Cheapest place to buy ACR CCB front rotors

[ek1]

Any advice? I figured I have about 3 track days left on my rotors as they are starting to eat the pads.

I remember seeing a post from Mark @ Woodhouse earlier this year saying rotors dropped in price, but I'm wondering what the current lowest price is?

[Space Truckin]

You might try RB Performance Brakes, KB Viper has used their Big Brake Kit w fantastic results...FWIW

http://www.racingbrake.com/category-s/7424.htm

[mjorgensen]

Any advice? I figured I have about 3 track days left on my rotors as they are starting to eat the pads.

I remember seeing a post from Mark @ Woodhouse earlier this year saying rotors dropped in price, but I'm wondering what the current lowest price is?

Current retail is $2525 each, I can discount from that if you need some, shows there are plenty available.

[ek1]

You might try RB Performance Brakes, KB Viper has used their Big Brake Kit w fantastic results...FWIW

http://www.racingbrake.com/category-s/7424.htm

That's exactly my goal. Now that I have an idea how long my stock rotors last for me, I want to compare the annual cost of running stock vs. RB and go from there. There are many issues to consider - for example, voiding the warranty due to caliper replacement, losing the parking brake when replacing rear rotors, etc. There is also a consideration of how long I will keep tracking the ACR. I don't think it will last more than 3-4 full seasons without blowing up something major and I don't really want to be inside it when that happens. As cars become faster, I may get another primary track car or a full race car and retire the ACR from track duty. Lots of things to consider and calculate, but first I need to find the lowest price for OEM rotors

[str5010]

Not much that is quick is going to last 3-4 seasons without some considerable maintenance, especially off the showroom floor.

Not to derail your thread but I'm interested to see your cost analysis with the ACR-E.

[dmann]

speaking wtih ignorance but..Can these rotors not be turned or resurfaced?

[ek1]

speaking wtih ignorance but..Can these rotors not be turned or resurfaced?

Not to my knowledge, because CCB rotor wear limits are measured by thickness / weight. Once they drop down to a certain level, you have to replace them. My rotors actually have minimum thickness and weight printed on them, so I use a digital caliper to determine if they are ready to go to CCB rotor heaven or not. There is a lot of science behind CCB rotors, just watch this awesome video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_3PebbkGpo. In addition to friction-related wear, unlike iron rotors, CCB rotors become a heat sink and do not transfer heat to the hub as much as iron rotors do. Ceramic material can sustain much higher temps than iron without losing it's qualities, which is what prevents brake fade in CCBs. At some point though CCB rotors may become so hot that their material starts reacting with oxygen and burning out, which shortens the light span of the rotor. This is why I regret not using brake cooling ducts this season.

I have seen CCB rotors refurbished by replacing the ceramic disc and keeping the hat (i.e. the center part that mounts tot he hub), but it's not a common thing yet. Maybe Racing Brake allows you to do that.

[ek1]

Not much that is quick is going to last 3-4 seasons without some considerable maintenance, especially off the showroom floor.

Not to derail your thread but I'm interested to see your cost analysis with the ACR-E.

The spreadsheet is coming about a month after the season is over. Sometime around Thanksgiving. I am doing track weekends back to back all the way to mid-November, going to a few manufacturer & dealer events and SEMA in between, and STILL doing 110% at my 2 full time jobs (the actual one and the family one). The rat race is crazy.

I can tell you already - it's A LOT. And by that I mean....MANY thousands. Anyone who thinks "tracking a Viper is cheap because it's a Dodge" will be in for a rude awakening :)

[Racingswh]

The spreadsheet is coming about a month after the season is over. Sometime around Thanksgiving. I am doing track weekends back to back all the way to mid-November, going to a few manufacturer & dealer events and SEMA in between, and STILL doing 110% at my 2 full time jobs (the actual one and the family one). The rat race is crazy.

I can tell you already - it's A LOT. And by that I mean....MANY thousands. Anyone who thinks "tracking a Viper is cheap because it's a Dodge" will be in for a rude awakening :)

I will just turn away from it!! :) Do we really have to know???

[str5010]

Fortunately my 08 hasn't been too bad relative to my previous cars. It pays to be a slow driver?

[ek1]

I will just turn away from it!! :) Do we really have to know???

I am a computer engineer by trade, so not knowing pains me more than knowing :). But I know seeing the bottom number will hurt a lot.

