[PICS]New M&M Big Primary Headers going on![PICS]

[FLATOUT]

Well I have been working with the guys at M&M for the last month or so on a protoype set of their new big 1 7/8 inch primary Tri Y headers and their new 3 1/2 in catback with removable cat pipes.

I know they have done one or two other sets and have been making adjustments on the design and jig as feedback has been provided. All I can say is they look at fit fantastic! I ran M&M's on my Gen III and talk to both Matt and Mitch quite a bit and they have always been wonderful to work with. Thanks Mitch for the texts on Sundays when I finally had a few moments to start the install.

I will update this thread as I finish up the install, but so far so great. Headers went in no problem and the install is very similar to the gen III write up I did here a while back. The catback looks absolutely rediculous and I can't wait to get it on and fired up.

I have the new headers hung and bolted up, working on the collectors and catback this week in the evenings after work. I'll update this thread with pictures of the exhaust and all of the pretty welds and V band clamps as I finish the install.

Andy

Primaries compared to a factory ARH/ACRX setup

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n133/ZOSICK/MampM1_zps5e26208c.jpg (http://s111.photobucket.com/user/ZOSICK/media/MampM1_zps5e26208c.jpg.html)

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n133/ZOSICK/MampM3_zps61d52e4e.jpg (http://s111.photobucket.com/user/ZOSICK/media/MampM3_zps61d52e4e.jpg.html)


The new headers on the car.

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n133/ZOSICK/MampM6_zps81a7ef16.jpg (http://s111.photobucket.com/user/ZOSICK/media/MampM6_zps81a7ef16.jpg.html)

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n133/ZOSICK/MampM4_zps78ad7505.jpg (http://s111.photobucket.com/user/ZOSICK/media/MampM4_zps78ad7505.jpg.html)

[MI Viper]

Look forward to your results..

[ACRucrazy]

pow pow power wheels!

[MI Viper]

FO,
PM Sent
Thanks,
MI V.

[J TNT]

Nice ! Keep us posted how your mid range power is :)

[FLATOUT]

Nice ! Keep us posted how your mid range power is :)

I'll do some graph overlays. I'm interested to see the results as well.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

What are the differences / advantages between this setup vs. the other available headers?

[FrgMstr]

What are the differences / advantages between this setup vs. the other available headers?

MOAR POWA! Hopefully. :) Guess we will see.

[FLATOUT]

What are the differences / advantages between this setup vs. the other available headers?

Larger primary's can and will make more power depending on the setup. I really expect the 3 1/2 inch catback to show an improvement over the previous setup.

[IndyRon]

I think you will gain more with the headers than the catback. I'm really curious to see what the curve looks like. As soon as I have my BBG headers in hand and get them on the car, I'll have some dyno numbers as well and we can overlay the graphs to see the difference in the Tri-Y vs. the 5 in 1 design along with primary length. We will have basically the same setup. UD pulley, Gen V intake, 1 7/8" headers, RSI smooth tubes, Mopar PCM. I'll be running the Corsa 3" catback with no cats. I'll wait on the 3:55 gears until I get the numbers as well even though these 3.08's are killing me.

[FLATOUT]

Did you get any pulls with anything other than your stock manifolds? I pulled off the RSI smooth tubes because the pair they sent me was too short. I can get them on for the dyno pull but they need to send me another set that is the proper length. Although I don't like making comparisons from two different cars on two different dyno's it will be interesting to see the results. I was fortunate enough to have two different header designs on the same car on the same dyno to get some pretty accurate testing done. Ron what did your car last dyno SAE?


I think you will gain more with the headers than the catback. I'm really curious to see what the curve looks like. As soon as I have my BBG headers in hand and get them on the car, I'll have some dyno numbers as well and we can overlay the graphs to see the difference in the Tri-Y vs. the 5 in 1 design along with primary length. We will have basically the same setup. UD pulley, Gen V intake, 1 7/8" headers, RSI smooth tubes, Mopar PCM. I'll be running the Corsa 3" catback with no cats. I'll wait on the 3:55 gears until I get the numbers as well even though these 3.08's are killing me.

