Unsafe wheel design, crappy iForged customer service

[1994viper]

Okay, im not the one who likes to bitch a lot. But this issue got me going a bit. So I upgrade my 94 to a 05 with iForged wheels a couple of months ago. I really liked the car :) till I got caught in the drizzle. While driving on the highway at 60 mph, I started to having a wobble. So, I naturally got scared and decided to slow the car down by pressing the brake. That's when the whole hell broke loose. It felt like the front was coming apart, and the wheel would come off. The front jumped and hopped so violently that it became unstoppable and barely controllable, to the point where I got scared for my and others lives. I literally thought im going to be another viper casualty.
Later, I go on to the google, and find out its a long known issue with the wheel design. The flaw that iForged has been aware of for a long time, to the extent they actually went ahead and designed a so called water channel diverter which they are trying to charge money for from people who bought their initially unsafe and dangerours product. I have contacted their company in hopes to resolve this issue properly. They have admitted that their wheels will cause vibrations in wet conditions, but yet refused to fix it! Demanding from me that I must buy their fix to their fault at their online store. I think this is absurd, and totally immoral. This is the company that beside producing a dangerous item does not stand by their product or care for human life or safety of others. So, I decided to warn others and give those ....... 30 bucks or so for what will most likely be just another bad product for which there will be no refund for. :/

[Fatboy 18]

Hello 1994 Viper,
Trying to understand this? Surely this would be a tire problem in the wet? What exactly is happening, is the wheel somehow flexing?

Do you have a pic of the exact model wheel. Do the company recommend a particular brand of tire for their wheel to minimise the problem?

[plumcrazy]

can you post some links ? not sure how a wheel can cause this, sounds more like a tire issue

[Nine Ball]

Being a dealer for many wheels, I can explain this. We refer to it as "Rain Wobble". It is NOT specific to iForged.

It is a rare occurrence that can happen with any brand of wheel, that is built using a smooth lip, or soft lip construction. These wheels have the drop-center (the raised hump on the outer hoop) on the backside of the wheel, which makes the wheel lip appear flat/smooth. The opposite construction would be a stepped-lip wheel, with the drop center towards the face of the wheel. So, the smooth lip wheel has a valley between that hump, and the backside of the face of the wheel. This valley can collect water, as there is nowhere for it to escape. Some of you might even observe that puddle form behind the spokes, when washing your car - if you have smooth lip wheels.

That water getting trapped behind the spokes is what throws the wheel balance off. This only happens during HARD rain, as it has to be raining hard enough for water to collect back there. Driving slower usually makes the wobble disappear. When it stops raining, it only takes a few miles for the water to sling its way out, or dissipate. It is just a temporary issue.

Soft Lip (aka "Smoot Lip") wheel shown below. Notice the drop-center hump on the backside of the wheel. The water gets trapped between that hump and the back of the spokes.

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr29/ynotdv8/Deviate%20Motoring%20-%20Wheels%20Gallery/IMG_9324.jpg (http://s466.photobucket.com/user/ynotdv8/media/Deviate%20Motoring%20-%20Wheels%20Gallery/IMG_9324.jpg.html)

Stepped Lip wheel shown below. Notice the hump is directly under the edge of the spokes, and the backside of the wheel is smooth. No place for water to get trapped.

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr29/ynotdv8/Deviate%20Motoring%20-%20Wheels%20Gallery/IMG_8847.jpg (http://s466.photobucket.com/user/ynotdv8/media/Deviate%20Motoring%20-%20Wheels%20Gallery/IMG_8847.jpg.html)

Many people prefer the Soft Lip wheel, because the center forging is 1 inch larger in diameter, so it makes the wheel appear larger to the eye. It also makes the lip appear deeper than a stepped lip. But, the Stepped Lip wheel is lighter, due to the smaller center forging required, and is better for performance. I run both types, depending on the vehicle. Also, monoblock 1-piece wheels generally have the stepped lip internals, with the drop-center hump on the outer face. Those don't trap water, either.

Stepped lip on my '06

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr29/ynotdv8/Viper/GA3-Viper03.jpg (http://s466.photobucket.com/user/ynotdv8/media/Viper/GA3-Viper03.jpg.html)

Soft lip on my '13

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr29/ynotdv8/2013%20Viper/GZ3-20.jpg (http://s466.photobucket.com/user/ynotdv8/media/2013%20Viper/GZ3-20.jpg.html)

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr29/ynotdv8/2013%20Viper/GZ3-14.jpg (http://s466.photobucket.com/user/ynotdv8/media/2013%20Viper/GZ3-14.jpg.html)

Tony

[1994viper]

Thank you Tony for the proper explanation. If ill get a chance ill make a clip of the the violent shake im getting. its was caused by a drizzle and minor wet condition, not a heavy rain in my case. Mayby a water splash from passing cars gets trapped in the wheel. And i have to stop fully for it to go away. And then the car is good for a few miles again...But I guess its not what's important here. What is, is that iforged, admits the issue, but refuses to fix it properly.

[Fatboy 18]

Thanks' Nine Ball
I had never heard about that before, interesting.

[XSnake]

Never heard of this before and never had any issues in the FL downpours.

[plumcrazy]

tony, great news. doesnt sound like its anything iforged needs to address, its a problem with all wheels of that type.

[BlackSnake99]

Just drill some drain holes in the barrel. Problem solved.



:D

[Nine Ball]

tony, great news. doesnt sound like its anything iforged needs to address, its a problem with all wheels of that type.

This. I've had it personally happen to me with every single brand that uses soft lip construction. Including HRE, Forgeline, etc.. It is a water issue. Sometimes guys experience it after washing their cars. It only takes about 1 ounce (weight) of water to noticeably throw the balance off, and much more gets trapped back there. I wouldn't expect any company to "fix" the issue, it is just the nature of the design. The hump is mandatory, if you want to get a tire on the wheel. That reduction in inner diameter is what allows a tire to be stretched over the lip of the wheel. This is one reason I run monoblock wheels or stepped lip wheels on my daily drivers, to avoid the rain wobble.

