Who makes sells the nice stone gaurds

[Otis Campbell]

I was told that someone here makes or sells some really high-end carbon fiber stone guards for my Gen 3 coupe. Any leads?

Thanks!

[J TNT]

Viper Specialty makes them , not sure they are carbon fiber.......

[Steve-Indy]

Actually, the "high end" stone guards for Gen III and IV Vipers came from Parts Rack. I am not sure they are still available.

I THINK that you are referring to those seen on the Snake Skin Green ACR seen in this thread.
https://driveviper.com/forums/threads/threads/2072-Stone-guards

There are also less obvious types costing considerably less out there.

[Viper Specialty]

Correct. PartsRack sells the Carbon version. We sell the black plastic "next to invisible" version.

[Otis Campbell]

Thanks guys!

[Slithr]

Thanks guys!

If you don't have a lift, you might want to roll it over on its side to make the install easier :D

[Otis Campbell]

It's still on its roof from last week. I'll just read the instructions upside-down.

[06SRTCoupe]

I was told that someone here makes or sells some really high-end carbon fiber stone guards for my Gen 3 coupe. Any leads?

Thanks!

Otis,

Not sure if you have made a decision on the stone guards but the ones from Viper Speciality are awesome! Simple to install and they are barely noticeable. They are sleek and run with the lines of the car. Pretty much look factory. They are also much much cheaper than the carbon ones.

I had them on my 06 Coupe. I sold that car and, as soon as I bought my 09 Coupe, I bought another set of these guards and had them over a week before I had the damn car. That is how much I wanted them. :smilielol:

Oh and, they 100% work and protect your car.

[Viper Specialty]

ZR Thompson

He is a site supporter just look in ht venders list and click on there site.

I don't think there carbon but they do have the best price I have seen.

Some of them out there are just silly money.


ZR's are cheaper sure... they are also much smaller, and use adhesive tape in the rear. Ours include additional spacers and pins so that no tape is needed, and ours are significantly larger with regard to protected areas, but not visually distracting ones.

To each their own... but we did it first :P

[SA Heat]

I gotta vouch for Viper Specialty's guards. They were easy to install and look like something the factory should/could have done (barely noticeable and they work).

[Viper Specialty]

I'm not knocking the higher price ones.

I'm sure there was a lot of time and money spent in R&D with a produced as complicated as this one.lol

and why won't the bigger one cost more there bigger, right.

Ooof. Sarcasm.

Given someone who has "Machinist" in their username, I would think you could appreciate the fact that it takes longer to machine and requires much more material, when you effectively near double the size of the product. Plus, we have to contend with a secondary material and two additional processes for the spacers. Materials are not free, nor is machine time or shelf space. He supplies (4) pieces. We supply (6), along with attaching pins. Our costs to produce are higher, there is no way around it. Do we also charge additional overhead for having a superior product, along with a warranty and first-mover advantage? Uh, yeah, of course.

We also have to absorb all of the wasted time and money that has gone to countless customers who bought our products to use as templates to cut their own out of plexi or similar for their friends, effectively hurting additional sales potential. And worse yet, some of those same people then returned them for credit before we caught on to what was happening.

People have choices.... but truth be told I don't know why I am even bothering replying to this lol

[06SRTCoupe]

I'm not knocking the higher price ones.

I'm sure there was a lot of time and money spent in R&D with a produced as complicated as this one.lol

and why won't the bigger one cost more there bigger, right.

Your grammar is wonderful...for a 3rd grader. You even edited your comment so you had more than one crack at it. Impressive! :smilielol:

[ViperSRT]

Just so you know Dan I made mine out of Lexan back in 2003 long before any were on the market. So if you see some made from a clear plastic it does not mean a copycat.

[Viper Specialty]

Just so you know Dan I made mine out of Lexan back in 2003 long before any were on the market. So if you see some made from a clear plastic it does not mean a copycat.

LOL, I was not implying you.

