ARH Versus Belanger Headers

[Jack B]

There have been numerous posts and threads discussing whether Belanger or ARH headers generate more hp/torque. The general consensus seems to indicate they are close in power numbers, however, every now and then, a post will claim a substantial difference in power between the two competitors. My winter project is to do a back-to-back comparison between Belanger and ARH.

1, The existing catless setup:
A. Belanger headers.
B. Belanger j-pipe (3" in - 2-1/2" out)
C. Corsa muffler - 2-1/2" inlet.

2. The new catless setup:
A. 1-3/4" ARH headers - black ceramic outside coating and clear ceramic inside. (coated after purchase)
B. ARH j-pipe (3" in and 3" out) Two of these pipes were $425??
C. Corsa muffler - 3" inlet.

3. Observations:
A. Belanger = steel and ARH = stainless.
B. Quality - they are both a 10.
C. Installation - although I have not installed the ARH headers yet, it is obvious the ARH will be a harder install than the Belanger's.

4. The picture below:
A. The item marked #1 is the ARH 3" j-pipe.
B. The item marked # 2 is a 3"OD X 3"ID adapter. It is needed to extend the j-pipe into the muffler.
C. The item marked #3 is the 3" to 2-1/2" j-pipe that came with the ARH headers. The headers were taken off another G5. Just a guess, most Belanger and ARH systems probably reduce down to 2-1/2" because the oem muffler has a 2-1/2' inlet. The two j-pipes look as though they are different lengths, they are identical in length, it is just the orientation in the picture.


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[Reaper]

Nice comparison. Im very interested in the results of this myself. Im partial to ARH for being stainless but always nice to see a equal comparison. Thanks for your efforts!

[Topplayer]

looking forward to the results. I have been planning to go ARH because of the SS and they are local but well see after this!

[SNKEBIT]

Why the SS? Sounds wayyyy too tinny. Too ricey, and way too freekin expensive. I know the stuff lasts a long time but these are Vipers, they don't get the mileage that your DD gets.


;)

[Voice of Reason]

With your 9L this will be an interesting test, the larger engine needs a good set of headers more than stock so if there is a measurable difference we should be able to see it.

Will you be testing this with the canned 9L tune or are you using HPT and your own tune to tweak anything for the different headers?

[stradman]

With your 9L this will be an interesting test, the larger engine needs a good set of headers more than stock so if there is a measurable difference we should be able to see it.

Will you be testing this with the canned 9L tune or are you using HPT and your own tune to tweak anything for the different headers?

Why was the 9L canned?

[Jack B]

With your 9L this will be an interesting test, the larger engine needs a good set of headers more than stock so if there is a measurable difference we should be able to see it.

Will you be testing this with the canned 9L tune or are you using HPT and your own tune to tweak anything for the different headers?

As far as HPT, I am not aware that it can used on the Arrow pcm.

[586rwhp300zxTT]

Interested in seeing the results.

One question; however, do the ARH headers not come with the 3" outlet/inlet j-pipe when ordering the headers or is this something that has to be ordered separately? I'd assume this would be some sort of option as some exhaust systems have 3" outlets/inlets such as my Agency Power Titanium exhaust.

[Jack B]

Why the SS? Sounds wayyyy too tinny. Too ricey, and way too freekin expensive. I know the stuff lasts a long time but these are Vipers, they don't get the mileage that your DD gets.


;)

as far as I know, both brands are close to a similar price point. I do not expect to find much difference in power, therefore, to make it simple (re-install), the Belangers will go up for sale unless they show a much larger number.

[Jack B]

Interested in seeing the results.

One question; however, do the ARH headers not come with the 3" outlet/inlet j-pipe when ordering the headers or is this something that has to be ordered separately? I'd assume this would be some sort of option as some exhaust systems have 3" outlets/inlets such as my Agency Power Titanium exhaust.

The collector is 3". The j-pipe is where it goes from 3" to 2-1/2. If you buy them new, I am sure you can order the j-pipe as 3"/3". I think it is fairly common to have some minor issues (ID and location) at the muffler inlet.

[99RT10]

as far as I know, both brands are close to a similar price point. I do not expect to find much difference in power, therefore, to make it simple (re-install), the Belangers will go up for sale unless they show a much larger number.

I don't think on a N/A motor will will see a big difference, but will put money on ARH having the best power numbers. Now if you are talking about a FI engine or a huge N/A, the pickle in the Balengers becomes a choke point:

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[ViperPete]

Isnt the pickle removable? I seem to recall removing mine...

[Voice of Reason]

Before installing make sure the middle “5 into 5” middle flanges on each header have true surfaces that will seal up. My passenger side was warped and was high in the center making it impossible to seal. It caused me to uninstall them after digging two blown baskets and machine the surface flat. Serious PITA on the passenger side!

The idea of HPT was a long shot. If you could pull the existing tune I’m sure you could make some nice tweaks to it, but I don’t know what you’d be able to use as a starting point since the cam is so different than stock.

[slowhatch]

Before installing make sure the middle “5 into 5” middle flanges on each header have true surfaces that will seal up. My passenger side was warped and was high in the center making it impossible to seal. It caused me to uninstall them after digging two blown baskets and machine the surface flat. Serious PITA on the passenger side!

The idea of HPT was a long shot. If you could pull the existing tune I’m sure you could make some nice tweaks to it, but I don’t know what you’d be able to use as a starting point since the cam is so different than stock.

Not the first time I've heard of ARH having warped flanges, interesting...

Jack,

I don't know how much we can really learn here from back to back dynos where one is a full 3" header back system, and your Belanger is a 2.5" midpipe back system. Interested in the results nontheless.

[J TNT]

Great post Jack , I'm curious to see what the Delta is at 3000 , 4000, 5000, and 6000 RPM . Peak power doesn't tell the whole story , But you already knew that.....lol !

[Jack B]

That was the first thing I checked, the existing gasket was mated perfectly, no leakage. It looked like new and I am going to reuse the original gasket. I bought new stainless 12pt X 5/16 (head) bolts. They are difficult to start on the bench, we will see how it goes on the car. It looks like the only way to turn them will be with a 12pt wrench.

I have had the same warping issue with Belanger's, I always use a gasket on the Belanger lower pipes even though they say not to.



Before installing make sure the middle “5 into 5” middle flanges on each header have true surfaces that will seal up. My passenger side was warped and was high in the center making it impossible to seal. It caused me to uninstall them after digging two blown baskets and machine the surface flat. Serious PITA on the passenger side!

The idea of HPT was a long shot. If you could pull the existing tune I’m sure you could make some nice tweaks to it, but I don’t know what you’d be able to use as a starting point since the cam is so different than stock.

[Jack B]

Great post Jack , I'm curious to see what the Delta is at 3000 , 4000, 5000, and 6000 RPM . Peak power doesn't tell the whole story , But you already knew that.....lol !

I find it hard to believe this has not been done yet?

[Jack B]

It is strange, the muffler is 3", however, there is a reducer on the Corsa input that brings it down to 2-1/2". My car was the mule for Corsa and I never paid any attention to the muffler, since I just recently removed the cats.


Not the first time I've heard of ARH having warped flanges, interesting...


Jack,

I don't know how much we can really learn here from back to back dynos where one is a full 3" header back system, and your Belanger is a 2.5" midpipe back system. Interested in the results nontheless.

[Jack B]

I am with you, changing the headers/exhaust system is a painful task, uninstalling and reinstalling has several four letter words attached to the task.



Before installing make sure the middle “5 into 5” middle flanges on each header have true surfaces that will seal up. My passenger side was warped and was high in the center making it impossible to seal. It caused me to uninstall them after digging two blown baskets and machine the surface flat. Serious PITA on the passenger side!

The idea of HPT was a long shot. If you could pull the existing tune I’m sure you could make some nice tweaks to it, but I don’t know what you’d be able to use as a starting point since the cam is so different than stock.