[ek1]

Fortunately my 08 hasn't been too bad relative to my previous cars. It pays to be a slow driver?

You are not a slow driver, you choose to drive slower. A slow driver is a person who is trying to go fast, but ends up overdriving the car and still going slow.

[09 ACR]

I would change to the Girodisc steel replament. The complete set up is less then CCM rotor replacement. I am not sure how many times a year you run but I will guess one set of front pads a year for $300. Would be your only cost for brakes

For yearly cost I will tell you it has a lot to do with how fast you are running. If a good lap time at your track is 2 min. Running 1:59 cost twice as much per year.
My cost from running a 02ACR 09ACR and now a 17ACR has always been about $2,000 a day. That includes all cost for the track hotel, gas, food.....

[ek1]

I would change to the Girodisc steel replament. The complete set up is less then CCM rotor replacement. I am not sure how many times a year you run but I will guess one set of front pads a year for $300. Would be your only cost for brakes

For yearly cost I will tell you it has a lot to do with how fast you are running. If a good lap time at your track is 2 min. Running 1:59 cost twice as much per year.
My cost from running a 02ACR 09ACR and now a 17ACR has always been about $2,000 a day. That includes all cost for the track hotel, gas, food.....

Yeah, $2K a day sounds about right.

Gah....I just hate the thought of steel rotors....I hate the brake dust, the squealing, etc.

I have done a total of 10 days with the ACR this season so far and will end up with about 12 by the end of it. Next season I'm hoping to do about 15 or so, now that I've solved the problem with stupid Kumhos in the front.

There is no possible way a set of front pads will last me a season. So far I have consumed about 2 sets of pads per season with CCBs and I am not even that hard on brakes. I can't understand how it's possible to use 1 set of pads per season with steel rotors.

[09 ACR]

i had the CCM on my car, i used them for one day and used 1 set of front pads. (they were bedded by the book) i am hard on brakes, I can only tell you there are several of us that are running the grio set up. we all have the same result.

[Snorman]

i had the CCM on my car, i used them for one day and used 1 set of front pads. (they were bedded by the book) i am hard on brakes, I can only tell you there are several of us that are running the grio set up. we all have the same result.
On you recommendation I went with the Girodisc/ST43 setup on my car. Heading to Sebring this weekend but don't expect to get much track time as it is predicted to be a rainy weekend.
Pad wear with the CCM's was brutal. And after ~8 days my rotors are shot.
S.

[RedTanRT/10]

There is no possible way a set of front pads will last me a season. So far I have consumed about 2 sets of pads per season with CCBs and I am not even that hard on brakes. I can't understand how it's possible to use 1 set of pads per season with steel rotors.

Take a look at these, 6 piston Brembo "endurance" calipers. These pads have over 20 sessions, 5 weekends. Not sure how long they'd last for you, and everyone has different driving styles and different tracks, but these last a long time.

In reading this thread, and all the various G5 threads, makes me glad I got a comp coupe to track!

29033

[Tamvette]

i had the CCM on my car, i used them for one day and used 1 set of front pads. (they were bedded by the book) i am hard on brakes, I can only tell you there are several of us that are running the grio set up. we all have the same result.

I went with ST47 Front \ST45 Rear with the 2013 GTS's track package setup and am very happy with it. Tried the same setup on my race car (Miata), it was not getting hot enough and depending on your driving style (how much do you use trail braking, braking style...) some drivers would experience no brake on the initial braking but never experienced it in Viper. I am giving this detail as you could use brakes with a different style and experience this on the Viper as well.

[stradman]

Ok how about I put it differently
Can I ask has anyone who has changed CCM brakes for Girodiscs regretted it and gone back to CCM's again for the track?

[mike@girodisc]

Yeah, $2K a day sounds about right.

Gah....I just hate the thought of steel rotors....I hate the brake dust, the squealing, etc.

I have done a total of 10 days with the ACR this season so far and will end up with about 12 by the end of it. Next season I'm hoping to do about 15 or so, now that I've solved the problem with stupid Kumhos in the front.

There is no possible way a set of front pads will last me a season. So far I have consumed about 2 sets of pads per season with CCBs and I am not even that hard on brakes. I can't understand how it's possible to use 1 set of pads per season with steel rotors.