But... when I get return shipments where customers [and I use the term customer loosely] were dumb enough to leave their cutting scraps in the box, or the sharpie marks on the product, I think its safe to assume what happened. :)

[06SRTCoupe]

No R&D costs? So, the parts just magically appeared and they were the exact fit? Now that is impressive!

[06SRTCoupe]

It isn't an attack if what is being said is factual. Let's review shall we?
1. Your grammar is awful. Evidence: All of your posts in this thread. 2. Stone guards do take R&D to develop. Evidence: matter cannot just appear in the shape of a perfectly made stone guard for a Dodge Viper. This is also learned in school.

So, it seems you need to go back to school for grammar AND science? This last part is merely an educated guess based on your replies in this thread.

If you have a problem with what people are charging for a product, then don't buy it. Make your own since you have such an issue with it. Or buy from someone else. This is capitalism.

[Viper Specialty]

You are correct in that I do understand time and material costs. It's what i do for a living. I am just a small job shop but there are times I see products made for Vipers "Not just your own" at prices higher than I would charge for a one off prototype part coming thru my shop.

In the case of this part there are no R&D costs. In the past I have read posts from you defending the cost on one thing or another because of said costs. Although this is not always the case I would be willing to wager that some of this R&D was a product of trial and error during a job already paid for by a customer.

In the case of these parts just about anybody can go and buy $10.00 to $15.00 of material and with normal hand tools and some sand paper whip up a set of these in under an hour.

To be honest maybe I am being a little hard on Viper Specialty. This comes from a purchase I made from you a number of years back for a upgraded water pump for the GEN 2 Paxton air to water intercooler system. If I remember correctly the water pump was drop shipped from the manufacture so there was no cost of stocking this item. There was nothing in the box added by your company. No connectors or instructions but yet after going to the manufactures web site. Your product was exactly $100.00 more than there retail price. Don't quote me on this but I think there price was under $200.00. So that's a pretty hefty mark up wouldn't you say. So this cost must have come from R&D because you wouldn't have just ordered the largest pump on this manufactures web site. Would you?

Maybe I'm wrong and you have miles of data and a dozen other pumps you purchased setting around to do all the testing that took so much shop time to justify the mark up you charged.

Or is just the Viper tax.


Well, thank you for degrading what my time is worth.

I am curious how there are no R&D costs. So, the DAY I spent producing each prototype after multiple attempts of either over-cutting or not being happy, the ~4 versions it took to get the machining correct on each type, dealing with mistakes, accounting for fitment on a product that has a different material flexibility between proto and final, my shipping expenses for the product literally 8x across the state, a complete run of "OOOPS" I had to eat right at the start because of a version number/email oversight, the rear Coupe fascia I had to buy since customers wanted these in dead of winter while no coupes were available in Buffalo, my driving and gas expenses going back and forth all over the earth between different machine shops I deal with... all of those were my imagination? Is that right? Shit, I probably had to sell 100 sets just to make a dime with all the BS that went into these originally. I think you also conveniently forgot that I don't own the CNC or the Water-Jet at this point... so what about their profit margins too?

And as for your comment on the Paxton pump. Well, that's how it works. After including the fittings and accounting for shipping, I make about $90-100 bucks on those pump upgrades at last check, and that product is $374.00 currently. So... do the math. That's about a 25% profit margin, of which 3.5% is gone right after I charge your card. That's pretty typical, nothing crazy... and given that most of the time there is a ton of phone time and explaining on how to fit, wire, and connect anything Paxton related, that's exactly where it should be. Hell, other vendors sell substantially inferior pumps for a little less, but you know they paid peanuts for them since its a mass-produced Bosch product. They are making a substantially higher profit margin than I am, the only difference is that they are harder to source for an end user so most people cant figure out what the margin is... so, where is the outrage over them?

I also just checked, and that order was NOT drop shipped, it was stocked here, and was shipped with your cooler. I went back and re-read all of the emails, and honestly, I think the vast majority of your panty-twisting was the fact that it took two weeks to ship you the order, because you ordered the product the day after we ran out of stock and had to wait for another resupply. I am sure that is playing into your "perspective", since the entire time you were short and hurried like it was my fault you were short on time.

