How to tell whether a gen 2 has forged internals or not

[murksyou]

Does anyone know of a way to tell whether a gen 2 engine has forged internals besides the model year? I'm asking because I have seen a few MY2000 gen 2's with 1999 build dates.

[Fatboy 18]

My car was Built Dec 1999 but does not have forged internals. 2000 Creampuff

[plumcrazy]

jonB might be able to shed some light on this

[Boosted Motorsports]

That would be pretty cool if this was the case! Should be an engine code stamped that would indicate. I have a 1999 build date with the Koni shocks ACR but doubt I have a forged motor. I'll go buy a s/c right now if i do :lol2:

[Bill Pemberton]

There are plenty of 2000s with 99 build dates. They have hypereutectic pistons -----------------------and remember, the fastest bone stock Gen II run was at Englishtown with a 11.7 pass ( 2000 Red RT-10 )

[Stealth78]

Bill, but in all seriousness do you really think that it is a clear divided line? It would seem surprising if somewhere in the model year change that either engine production was low and a creampuff landed in a 1999, or there were possibly a few forged engines that landed in a 2000 model year car. As the OP has indicated it would be really interesting to know if anyone has maybe a late summer build date in 1999 with a 2000 model that could potentially have a forged motor. Without tearing into the engine what would indicate signs of one or the other?

[plumcrazy]

There are plenty of 2000s with 99 build dates. They have hypereutectic pistons -----------------------and remember, the fastest bone stock Gen II run was at Englishtown with a 11.7 pass ( 2000 Red RT-10 )

wasnt that paul in a black rt ?

[ViperTony]

There are plenty of 2000s with 99 build dates. They have hypereutectic pistons -----------------------and remember, the fastest bone stock Gen II run was at Englishtown with a 11.7 pass ( 2000 Red RT-10 )

Bill, it's common knowledge to those of us who have been following Vipers for a long time. But someone that's new to this world how would they be able to tell on the '95 below that it has forged pistons? Without coming to the forums? https://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/cto/6052660555.html Build sheet if it exists?

[LATAMUD]

Couldn't you just pull the oil pan and inspect the pistins from under neath?

[Camfab]

Bottom line is that you can't tell. Just because a car was built in '99 doesn't mean it has '99 spec pieces. The engines were redesigned for MY 2000. One note that most people don't know about the 2000 model year is that there was an engine block update which occurred somewhere if my memory serves me correctly in Nov of '99. The early blocks (2000 MY prior to Nov) had a special sleeve material that was absolutely bullet proof if I recall. The problem was most individuals couldn't/didn't break them in properly. These motors when broken in right were ringers for sure. Apparently so many people had issues burning oil that Dodge reverted back to the old sleeves. The 2000 engine incorporated a longer rod, much shorter lighter piston which certainly was a tighter engine, when coupled with those sleeves it made great power. That's, my friends why the 2000 MY kicked butt.
So the real question is........... do you have one of those original blocks? Was your car one of the ones sent back to Arrow Racing to be converted to the old sleeves? Remember that '99 and earlier forged pistons were larger, heavier, and would require the earlier shorter rods as well as a complete engine rebalance. You have to realize that your talking about a seventeen year old car, and I'm guessing your not the original owner. 2000 model year Vipers also have a ten QT oil pan. Hope this helps......

Yes LATAMUD is correct, if you knew what your looking at, one could tell by dropping the pan.

[slitherv10]

There are plenty of 2000s with 99 build dates. They have hypereutectic pistons -----------------------and remember, the fastest bone stock Gen II run was at Englishtown with a 11.7 pass ( 2000 Red RT-10 )

Nor sure he cares how fast it may be if it has forged. I think he wants to know in general. Besides, 1 car going .2 seconds faster than another could have so many factors it would make your head spin. I know a 2000 RT-10 that did a 13.2 pass.

[Bill Pemberton]

Pretty sure this did not happen, because if you went to the Plant in 99 for a 2000 ( which I did ) the Employees all wanted to tell you about the new motor in all 2000s. They were not shy about telling you the advantages and the increase in horsepower , though not shown on paper. Only a month or two later there was a complete cease and desist order at the Plant and the motor was no longer discussed since there was a strong battle raging in SCCA with Corvette and they did not want the information out there. Viper Days had over $50,000 held back by Dodge as the Class Matrix placed points on the 2000 models over earlier models. Money was released after the Matrix changed the points and reverted back, making all Gen IIs equal. Dodge did not want GM to know anything about this car and engine. Time and perception has changed fact and reality , but don't really want to repeat this full story all over again.

