ACR TA at BJ Auction

[ACRSNK]

Looks like there is an ACR/TA running across the block at BJ. Bill...any idea who is giving up their ACR/TA so quickly? Will be interesting to see what the car brings.

[Policy Limits]

More interested in the new FGT &#1 ZR1. But will look for this one too. I always thought it had an identity crisis to be honest. However, it will still command 6 figs. I predict the FGT for charity goes for 7 figs.

[serpent]

Any pics OP or a link?

[cubeman]

There's this T/A ACR on Jan 20th

https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/2017-DODGE-VIPER-ACR-TA-214612

There's another ACR going up the same day

https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/2016-DODGE-VIPER-ACR-214498

[13COBRA]

I bet the FGT brings $1.5mil.

[Special Ed]

More interested in the new FGT
ZR1. But will look for this one too. I always thought it had an identity crisis to be honest. However, it will still command 6 figs. I predict the FGT for charity goes for 7 figs.

I will predict that regardless of the price that Rick Hendrick will go home with the ZR1.

[Policy Limits]

There's this T/A ACR on Jan 20th

https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/2017-DODGE-VIPER-ACR-TA-214612

There's another ACR going up the same day

https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/2016-DODGE-VIPER-ACR-214498

Wow no reserve on both.

[Voice of Reason]

That’s Steve Todhunter’s car.

[Scott_in_fl]

^^^ Someone we should know??

[Voice of Reason]

^^^ Someone we should know??

Nope! But the OP asked who’s car it was, and through brilliant deductive reasoning (and reading the description of the auction on BJ’s site) I can say without a doubt that it’s Steve’s car. His collection will never be the same. :)

[BrianACR]

Nope! But the OP asked who’s car it was, and through brilliant deductive reasoning (and reading the description of the auction on BJ’s site) I can say without a doubt that it’s Steve’s car. His collection will never be the same. :)

Lol that is some brilliant mind you have there!! :smilielol:
It'll be interesting to see what the FGT, ZR1 and Viper all go for.

[Scott_in_fl]

FGT and ZR1 will be silly, and in no way indicative of the real market. I guess it is for now, since the cars are not available to the public. But once the FGT restriction period is up, the cars will be for sale and we'll see the real prices. I think the cars will hold value, but it won't be anything close to what we see from this BJ sale. I could see $1m but that's a risky investment if its not a special car, VIN 0001, or something like that. Because the buyer has to be concerned that other identical cars will be coming to market soon for likely quite a bit less.

The ZR1 will go to Hendrick for stupid money, just like the first 1LE Camaro did recently, and every other GM first sports car. They must have a backroom deal together that passes the car around from GM through BJ to Hendrick, from Hendrick to some charity that raffles it off, which then sponsors a charity that he supports, etc. I can't imagine that he is stockpiling all of this inventory of non-collector cars.

The two Vipers will be interesting to watch because those cars are available and this is a good forum that attracts well-heeled buyers (at least better than eBay). One is special, one is not (sort of -- you know what I mean; I actually think they are all special). So this will at least show the delta between an "SE" vs. a "non-SE" car.

Edit: I just looked at the listing for both cars and there is a significant value difference. One is basically a new 2017 final year SE-car with 100 miles, and the other is a 2016 non-SE with 4,300 miles. I won't debate whether the ACR/TA is SE or not. My guess is that the 2017 goes for $175k, and the 2016 goes for $145k.

[Arizona Vipers]

The buyer has to pay 17.3% fee on the car (9% to Barrett Jackson, another 8.3% city sales tax to Scottsdale). I'll bid on both up to a reasonable amount, but these cars are going to go for market value or more, PLUS the 17%.
They are both going on Saturday afternoon/night when the camera's are rolling live, that's when cars usually go for more than they are worth.

[Arizona Vipers]

FGT and ZR1 will be silly, and in no way indicative of the real market. I guess it is for now, since the cars are not available to the public. But once the FGT restriction period is up, the cars will be for sale and we'll see the real prices. I think the cars will hold value, but it won't be anything close to what we see from this BJ sale. I could see $1m but that's a risky investment if its not a special car, VIN 0001, or something like that. Because the buyer has to be concerned that other identical cars will be coming to market soon for likely quite a bit less.

The ZR1 will go to Hendrick for stupid money, just like the first 1LE Camaro did recently, and every other GM first sports car. They must have a backroom deal together that passes the car around from GM through BJ to Hendrick, from Hendrick to some charity that raffles it off, which then sponsors a charity that he supports, etc. I can't imagine that he is stockpiling all of this inventory of non-collector cars.

The two Vipers will be interesting to watch because those cars are available and this is a good forum that attracts well-heeled buyers (at least better than eBay). One is special, one is not (sort of -- you know what I mean; I actually think they are all special). So this will at least show the delta between an "SE" vs. a "non-SE" car.

Edit: I just looked at the listing for both cars and there is a significant value difference. One is basically a new 2017 final year SE-car with 100 miles, and the other is a 2016 non-SE with 4,300 miles. I won't debate whether the ACR/TA is SE or not. My guess is that the 2017 goes for $175k, and the 2016 goes for $145k.

Both cars are for charity, so are deductible for the buyer, plus the buyer gets to be on live TV showing off his money and how much of a philanthropist he is to the world. These types of charity cars at BJ in scottsdale bring HUGE money.

[dewilmoth]

Both cars are for charity, so are deductible for the buyer, plus the buyer gets to be on live TV showing off his money and how much of a philanthropist he is to the world. These types of charity cars at BJ in scottsdale bring HUGE money.

I believe only the difference between market value and price paid, if over market value, is deductible. Probably not much of a write off.

[Policy Limits]

Yes last charity car I saw auctioned was a ten year old super snake that went for 7 figs lol. How many new FGT cars were made? I spoke with someone over the weekend who got one. He paid around 1/2 mill. It's gonna hold value well. Gen V ACR E cars are gonna hold well too, like it or not. :)

[ViperJon]

Edit: I just looked at the listing for both cars and there is a significant value difference. One is basically a new 2017 final year SE-car with 100 miles, and the other is a 2016 non-SE with 4,300 miles. I won't debate whether the ACR/TA is SE or not. My guess is that the 2017 goes for $175k, and the 2016 goes for $145k.

I’ll be very surprised if the Woodhouse car reaches that kind of money. It was relatively cheap(er) compared to a full blown ACR-E and doesn’t have the ACR interior or CCB’s. On the plus side it has no mileage and is a one of ten if that means anything being a car made for a specific dealers specs. Vipers never do well at auctions. I’ll guess 150K.

[Policy Limits]

I just want this one. No Reserve!

[cashcorn]

Hey Arizona Vipers, B.J.'s website lists: On-site Buyer's Premium: 10%, Absentee Buyer's Premium: 12%. Where do they disclose the 8.3% city sales tax to Scottsdale? Never heard of this before, is this for Arizona residents?

[ClayR]

Hey Arizona Vipers, B.J.'s website lists: On-site Buyer's Premium: 10%, Absentee Buyer's Premium: 12%. Where do they disclose the 8.3% city sales tax to Scottsdale? Never heard of this before, is this for Arizona residents?

They cannot charge sales tax to vehicles that are sold out of State.

[Policy Limits]

The "BJ" in the thread title is really false advertising. You click on this thread only to experience an epic let down. Damn u OP....haha

[IHOP]

Hey Arizona Vipers, B.J.'s website lists: On-site Buyer's Premium: 10%, Absentee Buyer's Premium: 12%. Where do they disclose the 8.3% city sales tax to Scottsdale? Never heard of this before, is this for Arizona residents?

Yes he means if he buys it because he lives here in Az.

[Ludington1]

Interested to see what it goes for, the ACR/TA is one I would love to have!

Darren

[ViperGeorge]

Personally I hope the ACR/TA goes for a bazillion dollars or maybe more. :) But I have to say even for a bazillion dollars it would be hard to part with mine.

[Terminator02]

Yes last charity car I saw auctioned was a ten year old super snake that went for 7 figs lol. How many new FGT cars were made? I spoke with someone over the weekend who got one. He paid around 1/2 mill. It's gonna hold value well. Gen V ACR E cars are gonna hold well too, like it or not. :)

Not following you. You likely spoke to someone on "the list" that paid MSRP which is about 500k. The demand is around 1.2-1.5MM currently. No different than the 918 going for the near 900k MSRP to those who got one and then the 1.5MM+ they fetch now.

The FGT is new so demand is high, the last run had an incredible investment not many expected and a lot of people are all on about having one. They are not going to MSRP.

People will always want a Viper. We see it all the time with the mopar crowd as it is indeed a grail car. There are enough people who all recite the same "NA V10 stick, tires, handbuilt, low numbers" defense; including myself and the buyers of our cars will know this too. But all these outrageous speculation threads daily make an assumption that the average buyer unaware of 150k+ sports cars even cares or knows or wants to know these facts. Right now, they do not. Production is fresh over, cars are not skyrocketing. One day they will but dont watch the pot boil my friend! This is not a FGT or 918.

[cubeman]

Considering as of yesterday when I looked there are only two Gen V's under 80k with 21k and 33k miles and I picked mine up for 78k with 12.5k miles I think the market is on the up.

[Policy Limits]

Ya think? Every 17 Extreme is listed over sticker on cars .com

[Scott_in_fl]

Not following you. You likely spoke to someone on "the list" that paid MSRP which is about 500k. The demand is around 1.2-1.5MM currently. No different than the 918 going for the near 900k MSRP to those who got one and then the 1.5MM+ they fetch now.

The FGT is new so demand is high, the last run had an incredible investment not many expected and a lot of people are all on about having one. They are not going to MSRP.

People will always want a Viper. We see it all the time with the mopar crowd as it is indeed a grail car. There are enough people who all recite the same "NA V10 stick, tires, handbuilt, low numbers" defense; including myself and the buyers of our cars will know this too. But all these outrageous speculation threads daily make an assumption that the average buyer unaware of 150k+ sports cars even cares or knows or wants to know these facts. Right now, they do not. Production is fresh over, cars are not skyrocketing. One day they will but dont watch the pot boil my friend! This is not a FGT or 918.

Agree that there is no sense in watching the pot boil. It will be a slow run up, but it will appreciate very nicely overall. FGT is not a 918, just like Viper is not an FGT. There are arguments for why each has similar factors to the other with respect to probabilities for increased valuations, but there are also many differences.

The GT cars produced by Porsche are truly bleeding edge tech. At the time, the 918 hybrid was a marvel, with tech we had never seen in a street car. To a large extent, it still is (only P1 and LaF are comparable, for the same reasons with proprietary tech from their respective companies). The car is a classic example of Porsche at their best, engineers with an unlimited development budget, tech straight from their LMP program, etc. Handcrafted, built in small numbers beginning in 2013, still nearly unmatched performance (only the new 720S may be close), from a MFG with a huge following == instant demand that must outstrip supply by 10,000 to 1.

The new FGT is a really pretty car, but it has "me too" tech, with seemingly middle of the road performance today, let alone 5 model years down the road. Everyone wants one now only because it is the current object of desire. I've seen them up close and they are cool just like the Aventador was when I saw one for the first time (and just like the Centenario will be when I see one for the first time, and so on, and so on). My point is that outrageously beautiful cars are desirable because they are the next new thing, and not necessary because they are game changers like the 918 was. And I do not believe that "fashion cars" (like fashion watches) can withstand the fact that newer, more outrageous designs will continue to be released (Aventadors actually depreciate now and will continue to do so). Current pricing is very high because there are many people who want to be the first kid on the block with the new toy but cannot be. What happens when it is no longer the new toy? Other than the fact it is pretty, what other redeeming qualities are there to push prices substantially higher than MSRP (and don't you dare mention the BS racing pedigree)? And thank God it is pretty. Otherwise, it would be suffering the same fate that the current Acura NSX is.

The Viper ACR-E is unusual because it took the current paradigm and kicked it onto its ear. It is low tech in just about every regard (compared to say a 720S), but it is engineered in such a way that no other street legal car can really defeat it (there may be one or two cars now, but that is still to be seen -- and let's not get into 'Ring this or that, tires this or that -- all will be revealed shortly when the cars are in customer hands here in the US). Yes, it took making a clown car, with its obnoxious wings, dive planes, splitters, diffusers, scoops, etc., but the approach worked and nobody else has really dared to copy it (newer cars are using similar aero "adders" but are seemingly concerned about looks and have not gone "full Monty" like the ACR-E did). That is amazing and there is nothing else like an ACR-E on the street (and likely never will be because with new regs it's too late to build it). And, lucky for us, the giant wing and clown car look has actually been adopted very favorably not only by enthusiasts, but by the general public as well (I was worried when I ordered mine, had a non-ACR on order and changed at the last minute when friends said "go big or go home" with a final year car, but public reaction has been off the charts -- I think FCA was very, very lucky here). Need a test -- go drive by a group of young boys, the most innocent opinions available, and see what they think. Thus, I see the Gen V ACR-E as groundbreaking in its own way. Whether future car collectors view it similarly is yet to be seen, but you know where my money is. And I do think its pricing will parallel the old FGT and likely beat it (as that car had very similar aspects about it but produced in much higher quantities). Thus, it probably doubles its value well within 10 years. Not a home run, and not going to make you a millionaire, but certainly a nice ride to keep in the garage.

