Lets play the IF game

[Angleiron]

So lets say the Gen V gains collector car status down the road. How bad of a hit would a Gen V take that was a buy back due to an engine replacement? Would not having the original engine affect the car?

[texasram]

So lets say the Gen V gains collector car status down the road. How bad of a hit would a Gen V take that was a buy back due to an engine replacement? Would not having the original engine affect the car?
The engine issue has pretty much become an anomaly for the gen v. Honestly if there is going to be a difference in value down the line i think it will depend on other factors outside of a branded title.

[ACRSNK]

It will certainly have an effect. How much of an effect remains to be seen.

[Policy Limits]

Who lines up to buy a lemon ? It's been beaten to death. It's hand made and a hit or miss car. If you hit, then you hit. But if you miss, you know the rest...

[FrankBarba]

Just like the Old Hemi's. Original Motor is worth more than replacement, if your going that route.
Resto Mods are beaming just as expensive. I've learned with Dodge / Mopars it will take 20 to
25 years before they are collected by others. Only 1 car in the last 20 years has become a
collector car and it was not made by Dodge / SRT / Chrysler. Just my Opinion. I love my Vipers...

[7TH_SIGN]

When it comes to collectability, I think we can all agree that condition along with matching vins, paint, and other original aspects of the car from the factory will bring in the most appreciated value. This is the one true variable that has remains constant in the collector automobile world. Believing a replaced engine wouldn't have an effect on the value of collectability is rather foolish.

Revisiting your question on just how much it would effect the value is, well, impossible to know at this time. I would imagine that we will have a better understanding on that number once and if the car becomes a sought after collector piece.

[serpent]

When it comes to collectability, I think we can all agree that condition along with matching vins, paint, and other original aspects of the car from the factory will bring in the most appreciated value. This is the one true variable that has remains constant in the collector automobile world. Believing a replaced engine wouldn't have an effect on the value of collectability is rather foolish.

Revisiting your question on just how much it would effect the value is, well, impossible to know at this time. I would imagine that we will have a better understanding on that number once and if the car becomes a sought after collector piece.
Don’t forget mileage. Compare high mileage Ford GTs vs ones with over 20k miles.

[parabs]

If a collector is looking for a museum piece, they likely won’t buy a lemoned/non numbers matching car for their collection.

[catwood]

I've considered this and considered this both as a lemon law car and just an engine replacement. I think it will make a bigger difference on an ACR vs an SRT model. Lemon law will take the highest percentage vs just an engine change even though technically that are the same mechanical condition. I understand that logic but I'm still not sure I agree with why it is. But it is the reality. Van Horn has 3 buy back ACR's and they are heavily marked up for what they paid. I did bid on two at the auction but one was a proxy bid so we never really engaged as it was early AM. The longer you keep it the less it will matter but personally I think that's a long time. One or two years it will do two things. Limit your buyers who are willing, just like now but smaller, and limit the price you can get even though there will be less and less of these out there.

This winter will really tell what's happening on values. I've been shopping quite abit over the last 8 weeks. I missed a new '16 being sold at a 7K loss by $2K and a day. Another new one my offer was rejected but counter offer just above invoice, I've declined. It remains for sale and he'll have it for sometime I suspect. I missed a Voodoo at sticker by 1 day last week. I have an offer out on a private party ACR right now but i'm 2nd in line for another buyer who showed up first but needs a loan. If his loan falls through I'm in. I should know on that one in a day or so.

In general, there are are a few new ones and some flippers that folks are asking ridiculous money. That makes the other that are less look like a deal. But my feeling is this winter this will soften up a bit and continue in the spring. The viper is extremely valuable to this audience. To the non viper nation, it's a cool car some will try it, most won't like it and then sell. They will want the latest and greatest next thing. Having owned 6 different Vipers it's in my blood. But let's be rational. The value is what a buyer will pay when you sell if you sell. The worth is what you get out of it when you own it!

[Policy Limits]

I'm tuned in to Barrett-Jackson live now. On classics and collectibles crossing the stage the commentators sure do mention matching numbers, limited edition/production, racing history/heritage, original paint etc quite a bit.

[Vprbite]

Formreal big money cars, matching numbers will be key. That's just how collectors are.

I think buybacks will still be worth money but they will go to drivers, not pure collectors.

I persoanlly LOVE resto mods but I think it's because I wasn't alive when the 69 chargers came out. For those that were 16 then and couldn't afford one I think original is more desireable. For someone like me, a charger with a Gen IV drivetrain and Viper brakes would be super desireable. A good restomod is expensive but cheaper than a concourse level oroginal.

All that said, my personal opinion is drive it and be happy. I think when you look back on your life you won't regret putting miles on it if it was great time you spent with your wife or kids or even good friends. Maybe I look at things differently because I tried to keep the miles down on my 02 and then almost died in it due to a wreck. So I do have a "you never know what might happen so enjoy it now attitude." Even if I hadn't, I still am having more fun driving my current one than I ever did just looking at my previous one

[Coloviper]

Don’t see there being room to grow much on the GEN V for the future collectibility at current prices. Too many other nice cars in the same priced bracket on the used market. Depends how they hold up over next 5 years and I mean hold up from reliability and build quality standpoints, not resale price.

Now “they” say the Gen 1 will do well in coming years. That may be because if you look in the under $30k used market, there is nowhere near as much similar competition. They could do well as not as many stock, well kept ones available. Parts are becoming a problem but they are still easy to work on and troubleshoot. A Gen IV or Gen V, not so much if it gets into electronics and programming. That is a complex software config in those cars.

Will be interesting to see. Car collecting can be a fickle beast. Timing and condition are everything. Then again demand plays a huge factor. Viper could fade off into obscurity even at 25,000+ units built except for a small fanatical few. I have been an owner for over 10 years now and a fan for over 25. Love the car and will always have a Gen in my possession to drive. Will be interesting to see what happens. Right now, I just don’t have the energy to deal with BS on a newer car, any brand. The issues people seem to be having (nowhere near all) on Gen V just has me saying, no thanks to Russisn Roulette that I might get a good one or a bad one. In my case I am looking elsewhere. Did the Saleen thing for 30 years and then moved on, Viper is looking the same way in a way.

Personally I don’t see a great future for the car as a collector overall and once the main warranty periods of the long term factory extended warranties run out on the Gen V, nobody will find the parts, no real support to real world problems, etc. etc. FCA, the Chinese version of the company or a North Korean version of who ever will own it at that point, will be running from this model. I just do not see the demand to justify any investment in parts, support, etc. after the fact. Dodge is having trouble right now supporting and it just left showrooms. Again I love Viper but so many others do not.

So to answer the OP, no way should anyone waste time on buying a branded, storied car. Not going to be worth it in the end and the head ache for you and the new owner will be paramount in its enjoyment and resale. Non numbers matching might be a collector trigger point, we just don’t know.

[ViperGeorge]

On GM cars from the 60s and 70s GM stamped the VIN into the engine and transmission (I had a numbers matching 70 Chevelle SS396). Ford never did that. On a 60's Mustang the best you can do is see that the forging date on the engine block and heads pre-dates the car's build date. There is no such think as numbers matching on an early Mustang (I have a 68 Shelby GT350).

Now, my question is does anyone know if Dodge actually did stamp the VIN into the block and/or transmission on our Vipers? If they didn't there won't be any numbers matching issue. Personally I doubt they did given the way the factory seemed to work. They simply pulled and engine and installed it in whatever frame was on the line at the time. If they did stamp the engine, when did they stamp it? After some randomly pulled engine was installed?

[Red Snake]

On GM cars from the 60s and 70s GM stamped the VIN into the engine and transmission (I had a numbers matching 70 Chevelle SS396). Ford never did that. On a 60's Mustang the best you can do is see that the forging date on the engine block and heads pre-dates the car's build date. There is no such think as numbers matching on an early Mustang (I have a 68 Shelby GT350).

Now, my question is does anyone know if Dodge actually did stamp the VIN into the block and/or transmission on our Vipers? If they didn't there won't be any numbers matching issue. Personally I doubt they did given the way the factory seemed to work. They simply pulled and engine and installed it in whatever frame was on the line at the time. If they did stamp the engine, when did they stamp it? After some randomly pulled engine was installed?