[IndyRon]

I haven't dyno'd yet. All the parts are sitting in my shop. I plan to do it stepwise and as close to the same weather conditions/time of year as possible. Here in Indiana, weather isn't cooperative until April, which is the goal for both baseline and upgrades. I'll definitely post the SAE numbers stock and modified. I wont have my headers for at least a few more weeks. They are going to Jet Hot after Toddy gets done with fab.

[Revolution]

I'm looking at building something similar but just curious why you would merge your primary's together so close instead of keeping them longer? In for results.

[IndyRon]

I'm looking at building something similar but just curious why you would merge your primary's together so close instead of keeping them longer? In for results.

That aspect and the fact that it is a Tri-Y instead of 5-1 merge collector will make this comparison really interesting between the only 2 available 1 7/8" primary headers for these cars at the moment. BBG's primaries are about twice as long as the M&M. I'm really looking forward to dissecting the graphs.

[Revolution]

That aspect and the fact that it is a Tri-Y instead of 5-1 merge collector will make this comparison really interesting between the only 2 available 1 7/8" primary headers for these cars at the moment. BBG's primaries are about twice as long as the M&M. I'm really looking forward to dissecting the graphs.

Me too I'm hoping to try some other ideas out as well should be interesting :)

[FLATOUT]

Me too I'm hoping to try some other ideas out as well should be interesting :)

It's a fun time to be building vipers for sure!

[Voice of Reason]

Why are your valve covers off? For clearance issues dropping the headers in place? Just curious.

[FLATOUT]

Why are your valve covers off? For clearance issues dropping the headers in place? Just curious.

Yeah, you don't have to remove them to get them on but I do just so I don't have to worry about any clearance issues.

[Revolution]

Whens the dyno ETA?

[FLATOUT]

Whens the dyno ETA?

Still installing been very busy at work.

[Revolution]

Still installing been very busy at work.

I hear you any pics of the rest of the headers?

[FLATOUT]

Here's some updated pics from tonight's work. I love the V band clamps and the slip fit connections. Mitch killed it on these!

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n133/ZOSICK/image_zps62f956fd.jpg (http://s111.photobucket.com/user/ZOSICK/media/image_zps62f956fd.jpg.html)

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n133/ZOSICK/image_zps745c2c30.jpg (http://s111.photobucket.com/user/ZOSICK/media/image_zps745c2c30.jpg.html)

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n133/ZOSICK/image_zps8374a69a.jpg (http://s111.photobucket.com/user/ZOSICK/media/image_zps8374a69a.jpg.html)

[Victxv10]

Looks great Andy! And I agree, the idea of the slip fit and the v- band clamps is awesome.

[DreadLox]

Omg.... That's a sexy exhaust *__*:t15197: I love the black.
Especially since you said they have "removable cats".
FLATOUT, you are always up to something good, looking forward to the results my current setup is Corsa exhaust and American racing headers. So I'm excited to see what you get, please post a sound clip/video if possible :)

[Revolution]

Looking good lets see the rest of the headers :)

[FLATOUT]

Looking good lets see the rest of the headers :)

They're installed lol. They're M&M's they look just like all of the other sets they make just with the larger primaries. Let me see what I can dig up :)

Look exactly like these just a slightly larger primary, and a different heat coating.

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n133/ZOSICK/headersgen2a_zps0effcdd2.jpg (http://s111.photobucket.com/user/ZOSICK/media/headersgen2a_zps0effcdd2.jpg.html)

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n133/ZOSICK/headersgen3_zps46f973f8.jpg (http://s111.photobucket.com/user/ZOSICK/media/headersgen3_zps46f973f8.jpg.html)

Here's a quick shot of some of the collector and the turnout.

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n133/ZOSICK/turnout_zps77974de9.jpg (http://s111.photobucket.com/user/ZOSICK/media/turnout_zps77974de9.jpg.html)

[Revolution]

Thanks just wanted to see what they did for length! Can't wait to see some dyno numbers! And yes they do look just like there 1 3/4" version :)

[FLATOUT]

Looks great Andy! And I agree, the idea of the slip fit and the v- band clamps is awesome.