[Ripper]

Great info as always Bill !!

I saw some of your posts in the "other" thread trying to explain it.. picked up some good info there.

[Matt M, Pa]

Thanks for setting the record straight...again...Bill. I too was "there when it happened" and remember it all very well. I get so sick of hearing the "creampuff" nonsense...

I"m willing to bet that an engine assembled to be installed in a 2000MY year Viper has the cast pistons. The model year starts in the previous year, so it's not uncommon to have a 2000 car with an engine built in '99. (Or a 2002 with an engine made in 2001, etc)

I don;t recall how much of the VIN is stamped on the Viper engines...but that could also be an indicator as to what MY car the engine was destined for.

[Boosted Motorsports]

Pretty sure this did not happen, because if you went to the Plant in 99 for a 2000 ( which I did ) the Employees all wanted to tell you about the new motor in all 2000s. They were not shy about telling you the advantages and the increase in horsepower , though not shown on paper. Only a month or two later there was a complete cease and desist order at the Plant and the motor was no longer discussed since there was a strong battle raging in SCCA with Corvette and they did not want the information out there. Viper Days had over $50,000 held back by Dodge as the Class Matrix placed points on the 2000 models over earlier models. Money was released after the Matrix changed the points and reverted back, making all Gen IIs equal. Dodge did not want GM to know anything about this car and engine. Time and perception has changed fact and reality , but don't really want to repeat this full story all over again.

Bill do you have a link to more info on this? So how much hp increase or overall hp were the employees at the plant saying the 2000 motors made? If my ACR on paper said 460 what did it really make leaving CAP?

[71firebird400]

Funny. Guess all those dynos showing the 96-99 cars make more power than the 00-02 are in on the conspiracy!!

[Bill Pemberton]

Dear Mr. Firebird,

Please provide your so called proof they made more HP. Please go buy a Viper, come to one of the future VOA National get togethers and go ask some of the older or even retired Engineers if the car didn't have more HP. It was never a huge amount , but it was part of the reason Porsche and Corvette went to lighter hypereutectic pistons also. There is no link on this , as noted it was not supposed to even be announced since they did not want the competition to know. Estimates were 10-15hp , which may not sound like much , but when competing in SCCA that was a nice jump in their competitive races.

[71firebird400]

Bill, nothing I do or say is going to convince you otherwise but there is plenty of evidence that the 00-02 cars dyno slightly lower than the 96-99.

That's an interesting argument about hypereutectic pistons making more power than forged pistons. I'm sure it had nothing to do with less expansion, tighter bore clearances, decreased cold-start emissions and the EPA Transitional NLEV standards that took effect for MY 2000.

[Bill Pemberton]

Were you at the Plant 18 years ago, were you assisting with the Matrix for Viper Days, were you hanging out with Bobby Archer who was running World Challenge that year, were you aware that there were very few 1999s sold and the rumor was the PCM was changed( to help get rid of the cam shake) and it was the heaviest Viper ever built and the slowest ( again perception , but folks back then took it as truth ). Lighter mass, more hp, same reason other Manufacturers went that direction, but the reason I bring all this up is myth and innuendo become a basis of fact in many folks minds , yet they were not there , and it is easier to believe some things they read. I am getting cranky, sorry, in my old age , but I find it interesting so few really want to know the history as it occurred, not how they want it to appear.

Dyno's vary so much depending on brand , that we can all make an argument for one over another. Just know at Mid Ohio Bobby Archer was whipping it on and going faster in his new motored Viper than in previous ones , and many of the guys on the track back then saw it as an advancement and bought 2000s on up. All of them are solid machines , but everyone stops the discussion at 2002, what did we have till 2010?

[71firebird400]

It makes perfect sense that the folks discussing the Viper circa 1999/2000 would advertise the new motor as an improvement. Admitting it was down on power due to tighter emissions regulations (necessitating the revised camshaft and hypereutectic pistons) would be an embarrassment even if there was nothing that could be done within the development costs to offset it.

[Bill Pemberton]

Oh for God's sake ---------shows how something spun years ago becomes truth to those later. Funny how trying to tell folks what happened years ago , when all us old farts are getting older and older , can be turned around to something else. Wasn't real hard to meet emissions back then , and from 1999 on they even met California's standards. I am trying to figure out what to tell the guy that bought my 2000 , that was faster than my 1998 through the quarter - must have been a faulty timer at the track?