[timberwolf]

I am with you, changing the headers/exhaust system is a painful task, uninstalling and reinstalling has several four letter words attached to the task.

Which part being the most tedious? I was thinking of doing this over the winter with no rush. I also need to send out my side panels that have yellowed from the the cat heat.

Also it might be nice to do a sounds comparison especially if the power is a moot point... I've heard the Belangers sounds deeper and less tiney.

[Jack B]

Which part being the most tedious? I was thinking of doing this over the winter with no rush. I also need to send out my side panels that have yellowed from the the cat heat.

Also it might be nice to do a sounds comparison especially if the power is a moot point... I've heard the Belangers sounds deeper and less tiney.

Flatout did a blow-by-blow thread of the install, I believe it goes back to 2014 or 2015. There is no one part that is extremely difficult, it is the number or parts of the equation. Here is a short list/summary of the main elements of the removal/install:

Remove side sills, requires rear wheel removal. (I posted some pics of the hidden fasteners in an old post)

Remove cross brace, valve covers, fan box, air-box and over-flow bottle.

Remove mufflers, cats, O2 sensors and j-pipes. (Mark their front/rear positions relative to the sills)

Remove headers, this requires lifting the engine approx an inch.

Now reinstall everything, prior to starting the re-install make sure the mating pipe sizes (new parts) are correct for the cat and/or muffler if using existing parts.

The Belangers are going to be easier, the 5-to-5 flange on the ARH is going to be more difficult. Also, a lift makes it far easier.

[Vipes]

Subscribed! This is great, can't wait to see the results. I've been told that the ARH is about 30 rwhp more than the belanger which is why I went with the ARH.

[Quasar Z]

I would be shocked if there was a 30 rwhp difference between the Belanger headers/exhaust and the ARH headers/exhaust. That would either imply very little gain with the Belangers or an incredible gain with the ARH, as a reasonable expectation would be a total gain of 30 rwhp from headers/exhaust with a +/- gain based on size and design.

[Jack B]

This is the reason for this thread, there is way too much innuendo on this topic, the bad part is, I am in Ohio and will not be able to get the car to the dyno until March. I should have the ARH parts installed in January, at least we will have an exhaust sound comparison.



I would be shocked if there was a 30 rwhp difference between the Belanger headers/exhaust and the ARH headers/exhaust. That would either imply very little gain with the Belangers or an incredible gain with the ARH, as a reasonable expectation would be a total gain of 30 rwhp from headers/exhaust with a +/- gain based on size and design.

[viper04]

Nice! keep us posted on this. Very intrested in seeing the results.

[serpent]

I noticed AC Performance uses ARH headers too, with the same 1-3/4” tubes for their H/C/E upgrade.
http://www.acperformance.net/gen5-700rwhp-package

[FLATOUT]

I would be shocked if there was a 30 rwhp difference between the Belanger headers/exhaust and the ARH headers/exhaust. That would either imply very little gain with the Belangers or an incredible gain with the ARH, as a reasonable expectation would be a total gain of 30 rwhp from headers/exhaust with a +/- gain based on size and design.

Yeah definitely not lol. Although I prefer ARH's the gains it's nothing like that. M&M, ARH,Belanger all make GREAT headers for Viper, it all comes down to the few small differences that would make someone choose either way.

Jack I did a bunch of back to back tests a few years ago on my Gen IV with ARH's and M&M's and the findings were fun. I won't say anything since you are about to embark on your own journey lol.

As for warping flanges, it is rare but we have seen it on both mfg's as Jack mentioned. I can tell you that it is very rare and both mfg's have outstanding customer support when it comes to those kinds of issues.

Andy

[FLATOUT]

Please no one buy that knock off Chinese rip off junk. Probably just me but I hate that they came in and stole the IP from a US company and then turn around and sell that stuff to customers here in the states.

Andy


Nice thread, great that so many are engaged!
Thank you for many nice tips on mounting Belanger and ARH Headers, with great pictures and guides.
The problem with the 5 flange is also present on my headers (Uses 3/8"-16x1" Allen SS bolt X10pcs).
They look like ARH, cost 1/3 of the price of ARH, The quality looks very good, (25% off price when I bougt it for 1000usd with Shipping) see link from ebay).
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Maximizer-header-for-Dodge-Viper-5th-Gen-2013-2017/172544769094?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649
They are sold from the United States.
The reason for the flanges is not straight is the SS TIG welding that "pulls"the tensions in the steel.
So they should have been checked, grinded after welding before selling it to the customer.
I had 1.5 mm opening on the ends of the "5 pipe flange", but after grinding the opening was down to 0.2mm. The graphite / steel gasket of 1.5mm thicknes will seal such a 0,2mm opening ( I believe).
I Will try to ( if enough space) weld in a flex pipe before a V clamp, and hanger in the end of the Belanger HF Cat 3" I bought from Ryan.
So the Belanger is hanging in two fasten points.
It will be some cutting and welding, and bad words, but believe the ARH headers (look alike) +Belanger 3" HF Cated Exhaust +Arrow controller, will be a nice upgrade for My ACR-E

Good luck with the testing.
When I look at ARH Compared to Belanger Headers, not all 10 tubes are same lenght on ARH, on the belanger it seems like all 10 pipes are same lenght,
I thought it was a advantage that all the tubes were at same lenght ? is there anyone who can explain ?
If it turns out that ARH is better, what about that theory? ( Maybee that theory is for Turbo engine, or two stroke engines..)

[Jack B]

Andy

Just a guess, since both ARH and Belangers stay center aligned in the sill turnout, they might be annealed in the welding jig. That may be one diff over the offshore product.

Maybe not apples-to-apples, but, I just bought a Chinese electric jack on amazon. I made a mistake and did not see it was shipping from China. It came in broken and I have no recourse. I will post the company's response, it will make you wonder or maybe laugh.


Please no one buy that knock off Chinese rip off junk. Probably just me but I hate that they came in and stole the IP from a US company and then turn around and sell that stuff to customers here in the states.

Andy

[99RT10]

Andy

Just a guess, since both ARH and Belangers stay center aligned in the sill turnout, they might be annealed in the welding jig. That may be one diff over the offshore product.

Maybe not apples-to-apples, but, I just bought a Chinese electric jack on amazon. I made a mistake and did not see it was shipping from China. It came in broken and I have no recourse. I will post the company's response, it will make you wonder or maybe laugh.


Amazon should take responsibility. Otherwise, ban that seller from the site.



Yeah definitely not lol. Although I prefer ARH's the gains it's nothing like that. M&M, ARH,Belanger all make GREAT headers for Viper, it all comes down to the few small differences that would make someone choose either way.

Jack I did a bunch of back to back tests a few years ago on my Gen IV with ARH's and M&M's and the findings were fun. I won't say anything since you are about to embark on your own journey lol.

As for warping flanges, it is rare but we have seen it on both mfg's as Jack mentioned. I can tell you that it is very rare and both mfg's have outstanding customer support when it comes to those kinds of issues.

Andy


Hey Andy, I am curious of a coupe things. Check PMs.

[Jack B]

Amazon should take responsibility. Otherwise, ban that seller from the site.

I do not see any method to get Amazon involved, they direct me to the suppliers return policy. Here is the latest response, the value is approx $100 and the sealed controller is defective. This is my sixth request for a full refund:

"Dear,Thank you very much for your prompt reply,It is very nice of you. As stand on your point,I totally understand your feelings. Pls accept my sincere apologize . But dear,Please do understand our work difficulty and we really have no profit on this product just earn a good customer service. hope you can forgive us and what about both we make each other half way and we would like to issue a refund of $20USD as our compensation and you can keep the items,Is it acceptable for you ? Much highly appreciate for your understanding. You are a very kind person,Hope there will be more chance to serve you. Look forward to hearing from you soon. I hope you have a most happy and prosperous New Year ! Best regards Anne"

[Steve M]

This is the reason for this thread, there is way too much innuendo on this topic, the bad part is, I am in Ohio and will not be able to get the car to the dyno until March. I should have the ARH parts installed in January, at least we will have an exhaust sound comparison.

