice. They say wow! Same thing you say when you drive it. When you pull up in 911 Turbo people go "nice Porsche", most don't know the difference between a regular 911 and the Turbo. They are all too similar and the style, while iconic, has been almost the same for 30 years. I had considered getting a 911 Turbo Cabrio as a daily driver (I live in the Denver area) and then I said heck I'll buy another Viper for a daily driver. I drove the Viper everyday to work (until I retired) as long as it wasn't snowing. If it snowed (which actually doesn't happen too often here) I would pull out my Wrangler. Driving the Viper everyday was a thrill for me and almost everyone that saw it.

[swexlin]

Cool story George.

[Snakebit10]

I'm sure you could mod the TT S to be as fast or faster than the TA if you chose to while still retaining the all weather capability and minimal ride deterioration. But you will obviously not get the snakes charming demeanor nor the outrageous looks. The Performante would probably be the best of both worlds.

[Scott_in_fl]

Hi my good friend Bruce,
...But do NOT sell the TA as you will definitely regret it down the road. As much as I love the Turbo, the Viper is the car that comes out when I get the itch for a real car ride with it's Badass look, row your own gears, menacing sound and it's the only car that brings out all the emotions in me. To me the Turbo is like the great race horse at the Kentucky derby but the Viper is the one at the Rodeo show.
BTW, here's a small video of a lap at Tremblant last month filmed from our friend Mardig's ACR-E following me in the Turbo S. As you can see the Turbo pulls away in the straights but the Viper quickly catches up in the corners.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W121HbyYGE8&feature=youtu.be

This is the right move, since you can keep both for at least several months and then decide if you want to let go of the T/A. My bet is that after 6 months with the 911TT, that you will come to your senses and be happy that you did not get rid of the T/A. The driving experience is simply too muted in the gadget cars. Whenever I take the Viper out, I am instantly reminded why it can never be sold.


The Viper stands out from the crowd. When you pull up in a Viper, people notice. They say wow! Same thing you say when you drive it. When you pull up in 911 Turbo people go "nice Porsche", most don't know the difference between a regular 911 and the Turbo. They are all too similar and the style, while iconic, has been almost the same for 30 years. I had considered getting a 911 Turbo Cabrio as a daily driver (I live in the Denver area) and then I said heck I'll buy another Viper for a daily driver. I drove the Viper everyday to work (until I retired) as long as it wasn't snowing. If it snowed (which actually doesn't happen too often here) I would pull out my Wrangler. Driving the Viper everyday was a thrill for me and almost everyone that saw it.

This is becoming more true by the day. Porsche did a fine job of keeping the 911 shape relevant over the years, and it worked while everyone else was also somewhat caught in an era of stagnant design. But now, the new ideas are really flourishing. Aston's new design language is a perfect example -- I call it luxury sporty, a new direction for sports cars. Ford recently showed us that cars do not have to look like what we're used to. McLaren is also showing us the future, with 720S and Speedtail. Ferrari is getting on board and starting to think outside the box. So, 911 is unfortunately stuck between a rock and hard place. Sure, drive up with a brand new GT2RS and people want to check it out. Pull up in a Ruby GT3RS, and you're still relevant. But anything less than that, and your parking on the back row and nobody is walking over to check it out. Sad, but true.

Now, the Viper -- I honestly cannot explain it. It seems to have a very enduring appeal to it. The cars have been out of production going on two years now, but they still draw crowds. I think it's because they are perceived as raw beasts, that require skill, attention, and maturity to drive well. I think most kids have also probably watched the videos of TT Vipers annihilating everything out there, or built the car up in their Forza games. And yeah, it is a rare sight when you see one -- and every one you see is different.

You know all of this. So you also know this is the right decision. But again, give it 6 months to convince yourself if the devil on your shoulder is still in your ear.

[PittsburghRT]

I have an older 911 Turbo (2002) and prefer the Viper (2001) over it. Yes, I know the new cars are more refined than my old Porsche and Viper GTS. However, Porsche seems light years ahead of the Viper in technology even today. But, to me this makes the Porsche boring to drive and does not force you to really be in control. I got bored with my 911 not long after I bought it. I only keep it around because values have been climbing and eventually i'll cash out. I would keep the T/A and try the Porsche because you might like the Porsche or really regret selling the T/A later. I can see the 911 Turbo being a great everyday car even though I don't use mine in that way.

[sadil]

Keep the TA. There are only 30 like yours. Porsche’s are great but the 911 Turbo is not as exciting or as raw as some of the others. I’m surprised you are even considering selling the Viper. You are the one that has been bragging about it since day 1. The Turbo will let you down. Get a GT3 Touring with PDK. It’s more exciting than the Turbo and less hardcore than the regular GT3. Or wait and get the new Vette which should be available soon.

[dewilmoth]

Get a GT3 Touring with PDK.

Doesn’t exist.

[Bruce H.]

Thanks to everyone for sharing your thoughts and suggestions!

My last buying decision in late 2013 came down to choosing between the TA and 911 GT3. They were track competitors, with similar performance but different personalities, and I'm sure I could have been equally happy with either. But 5 years later I wouldn't want one because I've already got those particular bases covered. If I buy something new I would want it to cover those bases and some new ones. The other cars suggested instead of the Turbo S don't offer the luggage capacity for our long distance touring and track destinations, and an ACR would actually need to be trailered which would kill the road trip fun part for us.


Hi my good friend Bruce,
As you know that I have both a TA2 and a 991.2 Turbo S Cabrio, and we've done some lapping together and you loved the ride in the Turbo at Tremblant 2 years ago. So I say YES get a Turbo S for all the good reasons as it's a great all around performer that you can use all year long, comfortable when cruising, tough track car, even on the Dragstrip as mine did a 10.58 quarter mile all stock. All that this car desperately needs is a better sounding exhaust and you're done with.
But do NOT sell the TA as you will definitely regret it down the road. As much as I love the Turbo, the Viper is the car that comes out when I get the itch for a real car ride with it's Badass look, row your own gears, menacing sound and it's the only car that brings out all the emotions in me. To me the Turbo is like the great race horse at the Kentucky derby but the Viper is the one at the Rodeo show.

Hey Claude! I guess it's obvious that your's left a lasting impression on me! Brutal performance and all wrapped in a thoroughly modern and super high quality all-weather package. What's not to like... the exhaust as you and many others over at Rennlist mention. Are you going to do the exhaust on yours, and don't you think that would be a big improvement in the emotion dept? And keep in mind that the drive with a loud exhaust to Tremblant is 7 hours each way for me, and VIR and Road America are 14, and Road Atlanta is 20 and.....you get the idea. And a 5 minute fuel stop and stretch turns into 20 after discussing the car with those that swarm and photograph it. And Deb makes sure parents get a picture of the kids sitting in it! Sometimes I might like to visit the rodeo rather than be in it :)


I’m surprised you are even considering selling the Viper. You are the one that has been bragging about it since day 1.

Well I'm surprised I'm even considering keeping it since when I was buying the TA the plan was to sell it after 4 or 5 years and jump into something new and wonderful for the next 4 or 5 years!

I haven't been bragging at all...all I've done is shared my considerable and hugely positive experiences with the TA for others to benefit from. I can't help it if they go out and buy one and then shout from the mountain tops that it's the most awesome thing ever!

[Bruce H.]

Are you going to do the exhaust on yours, and don't you think that would be a big improvement in the emotion dept?

Here's one with an exhaust and 700 hp to test the emotions :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xExhtqat63E

[plumcrazy]

bruce, IIRC havent you left viper and come back already ? you will definitely do it again if so

[Bruce H.]

bruce, IIRC havent you left viper and come back already ? you will definitely do it again if so

Not I, this was my first!

[ViperSmith]

I am looking for a new toy. I'd love to get an ACR, but I don't trust Dodge's ability to produce replacement parts - well I don't trust Dodge at all.

Looking at a 570s. A 911 turbo S would be fun, but for a stupid fast car it just doesn't excite me. I live 10 miles from a McLaren dealer (was 1 until they moved) - so that also feeds into the leaning that way.

[swexlin]

570 S is the shiznitt. A friend of mine has one. Another friend has a 720. I like the 570 better.

I'd pick up a gently used one in a heartbeat if I could afford it.

[Scott_in_fl]

Not I, this was my first!

And that is precisely the reason why you are contemplating the switch. Had you already done this, you would have realized the error of your ways and would not consider it a second time.

You might reach out to PDV who sold his '16 ACR-E with VE Stage II kit to jump into a 570S. I haven't checked in with him lately, but I've driven the Mcars and know that he would be honest about telling you what you're giving up by selling the T/A.

But I also know human nature, because I've been there and done that -- more so with motorcycles than cars, but the analysis is the same. There were 2 bikes that were special editions that I knew I should not have sold and still regret it today (I actually hunt around for them every so often to try to buy them back -- at hugely inflated prices if I could find them). I've learned my lesson, but I understand that others have to learn theirs :)

[pdv25]

And that is precisely the reason why you are contemplating the switch. Had you already done this, you would have realized the error of your ways and would not consider it a second time.

You might reach out to PDV who sold his '16 ACR-E with VE Stage II kit to jump into a 570S. I haven't checked in with him lately, but I've driven the Mcars and know that he would be honest about telling you what you're giving up by selling the T/A.

But I also know human nature, because I've been there and done that -- more so with motorcycles than cars, but the analysis is the same. There were 2 bikes that were special editions that I knew I should not have sold and still regret it today (I actually hunt around for them every so often to try to buy them back -- at hugely inflated prices if I could find them). I've learned my lesson, but I understand that others have to learn theirs :)

I've had the 570 for 6 months now, WOW it has been interesting. I'll give the good and the bad. The car has some glitches. The simplest things don't work right all the time. Example the AC sometimes stays on when i turn off the car, The radio switches stations by itself, The volume control goes up when I want it to go down, the iris screen is VERY lagy etc....Its been to the dealer 3 times already trying to fix these issues. The best one was, when it left me stranded one night. The doors wouldn't open and had to get it towed.

They call this Mclaren life!

Now for the good. Performance wise it's awesome. Very fast for the mods I have. It sounds amazing after I did the full exhaust. Sounds similar to a TT lambo.

Since this thread is about a Turbo S. Here is a race I had. The Porsche has Bigger turbos, on Race gas and Meth. Very fast car. It ran 9.5@145. My car has full exhaust, tune, drop in filters and is on 93 pump. Race was 40-160. He pulled me by half car.

Must admit I do miss the ACR. I wanted to experience a so called super car/exotic since I had the chance to do so. To bad i can't turn back time!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ4DUrnXTU0

[06SRTCoupe]

I know this is about a new Porsche 911 RS but...

If you want to save some cash, how about a gently used GTR? Bolt-ons and good fuel and you are well over 650whp. AWD, and a track beast in its own right. 10's of thousands cheaper than a new 911. Could easily keep the TA and also have a car that you can drive year round and hold it's own against all the other cars on any track.

[ACR Steve]

Keep the Viper for track day . Turbo while yes its fast is not as engaging on track. Also all wheel drive tends to make it under-steer a lot. I have tracked many turbos its a great car for a intermediate driver that wants a straight line fast car to make up for there bad braking and cornering ability. No wheres near as rewarding as your TA on track and no wheres near as fast as an ACR. The turbo however to me is the best everyday driver. Easy to drive ,very fast and very reliable

No offence to anyone I am much a Porsche guy as a Viper guy

[ViperJon]

I love the 570's but man those renowned McLaren electrical glitches are legendary....and scary if the car is almost out of warranty.

[ViperGeorge]

The McLarens are beautiful, fast cars with a lot of issues. Surprising that for such an expensive car there are so many issues. They also don't seem to hold their value. I have a friend that has two. The first one, a 6 something, has had a lot of problems. Fortunately he bought the extended warranty. He tells me the warranty company has spent over $100K on repairs under that warranty.

[pdv25]

I love the 570's but man those renowned McLaren electrical glitches are legendary....and scary if the car is almost out of warranty.

I would not own one without warranty. NO WAY!

[Scott_in_fl]

I've had the 570 for 6 months now, WOW it has been interesting. I'll give the good and the bad. The car has some glitches. The simplest things don't work right all the time. Example the AC sometimes stays on when i turn off the car, The radio switches stations by itself, The volume control goes up when I want it to go down, the iris screen is VERY lagy etc....Its been to the dealer 3 times already trying to fix these issues. The best one was, when it left me stranded one night. The doors wouldn't open and had to get it towed.

They call this Mclaren life!

Now for the good. Performance wise it's awesome. Very fast for the mods I have. It sounds amazing after I did the full exhaust. Sounds similar to a TT lambo.

Since this thread is about a Turbo S. Here is a race I had. The Porsche has Bigger turbos, on Race gas and Meth. Very fast car. It ran 9.5@145. My car has full exhaust, tune, drop in filters and is on 93 pump. Race was 40-160. He pulled me by half car.

Must admit I do miss the ACR. I wanted to experience a so called super car/exotic since I had the chance to do so. To bad i can't turn back time!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ4DUrnXTU0

I think this video shows what everyone is saying. When I first played it, I did not realize that it was on mute. By the time I figured that out, the video was over and I was like "what, there was a race there???". Then I added the sound, and at least I could tell they were racing.

The point is that there is zero excitement going on in that cockpit for the 911 driver (and probably for Paul in the Mac). The race starts and the guy looks like he's going for a cruise. I suppose that's what you get when all you do is press the pedal. Compare this video to Paul's other videos from his ACR days.

Is it me, or do the older videos just look like so much more fun?

[TT32VGT]

tough choice.. totally different cars..
don't expect to get anywhere near the attention in the turbo s

[TT32VGT]

every 570 owner ive tlked to has complained abt electrical problems.. I don't live anywhere near a McLaren dealership so ill never get one .
I love my gtr and viper, but would love a huracan or turbo s.. my pops has both and they are incredible cars

[Bruce H.]

Keep the Viper for track day . Turbo while yes its fast is not as engaging on track. Also all wheel drive tends to make it under-steer a lot. I have tracked many turbos its a great car for a intermediate driver that wants a straight line fast car to make up for there bad braking and cornering ability. No wheres near as rewarding as your TA on track and no wheres near as fast as an ACR. The turbo however to me is the best everyday driver. Easy to drive ,very fast and very reliable

No offence to anyone I am much a Porsche guy as a Viper guy

I don't know Steve, you might be selling the latest Turbo S a bit short! Randy Pobst thought it was pretty amazing, and maybe the fastest he's ever driven the corkscrew at Laguna Seca. Under-steer didn't seem to be a big issue, but I know some track guys swap the 245's for 265's for that reason...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRyeTxlvbe4

And some more of his pretty candid comments...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yon4cU1Q7rU

Gotta think that kind of performance could keep a guy happy!

