BBG VS Belanger Headers

[MKALSABAH]

Which one gives me more HP & TQ?
Which one Has a better sound?
Price Difference?

[ACRucrazy]

Which one gives me more HP & TQ?
Which one Has a better sound?
Price Difference?

I have yet to see a direct dyno comparison between the two.

Which has better sound? BBG or Belangers? That is opinion. I have heard Belangers on a locals ACR and they sound very nice!

Now BBG has a few headers. There is the BBG/American Racing Headers (headers used on the ACR-X race cars) shown here:

http://driveviper.com/classifieds/exhaust/p165-bbg-acr-x-arh-headers-gen-iv.html

And there is the new BBG modular headers Toddy is making shown here.

http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/1187-BBG-VIPER-GTS-R-Modular-Race-Headers-G5-G4-Fitment

The new modular headers are about 2x the price as the original BBG/ACRX headers depending on how you option new ones out.
Figure about $2600- for the originals + $for cats to $$$$ more depending on if you want his new shorts or long tubes posted above.

Belangers are about $3000 without cats to $3800 with cats IIRC for Gen IV/V?

Which has better quality? Based on what I have seen so far, the new BBG headers look to be top of the food chain for quality Viper headers. But so is the price. CNC flanges, V clamps tig welding. They sure look good! (I have a set on order, guess we will see when they get here!)

The Belangers are proven no doubt, they are a tri-Y design. I would think the 5 into 1 BBG would produce more peak power. I guess it depends what you want from the header and at what point are the Belangers going to hurt you? I recall supercharged Gen 2/3 Vipers would have to remove the "famous pickle" in the Belangers because they it was a restriction once you really start pouring on the power.

What do race cars use? Tri-Y or 5 into 1? But then again.. when are our street cars driven like a LeMans car?

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/064/8/0/viper_gts_r_v10_by_detroitdemigod-d3b02g6.jpg

http://img2.netcarshow.com/Dodge-Viper_GTS-R_1998_1280x960_wallpaper_07.jpg

[Garron]

You really should listen to both systems. (in person if possible) They sound very different.

The only thing I don't like about the ARH header is the gasket between the upper and lower parts of the header. If it leaks it will take out your motor mount.

[MKALSABAH]

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

I know there is videos of the Belangers but is there videos on BBG?

- - - Updated - - -

whats ARH?

[ACRucrazy]

ARH = American Racing Headers.

The ARH headers are the ACR-X headers. These are the old BBG headers. If someone says ARH or ACR-X or BBG headers they are referring to the same thing. The tag welded on the primary tube says "Bad Boyzz Series American Racing Headers". These are the headers that came equipped on the ACR-X. So they are all the same.

Now BBG is making different, longer tube headers. Those are the ones I linked that are quite a bit more $$.
The first run are in production now, no one has a set in hand yet as far as I know, so I don't think you will see any videos of the new BBG headers just yet.


Old BBG

http://forums.viperclub.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=6902&d=1268803942

http://forums.viperclub.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=6904&d=1268801182


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhEEHmciJ9k


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45zzkFuumOk


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkwX71S4pUs


New BBG

http://gallery.viperclub.org/data/500/medium/BBG_GTS-R_2.JPG

[FLATOUT]

I really want to see a new set from Toddy on a car, they look great!

[Policy Limits]

Looks & sounds awesome!!

[Voice of Reason]

For me the key to either header is not throwing a CEL. Because we cannot tune, which ever one shows the best gains, doesn't throw a CEL, and is "reasonably" priced will get my money. If the BBGs are twice what their originals cost, and the originals were $2,600 plus the cost of cats, then I have to rule them out. That's a lot of coin for just headers. Their modular design switching between the short and long designs is VERY cool, but IMO is more of a benefit to them and their manufacturing and inventory management routines than a benefit to a buyer. I don't see people buying both and swapping between them because without the ability to tune I don't know who the long design buyers are, it's certainly not anyone who primarily drives on the street.

[mjorgensen]

For me the key to either header is not throwing a CEL. Because we cannot tune, which ever one shows the best gains, doesn't throw a CEL, and is "reasonably" priced will get my money. If the BBGs are twice what their originals cost, and the originals were $2,600 plus the cost of cats, then I have to rule them out. That's a lot of coin for just headers. Their modular design switching between the short and long designs is VERY cool, but IMO is more of a benefit to them and their manufacturing and inventory management routines than a benefit to a buyer. I don't see people swapping them because without the ability to tune I don't know who the long design buyers are, it's certainly not anyone who primarily drives on the street.

We have installed 7 Belangers and sold 4 more with no CEL at this time. There is a car in AZ that has more then 4000 miles on a set without any issues.

That being said Toddy's headers look awesome and I'm sure he will sell a ton of them.

[Voice of Reason]

We have installed 7 Belangers and sold 4 more with no CEL at this time. There is a car in AZ that has more then 4000 miles on a set without any issues.