[Nine Ball]

Never heard of this before and never had any issues in the FL downpours.

Rains a lot in Houston, too. Raining hard today, in fact. What wheels are on your car? Do they have the hump on the backside of the wheel? Do you drive it in hard rain, for several miles? It takes a while for it to accumulate in the wheel. Sideways rain is best at doing it, at least on one side of the car :)

[Ricketts]

Thats good to know info, never knew myself being I don't drive my car on rainy days.

[1994viper]

tony, great news. doesnt sound like its anything iforged needs to address, its a problem with all wheels of that type.
C'mon guy. Do you really think that? Just because many rim manufacturers are not regulated and many produce iffy and dangerous products, it doesn't make it Okay!!! This is exactly why. there are so many regulations in place for so many things, because of thinking like that, and people who run those business who do not stand by their product, when at fault. And apathetically just trying to make more money instead of apologising and fixing the problem. I wonder if a car manufacturer had had put such rim on their cars. They would be recalled in a heart beat and fixed or changed free of charge!. Im not being unreasonable here. iForged has a fix for it and does admit the existence of the issue. I think its their responsibility to absorb the cost of the "fix" ($2 worth of plastic, which they are trying to sell for $30+ to the owners of their flawed wheel) Plus I offered to absorb the cost of installation, and balancing the of wheels.

[Ricketts]

I think its their responsibility to absorb the cost of the "fix" ($2 worth of plastic, which they are trying to sell for $30+ to the owners of their flawed wheel)

What, do they make a plastic insert to fill the valley?

[1994viper]

What, do they make a plastic insert to fill the valley?

They make that:

http://www.iforged.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=5

[XSnake]

Rains a lot in Houston, too. Raining hard today, in fact. What wheels are on your car? Do they have the hump on the backside of the wheel? Do you drive it in hard rain, for several miles? It takes a while for it to accumulate in the wheel. Sideways rain is best at doing it, at least on one side of the car :)

I've had IForged before, I believe they were Astras. I currently have Forgelines and OEM 5 Spokes.

[Fatboy 18]

They make that:

http://www.iforged.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=5Blimey, all the fuss over a $35.00 part!

Have to agree, you would think they would give you a set after your experience!

[Next Phase]

Wait, you drive your Viper in the rain???

[Dan Cragin]

Wow thats very interesting, I have never heard of this in all the years I have been dealing with wheels. I will make sure to let my clients know these soft lip wheels are "fair weather" only.

[MoparBoyy]

Wait, you drive your Viper in the rain???

kind of what i was thinking! I have no issues driving my car in the rain, i have issues with the other drivers more.

[Nine Ball]

Yes, soft lip wheels are okay most of the time, but rain can cause issues. Google search, you'll find numerous cases of the same thing. Example, does this post look familiar?

http://www.clublexus.com/forums/suspension-and-brakes/139637-very-strange-front-end-shake-and-wobble.html

Cures: Driving slower until water dissipates, or carrying a microfiber rag to sop up the trapped water before proceeding further. I've done both. One customer even got crafty and carries a can of compressed air (keyboard cleaner) and sprays the water out of his wheels.

[Fatboy 18]

I don't think any of us would drive our cars in the rain out of choice, however if your traveling to or from a motoring event, sometimes you get caught in a storm :( Traveling to and from Le mans in my Viper springs to mind!

Have to say getting caught in a storm in the Viper is much more enjoyable than Driving an open top AC Cobra! :D

[Nine Ball]

I don't think any of us would drive our cars in the rain out of choice, however if your traveling to or from a motoring event, sometimes you get caught in a storm :( Traveling to and from Le mans in my Viper springs to mind!

The rain wobble of death doesn't prevent a Viper from driving in rain. It does prevent you from going above 55-60 mph in rain, however. The Vipers might not even require hard rain to accumulate water in the wheels, since we have brake cooling ducts that also serve to blow water or light rain/drizzle into the backside of the wheels. Slowing down for a few miles, until the rain is clear, usually works. The water dissipates pretty quickly once it stops raining, usually only a couple miles of slow driving needed.

[Viper Specialty]

I did not see anyone mention during my skim that the iForged wheels were actually redesigned a couple of years ago to minimize this issue. They moved the barrel step for mounting closer to the bolt pad area [or possibly changed suppliers?], reducing the amount of water they are capable of holding. Also, there is a "flapper" that can be added that pushes the water out of this area when driving.

[JohnnyH]

All this time I thought I was the only crazy one that experiences the wobble at higher speeds when I'm caught in the rain. I have 360 Forged and when I'm about 70mph and up my front end violently want shakes up and down. I thought it might have been because my car was really lowered and I messed with the aerodynamics of the car or even the suspension acting funny during wet conditions. When I'm on the interstate, I try to find the closest rest stop and stop there and let the water drain. As soon as I park my car, you can see the water draining out. So if I'm on a short ride, I might have to stop a couple times. If its real bad downpour, I just pull over and let the water drain for a few minutes, continue on my journey going less than 60mph. Its quite annoying.

[intense]

With this being a known issue, you would think wheel retailers would advise customers of this whenever a soft lip set of wheels was purchased. Iforged obviously has a solution - why not reccomend it at purchase? The op dos'nt sound unreasonable, and probably would'nt have minded spending the extra $35 had he been made aware at purchase time. I think that what the op is upset over is that he was'nt made aware and now iforges' buyer beware attitude about it when it'd been really cool of them to have said "oh yeah, sorry, we know about that and really should add a disclaimer about it to our soft lipped wheels. We'll send you a set on us as thanks for dropping $5k+ on a set of wheels". Bet they'd of made a customer for life.