[Bruce H.]

Well the decision to buy the Turbo S is made and I'll have to decide whether to keep the TA or not. With the up-coming sale of our lake house with several garage spaces and a lift for the Viper during the winter months, and just having two spaces at our new home, it would definitely be easier to not have a summer only car.

If I could just winter drive the TA on nice days like this photo of SilvRT8's TS I'd be all set!

35161

If I do decide to sell the TA it would be particularly tempting to sell it privately and do a courtesy sale through the Porsche dealer to save our 13% sales tax on the value of the car. So if anyone is interested in a very well maintained one owner TA just PM me for info. Nice story of working directly with SRT and how it came to be the only black '14 Cdn spec TA, they even gave it a custom touch or two, and built it as the last of the 159. Warranty until 2021, good only in Canada.

Thanks for all the responses, and I agree completely...the Viper is totally unique, and there will never be anything like it again. We're a fortunate bunch to have been able to experience them and own a piece of history.

Bruce

[swexlin]

Wow. and congrats. Bruce, you have been the number 1 Viper supporter, even with all its QC issues. You know I have a love/hate relationship with my car, and sometimes have not been complimentary with what I consider unacceptable on a car at this level.

You have been the opposite, and have helped many owners on this forum. I hope you decide to keep your TA.

Scott

[Bruce H.]

Wow. and congrats. Bruce, you have been the number 1 Viper supporter, even with all its QC issues. You know I have a love/hate relationship with my car, and sometimes have not been complimentary with what I consider unacceptable on a car at this level.

You have been the opposite, and have helped many owners on this forum. I hope you decide to keep your TA.

Scott

I appreciate that...thank you very much. The Gen 5 certainly wasn't spared some early production issues but beyond that they got them pretty well sorted. I had some really minor things on mine that were quickly and painlessly taken care of. I just can't fault the car, and it is so incredibly mechanically robust and under-stressed that it will surely stand up to very high mileage. The issues pdv25 mentioned about the McLaren are typical of some other low production brands and that's almost the norm for hand built cars it seems, making the Gen V seem more like a Lexus! The car was and is an absolute anomaly considering price, styling, performance, quality, durability, rarity, and the consumable costs are really low for those that drive them a lot. And it would seem all of that is being reflected in their resale values! Not sure what will come of mine as pressure to not add more vehicles is pretty high at home (and I won't name names!) but I'll always be a huge supporter of these great cars. Truly a success story even though it wasn't a commercial success for FCA.

[soltic]

Brucey being that I know you and know you like a certain comfort-level for long-distance driving (I never minded sore limbs and loose fillings), it doesn't make sense to me to have 2 that offer "similar" performance and comfort levels.

If you want both I would recommend one gets modified heavily to be more track-centric for Mosport or other local tracks that wouldn't bother you in a long-distance driving level.

But again, being that I do know you and we both share the keep-it-simple mentality (thus don't like to modify too much) - why not get the Porsche and buy something more ACR-X like but street legal for local pounding that someone else has already sorted well??

Rod

[sadil]

Well I'm surprised I'm even considering keeping it since when I was buying the TA the plan was to sell it after 4 or 5 years and jump into something new and wonderful for the next 4 or 5 years!

I haven't been bragging at all...all I've done is shared my considerable and hugely positive experiences with the TA for others to benefit from. I can't help it if they go out and buy one and then shout from the mountain tops that it's the most awesome thing ever!

Your words convinced me and I have not been disappointed!

[Stealth78]

I've got the new car itch and really the only new or newer car that appeals to me is the current 991.2 Porsche Turbo S. I'd like something that would extend our short northern driving season, at least be as great for weekend fun and long distance road trips as the TA has been, and of course still run with the fast guys at the odd track day! I've considered absolutely everything else and this 911 with AWD seems to fit the bill best. I drove one and while it's a hugely impressive and incredibly well-rounded sports car, it's rather lacking in what makes the Viper so special and such an event to own and drive.

So it's this emotional deficit that makes the 911 vs TA decision so difficult. If I let the TA go I know I'll regret it, and have been told I'll be hunting for one again within 2 years, and if I keep it and get the 911 then neither will see much use as I barely seem to have the opportunity to drive the TA as it is. My daily uses mostly requires a truck.

Who else has found themselves in this dilemma, and what advice can you offer? Is life worth living after parting with the Viper, and can you ever love another car as much again? There's really no pressing need to let the TA go, even has warranty until 2021, but I'm afraid if I keep it that it'll get driven about 6 times a year and I couldn't bare to do that to the car and would rather see a new owner fall in love with it.

Decisions, decisions. Any happy Turbo S owners out there that enjoy their's on track the odd time?

Bruce

Bruce, I see there has been a ton of great feedback but here's my take. You bought a Viper TA brand new and at the time the car was the pinnacle of performance and rivaled if not beat cars far more expensive. It pains me to say but your comment about two years out I feel will diminish. At the alarming rate of vehicle enhancements and this epic horsepower war that all manufactures seem to be gunning for, by time the 2021 models are rolling out the 640/645HP Vipers are going to become as average in power as the current 5.0 Mustangs. I love the Viper and I do agree that it is an amazing all around car, I simply feel that in two years from now the Viper is going to be very lackluster in the power department. I never thought I would say that about a 645HP car, especially growing up in the 1980's when 220HP seemed incredible. We are now seeing 797HP Challengers, 1,000HP crate engines that I bet will find their way into production cars by 2021, even if they're detuned for emissions and making a measly 900HP, lol! Ford and Chevy are both going to be rolling out 800HP+ cars at that time too. The GenV Viper will always be an amazing car but for an individual like yourself who has had the king of the hill at one point will likely never look back. Keep your fingers crossed, there will likely be whispers of a GenVI by time 2021 rolls around!

[mikesax]

Congrats Bruce! Enjoy your new "ride"!

[ViperSmith]

turbo S is an awesome car. enjoy

[ViperSmith]

The McLarens are beautiful, fast cars with a lot of issues. Surprising that for such an expensive car there are so many issues. They also don't seem to hold their value. I have a friend that has two. The first one, a 6 something, has had a lot of problems. Fortunately he bought the extended warranty. He tells me the warranty company has spent over $100K on repairs under that warranty.



I would not own one without warranty. NO WAY!

yeah there is no way on gods green earth I'd own a mac out of warranty. 3 year lease is only way i'd do it. fuck 36 months is a long time to have a car.

[Rizzo]

The Porsche 911 T would be an amazing car. I've driven one and its nice and its fast and its cute.... BUT... thats the problem. Its cute and boring to look at and there are a million of them on the road and nobody can tell the difference between a 1999 or a 2019.. LOL.. I had a 911 C4 for a year and as soon as I bought it I realized I made a mistake. I got no enjoyment from looking at it and it was so smooth and quiet and boring to drive. It was like driving a Honda. It would be a great daily driver but when you drive the Viper its an event. When you drive a Porsche its about as exciting as watching paint dry. haha.. If you can afford both do it but if you are only going to keep 1 I would stick with the Viper.

The only upside to driving the Porsche is that you take it anywhere and not worry people will be crawling all over it. You can go to Costco or out to a movie or out to dinner etc. I was never comfortable leaving the Vipers anywhere as they drew a lot of attention. I have a Gallardo now and its a circus act every time you go out. If you leave it somewhere inevitably you have a crowd around it when you come back. Trips to the gas stations are events and people will literally chase you down to ask questions about it. Its not a fun car to drive if you want to just be left alone and blend in. haha. With the Porsche that will NOT be a problem. In 1 year of driving mine I literally got 1 thumbs up while driving it. With the Viper you will get more thumbs up and comments in 10 mins of driving than you will with a Porsche in a month. :D

[Bruce H.]

Brucey being that I know you and know you like a certain comfort-level for long-distance driving (I never minded sore limbs and loose fillings), it doesn't make sense to me to have 2 that offer "similar" performance and comfort levels.

If you want both I would recommend one gets modified heavily to be more track-centric for Mosport or other local tracks that wouldn't bother you in a long-distance driving level.

But again, being that I do know you and we both share the keep-it-simple mentality (thus don't like to modify too much) - why not get the Porsche and buy something more ACR-X like but street legal for local pounding that someone else has already sorted well??

Rod

Hey Rod, you're totally right, it doesn't make sense. Having the versatility of a DD all weather AWD car does, and after this winter I won't need my AWD truck for hauling stuff so I can at least eliminate that one and drive Deb's SUV on the odd day I have to venture out on an ice and snow blizzard day. I used to be into mods and chasing fastest laps years ago but now I'm quite happy to be 2nd fastest, behind all my ACR-E friends :) Having a dedicated track car now just isn't for me so that's not an option. I did measure up the coach house today for a lift and I think I can make one work so I could get the TA and 911 in on one side and Deb would still have the other side. Happy wife, happy life!



Your words convinced me and I have not been disappointed!

That's awesome. Now put it on a track and prepare to be thrilled :)


You bought a Viper TA brand new and at the time the car was the pinnacle of performance and rivaled if not beat cars far more expensive. It pains me to say but your comment about two years out I feel will diminish. At the alarming rate of vehicle enhancements and this epic horsepower war that all manufactures seem to be gunning for, by time the 2021 models are rolling out the 640/645HP Vipers are going to become as average in power as the current 5.0 Mustangs. I love the Viper and I do agree that it is an amazing all around car, I simply feel that in two years from now the Viper is going to be very lackluster in the power department.

Adding power won't excite me as doing that seems to mean adding more weight and larger gaping openings for cooling, and more braking and tire grip issues. Now reducing weight while improving cooling and adding active aero to reduce drag would excite me!


Congrats Bruce! Enjoy your new "ride"!


turbo S is an awesome car. enjoy

Thanks guys, will probably hold off buying until the spring.


The Porsche 911 T would be an amazing car. I've driven one and its nice and its fast and its cute.... BUT... thats the problem. Its cute and boring to look at and there are a million of them on the road and nobody can tell the difference between a 1999 or a 2019.. LOL.. I had a 911 C4 for a year and as soon as I bought it I realized I made a mistake. I got no enjoyment from looking at it and it was so smooth and quiet and boring to drive. It was like driving a Honda. It would be a great daily driver but when you drive the Viper its an event. When you drive a Porsche its about as exciting as watching paint dry. haha.. If you can afford both do it but if you are only going to keep 1 I would stick with the Viper.

The only upside to driving the Porsche is that you take it anywhere and not worry people will be crawling all over it. You can go to Costco or out to a movie or out to dinner etc. I was never comfortable leaving the Vipers anywhere as they drew a lot of attention. I have a Gallardo now and its a circus act every time you go out. If you leave it somewhere inevitably you have a crowd around it when you come back. Trips to the gas stations are events and people will literally chase you down to ask questions about it. Its not a fun car to drive if you want to just be left alone and blend in. haha. With the Porsche that will NOT be a problem. In 1 year of driving mine I literally got 1 thumbs up while driving it. With the Viper you will get more thumbs up and comments in 10 mins of driving than you will with a Porsche in a month. :D

I also used to be pretty bored with the 911 shape and seeing so many around but it's grown on me. I'd be okay without being a spectacle everywhere I drive and the truck I use 95% of the time is definitely boring so you're not doing a very good job of talking me out of the 911. lol.

Bruce

[TT32VGT]

You can make 911s stand out, just have to get a good color and a nice set of wheels..

Here’s my dads turbo s and 997 tip

35166


35167

[Bruce H.]

Wow, that blue is really striking! Not available on the 991`s unfortunately.

[cashcorn]

Yeah, that blue with those wheels is a great combo! What exactly is that car? thanks. Bruce, I get your point! lol

[ViperSmith]

Wow, that blue is really striking! Not available on the 991`s unfortunately.

if you aren't buying now, at least do a few customizations and order one!

[Bruce H.]

I've got a '19 spec'd out!

[Bruce H.]

Yeah, that blue with those wheels is a great combo! What exactly is that car? thanks. Bruce, I get your point! lol

Body style is the 997 generation, and says it's a Turbo S so 2010-2013 vintage.

[TT32VGT]

Wow, that blue is really striking! Not available on the 991`s unfortunately.
I believe you can order in any color you want ;)

[TT32VGT]

Yeah, that blue with those wheels is a great combo! What exactly is that car? thanks. Bruce, I get your point! lol
Those were advs now he has the same finish but hre new design. It has a evt 600 kit on it and is a tiptronic. Very fun and quick car around town.

[GTSilver]

Keep the TA but if you insist on getting a 911 get a 991.2 GT3 manual, the 991 turbo is a fun car but very heavy and more of a touring car it wont be as fun on track. BTW the new 911 will premiere this month at the LA auto show and the newer turbo will follow a year after

[Bruce H.]

GT3's are quick and fun but it takes a GT3RS to keep up with the Turbo S and the TA. Can't go backwards, lol! And besides, I'd like to try something stealth, especially if I end of keeping the TA! Being a turbo it responds particularly well to mods and then they go hunting ACR's. Interesting note...I was concerned about their CCB longevity and one owner put 30 hard track days on his before trading it, no reduced pad wear that he noticed, and the rotors still passed the CPO inspection for the extended warranty.

I hear it won't be shown in Dec in LA, the Turbo won't follow for 2 years, and they've already got so many orders for them I probably couldn't get one 3 years!

Bruce

[dewilmoth]

I don’t understand the infatuation with the MT in the GT3. The PDK is a phenomenal transmission, and makes way more sense in a high RPM close ratio drivetrain like the GT3. The Gen V is already the best MT car ever built IMO, so for me, I’d want something that compliments as opposed to competes.

[Bruce H.]

I've loved the MT forever in various sports cars over the years but for a DD or track day car it's really past its prime for most new car buyers, with DCT technology now leading the way. I think it would always be my first choice for a weekend fun car.

[ViperDC]

Nice Porsche. It's so much better of a car than a Viper it's not even funny. The Viper has its charm and is more exotic but you made the right call IMO

[Bruce H.]

The better car really always comes down to how you plan to use it and a bunch of personal preferences. With these two they are so massively different in what they were designed and intended for and how most would use them. For us the appeal of the Turbo S comes down to being able to drive it through the winter on snows on clear days, but not in a blizzard or right after a major snow fall. I'm starting to seriously wonder if I keep the TA whether I'd just choose to drive, track and enjoy it for a few summer months and then switch back to the 911.

The re and re procedure and tools required for the P-car's center lock wheels, fragile PCCB rotors that can get chipped removing a wheel, relatively short lifespan of brake pads on track, and having to remove the calipers just to swap the brake pads all sound like a royal PITA compared to the Viper which couldn't be easier. And if I keep the Viper I probably wouldn't feel the need to modify the 911, but if I let the TA go I'd have to go nuts on the 911 to try to recreate more of the Viper's persona and appeal. This is not going to be easy!