Hope your garage is heated, cuz damn it's cold right now.

Definitely interested in your results.

[outnumbered]

I do not see any method to get Amazon involved, they direct me to the suppliers return policy. Here is the latest response, the value is approx $100 and the sealed controller is defective. This is my sixth request for a full refund:

"Dear,Thank you very much for your prompt reply,It is very nice of you. As stand on your point,I totally understand your feelings. Pls accept my sincere apologize . But dear,Please do understand our work difficulty and we really have no profit on this product just earn a good customer service. hope you can forgive us and what about both we make each other half way and we would like to issue a refund of $20USD as our compensation and you can keep the items,Is it acceptable for you ? Much highly appreciate for your understanding. You are a very kind person,Hope there will be more chance to serve you. Look forward to hearing from you soon. I hope you have a most happy and prosperous New Year ! Best regards Anne"

Jack, that was my daily dose of humor.:smilielol:

[Jack B]

Hope your garage is heated, cuz damn it's cold right now.

Definitely interested in your results.

Definitely heated, on the positive side, locally we only have about a foot of snow, Erie, Pa had 70 inches of snow. The east coast is supposed to get the winter storm of the century this weekend and the average temp across the country is 11 degrees.

[camarochevy1970]

Jack where is the dyno that you use?

[Jack B]

Jack where is the dyno that you use?

It will be the "Big Dog" dyno, located outside of Hudson, Ohio. I would also like to find a hub dyno to compare with the Dynojet.

[Jack B]

I have the sills off on both sides, here are some pics of the open sills:

This shows a Belanger J-pipe that reduces from 3"OD down to 2-1/2" OD. I do not think thank anyone really knows whether there is a hp gain with the 3" versus the the 2-1/2". If you look close you can see the Corsa muffler had the inlet reduced from 3" down to 2-1/2".

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This picture shows the whole J-pipe. The Arrow pcm does not need the rear O2's, therefore, I am removing them. I do not know why both Belanger and ARH install an O2 bung when this J-pipe, is also a cat delete pipe.

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The following two pictures show a condition created by multiple sill removals, the lower interior sill radiant barrier has come loose. The barrier is glued to the inside of the sill. When this happens the insulation is loose in the sill and when you engine brake the exhaust tone is tinny.

This shows the barrier inside the sill

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This shows the barrier removed. You can see the adhesive spots inside the sill that held the barrier:

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[heath1225]

Subscribed!

[Stealth78]

Just so there is no confusion here, Corsa offers two separate set-up's. One with the 2.5" inlet and another with a 3" inlet. You need to specify when ordering, I myself have the 3" inlet. At your power level I believe you are going to see a large increase in HP as the 2.5" reduction has to be creating a bottle neck. So your results are by no means going to show a true difference in the headers alone. Although this should be fantastic for your own benefit.

[olebrum]

Your corsa on the picture also have the 3" pipe conection, it is a 3"to2,5" adapter in the corsa also. so it seems like you have double up with adapters.
Take them away (both) go all the way/ straight 3"

[ViperPete]

My radiant heat barriers rattle like a mo fo on my car since the header install. I really need to pull the sills off and glue them back on. What kind of glue do you recommend?

[Jack B]

Your corsa on the picture also have the 3" pipe conection, it is a 3"to2,5" adapter in the corsa also. so it seems like you have double up with adapters.
Take them away (both) go all the way/ straight 3"

That is the plan. I had one of the original G5 Belanger systems, I was told the j-pipe is a little diff than a G4, there were no 3" j-pipes early-on and the Corsa inlet is 3", therefore, the reason for the unwanted reduction.

It appears easy to correct, however, not so. You not only have fix the OD issue, you have to worry about horizontal positioning because you only have about +/- 1/2" adjustment to align the exhaust outlet in the sill.

[Jack B]

Just so there is no confusion here, Corsa offers two separate set-up's. One with the 2.5" inlet and another with a 3" inlet. You need to specify when ordering, I myself have the 3" inlet. At your power level I believe you are going to see a large increase in HP as the 2.5" reduction has to be creating a bottle neck. So your results are by no means going to show a true difference in the headers alone. Although this should be fantastic for your own benefit.

My car was the first production mule car that Corsa based their design on. You are looking at Corsa numero uno for the viper. Look on their website, that is this car.

I agree with you, but, I am fairly sure Lew Belanger will say there is no power gain with the 3". That is why this comparison is so interesting.

[timberwolf]

My car was the first production mule car that Corsa based their design on. You are looking at Corsa numero uno for the viper. Look on their website, that is this car.

I agree with you, but, I am fairly sure Lew Belanger will say there is no power gain with the 3". That is why this comparison is so interesting.

So your car was the whistler!

[Jack B]

So your car was the whistler!

There was a preproduction car that they used for the first mock-up, however, when they used my car the sound level was too great and they they toned it down. They couldn't figure out why the decibel level increased so dramatically from the factory mule to the production model.

[Jack B]

The sills are pulled and the following have been removed: airbox, fan box, overflow bottle, xbrace, valve covers, exhaust pipes, windshield fascia/cover, and mufflers. I have the Belanger's pulled off on the drivers side and have the drivers side ARH (upper piece) installed. Here are some observations:

1. The Belanger's are actually harder to remove. You must jack up the engine. I believe you can install and/or remove the driver's side ARH without jacking the engine. Removing the valve covers and a couple of the plugs is required.

2. Bolting the upper and lower ARH together is going to be a task. All the bolts can be reached, however, three of them are going to be blind reaches. I used high temp red gasket seal to position the ARH flange gasket.

3. I am not sure, but, it looks like the ARH j-pipe may be long enough mate with the muffler. I will not know till the upper and lower header parts are bolted together.

[olebrum]

I`m under my car doing a similar installation now, with cutting and welding, I think it is more easy to reache the bolt in the upper and lower "5 bolt flange" if I do not put in the bolt for the Headers to Head mount before getting the two parts bolted together. ( Headers to head bolts fitted after 2 parts is became one).
This way the headers flange cane be turned / moved a litle bit all ways to reach the bolts. ( be careful not scratching the alu Head surface.)

[olebrum]

Jack B: Are you using a original type Exhaust (to head) gasket, if so will the size of the ports in the ARH Headers flange get sealed properly when using this standard gasket.
look spessially at the enlarged ring in the gasket (witch will be conpreseed when tighten the bolts) , this can be checked if you put the gasket on the headers.

[Scot@Prefix]

Hi Pete,
We have the sourced the same glue as the factory and usually have it in stock.
Every time we pull a rocker panel we check to see if the shields are loose and glue them if needed.
See it all the time, we pull a lot of rocker panels!
Scot

[KB Viper]

Hi Pete,
We have the sourced the same glue as the factory and usually have it in stock.
Every time we pull a rocker panel we check to see if the shields are loose and glue them if needed.
See it all the time, we pull a lot of rocker panels!
Scot

are you selling the glue?

[Scot@Prefix]

Yes we do sell the glue, dont know the price off the top of my head.

[Steve M]

Hi Pete,
We have the sourced the same glue as the factory and usually have it in stock.
Every time we pull a rocker panel we check to see if the shields are loose and glue them if needed.
See it all the time, we pull a lot of rocker panels!
Scot

I'll preface this by saying I'm going to sound like a dick, but I have to ask: if you see the loose shields all the time, why would you want to use the same glue to stick them back on? Isn't that asking for another failure? I'd be curious to know if there was a product out there that might work better...the heat shield was loose on my driver's side rocker panel on my '08, and I had to resort to using high temp RTV since I couldn't think of any other way to fix it at the time.