That being said Toddy's headers look awesome and I'm sure he will sell a ton of them.

Thanks, I've been keeping up with your posts on the Belangers. Once someone posts a dyno showing a decent gain I'll be placing my order for them.

[ACRucrazy]

For me the key to either header is not throwing a CEL. Because we cannot tune, which ever one shows the best gains, doesn't throw a CEL, and is "reasonably" priced will get my money. If the BBGs are twice what their originals cost, and the originals were $2,600 plus the cost of cats, then I have to rule them out. That's a lot of coin for just headers. Their modular design switching between the short and long designs is VERY cool, but IMO is more of a benefit to them and their manufacturing and inventory management routines than a benefit to a buyer. I don't see people swapping them because without the ability to tune I don't know who the long design buyers are, it's certainly not anyone who primarily drives on the street.

If I recall Toddys original post on the VCA he was thinking the long tubes would come in at about $5400 and the short tubes were about $1000 less. I don't know what he has them priced at at the moment, if interested you should send him a message.

[IndyRon]

I spoke to Toddy yesterday about the progress on the headers. He's still in fabrication and they are at least a couple weeks out. If I can get them soon enough, I'll be doing a full write up and installation on them with back to back dyno numbers.

[slitherv10]

If I recall Toddys original post on the VCA he was thinking the long tubes would come in at about $5400 and the short tubes were about $1000 less. I don't know what he has them priced at at the moment, if interested you should send him a message.

Not to sound discouraging to some, but, is 5400 a good bang for your buck considering the amount of HP which varies from 20-40Hp at the crank for headers/sound, worth that money....really?
Geez ..with a few more dollars you got a SC and or some nice heads cam from GG which both of those set ups will give you better Hp numbers, flow and sound.

Just saying. I realize, and I am one culprit as I have added Belangers to my 96, its the thing to do and the sound of the Viper is enhanced, but, for the money, it is discerning. To me anyway when I think about the return you et for the money you put in
I see Belanger guarantee 50+ RWHP and even more for the Gen 2 and I have yet to see a comparison and proof of that which personally I doubt a simple exhaust swap will show those numbers on a dyno.

[Dan Cragin]

Well it depends on the year model. The Gen 4-5 cars sound the best with the ARH/BBG headers and make more peak power. The Belangers make more torque down low which is better for street use, but have a tone thats kind of flat at idle (Gen 4-5 0nly).

The BBG race headers are great for track cars and those who want to pay the price for true high end motorsports headers, really cool stuff.

[ACRucrazy]

Not to sound discouraging to some, but, is 5400 a good bang for your buck considering the amount of HP which varies from 20-40Hp at the crank for headers/sound, worth that money....really?
Geez ..with a few more dollars you got a SC and or some nice heads cam from GG which both of those set ups will give you better Hp numbers, flow and sound.

The super long tube headers are for those running higher compression, different computer in an all out race car. And to those that are going to spend $20k+ on their engine the extra cost for those headers will not be a concern. Whatever he has them priced currently I don't know, but he originally mentioned $5400 in his first thread on the VCA. You can't compare his price to other headers because there are no other headers available that compare to these.

http://gallery.viperclub.org/data/500/medium/BBG_GTS-R_5.JPG

Those that want the best of what they can get will look to these headers as an option. I am very excited to get my "shorty street version"

http://gallery.viperclub.org/data/500/medium/BBG_GTS-R_3.JPG

Those that want to shop for bang for the buck will look elsewhere and that is O.K. The other options out there are nice and produce results, but to me I don't see the same quality as I do in the BBG.

http://gallery.viperclub.org/data/500/medium/BBG_GTS-R_1.JPG

No need talking Gen 2 stuff or SC and cams since this thread is in regards to the Gen V and IV engine.

[slitherv10]

The super long tube headers are for those running higher compression, different computer in an all out race car. And to those that are going to spend $20k+ on their engine the extra cost for those headers will not be a concern. Whatever he has them priced currently I don't know, but he originally mentioned $5400 in his first thread on the VCA. You can't compare his price to other headers because there are no other headers available that compare to these.

http://gallery.viperclub.org/data/500/medium/BBG_GTS-R_5.JPG

Those that want the best of what they can get will look to these headers as an option. I am very excited to get my "shorty street version"

http://gallery.viperclub.org/data/500/medium/BBG_GTS-R_3.JPG

Those that want to shop for bang for the buck will look elsewhere and that is O.K. The other options out there are nice and produce results, but to me I don't see the same quality as I do in the BBG.

http://gallery.viperclub.org/data/500/medium/BBG_GTS-R_1.JPG

No need talking Gen 2 stuff or SC and cams since this thread is in regards to the Gen V and IV engine.

Gotcha. Lost track of where I was (forum wise).

Thanks for clarifying. Its nice to know what is on the other side of the fence, as I rarely track over to that side. Must say though, they look awesome no matter what the cost.