[ViperGeorge]

The better car really always comes down to how you plan to use it and a bunch of personal preferences. With these two they are so massively different in what they were designed and intended for and how most would use them. For us the appeal of the Turbo S comes down to being able to drive it through the winter on snows on clear days, but not in a blizzard or right after a major snow fall. I'm starting to seriously wonder if I keep the TA whether I'd just choose to drive, track and enjoy it for a few summer months and then switch back to the 911.

The re and re procedure and tools required for the P-car's center lock wheels, fragile PCCB rotors that can get chipped removing a wheel, relatively short lifespan of brake pads on track, and having to remove the calipers just to swap the brake pads all sound like a royal PITA compared to the Viper which couldn't be easier. And if I keep the Viper I probably wouldn't feel the need to modify the 911, but if I let the TA go I'd have to go nuts on the 911 to try to recreate more of the Viper's persona and appeal. This is not going to be easy!

You've answered your own question. Keep the TA and buy the Turbo S for the winter.

[Bruce H.]

You've answered your own question. Keep the TA and buy the Turbo S for the winter.

Yeah, winter beater! Maybe put a snow plow on it so I can clear the driveway, lol :)

[ViperDC]

The better car really always comes down to how you plan to use it and a bunch of personal preferences. With these two they are so massively different in what they were designed and intended for and how most would use them. For us the appeal of the Turbo S comes down to being able to drive it through the winter on snows on clear days, but not in a blizzard or right after a major snow fall. I'm starting to seriously wonder if I keep the TA whether I'd just choose to drive, track and enjoy it for a few summer months and then switch back to the 911.

The re and re procedure and tools required for the P-car's center lock wheels, fragile PCCB rotors that can get chipped removing a wheel, relatively short lifespan of brake pads on track, and having to remove the calipers just to swap the brake pads all sound like a royal PITA compared to the Viper which couldn't be easier. And if I keep the Viper I probably wouldn't feel the need to modify the 911, but if I let the TA go I'd have to go nuts on the 911 to try to recreate more of the Viper's persona and appeal. This is not going to be easy!

after spending time in both cars, just the difference in build quality alone makes it hard to get back into a viper. that being said the build quality on both is light years better than my 70 Challenger but the Challenger still draws you in differently so I get your point.

IMO, youre not getting rid of your viper and clearly in love with it so why make this thread? unless you can't afford both just keep it. you cant seem to talk up your TA enough

[ViperGeorge]

Yeah, winter beater! Maybe put a snow plow on it so I can clear the driveway, lol :)

A set of chains would also do wonders. :D

[Elganja]

if you can swing it, keep both-- while not in the exact same shoes as you, we have an R8 in addition to our Viper and they compliment each other very well

such different beasts, it's refreshing when jumping from one car to the other -- i wouldn't trade it for the world

[Terminator02]

The obvious answer is to keep the viper for all the reasons you love the car Bruce. Correct me if I am wrong but it seems as if you are struggling with the idea of having both cars and not having enough time to drive both and selling one for extra space due to an upcoming move and risk regretting the sale? If so, I think it's making the decision harder because then you get statements like when you referenced how you have to have a car that will compete with the TA or better "I can't go backwards." So here's my take.

The TurboS is probably the best go fast daily car ever. From the build tolerances to overall engineering, quality and feel. You will have your touring car that will feel significantly better than the viper to cruise in as far as comfort is concerned and you will have blisteringly fast acceleration. You will however, no matter what, lose that manual transmission, raw input and exotic looking viper. So if it truly comes down to having a touring car that can be fast around the track as well than the P car fits the bill. As amazing as the Mclaren 720s is, it's biggest complaint is the civility of it when not doing 9 second stop light runs. It's quiet and rather sterile. Not that online publications are an authority of truth, but as a reference to my point is that the Performante beat the 720s not on performance but that it is more engaging to drive. There's not much more engaging or more raw and uncivil than the Dodge Viper. I say all of that because you promoted the touring of the viper and it's overall comfort pretty regularly so why not have your cake and eat it to by either keeping both cars or sell the viper and get a used GT3 RS, performante or other car that would beat the TA around the track and while you will read about lack of comfort online, after coming from the viper, you will probably find it is more comfortable to drive around! Or get the TurboS and a Shelby GT350 or Gen 2 Viper while selling your TA so you feel a bit less guilty in the rare instance one just happens to be sitting.

[Scott_in_fl]

^^^ Great post that really highlights the differences here. If you want comfort, refinement, luxury, and speed in one package, the 911TT is tough to beat.

But, there are many like it -- just about every other current sports car in the $200k+ range -- all are dual clutch autos, most are TT, most are 6-cylinder, most can perform double or triple duty as daily driver (even in winter), track beast/canyon carver, and date night showpiece. Among the 720S, 650S, 570S, Huracan, 911TT, GT3RS, NSX, R8 V10, etc., is any one of them much better than the other? Maybe. Each has strengths/weaknesses and each will offer more comfort, looks, luxury, and performance (some of them) than the Viper.

But if the experience of driving the Viper is what you loved about it, then I don't see how you replicate it. I'm reminded every time I drive my car why it is so great and it has nothing to do with how comfortable it is or how easily it drives.

Thus I agree with the prior posts that a complementary car might be great. But giving up the Viper for one must mean that you have prioritized the driving experience differently than the rest of us.

[Eachey51]

Not that I agree with the outcome, but it is a direct comparison

https://youtu.be/bmhlqsgkB5w

[Bruce H.]

I'm glad to see some real appreciation for the Porsche...and the difficulty in possibly having to choose between them. And that difficulty comes down to being able to afford both but not being able to justify having both. As of next year I'll probably only have the need to drive one or the other a couple of times a week. I always planned to sell the TA after maybe 4 years and would plan to do the same with the Porsche. Always something new and exciting to experience. Change it up every now and then, right?

Well about a month ago I experienced severe TA separation anxiety when I was approached and asked if I'd like to sell the TA. It was the perfect time because I had decided I wanted to get the Porsche. The buyer had always wanted a TA, he'd have really looked after it, we agreed on a price, and I immediately started regretting even entertaining selling it. We both decided not to complete the transaction which made it a lot easier and I called the Porsche dealer to say forget it.

But I had got excited about the year-round versatility of the Porsche, reinforced by having to put the TA in winter storage a couple of weeks ago, and then I starting this thread a couple of days after that. Garage space at our new home next year will be a serious issue that I'll have to scramble to resolve, and if I build a 2nd garage I'll be spending a lot more than if I sold the TA.

But the inescapable fact is that I have never had as much fun in any of the many previous special cars as I've had in 4 years with the TA. I simply can not fault this car. What some reviewers have criticized are some of the car's most endearing features. And in many ways the 911 Turbo is the opposite, which is both good and concerning for what I'll be missing. I just wish I could justify both...but I've pretty much come to the point of realizing that I'm just going to have to find a way to.

Quick story. One of the fastest and most capably driven Porsches I've had the pleasure of tracking with over many years was a 991.1 Turbo S about 3 years ago. It was serious work to apply the required pressure to fill this fellow's mirrors and get the required pass-by signal. And if he didn't lift off the gas I'd have never been able to make the pass. We met and chatted afterwards and it was a bone stock car, but he had an incredible level of annual pro instruction from a Porsche racer driver friend of his, one week each year. Anyways, next track day we were back and didn't I find he was filling my mirrors! WTF. So naturally I get focused and prepare to see him slowly disappear from sight. Not a chance, he was all over me and I let him by. In the paddock I asked what had changed and he told me he had installed new lighter weight wheels with Sport Cup tires instead of the low rent P-Zeros! Wow. And this was a 991.1 and power and handling are both up in the current 991.2. So I'm pretty sure that I won't have to give up too much fun at the track.

Thanks for all your responses guys, it's pretty clear what you think I should do...and I probably will :)

Bruce

[Matt Dillon]

Nice Porsche. It's so much better of a car than a Viper it's not even funny. The Viper has its charm and is more exotic but you made the right call IMO

Lol, So WHY do you own the Viper? SMDH

[Scott_in_fl]

Matt, he owns a Gen IV which somewhat skews his perception of fit/finish/quality, etc. v. a new 911TTS.

I've owned both makes, and multiple gens, and I see his point when I recall my Gen III coupe. It was terrific, but definitely felt a bit "cheap" compared to a similar year 911.

Obviously, I think the Gen V is fantastic and although it may still give away a little to a current year 911 in those areas, the differential is now so damn close that it's no longer significant to me (whereas in the past it definitely was). I have no problem inviting Pcar, Mcar or Fcar owners for a ride in the ACR. And everyone comments on how nicely done the car is. I'm sure your experience is similar.

[Flash Gordon]

Another vote for keeping both. Totally different driving experiences. Only car I miss more than my Viper was the old school 930 beater - which come to think of it , was basically a P-Viper compared to the new stuff... :lol2:

[PkB2014]

Yeah, winter beater! Maybe put a snow plow on it so I can clear the driveway, lol :)

We will need pics of this mod! 😁

[SilveRT8]

Hey Bruce,
Get a lift in the new house....and keep both !

[Bruce H.]

We will need pics of this mod! ��

If it can do this in the snow it looks promising to me!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvOfJFh7qXM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvOfJFh7qXM

[Bruce H.]

Hey Bruce,
Get a lift in the new house....and keep both !

I was out measuring it up for one last week! Order goes in next week for a build in the April-June production period. Should receive by July at the latest.

Deb getting rather firm about me selling the TA but I'll get the lift either way for winter storage with snowblower, patio furniture and whatever underneath it.

[TrackAire]

I was out measuring it up for one last week! Order goes in next week for a build in the April-June production period. Should receive by July at the latest.

Deb getting rather firm about me selling the TA but I'll get the lift either way for winter storage with snowblower, patio furniture and whatever underneath it.

Sounds like you're going to have a great time in the Porsche, enjoy it with Deb!!

Here is the issue with selling "track cars" that you've enjoyed.....every track car I've sold, I've had sellers remorse. I've always sold a track cars to move up to a better (IMO) track car. But what I sell are also the memories and fun I had with car. I almost wish I could keep my past track cars as something to just look at...like a piece art or a sculpture, take it out once in a while, let friends borrow it for track days, etc. When track friends come over now and we discuss past track events, etc....we always come back to talking about how much fun our past track cars were and the memories they provided. All of my best car memories are from track events....kind of crazy when you think about it.

I sold a very cool 1999 Mustang GT that was made into a Cobra R clone and built with all the mods to make it handle and stop on the track. It looked the part, handled great and was dead reliable no matter what the summer temps.....then again, it had under 300 hp, lol. But the car was fast for what it was, both my kids learned to drive a manual transmission in it, my son tracked it, friends would would barrow it and we always had a great story at the end of the day with the old Mustang. I have become friends with the guy that bought my Mustang and about every 6 months I contact him so see if he wants to sell the car back to me. Every time he says no way. Even if I never drive it again, just looking at it parked in its place next to my other cars would make me feel good. Most people don't have the luxury of extra space for this, but for now I have the space at my work. So if I kept the Mustang I'd have a Viper, Vette and Mustang just sitting there (all of which I barely drive on the street), not including all my other non track vehicles.

And you know what, I'd have a great big smile every time I walked past them. Life is short, if something puts a smile on your face and provides a happy memory I'm good with that.

I know there is a lot of financial value difference between a Viper TA and an old Mustang.....but if you can afford to keep it and have the space, I vote to let it keep the Porsche company.

Cheers,
George

[Bruce H.]

Hey George,

I share those same feelings and passions that you so nicely put into words. I don't think I could become so attached to a car that I hadn't tracked...that's how and where the bond is made and treasured.

And I've become a close friend to the buyer of my Supra TT and MR2T...and more recently been his driving coach as he's getting into tracking both! So I've started making all new memories with those cars but don't have to garage them! He'd like to take my TA also but is working on his relationship with the others first. He knows he'd have to part with one of them, most practically that would be the Supra, and he won't be ready to do that probably for years...took me 14 years to be exact!

Cheers,

Bruce

[Bruce H.]

Well guys, I ordered the '19 Turbo S today and it should arrive by the end of July next year. Deb would really like me to not start collecting cars again so I have agreed to sell the TA. I can arrange a private sale and run the paperwork through the Porsche dealer in order to save our 13% sales tax on the value of the TA. That would be a significant tax savings if I have a buyer lined up any time prior to taking delivery of the new car. So I'm motivated to find a buyer by July. And if I don't have a buyer by that time I think that will be a sign from above that I should maybe keep the TA forever...and I'm good with that too :)

I spec'd this one to draw minimal attention, and I personally think it would look pretty good parked next to the TA, or next to the pit wall!

35360

35361


Bruce

[J TNT]

Congratulations Bruce , nice ride !
Fingers crossed the Viper Gods have you keeping both ! ;)

[Bruce H.]

Thanks Jay!

[ky13]

Wowza! Both cars are gorgeous haha. Congrats!

[TA Two Oh]

Back to the twin turbo six config, eh buddy? This time with scads more power than your breathed-on Supra. Congratulations on making a great choice for you and Deb. All-weather capability, smooth and comfortable for the long trips, tons of room for your gear, easy to see out of -particularly clipping points thanks to the low, short hood and, impressive build quality. As a bonus, it'll be far, far easier to find tires; plenty of OE tires in stock at dealers and tire warehouses, and lots of choice if you decide to stray from the N1's that Porsche recommends.

Plus, you'll get a kick out of telling everyone that your weapon is now three inches longer. (Most folks think that Vipers are huge and heavy while Porsches are small and light... neither myth is accurate In this case.)

Let me know if you need help finding a torque wrench for those fancy wheels, I have a good source.

I'm really looking forward to hearing your -always detailed, expert- track feedback on the new ride! Lap time comparisons between the P car and the TA will be particularly interesting. My guess is that you'll quickly get comfortable in the Porsche and will lap very close to what you've been running in the Viper, even on the new car's milder P Zeros. On a long legged track like Utah Motorsports Campus, the Porsche might edge out the TA? You'll certainly never tire of the acceleration... it'll be hard not to laugh out loud every time you press the loud pedal!

Didn't take Euro delivery?

One last point, Bruce. Try not to spend More than 4 hours per day on Rennlist while you endure the long, painful wait until July.

[PkB2014]

Sounds like a plan Bruce. Your friends here in Viper land will gladly shit on any sales posts to dissuade potential buyers if you like. :)

GLWS....or not!