Like 06SRTCoupe said... there is nothing stopping you from doing this yourself. If you don't want to pay for my time, then go out and order a half-dozen pumps yourself, locate the fittings, and see what you can make work on your car.

Given how small this market is, I would like to know who is going to pay my bills when I don't charge for my time adequately. You sound just like a guy who is used to producing things 1000 at a time on slim margins, or charges straight time on everything he does as to make money on virtually everything with no risk. That is controlled overhead, something that someone like me does not have the luxury of. I have to balance the scales on what is easy, so that what is hard doesn't sink my ship. I have hundreds of thousands of dollars of un-billable time and costs sunk into locating unavailable components, software/programming oddities, reverse engineering, sensor calibrations, oddball tooling, dead-end products and prototypes... hell, the proper TAPE & ZIP TIES to wrap shit on your car so you cannot tell it was ever worked on.

Do you? Because none of that comes without a price tag. If you want to try and match what I have invested, feel free. Or, just buy a Lambo, because that would be a more fun option, and you would be further ahead. What we are discussing here is exactly the problem with much of the automotive market. Convenient omission of actual time/costs invested, knowledge, and overhead. Just because you can do it yourself or are willing to accept a sub-par product by favoring dollars over quality, does not mean that everyone else wants to, is willing, or is able. Please don't put whatever value you have on your time, on mine or anyone else for that matter.

[BlknBlu]

I purchased the Viper Specialty ones when they first came out for my 09 ACR. Most of the time i forget they are even there and for as small as they are, they are extremely effective.

Bruce

[Gen3CoupeTX]

Wait, wait, wait ... Am I to believe that folks like Dan run a reputable business and expect to make a living doing so? This changes everything ;-)

[Viper Specialty]

Wait, wait, wait ... Am I to believe that folks like Dan run a reputable business and expect to make a living doing so? This changes everything ;-)

http://battlefordsskatingclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/awesome-george-carlin-memes-29-best-george-carlin-images-on-pinterest.jpg

[Steve-Indy]

Guys, while I realize that their are many differences of style and taste among our group...I would humbly suggest that we call off this pissing contest and stick closer to the topic proposed by Otis Campbell.

FACT: ALL OEM tires that were used on Vipers from 2008 until the end in 2017 were indeed high performance, "summer" tires...let alone the various track variants.

FACT: The above mention tires are "sticky" when hot. Thus, they throw rocks...hence the paint damage done to the undersides of the side sills.

SOLUTION: Stone guards. All of the discussed variants that I have seen or installed help to diminish the damage done. Road or track surface certainly introduce compounding variables.

CHOICE: Pick a type of stone guard that suits your own taste...and, be thankful that we have our vendor friends around to help solve some of the problems that owners face.

Best regards to all.

[SilverACR]

This is the second thread that went this way in the G4 section recently.

[TheMadMachinist]

Well, thank you for degrading what my time is worth.

I am curious how there are no R&D costs. So, the DAY I spent producing each prototype after multiple attempts of either over-cutting or not being happy, the ~4 versions it took to get the machining correct on each type, dealing with mistakes, accounting for fitment on a product that has a different material flexibility between proto and final, my shipping expenses for the product literally 8x across the state, a complete run of "OOOPS" I had to eat right at the start because of a version number/email oversight, the rear Coupe fascia I had to buy since customers wanted these in dead of winter while no coupes were available in Buffalo, my driving and gas expenses going back and forth all over the earth between different machine shops I deal with... all of those were my imagination? Is that right? Shit, I probably had to sell 100 sets just to make a dime with all the BS that went into these originally. I think you also conveniently forgot that I don't own the CNC or the Water-Jet at this point... so what about their profit margins too?