By the way the revised cam and pistons were due primarily to the poseurs and whiners of the day , who didn't like the car shaking ( when many of us loved it). But they were the same group that whined and moaned about the Koni shocks rattling ( they did on BMWs too, but they did not complain), so we went to a completely different set of shocks that folks hated as they were impossible to get adjusted for the track --- whoops , I learned my lesson , better not tell you that whole story either.

Time for Grandpa to take a nap and not tell any stories of the early days of the Snake ,as appears everyone already knows the end of each chapter.

[mitchdob]

Dear Bill - thank you for your commitment and support to the Viper and this forum.

You are a cornerstone of this community. Your input, experience and insight into the heritage of the Viper is invaluable. THANK YOU!!

I for one am appreciative.

... and @ 71firebird400: I never bought a Viper from Bill, so no kissing up here.

[Boosted Motorsports]

Oh for God's sake ---------shows how something spun years ago becomes truth to those later. Funny how trying to tell folks what happened years ago , when all us old farts are getting older and older , can be turned around to something else. Wasn't real hard to meet emissions back then , and from 1999 on they even met California's standards. I am trying to figure out what to tell the guy that bought my 2000 , that was faster than my 1998 through the quarter - must have been a faulty timer at the track?

By the way the revised cam and pistons were due primarily to the poseurs and whiners of the day , who didn't like the car shaking ( when many of us loved it). But they were the same group that whined and moaned about the Koni shocks rattling ( they did on BMWs too, but they did not complain), so we went to a completely different set of shocks that folks hated as they were impossible to get adjusted for the track --- whoops , I learned my lesson , better not tell you that whole story either.

Time for Grandpa to take a nap and not tell any stories of the early days of the Snake ,as appears everyone already knows the end of each chapter.

Thank you for the info Bill and you should know that your info and intel from the higher ups are much appreciated. Many of us are thankful for this info and I'm sure everyone knows that you are not giving biased info here based on a personal preference but rather passing along info from being in the community and around people "in the know" during that time. I enjoy reading any behind the scenes info you have and there are not many others that deliver this so keep it coming!!!

[SnakeWatching]

So would my 1997 GTS have the forged pistons?

I cant seem to find the history link that explained the changes year to year.

I remember seeing an article that says some of the early cars could take boost without many issues (but I could be wrong).

[Fatboy 18]

So would my 1997 GTS have the forged pistons?

I cant seem to find the history link that explained the changes year to year.

I remember seeing an article that says some of the early cars could take boost without many issues (but I could be wrong).

Yes your car had Forged Pistons.

[My98RT10]

...Time for Grandpa to take a nap and not tell any stories of the early days of the Snake ,as appears everyone already knows the end of each chapter.

Oh no, please don't do this!

I think the majority of us here is loves to here the real stories from "tier 1" Viper guys like you and others!!! I see this happen in all areas of life that information presented in the Internet is taken for granted but often it shouldn't. It became so easy to "create facts" this way. Mostly you don't know the track record of the source of information to at least estimate the validity of the presented information. Therfore, I believe that "stories" from guys like you are so exceptionally valuable to the Viper community.

So, please don't stop, please!

[BLRDViper]

"By the way the revised cam and pistons were due primarily to the poseurs and whiners of the day , who didn't like the car shaking ( when many of us loved it)."

....and still do love it.
BLRD

[BrianACR]

I'm going to be putting that 708 cam into my 'creampuff' so it will shake more lol.
Bill, thanks for all the info you share with us!! It's so great to have somebody here that knows so much about our cars and is willing to share his vast knowledge with us!
No naps allowed!! lol

[Matt M, Pa]

As one that has been around Vipers for 20 years...I'm glad to see "Viper hissstory" welcomed here. I've been with one of our Vipers at a cruise, cars & coffee, etc...and heard other early Viper owners say some crazy things. I remember a local guy (who's really a nice guy) tell me how rare it was to have the polished 17" GTS wheels on his '93..."they were hard to get then." There's another guy with a sidepipe Viper (1992-1995) who is just positive that his came as the rare "ketchup and mustard" scheme with yellow wheels and decals....even though the decal has the Striker Viper on them...

I've been involved with the car hobby for a very long time and I avoid at all costs getting into discussions about these things...so I just say "nice car" and move on...

[Camfab]

25 posts later and no response from the original poster............. As an FYI, I'd love to have one of those early block 2000 engines as I think those would be the ultimate engine to build. Funny how no one knows or talks about this.

[river rat]

Just went and checked my 2000 gts and it has a build date of 11/99, hmmm

[Boosted Motorsports]

25 posts later and no response from the original poster............. As an FYI, I'd love to have one of those early block 2000 engines as I think those would be the ultimate engine to build. Funny how no one knows or talks about this.