[TrackAire]

Back to the twin turbo six config, eh buddy? This time with scads more power than your breathed-on Supra. Congratulations on making a great choice for you and Deb. All-weather capability, smooth and comfortable for the long trips, tons of room for your gear, easy to see out of -particularly clipping points thanks to the low, short hood and, impressive build quality. As a bonus, it'll be far, far easier to find tires; plenty of OE tires in stock at dealers and tire warehouses, and lots of choice if you decide to stray from the N1's that Porsche recommends.

Plus, you'll get a kick out of telling everyone that your weapon is now three inches longer. (Most folks think that Vipers are huge and heavy while Porsches are small and light... neither myth is accurate In this case.)

Let me know if you need help finding a torque wrench for those fancy wheels, I have a good source.

I'm really looking forward to hearing your -always detailed, expert- track feedback on the new ride! Lap time comparisons between the P car and the TA will be particularly interesting. My guess is that you'll quickly get comfortable in the Porsche and will lap very close to what you've been running in the Viper, even on the new car's milder P Zeros. On a long legged track like Utah Motorsports Campus, the Porsche might edge out the TA? You'll certainly never tire of the acceleration... it'll be hard not to laugh out loud every time you press the loud pedal!

Didn't take Euro delivery?

One last point, Bruce. Try not to spend More than 4 hours per day on Rennlist while you endure the long, painful wait until July.

Rennlist has already added extra servers in anticipation of Bruce's new ride, lol!!

Enjoy your new beast Bruce!

[sharmut]

Congrats Bruce. GLWS

[Bruce H.]

Wowza! Both cars are gorgeous haha. Congrats!


Rennlist has already added extra servers in anticipation of Bruce's new ride, lol!!

Enjoy your new beast Bruce!


Congrats Bruce. GLWS

Thanks guys. And you're right George, Rennlist posts are up already!

[Cyabya]

When you selling the ta and what do you want for it?

[Bruce H.]

Back to the twin turbo six config, eh buddy? This time with scads more power than your breathed-on Supra. Congratulations on making a great choice for you and Deb. All-weather capability, smooth and comfortable for the long trips, tons of room for your gear, easy to see out of -particularly clipping points thanks to the low, short hood and, impressive build quality. As a bonus, it'll be far, far easier to find tires; plenty of OE tires in stock at dealers and tire warehouses, and lots of choice if you decide to stray from the N1's that Porsche recommends.

Plus, you'll get a kick out of telling everyone that your weapon is now three inches longer. (Most folks think that Vipers are huge and heavy while Porsches are small and light... neither myth is accurate In this case.)

Let me know if you need help finding a torque wrench for those fancy wheels, I have a good source.

I'm really looking forward to hearing your -always detailed, expert- track feedback on the new ride! Lap time comparisons between the P car and the TA will be particularly interesting. My guess is that you'll quickly get comfortable in the Porsche and will lap very close to what you've been running in the Viper, even on the new car's milder P Zeros. On a long legged track like Utah Motorsports Campus, the Porsche might edge out the TA? You'll certainly never tire of the acceleration... it'll be hard not to laugh out loud every time you press the loud pedal!

Didn't take Euro delivery?

One last point, Bruce. Try not to spend More than 4 hours per day on Rennlist while you endure the long, painful wait until July.

Doug,

Well I'd have to agree that adding 3" is a great choice for Deb and I, but did you have to tell everyone, lol!

I've been trying to imagine how it will be different on track. Randy P. set a 1:33:21 vs 1:33:62 for the TA around Laguna Seca but that's within range of it having just been the day and conditions. From what I can tell the Turbo could have a slight advantage under braking into a high speed corner but give up some to the TA at turn-in, advantage AWD Turbo from apex to exit with more grip under acceleration if its extra weight doesn't offset that, and maybe a wash on the straights where the TA has a better power to weight ratio but the Turbo's has the no lift DCT shifting advantage. But I already know that the earlier bone stock 991.1 version isn't a match for the TA when driven by a superior driver to myself, but the current 991.2 version is a couple of seconds faster than the old so I guess I'll just have to wait and see!

No Euro delivery, although we might have liked to, just too hard to plan ahead like that... and it also would have reduced my purchase discount by $3500.

Bruce

[Bruce H.]

Sounds like a plan Bruce. Your friends here in Viper land will gladly shit on any sales posts to dissuade potential buyers if you like. :)

GLWS....or not!

Haha...when I post it has over 10k miles on it I'm sure there will be a shit storm anyways!

[Bruce H.]

When you selling the ta and what do you want for it?

I'd ask that any inquiries be by PM or email, thanks.

And welcome to the forum!

[SharpMan]

Why does your wife care if you collect cars?

[Bruce H.]

Why does your wife care if you collect cars?

Space, simplifying our life, and a focus on purging things we don't need.

When I bought the TA in 2014 we had 3 houses, 6 vehicles and 7 garage spaces. Her plan must be working because in a few months we'll be down to 1 house, 3 vehicles and 3 garage spaces after I add a lift. The math works.

But I've thus far failed to present a logical argument for adding a Porsche and building another garage! After 40 years of numerous special interest cars laying around and seldom driven she seems to be on to my obsession!

Bruce

[38D]

Bruce, i’m A lifelong Porsche guy but there is no way I would trade a TA for a new turbo S if you plan to track it at all. The reason is simple: weight. The turbo S is a 4400lb whale. That’s 800-1000lb more than your TA. You will feel that weight in every corner and every braking zone. You’ll burn thru pads, rotors and tires at an absurd rate. You’ll go from having fun dicing it up with your friends, to the guy who dawdles thru the corners and rockets down the straight. Don’t be that guy; keep the TA.

I know you’ve made the decision, but until you take delivery, there is till plenty of time to back out!

[ForTehNguyen]

911TS are 3600-3700#, theres no way its 4400

I think youll wake up one day and regret letting the TA go

[Bruce H.]

Bruce, i’m A lifelong Porsche guy but there is no way I would trade a TA for a new turbo S if you plan to track it at all. The reason is simple: weight. The turbo S is a 4400lb whale. That’s 800-1000lb more than your TA. You will feel that weight in every corner and every braking zone. You’ll burn thru pads, rotors and tires at an absurd rate. You’ll go from having fun dicing it up with your friends, to the guy who dawdles thru the corners and rockets down the straight. Don’t be that guy; keep the TA.

I know you’ve made the decision, but until you take delivery, there is till plenty of time to back out!

The Turbo S actually weighs far less, under 3550 lbs as both claimed by Porsche and measured by a 3rd party. So only about 200 lbs more than a TA. Very impressive track reviews against everything out there including the GT3RS. All indications are that it'll run pretty comparable times to the TA so my ACR-E buddies will still be quicker :( You're right about consumables...the TA is incredibly easy on them.

But track dominance or cost isn't my main goal, it's being able to enjoy it year round in our Canadian climate, and the AWD P-car should be outstanding for that.

[Bruce H.]

911TS are 3600-3700#, theres no way its 4400

I think youll wake up one day and regret letting the TA go

There is absolutely no way to replace the Viper. No other analogue car matches its unique combination of virtues, at least at anywhere near its value. I'm quite certain if I don't sell it before the 911 comes in I probably won't sell it at all...and Deb's starting to come around to that distinct possibility :)

I'll just have to see how it all plays out, and in the meantime I keep picturing how I could add another garage and make it look good on the property ;)

1605 kgs /3538 lbs with a full tank of fuel, quite a lightweight compared to many it competes with on track.

http://www.thedrive.com/flat-six-society/8071/porsche-911-turbo-takes-on-acura-nsx-nissan-gt-r

[SSG]

Love the spec on the Turbo, very understated. Feel free to come back and share your thoughts/comparisons once it arrives!

[38D]

Doh, read the wrong line of the specs. Well I’d still keep the TA.

[Bruce]

Sold my TA over the weekend!!! It was a very difficult decision but since I recently got a 991.2 GT3 and have a Carrera T on order, I had to make room and pay for the P Cars. I wouldn't say I have seller's remorse, but when I go out into the garage, and not see the TA, I get a little sad. I miss her already, so think twice before letting the TA go.

[dewilmoth]

Sold my TA over the weekend!!! It was a very difficult decision but since I recently got a 991.2 GT3 and have a Carrera T on order, I had to make room and pay for the P Cars. I wouldn't say I have seller's remorse, but when I go out into the garage, and not see the TA, I get a little sad. I miss her already, so think twice before letting the TA go.

I’m gonna need the Carrera T explained to me, I must be missing something. Saw one at the dealer, and I’m just not understanding the draw, especially relative to a TA.

[Bruce]

I’m gonna need the Carrera T explained to me, I must be missing something. Saw one at the dealer, and I’m just not understanding the draw, especially relative to a TA.

OK, the Carrera T is not to replace the TA by any stretch of imagination. That car is going to be my new family hauler as it's the sweet spot in the Carrera range and has rear seats for my 7 year old. I just have too many two seaters right now and trust me when I said it was a tough decision to sell the TA.

[dewilmoth]

OK, the Carrera T is not to replace the TA by any stretch of imagination. That car is going to be my new family hauler as it's the sweet spot in the Carrera range and has rear seats for my 7 year old. I just have too many two seaters right now and trust me when I said it was a tough decision to sell the TA.

Ah, gotcha. Was just curious.

[2doorrocket]

You'll miss it. It was hard watching her get picked up. Lots of memories. But it's the end of that chapter.

[swexlin]

I think we're confusing our Bruces here. Bruce with the T is not the same Bruce as started this thread. But congrats!

[Bruce H.]

Hi Guys,

I'm relieved to have now made the decision to keep the TA, with Deb's blessing :), and see how we feel after we've had the new Turbo S for a while. It's a special car also, has the all-weather daily driver thing nailed that we'll really enjoy, but I'm just not ready to give up all the things that I'm so passionate about with this TA. But beyond the love for the car, we have such a great time with our local Ontario Viper club, the VOA and NVE's, and all you guys on the forum that keep this a special place to meet and share!

So thanks again for all your input and support, and I'll be sure to let you know how it goes with the new car!

Cheers,

Bruce

[FLATOUT]

Come for the car, stay for the people. Rings true for Viper.


Hi Guys,

I'm relieved to have now made the decision to keep the TA, with Deb's blessing :), and see how we feel after we've had the new Turbo S for a while. It's a special car also, has the all-weather daily driver thing nailed that we'll really enjoy, but I'm just not ready to give up all the things that I'm so passionate about with this TA. But beyond the love for the car, we have such a great time with our local Ontario Viper club, the VOA and NVE's, and all you guys on the forum that keep this a special place to meet and share!

So thanks again for all your input and support, and I'll be sure to let you know how it goes with the new car!

Cheers,

Bruce

[Dr.Ron]

Hi Guys,

I'm relieved to have now made the decision to keep the TA, with Deb's blessing :), and see how we feel after we've had the new Turbo S for a while. It's a special car also, has the all-weather daily driver thing nailed that we'll really enjoy, but I'm just not ready to give up all the things that I'm so passionate about with this TA. But beyond the love for the car, we have such a great time with our local Ontario Viper club, the VOA and NVE's, and all you guys on the forum that keep this a special place to meet and share!

So thanks again for all your input and support, and I'll be sure to let you know how it goes with the new car!

Cheers,

Bruce

Enjoy the new ride! They're awesome cars. 10.68 bone stock! Drove one very briefly.

Ron

[J TNT]

Hi Guys,

I'm relieved to have now made the decision to keep the TA, with Deb's blessing :), and see how we feel after we've had the new Turbo S for a while. It's a special car also, has the all-weather daily driver thing nailed that we'll really enjoy, but I'm just not ready to give up all the things that I'm so passionate about with this TA. But beyond the love for the car, we have such a great time with our local Ontario Viper club, the VOA and NVE's, and all you guys on the forum that keep this a special place to meet and share!

So thanks again for all your input and support, and I'll be sure to let you know how it goes with the new car!

Cheers,

Bruce

Pheewww ...........
The Viper Gods will be pleased and will give you 10 years of good luck ................lol !
Glad to hear Bruce , that you and Deb will be making more memories with us !!! :t1236:

[TA Two Oh]

Welcome "back"!!! Glad that at least part of you is staying on the Dark Side.

[Bruce H.]

Thanks guys! I'm excited more than ever now for our season to start again in April/May. I spoke to Luke at the Tirerack and he says those new Corsa's will be made in the spring and has a lot pre-ordered for customers and lots for stock as well. Fresh rubber...open road...and it's all good!

[SilveRT8]

Enjoy the new ride! They're awesome cars. 10.68 bone stock! Drove one very briefly.

Ron

How about 10.58 bone stock ! for a loaded Cabrio !

[Matt Dillon]

Really NICE, but as Far as looks go you can Keep it! :)

[Bruce H.]

How about 10.58 bone stock ! for a loaded Cabrio !

Hey Claude, that's a truly amazing time, stock, right down to the P-Zero's!

I've been trying to figure out who is responsible for my losing a good two months of my life researching and making the very expensive decision to buy this 911...and I'm afraid that's you! It's been over a year and a half since we met at Tremblant, you were so excited about the Turbo S and kind of insisted that I drive it, and you also came out for some laps in my TA. Well then you bought your own TA and now I'm getting the Turbo S!

Please just do me this one small favor...if you ever buy anything to top either one of these great cars just don't let me drive it :)

Cheers buddy!

[SilveRT8]

Hey Claude, that's a truly amazing time, stock, right down to the P-Zero's!

I've been trying to figure out who is responsible for my losing a good two months of my life researching and making the very expensive decision to buy this 911...and I'm afraid that's you! It's been over a year and a half since we met at Tremblant, you were so excited about the Turbo S and kind of insisted that I drive it, and you also came out for some laps in my TA. Well then you bought your own TA and now I'm getting the Turbo S!

Please just do me this one small favor...if you ever buy anything to top either one of these great cars just don't let me drive it :)

Cheers buddy!

Hey Bruce, So glad that we met at Tremblant, you're a great friend for anyone to have !
Now the way you specced that lightweight Turbo S and your great driving on Track, I'm sure you will keep others awake at night thinking about their new car decision ?
So, we'll have to decide if we go with the TA or the P car ? With the Turbo, you're welcome to try my set of MPSC2 in 265/325 combo before buying a set fot yourself !
BTW, I'm picking up a new DD next week, '19 AMG GLC 63S, night package on 21's.

[Bruce H.]

Thanks Claude, and same with you! I won't have the TS until June or July so a TA day at Bob's May Tremblant date and then his Sept date with the Turbos would work for me! You should really try to come to Mosport. Come once and you'll want to come often! Great looking new DD...wow!

[Bruce H.]

Well you guys did such a great job of convincing me to have both of these great cars that I decided to take an earlier build allocation...

377703777137769

I received it a week ago and have managed to put a couple of hundred miles on it before dropping it off for a complete paint protection film install.

