To cage or not

[Pappy]

A lot of our community runs high speed events such as the standing half mile (and some high speed road courses) in their Vipers without a full cage. Each of us has to weigh the expense, weight, and hassle of adding a cage against the probability of a serious incident. Actually, the probability of a catastrophic event is quite low. However, when it does happen, the odds of survival could be much lower. The GTR accident at a Wannagofast event in New Orleans last weekend is a little sobering. 216 mph in the lights and a bumpy shut down area over which the driver had no control resulted in a fatality. The car in question only had a bolt-in 4-point roll bar and a 4-pount harness and no Hans. Social media reports that the driver was partially ejected in the violent roll-over. Something to think about.

http://www.thedrive.com/news/23767/nissan-gt-r-driver-dead-after-200-mph-crash-at-questionable-airstrip-race

Pappy

[steve911]

That is the exact reason why I bought my comp coupe. I know that everybody cannot afford one, but with all of the track days that I do, and some of the tracks that I am on are not too forgiving, I wanted piece of mind.

I ran many Years without a cage. I was never foolish enough though, to run only a four point harness and no hans. For me it was always six point team tech with the hans and a proper helmet. And most of all a sincere prayer to the man upstairs before every event, and one afterwards thanking him for keeping me safe.


A lot of our community runs high speed events such as the standing high mile (and some high speed road courses) in their Vipers without a full cage. Each of us has to weigh the expense, weight, and hassle of adding a cage against the probability of a serious incident. Actually, the probability of a catastrophic event is quite low. However, when it does happen, the odds of survival could be much lower. The GTR accident at a Wannagofast event in New Orleans last weekend is a little sobering. 216 mph in the lights and a bumpy shut down area over which the driver had no control resulted in a fatality. The car in question only had a bolt-in 4-point roll bar and a 4-pount harness and no Hans. Social media reports that the driver was partially ejected in the violent roll-over. Something to think about.

http://www.thedrive.com/news/23767/nissan-gt-r-driver-dead-after-200-mph-crash-at-questionable-airstrip-race

Pappy

[Racingswh]

A lot of our community runs high speed events such as the standing half mile (and some high speed road courses) in their Vipers without a full cage. Each of us has to weigh the expense, weight, and hassle of adding a cage against the probability of a serious incident. Actually, the probability of a catastrophic event is quite low. However, when it does happen, the odds of survival could be much lower. The GTR accident at a Wannagofast event in New Orleans last weekend is a little sobering. 216 mph in the lights and a bumpy shut down area over which the driver had no control resulted in a fatality. The car in question only had a bolt-in 4-point roll bar and a 4-pount harness and no Hans. Social media reports that the driver was partially ejected in the violent roll-over. Something to think about.

http://www.thedrive.com/news/23767/nissan-gt-r-driver-dead-after-200-mph-crash-at-questionable-airstrip-race

Pappy

You thinking about a cage in the ACR-E?

[kriskyk]

I know this is going come off as a bit cold, but the guy had 200 mph+ in a half mile car, with a parachute and was running a 4 point harness, rollbar and no HANS?

[Pappy]

You thinking about a cage in the ACR-E?

Probably not, but I think Arizona might be considering it for his 9 liter. I have a NASA Spec Focus with full cage, and I am building a high powered, light weight track car that that already has a full cage. That car is very rigid but has no "crush zones", which I'm afraid can also be a problem in a high speed frontal impact. I have a TeamTech six-point harness in the ACR and I don't track it very hard or often, so with that one I guess I'm in the "pay your dime, take your chances" mode.

Pappy

Edit: If you got to see the GTR crash video before YouTube took it down you would see at the very end that two high-powered canister projectiles launched from the wreck with enough velocity to tear your head off if they hit you. They went about 200 feet in the air. I think they may have been NOS bottles.

[catwood]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaWIPngK_vg

The one in the article is gone, found another one

[RedTanRT/10]

Pappy, similar comments to Steve911. I had a G4 ACR with 600 plus at the wheels. Out here at tracks like Fontana and Willow Springs I hit 155-160, way too fast in a street car. I had a Ross Murray roll bar, but no side protection. CC has a full cage, cell, fire etc and I feel so much safer.