Hello all, I've been keeping a close eye on the brake threads around here and am happy to see a number of our customers in here sharing their experiences with our rotors and the Raybestos pads. I just thought I would pop in here and give you guys some feedback on what I have been seeing from customers in terms of wear on both the rotors and pads. Now one must be careful when analyzing pad and rotor wear because there are an incredible amount of variables that are at play, driver, ambient temp, track, tires, session time, and the list goes on however once you've had enough guys running the set up for long enough you can start to get a picture of what to expect by making the switch.

With our iron conversion and ST43 pads we generally see between 10-15 days on a set of front pads (we've seen as high as 20) and at least double that out of the rears. Rotors are generally good for two sets of pads so anywhere from 20-30 days out of the front and honestly we're not quite sure on the rears as no one has worn out a set yet. A good customer of ours who happens to be the head of design at Fiat Chrysler actually worked with us to make the original set and he's still on that original set of rear rotors with somewhere around 40-50 days on them. Now, I generally hate using the term 'days' because no one's track day is the same as another but with street cars it's rare to have people actually track hours so this is what we're left with. So please take this with a grain of salt but the point here is that most of these same customers were lucky to get more than 3-4 days out of a set of the OEM pads with brand new OEM rotors and then maybe 2 days out of the second set of pads because the rotors had lost so much material on the face turning them into massive cheese graters.

Over the years we have converted thousands of vehicles from CCM/PCCB rotors to our iron rotors mostly in the Ferrari and Porsche market for guys that are actually putting their car through the paces and it hasn't been until more recently that we've become popular in the domestic car market with the advent of CCM rotors on a few of the Chevy's and now the Viper. To this day I have never had a customer tell me that they were disappointed in the conversion and/or wanted to swap back to the CCM rotors, in fact most prefer the iron set up and most improve their lap times. Confidence is everything when it comes to brakes and confidence comes from consistency, these CCM packages simply don't have the thermal capacity to maintain a stable enough temperature to keep the coefficient of friction of your brake pad from bouncing all over the place.

Hope that helps, if you guys have any other technical questions feel free to ask!

[BlueAdder]

Perhaps once manufacturers of both the rotors and pads realize that people replace the CCB with Iron ones, maybe they'll lower the prices.
So far I have changed the front pads once and I have to do the rears as well. My front rotors look about 50% good but I don't know how much longer they'll last.

I'm not sure yet if I'll keep the CCB or switch to iron. I absolutely love the CCB but the cost is quite scary. $600 for front pads is one thing but almost $3500 for a set of front rotors is just absurd.

[Racingswh]

Hello all, I've been keeping a close eye on the brake threads around here and am happy to see a number of our customers in here sharing their experiences with our rotors and the Raybestos pads.

A good customer of ours who happens to be the head of design at Fiat Chrysler actually worked with us to make the original set and he's still on that original set of rear rotors with somewhere around 40-50 days on them. Now, I generally hate using the term 'days' because no one's track day is the same as another.

To this day I have never had a customer tell me that they were disappointed in the conversion and/or wanted to swap back to the CCM rotors, in fact most prefer the iron set up and most improve their lap times.

Hope that helps, if you guys have any other technical questions feel free to ask!

Thanks for chiming in Mike. I am looking forward to using them next week.

I think we all regard days as 4 or 5 20 to 25 minute sessions per day. When someone says " I got 3 days out of them" I usually know what they are referring to if that makes sense. Because of that and the number of days your customers are getting from your rotors and 43's I can already feel my wallet getting heavier. :)

[ek1]

Would it be OK to run Girodiscs in the front and stock rotors in the rear? My rear stock rotors are still in a GREAT shape....I can definitely do another season on them.

[GTSilver]

Hello all, I've been keeping a close eye on the brake threads around here and am happy to see a number of our customers in here sharing their experiences with our rotors and the Raybestos pads. I just thought I would pop in here and give you guys some feedback on what I have been seeing from customers in terms of wear on both the rotors and pads. Now one must be careful when analyzing pad and rotor wear because there are an incredible amount of variables that are at play, driver, ambient temp, track, tires, session time, and the list goes on however once you've had enough guys running the set up for long enough you can start to get a picture of what to expect by making the switch.