[IndyRon]

Not to sound discouraging to some, but, is 5400 a good bang for your buck considering the amount of HP which varies from 20-40Hp at the crank for headers/sound, worth that money....really?
Geez ..with a few more dollars you got a SC and or some nice heads cam from GG which both of those set ups will give you better Hp numbers, flow and sound.

Just saying. I realize, and I am one culprit as I have added Belangers to my 96, its the thing to do and the sound of the Viper is enhanced, but, for the money, it is discerning. To me anyway when I think about the return you et for the money you put in
I see Belanger guarantee 50+ RWHP and even more for the Gen 2 and I have yet to see a comparison and proof of that which personally I doubt a simple exhaust swap will show those numbers on a dyno.

I totally get what you are saying and while I have a set of the new BBG headers on order, I also agree with you. When Toddy ran the shorter version of this new header on the dyno, they made huge gains across the powerband with a peak of +85hp and +80tq on the engine dyno....stock motor, only headers added. This was the main reason I bought them, I don't want to leave a single HP on the table with all the boltons and I'm expecting the headers alone to make +60rwhp/tq, maybe a bit more. I don't really care about subjective sound opinions, these cars always sound kinda weird anyway without a cool exhaust note like a V12 ferrari or 302 mustang....so power is the only motivation for me.

[Dman]

Wow, 85/80 gains are huge, for a header swap, that seems like a perfcet mod. If no CEL, computer or emissions issues, I'd think a 725hp viper package with the reliability and ease this brings would make hoards of people happy. I know some whine over the 700 number being from the factory, but we're talking just a header swap, few things are as simple & straight forward with mods. If this all pans out, I say it's amaze-balls.

[ACRucrazy]

These were his results on a Ilmor Gen IV engine. It will be interesting to see more results once they are in cars in the following months.




OK Gentlemen, fresh off the SuperFlow Engine Dynamometer..

Baseline Test #1: Gen 4 Viper Engine with OE Exhaust Manifolds and Cats Installed (3K miles on cats)
615.4 HP @ 6200 rpm
553.9 TRQ @ 5000 rpm

Test Engine: ILMOR / Penske Racing Viper Gen 4 Engine with Forged Internals
Test Location: ILMOR / Penske Racing - Plymouth Michigan Sept 5, 2013


Baseline Test #2: Bad Boyzz Garage's GTS-R Viper Gen 5 / Gen 4 "Shorty" Race Headers Installed with 3" Finished Pipe (Bolt-On's Only..:usa:)
701 HP @ 6300 rpm
627 TRQ @ 5200 rpm

Test Engine: ILMOR / Penske Racing Viper Gen 4 Engine with Forged Internals
Test Location: ILMOR / Penske Racing - Plymouth Michigan Sept 5, 2013

[Simms]

Will the BBG shorty headers match up with all aftermarket high flow cats and exhausts? Or do they run their own?

[ACRucrazy]

I was told I can still use my Corsa, which is my intention.

[ViperSmith]

that is an insane increase in HP

[cashcorn]

I have yet to see a stock gen v pull strong #'s. well.. other than Ralph's!

[FrgMstr]

I am all over it if I can pop an extra 50hp, but I will have to see the dyno numbers from a few sources before I would believe it.

[slitherv10]

These were his results on a Ilmor Gen IV engine. It will be interesting to see more results once they are in cars in the following months.

Did that HP increase with the headers installed have anything to do with the fact that the engine is a racing forged engine with I'm guessing mods to it. Can you get that 85HP increase if you just add it to a stock Gen 5/4 engine or would you need to get the engine done to what the ILMOR / Penske Racing Viper Gen 4 Engine has in it ?

[FLATOUT]

Did that HP increase with the headers installed have anything to do with the fact that the engine is a racing forged engine with I'm guessing mods to it. Can you get that 85HP increase if you just add it to a stock Gen 5/4 engine or would you need to get the engine done to what the ILMOR / Penske Racing Viper Gen 4 Engine has in it ?

That's the question. I think they'll do well but don't think they'll make as much as 85. Rear wheel 35-45 would be excellent without a tune.

[Shooter]

Wow 85 hp huh. I'd sure like to see the gains on a stock G4/G5 car engine. The marine engines are a different setup then what the cars run.

[Steve M]

Did that HP increase with the headers installed have anything to do with the fact that the engine is a racing forged engine with I'm guessing mods to it. Can you get that 85HP increase if you just add it to a stock Gen 5/4 engine or would you need to get the engine done to what the ILMOR / Penske Racing Viper Gen 4 Engine has in it ?

Doubtful...the only difference between the runs were the addition of the headers (which also removed the factory cats). The cat delete would definitely play a part in the numbers generated, but the engine was not changed between runs, nor was the calibration.

I'm sure we won't see 80+ HP when people start bolting these on, but I'm sure the numbers will be pretty impressive.