Omg.... That's a sexy exhaust *__*:t15197: I love the black.
Especially since you said they have "removable cats".
FLATOUT, you are always up to something good, looking forward to the results my current setup is Corsa exhaust and American racing headers. So I'm excited to see what you get, please post a sound clip/video if possible :)

Thanks guys it's always fun working with Matt and Mitch. There's a couple small things I'm sure they will tweak to make the install a touch easier, but since these are hand assembled cars everyone is slightly different.

The welds are top notch and the dynomax mufflers look great. I'll try and get some sound clips by the end of the weekend.

- - - Updated - - -


Thanks just wanted to see what they did for length! Can't wait to see some dyno numbers! And yes they do look just like there 1 3/4" version :)

No problem just gives me another opportunity to talk Viper :D

[Steve M]

Fired it up yet? Any issues with O2 sensor wire routing?

[Revolution]

Fired it up yet? Any issues with O2 sensor wire routing?

If there based off there 1 3/4 everything should be the same as far as that goes!

[Steve M]

If there based off there 1 3/4 everything should be the same as far as that goes!

I've not seen too many pics or read many accounts of M&M headers to be honest...seems like the most reasonably priced headers out there though, that's for sure.

[Revolution]

I've not seen too many pics or read many accounts of M&M headers to be honest...seems like the most reasonably priced headers out there though, that's for sure.

I have there 1 3/4" on my car no complaints

[FLATOUT]

Yep no extensions required on the M&Ms. I did add a nice retaining clip in the frame to secure the driver o2 out of the way instead of zip tying it.

Probably fire it up this weekend.

[FLATOUT]

Well got a bunch of work done tonight. My daughters first birthday party is tomorrow so I'll get it running at some point this weekend.

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n133/ZOSICK/image_zpsa6980e16.jpg (http://s111.photobucket.com/user/ZOSICK/media/image_zpsa6980e16.jpg.html)


http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n133/ZOSICK/image_zps4e28ed47.jpg (http://s111.photobucket.com/user/ZOSICK/media/image_zps4e28ed47.jpg.html)

[Steve M]

Like the closeout panel...did they only make the one, or do they have some in stock now?

[FrgMstr]

Closeout panel makes it look a lot nicer and is super functional in high temperature areas.

[FLATOUT]

Like the closeout panel...did they only make the one, or do they have some in stock now?

They might have a few more I asked them to get some made up a few days after Christmas and this one it's got done. They usually get 5 made at a time.


Closeout panel makes it look a lot nicer and is super functional in high temperature areas.

I agree I think if they didn't cost so much (hey vendors make one from plastic instead of carbon) we would all run them!

[ACRucrazy]

There has to be hella markup in those panels.

[Revolution]

They might have a few more I asked them to get some made up a few days after Christmas and this one it's got done. They usually get 5 made at a time.



I agree I think if they didn't cost so much (hey vendors make one from plastic instead of carbon) we would all run them!

Ill post mine when its done, its going to be all aluminum and powder coated, its going to be a block off/slash air box heat shield :)

[IndyRon]

Andy, lookin' good! I know someone posted before, but who makes those block off panels? Arrow?

[ACRucrazy]

Yes. Everyone should note the hood is going to rub on the panel, scratching the hood and the panel over time.

[FrgMstr]

I laid down black electrical tape where it makes contact...

[ACRucrazy]

Yea I was just looking for your pic to post it. Ive seen a few other pics of other panels where they are much worse. If I were to buy a new one I would place clear bra on the hood and possibly the panel.

EDIT:

http://kylebennett.com/files/hfpics/GenVManiInstall-0.jpg


http://driveviper.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2751&d=1390702704

[99RT10]

When you get it to the dyno, post up the results. :D

[FLATOUT]

Arrow sent some foam bumpers that stick the the under side of the hood that are supposed to keep it from scratching. I'll let you guys know how it works.

As for the headers and exhaust :D. I just fired it up for the first time with the side sills off and took it around the block to my private test strip :D. I have NEVER heard a Viper of any gen sound this good. The Dynomax mufflers on that 3 1/2 inch cat back sound incredible. Very deep sound compared to the ARH factory catback combo. Car feels much better down low in the Rpm band than I thought it would, I expected a slight loss of torque down low with the big catback it it certainly doesn't feel that way cars feels faster across the board I'll finish getting everything tweaked this week and get it on the dyno soon.