[Arizona Vipers]

Man. That is horrible. That could have been any of us, he didn't even hit a wall. Just lost control at high speed which could be any of us, not even your fault. Simple mechanical failure, or hitting oil/coolant on the track etc. When we see stuff like this we should always post to show everyone what could happen, it's easy to forget.
This is the main reason I didn't take my 9 liter to COTA a couple weeks ago, hitting 180-190mph+ on the back straight every lap with no cage ins't my idea of fun.
I'm caging my 9 liter in December and retiring the ACR. From my calculations the cage will weigh 130lbs so with gutting everything I won't be adding much weight and will be able to drive much faster with a huge decrease in the risk of death. If you track your regularly, especially at any high speed track, (and worse one with concrete walls everywhere) all it takes is a simple tire failure, differential lockup, seized motor, hitting an oil or coolant spot from the asshole in front of you, ETC ETC, your DEAD.

[Arizona Vipers]

Do we know what the cause of death was yet? I heard decapitation? Would a HANS have prevented this?

[ACRucrazy]

It was only a matter of time at a WGF event. Those speeds... Look at what the NHRA requires for 1/4 mile. It’s a shame really :/

[pMak26]

Scariest track event I've ever seen are the "slipstream racing events" out here, usually held on Pocono Raceway's front stretch. It's a roll racing event so cars regularly approach or surpass 200mph. These are guys who don't have a clue how to do up the D-ring on their $50 helmets. They've never even heard of a HANS device and no car has harnesses anyway, just factory seatbelts. It is down right scary. I tell anyone I know to please stay away from these types of events as it's only a matter of time. Worse yet is the spectators are somewhat near the action being allowed on the pit-wall.

Anyway, if its a full time track toy, then absolutely cage it. If you drive it on the street still, it's hard to justify. What I then say is be more reasonable with your mods. Don't go full slicks, big power adders, etc. Keep the speed of the car relative to the safety of the car. Modern cars are incredibly safe from the factory when considering the speeds and impacts they are designed for. When you 3x the HP and grip of the car, you are far exceeding what the factory crash structure was designed to.

[kriskyk]

Pretty sure modern cars collision safety considerations are more geared towards legal speed limits and not track duties... If your on track get the appropriate safety gear...

[Snakebit10]

Man. That is horrible. That could have been any of us, he didn't even hit a wall. Just lost control at high speed which could be any of us, not even your fault. Simple mechanical failure, or hitting oil/coolant on the track etc. When we see stuff like this we should always post to show everyone what could happen, it's easy to forget.
This is the main reason I didn't take my 9 liter to COTA a couple weeks ago, hitting 180-190mph+ on the back straight every lap with no cage ins't my idea of fun.
I'm caging my 9 liter in December and retiring the ACR. From my calculations the cage will weigh 130lbs so with gutting everything I won't be adding much weight and will be able to drive much faster with a huge decrease in the risk of death. If you track your regularly, especially at any high speed track, (and worse one with concrete walls everywhere) all it takes is a simple tire failure, differential lockup, seized motor, hitting an oil or coolant spot from the asshole in front of you, ETC ETC, your DEAD.

Wow 130 lbs for full roll cage. Surprised there aren't lighter options for race cars. Sad that you will have to gut the car to offset the added weight. Just something about a full weight street car running race car times that just special. But for safety and peace of mind its worth the added weight of a roll cage. I imagine roll cage and gutting would put you in a faster class right?

[steve911]

Someone mentioned the Slip Stream events out east. I just watched a couple of You Tube promo vids from that outfit. Almost to a person everyone was in shorts and T shirts. I also saw a lot of "$50 helmets", and 3 point belts. With the speeds that some of the cars were doing, one wrong move and instant "Mort". (Military slang from the French word mort(e) meaning DEAD).