[LATAMUD]

All this time I thought I was the only crazy one that experiences the wobble at higher speeds when I'm caught in the rain. I have 360 Forged and when I'm about 70mph and up my front end violently want shakes up and down. I thought it might have been because my car was really lowered and I messed with the aerodynamics of the car or even the suspension acting funny during wet conditions. When I'm on the interstate, I try to find the closest rest stop and stop there and let the water drain. As soon as I park my car, you can see the water draining out. So if I'm on a short ride, I might have to stop a couple times. If its real bad downpour, I just pull over and let the water drain for a few minutes, continue on my journey going less than 60mph. Its quite annoying.

Same thing but I always experience it at 69, no pun intended, MPH. I've asked others about this thinking it was hydro planing but a little different. I always thought it was the tires.

[Viper Girl]

I thought the OP bought the 05 car with the wheels already on it... and iForged has redesigned the wheel since to avoid this problem for newer purchasers... I guess I read that part wrong...

Also guys with this type of wheel... Does this happen in the rain even if you don't step on the brake? what if you just eased up on the gas to slow down? Just curious...

[Nine Ball]

I thought the OP bought the 05 car with the wheels already on it... and iForged has redesigned the wheel since to avoid this problem for newer purchasers... I guess I read that part wrong...

Also guys with this type of wheel... Does this happen in the rain even if you don't step on the brake? what if you just eased up on the gas to slow down? Just curious...

The wheels have not been redesigned. The outer barrels are only manufactured by 3 or 4 companies, and all of the wheel companies use the same suppliers. The drop center (hump) cannot be moved, it is where it is because it is required to mount a tire on the wheel. You can't simply move it. Sure, narrow wheels will result in a narrower valley between the spokes and drop center, but Vipers run very wide wheels front and rear.

The wobble is worse, the faster you go. I've found that slowing to 55-60, it is barely noticeable. You have to drive for quite a while in the rain for water to accumulate on the back of the wheel, which is why it is rare. Most of us just see an occasional shower to drive through, not hours of driving in rain.

[City]

Okay, im not the one who likes to bitch a lot. But this issue got me going a bit. So I upgrade my 94 to a 05 with iForged wheels a couple of months ago. I really liked the car :) till I got caught in the drizzle. While driving on the highway at 60 mph, I started to having a wobble. So, I naturally got scared and decided to slow the car down by pressing the brake. That's when the whole hell broke loose. It felt like the front was coming apart, and the wheel would come off. The front jumped and hopped so violently that it became unstoppable and barely controllable, to the point where I got scared for my and others lives. I literally thought im going to be another viper casualty.
Later, I go on to the google, and find out its a long known issue with the wheel design. The flaw that iForged has been aware of for a long time, to the extent they actually went ahead and designed a so called water channel diverter which they are trying to charge money for from people who bought their initially unsafe and dangerours product. I have contacted their company in hopes to resolve this issue properly. They have admitted that their wheels will cause vibrations in wet conditions, but yet refused to fix it! Demanding from me that I must buy their fix to their fault at their online store. I think this is absurd, and totally immoral. This is the company that beside producing a dangerous item does not stand by their product or care for human life or safety of others. So, I decided to warn others and give those ....... 30 bucks or so for what will most likely be just another bad product for which there will be no refund for. :/

Hopefully I won't regret chiming into this thread, but I have a bit of concern regarding the potential negative "reping" of iForged. There's actually some fascinating info in here (special thanks to Nine Ball). But if the author is posting a materially serious complaint "iForged unsafe product and bad customer service!" I think this bears some scrutiny. If 1994viper purchased his iForged wheels directly from iForged, then he certainly has a legitimate gripe. However, if he purchased his 2005 Viper WITH iForged wheels already installed, then IMO, I think the serious criticism is undeserved. I have less issue with the discussion than with the thread title which makes serious accusations. It would be helpful if the author added some clarity here. If folks disagree with me, please chime in.

[Viper Girl]

I'd like some clarity too. Seems reasonable to me...

[Nine Ball]

Hopefully I won't regret chiming into this thread, but I have a bit of concern regarding the potential negative "reping" of iForged. There's actually some fascinating info in here (special thanks to Nine Ball). But if the author is posting a materially serious complaint "iForged unsafe product and bad customer service!" I think this bears some scrutiny. If 1994viper purchased his iForged wheels directly from iForged, then he certainly has a legitimate gripe. However, if he purchased his 2005 Viper WITH iForged wheels already installed, then IMO, I think the serious criticism is undeserved. I have less issue with the discussion than with the thread title which makes serious accusations. It would be helpful if the author added some clarity here. If folks disagree with me, please chime in.

Agreed. The title is misleading and paints a bad picture on iForged. That is why I explained that it is not solely an iForged issue. Also, the warranty for iForged is lifetime structural, and 1 year finish. This only applies to the original purchaser. But, this isn't a warranty issue at all. Perhaps the thread title should be changed to say "warning for smooth-lip wheels, driven in rain"

[Viper Girl]

Nine Ball...

Rain or will drizzle do this as well? Just curious...

[Nine Ball]

Water misting and rain blows through the air when driving, especially when following other traffic. It takes several miles for water droplets to collect their way to the back of the wheel. The rain wobble is VERY rare, it requires long periods of driving in heavy rain. That is why you rarely hear about it. I don't see drizzle doing much, unless you drive for several hours in it. Haha

[Janni]

this is fascinating.

Being married to an engineer, it's one thing I never have to worry about - buying something for form over function. ;-)

While the look may be lovely - there's no way in Hades I would have wheels that had this as a known issue. (Realize OP bought car with wheels already installed?)

Certainly iForged COULD provide an update kit for this customer, since he's not the original purchaser - their responsibility likely ended there. But - you'd like to think that they'd send him the upgrade since this is a potential customer relations / review nightmare.

IMO - the thing that separates companies is how they respond to problems. Overall- this is a design issue - so it really should be handled. If it were my company - that's how I would do it.

