Gen III vs Gen IV

[S281e]

What are the key contributors for the extra 100hp going from the gen 3 to 4? Roughly how much would I need to spend to get the same engine hp if I bought a Gen 3?

[EZ 2B Green]

There are many more improvements other than a horsepower increase between Gen III & Gen IV. Buy a Gen IV if it is within your budget!

[ViperGTS]

There are many more improvements other than a horsepower increase between Gen III & Gen IV. Buy a Gen IV if it is within your budget!

+1 :drive:

[Bill Pemberton]

Better synchros ( triple cone for first few gears instead of double), some changes to the frame, VVT and higher redline with the 8.4 ltr, change in the hood design, dual clutch setup, and more.

As noted , if funds available , go with the Gen IV.

PS - in my personal experience , my Gen IV got a lot better fuel mileage , even though I know this is not a real reason folks buy a Viper for.

You have a PM

[S281e]

I figured as much.....just taking a while to find s nice Gen IV at a good price....seem to be a bunch of Gen III available. Bill did you send me a PM...I do t see anything in my inbox. Try emailing me at s281E@yahoo.com.

[06SRTCoupe]

Two other big advantages of the Gen IV is the oiling distribution and the rear end. The Gen 3, when pulling lateral G's aka on a road course, will cause the oil to shift in the pan and starve the motor. Basically, the pick up system sucks for road course driving. The Gen IV's pickup system corrected this problem.

The Gen IV rear end is much stronger than the Gen 3's.

[99RT10]

What Color car are you looking for? I have a 2008 SSG for sale

[S281e]

Lol.....99RT10.....you promised me pics like three weeks ago. Still waiting for them.

[99RT10]

LOL, still stuck in Dayton, OH. I will PM you some if I can get a friend to run over to the shop.

[LateToTheParty]

I want to say they got rid of the exhaust crossover from the gen III to the gen IV so it's not as hot in the cab.

[S281e]

99RT10 please do...thanks for the feedback guys. I guess I’ll go back to just looking for Gen 4 and 5 models. 99RT10 do you have any mods on the 08?

[99RT10]

Bone stock for the most part. Just some exterior tweaks

33892

33893

[Mamba003]

Lots of improvements for the GenIV over the III but their are some drawbacks that keep me in my GenIII to this day. First the VVT- as much as thats group to boost power in the upper ranges, there is some loss in low to mid range. Second - drive by wire. Sorry but there is nothing like a cable to a throttle body and if you want it all you get it all and not a computer telling you what you want. ALSO add to that the throttle lag time. Those two issues are evident in the gen5 also. I have additional power and upgrades in my Gen III to keep me happy with it but the 5s are very attractive with the looks and creature comforts. If it wasn't for the engine issues I would likely have made a move.

The GenIIIs are huge bargains these days for everything you get. If you are willing to do some upgrades its hard to beat.

[06SRTCoupe]

Good points Mamba. I forgot to add that, if you want to go big power on a "budget", then Gen 3 is definitely the way to go. Pretty basic stuff to have a shop throw in a forged motor, some fuel, clutch, rear, and supercharger. You can hit 850whp in no time at all. Todd at A&C Performance is a great vendor and has a great shop. If you want big power, give him a call.

[Stealth78]

No offense guys but did the two of you who posted last recently hit your heads hard? Possibly together? Lol joking guys!!!! In all honesty I used to say the same thing in regards to the drive by wire and lag time. Once you get a tune it is virtually unnoticeable. Additionally, yes the GenII had great low end torque, then the GenIII had moved the power up a tad in the rpm range and had good low end with great mid-range. The GenIV does sacrifice a bit of the low end and a tiny bit in the mid-range but it feels more than what it actually is because of how much more power ramps up in the GenIV at upper RPM's. Whereas the GenIII from the factory has a rev limiter at 6,050 (I believe) and typically makes peak HP around 5,600 to 5,800, my car now makes peak HP at 6,500rpm's!

I came from a beautiful 06 GenIII coupe. I liked the car but I had to evaluate what it would take for it to compare to a GenIV. Once I factored in the articulating oil pick-up, transmission, rear differential (No the GenIV is not the most hardcore differential but it is leaps and bounds better than the GenIII, this was my biggest complaint of the GenIII!), I wanted to buy a GenIV hood, and from the factory you're already up 90HP. Once you add these cost up you start to realize the GenIII is not that big of a bargain. You are easily looking at over $10,000 to get to that point. On top of that all you need to do to a GenIV to make around 700HP at the flywheel is simple bolt-ons and tuning.

06SRTCoupe, your interpretation of "basic stuff" (forged motor, supercharger, etc...) and "budget" is far beyond what most consider basic. I don't care who you are 850WHP does NOT come cheap!!!

[Mamba003]

I did hit my head hard after seeing the amount of money I put in my GEnIII to improve it even past a gen IV. First heads cam by Dan at Viper Specialty. 613 to the wheels and all the goodies including Dans modified gen IV pan swingarm setup and gen IV heads and intake. I then upgraded everything else I mean everything else. Well aside from the transmission. Motons, OS Giken, gears, exhaust, fuel, brakes, wheels tires etc.

My point is for the money and simplicity the gen III still provides great value and a great building block to upgrades.
Be



No offense guys but did the two of you who posted last recently hit your heads hard? Possibly together? Lol joking guys!!!! In all honesty I used to say the same thing in regards to the drive by wire and lag time. Once you get a tune it is virtually unnoticeable. Additionally, yes the GenII had great low end torque, then the GenIII had moved the power up a tad in the rpm range and had good low end with great mid-range. The GenIV does sacrifice a bit of the low end and a tiny bit in the mid-range but it feels more than what it actually is because of how much more power ramps up in the GenIV at upper RPM's. Whereas the GenIII from the factory has a rev limiter at 6,050 (I believe) and typically makes peak HP around 5,600 to 5,800, my car now makes peak HP at 6,500rpm's!

I came from a beautiful 06 GenIII coupe. I liked the car but I had to evaluate what it would take for it to compare to a GenIV. Once I factored in the articulating oil pick-up, transmission, rear differential (No the GenIV is not the most hardcore differential but it is leaps and bounds better than the GenIII, this was my biggest complaint of the GenIII!), I wanted to buy a GenIV hood, and from the factory you're already up 90HP. Once you add these cost up you start to realize the GenIII is not that big of a bargain. You are easily looking at over $10,000 to get to that point. On top of that all you need to do to a GenIV to make around 700HP at the flywheel is simple bolt-ons and tuning.

06SRTCoupe, your interpretation of "basic stuff" (forged motor, supercharger, etc...) and "budget" is far beyond what most consider basic. I don't care who you are 850WHP does NOT come cheap!!!

[Mamba003]

All in all, even after all the cost, especially it being over time, I am not much further in cost than a bolt on genIV but would take mine over one in a heart beat. I just wish mine was a coupe!

[Stealth78]

The last part I forgot to mention is resale, if it occurs. Take a stock GenIV with the better trans, 90 more HP, better rear diff, better looking hood. Buy one that is immaculate for say $55,000 - $60,000 (coupe), keep it two years while keeping it beautiful and not racking up too much mileage then sell it, you could likely get $55,000 all day. Now take a stock GenIII (coupe), buy an immaculate one for $45,000. Put $10,000 - $15,000 into it, run it for two years under the same circumstances and you will likely have a resale value of what you paid, $45,000. Sorry I am OCD about this stuff, I work in finance and can't allow myself to break away from it.

[Mamba003]

Back to the subject to get 100 extra horsepower out of a gen III you either need to find a Paxton car which they are out there and likely 3-5k over stock in price from what I have seen. To do it normally aspirated you will need head and likely cam, exhaust tune etc. Guessing entry level there is roughly 10-12k depending on how you go about it but I might be off.

[Mamba003]

Agreed. Modifications don’t add a lot of value if any at all. All depends on what you are looking for and what you want to do with the car. Funny I’ve turned around every car I have had in the last 20 years within 3 years most sooner but the Viper I have had since 2005 and still giggle my ass off when I start it.



The last part I forgot to mention is resale, if it occurs. Take a stock GenIV with the better trans, 90 more HP, better rear diff, better looking hood. Buy one that is immaculate for say $55,000 - $60,000 (coupe), keep it two years while keeping it beautiful and not racking up too much mileage then sell it, you could likely get $55,000 all day. Now take a stock GenIII (coupe), buy an immaculate one for $45,000. Put $10,000 - $15,000 into it, run it for two years under the same circumstances and you will likely have a resale value of what you paid, $45,000. Sorry I am OCD about this stuff, I work in finance and can't allow myself to break away from it.

[Mamba003]

33900

[Mamba003]

33901

[Stealth78]

Well I will say it looks sweet! See you even went the route of a GenIV hood.

[RedTanRT/10]

What are the key contributors for the extra 100hp going from the gen 3 to 4? Roughly how much would I need to spend to get the same engine hp if I bought a Gen 3?

S281, lots of folks mentioned all the differences but no one posted the answer to your first question on why/how 90hp more, it's the heads.