[Scot@Prefix]

We currently are working on a customer car with a 9.0L in it and found some interesting results with the exhaust system.
The car currently has belanger headers, mid pipes that have cats. The mid pipes go from 3 to 2.5" to connect with the factory muffler that is currently installed. Upon reviewing this we felt this was restricting the engine.
We did a quick mock together setup to do a back to back test, threw on 3" belanger mid pipes without cats, and some 3" ARH mufflers and ended up picking up 30 hp at the rear wheels, not just at peak but the entire length of the power curve.

On our mule car for the 9.0L Xtreme we made up a custom setup with ARH headers, a 3.5" collector, no cats, custom 3.5" ARH mufflers and 3.5" turnouts/tips, figuring we were at the limits of a 3" dual exhaust system with the cubic inch and power level. From what we can see the 3" dual exhaust is still capable of supporting the hp/cubic inch.

No matter which system you choose, they all have their pros/cons and a lot of personal preference.
Keep in mind the engine is an air pump, the more efficient it is to get air in/out the more power it will make.

[J TNT]

I also used High Temp silicone , using the same rational that the original didn't last .

[Jack B]

i have the headers attached but not torqued. I was able to get the flange together, here was the sequence:

As earlier stated use a thin coat of red high temp sealant to fasten the the flange gasket to the lower half, this solves the problem of trying to align the gasket.

1. Start the two bolts next to the engine from under the car, only start a few threads.

2. Start the two bolts that are visible on the fender side from above, again only start a couple of threads. You now have four bolts started, that was the easy part.

3. Remove the starter, this allows access to back side flange bolt. Remove the power leads to the starter before you remove the two hold-down bolts. Leave the control wire attached till you remove the bolts, the connector lock on the control wire is easier to defeat with the starter removed. Obviously the battery is disconnected.

This is the shorter bolt (3/4"), it is needed to clear the pipe. If you have about a quarter inch separation between the flanges you can start this bolt, if not, loosen the flange bolts a little more. Remove

That is where I am at, I just need to get the front bolt stated, the passenger side should be a little easier. The collector lines up perfectly in the center of the turn-out hole.





I`m under my car doing a similar installation now, with cutting and welding, I think it is more easy to reache the bolt in the upper and lower "5 bolt flange" if I do not put in the bolt for the Headers to Head mount before getting the two parts bolted together. ( Headers to head bolts fitted after 2 parts is became one).
This way the headers flange cane be turned / moved a litle bit all ways to reach the bolts. ( be careful not scratching the alu Head surface.)

[ACR]

We currently are working on a customer car with a 9.0L in it and found some interesting results with the exhaust system.
The car currently has belanger headers, mid pipes that have cats. The mid pipes go from 3 to 2.5" to connect with the factory muffler that is currently installed. Upon reviewing this we felt this was restricting the engine.
We did a quick mock together setup to do a back to back test, threw on 3" belanger mid pipes without cats, and some 3" ARH mufflers and ended up picking up 30 hp at the rear wheels, not just at peak but the entire length of the power curve.

On our mule car for the 9.0L Xtreme we made up a custom setup with ARH headers, a 3.5" collector, no cats, custom 3.5" ARH mufflers and 3.5" turnouts/tips, figuring we were at the limits of a 3" dual exhaust system with the cubic inch and power level. From what we can see the 3" dual exhaust is still capable of supporting the hp/cubic inch.

No matter which system you choose, they all have their pros/cons and a lot of personal preference.
Keep in mind the engine is an air pump, the more efficient it is to get air in/out the more power it will make.

No cats yielded 30+, that's not a surprise. It's not a result of the 3 to 2.5"

[Jack B]

No cats yielded 30+, that's not a surprise. It's not a result of the 3 to 2.5"

Pretty sure Scott is saying it is the combination of the two. A lot of cars with headers are going to reduce down to 2-1/2", that is the path of lease resistance when you are doing an install. It probably is more common than not. My car had one adapter going from 3" down to to 2-1/2" at the end of the J-pipe and a second adapter on the Corsa muffle going tom 3" down to 2-1/2".

[Scot@Prefix]

No cats yielded 30+, that's not a surprise. It's not a result of the 3 to 2.5"

We are actually going to do some dyno testing tomorrow on the engine dyno.
All tests are going to be done a 9.0L Xtreme package using ARH headers with a 3" collector.
Baseline test will be 3" J pipe with no cats, and no mufflers
Next test will be J pipe with ARH cat reduced down to 2.5" with no mufflers
Third test will be J pipe with ARH cat reduced down to 2.5" with a factory muffler

This way we can actually see how much each piece affects HP

I will try to get some pics of the setups for reference and let the board know the results!

[Steve M]

We are actually going to do some dyno testing tomorrow on the engine dyno.
All tests are going to be done a 9.0L Xtreme package using ARH headers with a 3" collector.
Baseline test will be 3" J pipe with no cats, and no mufflers
Next test will be J pipe with ARH cat reduced down to 2.5" with no mufflers
Third test will be J pipe with ARH cat reduced down to 2.5" with a factory muffler

This way we can actually see how much each piece affects HP

I will try to get some pics of the setups for reference and let the board know the results!

1. Will you be measuring AFR between setups?
2. If measuring AFR, will you alter the calibration to ensure the AFR is the same among the different setups, or will it just be the same calibration for all 3?

[Scott_in_fl]

^^^ Looking forward to these results!! Should be some good info.

[GTSilver]

We are actually going to do some dyno testing tomorrow on the engine dyno.
All tests are going to be done a 9.0L Xtreme package using ARH headers with a 3" collector.
Baseline test will be 3" J pipe with no cats, and no mufflers
Next test will be J pipe with ARH cat reduced down to 2.5" with no mufflers
Third test will be J pipe with ARH cat reduced down to 2.5" with a factory muffler

This way we can actually see how much each piece affects HP

I will try to get some pics of the setups for reference and let the board know the results!

Scott have you looked at a bigger ID for headers between 2"-2.25" ? Don't you think it'll help with the 9.0l Xtreme rather than 1 7/8" ?

Thanks
Yousif

[Scot@Prefix]

1. Will you be measuring AFR between setups?
2. If measuring AFR, will you alter the calibration to ensure the AFR is the same among the different setups, or will it just be the same calibration for all 3?

The computer will read the O2 sensor and adjust air/fuel to keep it the same for all testing. With using the stock PCM we adjust the overall and the computer still has the ability to adjust air/fuel as it would as a stock setup.

[Scot@Prefix]

Scott have you looked at a bigger ID for headers between 2"-2.25" ? Don't you think it'll help with the 9.0l Xtreme rather than 1 7/8" ?

Thanks
Yousif

Hi Yousif,
Since the Viper is a V10 it is a different animal than a typical V8, its better to use a medium size primary tube size.
The 9.0L is 550 cubic inch which is 55 cubic inch per cylinder, on the same application a V8 would be 68.75 cubic inch per cylinder.
So there is less air moving through each primary tube, compared to the same application in a V8.
Putting too large a tube would cause the exhaust flow to become lazy and possibly cause problems with reversion.
Thanks
Scot

[Jack B]

The first five bolts on the flange were not real difficult. I am having a problem with the driver's side front flange bolt. the only way I can access that bolt is by peeling back the wheel well liner. i can now access the bolt, just having a hard time starting it. I am going to bevel the bolt tomorrow, that should center it in the hole.


I`m under my car doing a similar installation now, with cutting and welding, I think it is more easy to reache the bolt in the upper and lower "5 bolt flange" if I do not put in the bolt for the Headers to Head mount before getting the two parts bolted together. ( Headers to head bolts fitted after 2 parts is became one).
This way the headers flange cane be turned / moved a litle bit all ways to reach the bolts. ( be careful not scratching the alu Head surface.)

[IHOP]

Subscribed!

Do you know wha the stock muffler is? Is it a 3inch hookup all the way?

[stradman]

We are actually going to do some dyno testing tomorrow on the engine dyno.
All tests are going to be done a 9.0L Xtreme package using ARH headers with a 3" collector.
Baseline test will be 3" J pipe with no cats, and no mufflers
Next test will be J pipe with ARH cat reduced down to 2.5" with no mufflers
Third test will be J pipe with ARH cat reduced down to 2.5" with a factory muffler

This way we can actually see how much each piece affects HP

I will try to get some pics of the setups for reference and let the board know the results!