[IndyRon]

Did that HP increase with the headers installed have anything to do with the fact that the engine is a racing forged engine with I'm guessing mods to it. Can you get that 85HP increase if you just add it to a stock Gen 5/4 engine or would you need to get the engine done to what the ILMOR / Penske Racing Viper Gen 4 Engine has in it ?

The engine, according to Toddy's post did not have ported heads, no ported intake, no UD pulleys, No tuning between runs. Basically an OE spec setup as evidenced by the 615 crank HP. Forged pistons are not worth any additional power, in fact, forged pistons usually cost you a couple HP because they are heavier and you can't run as tight piston to wall clearances and ring gaps with them due to expansion compared to cast.

I hate engine dyno's for anything except relative comparisons because the numbers don't mean anything excluding the drivetrain losses for a street car, but back to back differences in dyno numbers under controlled conditions are good enough for me in this comparison. Since our viper does not have a 60% drivetrain loss and the test mule V10's were stock spec according to Toddy, I don't see how they would make only 35rwhp. Either way, if Toddy can get these done soon, we will find out.

[FLATOUT]

I said 35 rwhp or more would be great without tune. Wasn't implying I thought that's what they would make.

[mjorgensen]

Dynos are dynos, the real test will be 1/4 mile speeds to determine real world gains, but it never happens back to back unfortunately so there will have to be a large collection of data points with like cars I guess.

[BAD BOYZZ GARAGE]

Dynos are dynos, the real test will be 1/4 mile speeds to determine real world gains, but it never happens back to back unfortunately so there will have to be a large collection of data points with like cars I guess.


Gentlemen,

I've been made aware of this thread by a client and I appreciate everyone's comments and opinions. Since our New BBG GTS-R Modular Race Headers (BBG Race Headers) are specified I'd like to comment and update on our progress. Several sets are complete and just finalizing the finishing touches to ensure the highest level of quality that our clients are expecting from a BBG product..

We now have the 2013' NARRA TT Champ (Archer Racing Team Prepped Viper) who ran our G4/G5 ultra light triple disc race clutch all 2013' season, signed up for a set of our BBG "Super Long" race headers and a SCCA World Challenge Competition Coupe crew chief "Rick Maxwell" on board running a custom spec'd set of our BBG "Super Long" stepped race headers for their new G4 cylinder headed race engine program (restrictor plate racing). Much thanks and respect to the level of build knowledge and preparation quality that goes into the race cars that these teams produce!

So this is good news, our BBG Race Headers being run in race Viper's as engineered (Modular Specification - custom built to clients engine setup and race environment). This fact alone distinguishes and sets our BBG Race Header Program apart from other manufactures.. However our "Shorty" spec race header would be my recommendation as the go to G5/G4 bolt on header that will make maximum power and function correctly with Viper's PCM..!!

A set of our BBG "Shorty" Race Headers along with our new G5 Competition Clutch with Integrated Adjustable Pedal Stop and a set of our new BBG Ohlins 3 way Race Shocks should be a strong contender for "King of the Hill" Viper G5/G4 bolt-on kits..!! :United_States:

As far as RWHP numbers goes, I think we would all agree that obviously these numbers will be less than what was produced at the crank on our initial Dyno cell testing, taking into consideration driveline loss, other real world conditions such as tire pressure, strap down techniques, trans temps, diff temps, clutch slippage, data input and the differences in chassis Dyno's recorded power output (ie. Mustang, Super Flow, Dynamite, Dyna Pack and Dyno Jet ect.).. This being said I went to the best in the industry for power development testing and was very pleased in our results. Three days at facility and 7 hours of actual Dyno testing with complete video and data graphs to back the consistency of power output from OE Viper exhaust manifold / OE cat dyno pulls, to BBG Race Header dyno pulls run in six different configurations..

Dyno's are Dyno's true to some extend so that's why we've purchased our new DynoJet 224XL inertia chassis dyno that is arguably the best in the industry for the repeatability factor... Then there are the Dyno cells that set industry standards, like the ones used at Ilmor/Penske Engineering that test and tune their Indy, off shore Viper race and Nascar engine programs.. They take every possible mechanical, electrical, air, fuel, temp, driveline, chassis, track and many more factors into consideration when developing an engine, very impressive I must say! Each race team that purchases an Ilmor/Penske race engine expects power ratings to be exactly the same as other race teams, which at this level is highly scrutinized by the sanctioning body's and fellow race competitors. Their engineering standards are second to none and are the best engine building facility I've had the privilege of testing my parts in, hands down!!

I'm quite confident that when our clients get their headers in hand and installed they'll be down at their local speed shop's for some Dyno time and will post and share their power results!!

If anyone would like to send me a set of Belanger G5 Headers I will do a back to back Dyno comparison with our BBG "Shorty" Race Headers with full video documentation and post results for the Viper Nations review..

Thanks to all of our clients for believing in our new Header Program!!