Okay enough Viper talk. I need to concentrate on my Ripple investment and see if I want to add a bit more here on the pullback to $2 ;)

[Terminator02]

Agree Scott. Good point on FGT and maybe inflated demand due to hype. I do think the FGT has a very very tight knit community working hard on the Brand and when coupled with the history of the fgt it will still be a true investment as opposed to say the Aventador.

In Michigan, Summer is all Woodward dream cruising and gas station convos for hours will crowds and agree with you on the more unbiased opinions of the crowds. Only disconnect is that crowd is not the crowd that makes or breaks values.

For this specific thread I agree with Viper Jon. On paper, I would think the ACRE should fetch more money. If the "TA/ACR" sells for more I think it indicates that more ears and eyes are paying attention to the smaller details than expected; even just knowing what a dealer edition is.

Most importantly, I think the ACR-E really made the viper end more gracefully and benefits ALL owners. For not that car, the hype never would have come, the ring attempt would not have been a discussion and sales would have been anemic. Viper production ended with demand and even some general public awareness which is rare. I would never go for the ACRE personally based on what I do and like, but I am damn happy that came out. It may have prevented another round of panic selling.

BJ auctions are interesting in that they are unpredicktable at times with what actually goes for what price. Sometimes it brings an unexpectedly high climax while other times a beautiful pristine one brings a toothy finish line result...

Edit: ripple is promising but Wax tokens for the 50BB gaming industry is a game changer. Look up OPskins, its crypto community respect and the discussion. I bet big on it.

[Granger73]

One issue with the new FGT is that the majority of potential buyers will all end up with one through Ford. Won't be many bidders left.

[LABrit]

Ill be in town for the auctions, be interesting to see. My bet is everything is down again.

[commandomatt]

One issue with the new FGT is that the majority of potential buyers will all end up with one through Ford. Won't be many bidders left.

Huh ?? I thought that the waiting/wanting list was far longer than cars available.

I think that those that downplay the FGT are in for a surprise.

While our own self proclaimed expert on values (S in FL) don't have much good to say about it (based on nothing as usual), the FGT is by far the most amazing US manufactured car right now an it will be a very long time, if ever, that another US manufacturer gets even close.

[ddominator1]

wow wow! just caught on here. very interested to see TA/ACR bid.. Personally in my opinion, and not being biased, CCB brakes and ACRE interior wont affect bid much. apples and oranges man.. at the end of the day you have a kick ass , rare vehicle. In the case of this one only 10 dealer ED made.(may hear more of that if anything) Would love to see 175+ on this car!

[13COBRA]

One issue with the new FGT is that the majority of potential buyers will all end up with one through Ford. Won't be many bidders left.

You think there's only 750 people who want them? There were over 8,000 applications...

[Terminator02]

The traits you dismiss are part of the reason the ACRE accomplished what it did. I do see a counter argument that those DNA traits are more effective than a dealer specific car. I am not diminishing the Woodhouse car; the thought they put into it and prefix and fca allowing a 1 of 10 only is cool and shows how awesome prefix worked with the dealer. It is possible that most buyers will not understand the difference between SRT (EVERY MODEL 13/14) and Viper branding incongruencies. Couple the SRT/GTS/GT/GTC/ACR/TA/ACRE models with the online and print media announced and quickly sold out SE cars and then the few DE cars....you get the point. I agree it is interesting and may have the right buyer go hard on a DE but that could be tough...at this point. DE to me is not much different than a GTC well thought out. It is a great Nod to Woodhouse they exist but it is not an FCA official SE which is a significant difference. Price now will be more desire based

[Policy Limits]

The DE is the FGT Heritage Edition of Dodge Viper. Sips tea, walks away....

[Terminator02]

The DE is the FGT Heritage Edition of Dodge Viper. Sips tea, walks away....

Sip that tea. The heritage is A FORD GT. Tied deeply to the racing history. I am sitting in a room right now NEXT to a beautiful Heritage NFGT and a few old. The TA/ACR is a nod to Woodhouse AND a nod from Woodhouse to their customers. That is the car. The TA/ACR is not an ACRE and it is yet to be determined if people will want that car or an ACRE atm.

Ford is on a different operating field. Are we discussing 60s racing heritage with the viper? We cannot. I could only wish our community was more tightly knit like theirs. I am around them and as nice of a community the viper is, and as much passion we possess...they operate much differently and it is without mic dropping, sipping tea or conflating issues distorting each reaponse. Enjoy your 1 of 11 Heritage NFGTs m8.

[Policy Limits]

Ohhhhh someone needs some tea!!!!!

[serpent]

You think there's only 750 people who want them? There were over 8,000 applications...
How many NFGT's are being made, surely there will be way more demand as long as they keep the production numbers under 1k.

Also, not sure how an ACR-E will affect that TA/ACR, only 10 of those are built only in orange. Whats stopping the TA/ACR owner from adding extreme carbon brakes?

[Scott_in_fl]

Huh ?? I thought that the waiting/wanting list was far longer than cars available.

I think that those that downplay the FGT are in for a surprise.

While our own self proclaimed expert on values (S in FL) don't have much good to say about it (based on nothing as usual), the FGT is by far the most amazing US manufactured car right now an it will be a very long time, if ever, that another US manufacturer gets even close.

I like the new FGT a lot. I agree that from a technological perspective, it is the best that America has done to this point as it legitimately competes with the current breed of similar cars from around the world -- the 720S, GT2RS, Performante, and NSX. My main gripe is that, unfortunately, it is too similar to those cars. If I want a dual-clutch, high revving, small displacement FI engine, in a techno-force car, I have lots of choices. And they are all superb.

Frankly, if I were looking for another sports car right now (and in addition to the ACR-E), as much as I would like a 720S (because I think it is the performance king), I'd probably scoop up an NSX for $120k because I see all of those cars as very similar to one another in the driving enjoyment that they would deliver. They all have similar dimensions, similar tech, similar build quality, and similar performance, so why pay $500k? And guess what?? Even more amazing options are in the pipeline and coming soon. I actually can't wait until I'm back in the market in 2-3yrs for such a car because the options will abound and used prices will be awesome. This is my complaint.

I would have liked to see Ford go in a different direction, like they did in '05-'06, and like every other American MFG historically does (i.e. different from what the Japanese and Euro MFG's do). They could have done the Venom GT before Hennessey did (or in collaboration, like they did with Shelby). Yes, I realize that Hennessey has his own issues, but the idea behind the car is what every American boy dreams of -- a 427 big block motor, with 1,200hp, weighing 2,700lbs., and goes 260mph. I mean c'mon, it's obviously possible because it exists. And Ford certainly has the resources to pull it off, and sell it for $500k. That is what we are used to because it has historically been the American way (build big performance and undercut the price of all competitors). The new FGT almost costs 2x the price of a 720S. Why?

If you want something special, something that celebrates the American way of building fast cars, then you cannot simply copy the recipe that Nissan started in '07 and every Euro MFG has since adopted (and is now on their 3rd and 4th iterations).

So, yes, the new FGT is pretty. It is even technologically great, I'm sure. But it misses the mark for something I was hoping for, and I do not think it is a worthy representation of what American sports cars can be. Now the ACR-E on the other hand..... ;)

[13COBRA]

How many NFGT's are being made, surely there will be way more demand as long as they keep the production numbers under 1k.

Also, not sure how an ACR-E will affect that TA/ACR, only 10 of those are built only in orange. Whats stopping the TA/ACR owner from adding extreme carbon brakes?

750.


I would have liked to see Ford go in a different direction, like they did in '05-'06, and like every other American MFG historically does (i.e. different from what the Japanese and Euro MFG's do). They could have done the Venom GT before Hennessey did (or in collaboration, like they did with Shelby). Yes, I realize that Hennessey has his own issues, but the idea behind the car is what every American boy dreams of -- a 427 big block motor, with 1,200hp, weighing 2,700lbs., and goes 260mph. I mean c'mon, it's obviously possible because it exists. And Ford certainly has the resources to pull it off, and sell it for $500k.

I don't believe that Hennessey has to abide by any emissions or impact regulations like normal manufacturers.

[Scott_in_fl]

^^^ Perhaps true, but that is just packaging. It's not that they cannot build a 427 TT and find a way to get it into an FGT platform. I feel like DeTomaso was doing this long ago with the Pantera (in the '70s).

Ford clearly has the packaging ready to go since the front of the new FGT (i.e. passenger cabin forward) must be compliant with all of the impact regulations. They just should have incorporated a real power plant, and made room for it by ditching half of the tech and sticking with the manual. That would have been a beast of a car... in the traditional American way.

And let us also keep in mind that all of the other current supercars have similar packaging requirements, but seem to fit good size motors into their engine bays. Performante has 10 cylinders, 720s has eight. The cars may not weigh 2700 pounds, but they're pretty darn close. So it can be done. I just think the American way to do it would have been a big 427 TT with insane horsepower and torque and manual shift. And it should be selling for something around $200,000 to $220,000.

I guess all we have left from Ford for American muscle will be the forthcoming Ford GT500 (rumored to still be a V-8, thank God).

GM may save the day with the C8 Vette.

[ViperSRT]

I am missing something. Why are several posters stating it is not an ACR-E. The Monroney label surely shows it to have the extreme option. Many of the GTC versions of the ACR-E lack the CCBs.

[ACRSNK]

Hennesey Venom F5...Yowza!

[Policy Limits]

Lot 3010 ohhhh baby!

[serpent]

Curious to know what that super snake sells for. A regular gt500 for the same year is Down in the 30s some under 30k depending on mileage.

[ACRucrazy]

How can someone auction a GT when others get sued by ford?

[Vprbite]

I bet the FGT brings $1.5mil.

What did John Cena sell his for?

[Scott_in_fl]

How can someone auction a GT when others get sued by ford?

An excellent question, sir!

[ACRSNK]

How can someone auction a GT when others get sued by ford?

Obviously there was an exception made. Isn’t the money going to charity?

[13COBRA]

How can someone auction a GT when others get sued by ford?

It's for charity. This car has never been titled. This car was built by Ford Motor Company to be auctioned at BJ.


What did John Cena sell his for?

He sold his for just over $1mil.

[Scott_in_fl]

Obviously there was an exception made. Isn’t the money going to charity?

If I were an owner, I would be irate. This is Ford breaking the very covenant that it forced down the throat of all the buyers. I understood the purpose of the covenant was for Ford to protect the brand by ensuring that only "qualified" buyers had an opportunity to purchase the car, with the term "qualified" defined as thoroughly vetted and loyal enthusiasts who deserve to have it (in the eyes of Ford). In exchange, if selected, these enthusiasts agreed that they wanted the cars for themselves and were willing to promise they would not sell it for 2 years. What's good for the goose, should be good for the gander.

So now what? Everyone can "sell" their car through a charity? So I can basically consign my car to a charity that raffles it off for say $1m, with the deal between me and the charity being that we split 50/50 the proceeds in excess of my purchase price. That's $250k to charity, and $250k to me. Not bad.

Edit: Just read 13Cobra's post which must have crossed mine. If true, then that changes things a little, but still means that Ford is playing fast and loose. Unless Ford disclosed to buyers that it was going to build a certain number of charity cars and allow them to be auctioned off (presumptively to buyers that would not be bound by any resale restriction), then I still cry foul. How many other charity cars is it building and "selling", ahem, giving away to charity? I would love to see the paperwork between Ford and BJ on this one. I'm sure Cena's counsel will subpoena it.

[Coloviper]

I hope Ford looses their shirt. Absolutely disagree with this manufacturer behavior (Ferrari has similar issues in the past). If someone buys a product from a manufacturer, ownership is transferred. Title is in new owners name. The manufacturer no longer has a say in said product, except for warranty. Ford has adopted this elitist attitude. Would not buy a product from a manufacturer with such an ego. I know others are Gogo Gaga over this new FGT but I don’t understand it. Why pay $1/2M for a car you don’t really have control over. Fully expect Ford to lose the Cena case.