Look forward to seeing the results Scot. This way I can balance up an opinion in my head about which way we need to go when you guys get my car in April/May.

[Jack B]

Do you know wha the stock muffler is? Is it a 3inch hookup all the way?

2.5 all the way

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

I find it hard to believe this has not been done yet?


It WAS done....by Arrow Racing. One reason why Belangers were chosen by SRT for the Viper Comp Coupes and more....

SRT also first chose Belanger (yes they did) for the ACR-X for Viper Cup! However, Belanger could/would not meet the short production deadline needed for SRT to sell the first 25 Cup Cars, and AR agreed to meet it. As I recall AR completed 17 of the needed first25 on time. And since the "Spec Racer" ACR-X required all competitors to run the same equipment, AR got the nod, even tho they were 2nd choice. Fact. The ACR-X is a stripped-down race car, not street legal, and most every heat-sensitive vulnerable component was removed for production, due to weight targets.

Other Info: The Velocity Cone "pickle" in Belangers is "OPTIONAL" if you dont want it for a FI or stroker/etc. Belanger will happily delete this costly item for you. The "pickle" is a torque-bonus for otherwise OE or slightly--modded motors, giving better low and mid-range TQ.

Subjectively, does Tone/Note/pitch matter? Heat Matter? Look at the WHOLE picture. GOOD ON YA for doing the comparo

[Jack B]

Jon

That is old news, show me a side-by-side Belanger/ARH dyno comparison for a G5, or better yet for a HC car or a 9L car.




It WAS done....by Arrow Racing. One reason why Belangers were chosen by SRT for the Viper Comp Coupes and more....

SRT also first chose Belanger (yes they did) for the ACR-X for Viper Cup! However, Belanger could/would not meet the short production deadline needed for SRT to sell the first 25 Cup Cars, and AR agreed to meet it. As I recall AR completed 17 of the needed first25 on time. And since the "Spec Racer" ACR-X required all competitors to run the same equipment, AR got the nod, even tho they were 2nd choice. Fact. The ACR-X is a stripped-down race car, not street legal, and most every heat-sensitive vulnerable component was removed for production, due to weight targets.

Other Info: The Velocity Cone "pickle" in Belangers is "OPTIONAL" if you dont want it for a FI or stroker/etc. Belanger will happily delete this costly item for you. The "pickle" is a torque-bonus for otherwise OE or slightly--modded motors, giving better low and mid-range TQ.

Subjectively, does Tone/Note/pitch matter? Heat Matter? Look at the WHOLE picture. GOOD ON YA for doing the comparo

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

Agreed, not all new.....but the test base of 9L or blown/boosted G5s is a pretty tiny portion of the relevant owner-audience here! Good On Those testing extreme limits! If you choose Belangers on these extremes, delete the pickle. And choose 3" or even 3.5"

[Jack B]

Agreed, not all new.....but the test base of 9L or blown/boosted G5s is a pretty tiny portion of the relevant owner-audience here! Good On Those testing extreme limits! If you choose Belangers on these extremes, delete the pickle. And choose 3" or even 3.5"

There are still no published side-by-side comparisons (Belanger/ARH) on a chassis dyno for a stock G5. Take a look in this thread, there are all kinds of comments and unanswered questions about what works. i am a Belanger fan since the G1, however, I see a lot of things I like about the ARH design, but, the install is not pleasant, that is why they make a one piece option.

Also keep in mind when Arrow publishes an engine dyno number there are no cats or mufflers, it is 3" straight out. These 9L cars do not like cats or any type of restriction, therefore, the engine and chasis dyno numbers are far different and it is not drive train losses. I am sure they will develop a solution for the exhausts on the 9L cars that pulls the engine and chassis dyno numbers closer together.

[Camfab]

This testing is going to be super interesting. One thing that should be noted is that every engine combination requires its own specific header needs. Meaning the results of one combination on a specific engine are not necessarily indicative of what your engine may require. Granted most people don't have the financial means or the desire to do the testing which results in the ultimate combination of primary diameter, possible step diameter, length, and collector style, diameter, as well as length. Regardless of that, this will be a excellent point of information on a specific engine that will show which of two commercially available headers are best for it's needs. Nice work Jack, as many GEN V owners love to claim their favorite, you seem to be the only non shop individual conducting any real world testing. Can't wait to see the results!

[Jack B]

I solved the divers side install, the only difference in the install (drivers side) over the Belanger's is that the starter has to be removed and the and rear half of the wheel well liner has to be peeled back. Plus it needs some slightly modified tools. I will do a blow-by-blow when it is all buttoned up.


This testing is going to be super interesting. One thing that should be noted is that every engine combination requires its own specific header needs. Meaning the results of one combination on a specific engine are not necessarily indicative of what your engine may require. Granted most people don't have the financial means or the desire to do the testing which results in the ultimate combination of primary diameter, possible step diameter, length, and collector style, diameter, as well as length. Regardless of that, this will be a excellent point of information on a specific engine that will show which of two commercially available headers are best for it's needs. Nice work Jack, as many GEN V owners love to claim their favorite, you seem to be the only non shop individual conducting any real world testing. Can't wait to see the results!

[Voice of Reason]

This testing is going to be super interesting. One thing that should be noted is that every engine combination requires its own specific header needs. Meaning the results of one combination on a specific engine are not necessarily indicative of what your engine may require. Granted most people don't have the financial means or the desire to do the testing which results in the ultimate combination of primary diameter, possible step diameter, length, and collector style, diameter, as well as length. Regardless of that, this will be a excellent point of information on a specific engine that will show which of two commercially available headers are best for it's needs. Nice work Jack, as many GEN V owners love to claim their favorite, you seem to be the only non shop individual conducting any real world testing. Can't wait to see the results!

Eh, yes and no. Belanger and ARH have completely different styles of headers, it’s not like we’re comparing BBG vs ARH headers where the designs are both the same 5 into 1 collector design but different takes on how to get there, we are looking at 2 very different styles here. What works for the 9L should also apply to the Stage 2 H/C cars as well as us lowly Stage 1 cars. The 9L just allows gains to be amplified and will make it easier to see if one design is superior over the other.

Despite my frustrations with getting gaskets to seal I’m squarely in the camp that believes a 5 into 1 collector is a superior design over a tri Y design. Unless I’m mistaken NO ONE else uses a tri Y design for their performance headers when packaging allows for otherwise. I don’t care how many people like the sound their pickle headers produce, I selected my headers for their power. And all I’ve gotten from Viper owners is compliments on how it sounds.

[Camfab]

Eh, yes and no. Belanger and ARH have completely different styles of headers, it’s not like we’re comparing BBG vs ARH headers where the designs are both the same 5 into 1 collector design but different takes on how to get there, we are looking at 2 very different styles here. What works for the 9L should also apply to the Stage 2 H/C cars as well as us lowly Stage 1 cars. The 9L just allows gains to be amplified and will make it easier to see if one design is superior over the other.

Despite my frustrations with getting gaskets to seal I’m squarely in the camp that believes a 5 into 1 collector is a superior design over a tri Y design. Unless I’m mistaken NO ONE else uses a tri Y design for their performance headers when packaging allows for otherwise. I don’t care how many people like the sound their pickle headers produce, I selected my headers for their power. And all I’ve gotten from Viper owners is compliments on how it sounds.

Yes I certainly understand your point, however my point is that every engine combination has differing requirements. I’ve never been a fan of the tri-y design myself, however done right they can provide very good mid range power. My point is that what’s good for his 9L does not mean it’s ideal for a stock or stage one h/c car. Bore, stroke, head work, compression, etc. can have radically differing needs. Just something to keep in mind. Looking forward to the testing...

