Gen IV's over 600rwhp

[Wheelman]

How many have one of these?

Tough to accomplish, or typical power expected with the current available bolt ons?

Ported intake or gen V intake
Mopar PCM
Headers
High flow cats
Catback
Ummmmmm...?

[FLATOUT]

With the ported intake I don't thinks it's too hard to accomplish. I am fitting a Gen V intake to my car this week, adding a Mopar PCM, and Smooth tubes to an otherwise bone stock 08 ACR. I am doing before and after dyno's so we'll see how much we can pick up with just that combo, but the big gains are on the exhaust side. With now cat's it shouldn't be difficult at all.

[mjorgensen]

359

Ported intake, PCM, Belangers and Corsa. Wish I had more RPM ;-)

[FLATOUT]

Mark was that with or without cats?

[mjorgensen]

Mark was that with or without cats?

With cats, I have never liked the feel without cats regardless of what others feel is the best.

[FLATOUT]

With cats, I have never liked the feel without cats regardless of what others feel is the best.

That's what I was hoping to hear. I have run them both ways and was hoping I could still see 600 and retain cats on the car.

Thanks :)

[Wheelman]

Mark, I bet you can squeeze a bit more from a gen V intake as well.

That is encouraging. Was thinking about a basic TT Gen 2 for my next viper. However, the IVs are looking promising. If/when tuning is an option, they may be able to get 700+rwhp, which will really help bridge the gap to a small turbo gen 2 build.

My 06 was a bit slow for me, haha, but for someone not needing 1000+hp, this may be a good option. (Not a fan of Paxtons or how they perform) also seems like a much simpler solution than a heads/cam gen 3.

[mjorgensen]

Mark, I bet you can squeeze a bit more from a gen V intake as well.

That is encouraging. Was thinking about a basic TT Gen 2 for my next viper. However, the IVs are looking promising. If/when tuning is an option, they may be able to get 700+rwhp, which will really help bridge the gap to a small turbo gen 2 build.

My 06 was a bit slow for me, haha, but for someone not needing 1000+hp, this may be a good option. (Not a fan of Paxtons or how they perform) also seems like a much simpler solution than a heads/cam gen 3.

My intake was the development one Arrow did for Winkles car originally so it was tested over and over till it made the absolute most power so other then the heat factor I think it and a GenV intake would be close although the individual runners would better balance the airflow.

Not sure the fuel system would support 700+whp although there are others on here that would know more about that then I do.

[FLATOUT]

I have a Gen V intake going on my car by the end of this week, and will get it on the dyno Nov 10th. Nothing done on the exhaust side yet but we should get a good idea of what it makes with the addition of a Mopar ECU to a stock Gen 4.

[Viper Specialty]

Have no fear... we are actively working on bridging the Gen-4 market gap. We will have tunable ECU options, Paxton kits, and will also be working on adjustable Camshaft configuration for the N/A guys. Most everything is already designed, just waiting to get it into production form. Lots coming in the next year!

[FLATOUT]

Awesome Dan!

[Steve M]

Definitely interested in the Gen 5 intake results...

[ACRucrazy]

If anyone is interested I have a Gen V intake and Gen IV lower intake half FS over on the alley. :)

[FLATOUT]

Definitely interested in the Gen 5 intake results...

I'll have it dyno'd by next Sunday (Nov 10). I am putting together an install document as well to do the swap. It's not completely plug and play, but something 99% of owners should be able to accomplish on their own.

Andy

[SNKBYT]

M y 09 ACR is making 609 RWHP, 580 torque. Mods are: Belanger headers, hi flow cats, Mopar computer. Thanks Mark (woodhouse). Smooth tubes, K&N filter, Arrow polished/ported intake. Would love to due a tune and pick up another 50hp and torque!

[Shooter]

M y 09 ACR is making 609 RWHP, 580 torque. Mods are: Belanger headers, hi flow cats, Mopar computer. Thanks Mark (woodhouse). Smooth tubes, K&N filter, Arrow polished/ported intake. Would love to due a tune and pick up another 50hp and torque!

Thanks for posting. I was hoping I could get there w/o the header's. We'll see.

[FLATOUT]

Thanks for posting. I was hoping I could get there w/o the header's. We'll see.

I have a feeling we'll get to 580-590 without headers but doubt well get over 600 without a real hand held programmer like an SCT tuner to really optimize each car for that last 10-15rwhp.

[Shooter]

I have a feeling we'll get to 580-590 without headers but doubt well get over 600 without a real hand held programmer like an SCT tuner to really optimize each car for that last 10-15rwhp.

I thought the Gen IV SCT tuner has all but been shot down?.
I'm sure as heck not going to spend $5k+ for whatever anybody else is talking about designing so that I can tune for a lousy 20 hp.

[V10LEE]

If anyone is interested I have a Gen V intake and Gen IV lower intake half FS over on the alley. :)

Yes I saw that. Just curious what made you change your mind on the Gen V intake?

[Troublemaker]

If anyone is interested I have a Gen V intake and Gen IV lower intake half FS over on the alley. :)

If I knew a Gen4 top end was definitely the way I was going, I would grab that Gen5 intake from you right now, but options are still being explored to get a little more air through my anemic 8.0L.

[FLATOUT]

I thought the Gen IV SCT tuner has all but been shot down?.
I'm sure as heck not going to spend $5k+ for whatever anybody else is talking about designing so that I can tune for a lousy 20 hp.

I'm almost certainl at this point that SCT will have something sooner than later for the gen 4 vipers. We'll know a lot more after SEMA.

And I'll start getting some pictures soon on the Gen V manifold going on. I'm pulling the stocker off as we speak.

[Shooter]

I'm almost certainl at this point that SCT will have something sooner than later for the gen 4 vipers. We'll know a lot more after SEMA.

And I'll start getting some pictures soon on the Gen V manifold going on. I'm pulling the stocker off as we speak.

I hope so dude.


Good, you'll be an expert when I get to mine. :)

[slitherv10]

M y 09 ACR is making 609 RWHP, 580 torque. Mods are: Belanger headers, hi flow cats, Mopar computer. Thanks Mark (woodhouse). Smooth tubes, K&N filter, Arrow polished/ported intake. Would love to due a tune and pick up another 50hp and torque!


You got 150 crank HP with those mods?....WOW...didn't think it could be done unless you did heads or cam etc.

[Wheelman]

You got 150 crank HP with those mods?....WOW...didn't think it could be done unless you did heads or cam etc.

I'd say more like 100 crank hp gain. Maybe slightly less.

Looks like a ported intake, or a gen V intake is adding a big chunk? 30+hp?

[slitherv10]

I'd say more like 100 crank hp gain. Maybe slightly less.

Looks like a ported intake, or a gen V intake is adding a big chunk? 30+hp?


Well, to get 609 RWHP you would have to be pushing around 715-720 at the crank. With around 30 coming from the ported intake, how do the other mods break down in RWHP to get to 609 RWHP?...Seems like too much really. Just asking. not an expert at all but, im sure someone who knows more than I can explain it to me.

[FLATOUT]

Well, to get 609 RWHP you would have to be pushing around 715-720 at the crank. With around 30 coming from the ported intake, how do the other mods break down in RWHP to get to 609 RWHP?...Seems like too much really. Just asking. not an expert at all but, im sure someone who knows more than I can explain it to me.

Well my car just dyno'd 566rwhp bone stock so I only need to pick up 34rwhp to hit 600rwhp.

[slitherv10]

Well my car just dyno'd 566rwhp bone stock so I only need to pick up 34rwhp to hit 600rwhp.

I'm confused...correct me if I'm wrong....stock Gen VI runs 600 crank horses minus about a 13-15% drop in driveline would net you at 14% average drop, 516 RWHP no?

[Viper Specialty]

I'm confused...correct me if I'm wrong....stock Gen VI runs 600 crank horses minus about a 13-15% drop in driveline would net you at 14% average drop, 516 RWHP no?

Gen-4 engines are pretty severely under-rated. 540-550RW is typical Gen-4

[Dan Cragin]

On our Dynojet 224 and Dynapack dyno the Gen 4 would come in at 520 and 540rwhp. We did 25 cars with our ported manifold, ported heads, ARH or Belanger headers and Mopar controller. RWHP gains 80-90hp. With a rocker ratio change and higher compression on the track cars 100-120rwhp was made. With an aftermarket controller and the same package, peak hp remained the same but power under the curve went way up.

With a non-VVT cam, higher compression and aftermarket controller this engine is good for 700plus rwhp.

[FLATOUT]

Thanks for the info Dan.

[slitherv10]

On our Dynojet 224 and Dynapack dyno the Gen 4 would come in at 520 and 540rwhp. We did 25 cars with our ported manifold, ported heads, ARH or Belanger headers and Mopar controller. RWHP gains 80-90hp. With a rocker ratio change and higher compression on the track cars 100-120rwhp was made. With an aftermarket controller and the same package, peak hp remained the same but power under the curve went way up.

With a non-VVT cam, higher compression and aftermarket controller this engine is good for 700plus rwhp.


Well there I have it. You learn something new every day. Thanks Dan !

[ACRucrazy]

Yes I saw that. Just curious what made you change your mind on the Gen V intake?

Nothing. I have 2 lol, well had. 1 sold.