With our iron conversion and ST43 pads we generally see between 10-15 days on a set of front pads (we've seen as high as 20) and at least double that out of the rears. Rotors are generally good for two sets of pads so anywhere from 20-30 days out of the front and honestly we're not quite sure on the rears as no one has worn out a set yet. A good customer of ours who happens to be the head of design at Fiat Chrysler actually worked with us to make the original set and he's still on that original set of rear rotors with somewhere around 40-50 days on them. Now, I generally hate using the term 'days' because no one's track day is the same as another but with street cars it's rare to have people actually track hours so this is what we're left with. So please take this with a grain of salt but the point here is that most of these same customers were lucky to get more than 3-4 days out of a set of the OEM pads with brand new OEM rotors and then maybe 2 days out of the second set of pads because the rotors had lost so much material on the face turning them into massive cheese graters.

Over the years we have converted thousands of vehicles from CCM/PCCB rotors to our iron rotors mostly in the Ferrari and Porsche market for guys that are actually putting their car through the paces and it hasn't been until more recently that we've become popular in the domestic car market with the advent of CCM rotors on a few of the Chevy's and now the Viper. To this day I have never had a customer tell me that they were disappointed in the conversion and/or wanted to swap back to the CCM rotors, in fact most prefer the iron set up and most improve their lap times. Confidence is everything when it comes to brakes and confidence comes from consistency, these CCM packages simply don't have the thermal capacity to maintain a stable enough temperature to keep the coefficient of friction of your brake pad from bouncing all over the place.

Hope that helps, if you guys have any other technical questions feel free to ask!

PM sent

[Snorman]

Would it be OK to run Girodiscs in the front and stock rotors in the rear? My rear stock rotors are still in a GREAT shape....I can definitely do another season on them.
Why do that? The Girodisc/ST43 conversion is about ~$3400. Makes no sense to do the fronts and keep the carbon rears.
S.

[stradman]

Thanks Mike that was helpful.

[mike@girodisc]

Would it be OK to run Girodiscs in the front and stock rotors in the rear? My rear stock rotors are still in a GREAT shape....I can definitely do another season on them.

We really don't recommend it unfortunately, let me explain why. Carbon ceramic rotors as we all know are very light but almost to a fault because this also means they have very little thermal capacity so they can get very hot very quickly. They are also very good at dissipating heat so they cool down very quickly as well, on the surface this sounds great but in reality what it means is that you will have very large swings in the temperature delta of your brake system. The coefficient of friction of a brake pad is heavily dependent on temperature and pads are designed to operate best and most consistently within a certain operating temperature zone for that specific compound. If they’re not hot enough they have no bite and if they’re too hot they fade, neither of which you want on the race track.

If you were to run the CCM package on the rear you'll have a CF level that is bouncing back and forth while the front axle stays relatively stable. This could result in a very tail happy rear end after a long straight where the rears have cooled down significantly and have little bite on initial application and then on the flip side as those rears get hot and shift the bias towards the rear you could get some unwanted ABS intervention. Neither of which is an efficient way to haul a car down at the track and will likely result in an increase in braking distances.

This all goes back to what in my opinion is the fatal flaw with CCM rotors and that is simply the lack of thermal capacity. They run significantly hotter than a comparable iron set up which means they are far more susceptible to causing issues such as boiling brake fluid, tearing up dust boots, wheel bearings, etc. and then along with it consistency issues due to coefficient of friction that is essentially a moving target. We’ve had customers report that even from one corner to the next the brakes can feel very different due to the amount of heat in the system. The best brakes in the world are ones that you know are going to work the exact same every single time because you have confidence in them, when things are inconsistent you cannot drive confidently and you will not be quick around any race track.

[serpent]

In reading this thread, and all the various G5 threads, makes me glad I got a comp coupe to track!

Curious to know what the CC runs at Laguna Seca.

[Racingswh]

Curious to know what the CC runs at Laguna Seca.

Depends on who's driving but I would guess on pace with a GT1 car. In 2014 Kyle Kelley went 1:27 during the national championship race in his GT1 car. Andrew Aquilante went 1:30 in his GT2 car so well driven somewhere in that range and possibly a touch quicker.

I can't find any times from a CC there but I might not be looking in the right places either.

[RedTanRT/10]

Mike@Girodisc, lots of great information and I see from Todd's post and speaking to Dan Cragin the other day, you make a great set up, and, a better way to track a G5 ACR. Thanks for supporting the viper guys.