[lmcgrew79]

I solved the divers side install, the only difference in the install (drivers side) over the Belanger's is that the starter has to be removed and the and rear half of the wheel well liner has to be peeled back. Plus it needs some slightly modified tools. I will do a blow-by-blow when it is all buttoned up.

Just finished installing ARH on my 16 last weekend. Took about 12 hrs including all the heat shielding. We put all the bolts in hand tight first then tightened the 2 toward the rear 1 closes to engine from the bottom and the 1 middle 1 towards fender and front of the car from the top. The 1 toward the very front of the car on the driver side was the worst.

[SlateEd]

Cheers Jack! This is a ton of work you're undertaking and we appreciate you documenting it publicly for everyone to follow along!

Excited to see how it turns out-

[Arizona Vipers]

We are actually going to do some dyno testing tomorrow on the engine dyno.
All tests are going to be done a 9.0L Xtreme package using ARH headers with a 3" collector.
Baseline test will be 3" J pipe with no cats, and no mufflers
Next test will be J pipe with ARH cat reduced down to 2.5" with no mufflers
Third test will be J pipe with ARH cat reduced down to 2.5" with a factory muffler

This way we can actually see how much each piece affects HP

I will try to get some pics of the setups for reference and let the board know the results!

:fpopcorn::fpopcorn::fpopcorn::fpopcorn::fpopcorn:

[Jack B]

I am working on mine when I can find time, I am traveling a lot and probably will not finish till the end of January.

What did you do for the transition from the J-pipe to the muffler. I am assuming you went catless. Do you have any pictures of that transition. I believe I got sort of lucky on mine, the standard 3"OD X 3"ID adapter is going to work. I wonder why the standard ARH j-pipe is not another two inches longer, then, it would not need an adapter for the stock muffler location.



Just finished installing ARH on my 16 last weekend. Took about 12 hrs including all the heat shielding. We put all the bolts in hand tight first then tightened the 2 toward the rear 1 closes to engine from the bottom and the 1 middle 1 towards fender and front of the car from the top. The 1 toward the very front of the car on the driver side was the worst.

[lmcgrew79]

I am working on mine when I can find time, I am traveling a lot and probably will not finish till the end of January.

What did you do for the transition from the J-pipe to the muffler. I am assuming you went catless. Do you have any pictures of that transition. I believe I got sort of lucky on mine, the standard 3"OD X 3"ID adapter is going to work. I wonder why the standard ARH j-pipe is not another two inches longer, then, it would not need an adapter for the stock muffler location.

I actually went with cats because i know of another that has them and passes sound on most road courses that monitor sound. Mine slips right into the factory muffler, then is clamped with the factory clamps. I also tack welded all the joints. Length wasn't an issue.

[Jack B]

I actually went with cats because i know of another that has them and passes sound on most road courses that monitor sound. Mine slips right into the factory muffler, then is clamped with the factory clamps. I also tack welded all the joints. Length wasn't an issue.

That means you reduced down to 2-1/2 in front of the cat?

[Scot@Prefix]

I'll preface this by saying I'm going to sound like a dick, but I have to ask: if you see the loose shields all the time, why would you want to use the same glue to stick them back on? Isn't that asking for another failure? I'd be curious to know if there was a product out there that might work better...the heat shield was loose on my driver's side rocker panel on my '08, and I had to resort to using high temp RTV since I couldn't think of any other way to fix it at the time.

Most of the time we find them loose is from someone taking off a rocker and knocking them loose. Or the other reason is from the factory the glue doesnt get put in the place they prep for it, such as the scuff area or where the E coat was removed.
The biggest thing is scuffing the area to be bonded. Once that is done we havent had any issues.

[Scot@Prefix]

Sorry for the delay in response, been some busy days and was discussing results with manufactures of Catalytic Convertors and wanted to get the results off the chassis dyno for the customer car we are working on.

Engine dyno 9.0L Xtreme with ARH two piece headers with 3" collector:
What we found was that high flow cats with steel cores lowered the engine output by 20hp at the flywheel, over 3" pipes with no cats.
The most interesting thing was it didnt matter what happened after the cat, 3" open pipe, 2 1/2" neck down no muffler or 2 1/2" neck down with a stock muffler did not reduce the power by anymore than one or two HP!!!
The cats are the most important selection on your viper if you are going to run them! After that you can run any muffler!!
Honestly i am still in disbelief over the stock muffler, I expected to have some kind of power loss. Dick told me all along that they did alot of work on the Gen 5 muffler and tried to get as much power out of it as possible!!


Chassis dyno 9.0L Xtreme with Belanger headers:
Originally the car came in with cats and stock mufflers, power on the 9.0L seemed a little low and from not have any of the above data from the other tests, we pulled the exhaust system at the collector flange, threw on some J pipes from the dyno that have no cats and ARH mufflers.
This picked up 30HP over the baseline run, we then regrouped and ran the tests on the engine dyno listed above.
We ended up taking the existing J pipes from the car, put a high flow steel core cat, necked down to 2 1/2 and stock mufflers.
Picked up 20Hp over the original setup, we then tried corsa mufflers and made another run picked up about 2HP over the stock mufflers but it was much louder!


Final thoughts, while we had good results and learned a lot, we are far from knowing it all.
Just because our setup seems to work well with both brands of headers. It may be totally different for another shop, their setup may perform better with one brand over the other. Either way you can't go wrong with either setup, its more of a personal choice such as pepsi or coke.
BTW I prefer Pepsi

[Scott_in_fl]

^^^ Awesome post!!! It looks like on my stock setup that instead of going with the hi-flows and then a straight pipe, that I'll keep the stock muffler and just go with the hi-flows (for the primaries, and I'm ditching the secondaries). It seems this is where the power is gained on the exhaust side of things. And I won't worry about the fact that they reduce to 2 1/2" for the stock muffler. Thanks again.

[Steve M]

Chassis dyno 9.0L Xtreme with Belanger headers:
Originally the car came in with cats and stock mufflers, power on the 9.0L seemed a little low and from not have any of the above data from the other tests, we pulled the exhaust system at the collector flange, threw on some J pipes from the dyno that have no cats and ARH mufflers.
This picked up 30HP over the baseline run, we then regrouped and ran the tests on the engine dyno listed above.
We ended up taking the existing J pipes from the car, put a high flow steel core cat, necked down to 2 1/2 and stock mufflers.
Picked up 20Hp over the original setup, we then tried corsa mufflers and made another run picked up about 2HP over the stock mufflers but it was much louder!


So on the chassis dyno, adding metallic high flow cats caused a 10HP reduction over running no cats, correct? What kind of cats were used in the baseline? Just trying to make sure I understand what you are saying.

Do you have any plans of trying the Belanger vs. ARH headers on the engine dyno since that would be a pretty quick swap? Or would that cause a political shitstorm that is best left to our imagination?

[TrackAire]

So on the chassis dyno, adding metallic high flow cats caused a 10HP reduction over running no cats, correct? What kind of cats were used in the baseline? Just trying to make sure I understand what you are saying.

Do you have any plans of trying the Belanger vs. ARH headers on the engine dyno since that would be a pretty quick swap? Or would that cause a political shitstorm that is best left to our imagination?

When I first looked at headers comparing the Belangers to the ARH's, after a lot of research I came to the conclusion that you're not going to feel 10 or 15 hp up or down when you're over 600 hp. The main reason I was sold on the ARH's was they were stainless steel. I don't know of any OEM's that don't use stainless steel to this day. I also witnessed a Gen 4 with coated Belangers that started to have some minor rust after about 18 months on the car. He bought the car used, so I am not sure who coated them or the quality of the coating (they were the shiny silver ceramic look) but he did live near the ocean in SoCal. Maybe that helped contribute to the rust.

After years of trying different set ups I ended up with ARH's, no cats and stock Gen 4 mufflers. I guess my butt dyno was right after all.....plus I can talk on my cell phone compared to the ACR-X mufflers which I think are made by Borla. Those were painfully loud without cats.