Can't wait to see Andy's write up and results. My car is almost put away for the winter so it will be 6-7 months before it hits the dyno/road again :(

Almost time to start wrenchin with the pile of parts I collected over the summer. This stock crap is for the birds.

[V10LEE]

Nothing. I have 2 lol, well had. 1 sold.

Can't wait to see Andy's write up and results. My car is almost put away for the winter so it will be 6-7 months before it hits the dyno/road again :(

Almost time to start wrenchin with the pile of parts I collected over the summer. This stock crap is for the birds.

Ok cool. Yeah I'm looking forward to Andy's,and Shooter's results too..;)

[Bill Pemberton]

You can't go wrong with info from Dan or Mark J. I know that with ACR-X headers, polished intake and MoPar PCM ( which Mark and crew did on many Gen IVs) my ACR is strong enough to stay even with almost any Viper on the track in the straights. Definitely a worthwhile addition for a reasonable sum, and easy to feel by the seat of your pants. Not a difficult upgrade and a proven way to get more usable power out of the 8.4!

[Shooter]

Ok cool. Yeah I'm looking forward to Andy's,and Shooter's results too..;)

I'm looking forward to getting home and get caught up. Going to see how much HP I can get without throwing a light. Really like to do this w/o needing the mopar controller right now.

[FLATOUT]

That's another interesting comparo actually. I went ahead and installed a Mopar Race ECU last week to go with the new Manifold (Thanks ACRucrazy), and we are going to install Shooters without the ECU to see if it has to have one to make the manifold work. We don't think it actually needs it but we'll be able to tell the differences between the two cars.

My 2013 PCV line arrived at Tomball Dodge today so I will get it picked up on the way home and get everything buttoned up late tonight. I'll try to get it fired up and driven over the next two days and get the install Dock written up soon with the dyno graphs added after this weekend.

Andy



Nothing. I have 2 lol, well had. 1 sold.

Can't wait to see Andy's write up and results. My car is almost put away for the winter so it will be 6-7 months before it hits the dyno/road again :(

Almost time to start wrenchin with the pile of parts I collected over the summer. This stock crap is for the birds.


Ok cool. Yeah I'm looking forward to Andy's,and Shooter's results too..;)


I'm looking forward to getting home and get caught up. Going to see how much HP I can get without throwing a light. Really like to do this w/o needing the mopar controller right now.

[JGK95]

*subscribed!*

[slitherv10]

*subscribed!*


What he said ^^^^^^^^

[Shooter]

That's another interesting comparo actually. I went ahead and installed a Mopar Race ECU last week to go with the new Manifold (Thanks ACRucrazy), and we are going to install Shooters without the ECU to see if it has to have one to make the manifold work. We don't think it actually needs it but we'll be able to tell the differences between the two cars.



Andy

It should be interesting Andy. When I asked Morgan, he thought that maybe all it will need is an "idle reset" to learn the new idle flow. If it works, I'll swap the stock filter for the K & N filter I have still in it's wrapper, then go with high flow cats and a Corsa track exhaust. If not, well then I guess I'll have to spend a grand on that friggen mopar pcm :(

[ACRucrazy]

I enjoyed the Mopar PCM when I had one in my car. I thought it was an improvement in the way the car responded.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

I'm almost certainl at this point that SCT will have something sooner than later for the gen 4 vipers. We'll know a lot more after SEMA.

And I'll start getting some pictures soon on the Gen V manifold going on. I'm pulling the stocker off as we speak.

FLATOUT - Are you using the stock GENV manifold torque limiters and machining the heads or are you removing these? Looking forward to installation details and results as I have a GenV manifold in waiting...

[Wheelman]

With a non-VVT cam, higher compression and aftermarket controller this engine is good for 700plus rwhp.

Interesting idea. Wondering if the "upcoming" SCT release would allow the cam to be replaced by, say, a Roe one? Wouldn't this essentially revert the gen 4 back to a gen 3?

[FLATOUT]

FLATOUT - Are you using the stock GENV manifold torque limiters and machining the heads or are you removing these? Looking forward to installation details and results as I have a GenV manifold in waiting...

You can remove the torque limiters with a punch and a hammer as they are press fit. I lightly tapped on them to unseat them. I removed them and trimmed them to the length necessary for the manifold to sit flush.

[FLATOUT]

I got my manifold on tonight and I also had to cut and fab the 2013 PCV line to fit the 08 valve cover mounting position. I will be adding a catch can and doing away with the factory PCV setup but I still did this so people could see how to use the factory setup.

I will be adding a picture or two tonight and an install doc after I have time to put some miles on it this week.

I ask that none of you post any of the photos or install instructions on the VCA. if they want to see it they can come over here or do the work themselves.

[FLATOUT]

Well here's the first two photos after the install:

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n133/ZOSICK/GenVintake2copy_zps0e358f86.jpg (http://s111.photobucket.com/user/ZOSICK/media/GenVintake2copy_zps0e358f86.jpg.html)

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n133/ZOSICK/GenVIntakecopy_zps1cb27989.jpg (http://s111.photobucket.com/user/ZOSICK/media/GenVIntakecopy_zps1cb27989.jpg.html)

[ACRucrazy]

Where did you get the silicone couplers?

[FLATOUT]

Where did you get the silicone couplers?

Keith (Hyph) at RSI. Jon B also carries them in a package with the K&N air filter. You just need a 3 1/2 reduced to 3 1/4 coupler cut to the correct length.

[Shooter]

Looks good dude!

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Thanks for your pics and the information. The manifold looks great IMO. Can't wait to get it on my car.

What catch can are you going with? I'm going to try to do that at the same time as well...

[FLATOUT]

Thanks for your pics and the information. The manifold looks great IMO. Can't wait to get it on my car.

What catch can are you going with? I'm going to try to do that at the same time as well...

I have an ACRX catch can locally that I might use, but the more I think about it a non vented can makes more sense for me since I drive the car on the street and track. I talked to a few guys with the ACRX catch can and they did say that the oil vapors over time can be a bit much for a street car. Cody Whitehead at Whitehead Motorsports is designing something new right now that should be done next week that I will most likely use.

Dan Cragin also has a nice Moroso unit that looks great and is a sealed system.

You will notice that not much oil is in front of the throttle blades from the drivers side vent tube going into the center of the airbox so an inline seperator between the passenger valve cover and the base of the manifold will take care of 90% of the problem.

[MtnBiker]

I am not certain what power my car is making, but it is definitely more than stock. I installed Belanger headers and exhaust, Mopar PCM, and had internals upgraded to forged including ACR-X lifters. It's a beast!

[Steve M]

Definitely can't wait to see the results...

[ACRucrazy]

So how many miles did you put on the beast today?

[SSGNRDZ_28]

I have an ACRX catch can locally that I might use, but the more I think about it a non vented can makes more sense for me since I drive the car on the street and track. I talked to a few guys with the ACRX catch can and they did say that the oil vapors over time can be a bit much for a street car. Cody Whitehead at Whitehead Motorsports is designing something new right now that should be done next week that I will most likely use.

Dan Cragin also has a nice Moroso unit that looks great and is a sealed system.

You will notice that not much oil is in front of the throttle blades from the drivers side vent tube going into the center of the airbox so an inline seperator between the passenger valve cover and the base of the manifold will take care of 90% of the problem.


Great, keep us updated. Looking forward to details and installed pics of the Whitehead Motorsports catch can solution or others...

[Steve M]

I'll see if I can snap a few pics of my Rx catch can setup...it'll at least give you another idea.

[FLATOUT]

So how many miles did you put on the beast today?

0 :( Man I was all ready to get home but had a family emergency, and had to head to the Houston Medical center. Everybody's fine but car stuff became very unimportant all of a sudden. Should get some time with it on Thursday.


Great, keep us updated. Looking forward to details and installed pics of the Whitehead Motorsports catch can solution or others...

Will do Cody said he might have something next week for us to look at but I know he's working on another project right now as well.


I'll see if I can snap a few pics of my Rx catch can setup...it'll at least give you another idea.

Interested in seeing your setup.

[MtnBiker]

I enjoyed the Mopar PCM when I had one in my car. I thought it was an improvement in the way the car responded.

Absolutely. Gets rid of the horrible throttle lag on the Gen IV (and the skip shift). Unfortunatley reduces the backfire on decel, but still gives a very nast loud pop when shifting above 5000RPMs. I won't go back.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

I'll see if I can snap a few pics of my Rx catch can setup...it'll at least give you another idea.

That would be great, Steve. Looking forward to it.

[virginiavenom]

wow. I love the looks at a minimum of the Gen V intake, sounds like it's a pretty straight forward upgrade. can't wait to see the dyno graph comparison if you can post both sir.

[FLATOUT]

wow. I love the looks at a minimum of the Gen V intake, sounds like it's a pretty straight forward upgrade. can't wait to see the dyno graph comparison if you can post both sir.

Will do, finally got to put a couple miles on it this morning, and then got it home and retorqued everything. I think I will have Tomball do a throttle body relearn on it though as it seemed to be just a little inconsistant on the brief drive. Not uncommon and probably something we will want to do after doing this mod anyways.

Andy

[donk_316]

Flatout, is today dyno day? Im excited to see the results of this. Thanks.