[13COBRA]

Edit: Just read 13Cobra's post which must have crossed mine. If true, then that changes things a little, but still means that Ford is playing fast and loose. Unless Ford disclosed to buyers that it was going to build a certain number of charity cars and allow them to be auctioned off (presumptively to buyers that would not be bound by any resale restriction), then I still cry foul. How many other charity cars is it building and "selling", ahem, giving away to charity? I would love to see the paperwork between Ford and BJ on this one. I'm sure Cena's counsel will subpoena it.

The buying agreement says that the buyer may not resale the vehicle within 2 years, unless they give FMC the opportunity to purchase it back.

FMC can sell a vehicle at auction to its first owner.

I'm not sure if the winning bidder will have to abide by the same rules, as it is a difference circumstance. If you bought them through the dealer you paid MSRP, not a dime over. With the winning bidder paying considerably more than MSRP, I would venture to guess he/she should be able to sell it for whatever the market would bear, but I don't know that for a fact.

The reason Ford set it up like that was to keep the secondary market from selling for ridiculous prices like the 05/06. Ford wants to control who gets their cars.



I hope Ford looses their shirt. Absolutely disagree with this manufacturer behavior (Ferrari has similar issues in the past). If someone buys a product from a manufacturer, ownership is transferred. Title is in new owners name. The manufacturer no longer has a say in said product, except for warranty. Ford has adopted this elitist attitude. Would not buy a product from a manufacturer with such an ego. I know others are Gogo Gaga over this new FGT but I don’t understand it. Why pay $1/2M for a car you don’t really have control over. Fully expect Ford to lose the Cena case.

If you bought the car and Ford had 'complete control over it' you paid MSRP...not $1-2mil.

Ford will win the Cena case, guarantee. Cena has already announced that he made a mistake.

Porsche and Ferrari do the same things with their halo cars. Porsche has won 3-4 cases and Ferrari 2.

[1of1TA1.0]

Ford does not have an Ego, they knew the demand would be extreme for this new GT. They didn't want them "parked" and "stored", instead, as a Halo car, they developed the criteria to sell them to the people that would be ambassadors. I know three from my area getting them, they truly are ambassadors and Do drive their cars. A similar instance that a manufacturer did this was Lexus. They would only lease the LFA for either 12 or 24 months. If you could show that you promoted the brand with the car, you could then purchase it. If you didn't they took it back in.

Whether anyone thinks this is good is subjective obviously. Most importantly, if you signed a legal contract stating you agree, well then you are under legal contract. It was of your own free will to sign the contract.

As for being pissed about the BJ Auction, my guess at least, I doubt they will be. If you go to the Ford GT forum I bet they are going to be happy. Why do I believe this? Because this will give them a more accurate sense of what the car may be worth. They know that MSRP is good, and over time probably will get better. I read all of these threads about how they made more GT's than Vipers in a given year. This argument is aimed at how their market went and how some think ours will go. I don't buy into this, the GT was and is more iconic. It was the original that set out to destroy Ferrari and accomplished it. The other half of the debate is, 25 thousand Vipers in 25 years. Sounds great especially considering they didn't make Vipers every year of that 25 years. Ford GT? Well probably less than 5,000 in 52 years (roughly, I don't know when they made the first).

I like that Ford decided to do this program, I just wish I could have had the cash to even try for one. I love the original GT but the 04-06 never did anything for me. This new one seems stunning and a piece of art, even with the V6.

Again, my opinion only

[Terminator02]

Ford does not have an Ego, they knew the demand would be extreme for this new GT. They didn't want them "parked" and "stored", instead, as a Halo car, they developed the criteria to sell them to the people that would be ambassadors. I know three from my area getting them, they truly are ambassadors and Do drive their cars. A similar instance that a manufacturer did this was Lexus. They would only lease the LFA for either 12 or 24 months. If you could show that you promoted the brand with the car, you could then purchase it. If you didn't they took it back in.

Whether anyone thinks this is good is subjective obviously. Most importantly, if you signed a legal contract stating you agree, well then you are under legal contract. It was of your own free will to sign the contract.

As for being pissed about the BJ Auction, my guess at least, I doubt they will be. If you go to the Ford GT forum I bet they are going to be happy. Why do I believe this? Because this will give them a more accurate sense of what the car may be worth. They know that MSRP is good, and over time probably will get better. I read all of these threads about how they made more GT's than Vipers in a given year. This argument is aimed at how their market went and how some think ours will go. I don't buy into this, the GT was and is more iconic. It was the original that set out to destroy Ferrari and accomplished it. The other half of the debate is, 25 thousand Vipers in 25 years. Sounds great especially considering they didn't make Vipers every year of that 25 years. Ford GT? Well probably less than 5,000 in 52 years (roughly, I don't know when they made the first).

I like that Ford decided to do this program, I just wish I could have had the cash to even try for one. I love the original GT but the 04-06 never did anything for me. This new one seems stunning and a piece of art, even with the V6.

Again, my opinion only

Good opinion. I do not hear the NFGT owners discussing this and your comments on why the owners were chosen to drive enjoy and be brand champions is spot on. And quite frankly, I have heard numerous offers of 1.2mm offers going to a few local people which arent being considered in the slightest. If one could profit 700k I make an assumption high net worth was also vetted and resale on this car is not near a worry for the current picks of the litter. And damn good on them for driving and enjoying them more than some here keeping theirs in a bubble waiting....and waiting.

[13COBRA]

Ford does not have an Ego, they knew the demand would be extreme for this new GT. They didn't want them "parked" and "stored", instead, as a Halo car, they developed the criteria to sell them to the people that would be ambassadors. I know three from my area getting them, they truly are ambassadors and Do drive their cars. A similar instance that a manufacturer did this was Lexus. They would only lease the LFA for either 12 or 24 months. If you could show that you promoted the brand with the car, you could then purchase it. If you didn't they took it back in.


Whether anyone thinks this is good is subjective obviously. Most importantly, if you signed a legal contract stating you agree, well then you are under legal contract. It was of your own free will to sign the contract.

Fact.


As for being pissed about the BJ Auction, my guess at least, I doubt they will be. If you go to the Ford GT forum I bet they are going to be happy. Why do I believe this? Because this will give them a more accurate sense of what the car may be worth. They know that MSRP is good, and over time probably will get better. I read all of these threads about how they made more GT's than Vipers in a given year. This argument is aimed at how their market went and how some think ours will go. I don't buy into this, the GT was and is more iconic. It was the original that set out to destroy Ferrari and accomplished it. The other half of the debate is, 25 thousand Vipers in 25 years. Sounds great especially considering they didn't make Vipers every year of that 25 years. Ford GT? Well probably less than 5,000 in 52 years (roughly, I don't know when they made the first).

I would disagree, I don't believe the charity auction will be indicative to the actual values of the cars...as many cars have sold for charity in excess of what the market value is.


I like that Ford decided to do this program, I just wish I could have had the cash to even try for one. I love the original GT but the 04-06 never did anything for me. This new one seems stunning and a piece of art, even with the V6.

Again, my opinion only

2005-06.

My dad has owned 3 or 4 of the 05/06s; they were a blast to drive!

[PkB2014]

Ford will win the Cena case, guarantee. Cena has already announced that he made a mistake.

Porsche and Ferrari do the same things with their halo cars. Porsche has won 3-4 cases and Ferrari 2.

Don't you usually have to show you were hurt in some way to win anything in a case like this? What damage has Cena done to Ford, or any of the other cases you mention with Porsche and Ferrari? I always understood that those companies just removed the person from eligible client lists for all future purchases. That really seems like the only reasonable outcome.

[1of1TA1.0]

I would agree with you that this is more likely the case than what I stated!


Fact.



I would disagree, I don't believe the charity auction will be indicative to the actual values of the cars...as many cars have sold for charity in excess of what the market value is.



2005-06.

My dad has owned 3 or 4 of the 05/06s; they were a blast to drive!

I have driven my buddies Whippled/Built motor 05 on a few occasions, I didn't like the turn in nor the brakes. Mind you, I track more now than anything else. It was a very nice car but subjective to me, I didn't care for them. Wish I would have when he was trying to talk me into buying one though, I would have a few more pennies in my pocket.

[13COBRA]

Don't you usually have to show you were hurt in some way to win anything in a case like this? What damage has Cena done to Ford, or any of the other cases you mention with Porsche and Ferrari? I always understood that those companies just removed the person from eligible client lists for all future purchases. That really seems like the only reasonable outcome.

He broke his end of the contract. Ford doesn't necessarily need to prove any damages; breaking their contractual agreement would be enough.

If they needed to claim damages, they easily could. The reasons, which have been listed in this thread (keeping their car in the public's eye and not in the basement of a collector's house, etc etc etc) they had the buyer's agreement to begin with, are now violated and can 'cause them damage'.

[Scott_in_fl]

He broke his end of the contract. Ford doesn't necessarily need to prove any damages; breaking their contractual agreement would be enough.

If they needed to claim damages, they easily could. The reasons, which have been listed in this thread (keeping their car in the public's eye and not in the basement of a collector's house, etc etc etc) they had the buyer's agreement to begin with, are now violated and can 'cause them damage'.

Agreed that Ford can come up with plenty of allegations for how it is damaged (i.e. the "goodwill" of the brand is harmed). But anytime I hear that something is done for "charity" a red flag raises for me. Too many people use their "charity" term to cloak their self-dealing and profiteering motive. Apparently, if you say that anything is for "charity" then it is assumed that a good portion of the money is going to help starving children, or cancer research, or some other noble goal. However, the reality is that far too many charities claim to raise money for a great cause but then dole out the money to their organizers and friends as allowed payments to salaried staff, wage payments to employees, kickbacks to sponsors, overpaying vendors, etc., and very, very little makes its way to the intended recipient. For some reason, our passion of driving great cars has attracted a lot of "charities" as most of the organized car events that have become so popular around the country seem to be for such a purpose.

With regard to corporate "charities" there is usually a back room deal where one entity makes a massive donation to a charity sponsored by a second entity, which then reciprocates by making a similar donation at an event hosted by the first. This circular "giving" to charities sponsored by the other is a write off that often comes back because the donations, as mentioned above, largely go to paying the people running the charity.

What would be tremendously telling is to learn what charity this FGT is benefitting; how much the beneficiary will receive; how much the charity will keep to offset its "expenses"; and how much will go back to Ford (or one of its charities) for providing the car. Unless this thing is squeaky clean, with all of the money going to the beneficiary (or at least a very significant portion of it -- like 90%), then there may be an angle for Cena (and other buyers) to attack the Ford contract by claiming "unclean hands" or that they were misled about what the intent/purpose of the restriction was all about. However, before it goes there, this case like 93% of all cases filed in courts, will be settled amicably between the parties with confidentiality provisions all around.

[13COBRA]

Agreed that Ford can come up with plenty of allegations for how it is damaged (i.e. the "goodwill" of the brand is harmed). But anytime I hear that something is done for "charity" a red flag raises for me. Too many people use their "charity" term to cloak their self-dealing and profiteering motive. Apparently, if you say that anything is for "charity" then it is assumed that a good portion of the money is going to help starving children, or cancer research, or some other noble goal. However, the reality is that far too many charities claim to raise money for a great cause but then dole out the money to their organizers and friends as allowed payments to salaried staff, wage payments to employees, kickbacks to sponsors, overpaying vendors, etc., and very, very little makes its way to the intended recipient. For some reason, our passion of driving great cars has attracted a lot of "charities" as most of the organized car events that have become so popular around the country seem to be for such a purpose.

With regard to corporate "charities" there is usually a back office deal where one entity makes a massive donation to a charity sponsored by a second entity, which then reciprocates by making a similar donation at an event hosted by the first. This circular "giving" to charities sponsored by the other is a write off that often comes back because the donations, as mentioned above, largely go to paying the people running the charity.

What would be tremendously telling is to learn what charity this FGT is benefitting; how much the beneficiary will receive; how much the charity will keep to offset its "expenses"; and how much will go back to Ford (or one of its charities) for providing the car. Unless this thing is squeaky clean, with all of the money going to the beneficiary (or at least a very significant portion of it -- like 90%), then there may be an angle for Cena (and other buyers) to attack the Ford contract by claiming "unclean hands" or that they were misled about what the purpose of the restriction was all about.

Well, unfortunately none of that will ever become public knowledge.

[ViperDC]

I just want this one. No Reserve!

the heritage edition is cheesy as hell

I'll take gunmetal with silver stripes

[PkB2014]

He broke his end of the contract. Ford doesn't necessarily need to prove any damages; breaking their contractual agreement would be enough.