Andy

[ACRucrazy]

Arrow sent some foam bumpers that stick the the under side of the hood that are supposed to keep it from scratching. I'll let you guys know how it works.

2009/10 Vipers have those stock, got rid of the rubber ones on the fenders the 03-08 have. I wonder if they are the same.

3 on each side of hood

http://viperexchange.com/images/inventory/2009-dodge-viper-voix-048-0311/large_42.jpg



Can't wait to see video or dyno numbers for the new setup! :D

[Garron]

Yes. Everyone should note the hood is going to rub on the panel, scratching the hood and the panel over time.

Will a door edge guard fit on the area of contact?

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTRADeDhUBAwsdPKxq5dDAPwwgMbmh24 fr8JZimWOy8gsbsEwPQIw

[FLATOUT]

Yes but these bumpers affix to the front of the hood where it makes contact.

[TooBlue]

Andy, lookin' good! I know someone posted before, but who makes those block off panels? Arrow?

Steve at VIPAIR had them too...

[FrgMstr]

Arrow sent some foam bumpers that stick the the under side of the hood that are supposed to keep it from scratching. I'll let you guys know how it works.

Head to Home Depot of get you some adhesive weather stripping and block it off how you think is best. :)

[Victxv10]

The VIPAIR ones are the same price as Arrow last time I looked, $500. You would think knock off would half since there was no R&D involved.

[Torquemonster06]

Deff post up a sound clip. PLeeeeeeezzzze.

[FLATOUT]

Deff post up a sound clip. PLeeeeeeezzzze.

I'll get one soon need to make one more adjustment on the passenger side.

[FLATOUT]

Well I finally got the car on the dyno today. Same shop (Serious HP) that I have made every dyno run on my car since it was bone stock. Same SAE correction factor used and same dyno operator.

So I went from American Racing Headers, no cats and the factory 2 1/2 inch catback, to M&M Tri Y headers, no cats and an M&M 3 1/2 inch cat back. The results were very interesting to say the least!

My previous best was 602 RWHP and 583 ftlbs. Today I made 615 RWHP and 571 ftlbs. Uncorrected numbers were in the low 630's. When I first heard the numbers I thought to myself we should have tried a 3 inch catback to help with the torque as the 3 1/2 may have been a bit big for a Bolton car. But what surprised me the most is that I expected both graphs to be either lower or higher the entire pull, I didnt't expect for them to take over at 5200 rpm and stay there.

I plan on porting the heads on the car so I am going to wait and see what the 3 1/2 inch catback does when it's moving even more air.

To my knowledge this is one of the first independent tests of two of the major header brands back to back on the same car. You can see why there is so much debate over these setups :D they both offer something different. I'm happy I made the switch made more power and happy the torque stays a little flatter up top. The car has been more responsive and pulls harder to redline.



http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n133/ZOSICK/image_zpsacc76d6f.jpg (http://s111.photobucket.com/user/ZOSICK/media/image_zpsacc76d6f.jpg.html)

[ACRucrazy]

That is indeed an interesting graph. I am curious how it would dyno with the stock 2.5" on instead of the 3.5" for comparison (not that I expect you to do that, just thinking out loud)

Interesting that the ACR-X headers were making more HP and TQ up to about 5250 and then it flipped.

[FLATOUT]

That is indeed an interesting graph. I am curious how it would dyno with the stock 2.5" on instead of the 3.5" for comparison (not that I expect you to do that, just thinking out loud)

Interesting that the ACR-X headers were making more HP and TQ up to about 5250 and then it flipped.

I agree but if you think about it these are two fundamentally different header designs, so I guess we should expect the curves to react differently.

I do want to thank the M&M guys for having the balls to allow me to do this test I know they were as interested in the results as much as we were. I think I'll put the car on the dyno at Hennesseys at TX2K14 in two weeks. I'm going to put the smooth tubes back on see if I notice any difference.

[Revolution]

Didn't you also do a under drive pully? Thanks for posting results!