BAD BOYZZ GARAGE
Toddy
1337 North Market Blvd. Ste 100
Sacramento CA 95834
(916) 505-9026
Info@Badboyzzgarage.com

=DISTRIBUTORS OF POWER=:United_States:

[FrgMstr]

I would love to see some Belanger vs. BBG numbers. Please please please! Thanks for all you do for our community Toddy.

[FLATOUT]

Good post Toddy. Looking forward to seeing hey they do.

[Voice of Reason]

I appreciate BBG coming in and adding to the thread. And their reassurance that it's going to play nicely with the stock PCM should give people some peace of mind.

[TrackAire]

"If anyone would like to send me a set of Belanger G5 Headers I will do a back to back Dyno comparison with our BBG "Shorty" Race Headers with full video documentation and post results for the Viper Nations review.."

It's almost as if Toddy already knows what the outcome of that dyno comparison would be.....hmm, interesting.

These should be the easiest of all headers to install since they have 3 separate sets of primary tubes that bolt to each head.

Cheers,
George

[Jack B]

Not that it is a major issue, however, the biggest problem is getting the oem headers off. on the drivers side you have to pull the xbrace and the valve cover, which means all five coil packs. Instead of pulling the valve cover, I believe you could also pull the starter, that might be a second method. The passenger side is easier, just the air box has to be removed. You will need every swivel ratchet, gear wrench and wobler extension in your tool box.



"If anyone would like to send me a set of Belanger G5 Headers I will do a back to back Dyno comparison with our BBG "Shorty" Race Headers with full video documentation and post results for the Viper Nations review.."

It's almost as if Toddy already knows what the outcome of that dyno comparison would be.....hmm, interesting.

These should be the easiest of all headers to install since they have 3 separate sets of primary tubes that bolt to each head.

Cheers,
George

[Shooter]

The engine, according to Toddy's post did not have ported heads, no ported intake, no UD pulleys, No tuning between runs. Basically an OE spec setup as evidenced by the 615 crank HP. Forged pistons are not worth any additional power, in fact, forged pistons usually cost you a couple HP because they are heavier and you can't run as tight piston to wall clearances and ring gaps with them due to expansion compared to cast.

I hate engine dyno's for anything except relative comparisons because the numbers don't mean anything excluding the drivetrain losses for a street car, but back to back differences in dyno numbers under controlled conditions are good enough for me in this comparison. Since our viper does not have a 60% drivetrain loss and the test mule V10's were stock spec according to Toddy, I don't see how they would make only 35rwhp. Either way, if Toddy can get these done soon, we will find out.

I must be missing something here. The G4 Ilmore is called a 725 because as they sit with their shorty polished stainless tube headers they make 725 horsepower on the Ilmor engine Dyno,. Where is the 85 hp gain?

[ACRucrazy]

What are you missing?

The Ilmor engine made 615/553 with the stock Gen IV manifolds and cats

http://gallery.viperclub.org/data/500/medium/BBG_GTS-R_TEST_COMPS.jpg

and 701/627 with the BBG "Shorty" headers.

http://gallery.viperclub.org/data/500/medium/BBG_GTS-R_4.JPG

[Shooter]

What are you missing?

The Ilmor engine made 615/553 with the stock Gen IV manifolds and cats



and 701/627 with the BBG "Shorty" headers.



Ok. So it "lost" 110 hp with the oem Gen 4 stuff, but only "lost" 24 hp with the BBG setup. That's where the 86 hp came from. Now I get it. Good on them for building something different, I just wasn't understanding the way the math was being done. Hopefully some good gains will transition to the street engines.

[ACRucrazy]

Not necessarily, and not that it matters. We don't know what that engine made with the marine headers, Ilmor may, but it doesn't matter since they would never fit or be used in a Viper.

The headers are a tuning fork and the Ilmors do not look like shorties to me They are not designed to be used on an engine that has a 6 speed transmission bolted behind it where there are gear changes and RPM changes. And peak numbers don't tell the whole story. Those marine headers are designed for the marine engine, to run at peak hp at peak RPM.

I don't think the engine "losing" power is the story here, I believe the engine making power over stock Gen IV setup is.

[Revolution]

I have a few theories I want to try out and see if I can keep low end and gain some on the top as well!

[ACRucrazy]

That's really cool that you are building your own set! Can't wait to hear how it goes.

[Revolution]

That's really cool that you are building your own set! Can't wait to hear how it goes.

Me too also doing some CNC head work, air box, and TB mods and plan to dyno everything is stages! Along with the headers also a full exhaust system as well to match!

[BAD BOYZZ GARAGE]

I must be missing something here. The G4 Ilmore is called a 725 because as they sit with their shorty polished stainless tube headers they make 725 horsepower on the Ilmor engine Dyno,. Where is the 85 hp gain?