For those who do track days on established circuits, its long sleeves, long pants and closed toed shoes. I couldn't believe the casualness of the event. Then there are those who complain about added weight that safety equipment adds. I would bet that 99% don't have the driving skills to make use of 100% of the viper's capability and notice what a few extra pounds added from safety equipment will affect their lap times.

I have been in EMS for over 40 years now, both in civilian world as well as competition. What I have seen on the freeway as well as the racetrack over the years might cause some to "hang up the helmet". Even the best built race car wont save everyone. But, spending the money on the basics for a "Good" Helmet and Harness, wearing proper clothing just might prevent that one injury where you end up having to be fed with a spoon for the rest of your life.

My current helmet which will expire in 2020 cost me $1000 when it was new. Barring any major changes in Technology, my next one will be almost $1700. My HANS is an integral component. I have been using Curt Tucker's Team Tech Harnesses in various versions for over 12 years. They were put to use once several years ago. I wore the bruises on my chest and shoulders like a badge of honor knowing that it could been much worse had I been using a 3 point or some other restraint.

Anyway, my advice would be to spend the money on yourself before you spend it on the car if doing ANY kind of Competition events.

Steve Anders

[ACRucrazy]

This video also reminds me how great the caged race cars are for safety.

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1076214_viper-cup-driver-talks-about-his-horrific-crash-video



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XhVObV_1PE

[steve911]

This video also reminds me how great the caged race cars are for safety.

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1076214_viper-cup-driver-talks-about-his-horrific-crash-video



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XhVObV_1PE

I was at RA and pitted directly across from David when the crash happened. Short of harness rash and soreness he was uninjured. His car collapsed all the way down to the cage. Lord knows how small it would have gotten had it been in street car trim yet.

[kriskyk]

Wow...was that viper fully caged or just a rollbar with x brace in the rear?

[AZTVR]

Wow...was that viper fully caged or just a rollbar with x brace in the rear?
Here is a photo of that specific car. You can see the left front upper part of the cage bar through the side window opening. Also added is a photo of another 2010 ACR-X3465334654

[stradman]

Interesting the actual roof/cockpit wasn't subjected to any impact by the looks of it, so can't quite say whether the cage in the cockpit prevented anything I guess. Still good that it was there though.

[dave6666]

Do we know what the cause of death was yet? I heard decapitation? Would a HANS have prevented this?

I've been following this on quite a few forums. As far as trustworthy forum information goes, I would call what I learned about this accident to be trustworthy. Info taken from first responders. First off, no harness and no cage. Just the factory lap belt. Yes he was decapitated. His head was still in his helmet which was about 50 yards from the car. One of his hands was found on the track. His abdominal area was not intact. Very gruesome.

There may of course be conflicting information to what I posted, that others consider to be trustworthy too. This isn't a contest so I do respect if someone says I heard something else etc etc. But yeah, we all have fast cars and have probably all driven fast even if you have a garage queen. So when this happens - some dude in a super badass car crashes hard and dies - evaluate your own safety in regards to thrill seeking or tracking. I have.

[Racingswh]

This was seats and harnesses only. I put her in so I know she was strapped in well. My Wife was lucky but she was fine. I personally have crashed anything and everything except a plane. With cages and without. I like cages, especially stout ones when you are smashing into others car to car. For DE where car to car is less frequent, as you can see, a roll cage may not be needed.

[Russ Oasis]

How much is your life worth? GET A CAGE. A GOOD ONE. Take it from David Pintaric. He says it all.

[Arizona Vipers]

I've been following this on quite a few forums. As far as trustworthy forum information goes, I would call what I learned about this accident to be trustworthy. Info taken from first responders. First off, no harness and no cage. Just the factory lap belt. Yes he was decapitated. His head was still in his helmet which was about 50 yards from the car. One of his hands was found on the track. His abdominal area was not intact. Very gruesome.

There may of course be conflicting information to what I posted, that others consider to be trustworthy too. This isn't a contest so I do respect if someone says I heard something else etc etc. But yeah, we all have fast cars and have probably all driven fast even if you have a garage queen. So when this happens - some dude in a super badass car crashes hard and dies - evaluate your own safety in regards to thrill seeking or tracking. I have.