And as for your comment on the Paxton pump. Well, that's how it works. After including the fittings and accounting for shipping, I make about $90-100 bucks on those pump upgrades at last check, and that product is $374.00 currently. So... do the math. That's about a 25% profit margin, of which 3.5% is gone right after I charge your card. That's pretty typical, nothing crazy... and given that most of the time there is a ton of phone time and explaining on how to fit, wire, and connect anything Paxton related, that's exactly where it should be. Hell, other vendors sell substantially inferior pumps for a little less, but you know they paid peanuts for them since its a mass-produced Bosch product. They are making a substantially higher profit margin than I am, the only difference is that they are harder to source for an end user so most people cant figure out what the margin is... so, where is the outrage over them?

I also just checked, and that order was NOT drop shipped, it was stocked here, and was shipped with your cooler. I went back and re-read all of the emails, and honestly, I think the vast majority of your panty-twisting was the fact that it took two weeks to ship you the order, because you ordered the product the day after we ran out of stock and had to wait for another resupply. I am sure that is playing into your "perspective", since the entire time you were short and hurried like it was my fault you were short on time.

Like 06SRTCoupe said... there is nothing stopping you from doing this yourself. If you don't want to pay for my time, then go out and order a half-dozen pumps yourself, locate the fittings, and see what you can make work on your car.

Given how small this market is, I would like to know who is going to pay my bills when I don't charge for my time adequately. You sound just like a guy who is used to producing things 1000 at a time on slim margins, or charges straight time on everything he does as to make money on virtually everything with no risk. That is controlled overhead, something that someone like me does not have the luxury of. I have to balance the scales on what is easy, so that what is hard doesn't sink my ship. I have hundreds of thousands of dollars of un-billable time and costs sunk into locating unavailable components, software/programming oddities, reverse engineering, sensor calibrations, oddball tooling, dead-end products and prototypes... hell, the proper TAPE & ZIP TIES to wrap shit on your car so you cannot tell it was ever worked on.

Do you? Because none of that comes without a price tag. If you want to try and match what I have invested, feel free. Or, just buy a Lambo, because that would be a more fun option, and you would be further ahead. What we are discussing here is exactly the problem with much of the automotive market. Convenient omission of actual time/costs invested, knowledge, and overhead. Just because you can do it yourself or are willing to accept a sub-par product by favoring dollars over quality, does not mean that everyone else wants to, is willing, or is able. Please don't put whatever value you have on your time, on mine or anyone else for that matter.

I in no way meant to degrade or devalue your worth or your time. I stand corrected on the water pump I only mentioned it as an explanation of what got me started on the R&D thing. I was wrong for bringing it up.

Being that my business is wholesale and very competitive with jobs being bid and often times many of the same things you mentioned do a rise. With extra costs having to be absorbed due to not being able to pass them on to the customer unlike your retail business. So to stay afloat in this area one needs to be very resourceful and I think that this fact has made me a little jaded.

You have my sincere apologies sir.

As they say if you get the job you quoted you are most likely the lowest bid so your losing before you even started.

[Otis Campbell]

Threads like this make me not want to ask for suggestions on here. Aren't we all supposed to be snakey-brothers?

[06SRTCoupe]

You should go check the Viper Alley out. :smilielol:

[SA Heat]

You should go check the Viper Alley out. :smilielol:

This... the sensitive types wouldn't last 10 minutes over there.

[SilverACR]

You should go check the Viper Alley out. :smilielol:

Do vendors belittle potential or existing customers over there? I’m blown away that a customer had to apologize and be the bigger person here. The vendon should have simply stated “hey, we make a fantastic part and we have a lot of time and work in it, so I’m sorry you find the cost a little high. We’ll see what we can do in the future while maintaining a high standard and exceptional customer experience.” Yep maybe BS, but at least it doesn’t put off potential customers...

[06SRTCoupe]

This... the sensitive types wouldn't last 10 minutes over there.

Amen brother.


Do vendors belittle potential or existing customers over there? I’m blown away that a customer had to apologize and be the bigger person here. The vendon should have simply stated “hey, we make a fantastic part and we have a lot of time and work in it, so I’m sorry you find the cost a little high. We’ll see what we can do in the future while maintaining a high standard and exceptional customer experience.” Yep maybe BS, but at least it doesn’t put off potential customers...