[FLATOUT]

Didn't you also do a under drive pully? Thanks for posting results!

I did so that's probably worth a couple. I would expect that to be linear across the board maybe 5rwhp or so.

[Back In Black]

I would like to have seen you run the no cat 3.5" catback system with the ACR-X headers before you swapped them out. My guess is you would have seen higher peak numbers and may have kept what you lost below 5300.

[BAD BOYZZ GARAGE]

Well I finally got the car on the dyno today. Same shop (Serious HP) that I have made every dyno run on my car since it was bone stock. Same SAE correction factor used and same dyno operator.

So I went from American Racing Headers, no cats and the factory 2 1/2 inch catback, to M&M Tri Y headers, no cats and an M&M 3 1/2 inch cat back. The results were very interesting to say the least!

My previous best was 602 RWHP and 583 ftlbs. Today I made 615 RWHP and 571 ftlbs. Uncorrected numbers were in the low 630's. When I first heard the numbers I thought to myself we should have tried a 3 inch catback to help with the torque as the 3 1/2 may have been a bit big for a Bolton car. But what surprised me the most is that I expected both graphs to be either lower or higher the entire pull, I didnt't expect for them to take over at 5200 rpm and stay there.

I plan on porting the heads on the car so I am going to wait and see what the 3 1/2 inch catback does when it's moving even more air.

To my knowledge this is one of the first independent tests of two of the major header brands back to back on the same car. You can see why there is so much debate over these setups :D they both offer something different. I'm happy I made the switch made more power and happy the torque stays a little flatter up top. The car has been more responsive and pulls harder to redline.



http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n133/ZOSICK/image_zpsacc76d6f.jpg (http://s111.photobucket.com/user/ZOSICK/media/image_zpsacc76d6f.jpg.html)

Very impressive Andy!!

BAD BOYZZ GARAGE
Toddy

[IndyRon]

Thanks for posting the results Andy. Very interesting. Just to be clear, you were running the OE crank pulley on the 602rwhp run and the UD pulley with the new headers on the 615rwhp run? If thats the case, I'll try to schedule a dyno run with only the UD pulley this spring to see what that is worth by itself.

We also may be approaching the limitations of the Mopar PCM as well. I'm sure as we go to these larger headers and add modifications that a custom tune would really be worth a fair amount of HP.

[Revolution]

Exactly Ron I'm thinking this plus heads and tuning will open up the high 600whp possibilities. :). Got to get these heads done :(

[FLATOUT]

Thanks for posting the results Andy. Very interesting. Just to be clear, you were running the OE crank pulley on the 602rwhp run and the UD pulley with the new headers on the 615rwhp run? If thats the case, I'll try to schedule a dyno run with only the UD pulley this spring to see what that is worth by itself.

We also may be approaching the limitations of the Mopar PCM as well. I'm sure as we go to these larger headers and add modifications that a custom tune would really be worth a fair amount of HP.

Yes Sir I'm as unshady as they come, same fuel (93 pump from Exxon). Differences between 602 and 615 were Stock under drive pulley on the first one, after market on the second, ARH headers on the first M&M on the second, factory catback on the first one M&M 3 1/2 inch on the second.

On the 602 run I had about 40lbs of pressure in the rear tires (usually good for a couple ;)) on the 615 runs I had 28lbs in the rears as I had it setup for roll racing the weekend before and didn't have time to fill them up before I dropped it off.

Andy


Exactly Ron I'm thinking this plus heads and tuning will open up the high 600whp possibilities. :). Got to get these heads done :(

I agree and with that power in good air I think we'll see NA Gen IV's and V's trapping 140mph in the quarter.

[slowhatch]

That is some serious power on the untouched heads/cam! Cars a beast.

[Hurley]

Very nice!!!!!!!! I need to do Headers soon!

[Revolution]

You have a graph with afr?

[Revolution]

Just talked to a local dyno guy I will hopefully have some numbers for the new headers and exhaust I'm working on soon!

[FLATOUT]

You have a graph with afr?

I don't we weren't monitoring it, just strapped it down and made a couple pulls.

[FrgMstr]

I don't we weren't monitoring it, just strapped it down and made a couple pulls.