Ilmore's Offshore Viper Race Headers are definitely not "Shorty".. They are a master piece in fabrication with vary large primary diameters and a true race merge collectors like you 'd see on a pro-stock engine.. Designed to produce maximum power out put at 6000 plus rpm's for extended duration. Hence offshore race engines.



Ok. So it "lost" 110 hp with the oem Gen 4 stuff, but only "lost" 24 hp with the BBG setup. That's where the 86 hp came from. Now I get it. Good on them for building something different, I just wasn't understanding the way the math was being done. Hopefully some good gains will transition to the street engines.

We feel pretty good about the power levels we achieved with our bolt-on set BBG "Shorty" spec Viper race headers.. One of our main goals for this particular dyno session was to produce a header configuration that will run perfectly in the G5/G4 factory parameters and produce max performance, we believe our "Shorty" is that header!

Now just to reiterate we make our headers in 2" to 2 1/4" primary options with collectors to match, for high compression, large port cylinder head and high lift / big duration cam applications, where needed for the 800 plus HP arena.


Thnx for your input and I hope this help to clarify a few of your points. Pictured below is Ilmore's Race Engine and a set of our smaller "Shorty" race headers.. Please keep in mind, two completely different applications, we at BBG are focused on 4 wheel racing (Road racing, Drag racing, Standing mile & Street)..

BAD BOYZZ GARAGE
Toddy






http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OwbHBs2z8HE

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[Shooter]

Not necessarily, and not that it matters. We don't know what that engine made with the marine headers, Ilmor may, but it doesn't matter since they would never fit or be used in a Viper.

The headers are a tuning fork and the Ilmors do not look like shorties to me They are not designed to be used on an engine that has a 6 speed transmission bolted behind it where there are gear changes and RPM changes. And peak numbers don't tell the whole story. Those marine headers are designed for the marine engine, to run at peak hp at peak RPM.

I don't think the engine "losing" power is the story here, I believe the engine making power over stock Gen IV setup is.

I gave you the answer. They are called 725 for a reason.

[Shooter]

Ilmore's Offshore Viper Race Headers are definitely not "Shorty".. They are a master piece in fabrication with vary large primary diameters and a true race merge collectors like you 'd see on a pro-stock engine.. Designed to produce maximum power out put at 6000 plus rpm's for extended duration. Hence offshore race engines.




We feel pretty good about the power levels we achieved with our bolt-on set BBG "Shorty" spec Viper race headers.. One of our main goals for this particular dyno session was to produce a header configuration that will run perfectly in the G5/G4 factory parameters and produce max performance, we believe our "Shorty" is that header!

Now just to reiterate we make our headers in 2" to 2 1/4" primary options with collectors to match, for high compression, large port cylinder head and high lift / big duration cam applications, where needed for the 800 plus HP arena.


Thnx for your input and I hope this help to clarify a few of your points. Pictured below is Ilmore's Race Engine and a set of our smaller "Shorty" race headers.. Please keep in mind, two completely different applications, we at BBG are focused on 4 wheel racing (Road racing, Drag racing, Standing mile & Street)..

BAD BOYZZ GARAGE
Toddy






http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OwbHBs2z8HE

3485

3486



It wasn't a dig against your product. I was just trying to understand how the #'s were being generated. I miss-spoke when I called them "shorty's". I am familiar with the Ilmor's and look forward to seeing some good gains.

[BAD BOYZZ GARAGE]

It wasn't a dig against your product. I was just trying to understand how the #'s were being generated. I miss-spoke when I called them "shorty's". I am familiar with the Ilmor's and look forward to seeing some good gains.

Thnx Shooter, I appreciate that!!

BAD BOYZZ
Toddy

[ACRucrazy]

I gave you the answer. They are called 725 for a reason.

I am well aware of what they are called & why. My point was it was not part of the comparison that day. I am glad you now understand where the dyno numbers came from on the BBG headers.

[cashcorn]

I would really like to see some dyno #'s on BBG vs Belanger for street use. Really looking for mid range pulls going into top end.

[IndyRon]

The undertones here are getting very well delineated! So we have North vs. South, Tri-Y vs 5-1, Bellanger/M&M vs BBG...only one can win. It should be interesting to see how this one plays out in a month or two when the new BBG headers hit the rollers! I like my odds tho...:D

[ACRucrazy]

Haha. I'm all for more options. Would be no fun if there was only one "go to" header.
Props to those thinking outside the box and building something fresh. The more the merrier I say.

[FLATOUT]

The undertones here are getting very well delineated! So we have North vs. South, Tri-Y vs 5-1, Bellanger/M&M vs BBG...only one can win. It should be interesting to see how this one plays out in a month or two when the new BBG headers hit the rollers! I like my odds tho...:D


Haha. I'm all for more options. Would be no fun if there was only one "go to" header.
Props to those thinking outside the box and building something fresh. The more the merrier I say.


Exactly, we all win. And in the past these have been terrible threads and usually ended up locked, where as this one remained very civil. I'm thrilled multiple shops are coming out and testing new stuff.