Also, any chance a G5 ECU would bolt into and work in a G4?
Seems its tuned a little differently? Maybe the G4 ECU can be reflashed with a G5 factory flash?

Or is it truly just exhaust, cam timing and intake manifold that accounted for the 40hp bump in the G5?

[FLATOUT]

Yes it's hitting the rollers today. Not sure if a gen V ECU would work, I wouldn't think it would and it this point with the problems they've had I wouldn't want one. We still have the mopar race ECU so we can pick up some power with that.

[TexasTonka]

Looks like a very cool mod. Looking forward to the results.

[ACRucrazy]

Flatout, is today dyno day? Im excited to see the results of this. Thanks.

Also, any chance a G5 ECU would bolt into and work in a G4?
Seems its tuned a little differently? Maybe the G4 ECU can be reflashed with a G5 factory flash?

Or is it truly just exhaust, cam timing and intake manifold that accounted for the 40hp bump in the G5?

Exhaust, cam, intake manifold, ACR-X clutch/flywheel (15 pounds lighter IIRC)
But also since the Gen V has a different trans and 3.55 gears, others have said 3.55 gears rob WHP vs 3.07 in the gen IV.

[Viper Specialty]

Also, any chance a G5 ECU would bolt into and work in a G4?
Seems its tuned a little differently? Maybe the G4 ECU can be reflashed with a G5 factory flash?


Absolutely not. The Bus coding of the Gen-5 is surely different than the Gen-4.

Cross-flashing ECU's will not be possible, they use different processors in those two VENOM controllers.

[FLATOUT]

Ok a quick update before I add the dyno graphs and video later.

The car made 570.35 RWHP 552.57 TQ SAE corrected. Uncorrected it made 586RWHP.

My car has a completely stock exhaust manifold to tip. Only mods on the car are, K&N panel filter, Smooth tubes from RSI, Mopar race ECU, and a 2013 intake manifold.

Although I thought the peak numbers would be in the 580rwhp range corrected the car picked up 30RWHP through the mid range over a 2008 car with ROE high flow cats that was also on the dyno. I had them overlay the two graphs so we could take a look at them and compare. The car with high flow cats was stock other than that all the way to the paper filter.

Uploading the graphs now.

[FLATOUT]

Here's my graph overlayed another gen 4 which had high flow cats.

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n133/ZOSICK/DynoOverlay_zpscc7b1783.jpg (http://s111.photobucket.com/user/ZOSICK/media/DynoOverlay_zpscc7b1783.jpg.html)

[slitherv10]

On our Dynojet 224 and Dynapack dyno the Gen 4 would come in at 520 and 540rwhp. We did 25 cars with our ported manifold, ported heads, ARH or Belanger headers and Mopar controller. RWHP gains 80-90hp. With a rocker ratio change and higher compression on the track cars 100-120rwhp was made. With an aftermarket controller and the same package, peak hp remained the same but power under the curve went way up.

With a non-VVT cam, higher compression and aftermarket controller this engine is good for 700plus rwhp.


Gen-4 engines are pretty severely under-rated. 540-550RW is typical Gen-4


As per the numbers above from two respected builders. The 2 Dan's. For you to only gain a mere 20-30 HP after all those mods and a GEN 5 intake swap, it doesn't say much to be honest. Not worth the money to swap and all those mods for such small gains. Just my opinion really. I would be more inclined to go Dan Cragins way and get 80-90 HP and even 100+ with the Non-VVT cam and Higher compression.

Am I reading this correctly or am I confused and need to give my head a shake?

[FLATOUT]

Was this reply directed to me? Maybe you didn't read what Dan posted, or what mod I installed and dyno'd . Dan quoted his gains with ported head, headers, high flow cats, catback, and a ported gen 4 manifold.

All I added was a gen V intake manifold. The Mopar race ECU doesn't usually add much peak power but definitely helps with power under the curve.

So basically with just an intake swap I gained 17RWHP and 27ftlbs of torque, dropped 12lbs, and have a manifold that won't heat soak nearly as bad while on the road coarse.

Maybe you thought I did a lot more than I did but I literally just swapped manifolds.



As per the numbers above from two respected builders. The 2 Dan's. For you to only gain a mere 20-30 HP after all those mods and a GEN 5 intake swap, it doesn't say much to be honest. Not worth the money to swap and all those mods for such small gains. Just my opinion really. I would be more inclined to go Dan Cragins way and get 80-90 HP and even 100+ with the Non-VVT cam and Higher compression.

Am I reading this correctly or am I confused and need to give my head a shake?

[Troublemaker]

Those are some very nice gains. I didn't read the entire thread, but was you Gen4 intake ported? I wish somebody could figure out how to make these fit an 8.0.

[FLATOUT]

Those are some very nice gains. I didn't read the entire thread, but was you Gen4 intake ported? I wish somebody could figure out how to make these fit an 8.0.

No bone stock Gen 4 manifold. A ported gen 4 might make a couple more than the stock gen V manifold as far as peak numbers, but it does weigh a little more and will retain more heat.

[Troublemaker]

No arguing the weight and heat. Those are worth it alone, 27ftlbs of torque is even better. It's hard to read on the graph, did the peak shift at all? Pretty stout motor under the curve, nice job.

[FLATOUT]

4300-5300 is where it really gains the most. It consistently made more from the hit all the way to red line but the meat of the gain is right where it matters.

Peak didn't shift as far as I could tell. My graph is overlayed a gen 4 with roe high flow cats. Not sure how much those are worth but even if that's a 5 HP gain (conservative) than the Gen V unproved manifold is worth 20rwhp and 30ftlbs of torque.

[ACRucrazy]

Now to toss these on your car..

http://gallery.viperclub.org/data/500/medium/BBG_GTS-R_2.JPG

[slitherv10]

On our Dynojet 224 and Dynapack dyno the Gen 4 would come in at 520 and 540rwhp. We did 25 cars with our ported manifold, ported heads, ARH or Belanger headers and Mopar controller. RWHP gains 80-90hp. With a rocker ratio change and higher compression on the track cars 100-120rwhp was made. With an aftermarket controller and the same package, peak hp remained the same but power under the curve went way up.

With a non-VVT cam, higher compression and aftermarket controller this engine is good for 700plus rwhp.


Gen-4 engines are pretty severely under-rated. 540-550RW is typical Gen-4


Was this reply directed to me? Maybe you didn't read what Dan posted, or what mod I installed and dyno'd . Dan quoted his gains with ported head, headers, high flow cats, catback, and a ported gen 4 manifold.

All I added was a gen V intake manifold. The Mopar race ECU doesn't usually add much peak power but definitely helps with power under the curve.

So basically with just an intake swap I gained 17RWHP and 27ftlbs of torque, dropped 12lbs, and have a manifold that won't heat soak nearly as bad while on the road coarse.

Maybe you thought I did a lot more than I did but I literally just swapped manifolds.

My Bad !? I apologize. I didn't take into account the extra mods. I skimmed through the post. Yes I totally agree with the gains. Makes a lot of sense considering the 1000 dollar swap for 20Hp gains. Good job. I will read into the posts a little more literately than physically. Looking forward to the end results.

Keep up the good work. I am following this closely because I too want to add HP gains without losing reliability. TT Gen 2's and full blown out motor installs usually spell trouble and constant tweeking and tampering.. Sometimes, not all the time. I too am interested in getting 80-100K miles on my build and not every 30K. I am a driver and those mods leave me vulnerable and in my mechanics shop more than I would like.

[FLATOUT]

No problem, it's just another option out there for guys looking to do something. We'll see what the car makes once I get an exhaust on the car.



My Bad !? I apologize. I didn't take into account the extra mods. I skimmed through the post. Yes I totally agree with the gains. Makes a lot of sense considering the 1000 dollar swap for 20Hp gains. Good job. I will read into the posts a little more literately than physically. Looking forward to the end results.

Keep up the good work. I am following this closely because I too want to add HP gains without losing reliability. TT Gen 2's and full blown out motor installs usually spell trouble and constant tweeking and tampering.. Sometimes, not all the time. I too am interested in getting 80-100K miles on my build and not every 30K. I am a driver and those mods leave me vulnerable and in my mechanics shop more than I would like.

[FLATOUT]

Now to toss these on your car..

http://gallery.viperclub.org/data/500/medium/BBG_GTS-R_2.JPG


WOW,

Yeah that looks awesome :D. I need to give the guys at M&M a call. Loved their headers on my gen 3.

[slitherv10]

I'm in the same boat as Troublemaker. I am trying to figure out whether I should go TT with my Gen 2 around 700 HP or put the money into my Gen 4 and go your route with the intake swap, headers/exhaust, heads, filter,smooth tubes, mopar PCM and maybe a VVT cam and what not to get me to the same level at 700 HP.

I'm racking my brain trying to figure it out. Thus why I am following this thread and others regarding modifications and pros and cons behind them. Money aspects and long term longevity and reliability are certainly the main factors

[ACRucrazy]

600+ to the tire on a Gen IV is text book, It's only a few bolt-ons away.

[FLATOUT]

600+ to the tire on a Gen IV is text book, It's only a few bolt-ons away.

To be able to do that with stock heads and cam is just nuts lol.

[ACRucrazy]

Yeaaaap!