If they needed to claim damages, they easily could. The reasons, which have been listed in this thread (keeping their car in the public's eye and not in the basement of a collector's house, etc etc etc) they had the buyer's agreement to begin with, are now violated and can 'cause them damage'.

Yes, and the value of these "damages" is what? How many $? It seems hard to be able to put a monetary price on these things. Unless the contract spelled out an exact price for breaking the contract, then the only outcome seems be "No more special cars for that customer."

[13COBRA]

Yes, and the value of it is what? How many $? It seems hard to be able to put a monetary price on these things. Unless the contract spelled out an exact price for breaking the contract, then the only outcome seems be "No more special cars for that customer."

The value of what? I'm confused to what you are asking.

Dealers HAD to sell the cars at MSRP to the customer. In Ford's agreement the owner he had to keep the car for 2 years, and if they decided to sell it before the 2 year period they had to offer it back to Ford at MSRP. Kinda like a 1st right of refusal. Made it so it couldn't transfer hands at a profit for the owner.

[PkB2014]

The value of what? I'm confused to what you are asking.

Dealers HAD to sell the cars at MSRP to the customer. In Ford's agreement the owner he had to keep the car for 2 years, and if they decided to sell it before the 2 year period they had to offer it back to Ford at MSRP. Kinda like a 1st right of refusal. Made it so it couldn't transfer hands at a profit for the owner.

The penalty? Say we state it's a fact that Cena "loses" this in court. OK, what is he losing? What is the monetary value of all the "damages" Ford claims? I can only see Cena losing his purchase rights to any future special Ford vehicles.

[Taximan1]

The penalty? Say we state it's a fact that Cena "loses" this in court. OK, what is he losing? What is the monetary value of all the "damages" Ford claims? I can only see Cena losing his purchase rights to any future special Ford vehicles.

This matter will be settled. They will ask for the profits above MSRP(or whatever the dollar amount paid), undisclosed damages to the brand, court costs, etc, he will defend, it will be settled for a portion, and undisclosed... I would bet you.

It is my understanding (although I haven't read the "contract") That there was a provision that Ford and/or the dealer would take the car back within the 2 year "contract" period for (MSRP, or whatever was paid) If there was some type of financial hardship, or maybe you didn't like it, etc.. Obviously to prevent the "I'm losing my house, so I sold it" defense.

So, Cena will almost definitely have a judgement for a portion (if not all of it) I would think.. He really has no defense. Again, it will be settled, and we all will never know the terms.. Its just Ford letting the world know they will enforce the contract.

[13COBRA]

The penalty? Say we state it's a fact that Cena "loses" this in court. OK, what is he losing? What is the monetary value of all the "damages" Ford claims? I can only see Cena losing his purchase rights to any future special Ford vehicles.

I haven't seen an exact copy of the agreement, but after talking to a buddy in Detroit with Ford, he says that Ford is entitled to any monetary gain that was made by selling the vehicle.

So anything over MSRP, Ford would receive. Then they would ask for court costs and whatever costs they incurred during the process.

[Scott_in_fl]

So, I found the complaint and its attachments (which include the contract). They are posted here: https://jalopnik.com/john-cena-is-being-sued-by-ford-for-reselling-his-new-f-1820913011

I gave it a quick read (the complaint, not the attachments) and interestingly, it appears that there may not be anything in the contract itself about the 24-mo. restriction. The language that Ford relies upon is apparently found above the signature line on an order confirmation. Of course, Ford will argue that the order confirmation is incorporated into the contract. But Cena will argue that he read the contract, did not see any such prohibition, and agreed to the deal when he signed it in July 2016. He signed the order confirmation in January 2017 and will argue that he thought he was just confirming his configuration and never expected that such a confirmation would include new, additional, and different contract terms that related back to an agreement signed 5 months earlier. Thus, he is going to play dumb here and Ford may have some work cut out for itself.

What Ford should have done is include precise language about the restriction in the actual contract that was first signed. But it seems this restriction may have been an after thought that Ford then tried to include after people were already vetted, selected, and agreed to the deal. There is a concept of "no new consideration" for the later added terms and thus, this is not a slam dunk.

Also, I did not see anything about the obligation to sell the car back to Ford, although it does appear that a Ford representative offered that option.

A very interesting read for sure. And I'm certain the contract itself is interesting, although I did not feel like going through it myself.

As others have pointed out, this will be settled quickly. Cena will offer $100k and Ford will take it. Both parties will be subject to confidentiality and we will never learn that Cena made off with probably $500k in his pocket and that all Ford really wanted was the ability to demonstrate that they will sue you if you sell your FGT.

[13COBRA]

So, I found the complaint and its attachments (which include the contract). They are posted here: https://jalopnik.com/john-cena-is-being-sued-by-ford-for-reselling-his-new-f-1820913011

I gave it a quick read (the complaint, not the attachments) and interestingly, it appears that there may not be anything in the contract itself about the 24-mo. restriction. The language that Ford relies upon is apparently found above the signature line on an order confirmation. Of course, Ford will argue that the order confirmation is incorporated into the contract. But Cena will argue that he read the contract, did not see any such prohibition, and agreed to the deal when he signed it in July 2016. He signed the order confirmation in January 2017 and will argue that he thought he was just confirming his configuration and never expected that such a confirmation would include new, additional, and different contract terms that related back to an agreement signed 5 months earlier. Thus, he is going to play dumb here and Ford may have some work cut out for itself.

What Ford should have done is include precise language about the restriction in the actual contract that was first signed. But it seems this restriction may have been an after thought that Ford then tried to include after people were already vetted, selected, and agreed to the deal. There is a concept of "no new consideration" for the later added terms and thus, this is not a slam dunk.

Also, I did not see anything about the obligation to sell the car back to Ford, although it does appear that a Ford representative offered that option.

A very interesting read for sure. And I'm certain the contract itself is interesting, although I did not feel like going through it myself.

As others have pointed out, this will be settled quickly. Cena will offer $100k and Ford will take it. Both parties will be subject to confidentiality and we will never learn that Cena made off with probably $500k in his pocket and that all Ford really wanted was the ability to demonstrate that they will sue you if you sell your FGT.


I think Ford has two legs to stand on, and if they wanted to (which they probably don't due to poor publicity) good win this in court.

[Policy Limits]

Bet Ford wins every penny

[Coloviper]

The buying agreement says that the buyer may not resale the vehicle within 2 years, unless they give FMC the opportunity to purchase it back.

FMC can sell a vehicle at auction to its first owner.

I'm not sure if the winning bidder will have to abide by the same rules, as it is a difference circumstance. If you bought them through the dealer you paid MSRP, not a dime over. With the winning bidder paying considerably more than MSRP, I would venture to guess he/she should be able to sell it for whatever the market would bear, but I don't know that for a fact.

The reason Ford set it up like that was to keep the secondary market from selling for ridiculous prices like the 05/06. Ford wants to control who gets their cars.




If you bought the car and Ford had 'complete control over it' you paid MSRP...not $1-2mil.

Ford will win the Cena case, guarantee. Cena has already announced that he made a mistake.

Porsche and Ferrari do the same things with their halo cars. Porsche has won 3-4 cases and Ferrari 2.

Last time I checked $1/2M meant $500k! Not sure where I said 1 or 2 mil. As far as Ford, I as a born and raised Blue Oval man but be damned if I would give one red cent to any company who would dictate what I can do with my purchased car. They could keep their little boutique halo. I still think it is a crock. Some owners will drive them but don't kid yourself, plenty will go right in the garage, basement or museum. Personally the whole process is egotistical and arrogant but that is just how I feel about it.

[Unlimtd]

Bet Ford wins every penny

The Ford GT Order Confirmation he signed is very clear. He will lose. But Ford should have sued to rescind both the original sale and the subsequent sale. The buyer had to know that the sale to him was unlawful. Everyone in the car world knew. As to the sale proceeds to Cenna. the buyer should get his money back less an allocable share of the litigation costs and Cenna should receive an amount back equal to what he paid less his share of the litigation costs. Ford could then resell the car to whomever it wants to. Ford probably did not take this route because it is a harder and more time consuming case and the applicable state law may not be favorable to rescission used in this fashion.

[Geronimo]

If I were an owner, I would be irate. This is Ford breaking the very covenant that it forced down the throat of all the buyers.

So now what? Everyone can "sell" their car through a charity? It's their car company and he signed a contract. If someone doesn't like their rules then don't buy their products. They have a right as a the creator of this product to make an exception for charity if they wish or any exception for that matter. They claim all the money goes to charity which is better than some wrestler who probably doesn't need the money and thought he was above the law and would break the contract. It's called Capitalism. Just like for many years when BJ did away with the reserve and many owners bought back their own cars to keep from losing major $$$ on their pride and joy while Craig Jackson laughed all the way to the bank...

[ACRSNK]

So many lawyers on this thread.

[Policy Limits]

I really am a lawyer though! Lol

[13COBRA]

Last time I checked $1/2M meant $500k! Not sure where I said 1 or 2 mil. As far as Ford, I as a born and raised Blue Oval man but be damned if I would give one red cent to any company who would dictate what I can do with my purchased car. They could keep their little boutique halo. I still think it is a crock. Some owners will drive them but don't kid yourself, plenty will go right in the garage, basement or museum. Personally the whole process is egotistical and arrogant but that is just how I feel about it.

Easy killer, I thought when you had typed $1/2mil you meant one or two million. Who the hell types $500k as $1/2mil anyways?

You must not ever want to buy a Lexus, Porsche, Ferrari or Lamborghini either. Ford Motor Company is not the first company to do this.

[Policy Limits]

Check out lot 3009 nice!

[Scott_in_fl]

Query: If Cena shows up to the dealer to pick up his car, now more than a year after signing the original contract and almost a year after signing the confirmation, and before being handed the keys Ford asks him to sign yet another covenant stating that he agrees to drive the car only on Sundays, and he signs it so that he can pick up his car, is that enforceable?

The question is relevant to the "no new consideration" argument. Cena had already signed the agreement and, if I recall correctly, had already paid 50% of his money when he was asked to sign the order confirmation which now includes additional, material terms.

The question I suppose boils down to when the deal was made, and what deal was made at that time. Obviously, the operative date is when the deal was made to pay money and receive a car.

Any subsequent "deals" must be supported by new consideration from both sides.

Now, again, I have not read the entirety of the contract or other attachments, so it is possible that the contract contemplates the subsequent order confirmation and may even state that no agreement is formed until the confirmation is signed (or that all money is paid), etc.

[13COBRA]

Query: If Cena shows up to the dealer to pick up his car, now more than a year after signing the original contract and almost a year after signing the confirmation, and before being handed the keys Ford asks him to sign yet another covenant stating that he agrees to drive the car only on Sundays, and he signs it so that he can pick up his car, is that enforceable?

The question is relevant to the "no new consideration" argument. Cena had already signed the agreement and, if I recall correctly, had already paid 50% of his money when he was asked to sign the order confirmation which now includes additional, material terms.

The question I suppose boils down to when the deal was made, and what deal was made at that time. Obviously, the operative date is when the deal was made to pay money and receive a car.

Any subsequent "deals" must be supported by new consideration from both sides.

Now, again, I have not read the entirety of the contract or other attachments, so it is possible that the contract contemplates the subsequent order confirmation and may even state that no agreement is formed until the confirmation is signed (or that all money is paid), etc.

I guess time will tell eh, Scott?

[Scott_in_fl]

I guess time will tell eh, Scott?

Yeah, it would be nice to see how it plays out, but this will go away quickly. I could follow along on the federal court system if I wanted to, but I honestly don't think there will be much activity in the case (and probably because it is open to peering eyes). Again, I think Cena offers a deal, and Ford takes it. The real value of the case to Ford is making the point that it will enforce the covenant. That goal has been accomplished. Ford does not need the $700k (or whatever amount) back from Cena. That's not even a drop in the ocean for them. They just don't want him to run his mouth if they let him keep it.

[Policy Limits]

Ford to Cena: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n0jMCKForEQ

[13COBRA]

ford to cena: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n0jmckforeq

hahahahaha

[ViperDC]

Ford to Cena: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n0jMCKForEQ

lol

[Arizona Vipers]

Hey Arizona Vipers, B.J.'s website lists: On-site Buyer's Premium: 10%, Absentee Buyer's Premium: 12%. Where do they disclose the 8.3% city sales tax to Scottsdale? Never heard of this before, is this for Arizona residents?