[CHAP]

Good info thanks

[No hemi]

I'll trade you your iforged for my stock "H" wheels, no wobble here!!!:car-smiley-003:

[KNG SNKE]

Agree with Janni. If it is a design flaw then it should be corrected or recalled. If the potential to cause a wreck is out there then a recall should be issued. Either way if someone got in a wreck due to this flaw and it was determined the wheels were the cause there is a good chance the manufacturer is liable for that wreck if I am not mistaken. I am not a lawyer though.

[LATAMUD]

Does this happen in the rain even if you don't step on the brake? what if you just eased up on the gas to slow down? Just curious...

I've been caught in heavy rain and experience this effect. If a vehicle is driving next to you and hits a puddle and splashes water over it can exacerbate. Obviously increased speed makes it worse. Once it starts I notice it stays until I slow to around 40 mph but accelerating brings it back. To get rid of the feeling I have to pull over then start driving again and keep my speed below 69 mph until I get another splash.

[KNG SNKE]

I've been caught in heavy rain and experience this effect. If a vehicle is driving next to you and hits a puddle and splashes water over it can exacerbate. Obviously increased speed makes it worse. Once it starts I notice it stays until I slow to around 40 mph but accelerating brings it back. To get rid of the feeling I have to pull over then start driving again and keep my speed below 69 mph until I get another splash.

That sounds ridiculous to me. I would ensure it was fixed. Only takes a little wobble to kick a car sideways.

[Janni]

Actually - I'd take the wheels off my car and get some decent OEM takeoffs or suck it up and buy the $35 (?) fix. No amount of posing is worth this potential disaster.

and - just to be clear - this does not appear to be an iForged specific design flaw - it's fluid dynamics or physics or something. Do we know how the other suppliers of this "style" wheel have dealt with this issue?

And thanks everyone for being so informative on this stuff - you really do learn something new every day.

[Wot!]

This post ended up being very helpful. I have member that was having this exact problem but thought it was related to having the top up on his 05 vert. Makes sense now, he only had the top up when it rained. He's very excited to solve his problem.

I do have to say the title is misleading. I hope it gets changed to be a bit more representative of the topic.

I would suggest solving your problem with a small piece of body trim. I would go with chrome. It has a strong 3m backing that I am sure would stay in place and accomplish the same goal of disrupting the water.

I wonder if a rebalance would be needed with what ever you put on the wheel?

[JohnnyH]

Let me know if that Iforged fix really works. I'll have to order me a set to if it does. Although, my rim guy told me it doesn't. But if someone is willing to buy it and test it out it'll be greatly appreciated.

[RTTTTed]

My friend bought new wheels for his '08. They had the water wobble and he called iforged who promptly sold him their fix. Wonder why they wait until someone complains before mentioning the flaw? Being a flaw I think that EVERY wheels sold with the flaw should have the "fix" included in the box.

Not informing customers of the flaw is absolute BS. It's like selling a car on ebay but forgetting to mention that the engine has a dead cylinder that needs to be fixed for full power.

Making bad wheels is OK - as long as you inform people that the wheels aren't for street use in case it rains. Indoor and sunshine use only would be a good notice to put on the box. Kind of like windshield wipers. You may not use them much, but the law requires that they come on the car in case you do need them. I've driven through storms where I could barely see the road and never noticed a wobble in any of my Viper with any of my wheels.

[VYPR BYT]

Tony, thanks for the detailed explanation on the 1st page... very good info.

As an engineer I'd think this whole thing could possibly be precluded by adding like 5 degrees of draft running outward along the entire inside face of the wheel.
That way while spinning, the centrifugal force will then force the water outwards where it needs to be instead of trapping it along the inside. An added benefit is "more draft" also makes it easier to de-mold parts in production.
Interesting thread.

Mike

[Viper Specialty]

I think it needs to be reiterated what NineBall said back on page one. To paraphrase, this affects ALL reverse mount style wheels. This is not just an iForged issue. If you want the "large" outside lip, the mounting "hump" needs to go somewhere else... and that is the back edge of the lip. Pick your battles... if you want "rain capable" wheels, then you don't get reverse mount. If you would prefer the style, then you try not to drive in the rain. That's all there is to it. While I completely agree that things like this should be spelled out, and the wheel manufacturers fail horribly at it, this is not a new issue that anyone cannot find out about within 2 minutes on Google. Saying there is a "problem" with the wheels is like complaining that you got wet in an RT/10 with the top off- you just should have bought a coupe.

All that said, iForged customer service blows. I sell them and have owned multiple sets including a set on my car now, and I still think they are a crappy company to deal with. Their products are good and reasonably priced compared to HRE, but at least HRE answers the phone.

To boil it down, if you have reverse mount wheels, avoid the rain, or slow down if you do get rain wobble. NOT ALL CARS will get it! Cars with brake duct cooling tend to not get it, as they blow the water out of the barrels before it can accumulate. Cars with perfectly balanced wheels tend to not get it (or as badly), as the wheel must be off balance or upset to start the chain of events. This is basic physics with regard to centrifugal forces. The water collects, ruins balance. Out of balance section moves off center alignment, accumulates more water. This out of balance occurrence runs away until the water overflows, or speed decreases enough for balance to re-stabilize.

The iForged "flapper" is one partial solution. It pushes the water out of this area before it can start to accumulate. It helps, but its not 100%. Another solution is to "fill" the water trapping area with some kind of media that takes the place of the water. Easier said than done, and you would need to re-balance after this was done. Thus could also be risky, as it came loose while the car was moving.

Unfortunately, there are no easy true solutions to this. A true fix would be a barrel that was smaller down the center, but then you would have bolt pad access issues on a multi-piece wheel, and a far more complicated manufacturing process, resulting in wheels likely double to triple the price.