Simple answer to your second question, how much on a G3 to add 90hp? $10k with labor.

[Stealth78]

I may be wrong but wasn't there a bump in compression?

- - - Updated - - -

The intake probably didn't hurt either.

[Mamba003]

I did hit my head hard after seeing the amount of money I put in my GEnIII to improve it even past a gen IV. First heads cam by Dan at Viper Specialty. 613 to the wheels and all the goodies including Dans modified gen IV pan swingarm setup and gen IV heads and intake. I then upgraded everything else I mean everything else. Well aside from the transmission. Motons, OS Giken, gears, exhaust, fuel, brakes, wheels tires etc.

My point is for the money and simplicity the gen III still provides great value and a great building block to upgrades.
Be



No offense guys but did the two of you who posted last recently hit your heads hard? Possibly together? Lol joking guys!!!! In all honesty I used to say the same thing in regards to the drive by wire and lag time. Once you get a tune it is virtually unnoticeable. Additionally, yes the GenII had great low end torque, then the GenIII had moved the power up a tad in the rpm range and had good low end with great mid-range. The GenIV does sacrifice a bit of the low end and a tiny bit in the mid-range but it feels more than what it actually is because of how much more power ramps up in the GenIV at upper RPM's. Whereas the GenIII from the factory has a rev limiter at 6,050 (I believe) and typically makes peak HP around 5,600 to 5,800, my car now makes peak HP at 6,500rpm's!

I came from a beautiful 06 GenIII coupe. I liked the car but I had to evaluate what it would take for it to compare to a GenIV. Once I factored in the articulating oil pick-up, transmission, rear differential (No the GenIV is not the most hardcore differential but it is leaps and bounds better than the GenIII, this was my biggest complaint of the GenIII!), I wanted to buy a GenIV hood, and from the factory you're already up 90HP. Once you add these cost up you start to realize the GenIII is not that big of a bargain. You are easily looking at over $10,000 to get to that point. On top of that all you need to do to a GenIV to make around 700HP at the flywheel is simple bolt-ons and tuning.

06SRTCoupe, your interpretation of "basic stuff" (forged motor, supercharger, etc...) and "budget" is far beyond what most consider basic. I don't care who you are 850WHP does NOT come cheap!!!

[S281e]

The end goal is going to be a twin turbo viper and I’m finding Gen 3 with a twin turbo setup. I just don’t get the impression the right upgrades were made with the twin turbo setup or they have high miles. Ideally I would like a Gen 5 twin turbo but can’t stomach the cost. So I figured a Gen 4 with a twin turbo would be a bit easier.

[99RT10]

The end goal is going to be a twin turbo viper and I’m finding Gen 3 with a twin turbo setup. I just don’t get the impression the right upgrades were made with the twin turbo setup or they have high miles. Ideally I would like a Gen 5 twin turbo but can’t stomach the cost. So I figured a Gen 4 with a twin turbo would be a bit easier.

Actually, you will have to replace the pistons/rods in the Gen 4. TT a Gen 4, more complicated than a Gen V, plus add cost of a Good set of heads. That being said, I have a UGR Gen 3 TT too. Stryker heads, 78MM turbos. Over $150K invested in the car. Did I send you my email?

[S281e]

You did not......mine is s281e@yahoo.com. Please send pics of both when you get a chance.

[Gen3CoupeTX]

I was looking for a 4, previous owner of a 2. But when I saw an '06 coupe, blown and stroked making 750 RWHP, that was for me. Let the people who pay top dollar to build them right spend the cash ... And then you're there to pick it up when they decide to build something else. It's worked for me.

[S281e]

I agree but finding the right one can take some time. There is a nice 04 white mamba twin turbo on eBay now. Twin turbo kit by Hennessy. No dyno charts or proof of hp. Yes, I could try calling Hennessy but they are hard to get anything from unless your calling NG about a price quote.

[Viper Specialty]

Tom-

All that talk, and no pics under the hood? Sheesh. LOL!



<--- Under Tom's hood.


For what its worth to anyone reading, dont underestimate Gen-3. G3 is a very good combination of "all of the things you want, none of the things you dont" when it comes to modification. For about the same price as a BPU Gen-4 when factoring in old part liquidation, you can build an emissions-passing Gen-3 with a Wavetrac, TR6060, G4 hood, VS-X700 package making 50-75HP more than a Gen-4, low-boost capable, and ready to rock. It will perform like a Gen-4 in every way or better, looks like a Gen-4 or better, makes more power than a Gen-4, is easier to modify than a true Gen-4, etc. Stock Gen-4 engines are much more fragile than Gen-3, no easy boost options, DBW, Cam and CEL hassles, etc.

The Gen-3 is the most underrated Viper available, and that's the truth.

[Whiskey]

I sold my 08 coupe because I hated the drive by wire, crap low end and the ride/ handling wasn’t much better (if at all) than a Gen3 with equal tires. The Gen3 runflat or any runflat in a Viper sucks bad! My Gen4 was stupid $ to mod.

The best thing about Gen4 over Gen 3 is the TR6060 trans. Much improved.


But now I have a Gen3 with 850rwhp+ and a TR6060. Price wise....I saved 5k over what I got for my Gen4.

When it comes to Viper nothing price/performance beats a Gen3.

PS...I forgot to add sound. No Gen will sound like a Gen 3 with a Roe 710R cam and the crossover still in.......Pure eargasium.

[06SRTCoupe]

I sold my 08 coupe because I hated the drive by wire, crap low end and the ride/ handling wasn’t much better (if at all) than a Gen3 with equal tires. The Gen3 runflat or any runflat in a Viper sucks bad! My Gen4 was stupid $ to mod.

The best thing about Gen4 over Gen 3 is the TR6060 trans. Much improved.


But now I have a Gen3 with 850rwhp+ and a TR6060. Price wise....I saved 5k over what I got for my Gen4.

When it comes to Viper nothing price/performance beats a Gen3.

PS...I forgot to add sound. No Gen will sound like a Gen 3 with a Roe 710R cam and the crossover still in.......Pure eargasium.

I can't speak for a stock Gen IV but, with my Arrow setup, the throttle response is awesome.

If you are going to mod past 650ish whp then the Gen 3 is definitely the way to go. I believe the only way to supercharge a Gen IV is with some sort of standalone tuning (AEM Infinity, Motec, Pro Efi, etc). Really expensive.

[Stealth78]

Tom-

All that talk, and no pics under the hood? Sheesh. LOL!



<--- Under Tom's hood.


For what its worth to anyone reading, dont underestimate Gen-3. G3 is a very good combination of "all of the things you want, none of the things you dont" when it comes to modification. For about the same price as a BPU Gen-4 when factoring in old part liquidation, you can build an emissions-passing Gen-3 with a Wavetrac, TR6060, G4 hood, VS-X700 package making 50-75HP more than a Gen-4, low-boost capable, and ready to rock. It will perform like a Gen-4 in every way or better, looks like a Gen-4 or better, makes more power than a Gen-4, is easier to modify than a true Gen-4, etc. Stock Gen-4 engines are much more fragile than Gen-3, no easy boost options, DBW, Cam and CEL hassles, etc.

The Gen-3 is the most underrated Viper available, and that's the truth.

Dan can you elaborate a little more as to what makes a GenIV "much more fragile" than a GenIII?

Additionally my car is currently making close to around 700HP at the crank. Exhaust, GenV intake, UD Pulley (really just freeing up a few ponies), and HPT.... really not all that expensive to get to this point. Now if I want to get much more reliably then yes costs go up quickly. Although there have been a handful of guys that have done ported heads and a cam and I believe that was accomplished on HPT, they're probably closer to 750HP at the crank. But to try and retain costs I'll go back to what I have done to my car at this point. So without adding the cost of a swinging oil pick-up, hood, rear diff and upgrading the transmission, what would one expect to pay for a 150 - 200 HP increase on a GenIII to get to my current HP? I'm being very serious becaus I came directly out of a GenIII coupe into a GenIV coupe and my stock GenIII (cat-back only) would get its headlights sucked out by my GenIV as it stands right now, legitimately not even a comparison.

[Whiskey]

Dan can you elaborate a little more as to what makes a GenIV "much more fragile" than a GenIII?

Additionally my car is currently making close to around 700HP at the crank. Exhaust, GenV intake, UD Pulley (really just freeing up a few ponies), and HPT.... really not all that expensive to get to this point. Now if I want to get much more reliably then yes costs go up quickly. Although there have been a handful of guys that have done ported heads and a cam and I believe that was accomplished on HPT, they're probably closer to 750HP at the crank. But to try and retain costs I'll go back to what I have done to my car at this point. So without adding the cost of a swinging oil pick-up, hood, rear diff and upgrading the transmission, what would one expect to pay for a 150 - 200 HP increase on a GenIII to get to my current HP? I'm being very serious becaus I came directly out of a GenIII coupe into a GenIV coupe and my stock GenIII (cat-back only) would get its headlights sucked out by my GenIV as it stands right now, legitimately not even a comparison.

