Timing Cover Leak

[My98RT10]

So, after 5 years of flawless operation of my 98 RT/10 I have to tackle the first issue. After returning from a local US car event I noticed the pictured leak during my regular post drive inspection. Does not seem to be uncommon for a 98 Dodge Viper ...

Read a lot about the repair on the 3 major forums and eventually decided to do it myself. To make it a bit more challenging I am doing it with the hood and cross member in place... and without a lift LOL

It took me a week of some after work wrenching (including some hours over the weekend) to get this little sucker out. So far, everything went smoothly, I hope putting it back together will work just as fine.

I will share my experience a bit more in detail here.

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/My98ViperRT10/Timing%20Cover/DSC_1036_zpsqh4hhtvu.jpg

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/My98ViperRT10/Timing%20Cover/DSC_0098_zpsgtbtqgzl.jpg

[My98RT10]

BTW: Need to thank The Wizard for supplying me with the needed parts so quickly! Very much appreciated, Chuck!!

[dave6666]

Don't put it back together using the cheap Mopar factory paper gaskets. Use the Cometic gaskets. An actual... upgrade.

[supersnake]

In the left of your top pic is that a crack in the housing?

[Boosted Motorsports]

Don't put it back together using the cheap Mopar factory paper gaskets. Use the Cometic gaskets. An actual... upgrade.

Whats wrong with a gasket that lasts 20 years? Or do you just call everything you recommend an upgrade?

[Viper Specialty]

Whats wrong with a gasket that lasts 20 years? Or do you just call everything you recommend an upgrade?

Rather than trying to backhandedly discredit Dave, how about a little engineering background and actual experience to back it up?

If the gasket lasted 20 years, and FAILED, then the answer is self evident; it has a design flaw. An untouched gasket should not fail... EVER.

Beyond that, Gen-2 timing cover gasket failures are known to fail somewhat commonly. They are known to promote surface corrosion. They are known to be a nightmare to disassemble and clean up. they are known to have little embedability or imperfect surface tolerance. So, knowing all that, if you still install Mopar gaskets rather than an alternative that has NONE of those issues or failure points, and costs the same... you are either short-sighted, or just plain lazy.

[98RedGTS]

To be fair, I'm 99% sure he was just poking at Dave as they go back and forth on "upgrades". Pretty sure he's not arguing that your stuff is not really an upgrade over OEM.

[Viper Specialty]

To be fair, I'm 99% sure he was just poking at Dave as they go back and forth on "upgrades". Pretty sure he's not arguing that your stuff is not really an upgrade over OEM.

Ah, OK. Did not know that.... thought he was being serious.

[Rxmfn7]

That one gasket was a nightmare to remove. Mine wasn't leaking, but broke off in tiny sections and took literally hours of scraping to get it all off. If the new one from VSP solves even that inconvenience if I ever have to remove again, it will be worth it alone.

[My98RT10]

In the left of your top pic is that a crack in the housing?

Jesus, no. This is just a shadow from the flash photography...

[My98RT10]

Rather than trying to backhandedly discredit Dave, how about a little engineering background and actual experience to back it up?

If the gasket lasted 20 years, and FAILED, then the answer is self evident; it has a design flaw. An untouched gasket should not fail... EVER.

Beyond that, Gen-2 timing cover gasket failures are known to fail somewhat commonly. They are known to promote surface corrosion. They are known to be a nightmare to disassemble and clean up. they are known to have little embedability or imperfect surface tolerance. So, knowing all that, if you still install Mopar gaskets rather than an alternative that has NONE of those issues or failure points, and costs the same... you are either short-sighted, or just plain lazy.

Well, if the new one lasts another 20 years I am fine... finally I need to hand down some of the fun to my son(s)....:D

[Boosted Motorsports]

Rather than trying to backhandedly discredit Dave, how about a little engineering background and actual experience to back it up?

If the gasket lasted 20 years, and FAILED, then the answer is self evident; it has a design flaw. An untouched gasket should not fail... EVER.