[1994viper]

Hello fellow Viper owners. It came to my notice and I have been contacted by authorities of this forum regarding a dislike of the title for this tread. Its been accused of being threatening or missleading


I truly feel that my title isn't threatening or missleading. I believe that they did produce a dangerous product (I notified iForged of such, the did not deny it. The actual quotation on their site reads: "dreaded wheel vibyration problem". Its alarming and frightful vibration which is in turn dangerous. They refused to provide the fix, instead they tried to money grab, hence bed customer service. I think my title is fine.
Thank you
Mark

[KNG SNKE]

[QUOTE=Viper Specialty;2472]I think it needs to be reiterated what NineBall said back on page one. To paraphrase, this affects ALL reverse mount style wheels. This is not just an iForged issue. If you want the "large" outside lip, the mounting "hump" needs to go somewhere else... and that is the back edge of the lip. Pick your battles... if you want "rain capable" wheels, then you don't get reverse mount. If you would prefer the style, then you try not to drive in the rain. That's all there is to it. While I completely agree that things like this should be spelled out, and the wheel manufacturers fail horribly at it, this is not a new issue that anyone cannot find out about within 2 minutes on Google. Saying there is a "problem" with the wheels is like complaining that you got wet in an RT/10 with the top off- you just should have bought a coupe.

QUOTE]

I couldn't disagree more. The correct example your looking for would be buying an RT10 and getting wet with the TOP ON. These wheels were designed to operate on the road and if there is an issue that impacts their proper use on the road it needs to be disclosed. Is there a disclaimer on their website stating the issue? Regardless if it affects all reverse mount styles if it is a KNOWN issue it needs to be disclosed. Why don't they disclose it? Well people would hesitate to buy a set of wheels that can cause you to wreck in rain and it would cost them sales. I can tell you if I sold a product that did not operate as intended (no wheels are intended to operate with a wobble), then the products deficiency should be recalled and corrected. Now if the disclaimer is clearly put out then this is a non issue. I have been around these cars for a while and I have never heard of such an issue until this thread.

[Viper Girl]

94V I believe what has been pointed out several times in this thread... This is an issue with ALL reverse mount style wheels. Not just iForged.

Because of this thread more people are educated about the issue, and can make decisions about future wheel purchases on all wheels of this style.

468


Googled this and found threads that this happens with a lot of brands HRE, DRE and others... It truly isn't just an iForged issue...

[Nine Ball]

Some of you are blowing this rare occurrence out of proportion. So, allow me to interject a similar situation that is common.

Drag radial tires. They are DOT rated and legal for use on the road. But, those of us that choose to run them also understand that they do not work on wet surfaces. You cannot go over 40 mph on some asphalt roads, when the road is even damp, or you'll spin out.

So, are the DOT approved tires a design flaw, or do you accept the consequences to get the benefit or appearance gains from running them?

Same situation.


They refused to provide the fix, instead they tried to money grab, hence bad customer service. I think my title is fine.

Describing yourself as a "customer" implies that you purchased from them, or did business with them. Did you purchase the wheels new? If not, who is to say that the original owner didn't receive such parts, and decided not to install them? Just something to consider. At what point does someone go from being a "customer" to simply an "owner of a product"? If I bought a used Dodge Viper that was out of warranty, would it be reasonable for me to complain to Dodge or assume they owed me something?

[Viper Specialty]

I couldn't disagree more. The correct example your looking for would be buying an RT10 and getting wet with the TOP ON. These wheels were designed to operate on the road and if there is an issue that impacts their proper use on the road it needs to be disclosed. Is there a disclaimer on their website stating the issue? Regardless if it affects all reverse mount styles if it is a KNOWN issue it needs to be disclosed. Why don't they disclose it? Well people would hesitate to buy a set of wheels that can cause you to wreck in rain and it would cost them sales. I can tell you if I sold a product that did not operate as intended (no wheels are intended to operate with a wobble), then the products deficiency should be recalled and corrected. Now if the disclaimer is clearly put out then this is a non issue. I have been around these cars for a while and I have never heard of such an issue until this thread.

I am sorry we don't see eye to eye on this, but I think NineBall nailed it yet again above, and I still think my analogy holds water... no pun intended :D

It is not like if you drive on these wheels in the rain, your car suddenly takes off into a tree and all of the wheels fall off. The wobble will start, and then get progressively worse as you increase speed. This is a high speed problem only, not something that would occur at less than highway speeds. If someone is crazy enough to try and go faster when their car isn't driving correctly, then it is no surprise if they lose control. If you simply slow down a bit, the wobble stops. Even if you have NO IDEA what is happening, this should be a self explanatory solution. If all of your wheel weights fell off tomorrow, and you had a nasty wobble at 60 that gets worse at 65... would you keep going to try out 70? No, you wouldn't. You would slow down until it subsided then keep going.

I really hate to point fingers, but the fact is while this in an "annoyance", the only time it will cause someone to wreck, is if they do something stupid such as try to go faster than prudent for the conditions. This is no different than continuing to increase speed when your car is giving early signs of hydroplaning- you slow down, not speed up. If you speed up, you cannot be surprised or blame the tires for hydroplaning if you lose control; you should blame yourself for operating outside of safe conditions. Honestly, that example is even more forgiving than this one, as you can hydroplane with no warning if you hit deeper water unexpectedly. The condition being discussed here gives PLENTY of warning in every circumstance before it becomes an actual issue instead of just an annoyance.

I do realize that many people have never been told about this, and some may not know, but downsides are often associated with aftermarket components, which may or may not affect you. I can think of DOZENS of examples in the Viper market which are unsafe for the vehicle, engine, etc- and they are not marketed to include any possible downsides in their descriptions, as yes, people may think twice about purchasing. The aftermarket serves a particular market segment, and designs products to work within that general market segment. As soon as someone uses the products outside of the "norm" of intended usage, there is the potential for issues.

Again, in no way am I dismissing the manufacturers lack of a black-and-white notification about which wheels should be used for what purpose.