Bolt-on Paxton will lay down 650rwhp all day long on something like 6psi. That’s about what 750bhp. Close to that anyway. Price depends on the tuner. But ~$10k-$12 is. Normal.

[Viper Specialty]

Dan can you elaborate a little more as to what makes a GenIV "much more fragile" than a GenIII?

Additionally my car is currently making close to around 700HP at the crank. Exhaust, GenV intake, UD Pulley (really just freeing up a few ponies), and HPT.... really not all that expensive to get to this point. Now if I want to get much more reliably then yes costs go up quickly. Although there have been a handful of guys that have done ported heads and a cam and I believe that was accomplished on HPT, they're probably closer to 750HP at the crank. But to try and retain costs I'll go back to what I have done to my car at this point. So without adding the cost of a swinging oil pick-up, hood, rear diff and upgrading the transmission, what would one expect to pay for a 150 - 200 HP increase on a GenIII to get to my current HP? I'm being very serious becaus I came directly out of a GenIII coupe into a GenIV coupe and my stock GenIII (cat-back only) would get its headlights sucked out by my GenIV as it stands right now, legitimately not even a comparison.

Gen-4's hold the record for sheer number of stock shattered pistons... and when factoring in that there are virtually no Supercharged stock engine Gen-4's... that's sad. Real sad. Gen-2 and Gen-3 Hypereutectic piston cars are substantially stronger than Gen-4's in stock form, holding up to the 700 RW range even on botched Blower cars without too much difficulty. Gen-4's have a tendency to come unglued even NA when put on the track. That's... horseshit, and being nice about it, especially given that they have better rods and just about everything else engine wise.

A Paxton Blower Gen-3 in minimalistic fashion will eclipse your horsepower without any difficulty for the 10-15K range, accounting for a basic install vs. a "done right" install. The VS-X700 we offer will make more than you, at $17500 installed turn-key... and thats NA. I could probably throw together a cheaper version of the VS-X700 based on the Arrow/Mopar manifold [I HATE] for a few thousand less without even batting an eye... sans visual appeal.

So, if you are comparing the ~40K Gen-3 price point to the ~60K Gen-4 price point, you can see how you can make just as much or more power, and still have cash to do the diff and trans, and even the hood if you were very well planned. If you want to get more well-planned, I can take a Gen-3 to Gen-4 drivetrain specs and 900+ horsepower for 75K or less, including the car, blower/2-Bar w/built engine and fixed oiling system/hood.

Nobody is arguing the value of the Gen-4's, but my main point is that people seriously underestimate the value of a Gen-3, and what you can do with them compared to a Gen-4.

[S281e]

I’m n expert but with all the hunting I have done lately a Gen 3 with low miles (about 6k) is running around 45k, Gen 4 have been around 55k. Not using eBay as a source but autotrader/Craigslist/forums and what I’m able to negotiate. So I’m not sure the difference really is 20k anymore. Maybe 10-15k.

[Kainedogg]

Stealth78 who tuned your IV?

[J TNT]

To Dan's point of shattered pistons on Gen 4's , there is a set of oem Gen 5 Forged pistons and connecting rods for sale on VOA Classifieds . If someone is looking to upgrade for reasonable money ...........

[Viper Specialty]

I’m n expert but with all the hunting I have done lately a Gen 3 with low miles (about 6k) is running around 45k, Gen 4 have been around 55k. Not using eBay as a source but autotrader/Craigslist/forums and what I’m able to negotiate. So I’m not sure the difference really is 20k anymore. Maybe 10-15k.

Its certainly possible that the market on G3 is FINALLY shifting higher and closing the gap. However, It has not been hard to find G3 cars for about 40K for a long time, as long as you were looking outside of special editions and coupes. G4 has been in the 55-65K range forever as well.

[S281e]

Every time I think I have it figured out someone makes a valid argument. I also like the fact that more Gen 3 were made so they seem to be easier to find already moded. The other minor issue is color selection. The Gen 4 seem to have the better choices. SSG/VVO/Violet/Andaconda green

[Stealth78]

Gen-4's hold the record for sheer number of stock shattered pistons... and when factoring in that there are virtually no Supercharged stock engine Gen-4's... that's sad. Real sad. Gen-2 and Gen-3 Hypereutectic piston cars are substantially stronger than Gen-4's in stock form, holding up to the 700 RW range even on botched Blower cars without too much difficulty. Gen-4's have a tendency to come unglued even NA when put on the track. That's... horseshit, and being nice about it, especially given that they have better rods and just about everything else engine wise.

A Paxton Blower Gen-3 in minimalistic fashion will eclipse your horsepower without any difficulty for the 10-15K range, accounting for a basic install vs. a "done right" install. The VS-X700 we offer will make more than you, at $17500 installed turn-key... and thats NA. I could probably throw together a cheaper version of the VS-X700 based on the Arrow/Mopar manifold [I HATE] for a few thousand less without even batting an eye... sans visual appeal.

So, if you are comparing the ~40K Gen-3 price point to the ~60K Gen-4 price point, you can see how you can make just as much or more power, and still have cash to do the diff and trans, and even the hood if you were very well planned. If you want to get more well-planned, I can take a Gen-3 to Gen-4 drivetrain specs and 900+ horsepower for 75K or less, including the car, blower/2-Bar w/built engine and fixed oiling system/hood.

Nobody is arguing the value of the Gen-4's, but my main point is that people seriously underestimate the value of a Gen-3, and what you can do with them compared to a Gen-4.

Hey Dan, I did not realize there were more catastrophic failures in GenIV's than there were GenIII's. In the old days of SRT-10 Rams I knew of a lot of GenIII engines going "KABOOM" when under boost. Now we can all compare Dyno numbers but what about timeslips? We all know peak HP Dyno numbers don't mean anything. Maybe these stock engine boosted GenIII's are putting down in the mid to upper 600's at the wheels but I have not seen too many stock engine boosted GenIII's put down too many impressive timeslips, whereas bolt-on GenIV's have been all over the 10 second range as low as 10.4. Please post up some stock engine GenIII's going into the low 10's or upper 9's. Please know I say this respectfully, I'm not trying to be a ball buster. Fact is a bolt-on GenIV has great power across the RPM range and the throttle response is amazing and on tap.... No waiting for boost. As for the few people that have complained about the GenIV having no low end and sacrificing mid-range, have these people driven a full bolt-on GenIV with a tune and 3:55's? I'm not saying that the engine focuses around low and mid range like the earlier production Gen's but I sure wouldn't say the car is starving for power.

[06SRTCoupe]

I would like to see some data on this. How many Gen 3 or Gen 4 cars actually fail because of a cracked piston? Also, if I'm not mistaken, the Gen 2 pistons were fully forged and NOT hypereutectic.

Saying that a car has more engine failures because of pistons alone only tells a very small part of the story. Out of all engine failures on Gen 3 or 4 cars, I would be willing to bet that actual piston failure is a very small percentage.

How about overall engine failures? The Gen 3's weak bearings and oiling issues have been long documented. I would be willing to bet there have been more Gen 3 popped motors than Gen 4.

[Viper Specialty]

I think both of you guys are missing the point.

FACT: The ACR-X Pistons exist BECAUSE Gen-4 piston failures is a known issue.

FACT: I have been an engine builder for years and years, and I have seen MULTIPLE Gen-4 Normally Aspirated Piston Failures, and have seen VIRTUALLY ZERO Normally Aspirated Gen-3 piston failures, and up to and including all of the Gen-3 block based Gen-4 head packages out there which have shown zero issues I am aware of in all usages, up to and including Comp Coupes.

There is no debate here as to which piston version is a bigger problem.

You cannot compare Piston Failures of Boosted Gen-3 or Ram SRT applications, they are making FAR more power than a Gen-4 when you factor in blower losses, and in the case of the Ram, are also hauling a hell of a lot more weight.

You guys are also splitting hairs. Dyno's tell which engine makes more power, time-slips tell which cars have better drivers or drivers more willing to track their cars. Its a meaningless metric in this conversation, just as comparing bearings failures would be, given that it can be solved easily with an oil pan upgrade, and still exists in Gen-4 and 5 applications.

I think both of you guys are getting caught up in tangential points.


And lastly, only 96-99 Gen-2 pistons were forged. 00-02 were Hypereutectic.

[parabs]

Gen 4’s have a way more interesting pallet of colours and is a pretty damn good car, however tuning can be a bit tricky. Arrow/Prefix/Mopar pcm cars will not pass emissions testing if your state or territory requires it. HP Tuners can possibly pass emissions, however I’m not certain. Stock PCM’s have narrow parameters and will throw a code/limp with the smallest of modifications.

Gen 3’s are the modders dream IMHO. Relatively easy to tune, multiple vendors with stout heads cam intake packages, can make good power with or without the emissions system. There is a couple blower options depending how you would like to go and of course turbos.

Stock for stock, they are both great cars that provide smiles per mile. Excluding the price of the car modding a Gen 3 to a reliable 650whp is far less costly than modding a Gen 4 to 650whp.

[J TNT]

Dan and Parabs are spot on with their analysis.
Don't shoot the messenger......lol !