Barrett Jackson takes title of every car before they sell it. So none are actually sold by a private owner. So yeah if you live in AZ you have to pay Scottsdale sales tax. If you live in a state that collects sales tax on cars sold from a dealership, with reciprocity (most states do this) you'll end up paying there. Google your state along with "vehicle sales tax reciprocity"

[Voice of Reason]

How much did these end up selling for?

[RedTanRT/10]

How much did these end up selling for?

Scheduled to both run on January 20th

[ViperJon]

The TA is part of some guys collection of like 10 cars might go off during prime time Saturday?

[Policy Limits]

Hopefully it's during the Patriots game NFL = No Fans Left. Haha

[Martin2000GTS]

Had a chance to buy the ACR/TA and i passed on it! hopefully im not gonna be kicking myself in the ass for it!

[ViperJon]

Hopefully it's during the Patriots game NFL = No Fans Left. Haha

It won't be, this car will be going off Saturday probably towards the evening. It's lot #1436.
From the Steve Todhunter Collection whoever that is.

[ViperDC]

It won't be, this car will be going off Saturday probably towards the evening. It's lot #1436.
From the Steve Todhunter Collection whoever that is.

i love how every guy with a few cars right now auctions them as a "collection" to build the hype

...and now, on offer for the first time from the Who Gives a Rats Ass Collection

[Stealth78]

Hopefully it's during the Patriots game NFL = No Fans Left. Haha

They're not the same day.

[Stealth78]

Had a chance to buy the ACR/TA and i passed on it! hopefully im not gonna be kicking myself in the ass for it!

As beautiful as your car is something tells me you will be kicking yourself.......

[Policy Limits]

I watched the auction for about an hour last night. Holy six figure friday...

[13COBRA]

The competition blue ACR-E is going across as well today. Lot #1291.1. Nothing unique about it really and has 4200 miles on it.
I predict mediocre numbers for both cars, Vipers historically do poorly at BJ.

Yes they do.

It's really unfortunate, but the types of people who buy at BJ are not Viper people.

Buddy of mine picked up a red Diablo with 2000 miles and a restored 400 mile 1968 GT500. He is a Viper fan, kinda. He has a 2013 GTS currently.

30679

30680

[ACRSNK]

Is he also a body builder? I see him flexing next to the Mustang.

[ViperJon]

Live stream till TV coverage starts: http://www.barrett-jackson.com/Live/Streaming/Video/93f04d0d-614b-4e1c-b4ca-c87d88b709c4

[13COBRA]

Is he also a body builder? I see him flexing next to the Mustang.

Haha nope, just a 30 something year old guy with a lot of money.

All jokes aside, he's a good dude.

[ViperGeorge]

How can one tell when lot 1436 will cross the block? I can't see anything on the BJ website that would tell me approximately when the ACR/TA goes on.

[ViperJon]

The Blue ACR is about 20 cars away at the moment. No way to tell when the TA will cross...even worse it can be during a commercial lol

[Arizona Vipers]

How can one tell when lot 1436 will cross the block? I can't see anything on the BJ website that would tell me approximately when the ACR/TA goes on.


Let's all not forget the MSRP on those Orange TA/ACR's was only $129,785 and that included the Harmon Kardon stereo

[ViperJon]

Competition Blue ACR-E sold $150K not bad.

[13COBRA]

The blue one brought more than I thought it would, plus the fee. $150k + 10%.

[Arizona Vipers]

The blue one went for $150K. Not bad for a low option "high mile" 2016. So they paid $165K ($168K if it was an internet bidder) plus whatever sales tax their state will collect.

[ViperGeorge]

Hopefully the orange ACR/TA will go past $200K. :car-smiley-003:

[13COBRA]

Sales tax is irrelevant in my opinion.

[ViperJon]

Strong money for the Blue ACR-E but like with most auctions usually not indicative of real world prices. I mean who here on this website would pay 165K for that car....even brand new? Besides Catwood? :) Nobody that knows Vipers. For less money you could have a brand new SE Voodoo or GTS-R. Delivered.

[13COBRA]

Strong money for the Blue ACR-E but like with most auctions usually not indicative of real world prices. I mean who here on this website would pay 165K for that car....even brand new? Besides Catwood? :) Nobody that knows Vipers. For less money you could have a brand new SE Voodoo or GTS-R. Delivered.

Scott would. I'm sure he thought it was worth $200k.

[ACRSNK]

Auctions have become a battle ground for wealthy people to show off how much coin they have. Case in point is this Viper. Doesn’t make sense when you can still get a new one for much less. Fine by me though. I like the fact that it sold strong.

[Arizona Vipers]

Auctions have become a battle ground for wealthy people to show off how much coin they have. Case in point is this Viper. Doesn’t make sense when you can still get a new one for much less. Fine by me though. I like the fact that it sold strong.

Yeah and that blue one wasn't even on live TV yet. The real battles start happening right around the time the orange car is going through. I registered online to bid, but I know it's going to go for way more than I'm willing to pay

[Policy Limits]

Buck and a half...nice. how does Barrett-Jackson beat 6 figure friday?....with 7 figure Saturday. Enjoy

[Scott_in_fl]

Scott would. I'm sure he thought it was worth $200k.

Nope. See post #12. My guess was 145k for the 2016 and 175k for the 2017.

So far I'm within $5,000 of correctly predicting the value.

[Policy Limits]

I like the blue one better than the orange one

[Murpowa]

People eager to spend their capital gains from last year

[Policy Limits]

Mad dividends. Don't worry libtardz the next 7 years will fly by. Haha

[OneofOneViper]

Time for guesses? I'm going with 140k for the TA/ACR. I'll guess $135k for the 2016. That might be on the low end since most cars seem to be selling at a premium, but guess we'll see

[13COBRA]

Time for guesses? I'm going with 140k for the TA/ACR. I'll guess $135k for the 2016. That might be on the low end since most cars seem to be selling at a premium, but guess we'll see

The 2016 sold for $150k plus 10% fees.

[Policy Limits]

Demon almost tied that ACR at 145k wow

[Scott_in_fl]

Those demons have serious price appreciation potential.

[Murpowa]

People eager to spend their capital gains from last year

Case in point, a demon selling for 145k...they msrp for 84,995 and will be saturating dealer lots like hellcats in due time.

Dumb money imo...

[Policy Limits]

TA/ACR won't pull what the SE cars do. I say 140-150k. Remember a Voodoo II went for 170 at mecum.

[Arizona Vipers]

TA/ACR won't pull what the SE cars do. I say 140-150k. Remember a Voodoo II went for 170 at mecum.

The orange car will go for more than the blue one besides the much lower MSRP of the orange car. For one it's going through during Prime Time TV when prices skyrocket, plus it has 100 miles on it.

[Sybil TF]

is he also a body builder? I see him flexing next to the mustang.lmao!

[ViperJon]

TA/ACR won't pull what the SE cars do. I say 140-150k. Remember a Voodoo II went for 170 at mecum.

They’re drunker and richer at BJ. 165-170K.

[SharpMan]

Case in point, a demon selling for 145k...they msrp for 84,995 and will be saturating dealer lots like hellcats in due time.

Dumb money imo...

Agreed. Dodge is building 3,000 for the US and 300 for Canada.

[Racingswh]

Amazing to me what some of these cars are selling for now. I do like watching but that does not mean I understand it. Mostly slow junk that won't even get out of its own way.

Will definitely be interesting to see what that other ACR whatever it is sells for. I know it's going to be far less then what I value mine at now. I raise the valuation of mine 10% every year from my original 300K asking price whether the market likes it or not. LOL!

At these prices for an ACR I won't even get the money back I've spent already on brakes & tires.

[Policy Limits]

It's a unique crowd. I see that Gen 1 Diablo going for a buck and a quarter and then these ancient American cars hammering at hundreds of thousands. I would take the diablo for 30 pennies on those other cars' dollar. With the dough you save you can grab a raptor for winter months and have some residual dollars for a carribean vacation lol

[Racingswh]

It's a unique crowd.

these ancient American cars hammering at hundreds of thousands.

Exactly. Most older cars are completely useless to me. Even the exotics or whatever. There was a time I could say "I will have this car disabled, broken or in limp mode in 20 minutes" and that was the truth. Now using the ACR as the example, they are amazingly durable. Day after day weekend after weekend they just suck it up and do so while being faster than most everything on the track while they're at it.

There's literally only 2 or 3 others cars I will ever need. A 991 GT3 Cup RSR and a current model Trans Am or Comp Coupe. Then I am good and I don't see any of those at BJ tonight. lol!!

[ViperGeorge]

I like the blue one better than the orange one

Blasphemy!!!!

[Schen]

Barrett Jackson is a good place to score an exotic! $275k for that white Aventador. LOL

The collection is coming up soon. They showed the 96' a bit.

--RS

[Policy Limits]

$210,000.00!!!! Wow!

[ACRucrazy]

$210,000.00!!!! Wow!

Believe it! Those cars will do well IMO

[OneofOneViper]

The crowd is all American today that is for sure. Did you see that 58 Corvette that went for 400k? Just crazy. There is a TA/ACR for sale right now for 159k I believe I saw last week. It did have 1500 miles I think, but similar car for 50k less.

Also I want to add that even at 210k, I think these Viper ACRs are under valued.

[Schen]

Mr. H got the car. Slowly becoming a Mopar guy. LOL :)

--RS

[ViperGeorge]

Wow, now I'm nervous to track mine.

[J TNT]

Good strong number for the ACR TA .

[dadeuce]

Wow! Always good to see a Viper go for big bucks ... but wow is the word. There wasn't a lot of interest in that GT3 RS or the 720S right before it. I didn't think there would be a buyer for the Viper ... but dang.

[OneofOneViper]

Wow! Always good to see a Viper go for big bucks ... but wow is the word. There wasn't a lot of interest in that GT3 RS or the 720S right before it. I didn't think there would be a buyer for the Viper ... but dang.

I missed it, how much did the GT3 RS and 720s go for?

[ACRSNK]

$210,000.00!!!! Wow!

Not surprised and happy it pulled a strong number. Prices are on the rise!!!!

[Policy Limits]

Everyone who said the special edition ACR cars weren't investments can eat crow! These things might be 1/2 mill inside of ten years!

[Schen]

GT3RS was in the $125-175k range, no sale. 720S wss close to retail, $350k, also no sale.

ACR TA #5 with 10% premium was $230k. Sold. Pretty cool.

--RS

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Not surprised, it's orange. Good news for all Vipers.

[Bruce H.]

Hope the buyer isn't too disappointed when he discovers it's not a "real" TA. :smilielol:

[ACRSNK]

Everyone who said the special edition ACR cars weren't investments can eat crow! These things might be 1/2 mill inside of ten years!

Your Viper is worth more than that Lambo you want to buy.

[ACRucrazy]

Hope the buyer isn't too disappointed when he discovers it's not a "real" TA. :smilielol:

Or a “real” ACR ;)

[ACRSNK]

Wow, now I'm nervous to track mine.

Put that thing in a bubble!

[ViperGeorge]

Or a “real” ACR ;)

Actually it is a real ACR-Extreme but with TA features (Header Orange, TA interior with orange stitching, and TA brakes). Bill Pemberton was able to convince FCA to build 10 identical 1 of 1 ACRs even though all 1 of 1s were supposed to be unique. Mine is number 4 although it was the first one built.

I really should have bought two, one to drive and one to save.

[Camfab]

Great to see that ACR/TA kill it. That was Bills Brainchild, and honestly one of the Coolest Vipers ever!

[ACRucrazy]

Actually it is a real ACR-Extreme but with TA features (Header Orange, TA interior with orange stitching, and TA brakes). Bill Pemberton was able to convince FCA to build 10 identical 1 of 1 ACRs even though all 1 of 1s were supposed to be unique. Mine is number 4 although it was the first one built.

I really should have bought two, one to drive and one to save.

I know, it was a joke directed at those who say GTC are not real ACR.

[J TNT]

And 2.5 million for the Ford GT , Good numbers for American cars ! And made in Ontario Canada . :)

[ACRSNK]

Great to see that ACR/TA kil it. That was Bills Brainchild, and honestly one of the Coolest Vipers ever!

Bill P. Is a proud daddy right now.

[LABrit]

The auctions were crazy. Everything went for retail or higher!

The Vipers did well. I definitely wouldn’t let mine go for less than the 175 I was seeking prior to the auctions and if anything would want more considering that basic spec comp blue hit 165 and the TA ACR which has no CCB’s or interior CF hit such a mad number.

[ACRSNK]

The auctions were crazy. Everything went for retail or higher!