So customers should be allowed to just bash a statement by a vendor with a condescending attitude and laugh at them for it...and not expect a response? That and this guy brought up a private matter between said vendor and blasted it all over this forum. Get a clue...the vendor was not in the wrong here.

[SilverACR]

I got a clue and I’m not saying the customer is right in either of the last two threads that died this way, but WTF... I can picture the dealings with a vendor like this on something more important than mudflaps...

[SilverACR]

To try and add value to this thread OP. While you are investigating which stone gaurds to get you can double up painters tape on the wheel well lip when you are tracking, autocrossing, drag racing, or what ever. I have seen both the carbon fiber ones from Parts rack and the ones Dans made. Both look good and protect the sill paint. In my opinion the smaller ones Dan offers look better, but a lot of people like the carbon fiber look, so it comes down to your preference. I have seen viper owners tape their wheel wells just to go on a long highway drive. Not pretty, but it’ll get you by until you get your gaurds. I have clear bra on my sills and that works great for the parts you can easily see, but the lip inside gets the heck beaten out of it and I too am considering gaurds.

[Viper Specialty]

Sorry for the delay... big stuff to do. Big stuff. :P




Do vendors belittle potential or existing customers over there? I’m blown away that a customer had to apologize and be the bigger person here. The vendon should have simply stated “hey, we make a fantastic part and we have a lot of time and work in it, so I’m sorry you find the cost a little high. We’ll see what we can do in the future while maintaining a high standard and exceptional customer experience.” Yep maybe BS, but at least it doesn’t put off potential customers...


Where exactly did I belittle this customer? If anything, the customer belittled me, and then apologized for it. No hard feelings on my end.

Maybe you dont know me, but I think just about anyone who has been around this market for a while knows that I say things like they are... I am not exactly known for hand-holding and nut-rubbing. But you know what? I solve problems and have a knowledge base that very few others do, and I help customers with problems that make other vendors queasy. If you are looking for a "Vendor-Hug", I am not your guy, and that's fine with me. I would rather solve your problem in ten minutes than jerk you off all day for a potential sale. I have other shit to do.



I got a clue and I’m not saying the customer is right in either of the last two threads that died this way, but WTF... I can picture the dealings with a vendor like this on something more important than mudflaps...

You can ask any of my customers who have spent more than ten bucks, and especially any of them who have had me build them something, that my customer service is beyond reproach. I regularly kill myself and go beyond for any of my "actual customers". But like anything, it has a disclaimer... don't expect 4 hours of my time on a Saturday afternoon unless you have bought something a little more than Stone Guards, unless I literally have nothing to do that day. Its a fact of life.


And for the record, the other thread was little more than me voicing my opinion on the topic, and someone taking something that had ZERO to do with them personally. I was put in a position where I know damn well I was not wrong, and was not going to stand down and pretend my opinion holds no weight because someone else chooses to ignore facts. And also for the record, one of the guys defending my position in *this* thread is one of the same guys I was arguing with in the other! Are we all not allowed to have opinions or stand our ground now...? I don't hold this stuff against any of you guys, and I would hope that someone who is completely uninvolved would not be getting their panties twisted over something not even directed towards them.

I would hate for some of you to debate politics with me or my friends... we would need to have a Tampon, Rope & Razor Grab Bag at the door. Sheesh.

[TheMadMachinist]

Dan,
I'm glade to hear there are no hard feelings as none where meant. What I so poorly attempted to do before was to put you on the spot about these R&D costs that you bring up. Yes they do exist and I wasn't trying to infer that that don't. Wouldn't you agree that the item we are discussing is not the most difficult to prototype. I know more often than not things as simple as this thing "looks" can get out of control for a myriad of reasons. Only to leave one thinking why I'm I doing this in the first place. It certainly isn't to get rich, right

You have on occasion made remarks about other products as being inferior to yours. But in many cases you don't mention why those other products are not as good as yours other than to just giving your opinion to that effect. If I'm in the market for a product or a service. I for one have no problem paying more for something that is truly a better value. But I need some facts to prove that one has more value than another. I don't believe this is unreasonable and I'm willing to bet you and most who read this would generally agree with this idea and no I'm not here asking you to waste any of your time trying to sell me a mud flap.