Early impressions are all very positive. This is going to be another good choice for long distance road trips involving a track day, with all the creature comforts, great ride quality and a relatively quiet interior to enjoy the excellent sound system. There's a really high level of build and handling refinement, and the level of grip with AWD and rear weight bias is really confidence inspiring. The paint quality looks very good, but not surprisingly isn't next to the Prefix finish on the TA.

This car takes absolutely nothing away from the Viper, on the road and I suspect on the track. They're so different in their nature, attributes and appeal, yet both are such extreme performers. I'm looking forward to experiencing the Turbo S on track and will be wasting no time doing that! Deb and I are taking it on our first road trip, driving it out to Bar Harbor Maine on the east coast, to put on break-in miles so I can do its first track day at Circuit Mont Trembant in Quebec on our way back :)

And despite the anticipation and excitement of ordering and receiving the new car, it's still the TA that I can't wait to get out of winter hibernation and back on the road. Keeping it was definitely the right choice!

Cheers,

Bruce

[Dr.Ron]

Congratulations! Gorgeous car. I like your color choice. It's amazing that you are fortunate enough to have both.

I can't wait to hear your track comparisons and times, although I already suspect I know the results.

Enjoy!

Ron

[viperBase1]

Congrats!

A Viper and a Porsche.. the perfect combo!

[J TNT]

Congratulations Bruce !!!

Well deserved ! Looking forward to your Track impression !
Great choice on interior and exterior color combinations ! :t1567:

[killer 33]

Congratulations! Gorgeous car. Great color combo and IMO it has the best rear end look of any car!

[Scott_in_fl]

Yes, great color combo. Really looks great. I'm a huge pcar fan, and I love your choice, but you made the right decision to also keep the TA. That is now a very solid garage that you have there!

[TrackAire]

Wow Bruce, what an epic looking car!! That thing looks hot. You and Deb enjoy the heck out of it!!

[sharmut]

Love the color combo. Congrats Bruce.

[SilveRT8]

WOW !!! Congrats to you and Deb for the great choice.
Let the fun begin and enjoy both cars in good health !

[IHOP]

Well you guys did such a great job of convincing me to have both of these great cars that I decided to take an earlier build allocation...

I received it a week ago and have managed to put a couple of hundred miles on it before dropping it off for a complete paint protection film install.

Early impressions are all very positive. This is going to be another good choice for long distance road trips involving a track day, with all the creature comforts, great ride quality and a relatively quiet interior to enjoy the excellent sound system. There's a really high level of build and handling refinement, and the level of grip with AWD and rear weight bias is really confidence inspiring. The paint quality looks very good, but not surprisingly isn't next to the Prefix finish on the TA.

This car takes absolutely nothing away from the Viper, on the road and I suspect on the track. They're so different in their nature, attributes and appeal, yet both are such extreme performers. I'm looking forward to experiencing the Turbo S on track and will be wasting no time doing that! Deb and I are taking it on our first road trip, driving it out to Bar Harbor Maine on the east coast, to put on break-in miles so I can do its first track day at Circuit Mont Trembant in Quebec on our way back :)

And despite the anticipation and excitement of ordering and receiving the new car, it's still the TA that I can't wait to get out of winter hibernation and back on the road. Keeping it was definitely the right choice!

Cheers,

Bruce

Congratulations Bruce and Deb!! Those are two amazing machines you guys have and it's great to see you enjoying them the way they were intended. I wish you guys all the best and safe travels!!

[Bruce H.]

Thanks guys! I'm looking forward to the first track day's impressions and will definitely share them!

[VRYALT3R3D]

Congratulations Bruce! The silver looks very sharp.

Hope to see you at a Speed Therapy track day!

[ACRSNK]

Congrats on the new P car. Glad you decided to keep to TA as well. You would have had Seller’s remorse had you sold it.

[Bruce H.]

Congratulations Bruce! The silver looks very sharp.

Hope to see you at a Speed Therapy track day!
Thanks Joseph, and I've registered for them all :)


Congrats on the new P car. Glad you decided to keep to TA as well. You would have had Seller’s remorse had you sold it.
Thank you. I started experiencing pretty severe seller's remorse when I almost sold it. So instead I've been busting ass and concrete as part of a major 1800's coach house reno to put in a new floor strong enough to support a lift for them!

[ACRSNK]

Thanks Joseph, and I've registered for them all :)


Thank you. I started experiencing pretty severe seller's remorse when I almost sold it. So instead I've been busting ass and concrete as part of a major 1800's coach house reno to put in a new floor strong enough to support a lift for them!

Sweet!!!! Post pics when you are done.

[Vipes]

Congrats Bruce, glad to hear you kept the TA. The new car looks great, it will be interesting to get some honest feedback on the 911 turbo at the track from somebody with so much track seat time in a TA. I hope you enjoy it!

[ky13]

Love it!

[TA Two Oh]

Congrats, Bruce and Deb! Like so many others, I eagerly await being able to read about your track impressions, and how it compares to your TA. One thing for sure... you won't be disappointed in the acceleration! Especially rocketing out of corners!

[PkB2014]

Awesome Bruce! Enjoy!

[Bruce H.]

Thanks guys. It's back from a full PPF install and I had a chance to take it for a good run tonight. I think one way I could sum up my street impressions would be to say this is a hi-po sports car you could happily replace your hi-end daily driver with...but probably not your rare and extroverted exotic with a stick ;)

[sadil]

I love the combo Bruce, congrats!

[Scott_in_fl]

Thanks guys. It's back from a full PPF install and I had a chance to take it for a good run tonight. I think one way I could sum up my street impressions would be to say this is a hi-po sports car you could happily replace your hi-end daily driver with...but probably not your rare and extroverted exotic with a stick ;)

I think that sums it up perfectly. 911tt is a chamelon and can do it all -- really well. Its almost too good and thus lacks some of the character and experience you get in the TA

[Bruce H.]

I did the first track day in the Turbo S on Saturday. Several here have been enthusiastically looking forward to hearing impressions relative to the TA so here goes...

It was a cool and wet day at Mosport's Driver Development Track (different from the high speed Grand Prix track I usually run). This is a highly technical track that was designed for training performance driving and it has few barriers and ample run-off areas that encourages probing the limits more safely. I've established grip and handling at and beyond the limits with several track cars here, including the TA two years ago in the same wet conditions, and another time in the dry. I feel I can rather accurately compare the two cars. I drove one hour sessions in an instructor and advanced group.

The first session was drizzling and there was standing water in numerous places from an all night rain. I had no idea what to expect and immediately set out to establish levels of grip under braking, cornering and throttle, which varied very substantially from area to area on track. I was surprised that it took just 2-3 laps to sort out the car's general handling behavior and to become fairly comfortable driving the car on the limits of grip. I was among 3 equally matched cars running out front (with the exception of a Radical race car that was faster than all). I waved one past me during those first 3 laps and then matched his pace and the other fast car for the whole day. While conditions eventually improved to mostly dry the 3 of us remained evenly matched.

The Turbo S has regular P-Zeros, CCB brakes, 4 wheel steering, all wheel drive and probably a very advanced stability and traction control systems I would think. I expected it to be about the same as the TA in these conditions under hard braking, but noticeably more capable exiting corners with the AWD. The Turbo S would predictably squirm and engage ABS under aggressive braking, but grip through turn-in, mid-corner and exit seemed about the same as the TA's from memory. I'm not sure the TA's Corsa tires would be any better than the Turbo's regular P-Zeros in the wet. The noticeable difference in corners was how the front tires seemed less burdened than the Viper's, owing at least partially to not having the engine's weight over them. The 4 wheel steering would have helped it turn-in well, but I wouldn't say it turned in any better than the TA, which turns in great also. Both car's do benefit similarly from the driver placing a little weight over the nose at turn-in to avoid under-steer, and both from careful use of throttle on exit. The TA is enormously capable of skating around this track right on the limits in the wet, and a couple of terrified Viper club members experienced that with me 2 years ago! The Turbo S was basically the same, while doing a pretty good job of masking its additional 200+ lb weight.

So without a doubt the TA and Turbo S are fantastic on this technical track in wet conditions, and I just can't say that one was better than the other, although I was hoping the Turbo S would have more grip in the wet than it did. I could see the other two fast cars also struggling with grip in all the same places as well, but they were also much lighter than mine so the AWD and 4 wheel steering were probably at least helping to offset the car's extra weight. Part way through one session I switched off the traction control and noticed no difference at the limit so I feel reasonably comfortable that I wasn't leaning on the nannies very much, which is good to know as it shows that the Turbo S handling really is set up quite well for the track without much intervention.

As the track mostly dried out I was still able to exceed the tires grip everywhere. Loss of grip was very predictable, and it was very progressive as I approached and exceeded the limits. I felt the car was easy to find and balance right on the edge of grip, and it handled the fast transitions through esses, braking and acceleration very well. I just couldn't upset the handling driving it properly. There was no tail happy nature like 911's of old where the rear passing the front was always just a slight driver error away. And worth noting, the TA has never tried to kill me with poor handling either! As odd as this is to say, and to read and believe I'm sure, I just found this Turbo S balance and handling to be very similar to the Viper TA. I don't know how they did that but if you have the skill level to drive one at the limit you'd likely find you can do the same in short order with the other.

The driving experience on track isn't the same even though the performance felt near identical, which I suspect it will be once I start comparing data logs with the 911. The stock TA with black interior, 6 point harness and 6 speed manual looks, feels and sounds like an exotic that's been set up to be the over-achieving track monster that it is. The Turbo S looks, feels and sounds like the classy button down conservative and enormously capable and comfortable daily driving sleeper that it is...and will give most track specials a good run. The PDK shifting is pretty incredible, always in the right gear under braking, cornering, and blasting down the straights. I didn't miss the manual shifting on this first track day but was very aware that I had a lot more brain space available for all other aspects of driving.

Is a DCT better, should everyone run out and get one? Well, I remember meeting an owner of a late model 911 GT3 with PDK in the pits before going out on track together a couple of years back. He asked why I had chosen the Viper to track, and noted the exceptional quality of his P-car and its superior PDK/DCT transmission. I looked and listened with genuine interest as he discussed his car, the car that was second on my list when I bought the first place TA ! Now I could have shown a tiny bit disappointed that he didn't reciprocate by showing interest in my TA, with obsolete but manly 6 speed, but it sure felt good giving him a big wave and a smile as I flew past him on track, and then again when I lapped him :) I was so happy that day to have a manual...and every day since. Own, drive and track the car and tranny that you enjoy... and if you're fast with a manual it might just make you feel like a hero! And I doubt being out front on track in my new daily driver will get old regardless of what tranny it has :)

But the thing that has surprised me, and others have questioned here, is just how much fun this car really is to drive normally on the street. The car is gorgeous inside and out, it has so many really useful and enjoyable features to enhance its daily driver creds, the superb ride quality, handling and performance is evident all the time, and you can't resist putting the spurs to it for just a moment at least once every time you take it out to remind yourself of what an amazing car you're just tooling around in. I didn't appreciate any of that during my test drive prior to buying, but purchased it based on countless very positive reviews. Some reviewers referred to the suggestion that the car is a bit boring to drive, but none agreed with that view, and i sure don't either. I'm still in the honey moon stage with it and my views could change I suppose, but if they do I'll just take it back out on track and fall in love all over again.

And as great as this Turbo S is it just reminds me of what an outstanding car the Viper is. The Viper is so elemental by design, takes advantage of so few technologies, and is all the more special for it. And it providing incredible performance that rewards the driver in ways that others with more tech can strip away. I hope and expect to continue enjoying the TA for a long while yet, and have found the perfect garage companion to compliment it. I now just need to finish the garage renovation so they'll both fit in!

Bruce

[Scott_in_fl]

Nice review, sorry to hear about the wet conditions.

I can echo your thoughts about how nice it is to have the DCT on something you daily drive. A quick rip up an on-ramp, down a short backroad, or while making a pass on the highway is so much fun with the DCT cars because it is so effortless. They go right NOW, without any work or drama. So I stand by my conclusion that, for a daily, you really can't beat a 911tt. It just works so well, in all conditions, with so much comfort.

But if you can't DD a 911tt for one reason or another, and if your fun car is something you can only enjoy every other weekend (if that), then I like something that is much more of an experience to operate. The tight, racecar feel of the cockpit, the 6-spd manual, the V10 sound, the attention grabbing nature of the car, etc. are more fun in small doses. For some, it's something like an Aventador -- a pain in the ass to take anywhere, a clunky transmission, quirky ergos, but an absolute experience every time you drive it. For me, the Viper fills that role (the wife is not approving a $400k car). You are very lucky to have both!

[Bruce H.]

Thanks Scott. The wet and then drying conditions could not actually have been better to accomplish the goal of determining the handling and capabilities of the car on track.

[simon455]

Reading this made me feel like I was there inside the car, very nice review Bruce! looking forward to hear further impressions and can’t wait till the 24th. See you then.

[ACR-ISH]

Keep the TA, drive the TurboS during the off season. Savor the anticipation when the TA exits hibernation.

Nail on the head...? Yup!

[Bruce H.]

Reading this made me feel like I was there inside the car, very nice review Bruce! looking forward to hear further impressions and can’t wait till the 24th. See you then.

Thanks Simon, and the 24th on the Grand Prix track can't come soon enough!

[St Pete Viper ACR E]

Simple. Sell the TA and get an ACR-E. You won't miss the TA for a moment and have the best Viper ever.

LOL, now thats thinking out of the box.

[Arizona Vipers]

Porsche's dominating the Viper's at One Lap right now- http://www.onelapofamerica.com/event/CumResultsClass.do?eventId=39&className=SGT-1%20BB
The McLaren crashed hard, so Porsche is 1, 2, 3, 4 right now sigh.

[Bruce H.]

Porsche's dominating the Viper's at One Lap right now- http://www.onelapofamerica.com/event/CumResultsClass.do?eventId=39&className=SGT-1%20BB
The McLaren crashed hard, so Porsche is 1, 2, 3, 4 right now sigh.

Drivers tracking cars with dual clutch transmissions like the Nissan GTR, Porsche, all McLarens and many others have a huge advantage over those rowing a manual. All other things being equal, DCT wins every time.

If we see a Gen 6 Viper it's a sure thing that FCA will have a DCT in it, and active aero to minimize drag.

[Scott_in_fl]

Porsche's dominating the Viper's at One Lap right now- http://www.onelapofamerica.com/event/CumResultsClass.do?eventId=39&className=SGT-1%20BB
The McLaren crashed hard, so Porsche is 1, 2, 3, 4 right now sigh.

Meh, no news there. If half the field were ACR's, it would likely be a different story.