The Vipers did well. I definitely wouldn’t let mine go for less than the 175 I was seeking prior to the auctions and if anything would want more considering that basic spec comp blue hit 165 and the TA ACR which has no CCB’s or interior CF hit such a mad number.

You should re adjust your price to something with a 2 in front. Definitely not many that spec’d out an ACR like yours with that beautiful interior.

[Voice of Reason]

What’s the BJ record for a Viper? Is this it?

[ViperJon]

You should re adjust your price to something with a 2 in front. Definitely not many that spec’d out an ACR like yours with that beautiful interior.

Yeah that should work. When you have no interest at 175K raising it 25K should move it quicker. Because Barrett Jackson.

[ACRSNK]

Yeah that should work. When you have no interest at 175K raising it 25K should move it quicker. Because Barrett Jackson.

Exactly!

[Policy Limits]

They bid with emotion. It's like a sport. Haha.

[Scott_in_fl]

Great prices and first semi-real indication of what these cars can do once the remaining inventory dries up. That ACR/TA price (with premium) is +$100k over window. Not bad!

I say semi-real because BJ can be inflated for a few reasons (televised, high profile auction that won't necessarily be where all ACR-E's will be sold). But it's also a forum with very knowledgeable, experienced, big money collectors. So, it's good to see those types embrace the car as investment worthy. Perhaps they've been reading this forum :)

To those that have hated on my posts (very few around here, but they know who they are), the reality is that those "value discussions" have allowed many of us to contribute lots of solid reasons why these cars should see significant price appreciation in the coming years. Don't think that other people do not read these forums (i.e. potential buyers, even collectors, snooping around and doing some due diligence). So, we should all be talking up the values of these cars as much as we can.

Maybe the haters who kept saying "it's not a Ford GT" were right all along. After all, it took the '05-06 FGT 10 years to see $100k appreciation.

As I always say, gents, hold onto your cars.

[OneofOneViper]

Strong money all around. Although after the new Ford GT was sold the entire room cleared out and the '96 fell in line with what would be expected. Keep in mind, while the custom ACR did sell for much less than the ACR/TA, it's really not a direct comparison because it isn't a 2017 final year, and it has 4000+ miles on it so it's not considered nearly as collectable by some.

30695

[ViperGeorge]

Seems like the Gen 5 ACRs are actually pulling in some good numbers. Not just the two at BJ but others that have sold recently. Voodoo IIs, GTS-Rs, etc. Heck ViperExchange has (had) a used GTS-R that they were asking the same money for that they sold a new GTS-R for a week earlier.

[ViperJon]

Viper Derangement Syndrome has taken over the forum.

[ACRSNK]

Viper Derangement Syndrome has taken over the forum.

You should protest and sell your GTS-R for $125K. That will surely teach everyone in here a lesson!

[BJG32]

Thanks Trump!

[ViperJon]

You should protest and sell your GTS-R for $125K. That will surely teach everyone in here a lesson!

Your idiotic advice to RAISE the price 25K for a car that couldn’t sell at 175K is a perfect example.

[Policy Limits]

What's the auction juice? Isn't it like 8% for buyer and seller to each contribute? How do those #'s work into the hammer price of $210k?

[Murpowa]

Viper Derangement Syndrome has taken over the forum.

Couldn't agree more. If anything, this will have an increasingly negative impact on the Viper community than beneficial

[Murpowa]

What's the auction juice? Isn't it like 8% for buyer and seller to each contribute? How do those #'s work into the hammer price of $210k?

Post #143...

[Policy Limits]

Crow is the breakfast of Champions this morning for all them naysayers. Haha.

[Scott_in_fl]

Couldn't agree more. If anything, this will have an increasingly negative impact on the Viper community than beneficial

How so? Talking up values should be good for everyone. It seems to work just fine on Wall Street.

[commandomatt]

I think we need to see more cars sold at these prices before we can call it a trend

Sure, its cool to see the numbers but a couple of cars sold at one auction is not setting a rule

[Policy Limits]

It's not good for everyone. Naysayers dog the car to adversely effect value for the secondary market. It worked so well in 2012-2014 that production ceased temporarily, manufacturer sticker price came down, and loyalty vouchers were given to the victims whom consequently overpaid. Not this time! (Trump voice) ha

[ViperJon]

I think it's great that the TA sold for big money, but I'm just trying to wrap my head around the fact that the buyer could have had a brand new untitled GTS-R or Voodoo or Dealer Edition car and SAVED 50k in the process. Or the guy that bought the Blue ACR-E could have had ANY brand new special edition DELIVERED for what he paid for a used 4500 mile car. Does that make any kind of logical sense to anyone here?

[Policy Limits]

I get what you're saying. I've been to these auctions. It's like a sport. Bidding is part of the fun for them I've deduced. Go on cars. Com right now and see that car (#9 I think) listed at motorcars of Georgia for like 60k less.https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/723411044/overview/

Does anyone know anything about the buyer?

[commandomatt]

I think it's great that the TA sold for big money, but I'm just trying to wrap my head around the fact that the buyer could have had a brand new untitled GTS-R or Voodoo or Dealer Edition car and SAVED 50k in the process. Or the guy that bought the Blue ACR-E could have had ANY brand new special edition DELIVERED for what he paid for a used 4500 mile car. Does that make any kind of logical sense to anyone here?

Shows that these were spur of the moment decisions (auction hype and excitement) with no due diligence. Especially pertaining to the 2016

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Whatever the price is I think you’re going to see a lot of right buyer / right car / right time scenarios. While there are a lot of Vipers out that are similar there are a lot of unique colors. The chance to buy an ACR TA probably won’t come up again for a long time - take it or risk never getting one. If your favorite color comes up for sale and there are few or no others built you might be willing to spend more on it. As awesome as the GTS R is there are 100 of them so a buyer might pass on paying more in the moment to wait for the next one. For this reason I don’t think you can necessarily say x car sold for y so z car is worth the same. The cars aren’t all red anymore or even 10 colors so i feel it’s going to be tough to nail down pricing other than general trends.

[Policy Limits]

That's true. Why buy a 500k NFGT for 2.5M? There's the variable of unavailability, the variable of immediate opportunity. Plus, the charitable component and fun involved in the process. Value transcends price, especially for a billionaire.

[TA Two Oh]

Hope the buyer isn't too disappointed when he discovers it's not a "real" TA. :smilielol:

Brilliant! And, Hilarious.

[ViperGeorge]

I get what you're saying. I've been to these auctions. It's like a sport. Bidding is part of the fun for them I've deduced. Go on cars. Com right now and see that car (#9 I think) listed at motorcars of Georgia for like 60k less.https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/723411044/overview/

Does anyone know anything about the buyer?

Even that car is listed at more than original MSRP. Some may say "yea, but it has all those modifications". Problem is that modifications don't usually add any value. And it isn't Yorange, I never liked Yorange. I believe the correct name for the color is Header Orange.

[Purple Haze]

Shows that these were spur of the moment decisions (auction hype and excitement) with no due diligence. Especially pertaining to the 2016

Good point...I deal in antiques related to old gas station items. You'll see a lot of that at Barrett-Jackson. As stated above many of these people love the thrill of the auction and would gladly pay more for an item there than a bland sale over the phone...I've seen it over and over and I know people who do this all the time. Items I sell for $1000 I've seen bring two and three times that at auction like Barrett. Doesn't happen all the time but enough. With that said I feel Vipers being such a limited edition car will go up faster than many collectors think and this price does not surprise me. We will see more of this than less of this. It's all good.

[Racingswh]

I think it's great that the TA sold for big money, but I'm just trying to wrap my head around the fact that the buyer could have had a brand new untitled GTS-R or Voodoo or Dealer Edition car and SAVED 50k in the process. Or the guy that bought the Blue ACR-E could have had ANY brand new special edition DELIVERED for what he paid for a used 4500 mile car. Does that make any kind of logical sense to anyone here?

I have a good friend I have helped at the track and we are warehouse neighbors. Pete has told me directly that he avoids Barrett Jackson because of the feeding frenzy and inflated prices. This isn't new. It's happened often at Barrett. There is no logic to the pricing. It's a well marketed TV show.

Pete spends a lot of time looking for additions to his collection. He finds little gems at less publicized auctions and often times privately held collections that have been neglected or passed on through into an Estate sale.

http://www.oldcarsweekly.com/features/dream-catching-couples-carcatcher-museum-is-a-private-palace

It's cool that these ACR's are appreciating slightly in value. That's pretty unique for a new car.

However as cool as it is in my specific case it has nothing to do with why I purchased the car. In addition the increase in value of one single car doesn't move the meter much in the overall financial picture. I am guessing that's the case for most of us here? Maybe if we owned 50-100 of them and were hoping for some appreciation before selling them off slowly it would be more meaningful?

[ViperGeorge]

I have a good friend I have helped at the track and we are warehouse neighbors. Pete has told me directly that he avoids Barrett Jackson because of the feeding frenzy and inflated prices. This isn't new. It's happened often at Barrett. There is no logic to the pricing. It's a well marketed TV show.

Pete spends a lot of time looking for additions to his collection. He finds little gems at less publicized auctions and often times privately held collections that have been neglected or passed on through into an Estate sale.

http://www.oldcarsweekly.com/features/dream-catching-couples-carcatcher-museum-is-a-private-palace

It's cool that these ACR's are appreciating slightly in value. That's pretty unique for a new car.

However as cool as it is in my specific case it has nothing to do with why I purchased the car. In addition the increase in value of one single car doesn't move the meter much in the overall financial picture. I am guessing that's the case for most of us here? Maybe if we owned 50-100 of them and were hoping for some appreciation before selling them off slowly it would be more meaningful?

That is some collection! And wow, nicely decorated museum.

[ViperJon]

I'd be thrilled to break even when the time comes to sell never mind some bonus money. That would be a win right there over any previous Viper.

[ACRSNK]

Your idiotic advice to RAISE the price 25K for a car that couldn’t sell at 175K is a perfect example.

I have seen it done and done with success many times. I sold a GN last year that I had for sale for quite a while with no real inquiries to speak of. I raised the price by $7K and the car sold in a week with multiple inquiries. Let me know when you want to sell yours.

[ViperJon]

Even that car is listed at more than original MSRP. Some may say "yea, but it has all those modifications". Problem is that modifications don't usually add any value. And it isn't Yorange, I never liked Yorange. I believe the correct name for the color is Header Orange.

Realistically you could buy that car for probably 150-155K, revert it to back to bone stock and save 60-70K over the BJ one.

[Pappy]

BJ certainly does fire things up. Last night I received 2 PMs (from opposite ends of the country) on the Corvette forum asking if I still had my "driver quality" 62 Corvette that I advertised over a year ago. I think the crazy prices on the resto-mods got that crowd thinking - I can't think of another explanation. I believe the Viper values will stay up a little on their own merit, but I wouldn't consider selling mine. The ACR represents the last of the old school, bruiser mentality that can't be replaced with a twin-turbo V6 on nannies. The thing is a ball to drive, and I don't think the reactions to the car on the street will ever die away.

Pappy

[Policy Limits]

Realistically you could buy that car for probably 150-155K, revert it to back to bone stock and save 60-70K over the BJ one.

Ever see the dark knight series of batman wherein Heath ledger played the joker? He committed all of those robberies only to pile up his half of the money,, pour gasoline over it and light it on fire. Not everything is about money.

[Purple Haze]

Ever see the dark knight series of batman wherein Heath ledger played the joker? He committed all of those robberies only to pile up his half of the money,, pour gasoline over it and light it on fire. Not everything is about money.

Good point...

[serpent]

Ever see the dark knight series of batman wherein Heath ledger played the joker? He committed all of those robberies only to pile up his half of the money,, pour gasoline over it and light it on fire. Not everything is about money.
That’s a fucking movie, it is all about money. People go great lengths to obtain it, and just like the joker rob banks risking their lives to do so. Money never sleeps, this thread alone is basically about money, how much is this viper worth or how much did it sell for.


I wanna know how scott_in_fl feels about the Ford gt selling for 2.5 mil. I know that guy loooves the Ford gt. It’s like the car stole his lunch money or something. LOL

[Policy Limits]

OK another example. Sometimes in the legal industry an insurance defense attorney will be instructed by a client to not pay a 10k claim that is winnable at Trial even if the case will cost 30k to defend. Why pay triple? Perhaps to reinforce a principle or other personal reason.

That NFGT has an interesting buyer. I read his bio on line. Grosses 2 billion annually but is self made. God bless America.

[ViperJon]

Cars sold at BJ's for charity causes have absolutely no relationship with reality. That white 35th anniversary Vette brought in ten times it's worth for the American Heart Association.