[Troublemaker]

I'm in the same boat as Troublemaker. I am trying to figure out whether I should go TT with my Gen 2 around 700 HP or put the money into my Gen 4 and go your route with the intake swap, headers/exhaust, heads, filter,smooth tubes, mopar PCM and maybe a VVT cam and what not to get me to the same level at 700 HP.

I'm racking my brain trying to figure it out. Thus why I am following this thread and others regarding modifications and pros and cons behind them. Money aspects and long term longevity and reliability are certainly the main factors

It's so tempting to have a NA car, but the FI route is right around the same price. I really am sitting back and watching what the Gen 4 guys are doing and what is working. I just happen to like the look of the Gen5 intake. Keep up the good work on the these builds.

[Shooter]

I'm in the same boat as Troublemaker. I am trying to figure out whether I should go TT with my Gen 2 around 700 HP or put the money into my Gen 4 and go your route with the intake swap, headers/exhaust, heads, filter,smooth tubes, mopar PCM and maybe a VVT cam and what not to get me to the same level at 700 HP.

I'm racking my brain trying to figure it out. Thus why I am following this thread and others regarding modifications and pros and cons behind them. Money aspects and long term longevity and reliability are certainly the main factors

Aint no maybe...Gen IV cam IS a VVT from the factory.

[slitherv10]

Aint no maybe...Gen IV cam IS a VVT from the factory.


Sorry meant to say NON VVT Cam.

[Shooter]

Sorry meant to say NON VVT Cam.

Ya, unfortunately, changing the cam to a non VVT entails an upgrade to a Pectel or Motec system. Viper Specialty would know for sure, but I bet just the Motec is $10-$15K+. I wish we could go that route also, as I love the sound of a big lopey cam. I'd like to have about 650 N/A rwhp in my ACR and be able to beat on it all day at a road course. I'm not going to spend $20-$30k to get it though.

[Viper Specialty]

Ya, unfortunately, changing the cam to a non VVT entails an upgrade to a Pectel or Motec system. Viper Specialty would know for sure, but I bet just the Motec is $10-$15K+. I wish we could go that route also, as I love the sound of a big lopey cam. I'd like to have about 650 N/A rwhp in my ACR and be able to beat on it all day at a road course. I'm not going to spend $20-$30k to get it though.

Yes, Pectel and Motec will be 8-12K minimum in standard fashion, 15+ for a loaded bells and whistles system.

What we are working on ABSOLUTELY will allow cam changes... though I think once most people learn what can be done with VVT, there will not be many people swapping them out :)

[donk_316]

I posted this in Flatouts thread about his intake manifold but it looks like it should be here also.

Sounds like besides just changing the centerline there is a "positioning adjustment" that can be done?
Looks like the stock timing of the VVT leaves a TON of room for improvement just by reading the tech stuff on the Mechadyne website
http://www.mechadyne-int.com/vva-pro...tric-camshafts

YOU could literally run an "eco" tune for cruising and switch to "all balls" mode for goofing off. You could have lumpy idle at the push of a button!

[Disturbed]

Looks like the have a verible LIFT as well. That would be nice to have VVT+L on these V10's. You could have a tame street car below 2000rpm and then transform into a monster from 2000-2500rpm and have a power band so wide you could drift a tractor trailer through it. It wouldn't surpise me to see 750rwhp N/A pump gas.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

FLATOUT - Are you using the stock GENV manifold torque limiters and machining the heads or are you removing these? Looking forward to installation details and results as I have a GenV manifold in waiting...


You can remove the torque limiters with a punch and a hammer as they are press fit. I lightly tapped on them to unseat them. I removed them and trimmed them to the length necessary for the manifold to sit flush.

I’ve been having some conversations with Arrow Racing Engines regarding the compression limiters. My idea was to fabricate a limiter that was angled and would sit flush with the mounting surface of the intake manifold / heads (rough rendering attached). In concept this would prevent compression of the plastic but allow installation without head modification (drilling the GenIV heads to accept the limiters).

They said they tried this and the plastic manifold was just not stiff enough to get a good result when tightening it down. They apparently had issues with leaks, port alignment, power loss, etc. They did admit it could probably be done if the install was very meticulous but it isn’t something they wanted to release to the masses.

Their ultimate recommendation is to drill the heads enough to accept the compression limiters.

FLATOUT – did you see any of these issues with your install? Did it take tons of time and effort to line everything up? Trying to get a feel for what will need to be done.

[Steve M]

Interested in seeing your setup.

Finally got around to taking a couple pics of my catch can setup:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/CatchCan3_zpsee5d39bc.jpg

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/CatchCan4_zpscff1c0eb.jpg

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/CatchCan2_zps1041c8d1.jpg

[FLATOUT]

SteveM sending you a pm about that catch can, that looks perfect.

[Shooter]

SteveM sending you a pm about that catch can, that looks perfect.

Hellz ya

[FLATOUT]

I had no issues with this during my install.

I trimmed the torque limiters short so they would still press fit back into the manifold so that I could still use them to properly align the manifold. As for torqueing the manifold down I think as long as you use caution and torque the manifold to the proper specs (95 inch/lbs) you won't have any issues with leaks or breaking your manifold.

I have a few hundred miles on mine, and we installed one on Shooters car this weekend and it ran great.

I just can't see pulling the heads to machine new seats being at all cost prohibitive. Machining the torque limiters to have the 45 degree cut might not be all that costly if someone was really concerned.


I’ve been having some conversations with Arrow Racing Engines regarding the compression limiters. My idea was to fabricate a limiter that was angled and would sit flush with the mounting surface of the intake manifold / heads (rough rendering attached). In concept this would prevent compression of the plastic but allow installation without head modification (drilling the GenIV heads to accept the limiters).

They said they tried this and the plastic manifold was just not stiff enough to get a good result when tightening it down. They apparently had issues with leaks, port alignment, power loss, etc. They did admit it could probably be done if the install was very meticulous but it isn’t something they wanted to release to the masses.

Their ultimate recommendation is to drill the heads enough to accept the compression limiters.

FLATOUT – did you see any of these issues with your install? Did it take tons of time and effort to line everything up? Trying to get a feel for what will need to be done.

[Steve M]

SteveM sending you a pm about that catch can, that looks perfect.

I'll get you a parts list by this evening...gotta dig back through my archives.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

I'll get you a parts list by this evening...gotta dig back through my archives.

Steve,

Once you get that together I'd be interested in a parts list as well or any information you have. Definitely a very clean install! Looks great.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

I had no issues with this during my install.

I trimmed the torque limiters short so they would still press fit back into the manifold so that I could still use them to properly align the manifold. As for torqueing the manifold down I think as long as you use caution and torque the manifold to the proper specs (95 inch/lbs) you won't have any issues with leaks or breaking your manifold.

I have a few hundred miles on mine, and we installed one on Shooters car this weekend and it ran great.

I just can't see pulling the heads to machine new seats being at all cost prohibitive. Machining the torque limiters to have the 45 degree cut might not be all that costly if someone was really concerned.

So just to be clear on your process you cut the limiters at 90 degrees (both ends of the limiter are parallel) just short enough so they can be reinstalled but not extend past the mounting face?

FYI, I was told you could machine the heads in the car to accept the compression limiters. I don’t need any convincing not to do that if people are successfully installing the intake without doing so.

Thanks!

[FLATOUT]

Exactly, they still assist with alignment but don't limit torque this way so I was just cautious with my torque specs.


So just to be clear on your process you cut the limiters at 90 degrees (both ends of the limiter are parallel) just short enough so they can be reinstalled but not extend past the mounting face?

FYI, I was told you could machine the heads in the car to accept the compression limiters. I don’t need any convincing not to do that if people are successfully installing the intake without doing so.

Thanks!

[SNKBYT]

Just found my dyno sheet before and after doing the Arrow ported/polished intake. Mods before intake were: Belanger headers, hi flow cats, (stock from cat back,) Mopar computer, smooth tubes and hi-flow air filter.

Dyno: stock intake; RWHP 583.2 Torque 559.4
Arrow intake RWHP 608.9 Torque 580.5

Net gain from intake; RWHP 25.7 Torque 21.1

Never dyno car before mods: The car was moddded with exhaust and computer before delivery.

[mjorgensen]

Awesome! ^^^^^^^

[FikseGTS]

I got 609 whp from my 2008 ACR with headers, exhaust, mopar ecu...

http://www.dragtimes.com/Dodge-Viper-Timeslip-18112.html

[FLATOUT]

Interesting,

It looks like to me then the stock Gen V manifold swap makes about 10ftlbs more torque but about 5rwhp less at peak numbers. I did pick up between 25-30rwhp through the middle of the curve though I wonder if the Gen 4 port manifold does that well in the middle of the power band.

We will be dynoing Shooters car again soon to see what his puts down.


Just found my dyno sheet before and after doing the Arrow ported/polished intake. Mods before intake were: Belanger headers, hi flow cats, (stock from cat back,) Mopar computer, smooth tubes and hi-flow air filter.

Dyno: stock intake; RWHP 583.2 Torque 559.4
Arrow intake RWHP 608.9 Torque 580.5

Net gain from intake; RWHP 25.7 Torque 21.1

Never dyno car before mods: The car was moddded with exhaust and computer before delivery.