[Scot@Prefix]

So on the chassis dyno, adding metallic high flow cats caused a 10HP reduction over running no cats, correct? What kind of cats were used in the baseline? Just trying to make sure I understand what you are saying.

Do you have any plans of trying the Belanger vs. ARH headers on the engine dyno since that would be a pretty quick swap? Or would that cause a political shitstorm that is best left to our imagination?


Yes you are correct on the chassis dyno the cats caused a 10HP reduction over no cats.
We tested both ARH and and aftermarket brand we carry. Both were new, did not have new belanger cats to compare.

We actually are going to do that comparison, but with a cat i dont think i will see any difference. It's more personal preference neither one would be a bad choice.
I think the better test would be comparing the stock manifolds with factory cats, to either header with cats with stock mufflers.

[J TNT]

Yes you are correct on the chassis dyno the cats caused a 10HP reduction over no cats.
We tested both ARH and and aftermarket brand we carry. Both were new, did not have new belanger cats to compare.

We actually are going to do that comparison, but with a cat i dont think i will see any difference. It's more personal preference neither one would be a bad choice.
I think the better test would be comparing the stock manifolds with factory cats, to either header with cats with stock mufflers.

You read my mind Scott , as to what the Delta is between the factory exhaust manifold compared to headers is at 3000, 4000, 5000 ,and 6000 RPM

[Vette2Viper]

Updates???

[Jack B]

Updates???

I have been traveling, the car is just sitting. I do have the drivers side done and the exhaust pulled on the pass side. So far the ARH is not a lot harder to install, it is just requires more finess and some custom tools.

In the mean time I have the sills out being wrapped. They were wrapped, but, the bottom was not. I also painted the exhaust trim ring with VHT.

[Jack B]

I have the headers installed and started the car this weekend. it did not sound a lot different than the Belanger headers, however, all I could do was idle, the temps were too cold to drive.

So far the biggest differences that i observed were:

A. The installation is more difficult than the Belangers, however, there are a few tricks and tools that that do simplify the install. I had the advantage of doing the install over a period of several weeks allowing me to think the job through. For a first time installer that wants to get the job done quickly, there may be some problems. Personally, i would not do the install without a lift, there are too many parts of the install that require changing body positions from the top to the underside. in summary, the first time is tough, but, now that i have done this install, it would not take me any longer than a Belanger install the second time.

B. The ARH headers will slip in without raising the engine, however, the oem or Belanger headers require the engine raised to remove or install the actual header.

C The ARH headers due to the long tube design do not have much margin for error as far as frame clearance near the engine. I may have a clearance issue, but, will not know until i can apply some torque to the chassis. On the other hand, there is more clearance with the ARH system in the turn-out area.

D. The ARH design does come much closer to the block, motor mounts and the starter, therefore, causing more heat rise where you do not want it.

In the near future i will write the install procedure. The process is the same as the Belanger headers with the exception of the five-into-five flange. In addition, there are already some good "how to" posts on the Belanger install.

Here is a heat profile of the car after is had idled for approx 15 minutes at 40 degree ambient:

31114

I am probably at least a month away from the dyno comparison. I am pulling the trans and installing the closer ratio 5th gear and the .5, 6th gear.

[Arizona Vipers]

I have the headers installed and started the car this weekend. it did not sound a lot different than the Belanger headers, however, all I could do was idle, the temps were too cold to drive.

So far the biggest differences that i observed were:

A. The installation is more difficult than the Belangers, however, there are a few tricks and tools that that do simplify the install. I had the advantage of doing the install over a period of several weeks allowing me to think the job through. For a first time installer that wants to get the job done quickly, there may be some problems. Personally, i would not do the install without a lift, there are too many parts of the install that require changing body positions from the top to the underside. in summary, the first time is tough, but, now that i have done this install, it would not take me any longer than a Belanger install the second time.

B. The ARH headers will slip in without raising the engine, however, the oem or Belanger headers require the engine raised to remove or install the actual header.

C The ARH headers due to the long tube design do not have much margin for error as far as frame clearance near the engine. I may have a clearance issue, but, will not know until i can apply some torque to the chassis. On the other hand, there is more clearance with the ARH system in the turn-out area.

D. The ARH design does come much closer to the block, motor mounts and the starter, therefore, causing more heat rise where you do not want it.

In the near future i will write the install procedure. The process is the same as the Belanger headers with the exception of the five-into-five flange. In addition, there are already some good "how to" posts on the Belanger install.

Here is a heat profile of the car after is had idled for approx 15 minutes at 40 degree ambient:

31114

I am probably at least a month away from the dyno comparison. I am pulling the trans and installing the closer ratio 5th gear and the .5, 6th gear.

Which 5th gear ratio are you going with?

[Jack B]

Which 5th gear ratio are you going with?

You do not have a lot of choices, i believe the only tremec option for the G5 6060 is a .795 5th. You have to be careful the pre G5 6060's have a different cut (gear teeth) then identical G5 gears. This is definitely true for one thru four, thus, I am assuming five and six are similar.

The perfect trans:

1. The 2.66 gear set for 1 thru 4.

2. A 0.8 2nd gear.

3. A 0.5 6th gear.

[Arizona Vipers]

You do not have a lot of choices, i believe the only tremec option for the G5 6060 is a .795 5th. You have to be careful the pre G5 6060's have a different cut (gear teeth) then identical G5 gears. This is definitely true for one thru four, thus, I am assuming five and six are similar.

The perfect trans:

1. The 2.66 gear set for 1 thru 4.

2. A 0.8 2nd gear.

3. A 0.5 6th gear.

Calvo installed the .795 in mine, it's much better than the stock .77, but I'd like something more like .83 to .87. Do you think these could be custom made?

[timberwolf]

Found a pretty decent deal on Belangers headers with no cats. I will slowly install these myself in the coming weeks, and will take photos of my progress. I really appreciate all the info here.

Thanks,

Greg

[ViperGeorge]

Found a pretty decent deal on Belangers headers with no cats. I will slowly install these myself in the coming weeks, and will take photos of my progress. I really appreciate all the info here.

Thanks,

Greg

Remember to insulate the hell out of everything near the headers - main wire harness, O2 wires, ABS lines, EVAP line, Radiator Coolant tank, coolant lines, Fuse box, and anything else near the headers. I even went with Calvo engine mounts as the stock hydraulic mounts might not hold up to the heat (this according to an SRT engineer).

[timberwolf]

Remember to insulate the hell out of everything near the headers - main wire harness, O2 wires, ABS lines, EVAP line, Radiator Coolant tank, coolant lines, Fuse box, and anything else near the headers. I even went with Calvo engine mounts as the stock hydraulic mounts might not hold up to the heat (this according to an SRT engineer).

Since I'm running no cats, it should help with lowering temps. I already have the calvo fuse box shield, and was going to order 20' of the heat wrap and some aeronautics grade zip ties and just double wrap everything. I can always do the engine mounts down the line.

[ViperGeorge]

Since I'm running no cats, it should help with lowering temps. I already have the calvo fuse box shield, and was going to order 20' of the heat wrap and some aeronautics grade zip ties and just double wrap everything. I can always do the engine mounts down the line.

When I had the Bellangers on another car my fuse box started to melt, the inside of the main wire harness melted (8 wires inside even though the outside of the harness looked fine), and the EVAP line melted. I insulated everything after that but would constantly check the insulation. The insulation on the front O2 wires would get crispy and needed to be replaced periodically. On the O2 wires the critical spot is where they go over the frame, this is only an inch or two from the headers. Critical to insulate the wire harnesses especially the ones that go into the fuse box.

I used DEI Cool Tube Extreme on coolant lines and some wires and the DEI Titanium wrap on O2 wires (many, many layers). One thing that helped was the DEI stand-off pipe shields. They clamp to the primary pipes using a radiator type clamp and have an air gap between the pipe and a titanium shield. Position them so that they shield critical components. I used stainless steel wire ties to secure stuff. Home Depot or Lowes sells them.