But another poster is right, that the DCT is a giant advantage in an event where you have almost no time to practice any runs on each course. DCT just makes everything easier, but I still think ultimate performance could go to a manual if there were time to run the course and get down shift points, brake markers, etc.

What was more surprising is that '15 911tt is beating a '18 GT3RS, which is whooping a '19 GT2RS. So it would seem that having the easier car to drive has so far been a huge advantage.

[Arizona Vipers]

Drivers tracking cars with dual clutch transmissions like the Nissan GTR, Porsche, all McLarens and many others have a huge advantage over those rowing a manual. All other things being equal, DCT wins every time.

If we see a Gen 6 Viper it's a sure thing that FCA will have a DCT in it, and active aero to minimize drag.

Yep, it is a massive advantage in so many ways. Hence the 500hp RS running a 6.56 ring time.

[Arizona Vipers]

Meh, no news there. If half the field were ACR's, it would likely be a different story.

But another poster is right, that the DCT is a giant advantage in an event where you have almost no time to practice any runs on each course. DCT just makes everything easier, but I still think ultimate performance could go to a manual if there were time to run the course and get down shift points, brake markers, etc.

What was more surprising is that '15 911tt is beating a '18 GT3RS, which is whooping a '19 GT2RS. So it would seem that having the easier car to drive has so far been a huge advantage.

It comes down to the driver. The Camaro's have been smoking the Gen 5's at this event. Even the base SS 1LE's have been many seconds ahead of the ACR throughout this event. I think there has been rain because the AWD cars have seemed to start pulling way ahead of where they were. Either that or they are getting faster due to less rear tire wear.

[serpent]

It comes down to the driver. The Camaro's have been smoking the Gen 5's at this event. Even the base SS 1LE's have been many seconds ahead of the ACR throughout this event. I think there has been rain because the AWD cars have seemed to start pulling way ahead of where they were. Either that or they are getting faster due to less rear tire wear.
Wow that's a sign of how shitty the ACR driver is. Are the camaros modded or stock? Anyone with money can buy these cars, but if you're a non driving mofo it throws cars potential out the window. Luckily Porsche has dct, 4 wheel steering etc to save the driver.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

It has rained almost the entire event. A lot of cars have gone off track or worse. I’d rather be slower than on a flatbed.

AZ - you should do it next year!

Doug

[Bruce H.]

Meh, no news there. If half the field were ACR's, it would likely be a different story.

But another poster is right, that the DCT is a giant advantage in an event where you have almost no time to practice any runs on each course. DCT just makes everything easier, but I still think ultimate performance could go to a manual if there were time to run the course and get down shift points, brake markers, etc.

What was more surprising is that '15 911tt is beating a '18 GT3RS, which is whooping a '19 GT2RS. So it would seem that having the easier car to drive has so far been a huge advantage.

Course configuration is also a factor in determining how much a manual will be at a disadvantage. Courses requiring 2nd gear through 5th are a lot tougher than ones with 3rd to 5th with a manual.

I don't know what mods are allowed in what OLOA classes but some modded 911 Turbos are quicker than the RS.

[Arizona Vipers]

Wow that's a sign of how shitty the ACR driver is. Are the camaros modded or stock? Anyone with money can buy these cars, but if you're a non driving mofo it throws cars potential out the window. Luckily Porsche has dct, 4 wheel steering etc to save the driver.

Yeah stock, I have been on track with the Arizona guy before, great driver.

[serpent]

I don't know what mods are allowed in what OLOA classes but some modded 911 Turbos are quicker than the RS.
I thought I read on here that Porsche purposely uses regular pzero grip tires for the Turbo not only for street driving but to make the GT3 performance look more impressive since less power/NA. But then when you put equal tires on the turbo it will out shine the gt3/3RS



Yeah stock, I have been on track with the Arizona guy before, great driver.
Not questioning your ability, ive seen you post the NASA records. But there is absolutely no reason an ACR would lose to a camaro. lighter car, more grip, more power, etc.

Btw, have you considered a Stohr WF1? Can put a turbo hayabusa motor on that and skies the limit with a 1000lb racecar.

[Bruce H.]

I thought I read on here that Porsche purposely uses regular pzero grip tires for the Turbo not only for street driving but to make the GT3 performance look more impressive since less power/NA. But then when you put equal tires on the turbo it will out shine the gt3/3RS

Well 20 mm wider Sport Cup 2s on the GTs and P Zeros or Pilot Sport 4s on the Turbos are the right tire for the way they market them, and for the way most buyers use them, but they're probably not too upset if that helps the GT cars perform their best ;) Even still the Turbo has sometimes matched or bested the GTs in comparisons in recent years with drivers like Randy Pobst at Laguna Seca and Jethro Bovington at Anglesey. Some track rats with Turbos are putting on the same wider Sport Cup 2s and they make a big difference...as tires always do.

[Arizona Vipers]

I thought I read on here that Porsche purposely uses regular pzero grip tires for the Turbo not only for street driving but to make the GT3 performance look more impressive since less power/NA. But then when you put equal tires on the turbo it will out shine the gt3/3RS



Not questioning your ability, ive seen you post the NASA records. But there is absolutely no reason an ACR would lose to a camaro. lighter car, more grip, more power, etc.

Btw, have you considered a Stohr WF1? Can put a turbo hayabusa motor on that and skies the limit with a 1000lb racecar.

The Camaro beat almost everything, go look at the times. Again he's a great driver, he's been doing this for a LONG time. If you go to track events, the car has nothing to do with the fastest cars. Most events I go to, the TT3 BMW's have faster lap times than most of the TT1 cars. Most events I go to that have other Viper's, the Viper's are never anywhere near close to the fastest cars. When I went to the Viper Tracks event like 4 years ago at Chuckwalla, out of 100+ Viper's nobody was under 2 minute times. When I go there with Nasa there are 120hp Miata's under two minutes LOL. I got beat by a 270whp BMW 2 years ago at Chuckwalla
Check this out, here's the results from my last Chuckwalla event-
http://timingscoring.drivenasa.com/NASA_Arizona_Region/2019%20-%20Official%20Results/02%20-%20Chuckwalla%20Valley%20Raceway/Time%20Trial%20-%20TT6-TTU%20-%202-16-19.pdf
My friend in the ACR is very fast, he would beat 95% of the guys on this forum, very experienced at Chuckwalla on Hoosier's and there are 14 cars that beat him. 14 cars. Some with as little as 120whp
Take your Viper to a Nasa event and see what happens. hehe.



And no on prototype cars I only want to track a Viper. The only reason I go to the track is just the fun of modifying/engineering my Viper to keep making it faster. That's the fun of it for me. I want the fastest doorslammer in the country even though I know I'll be 20 seconds behind Ginetta's etc. A Stohr would be crazy fun though!

[Arizona Vipers]

It has rained almost the entire event. A lot of cars have gone off track or worse. I’d rather be slower than on a flatbed.

AZ - you should do it next year!

Doug

Yeah the McLaren that was gonna win crashed bad. The only way you can be competitive in One Lap is if you are already familiar with all the tracks. Since you only get one set of tires for the whole thing, a practice session to learn the track is out of the question, so I won't be doing this event. I do want to do the Optima street car challenge though, although it sucks part of the competion is "fit and finish" or something like that

[TrackAire]

Yeah the McLaren that was gonna win crashed bad. The only way you can be competitive in One Lap is if you are already familiar with all the tracks. Since you only get one set of tires for the whole thing, a practice session to learn the track is out of the question, so I won't be doing this event. I do want to do the Optima street car challenge though, although it sucks part of the competion is "fit and finish" or something like that

The Design and Engineering scoring is total bullshit. So I'll grant you a wish, lol.....they now have an "unlimited" class that does not have D&E scoring. I still think you have to run a 200 TW tire, but you're Viper would actually be competitive. As you stated above, driver talent is key but your Viper is going to be more than enough car to be near the top.

You should go for it.....funny thing is they guys running those events get more TV time than any SCCA or NASA champion would ever get. Optima has done a good job with the marketing.

[Arizona Vipers]

The Design and Engineering scoring is total bullshit. So I'll grant you a wish, lol.....they now have an "unlimited" class that does not have D&E scoring. I still think you have to run a 200 TW tire, but you're Viper would actually be competitive. As you stated above, driver talent is key but your Viper is going to be more than enough car to be near the top.

You should go for it.....funny thing is they guys running those events get more TV time than any SCCA or NASA champion would ever get. Optima has done a good job with the marketing.

I don't think roll cages are allowed so would run my stock ACR. A Viper came in 2nd place last year, does anyone know him? Austin Barnes- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVJwhHdBDbM
Dude is a hell of a driver, wow!

[Scott_in_fl]

I don't think roll cages are allowed so would run my stock ACR. A Viper came in 2nd place last year, does anyone know him? Austin Barnes- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVJwhHdBDbM
Dude is a hell of a driver, wow!

No kidding!!! That guy can drive.

[TrackAire]

I don't think roll cages are allowed so would run my stock ACR. A Viper came in 2nd place last year, does anyone know him? Austin Barnes- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVJwhHdBDbM
Dude is a hell of a driver, wow!

I do believe that roll cages are legal....but I also believe you have to be able to do the street driving loop of the event. If you can finish it, you get the maximum 100 points. I would think you'd need a registered vehicle to do the drive on the street (don't remember if your race Viper is registered for street).

Austin is a race car driver.....he is pretty damn good.

But, here is the kicker with the Optima series. It really comes down to tires since the damn things have to be stamped TW200 or higher. Just like every other race series, the very top guys get "special" BFG Rival S 1.5 tires (the tire to beat) for the event that they cannot keep or sell. While I don't have a letter from BFG admitting to this, I do know a few of the top drivers that do not have access to the special tires and aren't happy about it.

Unfortunately you cannot run the Kumho's ACR-E tires....they have been outlawed by the Optima Series but are still legal to run in the LS Fest events.

[Arizona Vipers]

I do believe that roll cages are legal....but I also believe you have to be able to do the street driving loop of the event. If you can finish it, you get the maximum 100 points. I would think you'd need a registered vehicle to do the drive on the street (don't remember if your race Viper is registered for street).

Austin is a race car driver.....he is pretty damn good.

But, here is the kicker with the Optima series. It really comes down to tires since the damn things have to be stamped TW200 or higher. Just like every other race series, the very top guys get "special" BFG Rival S 1.5 tires (the tire to beat) for the event that they cannot keep or sell. While I don't have a letter from BFG admitting to this, I do know a few of the top drivers that do not have access to the special tires and aren't happy about it.

Unfortunately you cannot run the Kumho's ACR-E tires....they have been outlawed by the Optima Series but are still legal to run in the LS Fest events.

Well if that's true, that's shitty. If I went and I saw guys running a compound that I couldn't buy there would be hell to pay LOL. There are plenty of OEM/street cheater compounds out there, the Michelin ZP compound comes to mind. This tire was used by Chevy on the Z06 and was so fast, Mercedes stole it and ran the same tire (same sizes etc) on the GT-R. Check out this article, very interesting- https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15339766/if-you-cant-beat-em-buy-em-the-raciest-version-of-mercedes-amg-gt-r-wears-corvette-tires/
I ran these tires on my GTR at Arizona Motorsports Park ( http://arizonamotorsportspark.com/ ) and was just 2.8 seconds off the all time fastest lap ever recorded there on any tire.

[Bruce H.]

I just read a tire comparison test that showed how poor the Pirelli P-Zero is in the wet which could go a long ways in explaining why I didn't feel like I had much of an advantage even with AWD on this wet track day. I'll have to see how fast I can wear these tires out :)

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15092360/2017-performance-summer-tire-test-feature/

Bruce




The Turbo S has regular P-Zeros, CCB brakes, 4 wheel steering, all wheel drive and probably a very advanced stability and traction control systems I would think. I expected it to be about the same as the TA in these conditions under hard braking, but noticeably more capable exiting corners with the AWD. The Turbo S would predictably squirm and engage ABS under aggressive braking, but grip through turn-in, mid-corner and exit seemed about the same as the TA's from memory. I'm not sure the TA's Corsa tires would be any better than the Turbo's regular P-Zeros in the wet. The noticeable difference in corners was how the front tires seemed less burdened than the Viper's, owing at least partially to not having the engine's weight over them. The 4 wheel steering would have helped it turn-in well, but I wouldn't say it turned in any better than the TA, which turns in great also. Both car's do benefit similarly from the driver placing a little weight over the nose at turn-in to avoid under-steer, and both from careful use of throttle on exit. The TA is enormously capable of skating around this track right on the limits in the wet, and a couple of terrified Viper club members experienced that with me 2 years ago! The Turbo S was basically the same, while doing a pretty good job of masking its additional 200+ lb weight.

Bruce

[serpent]

I just read a tire comparison test that showed how poor the Pirelli P-Zero is in the wet which could go a long ways in explaining why I didn't feel like I had much of an advantage even with AWD on this wet track day. I'll have to see how fast I can wear these tires out :)

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15092360/2017-performance-summer-tire-test-feature/

Bruce
Bruce, i think its been beaten to death how much the pzero sucks. Its probably like this in all forums too, it is in the mustang forums and i heard in the hellcat forums too. Even reviews on youtube. Only pzero branding worth getting are either corsa or trofeo R.

[Bruce H.]

Bruce, i think its been beaten to death how much the pzero sucks. Its probably like this in all forums too, it is in the mustang forums and i heard in the hellcat forums too. Even reviews on youtube. Only pzero branding worth getting are either corsa or trofeo R.

It has been here for sure, but an upgraded P-Zero was introduced since, supposed to be much better, and that's the one on my car. There's actually also a new Corsa as well. It'll be interesting to see how these do on a dry high-speed track in 2 weeks.

[bmwtmx]

I had the same dilemma. I had a 997 Turbo and Viper T/A. I sold the Turbo and kept the Viper and then a few months later I bought a 964 Turbo. I don't know why but the Porsche just didn't do it for me and I am a Porsche guy. I have had 2 930's, a 996TT that was my track car, 996 GT2 and the 997 TT. Of all these my 997TT was my least favorite. I don't know why but maybe it was just because it was so easy to drive and did everything perfectly so it was boring when it was all said and done. Nothing visceral about it. The Viper for me puts me in a good mood every time drive it. I just know I am driving something special and you never see them. But that's me. Good luck.

[simon455]

It has been here for sure, but an upgraded P-Zero was introduced since, supposed to be much better, and that's the one on my car. There's actually also a new Corsa as well. It'll be interesting to see how these do on a dry high-speed track in 2 weeks.

Bruce, i have the new style corsas in front on my Ta (295 30 19)
May 24 will possibly reveal more about them.

[Bruce H.]