It's a different situation today. Even if they didn't stamp the VINs on engines, it will be known because of computerized record keeping. If the car got a new engine or was a lemon car, it will be known.

[ViperGeorge]

It's a different situation today. Even if they didn't stamp the VINs on engines, it will be known because of computerized record keeping. If the car got a new engine or was a lemon car, it will be known.

That is true but too many folks have been talking about matching numbers. I don't believe that is really the case with the Viper. Matching numbers means that the VIN stamped on the engine and other major components matches the VIN of the frame. If someone other than the dealer swaps engines (I know at least one person that has done this on a Gen 2) there will be no record of the swap on FCA's computers. In fact how long does FCA keep those records? Will they keep them for 20 years? If an engine is replaced under warranty (not a buy back) it may not be detectable in 10 years or 15 years on the then current FCA computers.

[Scott_in_fl]

Unlike others around here, I do compare this car to the 2005-06 Ford GT when it comes to these types of discussions. Why? Because of the image at the bottom of this post. If you don't think that little square thingy underneath my ACR decal isn't worth much, then you obviously cannot appreciate what it means to have something so uniquely special as a handbuilt American exotic that can compete with anything out there. The Ford GT is such a car, and so is the Viper. As we move towards self-driving cars very quickly, the best muscle cars that America had to offer will become highly desired (spoiler: they already are).

And, when it comes time to value one example next to another, the more "original" a car can remain to its factory "off the dealer floor" condition, the better. Of course, this includes mileage too. So you basically have to refrain from driving it much if you are worried about keeping its value maximized. But where's the fun in that?

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[13COBRA]

Scott, I want what you've been smoking lol

[Scott_in_fl]

^^^ Which part do you take offense to?

That America is the envy of the world? If so, then you need to get out more. Anything uniquely American is highly sought after across the world. Ask anyone who's been to Russia and literally been offered a year's salary from locals to purchase their Levi's or a Mickey Mouse sweatshirt.

That the advent of self-driving cars will push up the values of non-self-driving cars? To be seen, but most likely.

That the Viper and Ford GT are the only "recent era" limited production, handbuilt American sports cars? Do you know of any others?

That the Viper can hang with the best that the world has to offer? This is demonstrably true.

[13COBRA]

^^^ Which part do you take offense to?

That America is the envy of the world? If so, then you need to get out more. Anything uniquely American is highly sought after across the world. Ask anyone who's been to Russia and literally been offered a year's salary from locals to purchase their Levi's or a Mickey Mouse sweatshirt.

That the advent of self-driving cars will push up the values of non-self-driving cars? To be seen, but most likely.

That the Viper and Ford GT are the only "recent era" limited production, handbuilt American sports cars? Do you know of any others?

That the Viper can hang with the best that the world has to offer? This is demonstrably true.


I don't take offense to any of it.

But the Viper is not a Ford GT. Different class of consumers, for the most part.

I hope you're right, but I don't think you are.

[Scott_in_fl]

^^^ You may be right that the Ford GT appealed to a different customer.

The initial appeal of the GT was certainly to the "look at me" buyer. It was the latest new toy, it looked like a race car, had those gull wing doors, and was a rare sight. Those guys likely owned them for a year or three, and then sold it off when the next Gallardo LP-520, 540, 550, 560-4, 580-5 or whatever came out (joking here, but you get the idea).

The car then became owned by enthusiasts for several years.... without any price appreciation.

Prices for FGT did not start going up until about 5 years ago when the market started to realize that naturally aspirated, manual shift cars were being phased out. Nostalgia became en vogue, air-cooled Pcars shot up, and everyone wanted a piece of automotive history sitting on a rack in their garage.

For the recent purchasers who are driving market prices, the FGT provides that nostalgic feeling. It is rare, it is handbuilt, it is American, it takes a skilled driver to operate well, it reminds us that Americans can build a great sports car too, and it will always be cool. The market finally realized that, and the prices are reflective.

I think the current Viper can get there too. Prior Vipers may be a bit too closely tied to the "wife beater with gold chains" owners that sold a Corvette to pick up a cheap used example. But Gen V's have thankfully not fallen into that category (yet... knocking on wood here). And, we're now into an era where people realize this is the last of such cars, so more people are likely intent on holding onto what they have.