After reading what you wrote below and unless I'm missing something. I'm not seeing more value in your product. It seems more like you just having a little more than your share of the problems that are generally encountered with bringing a product to market. Do you really believe the customer should be the one to bear these costs? Please don't take this personal but maybe mud flaps are not your forte is all. You can't really believe your customers should have to pay for your miscalculations do you? Don't get me wrong if the market will bear it then more power to you and I mean that. I for one want you to be solvent as you and your business provide a needed service to the Viper community. At the same time being it is such a small market there isn't much competition to keep costs grounded.


So, the DAY I spent producing each prototype after multiple attempts of either over-cutting or not being happy, the ~4 versions it took to get the machining correct on each type, dealing with mistakes, accounting for fitment on a product that has a different material flexibility between proto and final, my shipping expenses for the product literally 8x across the state, a complete run of "OOOPS" I had to eat right at the start because of a version number/email oversight, the rear Coupe fascia I had to buy since customers wanted these in dead of winter while no coupes were available in Buffalo, my driving and gas expenses going back and forth all over the earth between different machine shops I deal with...

You also mentioned that you had people order and return your mud flaps after they clearly used them for templets. I would be as frustrated as you if I had that done to me. But just to be clear here are you saying that due to those situations it affected the price of your final product ? I would hope this would not be the case and if it was wouldn't a no refund policy on this item be a far better solution? Again no personal attack here and I'm not telling you how to run your business.

Dan to be honest I like your posts and there's nothing wrong with being confident and perhaps even a little cocky about ones ideas and products. But there needs to be some substance behind such an attitude. Would you not agree. It's this substance that I am questioning is all. Not you as a person and I am in no way questioning your character. But if I may be so bold you can be quite a character at times.

My apologies to the OP for derailing your thread

To 06SRTCoupe please just relax as the adults are trying to have a conversation.

[Viper Specialty]

You have on occasion made remarks about other products as being inferior to yours. But in many cases you don't mention why those other products are not as good as yours other than to just giving your opinion to that effect. If I'm in the market for a product or a service. I for one have no problem paying more for something that is truly a better value. But I need some facts to prove that one has more value than another. I don't believe this is unreasonable and I'm willing to bet you and most who read this would generally agree with this idea and no I'm not here asking you to waste any of your time trying to sell me a mud flap.

Dan to be honest I like your posts and there's nothing wrong with being confident and perhaps even a little cocky about ones ideas and products. But there needs to be some substance behind such an attitude. Would you not agree. It's this substance that I am questioning is all. Not you as a person and I am in no way questioning your character. But if I may be so bold you can be quite a character at times.

I do not see this to be the case at all, and I tend to beat people to death with details and information, except in some situations where specific information is exactly what I aim to NOT post. If you were to find an example, I can enlighten you further as to what the difference is, or why it is not specified. You have to remember, that especially when it comes to categories like tuning and software, it is both the ability to use the software at all, and also how well you know how to use it. My competition regularly ignores or is unaware of certain things in some of the tuning software, and drawing attention to those things specifically is contradictory to my success at being "better" at using it than they are. As long as I keep seeing them making the mistakes, why should I tell them how to fix it?