I had the same dilemma. I had a 997 Turbo and Viper T/A. I sold the Turbo and kept the Viper and then a few months later I bought a 964 Turbo. I don't know why but the Porsche just didn't do it for me and I am a Porsche guy. I have had 2 930's, a 996TT that was my track car, 996 GT2 and the 997 TT. Of all these my 997TT was my least favorite. I don't know why but maybe it was just because it was so easy to drive and did everything perfectly so it was boring when it was all said and done. Nothing visceral about it. The Viper for me puts me in a good mood every time drive it. I just know I am driving something special and you never see them. But that's me. Good luck.

That is strange that the 997 TT model was the one that didn't do it for you. The 991 is a riot when you want it to be, and calm and classy when you feel like that. On the track it feels and sounds great.

[Bruce H.]

Bruce, i have the new style corsas in front on my Ta (295 30 19)
May 24 will possibly reveal more about them.

Are you sure Simon? The new model is the PZC4 and it doesn't show availability wider than 245 in a 19".

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Pirelli&tireModel=P+Zero+Corsa+%28PZC4%29

Either way I will be very interested in your impressions.

[Bruce H.]

Last week Deb and I were touring around Bar Harbor Maine in the 911. It was a 3000 km (~1800 mile) round trip, with much of it driven in the rain. We had booked it to put on the break-in miles so the car was ready to do a lapping day at Circuit Mont Tremblant in Quebec on our way back home to Ontario. Well I've been enjoying the car's daily driver abilities so much I had already racked up the break-in miles before even starting the trip. From earlier comments it's obvious that the car is fantastic at doing the DD thing...but what about it's tracking creds???

-Mont Tremblant, Quebec, private open lapping day with PCA instructors and club racers May 22nd.

The rain and shitty weather took a day off and we enjoyed sun, a dry track, and around 70 F temps. The track was green from all the previous day's rain and lap times were predictably off because of that. I was mostly following a buddy driving his AMG GTS on Dunlop R-compounds that seemed to be heat cycled out (or the track was just that bad) and I was maybe just a hair quicker in the 911 on the stock P-Zeros, which is the same as when driving the TA. then again, if he were on fresh R-compounds he's have probably kicked my ass. And to avoid that possibility ever happening I will probably throw on some Cup 2's for next time!

Where it had been tough to discern any real advantage with the 911's AWD 2 weeks ago on a tight track in the wet, the added grip and stability was pretty obvious on this high speed track, and I could also feel the extra 200+lbs of the 911 TS in the corners. Braking is outstanding, the car's balance and all aspects of handling are bang on, and even the new generation of P-Zero tire is impressive on this car. PDK shifting in auto mode is faultless under braking, through a corner, and under any amount of throttle. I think the surprise might have been how fierce it sounds in the Sport modes on track where the whole car really comes alive.

The track day ended, we stayed over that night and then headed back home to prepare for the TA vs 911 showdown at Mosport.

-TA VS 911 Turbo S at Mosport May 24th

We picked up the TA from its winter den at the cottage on our way home, Deb drove it to the house, with me still in the 911. We unpacked and loaded track gear for the morning into the 911.

I ran it for the 3 - 20 minute morning sessions to establish times with it and Deb arrived with the TA in time to watch my last morning session. After lunch I jumped into the TA, driving it for the first time since late last October I believe, and it felt like the first time ever. Surprising how quickly you forget some things after driving something else a lot, but it all came back to me...including finally remembering to set the ESC to Track Mode in the last session of the day!

But what I hadn't forgotten was the car's fantastic handling dynamics, and I had it dancing on the limits of grip very quickly. It was sunny and great weather at Mosport, another exception to an otherwise very wet month. Again the track was green from previous day's heavy rains so times were off. And since Pirelli hasn't made the stock Corsa tires available for over a year I had to make due with a heavily worn tire on the front right. I corded it on the 3rd afternoon session, recording my fastest time on the very last lap! Corsa...good to the last lap ;)

But what I really wanted to know was which car was fastest, same track, same day, same driver. Well, my results mirrored Randy Pobst's, and the 911 TS was a fraction of a second quicker than the TA, and it would have been even closer if the TA had fresher tires on it. The 911 absolutely explodes out of the hairpin and on to the back straight, topping out at 156 mph to the TA's 151. Three ACR-E track buddies were also there and a couple commented how the Turbo pulled so hard on them. But I could feel it just not as quick through the corners where the extra weight and street tire performance short-comings on track were obvious and not unexpected handicaps. Another reason to try a set of Sport cups on the 911 :)

As I ran these two track days in the 911 I've tried to analyze my impressions in order to explain them to you performance aficionados and it's been really tough to do that. I had hoped that running the TA back to back would make the differences obvious and easy to describe. But what I've found is two cars that couldn't be more different from each other in so many ways, yet be so similar on track. Yes the TA is faster in the corners, 911 quicker out of corners and down a straight, both phenomenal under braking, with both even exhibiting the same wiggle under high speed threshold braking. Both tending to light under-steer on corner entry that is easily managed with a similar throttle lift or slight trail-braking, superbly balanced at mid corner, and an inclination to throttle over-steer slightly if provoked on corner exit. Neither car has a single detectable vice. Where the TA definitely does telegraph more feedback to the driver, the 911 seems to provide everything that's needed. I had the 911's P-Zeros quickly singing through a number of corners, and could balance it into mid-corner under or over-steer with the loud pedal at will, just like I can the TA. Both cars are really progressive on the limits of grip, with the 911 even more-so I think, and that's perhaps the attribute that I value most. A 911 GT3 is a little more tricky at the limit, and the GT3RS requires really fast hands on the wheel, but the 911 Turbo S provides all the entertainment and reward I need at the limit. I mostly credit the new P-Zeros for this and it'll be interesting to see how that changes with Sport Cups...not too much I hope.

So the bottom line, TA vs 911 Turbo, they are both a blast to drive, the TA with manly stick the special occasion ride of choice, the 911 the sensational all weather daily driver you could spend a lifetime enjoying. I don't see the cars as competitors at all, but each complimenting the other. And Deb really, really enjoyed driving the TA to the house and to the track...and that's what maybe matters most!!! And I'll try to add some photos and maybe a track video when I get a chance.

Cheers,

Bruce

[ACRSNK]

Great write up Bruce. Making me want a new P car.

[Bruce H.]

Great write up Bruce. Making me want a new P car.

Thanks! I'm not sure if you're a track rat or not but those who are should really start thinking more about noise limits at tracks they use. At Mont Tremblant the city is starting to enforce a 92 dbA peak limit and there were 5 stations set up around that track for a PCA event last weekend and the Wednesday when we were there. Normally aspirated Porsches with high redlines and PDKs make a louder noise when they shift automatically. 9 out of 27 were thrown out when I was there...all were stock GT3, GT3RS and Cayman GT4s. Turbo'd engines are somewhat muffled by the turbos themselves and mine passed, by a little or a lot no one was ever told. There's definitely going to be some Porsche GTs sporting aftermarket mufflers at Tremblant soon!

I don't know what noise level Vipers produce but I really wonder if any will pass at Tremblant. The California guys would have an idea as that's an issue at Laguna Seca, with them waiting for high or unlimited db days. But how and where they measure is extremely important. If the sound meter is close to the edge of the track, or a reflecting surface like a wall, bridge or tower, a car that passes at one track may not at another. Something to consider.

[Arizona Vipers]

Thanks! I'm not sure if you're a track rat or not but those who are should really start thinking more about noise limits at tracks they use. At Mont Tremblant the city is starting to enforce a 92 dbA peak limit and there were 5 stations set up around that track for a PCA event last weekend and the Wednesday when we were there. Normally aspirated Porsches with high redlines and PDKs make a louder noise when they shift automatically. 9 out of 27 were thrown out when I was there...all were stock GT3, GT3RS and Cayman GT4s. Turbo'd engines are somewhat muffled by the turbos themselves and mine passed, by a little or a lot no one was ever told. There's definitely going to be some Porsche GTs sporting aftermarket mufflers at Tremblant soon!

I don't know what noise level Vipers produce but I really wonder if any will pass at Tremblant. The California guys would have an idea as that's an issue at Laguna Seca, with them waiting for high or unlimited db days. But how and where they measure is extremely important. If the sound meter is close to the edge of the track, or a reflecting surface like a wall, bridge or tower, a car that passes at one track may not at another. Something to consider.

My friend's bone stock 2016 ACR did 97db and my 2016 bone stock ACR with cat delete did 108db. A track with a 92db limit may as well close down. LOL

[SharpMan]

My friend's bone stock 2016 ACR did 97db and my 2016 bone stock ACR with cat delete did 108db. A track with a 92db limit may as well close down. LOL

I've been told that cars with side-exit exhausts are at a disadvantage for obvious reasons...

[serpent]

My friend's bone stock 2016 ACR did 97db and my 2016 bone stock ACR with cat delete did 108db. A track with a 92db limit may as well close down. LOL
Too bad you've never been to LS it is one of the premier tracks. 92db limit sucks, but they do have a higher db limit day/s. I think you will still go over that in your 9L viper.
I'm curious how fast you'd be at that track

[TA Two Oh]

Great write up, as always Bruce. And you raise an excellent point about increasingly draconian noise restrictions. No issues at our current local track as it’s on the International Airport property. Plus, we’re next to a drag strip and when they’re running, you can’t hear any of our cars at all!

Our new track will open within 1 year and noise limits were, of course, part of the approval process. It’ll be interesting-and likely equal parts frustrating and disappointing- to see how the meters react to our cars.

It’ll be great to be running on a wonderful brand new track. But I suspect that more than a few of us will look back fondly at the old “unlimited dB every day” days at the old place.

[soltic]

After riding passenger in Bruce's Porsche for the first morning outing then following as a passenger in an ACR-E w/ Arrow controller, the Porsche pulled up the backstraight at Mosport like a rocketship. 4-wheel on exit and accel and slippier w/ less big aero made the Porsche pull on the ACR-E slightly.

Very nice car Brucey, may it serve you as well as the TA.

Rod

[Scott_in_fl]

After riding passenger in Bruce's Porsche for the first morning outing then following as a passenger in an ACR-E w/ Arrow controller, the Porsche pulled up the backstraight at Mosport like a rocketship. 4-wheel on exit and accel and slippier w/ less big aero made the Porsche pull on the ACR-E slightly.


No doubt that a 911tt is fast, but you likely were not with an equally capable driver in the ACR-E. Just sayin'.

[Arizona Vipers]

Too bad you've never been to LS it is one of the premier tracks. 92db limit sucks, but they do have a higher db limit day/s. I think you will still go over that in your 9L viper.
I'm curious how fast you'd be at that track

If my stock acr with no cats is 108, my 9 liter has to be 120 or more. It's 100 times louder, you can't even have a conversation near it if it's idling. And that was before the new high compression pistons (Can't wait to hear it!). For what it's worth my track buddy with a built Evo, we are always neck and neck I'm usually 1-2 seconds faster he ran 1.30 flat there. any good amateur driver should be deep in the 20's with my car.

[Scott_in_fl]

If my stock acr with no cats is 108, my 9 liter has to be 120 or more. It's 100 times louder, you can't even have a conversation near it if it's idling. And that was before the new high compression pistons (Can't wait to hear it!).

Wow, I did not realize the 9L's were so loud!!! Must be awesome, and I continue to mull over doing the upgrade, but now you've got me wondering about the long term effects on my hearing if I were to drive one on the road. My father and father-in-law both have hearing aids and they still can't hear shit for a conversation.

[soltic]

No doubt that a 911tt is fast, but you likely were not with an equally capable driver in the ACR-E. Just sayin'.

LOL, Mardig has more miles on his ACR-E than most and sure is quick -video shows a few ACR-E's dipped into the 1:28's that day, Mardig was at least a second faster so high 26's to mid 27's....

Everybody knows Gilles is quick and his best @ Mosport without a passenger was a 26 and change, so I think Mardig w/ a passenger coming very close to that may say something about his abilities....

Just sayin'.

Bruce, what were your times in the TA?

Rod

[J TNT]

No doubt that a 911tt is fast, but you likely were not with an equally capable driver in the ACR-E. Just sayin'.

Scott sorry to burst your bubble but you are selling these guys short........

Just saying.........lol ! :drive:

[Arizona Vipers]

Wow, I did not realize the 9L's were so loud!!! Must be awesome, and I continue to mull over doing the upgrade, but now you've got me wondering about the long term effects on my hearing if I were to drive one on the road. My father and father-in-law both have hearing aids and they still can't hear shit for a conversation.

I'm running no cats and Viper Exchange titanium mufflers which are almost straight though, so with cats and mufflers you'd be fine!

[SilveRT8]

Hey Bruce,
Really nice write-up, exactly what I felt on track and street with both the 911 TTS and TA, but I could never describe it so well as you just did !
My TA has Belanger headers with Cats and AR mufllers and I always passed the sound test at Tremblant. My 911 TTS with Sharkwerks muffler (2 straight pipes behind the cats) also passes at Tremblant, so maybe they place the meters just far enough ?
I also run the PSC2 (265/325) on the TTS and they show an improvement over the stock Pirelli which are actually quite good in the Porsche specs.
See you at Tremblant on June 28 ??

[Scott_in_fl]

Scott sorry to burst your bubble but you are selling these guys short........

Just saying.........lol ! :drive:

That does not seem to bear out in any track times run by fast drivers. N'Ring is 7:17 for TTS, with Porsche setting the lap time, which we all know is nearly impossible for any other human to replicate.

So you're looking at very nearly a 20 second differential from a bone stock ACR-E, let alone one with an Arrow controller and who knows what else (likely some exhaust mods to take advantage of the tune). And, that is on a track where we know the DCT cars have a huge advantage.

Anyway, that differential extrapolates to about a 6-7 sec. difference on a typical US road course with a 1:45-2 min. lap length, which is an eternity (and in line with what we would expect to see at something like Laguna, COTA, VIR, etc.).

[Bruce H.]

Great write up, as always Bruce. And you raise an excellent point about increasingly draconian noise restrictions. No issues at our current local track as it’s on the International Airport property. Plus, we’re next to a drag strip and when they’re running, you can’t hear any of our cars at all!

Our new track will open within 1 year and noise limits were, of course, part of the approval process. It’ll be interesting-and likely equal parts frustrating and disappointing- to see how the meters react to our cars.

It’ll be great to be running on a wonderful brand new track. But I suspect that more than a few of us will look back fondly at the old “unlimited dB every day” days at the old place.

Thanks Doug. I hope the new track measurement methods aren't silly like they were at Tremblant where one meter was set up next to the tower and another by a bridge where sound was reflected and effectively amplified.