[Revolution]

Havent dyno'd my combo but with headers and custom exhaust went 133.5 Mph so would guess getting close to 600Whp!

[Wheelman]

Interesting,

It looks like to me then the stock Gen V manifold swap makes about 10ftlbs more torque but about 5rwhp less at peak numbers. I did pick up between 25-30rwhp through the middle of the curve though I wonder if the Gen 4 port manifold does that well in the middle of the power band.

We will be dynoing Shooters car again soon to see what his puts down.

I'd take a small hit any day to the peak power for 25-30whp gain in the midrange. That's the area that gets put to the STREET! :drive:

[ViperTom]

I'm oh so close at 585 rwhp with Belanger headers, exhaust and the Mopar chip. The last 15 hp will have to wait

[FLATOUT]

I'm oh so close at 585 rwhp with Belanger headers, exhaust and the Mopar chip. The last 15 hp will have to wait

You're an intake manifold away.

[DreadLox]

Speaking on the 600 WHP… I had my ACR dyno'd and I had numbers all over the place? (They did not run a fan on my engine bay during the pulls). I have Belanger headers, Corsa cat back (no cats), Mopar racing computer, typhoon intake (And a few other things but those are the biggest power adders). They had my numbers from 463whp-553whp. Seems way off to me, do any of you guys have any input on this? I feel something wasn't right for it to be that low, especially when I look at numbers that other Gen IV vipers get stock.
1088
1087

[Steve M]

If those graphs are correct, they stopped your pulls just prior to 5,250...stock fuel cut is 6,400 RPMs, the Mopar PCM takes it to 6,500 RPMs. Your HP is hidden in the rest of the RPMs.

[DreadLox]

If those graphs are correct, they stopped your pulls just prior to 5,250...stock fuel cut is 6,400 RPMs, the Mopar PCM takes it to 6,500 RPMs. Your HP is hidden in the rest of the RPMs.

I was really wondering that, thanks for the input. Ive been itching to get it redone, but with the weather going "south' I'll just have to wait. I still have lots to learn about my car

[Disturbed]

We are talking about bolt-ons. I don't see anything about a bigger TB? I'm a bit surprised that I see the rest of the basic bolt-ons but not a TB. I remember BBK claiming 9 or 10rwhp on the Gen3 cars/RAM truck. Id be willing to bet a pair of TB's on a Gen4/5 would net more than that because of the bigger ci, better heads and intake mani. I would think it could be a solid 10-12rwhp range. Simple easy DIY mod.

[ACRucrazy]

Drive by wire

[Viper Specialty]

Drive by wire


Exactly. Not so simple.

[Disturbed]

Has anyone tried it?

[Viper Specialty]

Has anyone tried it?

There are no direct bolt on DBW throttle bodies of a larger size. The fitment, connectors, voltage range of the sensors, and even the motor polarity differs from one type to the next. Without the ability to have access to ALL of the setup parameters, there is no way to properly configure DBW, and you WILL have errors. DBW is an EXTREMELY complicated, redundant and precise software configuration for safety reasons. The "calibration" setting done at dealers is only designed to fine-tune the manufacturing differences between throttle bodies, and is usually capped at about ~2.5% from the expected response curve and limits. Any further, and it will pop an error for a bad throttle body.

DBW throttles are also extremely expensive to make, and have 3-4x the amount of machine time to make them, minimum- plus the needed work with electronics. It is well beyond most shop's capabilities. Even mass-produced applications can reach near 1K per throttle body for a nice looking billet piece.

Overall, this is standalone-only territory, and $$$ territory any other way to produce a custom piece. I have looked into getting it done, and honestly, if it happens it will be out of sheer curiosity, boredom, and preferring to dump money into potential R&D return than hand said money to uncle Sam. It does not have a good business case in any way, shape or form to actively produce them for a market this small.

[IndyRon]

Along the lines of increased performance, I recently saw that RSI is offering Jesel shaft mount roller rockers for the Gen IV cars. Does anyone know how these work with the unique cam arrangement? Is there power to be had with these over the stock rockers? Can an increased ratio be used over stock for more lift? They are pricey at $2600, but if you could gain another 10-20rwhp it may be worth it for someone going for a max effort setup. Anyone have info on these?

[Steve M]

Along the lines of increased performance, I recently saw that RSI is offering Jesel shaft mount roller rockers for the Gen IV cars. Does anyone know how these work with the unique cam arrangement? Is there power to be had with these over the stock rockers? Can an increased ratio be used over stock for more lift? They are pricey at $2600, but if you could gain another 10-20rwhp it may be worth it for someone going for a max effort setup. Anyone have info on these?

I'd want to see Spintron results before I'd go putting them on my car...most all roller rockers add weight over the nose compared to stock rockers, and that can cause valvetrain stability issues that are highly undesirable. I've also seen companies try to make them lighter only to have them break on a regular basis...also no bueno.

Not trying to be Debbie downer over here, but I just don't see them being a worthwhile mod unless you were having some really bad valve guide (or valve tip) wear issues that were directly related to the factory rockers. I wouldn't expect any power increases out of them at all, especially with the stock cam.

[Timnineside]

Wow what a read!!!! This thread is awesome.

This winter I am installing full belanger on my 08 that put down 545 stock. I'd love to see 600whp.

Is everyone getting there smooth tubes from RSI? I wasn't away anything was out for the gen 4's.

Subscribed! Anyone know cost to port the intake?

-Tim

[FLATOUT]

Wow what a read!!!! This thread is awesome.

This winter I am installing full belanger on my 08 that put down 545 stock. I'd love to see 600whp.

Is everyone getting there smooth tubes from RSI? I wasn't away anything was out for the gen 4's.

Subscribed! Anyone know cost to port the intake?

-Tim

M&M has a 1 7/8 tri y header coming out that I am going to run. Similar to Ballengers but larger primaries. Yes I got my Smooth tubes from RSI. Bad Boyzz is who you need to talk to about porting the gen 4 manifold.

[99RT10]

There are no direct bolt on DBW throttle bodies of a larger size. The fitment, connectors, voltage range of the sensors, and even the motor polarity differs from one type to the next. Without the ability to have access to ALL of the setup parameters, there is no way to properly configure DBW, and you WILL have errors. DBW is an EXTREMELY complicated, redundant and precise software configuration for safety reasons. The "calibration" setting done at dealers is only designed to fine-tune the manufacturing differences between throttle bodies, and is usually capped at about ~2.5% from the expected response curve and limits. Any further, and it will pop an error for a bad throttle body.

DBW throttles are also extremely expensive to make, and have 3-4x the amount of machine time to make them, minimum- plus the needed work with electronics. It is well beyond most shop's capabilities. Even mass-produced applications can reach near 1K per throttle body for a nice looking billet piece.

Overall, this is standalone-only territory, and $$$ territory any other way to produce a custom piece. I have looked into getting it done, and honestly, if it happens it will be out of sheer curiosity, boredom, and preferring to dump money into potential R&D return than hand said money to uncle Sam. It does not have a good business case in any way, shape or form to actively produce them for a market this small.

What abut the possibility of taking a set of stock TBs and modifying them? Possible cheap option?

[Shooter]

Bad Boyzz is who you need to talk to about porting the gen 4 manifold.

Dan Cragin or Arrow also.

[Viper Specialty]

What abut the possibility of taking a set of stock TBs and modifying them? Possible cheap option?

There is a very, very small amount of material around the blades, and they do not have an enlarging throat as they move in front of the butterflies. Long story short, they would become very fragile, and you would have cracking problems just putting tubes on them. Absolute limit would be in the +2-3mm ballpark, and that is really pushing it on a plastic body. If I was to change them, I would go with a 3.25 throat necking down to around a 3.125 butterfly, and machine the manifold to accept. OE is about 2.950, and our G4 Billet Mechanicals for conversions are 3.000.

[FrgMstr]

Car (2008 Viper (http://kylebennett.com/files/kyle/viper/Green/Dustball%20Rally%20Viper%20Sky%20Shot-1280res.jpg)) full stock with Corsa catbacks.. 565hp/545tq

http://kylebennett.com/files/kyle/viper/Green/Dyno_08_Viper_Green-Catbacks.jpg

Did three pulls last night. Been a while but I had not gotten solid numbers with the mods. Mods: Mopar ECU, Belanger headers, cat delete, Corsa catbacks. (Took the straight pipes off, they were too loud for 7 days of driving on the last rally.) 606hp / 583tq

Getting ready to put a new intake on the car and wanted to have solid before and after numbers.

Video of the pulls... (http://youtu.be/cB9p_qvwvmo)

http://kylebennett.com/files/kyle/viper/Green/Viper%20Dyno%201213.jpg

[FLATOUT]

Looks great FrgMstr!

Guys if you post up dyno numbers please let people know what correction factor was used. SAE is the most accepted, sometimes dyno operators give them to you in Standard, or also as un corrected. Standard reads about 10rwhp higher than SAE (at least they always do on my pulls), and then uncorrected can be way over inflated or way under inflated.

For instance my last dyno was 618 RWHP uncorrected, 612 RWHP Standard, and 602 RWHP SAE. Since we are looking at NA builds here we are most likely going to be splitting hairs to tweak these combos for the best possible setups, so the more accurate the info the better shot we have at figuring out what is really working.