[ACRSNK]

OK another example. Sometimes in the legal industry an insurance defense attorney will be instructed by a client to not pay a 10k claim that is winnable at Trial even if the case will cost 30k to defend. Why pay triple? Perhaps to reinforce a principle or other personal reason.

That NFGT has an interesting buyer. I read his bio on line. Grosses 2 billion annually but is self made. God bless America.

Insurance companies do that so as to not open the floodgates for lawsuits from people like you looking for the Policy Limits ;)

[serpent]

That 96 GTS is sad, over 20 years old and only 1500 miles.

[BJG32]

That 96 GTS is sad, over 20 years old and only 1500 miles.


VE has a 98 GTSR with only 200 miles. I think asking is $179k....lol

[ViperGeorge]

Realistically you could buy that car for probably 150-155K, revert it to back to bone stock and save 60-70K over the BJ one.

But MSRP was about 126K give or take some change.

[ViperJon]

VE has a 98 GTSR with only 200 miles. I think asking is $179k....lol

I wouldn’t be surprised if some collector bought it to pair up with a 2017 GTSR. Not at that price though lol.

[ViperSmith]

1 car selling at a high price at an auction and people are already taking $500,000 not soon off.

Lmao.

Hopefully prices hold strong for owners but lord some of you need to get back down to earth.

[commandomatt]

VE has a 98 GTSR with only 200 miles. I think asking is $179k....lol

When someone decides he needs to own that car, that price may not be a big deal.

How many 98' GTSR's with that kind of miles are out there ? This may very well be the only one in the world

Just because the Viper diehards wouldn't consider spending that kind of cash, does not mean a big time car collector would consider it out of reach

[Policy Limits]

Funny how far the crowd has come in five years. From vehicles sitting unsold on dealer lots to special edition cars selling out in hours/days. From depreciation commentary to collection commentary. What a dichotomy. I like 2018 much better than 2013.

[Space Truckin]

Funny how far the crowd has come in five years. I like 2018 much better than 2013.

Can you say "Confidence"...JM2C...I could be wrong...:United_States:

[Policy Limits]

Don't get me wrong, there's still many naysayers (obviously) However, purists (like drummer) are finally on board and the general climate is much more positive imo. I could be wrong but a near 1/4 million dollar hammer price at a collector car auction seems to suggest that things are looking much more positive than negative (for a change) JM2C...I could be wrong too...

[Scott_in_fl]

That’s a fucking movie, it is all about money. People go great lengths to obtain it, and just like the joker rob banks risking their lives to do so. Money never sleeps, this thread alone is basically about money, how much is this viper worth or how much did it sell for.


I wanna know how scott_in_fl feels about the Ford gt selling for 2.5 mil. I know that guy loooves the Ford gt. It’s like the car stole his lunch money or something. LOL

My next sports car is likely an '05-06 FGT, so I love the cars. My gripe with the new one is that it simply not notable. Again, what if it looked like the new NSX? Of course it does not, but are its looks the only reason to like it? Any lap records? Nope. Any monster American motor, with giant hp? Nope. Any connection to American muscle car design/history? Nope. The original FGT tied all of that in, but not the new car.

So, in 5 years, when a 720S or Aventador is selling for $150k, what does a 5-year old NFGT sell for? Why would anyone pay substantially more for one than say a used 720S? From everything we know, the FGT is a mediocre performer. Keep in mind that amazing looking cars are going to be coming hot and heavy from lots of manufacturers.

That person that paid $2.5m must have money to burn because it sure will feel that way in 5 years when he looks at the resale value -- just like the guy that paid $970k for the 2019 ZR1 that will probably be worth $75k in 2024.

[PkB2014]

The Ford GT just set a lightning lap record at VIR beating 918 with a 2:43.0. But Ford made C&D pull the article for some reason. Maybe they want to do a big reveal with multiple records like Dodge did with the Viper.
Someone was kind enough to save it before it was removed.

https://m.imgur.com/a/XxMMx

[serpent]

My next sports car is likely an '05-06 FGT, so I love the cars. My gripe with the new one is that it simply not notable. Again, what if it looked like the new NSX? Of course it does not, but are its looks the only reason to like it? Any lap records? Nope. Any monster American motor, with giant hp? Nope. Any connection to American muscle car design/history? Nope. The original FGT tied all of that in, but not the new car.

So, in 5 years, when a 720S or Aventador is selling for $150k, what does a 5-year old NFGT sell for? Why would anyone pay substantially more for one than say a used 720S? From everything we know, the FGT is a mediocre performer. Keep in mind that amazing looking cars are going to be coming hot and heavy from lots of manufacturers.

That person that paid $2.5m must have money to burn because it sure will feel that way in 5 years when he looks at the resale value -- just like the guy that paid $970k for the 2019 ZR1 that will probably be worth $75k in 2024.
The new nsx while nice is nothing like a NFGT. Yea, they both have a v6 TT and mid engine but thats where the similarities end. Honda cannot sell the nsx, who is going to pay over 150k for an Acura? Ford on the other hand had like 8,000 interested with the funds but is only building what under 1,000?

Kudos to pkb2014, There’s a lap record the NFGT broke, and they only had the car a couple of hours. Usually those tests the C&D magazine has the car for 3 days for their lightning lap comparison.

[ACRSNK]

My next sports car is likely an '05-06 FGT, so I love the cars. My gripe with the new one is that it simply not notable. Again, what if it looked like the new NSX? Of course it does not, but are its looks the only reason to like it? Any lap records? Nope. Any monster American motor, with giant hp? Nope. Any connection to American muscle car design/history? Nope. The original FGT tied all of that in, but not the new car.

So, in 5 years, when a 720S or Aventador is selling for $150k, what does a 5-year old NFGT sell for? Why would anyone pay substantially more for one than say a used 720S? From everything we know, the FGT is a mediocre performer. Keep in mind that amazing looking cars are going to be coming hot and heavy from lots of manufacturers.

That person that paid $2.5m must have money to burn because it sure will feel that way in 5 years when he looks at the resale value -- just like the guy that paid $970k for the 2019 ZR1 that will probably be worth $75k in 2024.

I would argue Ford’s victory at LeMans in the NFGT is something pretty significant. And yes beauty will sell lots of cars.

[Angleiron]

Saw a 1995 RT/10 that was was supercharged with supposedly 800hp go for $30K at BJ yesterday while watching. Completely modded car with twice the HP and torque sold for $30K. DOH!

[Bruce H.]

The real value in these cars is in the driving, whether on road or track. Glad those who don't can at least now fantasize about BJ prices!

But having said that, if you've got an orange TA kicking around that you're not using it might be a good time to give it to BJ for the Palm Springs auction. Maybe this $210,000 sale price will really help you out...and then the rest of us with them in other colors :)

[SharpMan]

So, in 5 years, when a 720S or Aventador is selling for $150k...

That might be a bit optimistic.

[ViperSmith]

My next sports car is likely an '05-06 FGT, so I love the cars. My gripe with the new one is that it simply not notable. Again, what if it looked like the new NSX? Of course it does not, but are its looks the only reason to like it? Any lap records? Nope. Any monster American motor, with giant hp? Nope. Any connection to American muscle car design/history? Nope. The original FGT tied all of that in, but not the new car.

So, in 5 years, when a 720S or Aventador is selling for $150k, what does a 5-year old NFGT sell for? Why would anyone pay substantially more for one than say a used 720S? From everything we know, the FGT is a mediocre performer. Keep in mind that amazing looking cars are going to be coming hot and heavy from lots of manufacturers.

That person that paid $2.5m must have money to burn because it sure will feel that way in 5 years when he looks at the resale value -- just like the guy that paid $970k for the 2019 ZR1 that will probably be worth $75k in 2024.

Uh, it is called a tax write off.

[ViperJon]

Saw a 1995 RT/10 that was was supercharged with supposedly 800hp go for $30K at BJ yesterday while watching. Completely modded car with twice the HP and torque sold for $30K. DOH!

And the '96 with only 1000 miles on it went for shit money too. So much for any real collectability on Blue and Whites 22 years later, that was about as nice as you're going to find.

[Voice of Reason]

Maybe the buyer of these ACRs have other ACRs in storage and they’re trying to pump up the value? Bidding up one like this should pull values higher, but by how much is unknown.

[ACRucrazy]

Maybe the buyer of these ACRs have other ACRs in storage and they’re trying to pump up the value? Bidding up one like this should pull values higher, but by how much is unknown.

I heard Hendrick bought the TA ACR. not sure if it’s true?

[1OF1ACR]

ViperSmith is right. It's a tax write off for these charities. If he grossed $2 billion then he is likely in a 50% tax bracket depending on the state. That means he saved $1.25m in taxes this year, which means he only paid $1.25m for the car. I'm not a CPA, but I own my company and I do the same.

[Scott_in_fl]

Well sort of. The charitable donation is the difference between fair market value and the purchase price. IRS could argue that the two numbers are fairly close, which means the deduction is much more limited than you think. And then the benefit realized is, as you correctly point out, based on that person's marginal tax rate.

So, if car has fair market value of $1m (likely), and car is sold for $2.5m, there is deductible charitable contribution of $1.5m. If he is in a 50% bracket (does that even exist anymore?), then the realized benefit is $750k.

In that example, the buyer then has actually paid something around $1.75m for the car. Again, my prediction is that this will result in mad negative depreciation in 5 years.

But hey, that's not important to some people. I get that.

[Snakebit10]

The Ford GT just set a lightning lap record at VIR beating 918 with a 2:43.0. But Ford made C&D pull the article for some reason. Maybe they want to do a big reveal with multiple records like Dodge did with the Viper.
Someone was kind enough to save it before it was removed.

https://m.imgur.com/a/XxMMx

Hmmmm. I thought the ACR did a 1:41xx or the like at VIR. Maybe it wasn't for the Lightning Lap but I thought I read the ACR had the record at VIR beating both Z06 and 918.

[ViperGeorge]

Funny how far the crowd has come in five years. From vehicles sitting unsold on dealer lots to special edition cars selling out in hours/days. From depreciation commentary to collection commentary. What a dichotomy. I like 2018 much better than 2013.

True but it also goes to show you how crummy a job FCA did on marketing and launching the Viper. They built too many with every option for dealers that just sat there while people that ordered specific cars just waited. Then they sent poorly prepared cars to the magazines for testing. Maybe if they had launched the car properly they wouldn't have ended production in 2017. Seems like interest began to peak when the ACR launched in 2016 and then took off for 2017.

They should have also built a Vert. My understanding (and I may be wrong) is that if they had a Vert they could keep selling it because it wouldn't have to meet the same side impact/side airbag standards that the coupe would have to meet.

[Scott_in_fl]

True but it also goes to show you how crummy a job FCA did on marketing and launching the Viper. They built too many with every option for dealers that just sat there while people that ordered specific cars just waited. Then they sent poorly prepared cars to the magazines for testing. Maybe if they had launched the car properly they wouldn't have ended production in 2017. Seems like interest began to peak when the ACR launched in 2016 and then took off for 2017.

They should have also built a Vert. My understanding (and I may be wrong) is that if they had a Vert they could keep selling it because it wouldn't have to meet the same side impact/side airbag standards that the coupe would have to meet.

Everything happens for a reason and I've recently become of the mind that maybe this was the right way to go out -- on top. We are entering an era that is generally not going to allow cars like the Viper (as we know it and love it) to continue to be built. I've seen what is coming down the pike and none of it is deserving of the Viper badge. Too many transistors, capacitors, and batteries. I think the new cars will be terrific (we're getting a taste of them now), but they will never replicate what the Viper was. I vote for keeping it that way.

[13COBRA]

Hmmmm. I thought the ACR did a 1:41xx or the like at VIR. Maybe it wasn't for the Lightning Lap but I thought I read the ACR had the record at VIR beating both Z06 and 918.

Lightning Lap and open lapping is different.

[ViperGeorge]

Everything happens for a reason and I've recently become of the mind that maybe this was the right way to go out -- on top. We are entering an era that is generally not going to allow cars like the Viper (as we know it and love it) to continue to be built. I've seen what is coming down the pike and none of it is deserving of the Viper badge. Too many transistors, capacitors, and batteries. I think the new cars will be terrific (we're getting a taste of them now), but they will never replicate what the Viper was. I vote for keeping it that way.

I can't say I agree with you. Look at the new Corvette ZR1 just being launched, 750 HP, aero, etc. Look at the Demon, 840HP. Look at the Jeep TrackHawk, 707HP. None of these cars have electric or hybrid drive. Seems to me that there is still plenty of room for a car like the Viper with a manual trans - even without electric or hybrid drive.