Beyond that, Gen-2 timing cover gasket failures are known to fail somewhat commonly. They are known to promote surface corrosion. They are known to be a nightmare to disassemble and clean up. they are known to have little embedability or imperfect surface tolerance. So, knowing all that, if you still install Mopar gaskets rather than an alternative that has NONE of those issues or failure points, and costs the same... you are either short-sighted, or just plain lazy.

Oh I fully support your thesis and explanation. I just used one of your cometic gaskets for the IM and thermostat housing myself. ;)


To be fair, I'm 99% sure he was just poking at Dave as they go back and forth on "upgrades". Pretty sure he's not arguing that your stuff is not really an upgrade over OEM.

Bingo! Stock or die says Dave lol

[My98RT10]

When reading about the gasket replacement procedure one of the key challenges is supposed to be removing that fat crank bolt. I thought that I will not mess around with my normal 1/2" breaker bar, I got myself a 3/4" breaker bar and a matching 31mm impact socket.

As you can depict from the pictures, this IS an UPGRADE!! Note the much thicker 3/4" socket (both are 31mm)...

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/My98ViperRT10/Timing%20Cover/DSC_0051_zps0ctxugn8.jpg

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/My98ViperRT10/Timing%20Cover/DSC_0052_zpsjmm9hibo.jpg

It almost goes without saying that it made the job quite easy, no cheater bar needed!

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/My98ViperRT10/Timing%20Cover/DSC_0037_zpsekwwch8h.jpg

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/My98ViperRT10/Timing%20Cover/DSC_0049_zpsouihql5t.jpg

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/My98ViperRT10/Timing%20Cover/DSC_0054_zps2ufabvxm.jpg

[Boosted Motorsports]

Dave6666

1/2" bar did not snap therefore NOT an UPGRADE

jkjk :lol2:

[My98RT10]

So, next point on the agenda was the balancer removal. I got myself a universal puller for little money. Of course, the bolts coming with the puller set turned out to be too long as the steering rack is in the way. So I went to get some shorter bolts. Main challenge here was to find a shorter center bolt, which in my case is a M18x1,5. But thanks to the internet, I found them and ordered different lengths. A 60mm lenght worked just fine...

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/My98ViperRT10/Timing%20Cover/DSC_0080_zps7gfigq0r.jpg

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/My98ViperRT10/Timing%20Cover/DSC_0087_zps9lpulw95.jpg

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/My98ViperRT10/Timing%20Cover/DSC_0091_zps0uhmqw6g.jpg

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/My98ViperRT10/Timing%20Cover/DSC_0094_zpscawyq64o.jpg

[My98RT10]

Dave6666


jkjk :lol2:

Anticipation rules!! LOL

[challenger]

The Cometic gaskets from Dan are the best. Did mine 2 years ago.

[SlowPoke McGee]

Rather than trying to backhandedly discredit Dave, how about a little engineering background and actual experience to back it up?

If the gasket lasted 20 years, and FAILED, then the answer is self evident; it has a design flaw. An untouched gasket should not fail... EVER.

Beyond that, Gen-2 timing cover gasket failures are known to fail somewhat commonly. They are known to promote surface corrosion. They are known to be a nightmare to disassemble and clean up. they are known to have little embedability or imperfect surface tolerance. So, knowing all that, if you still install Mopar gaskets rather than an alternative that has NONE of those issues or failure points, and costs the same... you are either short-sighted, or just plain lazy.

Curious to know how many Cometic gaskets in this exact application have been tested to the 20 year mark. Dan were you even out of High school 20 years ago?

[Viper Specialty]

Curious to know how many Cometic gaskets in this exact application have been tested to the 20 year mark. Dan were you even out of High school 20 years ago?

Out of High School? No. But probably already had more engineering ability than most :lol2:

To raise your point, I can tell you that our Cometic gaskets certainly have a better track record than all of the Mopar gaskets -already- without even needing to wait 20 years. A 20 year failure on Mopar gaskets is a gift... tons of them failed a decade or more ago. Cometic failures? If properly installed, zero to my knowledge. Kinda cements the case.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the shortcomings of certain gasket materials and designs, why they fail, and realize that the alternatives are not subject to those failure points.

Your turn.

[dave6666]

Your turn.

All he ever has is drivel. Might as well call it a thread.

[SlowPoke McGee]

Out of High School? No. But probably already had more engineering ability than most :lol2:

To raise your point, I can tell you that our Cometic gaskets certainly have a better track record than all of the Mopar gaskets -already- without even needing to wait 20 years. A 20 year failure on Mopar gaskets is a gift... tons of them failed a decade or more ago. Cometic failures? If properly installed, zero to my knowledge. Kinda cements the case.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the shortcomings of certain gasket materials and designs, why they fail, and realize that the alternatives are not subject to those failure points.

Your turn.

How long have your Cometic gaskets been in use for the Dodge Viper?

[Viper Specialty]

How long have your Cometic gaskets been in use for the Dodge Viper?

Btw, my Toyota Tundra needs a new timing cover gasket and it's only 5 years old. Do you suspect Toyota Tundra's have faulty timing cover gaskets too? If by your logic they should never leak, I have to assume this is the case.

Going on 13 years there Junior.

And I believe you answered your own question if that is a common problem on the Tundras.

Do you have a point?

[SlowPoke McGee]

Going on 13 years there Junior.

And I believe you answered your own question if that is a common problem on the Tundras.

Do you have a point?

You responded back to me before I had a chance to edit my post. It's actually the left and right cam plate covers that are leaking. I didn't say this was a common problem with Tundras...Is it?

13 years with no leaks seems like a pretty solid track record. My guess is most Mopar would meet the same milestone though. Lets see how the next 10 years go before we claim victory though k?

[Viper Specialty]

You responded back to me before I had a chance to edit my post. It's actually the left and right cam plate covers that are leaking. I didn't say this was a common problem with Tundras...Is it?

13 years with no leaks seems like a pretty solid track record. My guess is most Mopar would meet the same milestone though. Lets see how the next 10 years go before we claim victory though k?

LOL. you can wait another ten years. The rest of us used real engineering years ago to answer the question.

Be sure to post up in 2027 and ask if its leaking yet ;)

I am sure that all of the products you use every day or the cars you drive all were engineered with a 20 year delay on problem solving. Because, well, time will tell.

[My98RT10]

Here's an update on my endeavour (not that you think I have given up on this :D)...

Meanwhile I have everything back together again and I am now filling up the fluids. Hope to fire it up later today....

Timing cover back on

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/My98ViperRT10/Timing%20Cover/DSC_0129_zpshgijxhos.jpg


http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/My98ViperRT10/Timing%20Cover/DSC_0127_zpsu3bv1dxg.jpg

Crank seal just before driven into place

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/My98ViperRT10/Timing%20Cover/DSC_0131_zpsp11bhbsg.jpg

New torque wrench (100-500Nm)

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/My98ViperRT10/Timing%20Cover/DSC_0132_zpsgc5olog6.jpg

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/My98ViperRT10/Timing%20Cover/DSC_0137_zpsugtzz3as.jpg

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/My98ViperRT10/Timing%20Cover/DSC_0134_zps4jchibgn.jpg

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/My98ViperRT10/Timing%20Cover/DSC_0135_zpsnuj7j4ly.jpg

Balancer installed (340Nm + high strength Loctite)

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/My98ViperRT10/Timing%20Cover/DSC_0141_zpsbmlobgwp.jpg

Next is water pump

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/My98ViperRT10/Timing%20Cover/DSC_0142_zps5dwpbe5x.jpg

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/My98ViperRT10/Timing%20Cover/DSC_0149_zpsgohqtjzt.jpg

Generator & pulleys

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/My98ViperRT10/Timing%20Cover/DSC_0153_zpsm2aup3wg.jpg

[Hrysler]

Looking great! It's nice not having to run to a mechanic every time there's a problem. Plus a good feeling of accomplishment when your done.:-)

[A2008]

Not ever having done this, wouldn't it have been easier to insert the crankcase seal into the cover before putting it on??

[My98RT10]

Not ever having done this, wouldn't it have been easier to insert the crankcase seal into the cover before putting it on??

You mean the crankshaft seal? No, at least it is not recommended as you are very likely to twist the seal lips when putting the cover back on, resulting in a leaking seal.... Also, to install the seal afterwards is not an issue at all, so why running the risk?

[My98RT10]

Looking great! It's nice not having to run to a mechanic every time there's a problem. Plus a good feeling of accomplishment when your done.:-)

To be honest, the first thought that came to mind when I detected the leak was: "WTF, now I'll have to give the car to someone to fix it" Something I wanted to avoid as much as possible as I don't have someone like The Wizard or comparable close to me. The decision to do it myself grew slowly over time... step by step I made myself familiar with the process and eventually I developed enough confidence to tackle it. First time for me doing such kind of work... but thanks to the Viper, it is doable. But without all the information I found in the internet I think I would not have done it. Also, the Wizard provided a helping hand (or two.. no wait, probably half a dozen ;-)) buy answering questions I had! Thanks again, Chuck!

Key success factor for a happy end in this case (or similar ones) is to take your time. Don't do it in a hurry! Only perform the next step if you exactly know what to do, how to do it and why! If you have the slightest doubts, don't go ahead. Have a break. Go back studying until you have cleared any remaining doubts.

[Boosted Motorsports]

Nice work!!!

[My98RT10]

Nice work!!!

Thanks!

[My98RT10]

Ok, I took the car for a spin a few times now. So far, everything looks good, no leaks. The car fired right up, I was a bit nervous when turning the key, I have to say....

I realized that I didn't post a pic of the timing cover removed... so here it is...

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q800/My98ViperRT10/Timing%20Cover/DSC_0110_zpsykxtemeu.jpg

I will consider this case now closed ;-)

[Fatboy 18]

Well Done and thanks for the Pics, thats a nice looking Torque wrench.

[My98RT10]

Well Done and thanks for the Pics, thats a nice looking Torque wrench.

Happy to lend it to you, should you have a need! Local pick-up only though...;)

I called a few places that rent tools but none of them had a wrench of the required caliber... :(

[Rxmfn7]

Just curious if you had primed the oil pump in any way before you tried to start back up? I have mine just about back together after a cam install, and being everything was dry was trying to think of a way to get some oil into the pump before I tried to start.

[Camfab]

I cant remember which module it was, (10 years ago) but I cranked it quite a few times until I figured out it wasn't plugged in. Anyway, no fuel or spark was provided, but at least it gave the pump some time to prime before the engine fired up.

[My98RT10]

I did not prime the oil pump in particular. But it wasn't dry as such. Some oil of course dripped out over the course of the project. Oil pressure was built up right away according to the gauge, I kept an eye on it when starting the car. So I believe, it should be ok. I pre-filled the oil filter, however, as I usually do when changing oil w/ filter...

[My98RT10]

I cant remember which module it was, (10 years ago) but I cranked it quite a few times until I figured out it wasn't plugged in. Anyway, no fuel or spark was provided, but at least it gave the pump some time to prime before the engine fired up.

Might have been the camshaft sensor. This one you'll have to disconnect when removing the cover. I'd think, that it won't start without this input signal.

[Fatboy 18]

Just curious if you had primed the oil pump in any way before you tried to start back up? I have mine just about back together after a cam install, and being everything was dry was trying to think of a way to get some oil into the pump before I tried to start.

You can pull the fuel relay in the trunk if you are worried :)

[98RedGTS]

Am I missing something? What is the point of priming the oil system by spinning the engine over without it firing? It's not the firing that causes wear it's the spinning of the motor without oil pressure that causes damage thus spinning it over with our without firing the engine seems to be the same to me.

[AZTVR]

Just curious if you had primed the oil pump in any way before you tried to start back up? I have mine just about back together after a cam install, and being everything was dry was trying to think of a way to get some oil into the pump before I tried to start.


Am I missing something? What is the point of priming the oil system by spinning the engine over without it firing? It's not the firing that causes wear it's the spinning of the motor without oil pressure that causes damage thus spinning it over with our without firing the engine seems to be the same to me.

Definitely I would not prefer to turn the engine over without oil pressure, that is why Rxmfn7 asked his question. However, spinning the engine without it firing makes the exposure to low oil pressure much less at cranking speed of 60 rpm rather than at firing speed of 1000-2000 rpm.

The question is, what is a good way to prime the pump on the Viper V10? Obviously you can't pull a distributor and access the pump drive to spin it with an electric drill.

I have seen a process for priming an inaccessible pump and engine with a pressurized oil tank connected to the oil pressure sensor port as an optional method.

[gage]

Had to replace my gasket last year (97 GTS) due to it failing and dropping coolant everywhere. It was a severe failure, not "weeping" or a slow leak. I opted to upgrade a ton of stuff such as silicone hoses, radiator (since mine was quite in poor shape) and upgrading the coolant fan on my 97 to the bigger one. My fan bearing was toast and eating the shroud, so it was a neccesary upgrade. I also replaced the water pump as well as a few other things. All in all the car is MUCH cooler now with the bigger capacity radiator, bigger fan, and no leaks in the cooling system :)

[Ttillots]

Any idea where I could find a cometic timing cover gasket for a Gen 2? I’m in need and it’s a nightmare to find anything. Any direction is really appreciated, thank you.

[Viper98]

Have you tried:
Dan Lesser
Viper Specialty Performance

[Ttillots]

I have not, I've tried Google with Mopar part numbers and calling the Dodge parts department. Also, MyMoparParts which didn't have anything. I'll give Viper Specialty Performance a try, any other suggestions is also appreciated! Thank you

[71firebird400]

As far as I know, these are only available through Dan as he helped develop them.

[Ttillots]

Awesome, I did find some available on http://viperspecialtyperformance.com that seem to be made with a better material including the aluminum built inside. Seems like my best bet. Thank you!

[My98RT10]

I think you can get them also through Roe Racing..!

[Ttillots]

Guys,

I would highly not recommend Viper Specialty Performance. I can go on and on about the reasoning, but man... the customer service is aggressive and extremely forceful. I have been able to find custom head gaskets out of Stainless Steel no problem at Cometic Gaskets. I'm back in the search for Lower Gen 1 and Upper Gen 1 Gasket/Seal Packages. Still going to piece together what I can between Viper Parts Rack America and Roe Racing. Cometic wants to quote the whole package, so I might go that route. I'm not 100% sure, I'll update everyone with a final result as I'm sure it can help someone else in the future. Take Care

[My98RT10]

Sorry, might be my bad English but what is exactly the issue??

[Viper Specialty]

Guys,

I would highly not recommend Viper Specialty Performance. I can go on and on about the reasoning, but man... the customer service is aggressive and extremely forceful. I have been able to find custom head gaskets out of Stainless Steel no problem at Cometic Gaskets. I'm back in the search for Lower Gen 1 and Upper Gen 1 Gasket/Seal Packages. Still going to piece together what I can between Viper Parts Rack America and Roe Racing. Cometic wants to quote the whole package, so I might go that route. I'm not 100% sure, I'll update everyone with a final result as I'm sure it can help someone else in the future. Take Care


Or, you can tell the truth... that you both tried to get me to change our current shipping policies while working remotely by breaking down gasket kits which I said I cannot and will not do for multiple reasons in this case, and also that your reasons for doing so are completely bogus, because I know with certainty that whoever you think you are going to undercut me with is NOT selling the same parts we are, and in this case, is not even selling you the correct parts for your application.

You refuse to buy a complete and correct gasket kit, therefore, you can shop elsewhere. Its as simple as that. I am not going to break out parts of the kits and ship them all over the country just because you incorrectly think you are going to get some "deal" somewhere. A deal so good that the retail price is lower than the highest level distributor cost. Yeah, I am sure that's legit and correct.

Or did you miss the part about where we designed and brought out all of these gaskets and packages a decade ago? Pretty sure I *kinda* know what I am selling, and what makes sense to do or not to do.

If you are looking for a vendor to give you a reach-around, you have the wrong guy. If you are looking for a vendor that will make damn sure you get exactly what you need, then thats me. Sorry you dont feel that way.

[nrs1]

I big positive vote for Dan and VSP. I have purchased a complete gasket set from him, among other items, and I definitely needed everything he included. Why piece-meal, trying to save pennies and not get the best of everything. But as he said, you have choices, but I choose to stick with the experts.

[Ttillots]

Well, it started off with me asking about the website being down and I was unable to buy. Then it turned into me sending him an order for $521 US dollars worth of gaskets and seals however he wouldn't accept my order unless I purchased his Head Gasket/Upper Gen 1 gasket package for $579. I told him my machine shop already found head gaskets (Because we bored the car out and had custom sized pistons) that were for only $254 for pair. He then went on a rant telling me the following attached. Before all this even started when I sent my first question about the website not working, he told me I wasn't able to buy any gaskets anywhere else because he owned all the rights to all Viper Seals. 3524535246

[dzambron]

Dan of Viper Specialty has always been a straight shooter. He is not cheap but his quality is top notch. If you want your viper to be taken care of Dan is the guy. If you want to shop around for the cheapest price perhaps a Viper is not the car for you.

[Ttillots]

No one said anything about him being cheap? I'm saying he wouldn't sell me anything because I have custom head gaskets that my machine shop is getting from their source? So what.. I'm not allowed to purchase everything else I need because I'm already taken care of on the head gaskets? I honestly don't know what to believe at this point. I think Dan has teamed up with two accounts on here trying to make sure I don't make him look bad and direct any of his future customers away. DO NOT BELIEVE THEM! specially accounts that were Created Nov 2018. I'm done here, no longer wasting my time getting scammed. I hope this helps whoever runs into this in the future. Roe Racing is a legit source, go there.

[ViperTony]

No one said anything about him being cheap? I'm saying he wouldn't sell me anything because I have custom head gaskets that my machine shop is getting from their source? So what.. I'm not allowed to purchase everything else I need because I'm already taken care of on the head gaskets? I honestly don't know what to believe at this point. I think Dan has teamed up with two accounts on here trying to make sure I don't make him look bad and direct any of his future customers away. DO NOT BELIEVE THEM! specially accounts that were Created Nov 2018. I'm done here, no longer wasting my time getting scammed. I hope this helps whoever runs into this in the future. Roe Racing is a legit source, go there.

Good grief....you're so full of fail its almost a win!

[Viper Specialty]

I am not sure whats funnier at this point. The fact that he thinks Dave above is also me, or the fact that he thinks he is going to get anybody else's parts by buying them through Roe Racing... we supply gaskets to Roe as well.

Like I said, sorry things didn't work out, and good luck. When you finally figure out that just maybe you don't have all the facts straight, feel free to let me know you need me to get you the right parts. Hate me all you want, but I will still get the right stuff in your hands, and make sure you or your installer don't screw up the job because someone decided to listen to the wrong people.

[Ttillots]

For whom it may concern, you can buy direct through Cometic Gasket 1-800-752-9850. They have every gasket you need for your Vioer with each of their proprietary part numbers. I was able to get my custom head gaskets and every other gasket I needed. Highly recommend! https://www.cometic.com/

[lane_viper]

I know this is an older Thread, but I recently just went through this repair on my "new to me" 96 GTS I bought last summer.

After realizing the mopar stock gaskets were paper, I definitely wanted the Cometic.

Dan could not have been more helpful in getting the gaskets I needed.

Thanks again Dan for the great product and fast service.

Lane

[dave6666]

Just don't ask Dan about his general contractor when you chat with him. Wrong topic.

[dave6666]

No one said anything about him being cheap? I'm saying he wouldn't sell me anything because I have custom head gaskets that my machine shop is getting from their source? So what.. I'm not allowed to purchase everything else I need because I'm already taken care of on the head gaskets? I honestly don't know what to believe at this point. I think Dan has teamed up with two accounts on here trying to make sure I don't make him look bad and direct any of his future customers away. DO NOT BELIEVE THEM! specially accounts that were Created Nov 2018. I'm done here, no longer wasting my time getting scammed. I hope this helps whoever runs into this in the future. Roe Racing is a legit source, go there.

You seem like an absolute douchebag.