Here's three runs overlayed SAE, my car same dyno on three separate occasions:

Blue: STOCK with K&N Panel Filter
Green: Gen V Manifold, Mopar ECU
Red: Headers, No cats, Stock 2 1/2 inch catback

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n133/ZOSICK/image_zpsea36211d.jpg (http://s111.photobucket.com/user/ZOSICK/media/image_zpsea36211d.jpg.html)

[FLATOUT]

FrgMstr, look at the difference in your graphs and mine post manifold swap:). Notice how different the power band looks :). The new manifold really helps smooth out the "peaks" and "valleys" created by the VVTI cam setup.

I think you'll really notice a difference after the manifold install.

[DreadLox]

FLATOUT, do you know if the Gen IV K&N typhoon kit works with the Gen V intake manifold?

http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac176/DreadLox711/My%20ACR%20viper/image_zps6b0bfe0c.jpg (http://s897.photobucket.com/user/DreadLox711/media/My%20ACR%20viper/image_zps6b0bfe0c.jpg.html)

http://i897.photobucket.com/albums/ac176/DreadLox711/My%20ACR%20viper/image_zps93c32968.jpg (http://s897.photobucket.com/user/DreadLox711/media/My%20ACR%20viper/image_zps93c32968.jpg.html)

[FLATOUT]

There's no reason it shouldn't work.

[MI Viper]

Awesome data, gives me a great ideas on what to do this coming year....
thanks,

[ACRucrazy]

I love this thread. I would love to see a bunch of Gen IVs over 600 to the tire in 2014.

[v10addiction]

Well, to get 609 RWHP you would have to be pushing around 715-720 at the crank. With around 30 coming from the ported intake, how do the other mods break down in RWHP to get to 609 RWHP?...Seems like too much really. Just asking. not an expert at all but, im sure someone who knows more than I can explain it to me.

No Gen IV looses more than 40hp and 45tq to the drive-line.

Some of the Gen I/II's lost 60hp and Gen III's might hit 50hp, but Gen IV are the lowest loss.

The old 15% rule is bs, I own a dyno and have for many years.

A ported intake will not make 30hp, if this were the case, the air filter itself would be a restriction and notable on the dyno (It's not).
The way people get the extra power form a power adder is usually from raising the rpm limit.

Horse Power = (Torque (at a given rpm) X rpm) / 5250)

Hence, more rpm, more horsepower (especially true for the long torque band of a Viper).
This is how a Supra makes 1000hp, they rev the crap out of it.

No shop wants you to know this, because there would be little to sell you for gains.
This is why they always state "results may vary" and "for off road use only".

Most of the power gains on Gen IV's come from the raised rpm limit the performance PCM has along with the torque limiting removed, not the mods to the motor.
You can spend a fortune and port match and polish everything you want, but without a real tune you are dumping money down the drain.

I have a stock 2008 ACR with belanger exhaust and a custom tune from Chrysler, for testing a map sensor error issue that plagues many Gen IV's with market exhaust.
The other wise stock car makes 632hp and 609tq to the wheels, which is almost identical to the ACR-X when the motor is new.

What is holding back the car, is not the intake or exhaust, its the tune, and no amount of swapping parts will change this.

If you swap the pistons out and add compression (for a fraction of what all the other stuff will cost), you could see gains 150hp in compression alone by adding fuel pressure across the rpm range, done with a simple fuel pressure regulator.
It would not be as precise a tune, but a mechanical one, and it would result in real power gains.

The problem is Chrysler designed the system to read Mass Airflow and validate with the Map sensor, and the motors already run lean for emissions.
More airflow will max out the range of the sensors and extra oxygen only leans it further.
To compensate, the PCM with pull back the throttle bodies to get you back in range, and the exhaust will run hotter.

[slitherv10]

No Gen IV looses more than 40hp and 45tq to the drive-line.

Some of the Gen I/II's lost 60hp and Gen III's might hit 50hp, but Gen IV are the lowest loss.

The old 15% rule is bs.

Thanks for clarifying that for me. The more I read this and one other thread regarding the swap and or mods, it seems, at this point in time anyway until tuning is found for the PCM, that this would be the most cost effective way to get good gains from a Gen IV.

[FrgMstr]

I think a lot of us tend to weigh way too much on peak numbers for HP and TQ. I personally am much more interested in gains through 3500 to 6500 rpms, which is where the power truly matters if you are racing. After the bolt-on mods exhaust mods and PCM, the intake seems to be the place to get these "middle" power gains from.

[ACRucrazy]

No Gen IV looses more than 40hp and 45tq to the drive-line.

Some of the Gen I/II's lost 60hp and Gen III's might hit 50hp, but Gen IV are the lowest loss.

The old 15% rule is bs, I own a dyno and have for many years.

A ported intake will not make 30hp, if this were the case, the air filter itself would be a restriction and notable on the dyno (It's not).
The way people get the extra power form a power adder is usually from raising the rpm limit.

Horse Power = (Torque (at a given rpm) X rpm) / 5250)

Hence, more rpm, more horsepower (especially true for the long torque band of a Viper).
This is how a Supra makes 1000hp, they rev the crap out of it.

No shop wants you to know this, because there would be little to sell you for gains.
This is why they always state "results may vary" and "for off road use only".

Most of the power gains on Gen IV's come from the raised rpm limit the performance PCM has along with the torque limiting removed, not the mods to the motor.
You can spend a fortune and port match and polish everything you want, but without a real tune you are dumping money down the drain.

I have a stock 2008 ACR with belanger exhaust and a custom tune from Chrysler, for testing a map sensor error issue that plagues many Gen IV's with market exhaust.
The other wise stock car makes 632hp and 609tq to the wheels, which is almost identical to the ACR-X when the motor is new.

What is holding back the car, is not the intake or exhaust, its the tune, and no amount of swapping parts will change this.

If you swap the pistons out and add compression (for a fraction of what all the other stuff will cost), you could see gains 150hp in compression alone by adding fuel pressure across the rpm range, done with a simple fuel pressure regulator.
It would not be as precise a tune, but a mechanical one, and it would result in real power gains.

The problem is Chrysler designed the system to read Mass Airflow and validate with the Map sensor, and the motors already run lean for emissions.
More airflow will max out the range of the sensors and extra oxygen only leans it further.
To compensate, the PCM with pull back the throttle bodies to get you back in range, and the exhaust will run hotter.

I always enjoy reading your posts. I knew I've seen your car somewhere else! A.R.T.

[FLATOUT]

I think a lot of us tend to weigh way too much on peak numbers for HP and TQ. I personally am much more interested in gains through 3500 to 6500 rpms, which is where the power truly matters if you are racing. After the bolt-on mods exhaust mods and PCM, the intake seems to be the place to get these "middle" power gains from.

Agree, area under the curve is always important. Nice to see the Ballista car resurface as well :). As far as building an NA car without the ability to tune it yes it is very frustrating, but if I can get to 640-650 RWHP with ported heads and stock cam I will be happy.

[IndyRon]

I think we are going to have a race this spring to 650rwhp.

[FLATOUT]

I think we are going to have a race this spring to 650rwhp.

I think you're right lol

[MI Viper]

So the Gen IV PCM really holds back the engine that much? Newbie Q?
Thanks,
MI V.

[Steve M]

So the Gen IV PCM really holds back the engine that much? Newbie Q?
Thanks,
MI V.

I don't think anyone really knows since no one has been able to modify it until just recently, and there's only one that I know of with no results provided. The Mopar PCM adds quite a bit to the midrange, so it leads me to believe that there's at least something being left on the table in the stock calibration. Seems like the calibration is also on the conservative side due to emissions requirements.

If everything goes as scheduled, I guess we'll all find out.

[FLATOUT]

Well you can look at the middle line in my dyno graphs to see what the Mopar ECU and the Gen V manifold added. We are going to dyno a local car (Shooters) that only added the manifold without the ECU so we can see what helped the most on that pull that I made.

[Revolution]

I would like to see a Viper engine not on full blown race gas or full meth gain even close to 150hp?

[Revolution]

No Gen IV looses more than 40hp and 45tq to the drive-line.

Some of the Gen I/II's lost 60hp and Gen III's might hit 50hp, but Gen IV are the lowest loss.

The old 15% rule is bs, I own a dyno and have for many years.

A ported intake will not make 30hp, if this were the case, the air filter itself would be a restriction and notable on the dyno (It's not).
The way people get the extra power form a power adder is usually from raising the rpm limit.

Horse Power = (Torque (at a given rpm) X rpm) / 5250)

Hence, more rpm, more horsepower (especially true for the long torque band of a Viper).
This is how a Supra makes 1000hp, they rev the crap out of it.
Your forgetting they there throwing 30-55psi of boost at those motors

No shop wants you to know this, because there would be little to sell you for gains.
This is why they always state "results may vary" and "for off road use only".
I believe that is because the mods are not Carb exempt and meet emissions testing :)
Most of the power gains on Gen IV's come from the raised rpm limit the performance PCM has along with the torque limiting removed, not the mods to the motor.
You can spend a fortune and port match and polish everything you want, but without a real tune you are dumping money down the drain.
Weird as I ran my car at the same track while doing my mods and the car got quicker and faster considerably?
I have a stock 2008 ACR with belanger exhaust and a custom tune from Chrysler, for testing a map sensor error issue that plagues many Gen IV's with market exhaust.
The other wise stock car makes 632hp and 609tq to the wheels, which is almost identical to the ACR-X when the motor is new.