[RedTanRT/10]

Dan, thanks for all the insights!! Lots' of great info from someone that's been building and fixing viper for a long time.

From my experience getting a G4 to 600 rwhp (conservative dyno) isn't too expensive, headers/exhaust, ECU, ported intake and heads. Seems like the heads gave me 25 and the other parts the first 50.

But, after 600 then it gets real costly and hard to pass emissions in a G4

To get the G3 to 600 is 5k more. But to get to 650 plus, the G3 is hands down much more reasonable and real big #'s are attainable for a lot less then trying that on a 4 or 5. Plus, the G3 has more torque and that comes on so much earlier in the band.

If you want the big, big power then a G3 is so much more cost effective. But, if you wan t a coupe then you only have the choice of an '06 unless you want to convert a convertible, and there so much more costly than a vert.

[06SRTCoupe]

Great, the Gen IV broke more pistons than the Gen 3.

I want to know which Gen Viper has had more overall engine failures. Gen 3 or Gen 4.

[99RT10]

Great, the Gen IV broke more pistons than the Gen 3.

I want to know which Gen Viper has had more overall engine failures.

:smilielol::smilielol::smilielol:

[Viper Specialty]

Great, the Gen IV broke more pistons than the Gen 3.

I want to know which Gen Viper has had more overall engine failures. Gen 3 or Gen 4.


The answer to your question, is Gen-5.

Ooops.


Now, whats easier to solve. An oil pan, or a piston swap?

Hmmmmm.

[Bill Pemberton]

The real answer is they are all the same............................regardless of years, and all are lower than the failures of most other exotic/supercars.

[06SRTCoupe]

The answer to your question, is Gen-5.

Ooops.


Now, whats easier to solve. An oil pan, or a piston swap?

Hmmmmm.

Thanks for again dodging the question. :smilielol:

[Viper Specialty]

Thanks for again dodging the question. :smilielol:

I am not dodging anything. But whatever makes you feel better I guess.

You have your opinion, and I have mine. I would suggest you get over it.

[06SRTCoupe]

I am not dodging anything. But whatever makes you feel better I guess.

You have your opinion, and I have mine. I would suggest you get over it.

:smilielol:

I was never upset. Good day!

[Stealth78]

We all have our opinions... At the end of the day all Viper's are awesome, plain and simple. The one comment that has continued to fester in my head was Dan's comment - "when factoring in that there are virtually no Supercharged stock engine Gen-4's... that's sad.". I feel like this is one of the most biased and dumbest things I have read in this thread, sorry but true. We have seen numerous GenIV's making around and some over 600WHP with bolt-ons. Where a GenIV is already up almost 100 HP stock for stock over a GenIII, and a GenIV can be about 200HP over a stock GenIII when you add bolt-ons. What sense would it make to boost a car to make another 50HP??? Boosting a GenIII makes sense on somewhat fragile internals that can handle about 650WHP, which justifies spending the money on the supercharger to gain 200WHP. You wouldn't run a GenIII on stock internals up to 750WHP, right? So what the heck would be the point of spending all the money on a supercharger on a GenIV to only gain 50 - 100WHP? Everyone is using the example of 650WHP, which is really the only sweet spot in which the GenIII might be more cost effective. If you are talking 600WHP+/- it is extremely easily obtainable on a GenIV, if you are talking 750 - 800WHP I can't imagine the GenIII being any more cost effective to get there. As others have pointed out, minus the pistons themselves everything about the GenIV is a better designed engine. Additionally, others have mentioned it would only cost $10K - $12K to do a full supercharger system to a GenIII to make more power than a GenIV. The part that you are not accounting for is the crap rear differential and inferior transmission in the GenIII. If you are going to make a comparison please remember to account for the extra $3,000 to $6,000 for these additional upgrades. I can't even imagine running 650WHP on the horrible rear differential in the genIII. I had never had a car in my life that gave such an unpredictable feeling when under hard cornering as I did with my GenIII. And that is why I upgraded to a GenIV from my GenIII, once I priced out how much it was going to cost me to upgrade the articulating oil pick-up, rear diff, and transmission, that alone was going to be around $8,000, add the GenIV hood into the mix and then you have $10,000 invested into your GenIII and you are still only making 510HP. If anyone thinks they can do all of that and add a blower making a reliable 8lbs of boost for under $20,000..... GOOD LUCK!

[Viper Specialty]

You are literally missing the point of what I was saying, and getting your panties in a bunch about it. Let me break it down for you, since you are having trouble.

The fact that there are virtually zero boosted stock-piston Gen-4's, WHERE BOOST CONTRIBUTES TO THE SHEER NUMBER OF STOCK PISTON FAILURES, makes it SAD that Gen-4's have so many piston failures. GET IT? The Gen-3 platform virtually never loses pistons Normally Aspirated, only boosted w/poor tuning usually. Gen-4, loses them in numerous cases when tracked N/A, and I have rebuilt many. Dodge even knows about the problem, Arrow/Prefix know about the problem, the Gen-5 specifically changed them because of this problem. That is a PISTON WEAKNESS, and sorry if you are too blinded by the fact you own a Gen-4 to see that. If one of you guys didn't try to bring BOOSTED GEN-3 PISTON FAILURES into the comparison like that can somehow be stacked against it in a failure comparison, where Gen-4 has no examples to even compare, perhaps I wouldn't have to try and nail down that aspect of the conversation to the point that you got upset about it.

To your other comments, I already did account for those other upgrades and mentioned them directly, and gave a price point for something akin to a VS-900SC. You also aren't accounting for the fact that a Boosted Gen-3 is limited to 650-ish because of the pistons primarily, and with an engine build [all things being equal would also be needed with a Gen-4] it would FAR eclipse what a Gen-4 can make without a very expensive custom blower system or TT.

We get it, you love your Gen-4 and have talked yourself into it being the only path and will defend it to death.

I have a Gen-4 for Christs sake, and you guys act like I am attacking you directly. Get the hell over it, you cant argue with the engineering problem behind my point. You seem to forget that you are a CONSUMER, I am a BUILDER. I think I have just a weeee bit more in depth experience to make suggestions and complete and consolidated judgement calls. You act like I said "All Gen-4's are JUNK!" or something. All I said was, that there are different paths ahead for different guys, the Gen-3 platform is highly undervalued, and Gen-4 has weaker pistons than it should. Its that simple.

As I have said before; Gen-3 is undervalued, and you can get to Gen-4 power levels with the right mod path for the same cost as a Gen-4 or less. If you want a 600RWHP well rounded car and will be happy with that, go Gen-4 and leave it alone other than minor mods. If you want more, or want to be able to easily modify the car, buy a Gen-3. If you want a moderate Blower or TT Application, buy a Gen-3. If you want a Mega-Dollar build, buy any generation you want, because it won't make a difference.



Now take your festering comment nonsense to the store and get some antibiotics, take two, and call me in the morning.

[parabs]

lol

[Stealth78]

Dan I'm sorry that this has turned into a pissing match but you make comments that confuse me.
"looks like a Gen-4 or better" - Please inform how a GenIII looks better than a GenIV? Last I checked the body panels are the same.
"Stock Gen-4 engines are much more fragile than Gen-3" - Again, GenIV spins about 400rpm faster out of the box and makes an additional 90HP. You have admitted this is due to the pistons specifically, who cares about inferior oiling for the lower end and oil cavitation on track in the GenIII, right?
"I can take a Gen-3 to Gen-4 drivetrain specs and 900+ horsepower for 75K or less" - Please show me where you are advertising 06 coupes with say under 5,000 miles with GenIV drivelines and making 900WHP for at or under $75,000.

Additionally as there seems to be a misunderstanding of values of these cars. I bought my 06 coupe with 12,000 miles for $48,500. I sold that car without even advertising it for $48,000 with 15,500 miles on it. I then bought my GenIV with 1,846 miles on it, fully documented, original window sticker and all original equipment (some of which were still sealed in their original bags) for $62,500. There were numerous 12,000 to 20,000 mile GenIV's for sale at the time for around $52,000 to $55,000.

[Viper Specialty]

Dan I'm sorry that this has turned into a pissing match but you make comments that confuse me.
"looks like a Gen-4 or better" - Please inform how a GenIII looks better than a GenIV? Last I checked the body panels are the same.
"Stock Gen-4 engines are much more fragile than Gen-3" - Again, GenIV spins about 400rpm faster out of the box and makes an additional 90HP. You have admitted this is due to the pistons specifically, who cares about inferior oiling for the lower end and oil cavitation on track in the GenIII, right?
"I can take a Gen-3 to Gen-4 drivetrain specs and 900+ horsepower for 75K or less" - Please show me where you are advertising 06 coupes with say under 5,000 miles with GenIV drivelines and making 900WHP for at or under $75,000.

Additionally as there seems to be a misunderstanding of values of these cars. I bought my 06 coupe with 12,000 miles for $48,500. I sold that car without even advertising it for $48,000 with 15,500 miles on it. I then bought my GenIV with 1,846 miles on it, fully documented, original window sticker and all original equipment (some of which were still sealed in their original bags) for $62,500. There were numerous 12,000 to 20,000 mile GenIV's for sale at the time for around $52,000 to $55,000.