[Revolution]

I'm more looking for some track times and mph dyno are for tuning track measure accurately what the car is actually doing in my opinion

[FLATOUT]

I'm more looking for some track times and mph dyno are for tuning track measure accurately what the car is actually doing in my opinion

I just trapped 101.8 mph in the 1/8 in 70 degree weather on my v box. That's in an ACR with ACRX aero.

[Revolution]

Be nice to have numbers from a track then its equal terms. Good mph though I think that's what my car traps!!

[WSYSNAKE]

Would like a header that improving the sound.... I know the viper would always sound deep, but raising the pitch slightly would be perfect for me.

[IndyRon]

I'm more looking for some track times and mph dyno are for tuning track measure accurately what the car is actually doing in my opinion

That's obviously the goal here as an end result and the next step for me after dyno. The only problem with comparative 1/4 mile times in this case is the one confounding variable, the ACR aero package. The other variables such as DA, 60' times, etc. can be somewhat compensated for, but the aero on those of us participating in this little grudge match is going to hurt overall ET and even more so MPH. Since the guys who are pushing the OE Gen 4 platform hard are all ACR guys, we will still be able to compare times among each other, just not directly to the fastest times run by the base coupes with less drag.

[FLATOUT]

Be nice to have numbers from a track then its equal terms. Good mph though I think that's what my car traps!!

Well it wasn't in good air, it was on the street, and spun through some of first (bunch of excuses but honest info worth considering). Relative time was Nineballs Gen V went 10.97@127 (on drag radials) and ran 99.5mph in the 1/8 in much better DA on a prepped track. My car will trap 134-135 in good air with traction, on factory cup tires.

[ACRucrazy]

If someone sent me some Belanger headers I would almost consider doing back to back to back to back dynos.
Stock, Belanger, M&M, BBG, & ARH headers if I had access to them. I have access to a dynojet 424x 10 mins from my house.

[Revolution]

That's obviously the goal here as an end result and the next step for me after dyno. The only problem with comparative 1/4 mile times in this case is the one confounding variable, the ACR aero package. The other variables such as DA, 60' times, etc. can be somewhat compensated for, but the aero on those of us participating in this little grudge match is going to hurt overall ET and even more so MPH. Since the guys who are pushing the OE Gen 4 platform hard are all ACR guys, we will still be able to compare times among each other, just not directly to the fastest times run by the base coupes with less drag.

I wouldn't say all ate ACR guys :)

[BAD BOYZZ GARAGE]

Sneak Peak Set #1 Gentlemen!!

BBG GTS-R Modular Race Headers "Shorty" Snake Basket
3514

I run my ACR as God intended it to run!!
3515

BAD BOYZZ GARAGE
Toddy

=DISTRIBUTORS OF POWER=:t1567:

[SilveRT8]

If someone sent me some Belanger headers I would almost consider doing back to back to back to back dynos.
Stock, Belanger, M&M, BBG, & ARH headers if I had access to them. I have access to a dynojet 424x 10 mins from my house.

Yes, that's what we need, an apple to apple comparo on a Gen 4 or 5 engine with Cats too please, as we run them on the street.

[Dman]

Am I going to have to go out and buy a gen5 and get the headers and do a dyno compare? Not that I'm looing for any reason to HAVE to go buy a gen5, but ... I am. lol

Can't wait to see some results, looks exciting. I really think headers and gears might be the nirvana of mods for the gen5 to where it would be 'what more could you want' from the car. Big thanks to guys like Toddy making it happen and being so open about it all, keeping us informed.

Dave.

[Revolution]

If someone sent me some Belanger headers I would almost consider doing back to back to back to back dynos.
Stock, Belanger, M&M, BBG, & ARH headers if I had access to them. I have access to a dynojet 424x 10 mins from my house.

Wow that would be a ton of work man your a better man then me :)

[ViperTony]

Sneak Peak Set #1 Gentlemen!!

BBG GTS-R Modular Race Headers "Shorty" Snake Basket
3514

I run my ACR as God intended it to run!!
3515

BAD BOYZZ GARAGE
Toddy

=DISTRIBUTORS OF POWER=:t1567:

Impressive. How do you get the skirt to stay up like that? :D

[IndyRon]

Well it wasn't in good air, it was on the street, and spun through some of first (bunch of excuses but honest info worth considering). Relative time was Nineballs Gen V went 10.97@127 (on drag radials) and ran 99.5mph in the 1/8 in much better DA on a prepped track. My car will trap 134-135 in good air with traction, on factory cup tires.
Excellent post.....that also means mine will trap 136mph then. /smacktalk on/ :drive:


Sneak Peak Set #1 Gentlemen!!