After riding passenger in Bruce's Porsche for the first morning outing then following as a passenger in an ACR-E w/ Arrow controller, the Porsche pulled up the backstraight at Mosport like a rocketship. 4-wheel on exit and accel and slippier w/ less big aero made the Porsche pull on the ACR-E slightly.

Very nice car Brucey, may it serve you as well as the TA. Rod

Thanks Rod, but I'm thinking your comments might just need a wee bit of clarification!


No doubt that a 911tt is fast, but you likely were not with an equally capable driver in the ACR-E. Just sayin'.

The 911 TT can rather accurately be described as a rocketship the way it pulls out of a corner and murders a straight, but even though it's quicker there a stock ACR-E is going to have a significantly quicker lap time than a stock 911 Turbo S. It gets a lot more interesting though when the Turbo is treated to similarly serious race tires, track dampers, aggressive alignment and weight savings. Not the plan for mine though unless I'm contemplating becoming single!


Hey Bruce,
Really nice write-up, exactly what I felt on track and street with both the 911 TTS and TA, but I could never describe it so well as you just did !
My TA has Belanger headers with Cats and AR mufllers and I always passed the sound test at Tremblant. My 911 TTS with Sharkwerks muffler (2 straight pipes behind the cats) also passes at Tremblant, so maybe they place the meters just far enough ?
I also run the PSC2 (265/325) on the TTS and they show an improvement over the stock Pirelli which are actually quite good in the Porsche specs.
See you at Tremblant on June 28 ??

Thanks Claude! I hope they're taking measurements the same way this year and you'll still be okay. I didn't book the 28th because our lake property sale closes right after that and I expect to be too tied up with preparation for that. I'm booked for the Bob Day there again on Sept 18th if you decide to do that one. Have a great day on June 28th!

[Arizona Vipers]

That does not seem to bear out in any track times run by fast drivers. N'Ring is 7:17 for TTS, with Porsche setting the lap time, which we all know is nearly impossible for any other human to replicate.

So you're looking at very nearly a 20 second differential from a bone stock ACR-E, let alone one with an Arrow controller and who knows what else (likely some exhaust mods to take advantage of the tune). And, that is on a track where we know the DCT cars have a huge advantage.

Anyway, that differential extrapolates to about a 6-7 sec. difference on a typical US road course with a 1:45-2 min. lap length, which is an eternity (and in line with what we would expect to see at something like Laguna, COTA, VIR, etc.).


You always see "slow" lap times for the Turbo, Porsche puts slow tires on it on purpose as they can't have it beating the GT3. The Turbo S IMO is way faster than an ACR-E or GT3 (on same tires) in your average drivers hands. It's just too fast. The acceleration of that car is mindblowing. You just point and shoot. There's plenty of articles online about this, even with Porsche engineers saying the Turbo S is faster on most tracks for the first 10 minutes or so until it gets hot, then the RS takes over. A bone stock older Turbo S just won One Lap of America including fastest times.

[Scott_in_fl]

^^^ For almost 10 years now, I have said that my Nissan GTR was a car that my grandmother could get into and drive really, really fast -- just press the right pedal and the computers take care of everything else. The 911tts is the same recipe as my old GTR (but even better, as will be the next GTR, etc., etc.).

So, yes, if drivers are part of the equation, then the average driver will be faster in a 911tts (and most "average" drivers may not even be able to drive a manual).

But if we are talking about the cars, then the limits of both cars are very different. The ACR-E is as close to a race car as you can get from an OEM mfg. A 911tts is a very fast street car.

[Bruce H.]

So, yes, if drivers are part of the equation, then the average driver will be faster in a 911tts (and most "average" drivers may not even be able to drive a manual).


Not a chance, and looking no further than tires. Massive grip vs marginal. You must be unaware that the ACR is considered a particularly easy car to drive very fast on track, and more so than any other Viper. That is a high compliment indeed, and pretty much expected of cars today that are designed and marketed to be very track capable. Track rats want cars that handle very well on track and those that do all come with R-compound tires.

[Snakebit10]

Enjoyed the write up.

So a Porsche Turbo Cabrolet on Cup 2's will be close, as fast or faster than an ACR-E on Kumho's and mods on track? If a turbo Cab is this potent I would think the Turbo S would be the better car to do both track and DD work. Makes the ACR's aero seem irrelevant.

[Bruce H.]

I don't know how they'll compare but one of my ACR-E track friends also just bought a '19 Turbo S and will have Cup 2's installed for its first day at Mosport coming up in July. I'm awfully tempted to do the same but will probably wear off the P-Zeros first.

Aero becomes a huge factor on any tracked car that goes as fast as so many do. This is a major contributor to the ACR's cornering ability. along with the Kumhos, but also general stability at speed. The ACR has a night and day advantage in 100 mph corners over just about every other car, including the Turbo S.

[Scott_in_fl]

Not a chance, and looking no further than tires. Massive grip vs marginal. You must be unaware that the ACR is considered a particularly easy car to drive very fast on track, and more so than any other Viper. That is a high compliment indeed, and pretty much expected of cars today that are designed and marketed to be very track capable. Track rats want cars that handle very well on track and those that do all come with R-compound tires.

I was referring to the ease of driving auto vs manual cars. Toss in the huge computer assist, and the ease to approach limits only increases.

[SilveRT8]

Thanks Claude! I hope they're taking measurements the same way this year and you'll still be okay. I didn't book the 28th because our lake property sale closes right after that and I expect to be too tied up with preparation for that. I'm booked for the Bob Day there again on Sept 18th if you decide to do that one. Have a great day on June 28th!

Hey Bruce,
Yess, I'm booked for Bob's day on Sept 18th with the Turbo S, see you there !

[Bruce H.]

Hey Bruce,
Yess, I'm booked for Bob's day on Sept 18th with the Turbo S, see you there !

Awesome! Buddy's stock ACR-E blew a 96.5 dbA there yesterday so it would seem Gen V's at least aren't going to pass at Tremblant anymore...unless testing methods aren't consistent from one day to the next.

[Bruce H.]

Hey Guys,

Many of you took an interest in helping me make the torturous decision to sell or keep the TA when deciding to order the '19 Turbo S and receiving it a year ago...and in hearing my comparison of the two on track. I'd like to give you an update from an unexpected 2nd side by side track comparo this week. Here's a quick excerpt comparing handling from last year's comparo on my home track after just 2 track days in the 911 at that time.



-TA VS 911 Turbo S at Mosport May 24th (2019)
But what I hadn't forgotten was the car's fantastic handling dynamics, and I had it dancing on the limits of grip very quickly. It was sunny and great weather at Mosport, another exception to an otherwise very wet month. Again the track was green from previous day's heavy rains so times were off. And since Pirelli hasn't made the stock Corsa tires available for over a year I had to make due with a heavily worn tire on the front right. I corded it on the 3rd afternoon session, recording my fastest time on the very last lap! Corsa...good to the last lap ;)

But what I really wanted to know was which car was fastest, same track, same day, same driver. Well, my results mirrored Randy Pobst's, and the 911 TS was a fraction of a second quicker than the TA, and it would have been even closer if the TA had fresher tires on it. The 911 absolutely explodes out of the hairpin and on to the back straight, topping out at 156 mph to the TA's 151. Three ACR-E track buddies were also there and a couple commented how the Turbo pulled so hard on them. But I could feel it just not as quick through the corners where the extra weight and street tire performance short-comings on track were obvious and not unexpected handicaps. Another reason to try a set of Sport cups on the 911 :)

As I ran these two track days in the 911 I've tried to analyze my impressions in order to explain them to you performance aficionados and it's been really tough to do that. I had hoped that running the TA back to back would make the differences obvious and easy to describe. But what I've found is two cars that couldn't be more different from each other in so many ways, yet be so similar on track. Yes the TA is faster in the corners, 911 quicker out of corners and down a straight, both phenomenal under braking, with both even exhibiting the same wiggle under high speed threshold braking. Both tending to light under-steer on corner entry that is easily managed with a similar throttle lift or slight trail-braking, superbly balanced at mid corner, and an inclination to throttle over-steer slightly if provoked on corner exit. Neither car has a single detectable vice. Where the TA definitely does telegraph more feedback to the driver, the 911 seems to provide everything that's needed. I had the 911's P-Zeros quickly singing through a number of corners, and could balance it into mid-corner under or over-steer with the loud pedal at will, just like I can the TA. Both cars are really progressive on the limits of grip, with the 911 even more-so I think, and that's perhaps the attribute that I value most. A 911 GT3 is a little more tricky at the limit, and the GT3RS requires really fast hands on the wheel, but the 911 Turbo S provides all the entertainment and reward I need at the limit. I mostly credit the new P-Zeros for this and it'll be interesting to see how that changes with Sport Cups...not too much I hope.



That was actually the last day I ran the TA on track as I focused on probing the limits of the new toy. The 911's P-Zeros got quickly replaced after that comparo by wider Michelin Sport Cup 2's, and with predictable improvements in performance. This past week I had my first track day, an open lapping pass anywhere day restricted to fast track rats. The plan was to finish off last year's Sport Cups, which had started to heat cycle out on the last day last fall. I unexpectedly corded one rear in the first session, which was basically a 75 minute enduro with 2 pits to bleed down tire pressures. So I drove home, lowered the TA from its winter storage, and back to the track on it's worn Corsas that had yet to be replaced.

This time there was a very noticeable difference running the two cars back to back. When the Turbo got its Sport Cups last year the additional grip and my increasing confidence revealed an unsettled rear that wanted to step out under aggressive corner entry and trail braking. As the brake pedal is gently released and you transition to feed in some maintenance throttle the rear becomes unsettled enough to step out, even before the brake is fully released. It's brief, repeatable and at the limit it seems impossible to prevent no matter how carefully you feather off the brake. Perhaps left foot braking is the required technique, a skill I have not tried to learn. So the answer is just to brake more in the brake zone and do less trail braking. Fine.

So then I headed out in the TA, shifting its excellent manual with about the same familiarity and comfort as breathing, and I'm running typical hot laps before I can even get the pressures bled down. First day on track in a full year, first drive in 6 months, old Corsas...and the car felt so hooked up. It honestly felt more like when I tracked an ACR-E there last year with grip that defies description. The rear was glued under the same aggressive trail braking that unsettled the 911.

The over-whelming impression when tracking the TA, and I'm sure all Gen V variants, is the entire car is designed and built with a laser focus on track performance, and then, and only then, is consideration given to the varying degree of creature comforts offered. The purity of its purpose and execution I just find to be a revelation and something I'm sure 911 GT3, 3RS and 2RS track rats also feel. And the Viper is also so full of character that it really is a standout.

My second session in the TA ended with several laps behind a GT3 and GT3RS that were sticking together. By this time there were so few cars to hunt on track that I just tucked in behind them and enjoyed the view! We chatted in the hot pits and exchanged compliments. I checked my left rear tire as it felt a little off and found it ready to cord. I had driven the tires off of two cars on a beautiful sunny one day...what could be better!

And a big thank you to all those that said buy the 911...but do not sell the Viper. You were right. Maybe one day, but not yet!

Bruce

[Dr.Ron]

Great report!
So that day, what were the times like?

[Bruce H.]

Great report!
So that day, what were the times like?

I've never seen so many really fast cars there on the same day. Fast guys looked slow next to some of them. A LOT of race cars pulled out of trailers. I don't know if you know the track but I got passed on the inside going down the infamous T2 like I was standing still by a 911 GT something or other. On track for my first time with a 720S which was fast. I didn't have my logger set up but I would have been a couple of seconds off my usual times because of worn tires on both, so I was probably running 1:34's. Some would have been into the 1:25's or lower for sure.

[Brian GTS]

I like Porsches, but could never be without a Viper. Think about it this way.....even if you keep the TA and don't drive as often as you do now, the TA will NOT depreciate by much....or maybe not at all? Keep the TA and if finances are in check, add the Turbo S and you'll have the best of both worlds!

[Bruce H.]

I bought the Turbo S a year ago. This was an update!

[TA Two Oh]

Thanks for the follow up, Bruce. As usual, your impressions provided a lot of interesting detail about both cars.

Presumably you've alerted local tire shops to stock up on front and rear tires for you. Fronts for the TA, which wear twice as fast as the rears. And rears for the TS, which wear twice as fast as the fronts.

[Bruce H.]

^ Hey Doug, definitely time to order more tires! I wasn't sure if the tracks would even open this season and was prepared to just street drive on what I had...I mean they had lots of tread if you ignored the edges!

I thought of you at the track, with you having an R8, when a white R8 with a blue center hood stripe passed me. I wondered if that colour scheme indicates a special track version, or maybe it was just modified.

Bruce

[Brian GTS]

I bought the Turbo S a year ago. This was an update!

Whoops, missed that! I need more sleep. :)

[TA Two Oh]

^ Hey Doug, definitely time to order more tires! I wasn't sure if the tracks would even open this season and was prepared to just street drive on what I had...I mean they had lots of tread if you ignored the edges!

I thought of you at the track, with you having an R8, when a white R8 with a blue center hood stripe passed me. I wondered if that colour scheme indicates a special track version, or maybe it was just modified.

Bruce

Passed you? In an R8? You mean going the other way? Ha!

White with a center hood stripe is one of the rare SRZ Competition Edition cars. (Schnell Rasch Zusehends) Cool!

OK, I completely made that up. A surprising number of people on the R8 forum mod their cars. And on my last day at Spring Mountain there was an R8 Race Car (LMS GT3 perhaps? I didn't get a chance to ask the guy) that was wicked fast. Hands down the fastest car there that day. So, there are some quick ones around.

I did just receive some good news though. After having our first two track days cancelled, just today we got word that our remaining 5 days are a go. For now at least, with some restrictions.

I'm so glad that we talked you into talking your wife out of selling your TA.

[Bruce H.]

^Haha, I was hoping it was a special hi-po model but heavily modded works for me too! I found out the 911 GT whatever that passed me like I was standing still going down T2 was a GT3 with an 800+ whp 4L twin turbo built and swapped engine in it, massive wing and slicks! He registered for 5 days straight there through 3 different clubs and I was target practice on his 3rd day and buddies in ACR-E and a GT2RS were target practice on day 2 and 4. I fear my ego could take a serious beating if heavily modded cars start dominating advanced events. Heck, I might even have to drop down to intermediate run groups to still kick some butt :lol2:

Glad to hear your events can now resume. And yes, Deb once again proved to be a keeper!

Bruce

[Snakebit10]

Bruce was it this GT3 RS? This is the only GT3 RS TT that I know of and its a one-off....May need AZ or Stradman for this beast.

43932

[Bruce H.]

Well that certainly looks the business but it was apparently a GT3, not RS, or should I say it used to be a GT3 and now it's some kind of Frankenstein!