Here we go with the pissing match.

1. Looks like a Gen-4 or better: Look at Mamba003's car. Open the hood. It looks better than a Gen-4.

2. The major oiling system issues on Gen-3 can be fixed for under 2 Grand, sometimes under 1... in an afternoon. How much is a piston swap again...? And how long will that take?

3. Well, lets see. I never said anything about Coupes, nor did I say anything about mileage, so dont even try to play that game by pigeon-holing me into the most expensive examples available. I can get Gen3 Verts for about 40K, even less if you find the right donor with a particular issue. A VS-750SC package is 15K. I can turn this same car into a VS-900SC for less than 10K more. So... 65K into a 900 horsepower Gen-3, assuming a normal donor car. Add the TR6060, Wavetrack, and Oil Pan. 10K. 75K total. 900 horsepower Gen-3 Blower car with a built engine, drives like stock, with a Gen-4 equivalent drivetrain.

You lose.


PS- Better looking than a Gen-4.

http://viperspecialtyperformance.com/images/TomN/tn04_3.jpg

Also better looking than a Gen-4.

http://viperspecialtyperformance.com/images/PatC/pc01_2_3.jpg

Also better looking than a Gen-4.

http://viperspecialtyperformance.com/images/HeathC/hc97_4.jpg

Also better looking than a Gen-4.

http://viperspecialtyperformance.com/images/ManojM/mm69_5.jpg


Obviously I am poking fun, but my point is, that you don't need a Gen-4 to look better than a stock Gen-4. If you took my meaning as the car itself... well, thats kinda funny, seeing as a Gen-3 with a Gen-4 hood is identical in appearance and cannot be told apart. Obviously, anything that can be done body wise to a 3 can be done to a 4 and vice versa.

[ttrentt]

2. The major oiling system issues on Gen-3 can be fixed for under 2 Grand, sometimes under 1... in an afternoon. How much is a piston swap again...? And how long will that take?

How can this be less than 1 grand? I want to start tracking my Gen III, but am nervous about the stories I have heard about oil starvation.

[J TNT]

Dan is spot on with Gen 3 oiling fix.
Did mine 8 years ago with many track days and no issues. I even replaced my connecting rod bearings last month to validate and they could have stayed in the car. I replaced them anyway since I was there ....
The VS 700 is a work of art ,one of our members had it done , nice work Dan.

[ttrentt]

Dan is spot on with Gen 3 oiling fix.

What fix did you do?

[ViperSRT]

What fix did you do?

I installed a swing arm oil pick up and oil pan and revised oil pressure relief spring back in 2004 on the advice of a Team Viper development engineer (comp coupe version as this was before the Gen 4 Pan came out). No oiling issues and many track days (with better rubber). I also installed a supercharger about the same time. Also use only Viper oil filters.

[Stealth78]

Dan, I'll stop with the sword fight. I definitely want to point out that I would never second guess the quality of what you do! And I did not intend to pigeon-hole you. I was comparing my cars for factual information, a Blue & Silver striped 06 coupe to a SSG Black striped 08 coupe, both desirable colors that bring a premium over some of the more basic colors. I honestly think it is more unfair for you to be comparing a desirable colored GenIV coupe pricing to a base color GenIII vert..... now we are talking apples to oranges. Peace out folks.... at least we have been providing some reading material on the forum, been a bit slow lately.

[06SRTCoupe]

Okay serious question. I thought that the main reason there aren't boosted Gen IV"s is, nobody makes a kit for them. So, my question is, is there a kit and where can I buy one?

Those Gen 3 engine bays are amazing. All those Gen IV parts make them look that way. Flame on! :smilielol:

[06SRTCoupe]

I should open another can of worms in here. :D

Can my Arrow motor take a 150 shot? If it can take said 150 shot, will I have to go stand alone or can HP Tuners hook me up? Yes it's Friday. Grab a beer, smile, and answer the damn question. :D

Okay I am totally joking about the last part of that sentence. :D

[SilverACR]

Okay serious question. I thought that the main reason there aren't boosted Gen IV"s is, nobody makes a kit for them. So, my question is, is there a kit and where can I buy one?

Those Gen 3 engine bays are amazing. All those Gen IV parts make them look that way. Flame on! :smilielol:

In those pics there is only 1 gen3 engine bay and 2 gen2s. Look how the hoods open. All look cool, but not all G3

And those look like modded G4 intakes or custom based on... except the last one under plastic could be a G5.

Judging by the valve covers they also have 4 or 5 heads...

[parabs]

In those pics there is only 1 gen3 engine bay and 2 gen2s. Look how the hoods open. All look cool, but not all G3

And those look like modded G4 intakes or custom based on... except the last one under plastic could be a G5.

Judging by the valve covers they also have 4 or 5 heads...

Those are Gen 4/5 intakes sitting on top of gen4/5 heads on top of viper blocks that were 8.3l or smaller when they left the factory. The cars are Gen 2 and Gen 3 cars in Dan’s photos.

Dan’s vx-700 kit is gen4/5 Intake and heads, a custom cam I believe, custom throttle bodies to work with the throttle cable cars, and tuning. And more I’m sure.

Prefix builds a kit with gen4/5 heads, a Gen 3 -> 4 Frankenstein intake, no cam (advertised as 650 bhp using stock cam), no exhaust and no tune for less $.

[Fatman2006]

Okay serious question. I thought that the main reason there aren't boosted Gen IV"s is, nobody makes a kit for them. So, my question is, is there a kit and where can I buy one?

Those Gen 3 engine bays are amazing. All those Gen IV parts make them look that way. Flame on! :smilielol:

:fpopcorn: lol

[SilverACR]

Those are Gen 4/5 intakes sitting on top of gen4/5 heads on top of viper blocks that were 8.3l or smaller when they left the factory. The cars are Gen 2 and Gen 3 cars in Dan’s photos.

Dan’s vx-700 kit is gen4/5 Intake and heads, a custom cam I believe, custom throttle bodies to work with the throttle cable cars, and tuning. And more I’m sure.

Prefix builds a kit with gen4/5 heads, a Gen 3 -> 4 Frankenstein intake, no cam (advertised as 650 bhp using stock cam), no exhaust and no tune for less $.

Yep all cool and I just want to point out that this thread was a comparison on the 3 and the 4. A lot of pissing back and forth about which year was more awesome. 2 of the pics show a G2 with a hybrid 3/4 engine... that certainly doesn’t answer anything here and probably confuses new to the viper people. Answer to all is both generations have their positives and negatives and if you really love vipers then equally enjoyable. My 2 favorite vipers hands down that I don’t own came from these years... 1) comp coups and 2) ACRX factory race cars! Debate them everyone!

[VIPER BAZ UK]

Great looking engine bays ....

[Stealth78]

Okay serious question. I thought that the main reason there aren't boosted Gen IV"s is, nobody makes a kit for them. So, my question is, is there a kit and where can I buy one?

Those Gen 3 engine bays are amazing. All those Gen IV parts make them look that way. Flame on! :smilielol:

Justin from JMP Performance made a Procharger kit for a GenIV. It was advertised here on the forum at one point. Car made incredible power but clearly it must have had upgraded internals. I will try and find the thread once I get back to my PC, I hate trying to search this forum on my phone.

- - - Updated - - -


Justin from JMP Performance made a Procharger kit for a GenIV. It was advertised here on the forum at one point. Car made incredible power but clearly it must have had upgraded internals. I will try and find the thread once I get back to my PC, I hate trying to search this forum on my phone.

Correction, that was supposed to say JMB

[Viper Specialty]

2 of the pics show a G2 with a hybrid 3/4 engine... that certainly doesn’t answer anything here and probably confuses new to the viper people.


It was posted right under the photos that I was poking fun. I and anyone else who knows what they are looking at would be well aware they were Gen-2 blocks in two of the photos. The others were indeed Gen-3 based.

This whole topic was about Gen-3 vs 4... but you also have to consider the moddability of Gen-3 in this thread, since its a MAJOR selling point compared to Gen-4. Thus, examples of the same were brought into the argument, because the fact is, you can do a lot, -easily- to a Gen-3 that you cannot do with a G4. The reality is that if you want 600-700HP and will be happy at that, grab a G4 for simplicity and color selection. If you want 800-1500+ or to tinker your ass off with combinations, grab a G3. If you want 1500+... grab any because it doesn't matter at that level in the same way.

[Stealth78]

Which Gen (out of III & IV) has a better block and crank? What is the difference between GenIII & GenIV connecting rods?

[1of1TA1.0]

Yep all cool and I just want to point out that this thread was a comparison on the 3 and the 4. A lot of pissing back and forth about which year was more awesome. 2 of the pics show a G2 with a hybrid 3/4 engine... that certainly doesn’t answer anything here and probably confuses new to the viper people. Answer to all is both generations have their positives and negatives and if you really love vipers then equally enjoyable. My 2 favorite vipers hands down that I don’t own came from these years... 1) comp coups and 2) ACRX factory race cars! Debate them everyone!


Ok :)

Comp Coupe hands down!! It is built safer, has a stiffer chassis, better AERO, and built better for full out racing.

The draw back, less power but still will be quicker with the same driver in both. I will say there is a huge difference in the comp coupes performance depending on how they were/are configured (sequential, world challenge aero, brakes, etc....)

Having said all that, I build an ACR-X clone back in the day. I would love to pick up a comp coupe if funds allowed, perfect track day car! I'd have to increase the HP though!

[13COBRA]

Ok :)

Comp Coupe hands down!! It is built safer, has a stiffer chassis, better AERO, and built better for full out racing.

The draw back, less power but still will be quicker with the same driver in both. I will say there is a huge difference in the comp coupes performance depending on how they were/are configured (sequential, world challenge aero, brakes, etc....)

Having said all that, I build an ACR-X clone back in the day. I would love to pick up a comp coupe if funds allowed, perfect track day car! I'd have to increase the HP though!

I'm the first one to want more power when it comes to anything....

But what fascinates me the most right now is the 2017 Elon NP01. At the Ultimate Track Car Challenege (VIR) the NP01 won the fastest lap at 2:01.083 in the rain with a measily 238hp. Granted, it weighs 1470# before the driver....

Second place finisher with a time of 2:05.089 was a 2017 Superlite SL-C equipped with a LS-7 based V8...with just under 700hp.

4 seconds faster, and 450+hp less.....nuts.

[Viper Specialty]

Which Gen (out of III & IV) has a better block and crank? What is the difference between GenIII & GenIV connecting rods?

Block and Crank are nearly identical between the generations. The crank is little more than a different trigger wheel, balance and metric threading for flywheel, and the block is basically a re-cast 05/06 variation with cam-in-cam solenoid and sensor provisions, metric threads, etc. The bulkheads are slightly stronger, but some of the reasoning there was the larger cam core, so its more of a material transition than anything else. Displacement is increased, but nearly negligible and Gen-3 can be overbored to the same if desired.

Gen-4 connecting rods are basically Gen-3 rods [04+ type] which have had bushings pressed in place for a full floating pin. You can run Gen-4 rods in a Gen-3 if you wanted to, provided you use some kind of a piston that can accommodate their OE pin size, or bore the Gen-3 block to use Gen-4 pistons.

What it comes down to is this: Is the Gen-4 more efficient with some tech upgrades? Yes. It is it also more fragile in some areas and ironically more stout in others? Yes. Most changes were by necessity of the cam-in-cam or by using available parts from another application. But its all detail work that can be applied to either generation, and would be deleted by default in the aftermarket. Things like overbore, piston materials, floating pins, etc are all aftermarket standard practice.

[RedTanRT/10]

Ok :)

Comp Coupe hands down!! It is built safer, has a stiffer chassis, better AERO, and built better for full out racing.

The draw back, less power but still will be quicker with the same driver in both. I will say there is a huge difference in the comp coupes performance depending on how they were/are configured (sequential, world challenge aero, brakes, etc....)

Having said all that, I build an ACR-X clone back in the day. I would love to pick up a comp coupe if funds allowed, perfect track day car! I'd have to increase the HP though!


TA, I love my CC, handles so great, has a close ratio sequential and so much safer than a street car. I was 515 rwhp and like you said, need more power. Just had the motor rebuilt by Exotic Engines plus better heads and cam. Made right about 700 on the engine stand. Dan Cragin sorting out the fuel delivery, new injectors and pump, made about 600 rwhp (660 on a dyno pak) but it started to lean out. Planning to get it on the track in late September, can't wait!!!


34289

[1of1TA1.0]

[QUOTE=RedTanRT/10;360247]TA, I love my CC, handles so great, has a close ratio sequential and so much safer than a street car. I was 515 rwhp and like you said, need more power. Just had the motor rebuilt by Exotic Engines plus better heads and cam. Made right about 700 on the engine stand. Dan Cragin sorting out the fuel delivery, new injectors and pump, made about 600 rwhp (660 on a dyno pak) but it started to lean out. Planning to get it on the track in late September, can't wait!!!


World Challenge too right?

The CC stay way more level than the ACR-X. I was a die hard ACR-X fan but the CC is definitely the better platform. HP to HP no comparison. One of these days I'll get one.

[RedTanRT/10]

Yeah WC body. Ran GT3 in the UK until I bought it. Late ‘06 build. Really nice, besides the sequential has the 6 piston Brembo Endurance brakes, had Center Locks (but I converted to studs), TC, dry break fuel and more.

[Aevus]

I sold my 08 coupe because I hated the drive by wire, crap low end and the ride/ handling wasn’t much better (if at all) than a Gen3 with equal tires. The Gen3 runflat or any runflat in a Viper sucks bad! My Gen4 was stupid $ to mod.

The best thing about Gen4 over Gen 3 is the TR6060 trans. Much improved.


But now I have a Gen3 with 850rwhp+ and a TR6060. Price wise....I saved 5k over what I got for my Gen4.

When it comes to Viper nothing price/performance beats a Gen3.

PS...I forgot to add sound. No Gen will sound like a Gen 3 with a Roe 710R cam and the crossover still in.......Pure eargasium.

Sorry to bring back this (great) thread from the dead but I'm curious... The sound is BETTER with the crossover still in ?? why

[1Willy1]

33900

Looks good Mamba

May I ask where you got that polished piece covering your exhaust?

[Viper Specialty]

As always... Gen-3 is the most underrated generation, bar none. I don't mean to offend, but the Gen-4 drives like a wet sack of newpapers by comparison. Sure, its got more HP. Great. It still has the most horrible clutch engagement delay and horribly set up "performance car" drive-by-wire programming on earth that had to be the result of either a weekend bender gone wrong or a lost bet.

That said... for those with deep pockets, the Gen-4 is not unfixable. I should start letting people drive my "Identity Challenged" G3/4 car and tell them its a G3... then pop the hood and show them what a proper clutch and DBW config can actually feel like.

[viperBase1]

As always... Gen-3 is the most underrated generation, bar none.
Ok fine, happy to take your word for it.
Its a Viper, that's all I need to know. I have no ill will for any car in the Viper family.



I don't mean to offend, but the Gen-4 drives like a wet sack of newpapers by comparison. Sure, its got more HP. Great. It still has the most horrible clutch engagement delay and horribly set up "performance car" drive-by-wire programming on earth that had to be the result of either a weekend bender gone wrong or a lost bet.
WHAT!!? Some might construe them as fighten words mister. :web_driver:
But not me ..not so much.

But what the hell are you talking about exactly?
Compared to what? My 2015 Porsche Cayman(?) which is another DBW car that has been heralded as one of the BEST EVER (by Car & Driver and MotorTrend)?
My GenIV handles A LOT like my Porsche and it's only 200lbs heavier. The GenIV has more overall raw grip due to the wider tires and stiff chasis.
But the two cars handle a lot alike.

[Viper Specialty]

But what the hell are you talking about exactly?
Compared to what? My 2015 Porsche Cayman(?) which is another DBW car that has been heralded as one of the BEST EVER (by Car & Driver and MotorTrend)?
My GenIV handles A LOT like my Porsche and it's only 200lbs heavier. The GenIV has more overall raw grip due to the wider tires and stiff chasis.
But the two cars handle a lot alike.

What I was referring to was right in the original message; the DBW manners, and the clutch engagement. Gen-3 is cable-throttle and instant, and the same for the clutch engagement. G4 has an OBNOXIOUSLY slow DBW program, and has an orifice control valve that slows engagement and is infuriating during quick shifts to someone like me used to the opposite. Nothing I said has anything to do with handling, and in fact, the G3 and G4 are effectively the same car shocks and tire choices aside... so not much of a conversation to have there.

However, for the sake of my comparison, the particular vehicle being "directly compared" is a drivetrain converted G3 car, that is effectively a Gen-4 from top to bottom and front to back, with the exception of being built, running a Tilton Triple Carbon and a Pectel managed Drive By Wire system instead of VENOM. The car drives EXACTLY like you would expect a Gen-3 car to drive.

What it proves is that it NOT the clutch or the DBW system specifically, it is the way that Dodge chose to set them up for production. Night and friggen day.

[Aevus]

Ok fine, happy to take your word for it.
Its a Viper, that's all I need to know. I have no ill will for any car in the Viper family.


WHAT!!? Some might construe them as fighten words mister. :web_driver:
But not me ..not so much.

But what the hell are you talking about exactly?
Compared to what? My 2015 Porsche Cayman(?) which is another DBW car that has been heralded as one of the BEST EVER (by Car & Driver and MotorTrend)?
My GenIV handles A LOT like my Porsche and it's only 200lbs heavier. The GenIV has more overall raw grip due to the wider tires and stiff chasis.
But the two cars handle a lot alike.

Well, I don't know...

Recently sold my 2016 Boxster GTS and it took a lot of modifications on my Gen3 to get the handling feeling a little closer to the 981, but certainly far from being ''a lot alike'', two very different beasts.

Porsche is a surgical precision machine while the Viper is blessed with endless mechanical grip (once you have 295/355 ACR's or similar) but the chassis (even on the Boxster) is most probably stiffer and better than the Viper. The 981 GTS suspension is great as is, when you add adjustable GT3 sway bars it's just amazing. If I EVER get so much as 80% of that feeling on my Gen3, I will open a bottle of Champagne!

Chassis/suspension/handling feel is surely not the selling point of the Viper. That's clearly Porsche, Mclaren kingdom.

That being said, I LOOOVE my Gen3 :-)

[viperBase1]

Those DBW issues SpecialtyPerformance mentioned have reasonably priced fixes. At least for the GenIV.
I don't know if the same applies to the GenIII.


Well, I don't know...

Recently sold my 2016 Boxster GTS and it took a lot of modifications on my Gen3 to get the handling feeling a little closer to the 981, but certainly far from being ''a lot alike'', two very different beasts.

Porsche is a surgical precision machine while the Viper is blessed with endless mechanical grip (once you have 295/355 ACR's or similar) but the chassis (even on the Boxster) is most probably stiffer and better than the Viper. The 981 GTS suspension is great as is, when you add adjustable GT3 sway bars it's just amazing. If I EVER get so much as 80% of that feeling on my Gen3, I will open a bottle of Champagne!

Chassis/suspension/handling feel is surely not the selling point of the Viper. That's clearly Porsche, Mclaren kingdom.

That being said, I LOOOVE my Gen3 :-)
Hmmm. I agree with some of your words.

Very different experience here between my GenIV and my base 981.
The biggest diff being the MASSIVE low end torque of the Viper. With most of power at the top end of the Porsche, requires a different approach.
My GenIV does have KW Coil Overs ..perhaps those help a bit. I dunno. One of the words often used to describe the Porsche 981 is "tossable".
The Porsche is a fun kind of tossable where the Viper is a serious kind of tossable that requires more concentration.

I already have the Conti Extreme Contact Sport+ tires on the Porsche (n' they're amazing) and I'm looking forward to running the same tires on the Viper.
I expect running the same exact tires to close the gap between them even further.

I LOOOVE my GenIV :orange: ..and my 981.
What a pair!!
48448

[Aevus]

What I was referring to was right in the original message; the DBW manners, and the clutch engagement. Gen-3 is cable-throttle and instant, and the same for the clutch engagement. G4 has an OBNOXIOUSLY slow DBW program, and has an orifice control valve that slows engagement and is infuriating during quick shifts to someone like me used to the opposite. Nothing I said has anything to do with handling, and in fact, the G3 and G4 are effectively the same car shocks and tire choices aside... so not much of a conversation to have there.

However, for the sake of my comparison, the particular vehicle being "directly compared" is a drivetrain converted G3 car, that is effectively a Gen-4 from top to bottom and front to back, with the exception of being built, running a Tilton Triple Carbon and a Pectel managed Drive By Wire system instead of VENOM. The car drives EXACTLY like you would expect a Gen-3 car to drive.

What it proves is that it NOT the clutch or the DBW system specifically, it is the way that Dodge chose to set them up for production. Night and friggen day.

Good to know.

Always tought gen4 was superior in every aspects to the gen3..

[Aevus]

As always... Gen-3 is the most underrated generation, bar none. I don't mean to offend, but the Gen-4 drives like a wet sack of newpapers by comparison. Sure, its got more HP. Great. It still has the most horrible clutch engagement delay and horribly set up "performance car" drive-by-wire programming on earth that had to be the result of either a weekend bender gone wrong or a lost bet.

Hahaha OUCH! :z:

Now i'm curious, I have to try a gen4

[Viper Specialty]

Those DBW issues SpecialtyPerformance mentioned have reasonably priced fixes. At least for the GenIV.
I don't know if the same applies to the GenIII.


-Negative. The only way to come even remotely close to Gen-3 pedal feel is with a true standalone that gives you full PID control over the throttles, as well as proportional control for the Pedal:Blade ratio. Any type of Venom adjustment or one of those Pedal Commanders is not even in the same ballpark.

-No, does not apply to Gen-3 whatsoever.

[Viper Specialty]

Good to know.

Always tought gen4 was superior in every aspects to the gen3..


Hahaha OUCH! :z:

Now i'm curious, I have to try a gen4


Try one. Dont get me wrong, the Gen-4 is absolutely a step ahead ON PAPER, and is refined in nearly every way. However, a couple of its refinements are absolutely a step backwards due to the way they were implemented. I can build myself anything I want, and personally, between the two I would choose a Gen-3 every time, and then pick and choose which aftermarket/Gen-4 components to use, and which to avoid. My personal car runs a fully built G4 engine, but retains hydraulic cooling, and is controlled by Pectel. In the same way, I run a modified G4 trans, but use a Tilton clutch. Rear end is Quaife/Mark Williams based. I tried to selectively use components that offer advantages, and then design/alter around any disadvantages. The end result is a "Gen-4" that drives like a Gen-3 in the responsiveness department, and does not have the lacking low-end that most Gen-4's have comparably.

All of that said... Gen-4 has a MUCH better color selection, and that does of course automatically create different camps right off the bat.

[ViperSRT]

Dan is absolutely correct regarding throttle by wire vs direct cable for the Viper. The thing I like better about the Gen 3 is the fun to drive aspect that comes from immediate throttle response. My Gen 3 is supercharged but the throttle response even at low rpms is decidedly superior. A too quick tip in with the Gen 3 results in tire spin, even if only momentary. In the Gen 5 the same quick on/off of the throttle results in almost no response.

I am surprised about the Gen 3 vs 4 comments thinking the Gen 4 is superior in almost every way. Nope. Yes better drivetrain (engine, trans and diff) for sure, though the TBW diminishes what could have been a great upgrade in power. The rest of the car is essentially the same except for colors, wheels and aero options.

[J TNT]

Dan is absolutely correct regarding throttle by wire vs direct cable for the Viper. The thing I like better about the Gen 3 is the fun to drive aspect that comes from immediate throttle response. My Gen 3 is supercharged but the throttle response even at low rpms is decidedly superior. A too quick tip in with the Gen 3 results in tire spin, even if only momentary. In the Gen 5 the same quick on/off of the throttle results in almost no response.

I am surprised about the Gen 3 vs 4 comments thinking the Gen 4 is superior in almost every way. Nope. Yes better drivetrain (engine, trans and diff) for sure, though the TBW diminishes what could have been a great upgrade in power. The rest of the car is essentially the same except for colors, wheels and aero options.


Try one. Dont get me wrong, the Gen-4 is absolutely a step ahead ON PAPER, and is refined in nearly every way. However, a couple of its refinements are absolutely a step backwards due to the way they were implemented. I can build myself anything I want, and personally, between the two I would choose a Gen-3 every time, and then pick and choose which aftermarket/Gen-4 components to use, and which to avoid. My personal car runs a fully built G4 engine, but retains hydraulic cooling, and is controlled by Pectel. In the same way, I run a modified G4 trans, but use a Tilton clutch. Rear end is Quaife/Mark Williams based. I tried to selectively use components that offer advantages, and then design/alter around any disadvantages. The end result is a "Gen-4" that drives like a Gen-3 in the responsiveness department, and does not have the lacking low-end that most Gen-4's have comparably.

All of that said... Gen-4 has a MUCH better color selection, and that does of course automatically create different camps right off the bat.


-Negative. The only way to come even remotely close to Gen-3 pedal feel is with a true standalone that gives you full PID control over the throttles, as well as proportional control for the Pedal:Blade ratio. Any type of Venom adjustment or one of those Pedal Commanders is not even in the same ballpark.

-No, does not apply to Gen-3 whatsoever.

Thanks for posting DAN and Ron ,
When I hear the Gen 3 bashing on Crackbook , makes me realize some don't factor all the pros and cons and only see what's on paper.........
My preference would be a modded Gen 3 over a Stock Gen 4 and DBW .

[Heysie]

and does not have the lacking low-end that most Gen-4's have comparably.


Why is it that a Gen IV lacks low-end power.
Coming from a Gen I, it's very noticeable.

[TheMadMachinist]

After reading this thread it seems Dan has bought up a couple of valid points on the deficiencies of the gen 4 platform. For me personally the few advantages that the gen 4 does have over the gen 3. Out weighs those two deficiencies Dan mentioned. I am guessing that it is due to my lack of driving prowess that I really never even felt the drive by wire delay until after I installed a one of those peddle controllers. Yes I do understand that this is only a bandaid and not a real solution. But at my driving level the addition of that comptroller totally changed the power delivery and it's even adjustable.

I do have a question for those that feel that the gen 4 is lacking on low end power as Heysie has stated about. As this is something I myself have never felt having own a gen 2 in the past. Is it really the lack of low end power or is it the drive by wire not tipping in fast enough? I find it hard to believe that someone coming from a gen 1 to a gen 4 that must have over 200 ft lbs more of torque than a gen 1 would feel the gen 4 noticeable lacking in low end power.