Pretty sure this is what is in my car. Is it just because of the sleeves as Bill was mentioning or other reasons?

[Camfab]

Pretty sure this is what is in my car. Is it just because of the sleeves as Bill was mentioning or other reasons?

I don't believe Bill mentioned anything about the sleeves. If you re-read my earlier post, I outlined why I believe those early cars were so strong. I will say this, I've owned two 2000 ACR's both built after the block changeover. Both cars were built on the same day and were one hour a part on their build. I dyno'd both cars and both layed down exactly 424 RWHP on a Dynojet. it is true, that I have seen other 2000 plus cars coming in with numbers substantially lower than my results. My personal opinion is that the eutectic piston cars are a great starting point for a naturally aspirated build. The rods are longer and the lighter (due to a reduction in physical size) pistons lend themselves to a really responsive and powerful N/A package. If supercharging or turbocharging was your ultimate goal, then the earlier cars make for a better starting point. In the end though, if your going crazy, it really doesn't matter anyway, because a serious build will dump the stock pistons (forged or not) and step up to a properly designed per application piston.
In my case, I'm a super OCD perfectionist and I had to have a 2000 because of my color choice. Personally I feel the Vipers exhaust note sounds like the stereotype UPS truck. I knew the OEM cam and heads on all Gen II's was not going to meet my tastes. As far as why the engineers went with eutectic pistons and a slightly smaller cam on 2000 + cars.... I do believe it really was for emission purposes, specifically to meet the much tighter 2000 plus CA standards. Again, I do believe that those bleeddown lifters which actually make the cam seem smaller than it actually is, provide additional low end torque. Again this explains why these engines would perform better on a road course coming out of a corner.
Either way, this thread has been totally sidetracked, but hey it really doesn't matter because the guy who wrote it seems to have disappeared.
I'm happy Bill always jumps in to defend these cars, because the early myths started by a bunch of clowns back in the day seems to have been turned to fact, which is wrong.

[RTTTTed]

I don't believe Bill mentioned anything about the sleeves. If you re-read my earlier post, I outlined why I believe those early cars were so strong. I will say this, I've owned two 2000 ACR's both built after the block changeover. Both cars were built on the same day and were one hour a part on their build. I dyno'd both cars and both layed down exactly 424 RWHP on a Dynojet. it is true, that I have seen other 2000 plus cars coming in with numbers substantially lower than my results. My personal opinion is that the eutectic piston cars are a great starting point for a naturally aspirated build. The rods are longer and the lighter (due to a reduction in physical size) pistons lend themselves to a really responsive and powerful N/A package. If supercharging or turbocharging was your ultimate goal, then the earlier cars make for a better starting point. In the end though, if your going crazy, it really doesn't matter anyway, because a serious build will dump the stock pistons (forged or not) and step up to a properly designed per application piston.
In my case, I'm a super OCD perfectionist and I had to have a 2000 because of my color choice. Personally I feel the Vipers exhaust note sounds like the stereotype UPS truck. I knew the OEM cam and heads on all Gen II's was not going to meet my tastes. As far as why the engineers went with eutectic pistons and a slightly smaller cam on 2000 + cars.... I do believe it really was for emission purposes, specifically to meet the much tighter 2000 plus CA standards. Again, I do believe that those bleeddown lifters which actually make the cam seem smaller than it actually is, provide additional low end torque. Again this explains why these engines would perform better on a road course coming out of a corner.
Either way, this thread has been totally sidetracked, but hey it really doesn't matter because the guy who wrote it seems to have disappeared.
I'm happy Bill always jumps in to defend these cars, because the early myths started by a bunch of clowns back in the day seems to have been turned to fact, which is wrong.

Just to add my $.02 the creampuffs came with a larger oil pan for better oiling and the rear of the creampuff oil pan has 3 ribs compared to the early 2 rib pan. I read "Longer rods and lighter pistons". Having build a "Short stack" 440 back in the day I can attest to the hp advantages of longer rods, increasing piston dwell and their hp. It was "Smokey" that started the long rod short piston craze that increased hp and modern engines look to have been improved in this way. Thanks for the info CamFab and Mr. Pemberton.

[GTS Dean]

Again, I do believe that those bleeddown lifters which actually make the cam seem smaller than it actually is, provide additional low end torque. Again this explains why these engines would perform better on a road course coming out of a corner.