[Arizona Vipers]

When I had the Bellangers on another car my fuse box started to melt, the inside of the main wire harness melted (8 wires inside even though the outside of the harness looked fine), and the EVAP line melted. I insulated everything after that but would constantly check the insulation. The insulation on the front O2 wires would get crispy and needed to be replaced periodically. On the O2 wires the critical spot is where they go over the frame, this is only an inch or two from the headers. Critical to insulate the wire harnesses especially the ones that go into the fuse box.

I used DEI Cool Tube Extreme on coolant lines and some wires and the DEI Titanium wrap on O2 wires (many, many layers). One thing that helped was the DEI stand-off pipe shields. They clamp to the primary pipes using a radiator type clamp and have an air gap between the pipe and a titanium shield. Position them so that they shield critical components. I used stainless steel wire ties to secure stuff. Home Depot or Lowes sells them.

I was melting everything too. My fusebox and wiring harness looked like someone took a blowtorch to it. Pappy called DEI and explained everything and they said this is the best product they make for protecting our wiring harnesses etc- https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002R51AUK/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
They make it in many sizes. When my motor was at Arrow, I sat inside the engine compartment for three hours covering EVERYTHING head to toe in this stuff. I probably added 15lbs, but it's a necessary evil. Even better is to wrap the headers, i'll do that next time motor is out. Coated for coated the Belanger's are going to be a little hotter than ARH just because they are mild steel vs stainless steel. Good article here- http://428roasters.com/blog/stainless-and-mild-steel-the-throw-down/

Also, Lou Belanger can make you heat shields if you are running Belanger's.

[timberwolf]

One thing that helped was the DEI stand-off pipe shields. They clamp to the primary pipes using a radiator type clamp and have an air gap between the pipe and a titanium shield. Position them so that they shield critical components. I used stainless steel wire ties to secure stuff. Home Depot or Lowes sells them.

George, how many of thos DEI stand off pipe shields would you order? I was thinking of just wrapping the headers in the DEI header wrap to be safe. I know they say wrapping can cause corrosion over time, but screw it...

[Jack B]

Another neat product is the quasi-tube system that uses velcro to form the protective tube, you do not need to disconnect harnesses or hoses with that method. I used that on all the hoses and harness wiring. I used the mat material on the fuse box and frame area where the clutch lines are located.

The ARH headers are very close to the starter. the mat material does a nice job protecting the starter. This should be a must-do area to protect. You can use the factory shield to protect the drivers side motor mount, I do not know if you can shield the pass side motor mount with the ARH headers, they are way too close on the pass side.



When I had the Bellangers on another car my fuse box started to melt, the inside of the main wire harness melted (8 wires inside even though the outside of the harness looked fine), and the EVAP line melted. I insulated everything after that but would constantly check the insulation. The insulation on the front O2 wires would get crispy and needed to be replaced periodically. On the O2 wires the critical spot is where they go over the frame, this is only an inch or two from the headers. Critical to insulate the wire harnesses especially the ones that go into the fuse box.

I used DEI Cool Tube Extreme on coolant lines and some wires and the DEI Titanium wrap on O2 wires (many, many layers). One thing that helped was the DEI stand-off pipe shields. They clamp to the primary pipes using a radiator type clamp and have an air gap between the pipe and a titanium shield. Position them so that they shield critical components. I used stainless steel wire ties to secure stuff. Home Depot or Lowes sells them.

[Jack B]

Calvo installed the .795 in mine, it's much better than the stock .77, but I'd like something more like .83 to .87. Do you think these could be custom made?

I am checking for other options, the .796 gear brings up the rpm's approx 200, at the 4/5 shift.

[Arizona Vipers]

One thing that helped was the DEI stand-off pipe shields. They clamp to the primary pipes using a radiator type clamp and have an air gap between the pipe and a titanium shield. Position them so that they shield critical components. I used stainless steel wire ties to secure stuff.

George, were you able to install these with the headers on the car already?

[ViperGeorge]

George, were you able to install these with the headers on the car already?

Yes, with some bloody fingers.

- - - Updated - - -


Another neat product is the quasi-tube system that uses velcro to form the protective tube, you do not need to disconnect harnesses or hoses with that method. I used that on all the hoses and harness wiring. I used the mat material on the fuse box and frame area where the clutch lines are located.

The ARH headers are very close to the starter. the mat material does a nice job protecting the starter. This should be a must-do area to protect. You can use the factory shield to protect the drivers side motor mount, I do not know if you can shield the pass side motor mount with the ARH headers, they are way too close on the pass side.

The Cool Tubes can be cut and formed around wires and hoses without removing them.

[Jack B]

Yes, with some bloody fingers.

- - - Updated - - -



The Cool Tubes can be cut and formed around wires and hoses without removing them.

I understand about the cool tubes, but, once you cut them they look like sh.t, try the Velcro sleeves you will like them.

[ViperGeorge]

I understand about the cool tubes, but, once you cut them they look like sh.t, try the Velcro sleeves you will like them.

I have used the Velcro sleeves as well. I found that they tended to fray some once cut to size. The cool tubes are also available in different colors.

[Arizona Vipers]

Yes, with some bloody fingers.



LOL I bet! Did you do all 10?

[ViperGeorge]

LOL I bet! Did you do all 10?

No, I only put two on each side, positioned to protect the O2 wires. They are about 4 inches wide by maybe 8 inches long.

[timberwolf]

I understand about the cool tubes, but, once you cut them they look like sh.t, try the Velcro sleeves you will like them.

Do you have a link to what you used?

[Jack B]

Do you have a link to what you used?

I will take a pic of the packaging

[Jack B]

Here are some examples of the Velcro sleeving material.When you cut the sleeving if you put a drop of of super glue on the thread it will keep the thread from fraying and unraveling.

31187

31188

[ViperGeorge]

Here are some examples of the Velcro sleeving material.When you cut the sleeving if you put a drop of of super glue on the thread it will keep the thread from fraying and unraveling.

31187

31188

Good tip with the Super Glue. Hadn't thought of that. I still do prefer the Cool Tube Extremes. They look just as good or better IMO but to each his own.

[Arizona Vipers]

Holley makes a product similar to the DEI firewrap, bother are rated the same 500* continous- https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=earls+black+flame+guard
The DEI stuff is excellent, I'm sure this would be just as good. Maybe one is cheaper than the other I didn't look.

[Jack B]

Good tip with the Super Glue. Hadn't thought of that. I still do prefer the Cool Tube Extremes. They look just as good or better IMO but to each his own.

They both have their place

[Sub Driver]

Did you ever get the final results of this header comparison?

[Jack B]

Did you ever get the final results of this header comparison?

Sort of - the problem was I dyno'ed on a different dyno and Arrow redid the tune, therefore, no good one-to-one comparison. The power ended at up at 689 hp.

[sadil]

Bringing this back from the dead, specifically for ARH headers. My flanges are super warped with the center being high on both sides. I bought them on eBay from another owner. Forgot to mention that part to me I guess.

Anyone have tips on getting it straightened?

The place that does my other flanges said that due to the curve of the tube, their machine won’t be able to seat the header to cut the flange down. Any help is appreciated. I’m in Michigan.

[Jack B]

Find someone with a horizontal precision grinder.

[Whiskey]

Just went through the thread. Surprisingly (and maybe I missed it) I didn't see any dyno comparisons.

[sadil]

Before I do have someone do the work, how much is too much? The gentlemen who sold me the car said they were working fine on his so I’m now I’m a little confused on what is too much? Also, is everyone re-using their OEM gaskets?

[nwa_viper]

Before I do have someone do the work, how much is too much? The gentlemen who sold me the car said they were working fine on his so I’m now I’m a little confused on what is too much? Also, is everyone re-using their OEM gaskets?

I used the factory gasket at the head and ordered copper gaskets from Complete Performance Motorsports to connect the upper & lower together.