Serpent, I'll be at LS in mid-November. Last year was my 2nd time there and I ran 1:40 flat in a G4 ACR (600 rwhp). I've only had this car for 10 months so I'm still learning the handling, braking as well as the sequential. First time at BW and Fontana I was able to shave a second or better from my personal best. (With 75 less rwhp) I'm shooting for a 1:37-38 this time. But, a guy like Ross Murray who aligned it could probably be able to run a 1:30 or better in my car.

[Racingbrake]

Don't just replace Viper CCB, convert to RB-CCM.

This RB-CCM rotor assembly is exclusively offered by RB and built with ZR1/Z28 394x36mm (vs. OE 390x34) CCM discs. Rotors are fully compatible with OE calipers and pads; not only this conversion can increase your braking thermal capacity (extending rotor and pad life), but it also can save you 50%+ in future discs replacement vs. OE replacement.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbworld.org-vbulletin/600x450-1/front_ccb_replacement_b774b887d66171b641bbb89c9b53 fb530f37d954.png

The only bullet proof & ultimate brake set up - CCM rotors with RB sintered (100% metallic pads) that is guaranteed to outperform and outlast conventional iron/semi-metallic pads several times. The overall cost is cheaper than iron set up, never have to worry about cracking and warping your iron rotors.

CCM brakes provides a highly consistent @ high brake torque (0.6 u) at any brake conditions. A proven products in Corvette ZR1 & Z28, GTR & Porsche, and now Mustang GT350.

https://trackmustangsonline.com/threads/carbon-ceramic-brakes-theyre-on.12573/page-2#post-182263

[stradman]

It can be so confusing sometimes with everyone pitching their wares.....Anyway ordered Girodiscs so that's what I will be having next season....

[Racingbrake]

Would it be OK to run Girodiscs in the front and stock rotors in the rear? My rear stock rotors are still in a GREAT shape....I can definitely do another season on them.
I see no reason why not.

However if it's for upgrading from iron to CCM we would recommend CCM front and iron rear (for BMW, Lexus, GTR, ZL1, Prosche) to save the cost as the front does more work than the rear. In case anyone would question the validity of this mixed rotor material set up, just check Mercedes newest C63 S (Lower end of GT S), MB offers front only CCB upgrade, rear remains as iron.

When two different rotor materials (CCM vs. Iron) are evaluated, one of the most critical characteristics is "specific heat capacity" which is the amount of heat required to change a unit mass of a substance by one degree. Gram to gram CCM is better (require more heat than iron) but due to CCM rotor is about 2 times lighter, so a CCM rotor will run hotter than iron for the same amount of work. This is the reason why a CCM rotor is usually made larger in volume than iron counterpart in order to make up the "thermal capacity" deficiency due its lighter weight.

There has been a lot of mis-understanding and fallacy about CCM brakes including some marketing advertisement by some CCM rotor mfgr (http://forums.racingbrake.com/showpost.php?p=6162&postcount=18), so I have complied a summary table with objective "numbers" for those who are interested in learning more about two different rotor materials. These data were duly verified by the Chief Engineer of Surface Transforms (UK).

http://forums.racingbrake.com/showpost.php?p=5829&postcount=13

[Racingbrake]

The definition between "specific heat capacity (specific heat)" and "heat capacity (thermal capacity)" often gets confused, so I hope this further explanation can help to clarify the two.

Specific heat capacity is an intensive property that is the inherent characteristic of a substance (material); eg. CCM, iron, steel, copper, glass etc. representing how how much heat is required to increase 1 degree of temperature for the same unit of mass. For example a 300mm smaller rotor has the same exact specific heat as a 390mm big rotor because they are the same material.

While Heat (thermal) capacity is an extensive property that is the amount of heat required to change the temperature of an object by a certain degree. For example a 390mm big rotor has larger heat (thermal) capacity because the big rotor is larger in weight, so the temperature rise is lower (cooler) than a smaller rotor for the same amount of kinetic energy absorbed.

As stated earlier although CCM material has a better specific heat capacity* (kJkg-1K-1) 0.8 vs. Iron 0.5, but since it's lighter by 50% so overall the CCM will run hotter than iron, so a CCM rotor needs to be larger than iron rotor to increase its "thermal capacity"

Another important characteristics to evaluate between two rotor materials is "Thermal Conductivity" (Wm-1K-1) in which the iron is better 54 (vs. CCM's 40), which means iron rotor can dissipate heat faster than CCM.