Damn man, you beat me on peak HP, I see a small project in my future......right after I get the MCS suspension adjusted, then I will throw on the underdrive pulley and go make another few dyno pulls.

[TrackAire]

Yes Sir I'm as unshady as they come, same fuel (93 pump from Exxon). Differences between 602 and 615 were Stock under drive pulley on the first one, after market on the second, ARH headers on the first M&M on the second, factory catback on the first one M&M 3 1/2 inch on the second.

On the 602 run I had about 40lbs of pressure in the rear tires (usually good for a couple ;)) on the 615 runs I had 28lbs in the rears as I had it setup for roll racing the weekend before and didn't have time to fill them up before I dropped it off.

Andy



I agree and with that power in good air I think we'll see NA Gen IV's and V's trapping 140mph in the quarter.

Good report Andy. What is the most reliable formula for figuring out horsepower using the trap speed and weight of the vehicle? I've seen a couple but not sure if there is a preferred method. And do those formulas give us crank hp or rwhp?

How much hp is going to be required to trap 140 mph?....that is hauling beans!

Cheers,
George

[FLATOUT]

Well there are a lot of factors that will go into a car both producing enough power for it's curb weight to hit 140 mph in the 1/4. I would think a 700rwhp NA Viper with no aero could do it. Heck in the right air a car that usually makes 670rwhp or so might get up there that day. Most Vipers that I know that are trapping in the 140's are around 800rwhp (usually a forged motor blower or turbo car).

That being said I don't think anyone has completely optimized an NA gen IV for drag racing. I mean 2010 trans ratios, 3.55's or 3.73's, the right curb weight, with an emphasis on rotating mass including running skinnies up front. When's the last time you saw a gen IV on a drag pack? Honestly the more I think about it in great air on a Hoosier and a drag pack I think a Gen IV coupe could run 140mph with 650rwhp but it would be tight.

I would think a comfortable drivable Viper (no crazy gearing or extensive weight reduction) trapping between 135-140mph and making 650rwhp would be a great car to own :)



Good report Andy. What is the most reliable formula for figuring out horsepower using the trap speed and weight of the vehicle? I've seen a couple but not sure if there is a preferred method. And do those formulas give us crank hp or rwhp?

How much hp is going to be required to trap 140 mph?....that is hauling beans!

Cheers,
George

[Revolution]

Curious what gears you guys are running and has anyone dyno'd before and after a gear swap?

[ACRucrazy]

Stock gears. Lose RWHP with gears according to other posts.

[IndyRon]

Stock gears. Lose RWHP with gears according to other posts.

On paper (or computer screen) gears typically cost power on the dyno, but in fact may make you faster down the 1/4 mile. If the car can leave harder you gain in the 60' time and if you can finish higher up the powerband and torque curve at the top of 4th gear rather than lower in the gear, the car is going to accelerate harder and run a better time and trap speed, all else equal. So, while the numbers may read slightly less, the car will in fact be quicker and/or faster.

[Revolution]

Just wondering how much you would lose back to back from 3.07's to 3.55's

[FLATOUT]

Just wondering how much you would lose back to back from 3.07's to 3.55's

You'd lose between 10-15rwhp, but you will be quicker.

[Revolution]

Thanks! The car is definitely quicker that's for sure :)

[FLATOUT]

Thanks! The car is definitely quicker that's for sure :)

3.55's need to go on mine as well.

[Revolution]

3.55's need to go on mine as well.

Makes street driving challenging in 1st buy really makes the gears a lot more usable :)

[FLATOUT]

Makes street driving challenging in 1st buy really makes the gears a lot more usable :)

I'll run an 18 inch wheel out back with a real tire for rolls, or 1/4 runs.

[MtnBiker]

You will lose top end power with the 3:55s. Also make the car even scarier at bottom end. Just my HO.

[Revolution]

You will lose top end power with the 3:55s. Also make the car even scarier at bottom end. Just my HO.

Car won't pull 6th gear with 3.07's the only thing sketchy is low 1st gear with a mod'd Gen 4

[FLATOUT]

You will lose top end power with the 3:55s. Also make the car even scarier at bottom end. Just my HO.