[Janni]

I think a better title would be: "Unsafe wheel design, crappy iForged customer service"

[City]

Hello fellow Viper owners. It came to my notice and I have been contacted by authorities of this forum regarding a dislike of the title for this tread. Its been accused of being threatening or missleading
I truly feel that my title isn't threatening or missleading. I believe that they did produce a dangerous product (I notified iForged of such, the did not deny it. The actual quotation on their site reads: "dreaded wheel vibyration problem". Its alarming and frightful vibration which is in turn dangerous. They refused to provide the fix, instead they tried to money grab, hence bed customer service. I think my title is fine.
Thank you
Mark
Let's not continue to suggest extremes here. "The authorities" constitutes 2 of us (1 moderator and 1 website committee member) who think this thread is not only fascinating but provides some excellent information as explained in great detail by several knowledgeable members. We take no issue with the thread. We do have a half-hearted singular issue with your chosen title and as such we're pleading with you for some, ANY compromise to soften the "Unsafe Product" claim. As has been discussed in the thread, the unsafe product in question is a specific type of aftermarket wheel, rather than an exclusive iForged wheel. We could have already made the change if we weren't more far more concerned with any possibility of member censorship than with the enjoyment of our fellow members. Since you seem to be outraged at your experience and refuse to consider any change, you might make note of the fact that we've let it go. I only hope you are this outraged with every other manufacturer producing a wheel of this nature as you are effectively not a direct customer of any.

[Chorps]

Some of you are blowing this rare occurrence out of proportion. So, allow me to interject a similar situation that is common.

Drag radial tires. They are DOT rated and legal for use on the road. But, those of us that choose to run them also understand that they do not work on wet surfaces. You cannot go over 40 mph on some asphalt roads, when the road is even damp, or you'll spin out.

So, are the DOT approved tires a design flaw, or do you accept the consequences to get the benefit or appearance gains from running them?

Same situation.

The drag radial tire descriptions I've looked at usually have some sort of caveat regarding the performance and function of the tire... all the reverse mount wheels should have some kind of explanation about the water imbalance potential somewhere in the vendor's ads, IMO.

drag radial examples:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=BFGoodrich&tireModel=g-Force+T%2FA+Drag+Radial

The g-Force T/A Drag Radial meets DOT requirements, however it is not recommended for driving in wet conditions where standing water is present and there is the risk of hydroplaning; drivers should drive cautiously at reduced speeds if they encounter these conditions.

https://www.mickeythompsontires.com/strip.php?item=ETDragRadial

NOT FOR HIGHWAY USE!.

[1994viper]

Yes sir im a customer. I have purchased from them before. And by you, I am just a current owner of the wheels, which I am. Im not here to entertain the possibility of the previous owner receiving the parts and not installing them, as this is just gas lightning statement, without any factual support. It will be the same if i were to speculate scenario where the previous owner had received the parts but they made the issue worse, and he had to take them off. Please, lets not go down that path. I hope that you may see how its different from buying a used car that brakes. This one is more like buying a car that has issues, and puts people in danger or integrity of the product. Even if you are not the original owner, its still good for a recall years down the road. This is clearly a design flaw, which should be properly addressed by the manufactures. This instance its to be iForged.
Also someone compared this to a DOT rated tire not being well on the wet, or even illegal on public roads. This product that i have is not regulated, and sold to the public, without any desire to make it safe properly even when its possible, unlike with slicks. Ill say one thing. If this type of a wheel is to be a possible blame for an accident. Guess whose parties and names will be on a court paper. And from that point we can do gas lightening all we can :). Also, someone compared this issue to getting wet in rt10. I dont think its fair comparison. Its more like loosing roof while driving due to faulty latches...
BTW. Thank you for letting me to keep the title guys. Ill consider, however, changing the title to something like " iForged (rim model number, or general description of wheel design) is dangerous on wet roads, bad customer service. If some one knows the model of the wheel.

[Janni]

Agree with chorps - totally NOT the same.

Tires have varying degrees of performance. All Season tires don't get taken to the racetrack, and drag radials don't get used for monster trucks or mudding. They have strengths and weaknesses (and - as noted- have warnings about using them outside their intended purpose - ESPECIALLY when that purpose is diametrically opposed to the tires main mission...)

I simply don't understand about a WHEEL that can't be driven in the rain. That seems amazingly messed up to me.

[Nine Ball]

Janni,

I've experienced it myself on a few personal sets of wheels, but I'll still put reverse lip wheels on my cars. I'm okay with the slight chance of getting caught in a downpour, and having to slow down temporarily. It isn't asking a lot to slow down in the rain. After a mile or two, the wobble is gone, and I'm able to resume my speed. The wheels can be driven in the rain, just not for excessive periods of time, above 60 mph. It isn't bad enough to make you lose control, because you simply slow down - like Dan mentioned about having a balance weight come off of your wheel.

Educating yourself about what might happen is key. Then when it happens, you will know what is causing the issue, and how to reduce the effect. That is what I'm trying to do here.

You are many, many times more likely to lose control due to hydroplaning a Viper, given it's tire widths on the front and rear. That is a far more dangerous issue than getting some water collecting inside a wheel. Anyone who has driven a Viper in the rain has likely felt it hydroplane. But, we survived. :)

[Viper Girl]

94V Has a really good tire shop balanced these rims since you got them? If they are not balanced then the water exacerbates the problem...
Personally if it was me, and I had a bad experience with any aftermarket part, the part would be off the car in a heartbeat...

Sell them to someone in SoCal, we rarely get rain here... LOL Then if it rains here, no one goes outside... We sit inside and panic while it's raining!

[KNG SNKE]

This is why we post on a forum, not everyone will see eye to eye. If you buy a viper, used, and it has a FACTORY DEFECT for its intended purpose (which Vipers do have factory recalls), then yes I would expect you to expect Dodge to fix it. In my eyes the inability for these type of wheels to drive in the rain is a factory defect and if there is a fix it should be done. Wheels are not cheap, so why screw the customers? Viper's are not the only cars with these types of wheels and a lot of people daily drive in them. Either way there is definitely a design flaw in the wheels and should be addressed.

[Janni]

Upon further review, I can actually agree with this with one caveat - the seller should have disclosed. The wheel manufacturer should disclose the "potential condition" or "performance limitation" of their product, as well as a recommended workaround.