What is holding back the car, is not the intake or exhaust, its the tune, and no amount of swapping parts will change this.
Again weird as my exhaust netted me a big gain in Mph in the 1/4
If you swap the pistons out and add compression (for a fraction of what all the other stuff will cost), you could see gains 150hp in compression alone by adding fuel pressure across the rpm range, done with a simple fuel pressure regulator.
It would not be as precise a tune, but a mechanical one, and it would result in real power gains.
I would like to see your Viper dyno charts of a motor picking up 150hp
The problem is Chrysler designed the system to read Mass Airflow and validate with the Map sensor, and the motors already run lean for emissions.
More airflow will max out the range of the sensors and extra oxygen only leans it further.
To compensate, the PCM with pull back the throttle bodies to get you back in range, and the exhaust will run hotter.

I would disagree! I know one thing from racing my whole life dyno's lie 1/4 Mph or any timed acceleration doesn't :)

[FLATOUT]

I would disagree! I know one thing from racing my whole life dyno's lie 1/4 Mph or any timed acceleration doesn't :)

As long as you are factoring in DA. Weather distorts MPH so much that it's hard to completely correct everything back to a standard baseline for comparison. I do agree with you though being a drag racer most of my life, that's where it matters, but even having same temp, same baro, but drier humidity scews the results from a true test comparison.

I like using the same dyno for each mod I do, always corrected back to SAE. I don't care what the peak number is, I just care what the numbers are in relation to the pre mod numbers.

[Revolution]

As long as you are factoring in DA. Weather distorts MPH so much that it's hard to completely correct everything back to a standard baseline for comparison. I do agree with you though being a drag racer most of my life, that's where it matters, but even having same temp, same baro, but drier humidity scews the results from a true test comparison.

I like using the same dyno for each mod I do, always corrected back to SAE. I don't care what the peak number is, I just care what the numbers are in relation to the pre mod numbers.
Exactly just like a dyno if everything isn't as close to possible then it makes it hard but when your seeing 5-15 Mph gains and altitude is close your making more power period. Et is traction and 60ft realted more then anything but Mph is pretty much power unless your spinning all the way down the whole track.

Also the reason during my testing I recorded as much info about weather, altitude, air pressures etc as I could

[FLATOUT]

Nice to converse with another drag racer lol. Absolutely, gains are gains, and dyno's don't factor is weight reduction, aero, or suspension setups. The track is always the true test.


Exactly just like a dyno if everything isn't as close to possible then it makes it hard but when your seeing 5-15 Mph gains and altitude is close your making more power period. Et is traction and 60ft realted more then anything but Mph is pretty much power unless your spinning all the way down the whole track.

Also the reason during my testing I recorded as much info about weather, altitude, air pressures etc as I could

[MI Viper]

[QUOTE=Steve M;20505]I don't think anyone really knows since no one has been able to modify it until just recently, and there's only one that I know of with no results provided. The Mopar PCM adds quite a bit to the midrange, so it leads me to believe that there's at least something being left on the table in the stock calibration. Seems like the calibration is also on the conservative side due to emissions requirements.

If everything goes as scheduled, I guess we'll all find out.[/QUOTE

I'm confused, newbie, I read about the Mopar PCM and what it can do, (Power Adder along with other Mods, Exhaust...) but, has someone "Cracked" the stock PCM to be albe to upgrade it?
thanks,
MI V.

[mjorgensen]

[QUOTE=Steve M;20505]I don't think anyone really knows since no one has been able to modify it until just recently, and there's only one that I know of with no results provided. The Mopar PCM adds quite a bit to the midrange, so it leads me to believe that there's at least something being left on the table in the stock calibration. Seems like the calibration is also on the conservative side due to emissions requirements.

If everything goes as scheduled, I guess we'll all find out.[/QUOTE

I'm confused, newbie, I read about the Mopar PCM and what it can do, (Power Adder along with other Mods, Exhaust...) but, has someone "Cracked" the stock PCM to be albe to upgrade it?
thanks,
MI V.

No, cannot be done.

[MI Viper]

[QUOTE=MI Viper;20938]

No, cannot be done.

MJ,
Thanks for the newbie info.
MI V.

[Steve M]

No, cannot be done.

Can, and has been done...just waiting on HPTuners to release the software.

[FLATOUT]

Can, and has been done...just waiting on HPTuners to release the software.

Bingo ^^^

[ACRucrazy]

No there is not.

However if a Gen IV would like a step in the right direction with a Gen V intake and Mopar PCM it has been proven a few times intake/pcm and headers will get you to 600whp. :)

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s99/ACRucrazy/009%20SSG%20ACR/VCA/GenVintake_zps6b012153.jpg

[DreadLox]

No there is not.

However if a Gen IV would like a step in the right direction with a Gen V intake and Mopar PCM it has been proven a few times intake/pcm and headers will get you to 600whp. :)

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s99/ACRucrazy/009%20SSG%20ACR/VCA/GenVintake_zps6b012153.jpg

^ I gotta let you know about buyin that bud.... Waiting to here from a buddy of mine. I currently don't have a place to do the work/swap

[TexasTonka]

We are getting close. I have my ACR at Tomball getting a lot of items installed like the ACRX diff cooler, tranny cooler, Rear Upright Support Kit from Snake Oyl, ACRX canards, MGW shifter and Woodhouse mounts...blah blah blah...

This is my dyno pull today BEFORE the Gen V intake install. I don't know weather conditions down in Houston today but lets just assume it was chilly with approx. 50% humidity. Once the intake gets thrown on they will dyno it again, on the same dyno, with different weather I am sure.

This is a Hennessey 650R, so it has headers, high flow cats, and exhaust with MOPAR PCM. Pretty standard stuff. Not sure of the manufacturer or size of the cats or exhaust, I'll shoot HPE an email and see if they can tell me. Car is a '09 bought in November with 500 miles on it and now has a hair over 2000, mainly 'spirited' highway miles back and forth from Tomball to San Antonio.

I will post up the results after the new intake is installed. Not looking for stupid power, I have a GTS Twin Turbo for that, but it would be cool to be in the 600 club on all motor with just bolt ons!

[FLATOUT]

Looks good Kurt,

Weather won't matter on your dyno's as they will be corrected to SAE. That being said KP's is a Mustsng dyno and usually reads about 10rwhp lower than a dynojet. If you hit 590rwhp on their mustang I bet it would make 600rwhp on Serious's dyno jet.

Also the cars that are making 600rwhp so far with stock heads aren't running cats so not sure how much guys are making with the same mods and cats on the car.

Kurt ask Morgan to make sure they print you a copy SAE corrected (I think it probably is but didn't see it anywhere on the sheet).

Good luck buddy Morgan just got done with my valve covers for the X can. Getting them back on the car tonight.


We are getting close. I have my ACR at Tomball getting a lot of items installed like the ACRX diff cooler, tranny cooler, Rear Upright Support Kit from Snake Oyl, ACRX canards, MGW shifter and Woodhouse mounts...blah blah blah...

This is my dyno pull today BEFORE the Gen V intake install. I don't know weather conditions down in Houston today but lets just assume it was chilly with approx. 50% humidity. Once the intake gets thrown on they will dyno it again, on the same dyno, with different weather I am sure.

This is a Hennessey 650R, so it has headers, high flow cats, and exhaust with MOPAR PCM. Pretty standard stuff. Not sure of the manufacturer or size of the cats or exhaust, I'll shoot HPE an email and see if they can tell me. Car is a '09 bought in November with 500 miles on it and now has a hair over 2000, mainly 'spirited' highway miles back and forth from Tomball to San Antonio.

I will post up the results after the new intake is installed. Not looking for stupid power, I have a GTS Twin Turbo for that, but it would be cool to be in the 600 club on all motor with just bolt ons!

[01sapphirebob]

No there is not.

However if a Gen IV would like a step in the right direction with a Gen V intake and Mopar PCM it has been proven a few times intake/pcm and headers will get you to 600whp. :)

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s99/ACRucrazy/009%20SSG%20ACR/VCA/GenVintake_zps6b012153.jpg

I'm so torn! I would love to do this. I already have the PCM though. Just the intake would be needed. Hmm....

[mjorgensen]

Can, and has been done...just waiting on HPTuners to release the software.

Oh OK cool, I heard they were having problems with the different sensors, hope they get it figured out will be great for the Viper!

[Getnlwr]

Sure would be nice. It might alleviate the headache I have now.

[09redviper]

Great thread and lots of info.

Is there any dyno # for this combo : ( mopar PCM , BBG headers, corsa 3" catback , no cats, BBG ported head, BBG ported intake and BBG lightweight clutch ) ??
I had this exact combo of mods plus some extras( none hp mods ). Sadly, my viper involved in an accident before I I got the chance to dyno it. :(

[ACRucrazy]

Great thread and lots of info.