The car will be faster, if you haven't spent much time roll racing or at the drag strip it might not seem like its worth doing. And by top end power you'll lose 10rwhp. This thing doesn't scare me lol in fact I wish it made another 300rwhp minimum lol.

[FLATOUT]

Car won't pull 6th gear with 3.07's the only thing sketchy is low 1st gear with a mod'd Gen 4

As you know, until you put a real tire on it ;)

[Revolution]

Yeah might have to break down and get a set of 18's :)

[noisy]

Was that a Gen 5 manifold? Did it help increasing HP? Bolt on fitment?

Car looks stunning!

[FLATOUT]

Yeah might have to break down and get a set of 18's :)

Already have the ebrake relocate cables and a set of 18's I need to go pick up.


Was that a Gen 5 manifold? Did it help increasing HP? Bolt on fitment?

Car looks stunning!

Yes Sir, search my screen name and you'll find a very lengthy thread on the Gen V manifold. Congrats on teh new car and if you have any questions shoot me a PM.

[Shooter]

The car will be faster, if you haven't spent much time roll racing or at the drag strip it might not seem like its worth doing. And by top end power you'll lose 10rwhp. This thing doesn't scare me lol in fact I wish it made another 300rwhp minimum lol.

Maybe if 1/4 mile or street racing is all a guy does. I prefer the stock 3.07 for road courses. Less shifting required. Just as an example, my Aero Coupe hit redline in 4th at the end of the front straight (164 mph). That's one less shift required after coming out of the chicane onto the straight...you stay foot to the floor until braking for the next turn. The only track that really needed an improved gearing setup was the Ring. And once they changed 5th to the 2010 spec, I thought the stock gearing was great. Someone mentioned 3.73 also, but its more an auto x set up imo.

[IndyRon]

I've been around cars quite a while and cut my teeth LTx and LSx platforms. Those cars would regularly get 4.10 or greater rear gears with cams and headwork to maximize the powerband of the modified motors. Heck even stockers benefitted from gears. I understand not wanting to shift 1 more time, but the car is just neutered with 3.08's especially with a soft bottom end in the Gen 4. I like to keep my RPM's around 2-3k when cruising stoplight to stoplight because the car is more torquey and fun. Most city streets, you are exceeding the speedlimits in 2nd gear at 3k rpm. That's stupid. The car feels undergeared when 95% of my driving is happening (on the street). I'll definitely be putting 3.55's in mine.

[Shooter]

I've been around cars quite a while and cut my teeth LTx and LSx platforms. Those cars would regularly get 4.10 or greater rear gears with cams and headwork to maximize the powerband of the modified motors. Heck even stockers benefitted from gears. I understand not wanting to shift 1 more time, but the car is just neutered with 3.08's especially with a soft bottom end in the Gen 4. I like to keep my RPM's around 2-3k when cruising stoplight to stoplight because the car is more torquey and fun. Most city streets, you are exceeding the speedlimits in 2nd gear at 3k rpm. That's stupid. The car feels undergeared when 95% of my driving is happening (on the street). I'll definitely be putting 3.55's in mine.

I think the 3:55's are great for people that just like to cruise or maybe track the small track's. Keeps the car in a better rpm for the street. That's why I said I preferred the stock 3.07 gearing for road racing. My car should be making close to 600 rwhp and the stock gearing is better for my use. I will get 5th and 6th changed though.

[viper04]

One of the best mods 3:55. Car just feel a lot better day to day driving.

[FLATOUT]

I think the 3:55's are great for people that just like to cruise or maybe track the small track's. Keeps the car in a better rpm for the street. That's why I said I preferred the stock 3.07 gearing for road racing. My car should be making close to 600 rwhp and the stock gearing is better for my use. I will get 5th and 6th changed though.

It will improve the car in mid size tracks as well. Look at how well the TA performed at Laguna with minimal downforce on a mediocre tire. I agree though the big speed tracks, and nurburgring are probably better served with the stock rear gearing.

[Revolution]

It will improve the car in mid size tracks as well. Look at how well the TA performed at Laguna with minimal downforce on a mediocre tire. I agree though the big speed tracks, and nurburgring are probably better served with the stock rear gearing.