When you know what it is - you can make educated decisions on what you want to put up with. Huge wheels and ultra low profile tires? More prone to bent rims from potholes. Great dry traction of a DOT race tire? Sacrifice wet weather performance. Reverse lip construction? Sacrifice wet weather feel / performance.

Would I ever buy wheels that would exhibit this behavior? No - but I do drive around on my Sport Cups sometimes - fully understanding the risk.

The one difference is that it appears there's a reasonable / manufacturer "fix" for the wheel issue...

I am with Viper Girl - sell 'em in SoCal!


Janni,

I've experienced it myself on a few personal sets of wheels, but I'll still put reverse lip wheels on my cars. I'm okay with the slight chance of getting caught in a downpour, and having to slow down temporarily. It isn't asking a lot to slow down in the rain. After a mile or two, the wobble is gone, and I'm able to resume my speed. The wheels can be driven in the rain, just not for excessive periods of time, above 60 mph. It isn't bad enough to make you lose control, because you simply slow down - like Dan mentioned about having a balance weight come off of your wheel.

Educating yourself about what might happen is key. Then when it happens, you will know what is causing the issue, and how to reduce the effect. That is what I'm trying to do here.

You are many, many times more likely to lose control due to hydroplaning a Viper, given it's tire widths on the front and rear. That is a far more dangerous issue than getting some water collecting inside a wheel. Anyone who has driven a Viper in the rain has likely felt it hydroplane. But, we survived. :)

[1994viper]

I think a better title would be: "Unsafe wheel design, crappy iForged customer service"

This one is okay I guess.

[plumcrazy]

This one is okay I guess.

ok, I changed it

[ViperGTS]

When I do crazy things with my Jeep in the snow - donuts for example...
The snow/ice accumulates in the rims and leads to a heavy WOBBLE.
First time it happened to me I was scared to hell!!!
Stop. Look. Cleaned out the snow from the rims and again -> donuts.
FUN.

But, I would not want to drive a Viper with rims in the rain that collect water and start to wobble - hydroplaning itself is dangerous enough.
Stupid design of the rims.

[1994viper]

When I do crazy things with my Jeep in the snow - donuts for example...
The snow/ice accumulates in the rims and leads to a heavy WOBBLE.
First time it happened to me I was scared to hell!!!
Stop. Look. Cleaned out the snow from the rims and again -> donuts.
FUN.

But, I would not want to drive a Viper with rims in the rain that collect water and start to wobble - hydroplaning itself is dangerous enough.
Stupid design of the rims.


Even after doing this ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xilJLDMAg4 ) for hours in my GX470, topping 85mph, does not effect its drivability, as bed as water in my Viper. . I know what a clogged rim full of snow feels. Its peaches compared to what was going on in my Viper.

[Viper Specialty]

Even after doing this ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xilJLDMAg4 ) for hours in my GX470, topping 85mph, does not effect its drivability, as bed as water in my Viper. . I know what a clogged rim full of snow feels. Its peaches compared to what was going on in my Viper.

I am sorry, but you have other problems going on then my friend. I have a Jeep SRT. I drive in the snow. I do stupid shit in snow-filled parking lots. I also have owned multiple sets of iForged and HRE wheels of varying types, and have driven in the rain more than most seeing as its nearly impossible to do ANYTHING in Buffalo stretching more than a single day without getting stuck in the friggen rain, not to mention moving cars around as needed. There is NO comparison between Rain Wobble and wet snow stuck inside wheels. Not even close.

If I was to guess, you likely have either a bent wheel or barrel defect, a hop, some kind of a wheel imbalance, or a suspension issue of some type that is making this problem worse for you than it should be.

[No hemi]

Offer still stands!!

[1994viper]

Offer still stands!!



Thanks, but NO. However, thank you for keeping my thread alive and fresh. :)

[pony23]

This is filled with good info. I have had the smooth lips wheels in the past and never knew this. I have friends with the same style wheels and will pass this off to them, so they are at least aware of the problem, incase they get caught in the rain.

Thanks Nine Ball for the great explanation.

[Rukcus]

nvm i didn't read the previous post

[commandomatt]

Great thread....and I can see both points made but agree with the buyer beware.

So many products that we buy have an incredible amount of disclosures, warnings, fine print etc........even a cup of Coffee from Mc D has a warning statement. Drives me crazy

Research is the answer. Before you decide to buy something or do something, educate yourself. Then based on what you find out, make a decision. Blaming manufacturers for designs and products they offer is ridiculous in most cases.

I can think of many products that aren't good but still sold without any warnings. One that comes to mind are the 1000's of runflats installed at the factory on our cars.

How many accidents, wrecks and even deaths have they caused ? Were they ever recalled ? How many people are still using them and when they get on a forum like this, they are quickly told to get rid of those tires ASAP ?

If someone buys a Viper with the above mentioned IForged, with runflats installed. Then IForged sucks because they don't take care of a possible issue but Michelin gets no heat for manufacturing a tire that does not work very well as intended.

So where do we draw the line ?

Matt

[KNG SNKE]

The runflats on the car are not being replaced due to a manufacturing defect, completely different scenario. They are being replaced because
A. They are old
B. Their traction is not on par with many other tires


They are not exploding on the street nor causing an unsafe wobble in the vehicle. Also comparing a common sense item such as "Coffee may be hot" is not the same as comparing the purchase of a wheel that wobble's when it rains. "Coffee may be hot" and other ridiculous warnings that you ask yourself why they are written on purchases are just a way to keep stupid people in the gene pool. Now take into consideration the rims. Lets say you drive your vehicle through snow or you have ice build up on your wheel. "Not so" common sense (sarcasm) tells you that you may get a wobble from that yes? Now driving through rain it is not common sense that a wheel will start wobbling due to a faulty design or a design flaw. I've been customizing cars for 16 years now from mild to wild and this thread was the first time I had read anything of this nature.

[commandomatt]

The runflats on the car are not being replaced due to a manufacturing defect, completely different scenario. They are being replaced because
A. They are old
B. Their traction is not on par with many other tires


They are not exploding on the street nor causing an unsafe wobble in the vehicle. Also comparing a common sense item such as "Coffee may be hot" is not the same as comparing the purchase of a wheel that wobble's when it rains. "Coffee may be hot" and other ridiculous warnings that you ask yourself why they are written on purchases are just a way to keep stupid people in the gene pool. Now take into consideration the rims. Lets say you drive your vehicle through snow or you have ice build up on your wheel. "Not so" common sense (sarcasm) tells you that you may get a wobble from that yes? Now driving through rain it is not common sense that a wheel will start wobbling due to a faulty design or a design flaw. I've been customizing cars for 16 years now from mild to wild and this thread was the first time I had read anything of this nature.

OK so...

- In your opinion, the run flats were perfectly ok and capable of handling the Vipers performance needs 100% ?
- Are you saying that these wheels, and any other with the same design are defective ?
- Car was bought used. Lets say there was a 'warning label' included with the wheels when purchased. If this then doesn't get passed along to the next owner, is it still the manufacturers problem even though they let it be known at the time of purchase ?
- If you in your 16 year of customizing have never heard of an issue like this with these wheel designs.....how common do you really think it is?
- Could it, for arguments sake, be somewhat related to how the car is driven in severe weather or, as been mentioned, there is something far more serious causing this 'wobble' such as other defective/worn out parts. The wheel may just accentuate the symptom ?
- It has been mentioned that several manufacturers use this design. So again......how big of a problem is this really ?
- I am not comparing the warning labels on Coffee directly with the wheel issue. I would really hope you would understand that. I am just talking about being overloaded with warnings everywhere we go. At some point it comes down to taking responsibility and not blaming others when there is a problem.

Matt

[KNG SNKE]

You seem to forget the ZR1 came with run flats as well. The problem with those tires was the drivers. Dogging on your car on street roads where uneven pavement, dirt etc is dangerous, i know this first hand.

If the wheels have issues driving in the rain, it is a design defect. They are WHEELS for an automobile. Though people like their cars and keep them in garages they are meant to be driven outside. Same thing if a new buyer buys a car from someone who didn't have a recall done. It is a design flaw any way you look at it.

Not sure how it can be related to how the car is driven. I only read what's in this thread and the disturbing info will keep me away from 3 piece wheels. Almost bought a set last year too. Glad I didn't.

No idea how big the problem is. As stated this is the first I have read about the issue. That bothers me. This is a potential safety issue. Your right, people have to take responsibility but if the information is not provided than that is not ok. I'm very big on safety related things and I'm glad I read this honestly. Not worth the risk.

[parabs]

Being a dealer for many wheels, I can explain this. We refer to it as "Rain Wobble". It is NOT specific to iForged.

It is a rare occurrence that can happen with any brand of wheel, that is built using a smooth lip, or soft lip construction. These wheels have the drop-center (the raised hump on the outer hoop) on the backside of the wheel, which makes the wheel lip appear flat/smooth. The opposite construction would be a stepped-lip wheel, with the drop center towards the face of the wheel. So, the smooth lip wheel has a valley between that hump, and the backside of the face of the wheel. This valley can collect water, as there is nowhere for it to escape. Some of you might even observe that puddle form behind the spokes, when washing your car - if you have smooth lip wheels.

That water getting trapped behind the spokes is what throws the wheel balance off. This only happens during HARD rain, as it has to be raining hard enough for water to collect back there. Driving slower usually makes the wobble disappear. When it stops raining, it only takes a few miles for the water to sling its way out, or dissipate. It is just a temporary issue.

Soft Lip (aka "Smoot Lip") wheel shown below. Notice the drop-center hump on the backside of the wheel. The water gets trapped between that hump and the back of the spokes.

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr29/ynotdv8/Deviate%20Motoring%20-%20Wheels%20Gallery/IMG_9324.jpg (http://s466.photobucket.com/user/ynotdv8/media/Deviate%20Motoring%20-%20Wheels%20Gallery/IMG_9324.jpg.html)

Stepped Lip wheel shown below. Notice the hump is directly under the edge of the spokes, and the backside of the wheel is smooth. No place for water to get trapped.

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr29/ynotdv8/Deviate%20Motoring%20-%20Wheels%20Gallery/IMG_8847.jpg (http://s466.photobucket.com/user/ynotdv8/media/Deviate%20Motoring%20-%20Wheels%20Gallery/IMG_8847.jpg.html)

Many people prefer the Soft Lip wheel, because the center forging is 1 inch larger in diameter, so it makes the wheel appear larger to the eye. It also makes the lip appear deeper than a stepped lip. But, the Stepped Lip wheel is lighter, due to the smaller center forging required, and is better for performance. I run both types, depending on the vehicle. Also, monoblock 1-piece wheels generally have the stepped lip internals, with the drop-center hump on the outer face. Those don't trap water, either.

Stepped lip on my '06

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr29/ynotdv8/Viper/GA3-Viper03.jpg (http://s466.photobucket.com/user/ynotdv8/media/Viper/GA3-Viper03.jpg.html)

Soft lip on my '13

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr29/ynotdv8/2013%20Viper/GZ3-20.jpg (http://s466.photobucket.com/user/ynotdv8/media/2013%20Viper/GZ3-20.jpg.html)

http://i466.photobucket.com/albums/rr29/ynotdv8/2013%20Viper/GZ3-14.jpg (http://s466.photobucket.com/user/ynotdv8/media/2013%20Viper/GZ3-14.jpg.html)

Tony

As many have said,

"I didn't know this"!

Thanks for another informative post!!

[Hathoway]

Buyer beware, not of the brand in this case, but of the product you are buying. The risk associated with the specific type of wheel in this thread is interesting and eye opening.

+1 on the informative post Nine Ball; you learn something new every day.

[Rtizzle]

They make that:

http://www.iforged.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=5

Great post! Thanks for the heads up. Learned something new.