BBG GTS-R Modular Race Headers "Shorty" Snake Basket
3514

I run my ACR as God intended it to run!!
3515

BAD BOYZZ GARAGE
Toddy

=DISTRIBUTORS OF POWER=:t1567:
Hey Toddy, those are mine....stop taking pictures and get them to Jet Hot! :dancingman:

[ACRucrazy]

Wow that would be a ton of work man your a better man then me :)

I know haha. Hence the almost.
I figure no one has done it. Everyone wonders. I have the shop and dyno. A weekend of busting ass to have some answers. If the opportunity was there I would probably do it.

[FLATOUT]

Well I'll have a back to back, same car, same dyno comparo or the original ARH headers against the M&M's. Should have my car on the dyno tomorrow for the new setup. I'll overlay the graphs.

And yes it is a ton of work, I have now done two header installs in the last month and my hands have some fresh scar tissue lol.

- - - Updated - - -


Excellent post.....that also means mine will trap 136mph then. /smacktalk on/ :drive:


Hey Toddy, those are mine....stop taking pictures and get them to Jet Hot! :dancingman:

LOL watch it Honky

[IndyRon]

Well I'll have a back to back, same car, same dyno comparo or the original ARH headers against the M&M's. Should have my car on the dyno tomorrow for the new setup. I'll overlay the graphs.

And yes it is a ton of work, I have now done two header installs in the last month and my hands have some fresh scar tissue lol.

- - - Updated - - -



LOL watch it Honky

Man, thats low...Texas guy calling me Honky...hah! Andy, let us know when you get those new headers on the rollers. It should be good! As soon as Toddy gets mine finished, I'll get them installed and we can overlay the graphs. I really think we will learn a lot about these Gen IV motors.

[TrackAire]

Sneak Peak Set #1 Gentlemen!!

BBG GTS-R Modular Race Headers "Shorty" Snake Basket
3514

I run my ACR as God intended it to run!!
3515

BAD BOYZZ GARAGE
Toddy

=DISTRIBUTORS OF POWER=:t1567:

You mean God only intended your ACR to run under a full moon???

[Carbon GTS]

Any progress on these headers? Its been 10 months and a lot of discussion but no substance.

[IndyRon]

Check the perf mods section, substance was posted months ago. :)

[Jack B]

It has been over a year, you are correct, no substance to this point.




Any progress on these headers? Its been 10 months and a lot of discussion but no substance.

[IndyRon]

It has been over a year, you are correct, no substance to this point.

Burn!

[Carbon GTS]

Burn!

Did I miss something? Burn?
Maybe one of you guys can provide a link...bc I don't see any thread containing dyno numbers for the BBG headers aside from the engine dyo in the initial thread. Defiantly no comparison figures.

[mblgjr]

Ive been asking for a WHILE. I just want to see BBG shorties on a stock GenV engine; combined with a proper tune file.

We've seen what stock cars dyno; now we've had time to see what they average with just a tune file. And Belanger/tuned cars.

Still waiting on BBG shorties/tuned combo. ...

Has to be a guinea pig around :)

[IndyRon]

Did I miss something? Burn?
Maybe one of you guys can provide a link...bc I don't see any thread containing dyno numbers for the BBG headers aside from the engine dyo in the initial thread. Defiantly no comparison figures.

Here you go. Complete install thread including pictures and back to back dyno results. It's not a Gen 5 but results should be essentially the same given it is a Gen 4 with a Gen 5 intake.
http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/3291-BBG-Header-Install

My earlier comment was in response to Jack, not you. :)

[Carbon GTS]

Here you go. Complete install thread including pictures and back to back dyno results. It's not a Gen 5 but results should be essentially the same given it is a Gen 4 with a Gen 5 intake.
http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/3291-BBG-Header-Install

My earlier comment was in response to Jack, not you. :)

Thanks Ron, I have read your thread and great looking headers btw. Just haven't talked to anyone or seen any numbers for the gen 5 plus HP Tune. As its been said a million times already but Id want to see the side by side comparos with ARH and Belanger. I haven't seen much movement in the Gen V crowd with these and just wondering why... They are a grip though

[jasond29]

I think all the headers are going to be fairly close in HP/TQ numbers due to the 2 limiting factors, tune, camshaft. Most of the headers on the market are 1 3/4 for a reason, plenty of flow for the limiting factors cam/tune. Now that one of the factors has been solved (tune) we need to solve the other factor (cam). It looks like Toddy is on top of that as we speak. With a cam change you will see the other brand headers get left behind and the larger primary headers pull away.

[Jack B]

Ron

I don't remember seeing any numbers based on a Dyno of headers in a G5. Wern't all the posts based upon a G4?




Here you go. Complete install thread including pictures and back to back dyno results. It's not a Gen 5 but results should be essentially the same given it is a Gen 4 with a Gen 5 intake.
http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/3291-BBG-Header-Install

My earlier comment was in response to Jack, not you. :)

[IndyRon]

Ron

I don't remember seeing any numbers based on a Dyno of headers in a G5. Wern't all the posts based upon a G4?

U right.