Is there any dyno # for this combo : ( mopar PCM , BBG headers, corsa 3" catback , no cats, BBG ported head, BBG ported intake and BBG lightweight clutch ) ??
I had this exact combo of mods plus some extras( none hp mods ). Sadly, my viper involved in an accident before I I got the chance to dyno it. :(

If any Gen IV was going to be close to 650 RWHP this would have to be close. I would think that is 625+. Good combo! I think a BBG clutch is on my list for this year. :dude3:

[09redviper]

Here are some 600+ rwhp gen IV :


http://youtu.be/XAAhyyHk5dE


http://youtu.be/Iv2K33-Je04


http://youtu.be/XrQ232srnZw

[09redviper]

If any Gen IV was going to be close to 650 RWHP this would have to be close. I would think that is 625+. Good combo! I think a BBG clutch is on my list for this year. :dude3:

You are right, I was hopping to see 625+ rwhp and doing some 1/4 , 1/2 and 1 mile runs to find out how strong my viper would be.

[FLATOUT]

So that RSI car dynod 650rwhp anyone know what the story on that one was? I remember seeing it and I'm sure the heads are ported.

Interesting the black car RC's was on the same dyno as my car.

His in that run had headers, ported Gen IV manifold, catback, no cats (I think), ARH headers, and ported factory heads. He made 612 rwhp on that run and mine with a Gen V manifold, stock heads and stock catback made 602rwhp. Interesting.

[09redviper]

So that RSI car dynod 650rwhp anyone know what the story on that one was? I remember seeing it and I'm sure the heads are ported.

Interesting the black car RC's was on the same dyno as my car.

His in that run had headers, ported Gen IV manifold, catback, no cats (I think), ARH headers, and ported factory heads. He made 612 rwhp on that run and mine with a Gen V manifold, stock heads and stock catback made 602rwhp. Interesting.


Rc's viper has big rims on the back and I think the car has higher final gear ratio( maybe 3.55). These things will result in lower dyno numbers as I heard from some people. Also, I saw a dyno vid for rc,s viper running 600 rwhp.

FLATOUT, have u seen RC's viper run on nitrous ? Any # with nitrous shot ?

[FLATOUT]

Rc's viper has big rims on the back and I think the car has higher final gear ratio( maybe 3.55). These things will result in lower dyno numbers as I heard from some people.

FLATOUT, have u seen RC's viper run on nitrous ? Any # with nitrous shot ?

Yes I know RC's car well, and he lives fairly close to me. Not sure what it made on the bottle.

[Shooter]

Yes I know RC's car well, and he lives fairly close to me. Not sure what it made on the bottle.

Who has that car now?. I haven't seen it around in a while.

[FLATOUT]

Who has that car now?. I haven't seen it around in a while.

Some kid in the midwest I think.

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

I'm confused...correct me if I'm wrong....stock Gen VI runs 600 crank horses minus about a 13-15% drop in driveline would net you at 14% average drop, 516 RWHP no?


Slither: I certainly HOPE the 'Gen 6' does not de-power back down to 600 crank HP!!!!!

[Getnlwr]

Ideal would be 600 to each tire... but that's just me... If we want to reclaim the baddest toy title.

[Shooter]

Slither: I certainly HOPE the 'Gen 6' does not de-power back down to 600 crank HP!!!!!

Good point Jon. It's a good thing I have a Gen IV. Those Gen VI's slither is talking about must be coming with a V8 or something.

And on that note, I have Hi-flow cats coming from JonB. I'm going to keep the stock exhaust for now (Cause I'm cheap) and see if they show any kind of gain. I still have to dyno my car with the new intake, then I'll put these on and do it again.

[DreadLox]

I had already ordered a Gen V intake manifold before I found out I have a ported lower intake on my ACR now (didn't know smh, was not listed when i bought it and I was never told until I got ahold of Bill and Mark @ Woodhouse, thank you guys for all the help). It'll be a few months (sometime in the spring) but I'm going to get it dyno'd before and after the swap. Then we can see what the HP differences are between the Gen V and a ported Gen IV intake manifold are, if someone else doesn't find out before then of course.

[Shooter]

So any bets as to whether I can run Hi-flo cats without a Mopar pcm?.

[Revolution]

I had already ordered a Gen V intake manifold before I found out I have a ported lower intake on my ACR now (didn't know smh, was not listed when i bought it and I was never told until I got ahold of Bill and Mark @ Woodhouse, thank you guys for all the help). It'll be a few months (sometime in the spring) but I'm going to get it dyno'd before and after the swap. Then we can see what the HP differences are between the Gen V and a ported Gen IV intake manifold are, if someone else doesn't find out before then of course.
I would be interested in this as well!

[Revolution]

I would say at te most you would need some extenders and best nothing else.

[DreadLox]

So any bets as to whether I can run Hi-flo cats without a Mopar pcm?.

Shooter I see no reason why. I can't say that from experience tho. My old cars, not vipers, had high flows and the CEL never came on. But as long as there is a cat there and the o2 sensors are plugged in you should be fine.

[ACRucrazy]

So any bets as to whether I can run Hi-flo cats without a Mopar pcm?.

My 08 tripped the cel with corsa and hi flow

[Shooter]

My 08 tripped the cel with corsa and hi flow

Before the factory pcm reflash that was done to the 08's or after. IIRC, midway through the 08 production, SRT changed something in the pcm's. The early cars got a reflash at the dealer. I never had problems with my last 09, but I didn't have a Gen V intake on that one.

[ACRucrazy]

Before the factory pcm reflash that was done to the 08's or after. IIRC, midway through the 08 production, SRT changed something in the pcm's. The early cars got a reflash at the dealer. I never had problems with my last 09, but I didn't have a Gen V intake on that one.

Mine was a late '08 as it was the aero coupe in bright blue, IIRC it was built in the 6th month of 09? I just remember it being late built car.

[Shooter]

Mine was a late '08 as it was the aero coupe in bright blue, IIRC it was built in the 6th month of 09? I just remember it being late built car.

Thanks. I hope mine doesn't, but we will see.
They (vendors) need to hurry up and get the tuning software out for the Gen IV's.

[Murpowa]

bumping an old thread. Any updates from some of you with Mopar ECU's now that HPTuners is available?

[Derek Short]

615 rwhp with these bolt ons.....

Mopar PCM
Headers ACR-X
No cats
K and N typhoon intake

[Murpowa]

Great power for those mods Derek!

I'm interested in the capabilities of the Gen IV motor after headwork. I've found some older threads on the other site where a few Gen IV's dynoed north of 650 whp after headwork, one of them even converted to solid cam which really tingled my senses - All of that while running the 'limited' tuning provided by the Mopar ECU. Now with more tuning options, I'm curious what the potential could be.

[Derek Short]

Great power for those mods Derek!

I'm interested in the capabilities of the Gen IV motor after headwork. I've found some older threads on the other site where a few Gen IV's dynoed north of 650 whp after headwork, one of them even converted to solid cam which really tingled my senses - All of that while running the 'limited' tuning provided by the Mopar ECU. Now with more tuning options, I'm curious what the potential could be.

Thanks, and wow 650 rwhp that pretty impressive. with that said I'd say 700RWHP would be obtainable with head work and custom tuning. I am happy with the power mine is currently making. Getting ready to do 355's in the next few months.... But will be going to HF cats so no doubt that will hurt some of my power. But hoping the 355's will make up for that loss and make the gears a bit faster to go threw as well as 6th being more usable. Considering doing 355's first before the HF cats to see how much of a power difference I will notice.

[Steve M]

Thanks, and wow 650 rwhp that pretty impressive. with that said I'd say 700RWHP would be obtainable with head work and custom tuning. I am happy with the power mine is currently making. Getting ready to do 355's in the next few months.... But will be going to HF cats so no doubt that will hurt some of my power. But hoping the 355's will make up for that loss and make the gears a bit faster to go threw as well as 6th being more usable. Considering doing 355's first before the HF cats to see how much of a power difference I will notice.

You'd need to throw a cam in there if you want to hit those numbers, and even then I'm not sure you'd get there.

[IndyRon]

You'd need to throw a cam in there if you want to hit those numbers, and even then I'm not sure you'd get there.

Agreed. I think you'll also need more RPM.

[Synfull]

I'm curious how much of a difference cats make.
I have-
Mopar PCM
Headers ACR-X
Hi Flo Cats
K and N typhoon intake
Corsa Exhaust
I only dynoed 590.

[RPM9000]

Before my Mopar PCM went out mine made 615 RWHP. It has M&M headers, no cats, 3 1/2" mufflers, GenV intake and underdrive pulley.

[Synfull]

Before my Mopar PCM went out mine made 615 RWHP. It has M&M headers, no cats, 3 1/2" mufflers, GenV intake and underdrive pulley.

Thanks. I may consider going catless.

[09redviper]

Before my Mopar PCM went out mine made 615 RWHP. It has M&M headers, no cats, 3 1/2" mufflers, GenV intake and underdrive pulley.

any updated for the dyno result after having the mopar PCM installed ?

[jvm728]

I don't have a before dyno, but I will dyno within the next week or so with my mod list. If I don't pass 615 Im adding a bottle

[09redviper]

I don't have a before dyno, but I will dyno within the next week or so with my mod list. If I don't pass 615 Im adding a bottle
What mods do u have on ur car?
Keep us updated with the results.