If by some chance you are referencing general "quality" comments or points, well, all I can say there is compare something we build to something another shop puts together. Look at the details. Everything is cleaned properly to the point of insanity here. Bolts are torqued properly, always, and protected/loctited where applicable. Everything is routed as cleanly as possible. We use the highest grade electrical equipment and practices, hoses, bolts, and gaskets available. We offer detail work and oddball products that nobody else does, because we view it as being the right way and cost be damned to make it right. You won't ever see something "can kicked down the road" come from my hands, and you won't see me sell you a product that causes more problems than it solves like so much of the aftermarket crap out there where you were better off leaving it alone. I have OCD when it comes to building things, and that is not an exaggeration. Anyone who has seen a car I have built can attest to it. And that... is the general difference. Its done right, every time... and at a level that you won't see from 99.999% of shops/builders out there. Hell, I have customers who I have asked to LET ME UPDATE things, and been told "NO!" on more than one occasion because they care far less about the fine details that don't truly matter than I do.




After reading what you wrote below and unless I'm missing something. I'm not seeing more value in your product. It seems more like you just having a little more than your share of the problems that are generally encountered with bringing a product to market. Do you really believe the customer should be the one to bear these costs? Please don't take this personal but maybe mud flaps are not your forte is all. You can't really believe your customers should have to pay for your miscalculations do you? Don't get me wrong if the market will bear it then more power to you and I mean that. I for one want you to be solvent as you and your business provide a needed service to the Viper community. At the same time being it is such a small market there isn't much competition to keep costs grounded.

So, the DAY I spent producing each prototype after multiple attempts of either over-cutting or not being happy, the ~4 versions it took to get the machining correct on each type, dealing with mistakes, accounting for fitment on a product that has a different material flexibility between proto and final, my shipping expenses for the product literally 8x across the state, a complete run of "OOOPS" I had to eat right at the start because of a version number/email oversight, the rear Coupe fascia I had to buy since customers wanted these in dead of winter while no coupes were available in Buffalo, my driving and gas expenses going back and forth all over the earth between different machine shops I deal with...


Again, I disagree, on both counts. How can you not see additional value in a more complicated, larger product that does a better job? Yes, it costs more, but its also a more complete final product. Just because someone else showed up with a cheaper, simpler product more than 6 years later, all of a sudden everything I have done needs to be revised? Nothing has changed for me, and if anything, my costs have gone up and I have left my prices exactly the same as they always have been. I think you are forgetting again that the other guy OWNS all of the equipment, and doesn't even have to absorb the second tier profit margin that I do. If anything, I think the situation has played out rather reasonably given the circumstance.

On the second topic, if I choose to make 4 revisions on something to make it a better product, that absolutely is part of the R&D costs, no different than a machined aluminum part with four revisions. The mistakes, with the exception of the e-mail, were NOT on my end, they were the machine shops getting a final product out of a new material to fit properly and/or not being happy with how it looked when installed due to a fitment alternation/blend that didnt work out. And the mistake on the e-mail was post group-buy, so the price was already set... and I got to eat it. It had no affect on anything other than how long it took me to recover a profit. And even in that case, why would that still not count towards a bottom line and profitability overall, the same as me having to buy a Coupe fascia to produce? Of course it should. I realize you are trying to "twist" this as nicely as possible, but these are all basic ideas behind design, business, and sales. They all come together to either make or lose money. If I am not making anything, why in the hell would I bother?




You also mentioned that you had people order and return your mud flaps after they clearly used them for templets. I would be as frustrated as you if I had that done to me. But just to be clear here are you saying that due to those situations it affected the price of your final product ? I would hope this would not be the case and if it was wouldn't a no refund policy on this item be a far better solution? Again no personal attack here and I'm not telling you how to run your business.


I was in no way suggesting it affected pricing, and it says right on the website that returns are not allowed on the product as a result, and it has said that for months. The price of this product has been the same since it was released post group-buy pricing.


And I also apologize to the OP that this has turned into an off-topic discussion.

[TheMadMachinist]

Thank you for taking the time to explain.

I wasn't twisting anything by the way, only asking just to clarify.

[RyanLS.GEN2]

We had some Gen2 headlight access panels come back 2 years ago with clay in the holes, and stuff smeared all over them and all the nut inserts removed......... ebay return as "not as described" so we ate freight both ways, guy pulled molds off them and returned them damaged basically by cutting the inserts off. Happens more than you think.