Not sure what the top speed in 5th would be with 3.55's but I don't think you would pull that mph at many tracks but the car pulls a lot harder in the tall gears with the 3.55's!

[FLATOUT]

Not sure what the top speed in 5th would be with 3.55's but I don't think you would pull that mph at many tracks but the car pulls a lot harder in the tall gears with the 3.55's!

If you have the 2010 trans ratio it doesn't matter it will keep pulling. If you have the 08-09 trans ratio it's good to stay out of 5th as it falls on it's face a bit. TWS as Shooter mentioned you would have to shift into 5th on the straight if you had 3.55's. Nurburgring the car is way up there quite a bit of the time as well. The majority of the situations thought, drag racing, mid and small sized tracks, roll racing, & autocross the car would benefit from the 3.55. Other concern would be in the mile.

[TrackAire]

If you have the 2010 trans ratio it doesn't matter it will keep pulling. If you have the 08-09 trans ratio it's good to stay out of 5th as it falls on it's face a bit. TWS as Shooter mentioned you would have to shift into 5th on the straight if you had 3.55's. Nurburgring the car is way up there quite a bit of the time as well. The majority of the situations thought, drag racing, mid and small sized tracks, roll racing, & autocross the car would benefit from the 3.55. Other concern would be in the mile.

Here is my experience for both Shooter and what Flatout is stating. The Gen 4 motor just does not have the lower rpm torque curve like the Gen 3 motor does. It needs to be up there in revs to pull crazy hard. Shifting less on the track should technically make you faster, but if you have to pass traffic on a road course, that is where the additional gear options to keep the motor in the 5000 plus rpm range makes the Gen 4 nearly unbeatable assuming your rear tires can hook up. Passing a Miati or BMW is not the issue, but trying to pass something with 450 plus horsepower (like a Porsche, Boss 302, Corvette, etc) on a road course makes the 3.07's a liability IMO. But, 3.55's is not the only answer either, you need to have the lower 5 gear ratio because you will be using it. The key is now 4th gear is even faster accelerating (because of the 3.55's) and if you need the high end speed (TWS for example), then shifting into the lowered 5 gear still makes the car pull crazy hard.

I did what I think is the ultimate set up for a Gen 4......3.55 gears and the lowered 5th and 6th gear trans ratios. Lap times don't win races, finishing in front of everybody else does. You can't beat them if you can't get around them, lol.

Cheers,
George

[FLATOUT]

George I think this is the perfect setup as well.

"I did what I think is the ultimate set up for a Gen 4......3.55 gears and the lowered 5th and 6th gear trans ratios."

[Revolution]

Might have to look into the 5th - 6th too :)

[Shooter]

Here is my experience for both Shooter and what Flatout is stating. The Gen 4 motor just does not have the lower rpm torque curve like the Gen 3 motor does. It needs to be up there in revs to pull crazy hard. Shifting less on the track should technically make you faster, but if you have to pass traffic on a road course, that is where the additional gear options to keep the motor in the 5000 plus rpm range makes the Gen 4 nearly unbeatable assuming your rear tires can hook up. Passing a Miati or BMW is not the issue, but trying to pass something with 450 plus horsepower (like a Porsche, Boss 302, Corvette, etc) on a road course makes the 3.07's a liability IMO. But, 3.55's is not the only answer either, you need to have the lower 5 gear ratio because you will be using it. The key is now 4th gear is even faster accelerating (because of the 3.55's) and if you need the high end speed (TWS for example), then shifting into the lowered 5 gear still makes the car pull crazy hard.

I did what I think is the ultimate set up for a Gen 4......3.55 gears and the lowered 5th and 6th gear trans ratios. Lap times don't win races, finishing in front of everybody else does. You can't beat them if you can't get around them, lol.

Cheers,
George

Good post George. Not 100% in agreement but that's why we are car guy's. :) I have actually put some thought towards 3:23's, but I think JonB might have told me they don't make them anymore. With the 5th and 6th gear mod, I think that would be a winning combination.

[Revolution]

Everyone's driving and Hp is different and I think the higher HP guys obviously can get away with longer gearing, and stock guys would get the most out of a shorter setup.