[PkB2014]

Hmmmm. I thought the ACR did a 1:41xx or the like at VIR. Maybe it wasn't for the Lightning Lap but I thought I read the ACR had the record at VIR beating both Z06 and 918.

Like folks said above, it was only a few hours Lightning Lap session, not a full lap record attempt. It looks like they finally were allowed to release the video.

https://jalopnik.com/watch-the-ford-gt-crush-a-lap-at-virginia-international-1822294860

[stradman]

Chris Winkler did a 2:40.02 in an ACR at VIR

http://www.gtrlife.com/forums/topic/269370-car-and-driver-2017-gtr-track-edition-vir-lightning-lap/page-2

[ForTehNguyen]

VIR laptimes are quite washy, non pro drivers are used, and not the same drivers. Randy Probst's laptimes are more comparable, same driver, same track.

[ddominator1]

considering .... :rolleyes:

[ViperJon]

considering .... :rolleyes:

I wouldn't get too excited, this ones been for sale for weeks with less than 400 miles on it and thousands of upgrades for 159K.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/723411044/overview/

[ViperGeorge]

I wouldn't get too excited, this ones been for sale for weeks with less than 400 miles on it and thousands of upgrades for 159K.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/723411044/overview/

As I stated above the upgrades don't necessarily add to the value. Many people want the car stock and without worries about the warranty. Now if you happen to want those upgrades then you can actually get a good deal on a modded car. Bill Pemberton will tell you the same thing.

[ACR Steve]

Why is the write off only 50%? the way I look at it the check is payable to the charity you get the full write off not 50%?

If you give that much to charity anyway why not get a car for free. By the way Ron Pratt donated the car to charity so in NY at least you get to write off the price that the charity sells the donated car at . So Ron made out with a great write off on a car that might have cost him $500,000 or so.

[ViperDC]

1 car selling at a high price at an auction and people are already taking $500,000 not soon off.

Lmao.

Hopefully prices hold strong for owners but lord some of you need to get back down to earth.

This. A red '94 gen 1 with 10k miles on it (aka anything but rare) brought $50k! Fifty grand for that car? Lmao

The prices this weekend, especially on American stuff, were nuts. Neat that they brought a strong number but this sort of thing isnt uncommon at all at BJ and it isnt the barometer going forward either. The usual suspects that are new to this sort of thing are excited though...

[ViperDC]

My next sports car is likely an '05-06 FGT, so I love the cars. My gripe with the new one is that it simply not notable. Again, what if it looked like the new NSX? Of course it does not, but are its looks the only reason to like it? Any lap records? Nope. Any monster American motor, with giant hp? Nope. Any connection to American muscle car design/history? Nope. The original FGT tied all of that in, but not the new car.

So, in 5 years, when a 720S or Aventador is selling for $150k, what does a 5-year old NFGT sell for? Why would anyone pay substantially more for one than say a used 720S? From everything we know, the FGT is a mediocre performer. Keep in mind that amazing looking cars are going to be coming hot and heavy from lots of manufacturers.

That person that paid $2.5m must have money to burn because it sure will feel that way in 5 years when he looks at the resale value -- just like the guy that paid $970k for the 2019 ZR1 that will probably be worth $75k in 2024.

Just had to quote you saying the new Ford GT is a "mediocre performer." LOL.

As for something unique the car has done, it went and won LeMans and has actual racing pedigree which the 05-06 lacked

Also lol at reducing the price paid on the Ford GT to "more money than brians" yet flip out and consider the liquored up prices on these Vipers to be the new standard. Great logic

[harley56]

Why is the write off only 50%? the way I look at it the check is payable to the charity you get the full write off not 50%?

If you give that much to charity anyway why not get a car for free. By the way Ron Pratt donated the car to charity so in NY at least you get to write off the price that the charity sells the donated car at . So Ron made out with a great write off on a car that might have cost him $500,000 or so.

The write off is 100%. You realize a tax savings based on your tax bracket. $100k donation reduces your taxable income by $100K. Assuming you are in a 50% tax bracket, you then reduce your taxes by 50%, or $50K. Not an accountant, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Policy Limits]

Here's some information on the seller: https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20171222005448/en/

[Scott_in_fl]

Just had to quote you saying the new Ford GT is a "mediocre performer." LOL.

As for something unique the car has done, it went and won LeMans and has actual racing pedigree which the 05-06 lacked

Also lol at reducing the price paid on the Ford GT to "more money than brians" yet flip out and consider the liquored up prices on these Vipers to be the new standard. Great logic

You need some facts. Can the NFGT outperform any of the current 2018/19 cars? The new Performante? No. The 720S? No. The GT2RS? No. The Acura NSX? Maybe. The new ZR1? Probably not.

I have no doubt that the fashion pants buyers will continue to yearn for what is admittedly an amazing looking car. In 5 years, it may very well still be a $500k car because of that type of buyer. But not to me. I buy performance and character/emotion first and foremost. I'd take the first three on that above list before the NFGT.

As for ACR-E, its value upside is also due to the fact that it was so underpriced from the MFG (unlike the FGT, which was so overpriced). ACR-E has plenty of upside room to move, especially given its very low production and ass-kicking performance.

Stop burying your head in the sand. The price appreciation is real.

[Murpowa]

You need some facts. Can the NFGT outperform any of the current 2018/19 cars? The new Performante? No. The 720S? No. The GT2RS? No. The Acura NSX? Maybe. The new ZR1? Probably not.

I have no doubt that the fashion pants buyers will continue to yearn for what is admittedly an amazing looking car. In 5 years, it may very well still be a $500k car because of that type of buyer. But not to me. I buy performance and character/emotion first and foremost. I'd take the first three on that above list before the NFGT.

As for ACR-E, its value upside is also due to the fact that it was so underpriced from the MFG (unlike the FGT, which was so overpriced). ACR-E has plenty of upside room to move, especially given its very low production and ass-kicking performance.

Stop burying your head in the sand. The price appreciation is real.

Great, that is YOUR taste not necessarily everyone else's RE: Ford GT

As far as the ACR being 'underpriced' from the manufacturer, you consider cost of goods, build quality, demographic of buyer, etc compared to other brands? Pretty vague statement to make imo.

[Scott_in_fl]

Lambo, McLaren, Ferrari, Porsche, all sell the same car for $300k. Almost twice the price from an American manufacturer, for a car that does not seem to be able to match the others? Seems overpriced to me. Yes, that is my opinion only.

[13COBRA]

Lambo, McLaren, Ferrari, Porsche, all sell the same car for $300k. Almost twice the price from an American manufacturer, for a car that does not seem to be able to match the others? Seems overpriced to me. Yes, that is my opinion only.

Do you also agree the 05/06 are selling for overpriced prices?

[ddominator1]

couldn't agree with you more George!! I would just love to see one go at Palm beach to put everyone to rest.. seriously! Still haters out there man..
As I stated above the upgrades don't necessarily add to the value. Many people want the car stock and without worries about the warranty. Now if you happen to want those upgrades then you can actually get a good deal on a modded car. Bill Pemberton will tell you the same thing.

[ddominator1]

an newer model "upgraded" car and a "stock" car w very low miles are 2 different animals in the collector world...
I wouldn't get too excited, this ones been for sale for weeks with less than 400 miles on it and thousands of upgrades for 159K.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/723411044/overview/

[Scott_in_fl]

Do you also agree the 05/06 are selling for overpriced prices?

'05-'06 was a unique car at the time of its production for many reasons. It remains unmatched in several aspects (rear engine American car, natural aspirated V-8, a true modern era replica of the original GT40 at the time, etc.). It is collectible because nothing was ever made quite like, and never will. I think they are correctly priced at current levels but also expect them to continue to increase from here. If you can catch a deal, you should buy one.

[13COBRA]

'05-'06 was a unique car at the time of its production for many reasons. It remains unmatched in several aspects (rear engine American car, natural aspirated V-8, a true modern era replica of the original GT40 at the time, etc.). It is collectible because nothing was ever made quite like, and never will. I think they are correctly priced at current levels but also expect them to continue to increase from here. If you can catch a deal, you should buy one.

Natural Aspirated, eh? Is that what you call it when there is a super charger mounted on top of it? I must be behind in the times.

The 2005/06 had 0 racing pedigree, while the 17+ has history.

With the 05/06's regularly selling for $300k+, I see no reason that the 17 shouldn't be $500k or so.

My dad has had three of them. Sold his last one a few months ago.

[Scott_in_fl]

My mistake, not naturally aspirated. But if your dad has had three, then he will tell you the car was unique among anything else built by an American mfg at the time (or since).

The '17 is clearly valued by enough people at $500k and higher that it has sold out. I also think we see some sizeable increases when the first cars get past the 24 month lock up period and are offered for sale. Also, there will be fashion pants buyers even further out, and because the production numbers will remain low, prices could stay up. I just don't buy into the collectability hypothesis myself. A performance car is not collectible merely because it is pretty. We're not talking about Impalas or Cadillac DeVille's. This was built as a racecar to beat the world. It went to LeMans and pulled a victory only because of the BoP rules that artificially hampered everything else on the grid. If you beat Floyd Mayweather because he had 1 arm tied behind his back (and we all would likely still lose), are you the best ever? No. If you look back at collectible performance cars, they generally set the world on fire when they were released. They were notable for many reasons, performance being a very important factor. So it's not a collectible car to me. It may be to you.

[LABrit]

Fucking hell Scott give it a rest already on the value BS!

I proved with my listing on eBay that there's not a real buyer out there at these prices - my car was bid up to $155k which was 20k shy of the reserve i placed on it.

[13COBRA]

Lol

[ViperJon]

These dreamers aren't going to like you throwing real world cold water on their retirement funds LaBrit....:)

[LABrit]

These dreamers aren't going to like you throwing real world cold water on their retirement funds LaBrit....:)

lol - he's a nice guy but like that moron Policylimits, he is obsessed with the value.

I couldn't care less whether it appreciates or drops like a rock and that's the way it should be. It's a car, not an investment. The value will always be what someone is willing to pay and a buyer will have a price in mind as does a seller. My mind is at 175k or i'll keep it and that's that with me. At the BJ auctions which is all hype a couple Vipers hit big money. At lesser auctions they get real world prices. On eBay my car didn't sell. I had a big Viper dealer message me after the auction implying they can net me 175k on consignment but i can't be assed with all that.

[swexlin]

Fucking hell Scott give it a rest already on the value BS!

I proved with my listing on eBay that there's not a real buyer out there at these prices - my car was bid up to $155k which was 20k shy of the reserve i placed on it.

LOL, love it!

[Policy Limits]

Labrit only has a 2016 model year. This discussion is relevant to 2017 ACR cars that are special edition and that are numbered. Talk about moronic...

Most of us owners whom drop six figs on a toy car that gets driven once or twice per month are already millionaires and aren't sweating car value especially if the car will never be sold. However, that doesn't negate the fact that appreciation on 2017 ACR special edition cars is no longer a matter of opinion; Rather, it's now a matter of fact, like it or not.

[Scott_in_fl]

you guys with your panties in a snit, do you realize that we're not even talking about Dodge Vipers?

The man asked me a question about Ford GT's. I answered him. Some of you need to spend some time with your wives.

Don't ask me a question about the value of x car, and get upset when I give you the courtesy of a reply..

[Policy Limits]

It's hysterical. Reminds me of a meme I saw of a peanuts character depicted angry and yelling "damn you trump and your booming economy. " The angry should donate 100% of their dividends in protest. And anyone upset that their car is worth more than they've paid should likewise sell for a loss in protest. So odd.

[Bruce H.]

I'm still trying to get my head around the wisdom of largely basing every appreciating-value discussion on the FGT when that car's appreciation is such a known anomaly over the last many years just seems stillborn. Using that one very abnormal data point isn't predictive, it's wishful thinking. Further hinging it on the Viper being normally aspirated like the FGT is a stretch also...oh wait, scratch that!

I still think a number of Vipers will do very well over time, but constantly insisting that it will is just a tiring and increasingly annoying opinion. Time to give it a rest.

[13COBRA]

Reminds me of all the Corvette guys that have 'pace cars' haha

[ViperDC]

You need some facts. Can the NFGT outperform any of the current 2018/19 cars? The new Performante? No. The 720S? No. The GT2RS? No. The Acura NSX? Maybe. The new ZR1? Probably not.

I haven't even seen it compared with any of these cars head to head. What makes you think it can't? Also you are seriously "not sure" it can beat a new NSX? Dude I'll have what you're smoking

Like I said, you're new to Vipers and don't really understand the market on them but that is OK. I'm glad you love your car.