Oh man that's horrible. Poor bastard and same with his family :( When I watched that video, you can hear an explosion before he crashed, I think that's what caused it. Car was tracking straight, then you hear a huge explosion then see the car roll. You can then see what looks like nitrous bottles shoot 200 feet in the air.

[Desert Venom Racer]

34723

Remnants of my 96GTS in 2002 after high speed crash into the tire wall at VIR. Coming out of a fast right hand turn, the rear end got loose and slid out onto the wet grass on the left side of the track. My car helicoptered across the track and into the armco on the right side of the track. I was the only car on the track at the time, simply trying to improve my lap time by a couple tenths of a second. The impact was broadside on the driver's side of the car, tore all driver side body panels, engine hood off the car. Was wearing race harnesses, arm restraints, HANS device that kept me inside the car. I got buzzed pretty good from my helmet hitting the rollcage bar directly above the driver door. My hands flew off the steering wheel and made impact with the ladder bar shown above (even with arm restraints) and actually resulted in some blood, but no broken bones. All I could think of was getting out of the car as fast as I could because I was afraid of fire which fortunately did not occur, although I did have a halon fire system in the car. To this day I do not know for sure what caused my car to break away, perhaps some fluid on the track or a rear tire failure. In any event, accidents happen and you want the maximum safety equipment in your car, including a fire suppression system.

[ACR Steve]

I think you knew the answer before you asked it .

Cage is the best move you can make for safety the only issues I can see for not doing is cost in doing a real proper cage or you drive it on the street. If cost isn't an issue and you are not planning to drive it on the road ,well then what are you waiting for

[FSTENUF]

34796
I put this in mine after seeing a nasty crash and life flight take him away at my local track. I know it's not a full cage but it better then nothing I hope I never need it.

[GTS Dean]

34723
Remnants of my 96GTS in 2002 after high speed crash into the tire wall at VIR.

Damn Frank - look at that toasty front caliper!!!

[Toxic]

I'm another for pro-cage. I ran uncaged for almost 20 years at HPDE. Ran a roll bar in a few cars up until 2011. Ran a Viper at TT and HPDE since the mid 2000's. I had an ACR-X clone built and on a day it had rained on and off at Road Atlanta I was stupid and apexed too early after a pass just prior to a corner during a practice session. I almost caught the induced oversteer but put the rear driver's side into the grass and off I went spinning at over 80 mph in the wet grass. Telemetry says I was still going 68 mph sideways when the driver's side hit the wall. I'm glad I had the halo seat, full cage, Hans on with harnesses. I walked away from a totaled car with nothing more than a slightly bruised ankle.

I'm sure anyone already reading this knows the basics. We've all heard get two feet in. Another tip is once you're along from the ride and your input doesn't matter, get your hands off the wheel and inside your seat shell as best you can. I'm convinced I saved both arms/wrists/hands by following this training.

It was worth the time and money. The more you track, especially as you begin to move into wheel to wheel racing, the more likely Murphy is going to strike. It's just a matter of time before something fails, something is on the track, or you make a minor mistake that at speed creates a major problem.

[pMak26]

I think you knew the answer before you asked it .

Cage is the best move you can make for safety the only issues I can see for not doing is cost in doing a real proper cage or you drive it on the street. If cost isn't an issue and you are not planning to drive it on the road ,well then what are you waiting for

x1000

I'm pro cage if the car will always be driven with a helmet on. If you drive your car on the street still, depending on the cage a minor accident could be what kills you if you aren't wearing a helmet. Just something everyone should keep in mind when deciding to cage or not to cage.

[Skolnick89]

Anyone know what rollover protection 1998 GTS has?

I only plan on doing an occasional track day. Car only has modified intake and exhaust. Street tires.

Not sure about adding cage, belts, Hans.

Had a 88 911. Started down that road and it became a full race car. Lol

[Slithr]

I walked away from a totaled car with nothing more than a slightly bruised ankle.

If I recall, fire is also a good motivator when exiting with bruised ankle, someone was looking out for you!