[efnfast]

If i'd driven my Gen 4 before buying it I might not have because of the throttle response - I agree it's absolutely positively horrible. Worst DBW in the history of DBW. Makes the car feel like it has 100ft-lbs of torque max.

But install TKO's throttle solution and set it to ~30-40% and it's fantastic - instant response and pulls hard as it should.

Gen 4 + $500 part > all else

[J TNT]

Here is a graph of GEN 1 TO 4 Stock power . Gen 3 is pulling stronger up to 3800 RPM This is what most feel while Street Driving .......


48477

[Viper Specialty]

I do have a question for those that feel that the gen 4 is lacking on low end power as Heysie has stated about. As this is something I myself have never felt having own a gen 2 in the past. Is it really the lack of low end power or is it the drive by wire not tipping in fast enough? I find it hard to believe that someone coming from a gen 1 to a gen 4 that must have over 200 ft lbs more of torque than a gen 1 would feel the gen 4 noticeable lacking in low end power.

It is a combination of things;

1. Yes, the Gen-4/5 engines do have a lower power output at lower RPM. This is a combination of decreased port velocities due to the increased flow rate of components, and the positioning of the Variable Cam. The VCam's primary function is to reduce emissions, which it does by increasing EGR during lower loads. As this is occurring, power is reduced until the cam position advances.

2. The Pedal-to-blade ratio is horrible. This is what causes a lack of expected response based on pedal movement, making the car feel slower than actual because you need to mash the gas to get anything out of it.

3. The DBW Throttle PID is laggy and underpowered. The amount of current available for blade positioning is low, and based on what I can see the system uses too little Proportional, and too much Integral based correction, or is excessively filtered. In either case, this causes "blips" or "stabs" to be filtered out, rather than responded to. Quick movements at the pedal result in little to no movement at the blade. This is INFURIATING when shifting quickly or rev-matching.

[Viper Specialty]

If i'd driven my Gen 4 before buying it I might not have because of the throttle response - I agree it's absolutely positively horrible. Worst DBW in the history of DBW. Makes the car feel like it has 100ft-lbs of torque max.

But install TKO's throttle solution and set it to ~30-40% and it's fantastic - instant response and pulls hard as it should.

Gen 4 + $500 part > all else

This type of device helps with Issue #2, but it will not help #1 or #3. That said, cost/gain is very good for a simple device vs. a stand-alone system.

[viperBase1]

Here is a graph of GEN 1 TO 4 Stock power . Gen 3 is pulling stronger up to 3800 RPM This is what most feel while Street Driving .......
48477
Thanks for the graph J.
Tells me everything I need to know.

[Steve-Indy]

Drive a stock Gen III then a stock 2008 Gen IV back-to-back and no further explanation will be necessary. The Gen III gets it on starting as soon as you hammer it.

[Aevus]

Drive a stock Gen III then a stock 2008 Gen IV back-to-back and no further explanation will be necessary. The Gen III gets it on starting as soon as you hammer it.

... and simply add 67mm TB + K&N air intake + UD pulley and you have something that feels as instantaneous as an electric car.

[Viper Specialty]

Drive a stock Gen III then a stock 2008 Gen IV back-to-back and no further explanation will be necessary. The Gen III gets it on starting as soon as you hammer it.

Exactly. There is more to how a car drives and responds than the power it makes.

[Gen3CoupeTX]

I went looking for a Gen 4, but Bernie (VE) wanted more for the one I had my eye on than I was willing to pay.

I paid a lot less for a Gen 3, supercharged coupe. I've had it over four years, absolutely love the damn thing!

I swear mine can tell when I'm thinking of accelerating. Prior Gen 2 GTS had similar 'right now' throttle.

[Steve M]

The throttle response in the Gen 4 isn't that bad. As long as you plan out far enough in advance (a couple of weeks is sufficient), it'll generally do what you want it to...if it feels like it.

[Aevus]

Hahaha!

THAT alone is sufficient to stop me buying a gen 4, ever.

Seriously, what's the point of having a lot of N/A torque if it's not delivered quickly?

[IndyRon]

My 2 biggest complaints with my Gen 4....what seems like 5 min delay between pedal application and power delivery and the fact that the car is way under geared for the way the motor makes power.

[Aevus]

My 2 biggest complaints with my Gen 4....what seems like 5 min delay between pedal application and power delivery and the fact that the car is way under geared for the way the motor makes power.

common issue for both gen 3 and 4.

Must put at least 3.55 final gears, did 3.73 on my gen 3 and could probably go for 3.91 since I have 27.50'' rear tire

[Old School]

common issue for both gen 3 and 4.


My Gen3 doesn't have any throttle delay, the tip-in is pretty aggressive.

[Aevus]

My Gen3 doesn't have any throttle delay, the tip-in is pretty aggressive.

was refering to undergear comment, not the throttle delay (gen3 = cable, so it's good)

[RobertP]

If anyone has any issues with throttle on a Gen 3, contact Greg Good, get his head and cam setup. at 600RWHP and 600RWTQ my response is immediate even with my 3.07 gearing.

[Aevus]

If anyone has any issues with throttle on a Gen 3, contact Greg Good, get his head and cam setup. at 600RWHP and 600RWTQ my response is immediate even with my 3.07 gearing.

I don't think anyone have problem with gen 3 (cable) throttle, Dan Lesser underlined the gen 4 issue (bad throttle-by-wire). Also, throttle response and gearing is not the same ''feel'' even though it's kind of similar

[Mamba003]

I have driven all gens and my gen3 is much more of a thrill with insane, instant power everywhere, much more mechanical feel and definitely more visceral. It put down 613 and 589. It’s the last of mechanical throttle bodies - yes plural for me haha. Thanks to Dan at VS.

[Mamba003]

48804

Look very closely. Hahaha

[commandomatt]

I have driven all gens and my gen3 is much more of a thrill with insane, instant power everywhere, much more mechanical feel and definitely more visceral. It put down 613 and 589. It’s the last of mechanical throttle bodies - yes plural for me haha. Thanks to Dan at VS.

Agree 100%. I prefer my 06 when it comes to how it feels when driving. Paxton helps making it a very exciting experience. I don’t care that the interior isn’t as fancy as the 5’s. Actually the seats are more comfortable for me in the 06.

[Mamba003]

The only downside to the GenIII is the rear Diff and possibly the suspension. Upgrade those and add some power and its hard to beat. Had mine since 2005. I tried to upgrade time and time again but nothing could match the overall driving experience in my build.

[Aevus]

The only downside to the GenIII is the rear Diff and possibly the suspension.

- transmission
- oiling system

Diff and suspension, yes, but ''needed'' on both gen3 & 4 I think

[Mamba003]

Yes the T6060 is an upgrade but not worth the cost as the T56 works fine. The suspension on the G4 was definitely tweaked but def can be signficantly improved upon.

As for the oiling system, that is another Good point. The gen 3 have known issues with the oil starvation on sustained high G turns. However if your not road racing i don't think its an issue. Mine is upgraded with a modified GenIV pan and swing arm via VS.





- transmission
- oiling system

Diff and suspension, yes, but ''needed'' on both gen3 & 4 I think

[Heysie]

48804

Look very closely. Hahaha

More info on this?

[Mamba003]

https://www.viperclub.org/vca/threads/gen-iii-to-gen-iv-engine-build.648544/



More info on this?

[Aevus]

As for the oiling system, that is another Good point. The gen 3 have known issues with the oil starvation on sustained high G turns. However if your not road racing i don't think its an issue. Mine is upgraded with a modified GenIV pan and swing arm via VS.


Blew my engine few months ago because of the oil starvation issue. Word of advice to everyone: if you modify your suspension or put sticky tires, don't track your gen 3 without a swing arm oil pan (from a gen4 or compe coupe). Was lucky, I stopped the car in time and my crankshaft was still OK.

I was not even pushing the car hard, i'm not a pro driver by any stretch, and the main bearing failed very quickly.

[Aevus]

So to sum it up, based on my experience, mandatory modifications on the gen 3 ... The most obvious ''flaws'' compared to gen4 or even gen 5:

- Oiling system (swing arm oil pan)
- Suspension (that includes solid sway bars and alignment)
- Final gears (3.55 or 3.73 works well) and diff if you have the budget
- Tires (Michelin, Kuhmo ACR's... NOT Nitto)

YES, obviously having 600 or 640bhp is fun... But the gen 3's 500bhp can be more than enough with the proper mods. It will feel faster, more stable and safer.

Then, if you crave for more power it's pretty easy: BBK or single blade throttle body + K&N + tune, and then a bigger camshaft if you're into that. 600-650bhp on a gen 3 is not exactly difficult to get, but the list above is needed before, IMO.

[Mamba003]

Btw my car is for sale.

[J TNT]

48804

Look very closely. Hahaha

Who ever buys this car is getting a great deal, and top tier mod's !!!

[Viper GTS-R]

Who ever buys this car is getting a great deal, and top tier mod's !!!
So why don’t you sell your Mustang and buy it! Lol.

[J TNT]

So why don’t you sell your Mustang and buy it! Lol.

Because my car has or will have those mods by next spring............lol !
And I currently have 5 vehicles ........