If cars like the Gen V ACR-E can reasonably hold their values so that they stay out of the hands of the masses, these can easily be perceived as the next Ford GT by the buyer who wants "rack candy" that reminds us of a bygone era.

[13COBRA]

Again, I hope you're right, but I don't think you are.

[Scott_in_fl]

We never really saw much of this ever before either. Just sayin' :)

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[13COBRA]

We never saw that with the other Gen's because Instagram started in 2010.

[Scott_in_fl]

LOL, yes, I suppose Igram could explain why someone in Korea wants a GTS-R :)

[13COBRA]

LOL, yes, I suppose Igram could explain why someone in Korea wants a GTS-R :)

Not what I meant.

Vipers from all generations have made their way across the pond. There are several members on this forum that prove that.

There just won't be any social media postings, etc from previous generations.


BUT, as far as your statement. Igram could VERY well be the reason someone in Korea wants a new ACR.

[Policy Limits]

Final Extreme ACR cars will hold decent value. Wouldn't be surprised if they shoot up in value down the line, especially since you can't order one anymore. Would be cool psychologically to know that your ride has big value if it happens. But I doubt most would sell in those circumstances because then you'd obviously need to part with the car, which would suck. For a generation of the car that struggled so hard early on in sales, the SE's sure did sell out quickly in the end.....

[Bruce H.]

I can't help but feel sorry for Ralph and Team Viper that really hoped these Gen V's would be bought by those who would drive and track them regularly as they had intended. That's what they were passionate about, why they built and stress tested the car the way they did, and why it performs the way it does. Collectabilty would have been the last thing on their minds, and the car would be a lot less rare if they had only been able to reach more of their intended buyers. Maybe if SRT Motorsports hadn't been axed just as they were finding major success in racing it that plan might have been more successful.

Now Ralph gets to meet many owners only when they finally peel off the car cover and take it to an event for him to dutifully sign it.

I do expect collectors to embrace the Gen V, but hopefully more for the pleasure of occasionally driving and tracking it rather than for an anticipated appreciation in value in the future if they refrain from using it.

[ViperJon]

For a generation of the car that struggled so hard early on in sales, the SE's sure did sell out quickly in the end.....

The sold out to DEALERS quickly. There are still new ones sitting on lots here and there (and not just marked up GTS-R's).

[13COBRA]

Final Extreme ACR cars will hold decent value. Wouldn't be surprised if they shoot up in value down the line, especially since you can't order one anymore. Would be cool psychologically to know that your ride has big value if it happens. But I doubt most would sell in those circumstances because then you'd obviously need to part with the car, which would suck. For a generation of the car that struggled so hard early on in sales, the SE's sure did sell out quickly in the end.....

I'd like to think so. But unless you're a Viper fan, you have no idea the difference between a 1 of 1, and the special editions.


The sold out to DEALERS quickly. There are still new ones sitting on lots here and there (and not just marked up GTS-R's).

100% agree. Much like concerts or sporting events sell out in the matter of minutes... they just sell to people/companies who are going to resell them.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

IF Viper prices go up there are potential downsides. Increased cost of ownership (insurance and loss risk, depreciation due to driving or tracking) could start to negate the enjoyment of the car. You only benefit from the feeling you have a more valuable object in the garage or from selling. As the price rises as does the temptation to sell. Please disregard if money is no object but to many this would be a double edged sword. I’m not saying I want the prices to fall just bringing up these possibly obvious downsides.

[Policy Limits]

The sold out to DEALERS quickly. There are still new ones sitting on lots here and there (and not just marked up GTS-R's).

How many SE's remain unsold? I saw two on the VE site (your car and mine) both listed over msrp

[Policy Limits]

IF Viper prices go up there are potential downsides. Increased cost of ownership (insurance and loss risk, depreciation due to driving or tracking) could start to negate the enjoyment of the car. You only benefit from the feeling you have a more valuable object in the garage or from selling. As the price rises as does the temptation to sell. Please disregard if money is no object but to many this would be a double edged sword. I’m not saying I want the prices to fall just bringing up these possibly obvious downsides.

Age actually helps out the owner in my state. You only pay quarterly excise tax on a vehicle ten years old or newer. After ten years the tax stops.