If you're coming thru a corner apex and not already turning 3.5k+ rpm (near the engine's torque peak), you are going to get smoked by me in my mostly stock lumpy cam forged motor car with handling out the wazoo. :lol2:

[Bill Pemberton]

Thanks and to me the extremely funny irony is how one seems to always associate the situation just to 2000 , and not like there were much to change in 2001 or 2002 except for ABS. We continue into the next generation with a bit bigger block but plenty of similarities and yet Woodhouse Motorsports Division pops out over 300 Paxton Supercharged modded Snakes with nary an issue. Nuff said, but there are so many examples in automotive culture where perception caused many to believe it was reality -- nature of the beast with folks passionate about their automobiles, but one still needs to work to dispel myths when possible?

[Desert Venom Racer]

Thanks for being there to set the record straight Bill. I had never heard the full story.

[Bill Pemberton]

No problem Desert Tracksnake, I am sure over the coming years plenty of us old timers will contribute more and more to clarify things that happened during the Viper's tenure on this blue Planet. Some of the rumors/perceptions have actually helped the Viper sell better or built a mystique, so it is often hard to rearrange the myths. But, the history and sidebars that can be contributed by folks who have been active in the Viper community for years are all part of the fun and passion of this wondrous car. I know you can tell some great stories of racing your Vipers and I think there will be a point in the future where a section devoted to exploits from the past will be viewed with pride for those owning the marquee?

Stories from Jon B, Maurice, and Ralph are always noted, wanted and well received, but I encourage many to jump in with their tales and remembrances to keep the mystery alive. We can debate back and forth about many things , but it is awfully hard not to open our eyes to what a remarkable machine we all own , when we park it at a car show and the throngs of folks asking questions , taking pictures, smiling and laughing , overshadows so many exotics one might suppose would have a bigger draw.

[river rat]

Didn't all the Gen3 and Gen4 vipers have hypereutectic pistons? Whats the big deal?

[Bill Pemberton]

Yes , River Rat, my point exactly .......................

[GTS Dean]

The new cast pistons are better in almost every way relative to forged, except in their ability to handle higher cylinder pressures from boosted applications. The biggest reason Dodge initially went to them is their lower thermal expansion when cold, which allows tighter wall clearances, reducing blowby and startup emissions.

[ViperRyan]

Bottom line is that you can't tell. Just because a car was built in '99 doesn't mean it has '99 spec pieces. The engines were redesigned for MY 2000. One note that most people don't know about the 2000 model year is that there was an engine block update which occurred somewhere if my memory serves me correctly in Nov of '99. The early blocks (2000 MY prior to Nov) had a special sleeve material that was absolutely bullet proof if I recall. The problem was most individuals couldn't/didn't break them in properly. These motors when broken in right were ringers for sure. Apparently so many people had issues burning oil that Dodge reverted back to the old sleeves. The 2000 engine incorporated a longer rod, much shorter lighter piston which certainly was a tighter engine, when coupled with those sleeves it made great power. That's, my friends why the 2000 MY kicked butt.
So the real question is........... do you have one of those original blocks? Was your car one of the ones sent back to Arrow Racing to be converted to the old sleeves? Remember that '99 and earlier forged pistons were larger, heavier, and would require the earlier shorter rods as well as a complete engine rebalance. You have to realize that your talking about a seventeen year old car, and I'm guessing your not the original owner. 2000 model year Vipers also have a ten QT oil pan. Hope this helps......

Yes LATAMUD is correct, if you knew what your looking at, one could tell by dropping the pan.

Great, now I want to know exactly what's in my 2000 GTS :p


Pretty sure this did not happen, because if you went to the Plant in 99 for a 2000 ( which I did ) the Employees all wanted to tell you about the new motor in all 2000s. They were not shy about telling you the advantages and the increase in horsepower , though not shown on paper. Only a month or two later there was a complete cease and desist order at the Plant and the motor was no longer discussed since there was a strong battle raging in SCCA with Corvette and they did not want the information out there. Viper Days had over $50,000 held back by Dodge as the Class Matrix placed points on the 2000 models over earlier models. Money was released after the Matrix changed the points and reverted back, making all Gen IIs equal. Dodge did not want GM to know anything about this car and engine. Time and perception has changed fact and reality , but don't really want to repeat this full story all over again.


The new cast pistons are better in almost every way relative to forged, except in their ability to handle higher cylinder pressures from boosted applications. The biggest reason Dodge initially went to them is their lower thermal expansion when cold, which allows tighter wall clearances, reducing blowby and startup emissions.

Bill, you ordered my car new. What's in it :United_States: