Gen 4 Cool Aid

[Steve M]

I'm not sure how many folks keep up with the stuff going on in the Gen 5 section, but in case you haven't heard of Jack B's Cool-Aid, you can read about it here:

https://driveviper.com/forums/threads/18007-COOL-AID-Now-Available?highlight=cool-aid

https://driveviper.com/forums/threads/18197-Drinking-the-Cool-Aid?highlight=cool-aid

https://driveviper.com/forums/threads/18553-Cool-Aid-Update?highlight=cool-aid

Well, we can't let the Gen 5 guys have all the fun, so Jack sent me a prototype to test out on my 2008. Bottom line: it works just as well on the Gen 4 as it does on the Gen 5. Read on if you want to see the test data.

Car: 2008 Viper
Mods: High flow cats (still on stock exhaust manifolds), Gen 5 Intake Manifold, DSE Heat Shield, HPTuners (tuned by me)

Weather Conditions (Dayton, OH):
Ambient Temp = 79°F
Sunny
Tested between 6:30PM and 8:00PM local time

I did a short drive without the Cool-Aid for a baseline - this was a completely cool car that was started in my garage and driven from there. I drove about 7 miles to a nearby parking lot and let the car sit in the sun idling for 5 minutes to get everything nice and heat soaked. I then drove back home, parked the car in the driveway, and shut the car off. I recorded the IAT before shutting the engine off, and then 5 minutes after shutting the engine off.

Without Cool-Aid:

Reported IAT @ Startup = 79°F

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/Viper/Cool%20Aid/Without%20Cool%20Aid%20-%20Startup_zpshszhay8n.png

Reported IAT before idling in parking lot = 84°F

Reported IAT after idling in parking lot for 5 minutes = 100°F (getting toasty)

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/Viper/Cool%20Aid/Without%20Cool%20Aid%20-%20Idling%205%20Minutes_zpsftmbmwfn.png

Reported IAT after driving home, just before shutting down = 95°F - on the drive home, the IATs stayed around 93°F while cruising

Reported IAT 5 minutes after shutting down = 129°F (hot damn)

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/Viper/Cool%20Aid/Without%20Cool%20Aid%20-%205%20Minutes%20After%20Shutdown_zpsvkgv5cba.png

At this point, I popped the hood and installed Jack's Cool-Aid - as long as you have two hands and half a brain, I think you'll figure it out. I did have the added complication of having Doug's heat shield installed, but removing the thumb screws and lifting up on the airbox made accessing the MAF sensor connectors much easier:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/Viper/Cool%20Aid/Cool%20Aid%20-%20Drivers%20Side_zpszbnb7cn6.jpg

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/Viper/Cool%20Aid/Cool%20Aid%20-%20Passengers%20Side_zps88lsabv4.jpg

I did zip tie them in place before driving, even though it isn't shown in the photos.

With Cool-Aid (same driving cycle) - note the car was completely heat soaked at this point:

Reported IAT @ Startup = 75°F

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/Viper/Cool%20Aid/With%20Cool%20Aid%20-%20Startup_zps8z07in7d.png

Reported IAT before idling in parking lot = 70°F

Reported IAT after idling in parking lot for 5 minutes = 73°F

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/Viper/Cool%20Aid/With%20Cool%20Aid%20-%20After%205%20Minutes%20Idling_zpscydj4sjp.png

Reported IAT after driving home, just before shutting down = 72°F

Reported IAT 5 minutes after shutting down = 86°F

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/Viper/Cool%20Aid/With%20Cool%20Aid%20-%205%20Minutes%20After%20Shutdown_zpsk6kso5ii.png

That's a little more like it. Remember this table for reference:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/HPTuners%20Viper/Gen%205%20IAT%20Timing%20Table_zpswj9kobim.jpg

Anything above 77°F in the stock/Mopar/Arrow calibrations and the PCM starts pulling timing in a big hurry, and when it does that, it also adds fuel to make the AFR go even more rich than it already is. As you can see from the data above, that little problem goes away by just plugging in the Cool-Aid. Obviously the end-user has to make a judgment call on when it's appropriate to use such a device - the intended application is for the drag strip (specifically while sitting there cooking in the staging lanes), and it will work quite well in that setting. The nice thing about this is that it is simply plug and play - don't want to risk it? Just unplug it and reconnect the vehicle's connectors to the MAF sensors and be on your way (5-10 minutes tops).

[ACRucrazy]

Thanks for the feedback!

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Good news and thank you for testing this out.

[viperBase1]

Thanks Steve, very cool.

So I'm NOT doing any drag racing or track stuff right now. Maybe a little bit on the track later on.

I like the idea of running lean.
What are the draw backs to running lean on the street?

[Ludington1]

Thanks, Steve, for doing this, I've been following the Cool-Aid thread and was hoping this would be the case for Gen IV!

Darren

[Steve M]

Thanks Steve, very cool.

So I'm NOT doing any drag racing or track stuff right now. Maybe a little bit on the track later on.

I like the idea of running lean.
What are the draw backs to running lean on the street?

Let me clarify...this device would not make you run lean, but it might make you run leaner if that makes sense.

The stock PCM commands around the mid 11s AFR at WOT in the upper RPMs...as it pulls timing, it makes it go richer, usually down into the 10s. That is WAY rich, which is very conservative. The Mopar PCM is calibrated to command around 12.8:1 AFR at WOT in the upper RPMs, which is still a good safe number for max power production. As the PCM pulls timing due to high IATs, it will only go richer than that number, so still on the safe side.

So the bottom line is that it won't make the car run lean, it will only keep the PCM from pulling things rich. The PCM won't command anything leaner than what it is already set to do, which IMO is still perfectly safe for a street application.

I obviously went the HPTuners route, so I can alter the IAT timing table to suit my needs, but I still make use of it in all of my tunes. I just don't pull as much timing, and I have another table set so that even if it does pull timing, it won't add any additional fuel to the WOT . My car is 99% street driven, and about 1% driven at the local drag strip. I'd likely change this if I was going to take the car on a road course, especially on a hot day.

I will also say this again: the beauty of this product is it is a couple minute plug and play procedure...don't want to take the risk on a really hot day? Just remove it and go right back to stock. You can just throw it in your glove box and pull it back out when you want or need it.

[viperBase1]

Let me clarify...this device would not make you run lean, but it might make you run leaner if that makes sense.

The stock PCM commands around the mid 11s AFR at WOT in the upper RPMs...as it pulls timing, it makes it go richer, usually down into the 10s. That is WAY rich, which is very conservative. The Mopar PCM is calibrated to command around 12.8:1 AFR at WOT in the upper RPMs, which is still a good safe number for max power production. As the PCM pulls timing due to high IATs, it will only go richer than that number, so still on the safe side.

So the bottom line is that it won't make the car run lean, it will only keep the PCM from pulling things rich. The PCM won't command anything leaner than what it is already set to do, which IMO is still perfectly safe for a street application.

I obviously went the HPTuners route, so I can alter the IAT timing table to suit my needs, but I still make use of it in all of my tunes. I just don't pull as much timing, and I have another table set so that even if it does pull timing, it won't add any additional fuel to the WOT . My car is 99% street driven, and about 1% driven at the local drag strip. I'd likely change this if I was going to take the car on a road course, especially on a hot day.

I will also say this again: the beauty of this product is it is a couple minute plug and play procedure...don't want to take the risk on a really hot day? Just remove it and go right back to stock. You can just throw it in your glove box and pull it back out when you want or need it.
As always, thanks for the info..

[SRT BILL]

I'm not sure how many folks keep up with the stuff going on in the Gen 5 section, but in case you haven't heard of Jack B's Cool-Aid, you can read about it here:

https://driveviper.com/forums/threads/18007-COOL-AID-Now-Available?highlight=cool-aid

https://driveviper.com/forums/threads/18197-Drinking-the-Cool-Aid?highlight=cool-aid

https://driveviper.com/forums/threads/18553-Cool-Aid-Update?highlight=cool-aid

Well, we can't let the Gen 5 guys have all the fun, so Jack sent me a prototype to test out on my 2008. Bottom line: it works just as well on the Gen 4 as it does on the Gen 5. Read on if you want to see the test data.

Car: 2008 Viper
Mods: High flow cats (still on stock exhaust manifolds), Gen 5 Intake Manifold, DSE Heat Shield, HPTuners (tuned by me)

Weather Conditions (Dayton, OH):
Ambient Temp = 79°F
Sunny
Tested between 6:30PM and 8:00PM local time

I did a short drive without the Cool-Aid for a baseline - this was a completely cool car that was started in my garage and driven from there. I drove about 7 miles to a nearby parking lot and let the car sit in the sun idling for 5 minutes to get everything nice and heat soaked. I then drove back home, parked the car in the driveway, and shut the car off. I recorded the IAT before shutting the engine off, and then 5 minutes after shutting the engine off.

Without Cool-Aid:

Reported IAT @ Startup = 79°F

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/Viper/Cool%20Aid/Without%20Cool%20Aid%20-%20Startup_zpshszhay8n.png

Reported IAT before idling in parking lot = 84°F

Reported IAT after idling in parking lot for 5 minutes = 100°F (getting toasty)

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/Viper/Cool%20Aid/Without%20Cool%20Aid%20-%20Idling%205%20Minutes_zpsftmbmwfn.png

Reported IAT after driving home, just before shutting down = 95°F - on the drive home, the IATs stayed around 93°F while cruising

Reported IAT 5 minutes after shutting down = 129°F (hot damn)

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/Viper/Cool%20Aid/Without%20Cool%20Aid%20-%205%20Minutes%20After%20Shutdown_zpsvkgv5cba.png

At this point, I popped the hood and installed Jack's Cool-Aid - as long as you have two hands and half a brain, I think you'll figure it out. I did have the added complication of having Doug's heat shield installed, but removing the thumb screws and lifting up on the airbox made accessing the MAF sensor connectors much easier:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/Viper/Cool%20Aid/Cool%20Aid%20-%20Drivers%20Side_zpszbnb7cn6.jpg

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/Viper/Cool%20Aid/Cool%20Aid%20-%20Passengers%20Side_zps88lsabv4.jpg

I did zip tie them in place before driving, even though it isn't shown in the photos.

With Cool-Aid (same driving cycle) - note the car was completely heat soaked at this point:

Reported IAT @ Startup = 75°F

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/Viper/Cool%20Aid/With%20Cool%20Aid%20-%20Startup_zps8z07in7d.png

Reported IAT before idling in parking lot = 70°F

Reported IAT after idling in parking lot for 5 minutes = 73°F

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/Viper/Cool%20Aid/With%20Cool%20Aid%20-%20After%205%20Minutes%20Idling_zpscydj4sjp.png

Reported IAT after driving home, just before shutting down = 72°F

Reported IAT 5 minutes after shutting down = 86°F

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/Viper/Cool%20Aid/With%20Cool%20Aid%20-%205%20Minutes%20After%20Shutdown_zpsk6kso5ii.png

That's a little more like it. Remember this table for reference:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/HPTuners%20Viper/Gen%205%20IAT%20Timing%20Table_zpswj9kobim.jpg

Anything above 77°F in the stock/Mopar/Arrow calibrations and the PCM starts pulling timing in a big hurry, and when it does that, it also adds fuel to make the AFR go even more rich than it already is. As you can see from the data above, that little problem goes away by just plugging in the Cool-Aid. Obviously the end-user has to make a judgment call on when it's appropriate to use such a device - the intended application is for the drag strip (specifically while sitting there cooking in the staging lanes), and it will work quite well in that setting. The nice thing about this is that it is simply plug and play - don't want to risk it? Just unplug it and reconnect the vehicle's connectors to the MAF sensors and be on your way (5-10 minutes tops).

Steve, nice work and thanks for doing this test. One thing I don't understand is the timing advance and the value column. It looks like you start out with 31.5 on the before cool aid but when you added the cool aid it shows 0 and then in the second screen shot 13.5 what am I missing?

[Steve M]

Steve, nice work and thanks for doing this test. One thing I don't understand is the timing advance and the value column. It looks like you start out with 31.5 on the before cool aid but when you added the cool aid it shows 0 and then in the second screen shot 13.5 what am I missing?

Good eye, and fair question. The only thing you are missing is the conditions when I took those screen captures. If you look closely at the picture where it shows 31.5° of timing advance, pay attention to the Engine RPMs, Vehicle Speed, and Pedal Position - I was cruising down the road at the point, so that was the timing value at that point in time. Some of the screen captures were taken while the car was idling, so you'll see the Engine RPMs will be around 925 RPMs or so (that's where I have it set), and the pedal position was at 0%. The ones where it shows 0° were either taken with the car not running, or it just so happened that the timing advance was 0° at that instant in time...look at the Engine RPMs. If it showed 0 RPMs, the engine was not running.

Keep in mind that the commanded and actual spark advance is constantly changing. There are a few tables I have access to that affect it, shown here:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/Viper/Cool%20Aid/Spark%20Tables_zps2zgaxg2f.png

There are only a couple tables I really care about - Base Idle and Main Spark. The idle spark table is referenced pretty much anytime you aren't pressing the gas pedal, and is a single row of values that varies with RPMs:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/Viper/Cool%20Aid/Idle%20Spark%20Table_zpslwwtvtxr.png

It doesn't stay at that main value though when idling. Idle control is primarily accomplished by altering the timing values - the PCM can affect the idle RPM way faster by adding or pulling timing than by trying to adjust the airflow with the throttle bodies. Because of that, you'll see the timing values bounce all over the place from 0° to about 20° or so just sitting there idling away...that's the PCM keeping the idle over/under speed in check.

The main spark advance table is slightly more complicated, and looks like this (this is the stock Gen 4 table):

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/Viper/Cool%20Aid/Main%20Spark%20Table_zpss5fbjjqj.png

The value commanded depends on the engine RPMs (horizontal axis) and the engine airflow (vertical axis, calculated in grams per cylinder), which is directly related to how far you are pressing the gas pedal down (engine load). As a reference, the WOT region starts at about the 0.60 g/cyl row at 2,000 RPMs, and goes up to about 1.00 g/cyl by 6,000 RPMs on a stock car depending on the weather. It is a little easier to visualize as a 3D map...here's the stock table again as a 3D map:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/Viper/Cool%20Aid/Main%20Spark%20Table%203D_zpsdajzcjv7.png

The big valley you see towards the middle right of the map is around peak torque, and goes back up as the engine RPMs climb towards redline. As another reference, here's how I modified the main spark table for my car:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn227/meentss02/Viper/Cool%20Aid/Modified%20Spark%20Table%203D_zpsjryscrux.png

I added a lot of timing in the part throttle, low-mid RPM region as well as the WOT region. The IAT timing table is a global modifier, so if it is taking 3° of timing away due to high IATs, it is actually subtracting 3° from whatever cell you happen to be in at that exact moment in time in the main spark table. The IAT timing table does not affect the idle spark table values.

That was probably too much information...I tend to speak in generalities when it comes to this stuff because getting into the nitty gritty details tends to confuse more than help. I still don't have a great understanding of how everything works, but I know enough to be dangerous. Hopefully that helps.

[Stealth78]

Let me clarify...this device would not make you run lean, but it might make you run leaner if that makes sense.

The stock PCM commands around the mid 11s AFR at WOT in the upper RPMs...as it pulls timing, it makes it go richer, usually down into the 10s. That is WAY rich, which is very conservative. The Mopar PCM is calibrated to command around 12.8:1 AFR at WOT in the upper RPMs, which is still a good safe number for max power production. As the PCM pulls timing due to high IATs, it will only go richer than that number, so still on the safe side.

So the bottom line is that it won't make the car run lean, it will only keep the PCM from pulling things rich. The PCM won't command anything leaner than what it is already set to do, which IMO is still perfectly safe for a street application.

I obviously went the HPTuners route, so I can alter the IAT timing table to suit my needs, but I still make use of it in all of my tunes. I just don't pull as much timing, and I have another table set so that even if it does pull timing, it won't add any additional fuel to the WOT . My car is 99% street driven, and about 1% driven at the local drag strip. I'd likely change this if I was going to take the car on a road course, especially on a hot day.

I will also say this again: the beauty of this product is it is a couple minute plug and play procedure...don't want to take the risk on a really hot day? Just remove it and go right back to stock. You can just throw it in your glove box and pull it back out when you want or need it.

Hey Steve, truly appreciate this information and I am definitely interested! I have read through what you have written in this thread and your last post did incinerate my brain a little... If you're implying that this "Cool-Aid" can't make your car run lean than what is the point t in unplugging it in hot temps? What is the con to this as the pros seem awesome! Can damage be done if you leave this plugged in on hot days? Will the car at that point run too lean? At what temperature do you consider it to be hot?

[Steve M]

The answer to me is: it depends.

On a car with the stock tune, I'd probably run it all the time in the summer...that tune is pretty conservative already, so I wouldn't worry about doing damage.

As for a car with a more aggressive tune (Mopar PCM, Arrow reflash of the Mopar PCM, or a custom HPTuners tune depending on how aggressive you go with the timing), I think Jack recommends not running it in 90°F+ conditions. Personally, I'd probably be okay running it on the street until temps were in the mid-to-upper 90s. For a road course, I probably wouldn't run it at all.

No one that I know of has solid data on when you might do damage to the Gen 4's hypereutectic pistons. I've been running a fairly aggressive tune for quite some time now, but it is a street driven car that sees short WOT bursts at most. It totally depends on a person's driving habits and risk tolerance. If you pretty much only run your car on the street, I'd say just leave it plugged in and don't worry about it, but that's just me.

[SRT BILL]

Steve very interesting stuff, you have a good crasp of this technology. Can you help me understand where is the benifit for cool aid if you can alter the IAT yourself? Thank you for the explainations and charts.

[IndyRon]

Steve when can we get this product and from who? I can send $ immediately.

[Steve M]

I can't actually alter the IAT readings themselves, but I can change how much timing gets pulled in that modifier table. If I wanted to, I could completely zero that table out, thus making sure no timing gets pulled no matter how high the IAT gets. In that case, the Cool-Aid would serve no purpose. In the time that I've spent tuning my car, I've tried to come up with a tune that is good for nearly all situations, so I still use that table to pull timing depending on the conditions. I'm also running upwards of 6-7° more timing in certain spots in the main spark table, which is on the aggressive side. I'm okay taking some risks, but I don't need to run at 10/10 on the street at all times. I don't intend to use the Cool-Aid in normal day-to-day driving, because I'm pretty happy with my tune as is, even on hot summer days. Where I do intend to use it is as my local drag strip.

Why? Because I can't tell from run to run how much heat soak I'm going to have when I'm idling in the staging lanes waiting to make a run. Is it going to climb 20°? 30°? 40°? It is quicker for me to just plug the Cool-Aids in and not worry about it than it is to reflash the PCM before a run at the drag strip. Am I lazy? Probably, but it's nice to not have to worry about it.

Where this makes the most sense is with people running the stock, unaltered PCM, the Mopar PCM, or the Arrow reflash to the Mopar PCM. Those folks can't alter the IAT timing table, so they have the most to benefit from it. The tougher sell is with the HPTuners crowd, but that one is a mixed bag. I seem to be in the minority of HPTuners users because I have my own interface/cable, and I'm willing to modify the tunes as I see fit. There are quite a few folks that have their own interface/cable and aren't comfortable doing that (and I can't blame them), and there are many more than have custom HPTuners tunes, but paid a shop to do it, so they don't own the interface/cable at all. I don't know what the tuners out there typically do with this table, because pretty much no one is willing to share info since it is such a small market (again, can't blame them).

I only know a handful of people running HPT...seems like everyone else chose the Mopar PCM route, or the Arrow reflash of the Mopar PCM. Maybe they just don't post on the internet...

The Cool-Aid won't be for everyone, but I think a lot of people on here would benefit from having it, especially those that frequent the drag strip.

[Steve M]

Steve when can we get this product and from who? I can send $ immediately.

I'd send Jack B a PM...not sure how many he has available, or even if he's selling them himself. He's browsing this thread, so hopefully he can chime in.

[SRT BILL]

I can't actually alter the IAT readings themselves, but I can change how much timing gets pulled in that modifier table. If I wanted to, I could completely zero that table out, thus making sure no timing gets pulled no matter how high the IAT gets. In that case, the Cool-Aid would serve no purpose. In the time that I've spent tuning my car, I've tried to come up with a tune that is good for nearly all situations, so I still use that table to pull timing depending on the conditions. I'm also running upwards of 6-7° more timing in certain spots in the main spark table, which is on the aggressive side. I'm okay taking some risks, but I don't need to run at 10/10 on the street at all times. I don't intend to use the Cool-Aid in normal day-to-day driving, because I'm pretty happy with my tune as is, even on hot summer days. Where I do intend to use it is as my local drag strip.

Why? Because I can't tell from run to run how much heat soak I'm going to have when I'm idling in the staging lanes waiting to make a run. Is it going to climb 20°? 30°? 40°? It is quicker for me to just plug the Cool-Aids in and not worry about it than it is to reflash the PCM before a run at the drag strip. Am I lazy? Probably, but it's nice to not have to worry about it.

Where this makes the most sense is with people running the stock, unaltered PCM, the Mopar PCM, or the Arrow reflash to the Mopar PCM. Those folks can't alter the IAT timing table, so they have the most to benefit from it. The tougher sell is with the HPTuners crowd, but that one is a mixed bag. I seem to be in the minority of HPTuners users because I have my own interface/cable, and I'm willing to modify the tunes as I see fit. There are quite a few folks that have their own interface/cable and aren't comfortable doing that (and I can't blame them), and there are many more than have custom HPTuners tunes, but paid a shop to do it, so they don't own the interface/cable at all. I don't know what the tuners out there typically do with this table, because pretty much no one is willing to share info since it is such a small market (again, can't blame them).

I only know a handful of people running HPT...seems like everyone else chose the Mopar PCM route, or the Arrow reflash of the Mopar PCM. Maybe they just don't post on the internet...

The Cool-Aid won't be for everyone, but I think a lot of people on here would benefit from having it, especially those that frequent the drag strip.

Thanks again Steve, I order one a few weeks ago and plan to use it on the street mostly in the summer time when the temps get into the 90's. I also have Dougs heat shield with the recommended Dynamat thermal barrier installed.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Steve when can we get this product and from who? I can send $ immediately.


I'd send Jack B a PM...not sure how many he has available, or even if he's selling them himself. He's browsing this thread, so hopefully he can chime in.

The production run should happen very shortly. They will be available through DSE or Woodhouse.