The Future Value Analysis for Viper

[Scott_in_fl]

This is a hot topic and surely has been discussed before, but several points have been missed. Now that I have an ACRE on order, I'll share my view as someone with a various relevant backgrounds (namely financial markets, and vintage auto markets).

I'll add to those previous discussions that we can look forward 20 years from now and imagine the last of the great analog cars crossing the auction block (we can look forward because we can look -- that is, we can look at what is happening at Mecum/Barrett-Jackson auctions right now).

I consider analog cars to mean those with naturally aspirated motors, manual transmissions, and little to no electronic aids. Think of cars that rumble and shake when you start them, that smell a bit like unburnt fuel when you stand behind them, that feel raw when you sit inside them, etc. There is no drive-by-wire, fly-by-wire, or any of that other crap. Analog cars are the pure driver's cars, offering the most direct sensation of working a car down the road, or around a track.

The era of analog cars is mostly behind us. The highest performing such cars are the original FordGT, the air cooled and some early generations of water-cooled Porsches (especially CGT, which probably marked the end of an era), and some older manual Ferrari's (prior to 2010 or so), and that might be about it. After that, cars became too refined, too computer-controlled, too electric, and too fake (think 918, P1, LaF, any McLaren).

Some manufacturer's realize the problem and try to mimic some analog qualities into their newer designs. For instance, many now pipe in fake engine sound into the cabin to emulate some of the analog experience. They all have steering settings with a "track mode" to emulate a more direct feel for the road. There are electronic suspension settings, brake setting, throttle/economy settings, etc. Porsche is even trying to go backwards to some degree, by removing some of the newer technology from cars like their 911R and then charging more because they gave you less (just one example of why Porsche is unquestionably the best car MFG at marketing and building the brand).

So where is the Viper in all of this? I think it sits right at the top of the heap. It is literally more than 10-15 seconds per lap faster than any of those other great analog cars. The only real question is whether the Gen V will be considered a genuine analog car, or whether it too has become too computer controlled. I don't have one yet, so I can't be sure. But, the reason why I purchased the ACRE is because everything that I read seems to indicate that it still has that analog feel that I remember from my Gen III coupe (big, rumbling V10, manual trans, burns fuel at a ridiculous rate, sounds obnoxious, etc.). I understand that it has even better steering feel than my Gen III, probably the most beloved aspect of my prior car and critically important to this "analog vs. digital" concept.

When we buy nostalgia, we buy experiences and memories. In 20 years, when the then-current supercars are basically driving themselves, there is going to be little doubt that many, many, many people are going to miss what it feels like to drive the genuine items. If they can take out a Gen 5 Viper ACR on a Sunday morning just to rekindle that feeling, and just to remember what it must have been like to own such a beast, then life will be good.

To loosely quote Kuniskis, this is the really, really last call of an era (and again, it may have already passed to a large degree, we just don't realize it yet -- again, 918, P1, LaF, etc.). Anything that comes from Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, Audi, McLaren, etc. will still be great but they will be ever more digital. Their cars will be fast (eventually much faster than today), but they can never go back to building what is essentially a large go-cart or a Nascar racer. Those days are done, and have been with all of those makes for some time now (Porsche cannot build a CGT again - Dodge cannot build another Viper on what is currently a modified 25 year-old platform -- seriously, go look at some "how it's made" articles and videos from 1992 and you'll be astonished at how similar the car looks to a Gen V before the body gets attached; it's almost scary from a safety standpoint).

Thus, your Viper will be collectible regardless of which gen you have. Values will go up considerably. The latest, highest performing ones will do best because they are going out on top. Special editions, story cars, etc. will do somewhat better than others within their generation, but probably not enough to worry about. In order to get substantially more money on a special edition you'd have to not drive it. A low mileage 1 of 1 in a good color with the right options, and kept nicely will do just fine. Go try to find vintage P-cars in rare or highly desirable factory colors (black in particular) and you'll see what I mean.

Values will not explode until everyone realizes that all of their options are digital ones and they start hunting for the analog cars. That is happening slowly right now (again, look at P-car values) but it will accelerate in the next 5-10 years as the masses realize it and analog cars are further back in the rearview mirror. There will only ever be hundreds, not thousands, of Gen V ACR's. $500k is not unreasonable within 10 years. Beyond that, you could literally be sitting on an absolute treasure regardless of special edition, 1 of 1, or otherwise. Hold onto your cars and enjoy the ride.

[timberwolf]

This is a hot topic and surely has been discussed before, but several points have been missed. Now that I have an ACRE on order, I'll share my view as someone with a various relevant backgrounds (namely financial markets, and vintage auto markets).

I'll add to those previous discussions that we can look forward 20 years from now and imagine the last of the great analog cars crossing the auction block (we can look forward because we can look -- that is, we can look at what is happening at Mecum/Barrett-Jackson auctions right now).

I consider analog cars to mean those with naturally aspirated motors, manual transmissions, and little to no electronic aids. Think of cars that rumble and shake when you start them, that smell a bit like unburnt fuel when you stand behind them, that feel raw when you sit inside them, etc. There is no drive-by-wire, fly-by-wire, or any of that other crap. Analog cars are the pure driver's cars, offering the most direct sensation of working a car down the road, or around a track.

The era of analog cars is mostly behind us. The highest performing such cars are the original FordGT, the air cooled and some early generations of water-cooled Porsches (especially CGT, which probably marked the end of an era), and some older manual Ferrari's (prior to 2010 or so), and that might be about it. After that, cars became too refined, too computer-controlled, too electric, and too fake (think 918, P1, LaF, any McLaren).

Some manufacturer's realize the problem and try to mimic some analog qualities into their newer designs. For instance, many now pipe in fake engine sound into the cabin to emulate some of the analog experience. They all have steering settings with a "track mode" to emulate a more direct feel for the road. There are electronic suspension settings, brake setting, throttle/economy settings, etc. Porsche is even trying to go backwards to some degree, by removing some of the newer technology from cars like their 911R and then charging more because they gave you less (just one example of why Porsche is unquestionably the best car MFG at marketing and building the brand).

So where is the Viper in all of this? I think it sits right at the top of the heap. It is literally more than 10-15 seconds per lap faster than any of those other great analog cars. The only real question is whether the Gen V will be considered a genuine analog car, or whether it too has become too computer controlled. I don't have one yet, so I can't be sure. But, the reason why I purchased the ACRE is because everything that I read seems to indicate that it still has that analog feel that I remember from my Gen III coupe (big, rumbling V10, manual trans, burns fuel at a ridiculous rate, sounds obnoxious, etc.). I understand that it has even better steering feel than my Gen III, probably the most beloved aspect of my prior car and critically important to this "analog vs. digital" concept.

When we buy nostalgia, we buy experiences and memories. In 20 years, when the then-current supercars are basically driving themselves, there is going to be little doubt that many, many, many people are going to miss what it feels like to drive the genuine items. If they can take out a Gen 5 Viper ACR on a Sunday morning just to rekindle that feeling, and just to remember what it must have been like to own such a beast, then life will be good.

To loosely quote Kuniskis, this is the really, really last call of an era (and again, it may have already passed to a large degree, we just don't realize it yet -- again, 918, P1, LaF, etc.). Anything that comes from Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, Audi, McLaren, etc. will still be great but they will be ever more digital. Their cars will be fast (eventually much faster than today), but they can never go back to building what is essentially a large go-cart or a Nascar racer. Those days are done, and have been with all of those makes for some time now (Porsche cannot build a CGT again - Dodge cannot build another Viper on what is currently a modified 25 year-old platform -- seriously, go look at some "how it's made" articles and videos from 1992 and you'll be astonished at how similar the car looks to a Gen V before the body gets attached; it's almost scary from a safety standpoint).

Thus, your Viper will be collectible regardless of which gen you have. Values will go up considerably. The latest, highest performing ones will do best because they are going out on top. Special editions, story cars, etc. will do somewhat better than others within their generation, but probably not enough to worry about. In order to get substantially more money on a special edition you'd have to not drive it. A low mileage 1 of 1 in a good color with the right options, and kept nicely will do just fine. Go try to find vintage P-cars in rare or highly desirable factory colors (black in particular) and you'll see what I mean.

Values will not explode until everyone realizes that all of their options are digital ones and they start hunting for the analog cars. That is happening slowly right now (again, look at P-car values) but it will accelerate in the next 5-10 years as the masses realize it and analog cars are further back in the rearview mirror. There will only ever be hundreds, not thousands, of Gen V ACR's. $500k is not unreasonable within 10 years. Beyond that, you could literally be sitting on an absolute treasure regardless of special edition, 1 of 1, or otherwise. Hold onto your cars and enjoy the ride.


Great points. My only worry is that the government commences a ban on combustion engines and human driven vehicles, and our cars become coffee tables. Still an exciting car to just look at!!

[BJG32]

Great points. My only worry is that the government commences a ban on combustion engines and human driven vehicles, and our cars become coffee tables. Still an exciting car to just look at!!

That's why we must keep electing republicans.

On a serious note. I can see them banning manufacturing, but not banning cars that are already made. Kind of like R22 in the refrigeration industry.

I agree with OP's thoughts though. We are at the end of the muscle car era.

[Snorman]

We've been at the end of the muscle car era for 20 years and every year faster and more powerful cars are built.
S.

[ViperJon]

$500k is not unreasonable within 10 years. Beyond that, you could literally be sitting on an absolute treasure regardless of special edition, 1 of 1, or otherwise. Hold onto your cars and enjoy the ride.

I'll have what he's drinking bartender.

[swexlin]

I'll have what he's drinking bartender.

Jon, I was about to post the same thing. Wow. $500K....

[ViperSmith]

$5m each in 3 years. Heard it hear first - look at the FGT!

[Scott_in_fl]

The analog cars, as I've described them, were phasing out during the last 10 years. From 2008-2012, most of the brands phased out their analog cars. Oddly, Viper continued to build an analog car until it was so long in the tooth that it literally could not comply any longer with DOT regs. In fact, consumers stopped buying Viper because it was too analog when everyone else was introducing new tech digital. This low demand lead to the demise of Viper and is why the current iteration of Viper can never return.

Now, during the analog phase out (i.e. the last 10 years), notable analog cars have been slowly increasing in value as collectors see the writing on the wall.

Look at CGT and its valuation run over the last 3 years. Porsche made 1,300 cars. Or FGT, and its recent valuation run over the same period. Ford made 4,000 cars. We can look at any low production analog car, that was the company's last and greatest performing (at the time), and you see the same thing.

If you take the valuation curve on any analog car as I've defined them (GT3RS 4.0, GT2RS Mk1, FGT, basically any high performance last-of-its-kind car before the manufacturer changed over to a digital platform), you'll see that the curve starts out shallow, with appreciation coming at a slow rate until 6-7 years out.

After that, appreciation moves at a more rapid rate for several reasons. Of course, supply diminishes (no more production, cars get wrecked, collectors purchase for storage). But price appreciation also begets more price appreciation as buyers become more desperate to purchase and holders become less willing to sell (consumers all act the opposite of how they should when prices are appreciating (or depreciating) rapidly -- look at equity prices, commodities, housing markets, etc. - they all function the same way).

Sure, there will always be weak hands that will sell as price goes up, but that problem becomes less of an issue when total production is small.

And that is the ticket for the Gen 5 ACR. It is the total production, regardless of edition. There will be approximately 800 cars, ever. Take a guess at how many low mileage good examples you will see for sale in 10 years at any given time. How many will you find for sale in 20 years, at any given time?

We are talking seriously low factory production, for a car that is undisputed as the fastest (by far), most track competent analog car ever produced. Has any analog, street legal car ever been faster??? Take a CGT, FGT or GT2RS Mk1 around Laguna Seca and see how you do.

Another factor is that Pcar and Fcar types are recognizing the Gen V ACR and respect it. That is something new for Viper. They have accepted it, literally into their homes and garages, and it sits right next to P1's, LaF's, and 918's.

Keep in mind also that there is little to no international distribution for this car. Over the next 10-20 years (and beginning much sooner than that), you should see international buyers reaching in to import this unusual and very limited automobile to their home country.

There are so many factors at play here that were never relevant before and they all point to drastically improved valuations for this last of the analog cars.

It is proven that most people cannot see a good investment when it presents itself. I'm just pointing out some facts that have not been appreciated in the previous discussions on this topic.

[Angleiron]

I find it humorous that you think that this will just pertain to the GenV ACR...:dropdev:

[MoparJohn]

I love it
#science


the analog cars, as i've described them, were phasing out during the last 10 years. From 2008-2012, most of the brands phased out their analog cars. Oddly, viper continued to build an analog car until it was so long in the tooth that it literally could not comply any longer with dot regs. In fact, consumers stopped buying viper because it was too analog when everyone else was introducing new tech digital. This low demand lead to the demise of viper and is why the current iteration of viper can never return.

Now, during the analog phase out (i.e. The last 10 years), notable analog cars have been slowly increasing in value as collectors see the writing on the wall.

Look at cgt and its valuation run over the last 3 years. Porsche made 1,300 cars. Or fgt, and its recent valuation run over the same period. Ford made 4,000 cars. We can look at any low production analog car, that was the company's last and greatest performing (at the time), and you see the same thing.

If you take the valuation curve on any analog car as i've defined them (gt3rs 4.0, gt2rs mk1, fgt, basically any high performance last-of-its-kind car before the manufacturer changed over to a digital platform), you'll see that the curve starts out shallow, with appreciation coming at a slow rate until 6-7 years out.

After that, appreciation moves at a more rapid rate for several reasons. Of course, supply diminishes (no more production, cars get wrecked, collectors purchase for storage). But price appreciation also begets more price appreciation as buyers become more desperate to purchase and holders become less willing to sell (consumer all act the opposite of how they should when prices are appreciating (or depreciating) rapidly -- look at equity prices, commodities, housing markets, etc. - they all function the same way).

Sure, there will always be weak hands that will sell as price goes up, but that problem becomes less of an issue when total production is small.

And that is the ticket for the gen 5 acr. It is the total production, regardless of edition. There will be approximately 800 cars, ever. Take a guess at how many low mileage good examples you will see for sale in 10 years at any given time. How many will you find for sale in 20 years, at any given time?

We are talking seriously low factory production, for a car that is undisputed as the fastest (by far), most track competent analog car ever produced. Has any analog, street legal car ever been faster??? Take a cgt, fgt or gt2rs mk1 around laguna seca and see how you do.

Another factor is that pcar and fcar types are recognizing the gen v acr and respect it. That is something new for viper. They have accepted it, literally into their homes and garages, and it sits right next to p1's, laf's, and 918's.

Keep in mind also that there is little to no international distribution for this car. Over the next 10-20 years (and beginning much sooner than that), you should see international buyers reaching in to import this unusual and very limited automobile to their home country.

There are so many factors at play here that were never relevant before and they all point to drastically improved valuations for this last of the analog cars.

It is proven that most people cannot see a good investment when it presents itself. I'm just pointing out some facts that have not been appreciated in the previous discussions on this topic.

[Scott_in_fl]

AngleIron,

If you read it all (and it is a lot), I said that valuations for all Vipers will increase. But, I also discussed Gen V ACR as being the top of the heap for several reasons. Look at P-cars. Air-cooled, manual cars, with low mileage are great across the board. Every gen is doing well. However, the latest, most extreme of those examples are doing the best (think GT2RS, which even though a turbo car, is still considered by collectors to be in this analog category -- as are most of the older turbo Pcars since Porsche was so heavily vested in turbo implements).

And btw, your color combination is terrific! 1 of 1's like yours (green w/ black stripes) are what I was referring to when I stated that there may not be that much of a difference in values between special editions and well done 1 of 1's. I have to think that your build is likely going to fare very well going forward, especially if one of a kind.

[Stealth78]

We've been at the end of the muscle car era for 20 years and every year faster and more powerful cars are built.
S.

Agreed... but it is more like 40 years. Everyone thought horsepower wars were over in the early to mid 70's.... look at us now.

[The_Ruski_Driver]

I feel like values will creep but 500k in 5 years? More like 200k

[Angleiron]

The ACR is the fastest around the track at the moment, and it is a shame that it will be going away. There is a vette with aero on it's way that may make things interesting. For all of you vert haters I thought I would share something that I kinda thought was true...so that should make my vert worth at least $750K someday! :-)

http://www.musclecarclub.com/the-rarest-muscle-cars/

[Voice of Reason]

I'm willing to let my TA go to any of the financial savvy investors in here for a mere $200k. It's not very often you can guarantee a 2.5x return over 5 years so I'm sure the car won't last long at this bottom basement price!

[sadil]

Loll, gasoline engines are not going anywhere for the next 20-30 years. We are bringing turbo charging to all cars first, then will be the rise of hybrids/electric cars, and then maybe hydrogen fuel cell if we can figure it out. Self driving cars will be a long way out too and will depend a lot on infrastructure. The US can't even repair old bridges or build a high speed rail loll. Country-wide autonomous push will take an effort. Not to mention oil and gas lobbyists lol. Good luck. Point is we all will be keeping our Vipers on the road for a long time.

[Scott_in_fl]

I'm willing to let my TA go to any of the financial savvy investors in here for a mere $200k. It's not very often you can guarantee a 2.5x return over 5 years so I'm sure the car won't last long at this bottom basement price!

First of all, we were talking about 10 years and longer.

Second, I may be interested in taking an option on it. If you really think you'll hold onto it for 10 years, and if we could come up with some reasonable terms re: mileage and condition, you might have a future buyer here. PM me if interested.

[viper_eddie]

Loll, gasoline engines are not going anywhere for the next 20-30 years. We are bringing turbo charging to all cars first, then will be the rise of hybrids/electric cars, and then maybe hydrogen fuel cell if we can figure it out. Self driving cars will be a long way out too and will depend a lot on infrastructure. The US can't even repair old bridges or build a high speed rail loll. Country-wide autonomous push will take an effort. Not to mention oil and gas lobbyists lol. Good luck. Point is we all will be keeping our Vipers on the road for a long time.

I realized recently I really don't like turbocharged engines. Honestly they sound like shit compared to N/A. I think supercharged engines sound decent because of the whine (guess mostly Roots/twin screw?) but N/A still takes the cake. There's literally not 1 new car with a turbocharger that I can say I like the engine note of. Not to mention that the turbo comes in handy mostly when driving the EPA cycle, in real world driving if you drive it hard it uses just as much fuel as a larger engine.

I honestly do think in 20-30 years it will be mostly electric and/or self driving cars. 20-30 years is a lot of progress for electronics, just think of personal computers and how far they've come along. The hold up now isn't car technology, it's the electronic and battery related items. Couple that with the fact that younger generations don't really care about driving and more about gadgets and yeah...to me the future isn't that bright as a car enthusiast.

[BJG32]

First of all, we were talking about 10 years and longer.

Second, I may be interested in taking an option on it. If you really think you'll hold onto it for 10 years, and if we could come up with some reasonable terms re: mileage and condition, you might have a future buyer here. PM me if interested.

It's really a shame we can't discuss/debate something without getting sarcastically shit on by every expert in the forum. I appreciate your thoughts and write up. Thanks for taking the time to do it.

[swexlin]

It's really a shame we can't discuss/debate something without getting sarcastically shit on by every expert in the forum. I appreciate your thoughts and write up. Thanks for taking the time to do it.

Ben, I agree, I actually like Scott's writeup, and he makes some good points. I think the $500K comment is what had a few of chuckling. That being said - I hope he's right!

[Scott_in_fl]

We've been at the end of the muscle car era for 20 years and every year faster and more powerful cars are built.
S.

S, as shown in the article linked by AngleIron, the muscle car era was 1964-1974 and ended 40 years ago.

I'm talking about the end of an era where driver skill was necessary to drive fast.

We both had GTR's, which is a perfect example. That car was widely known as a car that anyone could go fast in because there were so many digital controls working the transmission, brakes, steering, power delivery, etc. You point it, you press the go pedal, and you go fast.

Although other makes were implementing pieces of the GTR technology, Nissan was the first to bring it to just about every aspect of driving.

Others have since followed, with computer control for such a large aspect of the driving experience, that anyone can drive them quickly. McLaren is known for this type of technology and even their early MP4-12C was very similar to the GTR in its tech. Their more recent cars only have more of it. The other guys all have it now too (and I remember Ferrari 458 feeling very GTR-like).

The computers are how anyone can jump into a 991 GT3RS and go quickly around a track. The car is doing nearly all of the skill work. Sure, skill can still buy a couple of seconds over someone without the skill, but it is amazing how quickly the new cars can get around with a fairly neophyte driver behind the wheel.

That's all fine and good, but what is going up in value (at least today), are cars that take us back to when driving was pure, unadulterated fun. We like the challenge that it takes to rip off the perfect heel-toe downshift, the drift through the turn, and how we feather the throttle just perfectly on the exit. It's a highly rewarding thing when you get it just right -- as you know.

For the most part, you can't do those things in cars built today. That is the era that I'm referring to. It's gone. Performante this, 750S that, ZR1, 488, you name it -- those cars are new-age, digital cars. They will be fast, they will be fun. But, for me (and you), and many others like us, it will be far more fun to do it the old fashion way. And, again, there must be a bunch of us out there given the movement in pricing on analog cars.

So, 10 years out, which car do you want to rekindle that experience in? Some will pick Ford, others will pick older Ferrari or Porsche 993. I'll pick Gen V ACR (and my hunch is that many others, by then, would like to be able to pick that one too).

[BJG32]

Ben, I agree, I actually like Scott's writeup, and he makes some good points. I think the $500K comment is what had a few of chuckling. That being said - I hope he's right!

If big hp NA engines go away, then he might not be too far off.

[mnc2886]

Scott,

I enjoyed reading your post. I'll say this. Vipers tend to drop 30-40% and just stay there. Gen I's fell a little further than than. The latest trend from my perspective is that Vipers continued to fall in value for about 4-5 years and then level out. I personally believe that the Gen V will simply just hold steady for a few years and while all might go up some in value, the only ones that will jump way up will be the limited edition vehicles. I don't see the 1 of 1's doing that or any other Viper that isn't a numbered car.

[dethred]

The values on Vipers will go up, and will only go up... after I've sold my car.

[ViperJon]

If big hp NA engines go away, then he might not be too far off.

Every year same story, big HP motors are done for. They're going away....this is it....... better grab one now. And then here comes a Hellcat or Demon to prove them wrong. High performance is never going away, it may just be in a different form. And there will be a bazillion leftover manual Vettes, Mustangs and Vipers to fill the void now and ten years from now.

[Scott_in_fl]

Every year same story, big HP motors are done for. They're going away....this is it....... better grab one now. And then here comes a Hellcat or Demon to prove them wrong. High performance is never going away, it may just be in a different form. And there will be a bazillion leftover manual Vettes, Mustangs and Vipers to fill the void now and ten years from now.

Jon, you're missing the point. It's not about big HP motors. Vintage Pcars (and the slew of others that I identified) are not skyrocketing in value because of their HP. I also stated that future cars will be faster and have higher performance.

[ViperSmith]

Jon, you're missing the point. It's not about big HP motors. Vintage Pcars (and the slew of others that I identified) are not skyrocketing in value because of their HP. I also stated that future cars will be faster and have higher performance.
Trying to predict that collector market is hilarious

[BJG32]

Every year same story, big HP motors are done for. They're going away....this is it....... better grab one now. And then here comes a Hellcat or Demon to prove them wrong. High performance is never going away, it may just be in a different form. And there will be a bazillion leftover manual Vettes, Mustangs and Vipers to fill the void now and ten years from now.

Ford GT has a turbo V6 completely out of place on that car. NSX and 918 are hybrids. Ferrari just announced their last NA car.

The signs truly are pointing to the end.

Corvette, Hellcat and demon are not NA btw.

[Propsail]

The values on Vipers will go up, and will only go up... after I've sold my car.

Best post ever

[ViperSmith]

Ford GT has a turbo V6 completely out of place on that car. NSX and 918 are hybrids. Ferrari just announced their last NA car.

The signs truly are pointing to the end.

Corvette, Hellcat and demon are not NA btw.

The bet is that people who are in their 30's now who obsessed over the Viper when it came out will be willing to pay big bucks in 30 years when they are going through a late life crisis.

At that time who knows if we'll even be able to drive these vehicles by then

There are so many options out there now for high performance cars that it is hard to imagine younger generations will 1) care about performance cars 2) give a shit about manuals

[Scott_in_fl]

Trying to predict that collector market is hilarious

I've given you some ideas to ponder about why this car should increase in value over the next 10-20 years. Why don't you contribute something meaningful to the conversation by giving us the opposing view (if you are so inclined)? And, then, let's discuss those points.

[Rare Snake]

These posts are always fun to read.

I really think if any of them get a big price jump for collectability, it will be the Gen 1 cars. They deserve it, they are the ones that started it all, and it pains me to see how pathetically cheap these cars are selling for, my own included. I just hope they don't come up too much... because that loss will hurt even more lol.

The one thing I know for sure is that my car is not going to be worth anything if they really do take off, which I find unlikely. I didn't buy it as a collector, or because it was going to help me retire some day. I bought it because there was no other car on the market that I would rather spend my money on, and because my heart does a flip every time I get to see it or drive it. It's a 1 of 1 before that was even a thing, but that won't mean much either. It will have mileage that will make buyers cringe and it will be covered top to bottom in rock chips and road rash that each have a story and can only be earned by enjoying some real world seat time.

But if you're right OP, that would be very cool to see.

Dason

[ViperSmith]

I've given you some ideas to ponder about why this car should increase in value over the next 10-20 years. Why don't you contribute something meaningful to the conversation by giving us the opposing view (if you are so inclined)? And, then, let's discuss those points.
I have. Enjoy it now because who cares what the future holds. My time preference was today for enjoyment not that it may double in value in 20 years.

Trying to game the collector market is an exercise in futility.

[Bruce H.]

I predict a large over-supply of low mileage Vipers that buyers thought would become highly collectible if they basically didn't drive them. What the value will be I don't know, but I'm sure demand for these will depend on the desirability of future high performance cars, and whether there's enough buyers who care enough about the more analogue models enough to shell out large sums for an older Dodge. Affluent boomers have fueled the market for the older muscle cars they grew up with but I don't see that with their children's generation much at all.

If FCA taps their global resources they might produce a thoroughly modern Gen VI before long, go set a bunch of new records, or beat existing Viper records, and that would surely affect the used Gen V market. I'm a boomer and a track rat that has bought performance cars going back decades but the ones in my future will likely use more technology to improve the overall ownership and driving experience. My son loves cars too and I can't see him coveting the old stuff, analogue or not.

Younger generations are generally far more concerned with environmental issues than we ever were and I can see "green" performance cars being the most appealing to these future high-end buyers. The romantic appeal of the analogue driver's car may be mostly disappearing along with the manual transmission. That's a sad reality, but at least for now we have a place to gather with like-minded enthusiasts!

Bruce

[aspman]

I fear the generation of snowflakes coming along now will be too scared of the viper and wont have popped their mama's titty out of their mouths to drive one.

[ViperJon]

Well said and I agree Bruce. There will be a glut of Vipers available for a long time. And comparing the vast worldwide pool of Porsche enthusiasts to the razor thin pool of niche Viper enthusiasts is not even in the same conversation. Not nearly enough to outrun supply and that has to happen for a car to significantly appreciate.

[Coloviper]

I realized recently I really don't like turbocharged engines. Honestly they sound like shit compared to N/A. I think supercharged engines sound decent because of the whine (guess mostly Roots/twin screw?) but N/A still takes the cake. There's literally not 1 new car with a turbocharger that I can say I like the engine note of. Not to mention that the turbo comes in handy mostly when driving the EPA cycle, in real world driving if you drive it hard it uses just as much fuel as a larger engine.

I honestly do think in 20-30 years it will be mostly electric and/or self driving cars. 20-30 years is a lot of progress for electronics, just think of personal computers and how far they've come along. The hold up now isn't car technology, it's the electronic and battery related items. Couple that with the fact that younger generations don't really care about driving and more about gadgets and yeah...to me the future isn't that bright as a car enthusiast.

I thought the same thing and especially anything under 8-cylinders but I test drove a Alfa Romeo Guilia very recently and have been eyeing a new Stelvio to replace my 06' Cayenne Turbo S when that Stelvio comes out and all I can tell you was I was blown away with the V6-TT in that Alfa Romeo. It sounded frickin' amazing and at over 500HP, I could hear that all day long. Wow and just wow! Was not prepared for how that pulled me in.

[SnakeWatching]

I like charts when predicting future prices. Hagerty has this on a 1996 GTS:

23217

[ViperSRT]

Who cares. They will only be pried from my fingers after I am cold and gone. Value be damned.

[Policy Limits]

Honestly even if I could get 7 figs 1/4 century from now it would be hard to let this one go. Love the stance on this thing. The wing is massive. The aero, the vents, the curves. So much fun to drive. ..and just to look at. Hope I keep it. At only 41 years old time is on my side to realize a profit if it takes time and if I decide to flip it. I've had some cool toys. This one is way up there.

[Track Pack]

Nice post Scott

[Larryskillzs]

I have kids aka snowflakes that come up to me and tell me the Viper is their dream car.

Kids and their love affair with sport cars might not be as crazy as it used to be, but millions of kids still dream about having a Viper in their garage.

All of this talk really makes me want an ACR. It will be worth it.

[stradman]

The bet is that people who are in their 30's now who obsessed over the Viper when it came out will be willing to pay big bucks in 30 years when they are going through a late life crisis.

At that time who knows if we'll even be able to drive these vehicles by then

There are so many options out there now for high performance cars that it is hard to imagine younger generations will 1) care about performance cars 2) give a shit about manuals

Kind of agree with this. Lets face it, in the future if the younger generation-who remember won't have much experience of manual cars/heel and toeing etc- are given a choice of which car they should jump into- a flappy paddle easy to go round fast car or waste time learning how to drive a manual with all its idiosyncrasies- I kinda know which one it will be and it won't be the Viper I'm afraid. This argument harks back to the "when I was a lad we had real cars, no syncromesh, no fuel injection, no disk brakes- cars for proper men!". Now I personally don't like driving those type of cars myself so you can see where my argument is coming from....

[Policy Limits]

Definitely don't agree. Last V10 with a stick: matters. Last production car with side pipes, largest naturally aspirated engine in the world, largest tires of any production car in the world, broke 13 major track records in its time, all matters. Hand built low production super car: matters. Final numbered special edition: matters.

Just look at values of gated F430, 6.0 Diablo, Manual Ford GT, gated lp640, etc. The Viper is going out on top with the ACR extreme. It's the most barely street legal race car in the market that money can buy. It matters. Huge collectible component to these. I've been considering buying a second one.

[Scott_in_fl]

I predict a large over-supply of low mileage Vipers that buyers thought would become highly collectible if they basically didn't drive them. What the value will be I don't know, but I'm sure demand for these will depend on the desirability of future high performance cars, and whether there's enough buyers who care enough about the more analogue models enough to shell out large sums for an older Dodge. Affluent boomers have fueled the market for the older muscle cars they grew up with but I don't see that with their children's generation much at all.

If FCA taps their global resources they might produce a thoroughly modern Gen VI before long, go set a bunch of new records, or beat existing Viper records, and that would surely affect the used Gen V market. I'm a boomer and a track rat that has bought performance cars going back decades but the ones in my future will likely use more technology to improve the overall ownership and driving experience. My son loves cars too and I can't see him coveting the old stuff, analogue or not.

Younger generations are generally far more concerned with environmental issues than we ever were and I can see "green" performance cars being the most appealing to these future high-end buyers. The romantic appeal of the analogue driver's car may be mostly disappearing along with the manual transmission. That's a sad reality, but at least for now we have a place to gather with like-minded enthusiasts!

Bruce

Bruce, excellent points. A changing automotive buyer is definitely a large risk to future valuations. But, at least Porsche is keen on trying to develop their forthcoming GT cars to copy the analog feel of days gone by. Look at 911R, GT3.2, GT4RS -- all specifically designed in many aspects to recreate the man/machine direct connection that made their older generations so fantastic. After all, that direct connection is what made the storied brands so successful (which translated to winning pedigrees).

As for FCA tapping global resources to produce a Gen VI, it is certainly possible (and probably likely in some form or another). But, there is no way that any current or future Alfa permutation is going to feel like the Viper we know and love. DOT requirements are becoming more stringent, not less. Cars are getting heavier (even in light of pervasive use of space age materials) because there are more computers, more batteries, more airbags, more rollover protection, more fire retardant materials, larger crumple zones, etc.

The 918 weighs 300 lbs. more than a Gen 5 Viper; the Laf weighs 100 lbs. more; the P1 weighs about the same. Those cars were developed with >$100m budgets, and are almost entirely built of exotic materials. FCA is not going there to develop a Dodge product. It might do some wanna-be car that it slaps the Viper nameplate onto, but that would be whoring out the brand. It cannot develop a world-beating car under the Dodge umbrella anytime soon.

How the rolling go cart that is the underpinnings of a current Viper managed to get this far is astonishing. But, it will never get approved that way ever again (and that is much of what makes it feel the way that it does). Any new car, even if it could be developed, is likely to feel much more like a GTR than what we know as the Viper (and no way would a new car be able to embarrass the likes of Ferrari, Lambo, McLaren ever again -- they are all on their game, have experience developing the "digital" car by now, and are advancing their technology quickly. For FCA to allow Dodge to jump into that pool, it would be crazy).

[Policy Limits]

There is no Gen 6 coming. It's over.

[Racingswh]

I am asking a mere 300k for my ACR-E if you or anyone you know wants to get in early and cash in on the tremendous upside to be enjoyed over the next 10 years.

Otherwise I am forced to keep it and beat the balls off it every track event I go to.

To that end the new owner not only will be making an exceptional and visionary investment but also saving a good car from a certain life of extreme operational torture. Would someone please find it in their heart to fork over the 300k to save this car?

[Policy Limits]

Muahahahahaha

[stradman]

This very recent phenomenon(only 3-4 years) of gated cars selling for more will die down. And remember it's still this generation that is buying these, not the next generation, based on the assumption or trying to second guess future values on what their current taste is at the moment. Next generation won't care as they won't know any better, nor will they have the ability or even desire to do so.
I have 4 kids- young adults and older teenagers. I have over a dozen high end classic sports cars and they simply cannot be bothered to get too excited by any of these-and their friends are the same. No, I'm convinced the interest stops with us guys and so enjoy the cars for what they are-that is what matters I think. Not what the potential value is going to be in 10 or 20 years time...

[Steve M]

I consider analog cars to mean those with naturally aspirated motors, manual transmissions, and little to no electronic aids. Think of cars that rumble and shake when you start them, that smell a bit like unburnt fuel when you stand behind them, that feel raw when you sit inside them, etc. There is no drive-by-wire, fly-by-wire, or any of that other crap. Analog cars are the pure driver's cars, offering the most direct sensation of working a car down the road, or around a track.

...


The section quoted is where you lost me. If you cut your definition of an analog car short at requiring a naturally aspirated motor and a manual transmission, then you just described a Viper, which is indeed a dying breed. As soon as you mention electronic aids, however, the Gen 5 Viper has the most electronic aids ever stuffed into this platform. Although I've never personally driven a Gen 5 (or any other Gen Viper for that matter), there are plenty of reviews from owners out there that essentially state that those aids and electronic gizmos are what made the Viper tolerable for them. I guess Dodge realized that people paying $100k+ for a car didn't want the interior that was lifted straight from a Dodge Caravan parts bin, and also wanted a car that they didn't feel like was going to kill them if they got a little carried away.

Personally, I don't consider the Gen 5 an analog car - it has drive-by-wire, ABS, traction control, stability control, hill assist, even cruise control. From all accounts, Dodge maintained that raw feeling, but an analog car it ain't. Just look at how many people on these boards bitched about not having an auto with flappy paddles as an option for the Gen 5, not to mention the other threads about wanting a high revving, overhead cam, lower displacement engine. The market is changing, and people value high tech over what I would consider to be a more blunt approach.

Will there be those that will pay top dollar for something like an ACR-E? Absolutely...there are lots of people in this world, and some of them even have money. IMO, that won't be the norm, and I think we've all seen evidence of that with the ever diminishing value of the earlier Gen Vipers, which are arguably far more analog than the Gen 5. Hell, even the used Gen 5 Viper market has taken a hit, probably only made worse by some of the more outrageously optioned GTS's that only sold after sitting for years on dealer lots. The Viper has always inspired passion, but that's never generated sales, even in the used market. I honestly don't ever see that changing.

[Policy Limits]

When will prowlers start climbing? Lol

[OneofOneViper]

The section quoted is where you lost me. If you cut your definition of an analog car short at requiring a naturally aspirated motor and a manual transmission, then you just described a Viper, which is indeed a dying breed. As soon as you mention electronic aids, however, the Gen 5 Viper has the most electronic aids ever stuffed into this platform. Although I've never personally driven a Gen 5 (or any other Gen Viper for that matter), there are plenty of reviews from owners out there that essentially state that those aids and electronic gizmos are what made the Viper tolerable for them. I guess Dodge realized that people paying $100k+ for a car didn't want the interior that was lifted straight from a Dodge Caravan parts bin, and also wanted a car that they didn't feel like was going to kill them if they got a little carried away.

Personally, I don't consider the Gen 5 an analog car - it has drive-by-wire, ABS, traction control, stability control, hill assist, even cruise control. From all accounts, Dodge maintained that raw feeling, but an analog car it ain't. Just look at how many people on these boards bitched about not having an auto with flappy paddles as an option for the Gen 5, not to mention the other threads about wanting a high revving, overhead cam, lower displacement engine. The market is changing, and people value high tech over what I would consider to be a more blunt approach.

Will there be those that will pay top dollar for something like an ACR-E? Absolutely...there are lots of people in this world, and some of them even have money. IMO, that won't be the norm, and I think we've all seen evidence of that with the ever diminishing value of the earlier Gen Vipers, which are arguably far more analog than the Gen 5. Hell, even the used Gen 5 Viper market has taken a hit, probably only made worse by some of the more outrageously optioned GTS's that only sold after sitting for years on dealer lots. The Viper has always inspired passion, but that's never generated sales, even in the used market. I honestly don't ever see that changing.

One undeniable factor you didn't put into your analysis. 2017 is the first year that that I can remember (and I've been around the viper scene since 1999) where demand out ways supply when it comes to ACR-Es. I'm not including the other models as they don't have the same attraction to them that the ACRE's do but even with the massive influx of ACR-E's this year with over 200+ specialty cars, these as well as all other 1 of 1's have been sold out almost half a year before production ends. Sure, some of those cars are going to dealers and may sit on the lot for awhile because they are going above MSRP, but very few ACR-E's are left to be bought at dealers and color choice is getting rarer by the day.

[SnakeWatching]

When will prowlers start climbing? Lol

Probably after a decade or two - but it gets the most head turns of any car and is a blast to drive together with the Viper.
Kids think the Prowler is a Hot Wheel coming down the road - and they almost fall over! when they see it.
23238

[Steve M]

One undeniable factor you didn't put into your analysis. 2017 is the first year that that I can remember (and I've been around the viper scene since 1999) where demand out ways supply when it comes to ACR-Es. I'm not including the other models as they don't have the same attraction to them that the ACRE's do but even with the massive influx of ACR-E's this year with over 200+ specialty cars, these as well as all other 1 of 1's have been sold out almost half a year before production ends. Sure, some of those cars are going to dealers and may sit on the lot for awhile because they are going above MSRP, but very few ACR-E's are left to be bought at dealers and color choice is getting rarer by the day.

I'd hardly consider my random ramblings to be "analysis"...of all the variants, the ACR-Es will surely hold value better than others, but I don't think the original estimate of $500k within 10 years is going to come to pass. Gen 4 ACRs certainly command a premium over the standard coupes and verts of that generation, but you don't see them actually appreciating in value.

[Policy Limits]

Probably after a decade or two - but it gets the most head turns of any car and is a blast to drive together with the Viper.
23238

Great picture!

[Policy Limits]

I'd hardly consider my random ramblings to be "analysis"...of all the variants, the ACR-Es will surely hold value better than others, but I don't think the original estimate of $500k within 10 years is going to come to pass. Gen 4 ACRs certainly command a premium over the standard coupes and verts of that generation, but you don't see them actually appreciating in value.

Gen 4 cars don't have this level of engineering, refinement and interior quality. Plus the 2010 final editions were just kidding ones. Ha.

[Bmw2nv2000]

Gen V section is always entertaining with their predicted values. And the apple to oranges comparisons to other cars that have done well. But cherry picking the very few models that have actually went up in value vs the 1000's of models that didnt is silly imo.
And i will 100% argue about the last raw car is the 06 viper. Ive owned several gen 4's mostly acr's and i decided to go back to an 06 coupe simply because i hated the drive by wire(even after doing every mod on them including mopar controller the gen 4's drive by wire still bugged me).
But maybe the vipers will go up in value someday since ive sunk $30k in mods into my 06.

[Policy Limits]

GTS-R cars 20 years old are worth 6 figs now. History repeats itself.

[Bmw2nv2000]

Gen 4 cars don't have this level of engineering, refinement and interior quality. Plus the 2010 final editions were just kidding ones. Ha.

Damn you must be the coolest guy in the world to own the most bad ass viper ever. At least thats what you spend every day telling us all.
Fyi. This will come as a heart attack shock to you but some people prefer the more raw look and feel of a gen 4 acr

[Policy Limits]

Then why don't you go to the gen 4 section if it's so great? Bunch of parts pieced together with no engineering behind it. Fatalities in previous gens, many.

[Bmw2nv2000]

Then why don't you go to the gen 4 section if it's so great? Bunch of parts pieced together with no engineering behind it. Fatalities in previous gens, many.

Lmao Good lord do you even realize ********************? You should start a pole thread to see how much member love you (have as to why) ************************** your "special edition" is so much better than all other gen 5's.
#1 reason all us poor previous gen owners come to genV section is pure entertainment value. You new viper guys who are so good at educating us underlings

[Mbccenter]

Great post OP. This is why I purchased a new ACR-E. just don't think you can go wrong with one.

[RedTanRT/10]

#1 reason all us poor previous gen owners come to genV section is pure entertainment value. You new viper guys who are so good at educating us underlings

Not my #1 reason, but some are very entertaining!


GTS-R cars 20 years old are worth 6 figs now. History repeats itself.

Policy, read this thread earlier and the GTS-R came to mind. A less than 1000 mi car brings 20%-30% above the list price of $85k. A 10k mile maybe list price? These cars were built to commemorate Dodge's FIA GT2 championship win, and a race GTSR won LeMans. This and the '92's (a sub 1k '92 might also sell for list plus 20-30K) are arguably the most desired vipers, especially by viper enthusiasts who are older and have a ton of discretionary $$$'s.

I wish all the G5 ACR owners great appreciation, but not sure it will mirror the examples in this thread of the other cars mentioned.

[SilveRT8]

The FUTURE is not was it used to be anymore !

[LABrit]

Who cares...even if it appreciates by $100k in 20 years that's still a shit return. It's not going to suddenly be worth that anytime soon like other marques so this talk is just that...talk.

[bigmacsmallfries]

I think the OP did a good job outlining exactly why this car would be worth more than another supercar. It's always a big deal when a car is the 'last'. In this case, last of the factory thats closing down, hydraulic steering, manual transmission, long front deck chassis, and no forced induction. Also great story, now 14 track records, largest engine in the world in a production car, looks like an actual racecar, etc.. Although, at best I would see the values being 300k 5 years from now being (double) best case scenario. There's less than 1000 ACRs being made and even the Ford GT is less rare which may be going for close to 1 million shortly.

Either way, factory needs to close and all the cars need to be delivered (Sept 2017) before there is significant movement or asking prices being to trend upwards.

[Mark1107]

Lol, russias napoleon putin destroys another thread! Good job policy limits. You win liddle boy. 23251



Lmao Good lord do you even realize what a giant douche you are? You should start a pole thread to see how much member love you with all your douche bag quotes like the one above about how shitty the gen 4's are and of course all the whinny quotes about why your "special edition" is so much better than all other gen 5's.
#1 reason all us poor previous gen owners come to genV section is pure entertainment value. You new viper guys who are so good at educating us underlings

[Policy Limits]

Lmao Good lord do you even realize ********************? You should start a pole thread to see how much member love you (have as to why) ************************** your "special edition" is so much better than all other gen 5's.
#1 reason all us poor previous gen owners come to genV section is pure entertainment value. You new viper guys who are so good at educating us underlings

Rut Row... personal attacks in violation of forum rules...Mods, time to take out the trash....

[Policy Limits]

Who cares...even if it appreciates by $100k in 20 years that's still a shit return. It's not going to suddenly be worth that anytime soon like other marques so this talk is just that...talk.

Very true. Especially when you consider the years of paying taxes, insurance, maintenance.

[Bmw2nv2000]

Bwahaha. If you seriously think thats a personal attack you can add thin skinned to your list of winning personality traits. Its actually more about simple math.

Policy limit + tell every gen 4 owner they own an unengineered pieced together pile= ********

Please start a poll. Lets see how that turns out.

[Purple Haze]

Lmao....


i fear the generation of snowflakes coming along now will be too scared of the viper and wont have popped their mama's titty out of their mouths to drive one.

[whitebeard]

Both of you children calm down. This maybe your sandbox, but it isn't a catbox. Stop pooing in it.

[texasram]

Very true. Especially when you consider the years of paying taxes, insurance, maintenance.

Theres no car tax in texas, yupee!!

- - - Updated - - -


Both of you children calm down. This maybe your sandbox, but it isn't a catbox. Stop pooing in it.

Yeah this is worse than when me and Antonio from calvo got into it lol

[Scott_in_fl]

Why prior gens never saw price appreciation:

You can never get higher prices if you cannot entice people with the means to pay them -- Viper never, never, never appealed to the elite car buyer until right now. It was never marketed correctly, never provided a proper dealership experience, and never caught the glory of the media. Even if you could interest the Ferrari owner enough to walk into a Dodge showroom, you turned him off as soon as he spoke to the salesperson that knew nothing about the car. He was further turned off if you opened up the car and let him sit in it (if the dealer even did that -- most would not). Compared to his cars at home, the cars felt junky on the inside and, even though some buyers were able to look past that, the discriminating buyer could not (Corvette was also suffering this same problem at the time).

The new car has the interest of the elite buyer. It now sits next to the Ferrari in many garages. That is a new phenomenon that is unique to the Gen V (and more specifically to the Gen V ACRE). When those types of buyers want this car, and when there are not enough cars to go around, prices can move up in a competitive fashion.

This is simple supply and demand. The difference now being the wealth of the demand source to pay up significantly.

[texasram]

Why prior gens never saw price appreciation:

You can never get higher prices if you cannot entice people with the means to pay them -- Viper never, never, never appealed to the elite car buyer until right now. It was never marketed correctly, never provided a proper dealership experience, and never caught the glory of the media. Even if you could interest the Ferrari owner enough to walk into a Dodge showroom, you turned him off as soon as he spoke to the salesperson that knew nothing about the car. He was further turned off if you opened up the car and let him sit in it (if the dealer even did that -- most would not). Compared to his cars at home, the cars felt junky on the inside and, even though some buyers were able to look past that, the discriminating buyer could not (Corvette was also suffering this same problem at the time).

The new car has the interest of the elite buyer. It now sits next to the Ferrari in many garages. That is a new phenomenon that is unique to the Gen V (and more specifically to the Gen V ACRE). When those types of buyers want this car, and when there are not enough cars to go around, prices can move up.

Ive see evidence of the marketing prospect by means of social media, someone posted a meme about the stock block capabilities with the factory forging and everyones mind was blown, big time street racers JUST NOW realizing the factory blocks capabilities after the fact that the car is discontinued

[Scott_in_fl]

Excellent point as well. Dodge never did a good job of educating the public about the benefits of such a large displacement, relatively unstressed motor in the Viper. The car has always been a terrific candidate for huge HP applications, and they were done, but never really publicized (to the proper target).

Ford did this very well when the GT was known to be able to make huge power and set standing 1/2 mile and mile records all over the place. Social media loves that stuff. Where was Dodge -- especially when its motor likely could have handled more without a problem?

[Dave1968]

I have a good one for you Scott. I will predict the value of ALL cars will drop simply because we will no longer be able to drive them except on the track. The best investment now if you can is to buy land and be ready to build a track on it. Self driving cars will be on the road everywhere in 10 years, and unfortunately the majority in probably 30 years. There is no way the human operated vehicle is going to be allowed because it is proven that human error is the cause in something like 90% of all accidents. We will be regulated out of the drivers seat to specific off road places only, tracks, if we want to operate our own vehicles. Electric cars are the future and they are coming fast - forget about hybrids, hydrogen, etc... the only thing holding back the electric car is the batteries, and the electric cars of today are fitted such that the batteries can be replaced with better ones when the technology arrives. Our kids right now are the last generation to drive their own cars and only for a short time depending of course on how old they are. I'm 52, so by 80 my cars will be furniture like someone else said, unless they let me on a track to drive - maybe, maybe not at that age lol. So that being said, I believe we should just get out and drive while we can and not think about resale value because some of us might sell our cars to some rich person with lots of land, but the majority will sit and gather dust until we are buried in one of them.

[Donato]

Self driving cars follow all the rules of the road, if the speed limit is 55 MPH on the freeway, all the self driving cars will be gridlocked at 55 MPH. This would be pure torture for the performance auto enthusiast..

[ViperDC]

There will only ever be hundreds, not thousands, of Gen V ACR's. $500k is not unreasonable within 10 years.

bwahahahahahahahahahahhaahahahah

[ACRSNK]

There are cars that have appreciated over 5x their original cost over the last 30 years although not many. One specific example that comes to mind is the 1987 Buick GNX. 1987 was the last year of production for the Buick Grand National. They built over 20,000 GN's that year through December of 1987 and to go out with a bang, they built the GNX. In fact, they built 547 GNX's. The cost for that car new was about $30K. Wrapper cars at auction typically fetch in the $120 - $150K range today, which is 4 - 5x what they cost new. Now...the GNX was a car that was unlike the "regular" turbo Regal as it had a special turbo and totally different suspension in addition to cosmetic enhancements. This is what I wish they did with the "special edition" Vipers. Something more than paint would have been nice, but in the end, its not far fetched to see a car bring 4 - 5 x its selling price in 30 years. That would mean nearly $750K for one of these cars in 30 years. Not too shabby, although you would be much better off investing in real estate if making money is your end game. Investing in cars in never a wise decision, just a fun one :) Only time will tell.

[Granger73]

Some great opinions and some mind boggling projections. However in the long run, I believe that the primary criteria that will drive the collectabilty factor will be performance as measured against its contemporaries. In the true muscle car era, with few exceptions, solid lifters ruled the day.

[Scott_in_fl]

Dave, I'm with you. But, I'll argue that we're already at the point where we can't drive these cars on the road. I grew up in the 1970's in Miami, Florida. Back then, we drove wherever we wanted, whatever we wanted, at whatever speeds, and largely got away with it :)

I could pull my ATC out of the garage, ride down a few neighborhood streets, jump onto some trails, and find my way into and throughout the everglades. 10 years later, they outlawed ATC's (3-wheelers).

As a teenager, I modded my Mustang GT 5.0 and picked races with all the Buick GN's we could find. That was the car back then, as ACRSNK mentions.

Today, you can't do any of it on public roads, mainly because there is nowhere to really get something running at a good speed. Traffic is everywhere. Pedestrians are everywhere. Down my way, there are no open spaces any longer.

The point is that we can't drive these things on the road now anyway (the way they were meant to be enjoyed). I can put around to the office, and back. But, that's about it. Thus, the recent increase in track events. This concept of renting out a roadcourse for a day, and inviting friends or the public to drive around at a DE event, although relatively new, is the next big thing (and it has been going strong for 5-6 years now). I remember when this started with "open track days" when I was racing motorcycles. The car guys caught on, and now there are events just about everywhere, and quite often. This will likely proliferate if the congestion on public roads increases. More tracks will be developed, etc.

So, I'm with you. Public roads are a closed chapter if not now (where you live), in the very near future. But, other outlets for enjoying motorsports are flourishing. I'm seeing the same thing with off-road venues, with large parks being developed for kids to take their RZR's and dirtbikes to. These are great sports, and there is (hopefully) always going to be a demand to enjoy them.

[plumcrazy]

am i the only one pissed off to have a whats it worth debate and not see dave6666 in it ?

[BlknBlu]

No one can predict what will be collectible, if so buy up everyone of a particular car and wait. Vipers are not Hemi Cuda convertibles.

Bruce

[stradman]

I have a good one for you Scott. I will predict the value of ALL cars will drop simply because we will no longer be able to drive them except on the track. The best investment now if you can is to buy land and be ready to build a track on it. Self driving cars will be on the road everywhere in 10 years, and unfortunately the majority in probably 30 years. There is no way the human operated vehicle is going to be allowed because it is proven that human error is the cause in something like 90% of all accidents. We will be regulated out of the drivers seat to specific off road places only, tracks, if we want to operate our own vehicles. Electric cars are the future and they are coming fast - forget about hybrids, hydrogen, etc... the only thing holding back the electric car is the batteries, and the electric cars of today are fitted such that the batteries can be replaced with better ones when the technology arrives. Our kids right now are the last generation to drive their own cars and only for a short time depending of course on how old they are. I'm 52, so by 80 my cars will be furniture like someone else said, unless they let me on a track to drive - maybe, maybe not at that age lol. So that being said, I believe we should just get out and drive while we can and not think about resale value because some of us might sell our cars to some rich person with lots of land, but the majority will sit and gather dust until we are buried in one of them.
^^^^^^
This. However your timeline is most certainly too soon . Pretty much what ever you said will take place, but not in 10 years. From 2030 there will be self driving cars in larger numbers but initially at least there will also be driven cars. After another 10 years then probably all will be self driven. So by 2035- 2040 much more likely.

[Boosted Motorsports]

am i the only one pissed off to have a whats it worth debate and not see dave6666 in it ?

Yeah I was looking for some entertainment in the pipe dream forecast!

GEN V ACR cars will depreciate like all vehicles do. Then maybe, JUST MAYBE, return to original MSRP in 7-10years after inflation has taken its toll netting a zero ROI. They will hold value better than other GEN V variants but will certainly not see an appreciation to 500k anytime soon. I plan to pick one up in about 2-3 years around the 90-100k mark and I don't think I will have any issues doing so.

[OneofOneViper]

Yeah I was looking for some entertainment in the pipe dream forecast!

GEN V ACR cars will depreciate like all vehicles do. Then maybe, JUST MAYBE, return to original MSRP in 7-10years after inflation has taken its toll netting a zero ROI. They will hold value better than other GEN V variants but will certainly not see an appreciation to 500k anytime soon. I plan to pick one up in about 2-3 years around the 90-100k mark and I don't think I will have any issues doing so.

I like your thought process. Just like the stock market, the reason prices go higher is because everyone is waiting for it to drop to get what they want at the price they want. Eventually some give up and just jump in. Others miss out completely. We'll just add you to the pike of demand for the ACREs that are already out there

[OneofOneViper]

No one can predict what will be collectible, if so buy up everyone of a particular car and wait. Vipers are not Hemi Cuda convertibles.

Bruce


I'm calling BS. Some cars can be predicted. The new FGT, the La Ferrari, Mclaren F1, Ferrari Enzo. All incredibly expensive cars that were widely known to be collectible the moment they were announced. More demand than supply. Not quite the same as the ACRE because demand exceeded supply by a long shot on those other models. The ACRE has more supply, less demand (although demand still out weighs supply) and unlike those other cars, the viper is much more affordable which means they actually get driven. Not saying the ACRE is a good investment, just that some cars can easily be predicted as being collectible.

[Scott_in_fl]

I'm calling BS. Some cars can be predicted. The new FGT, the La Ferrari, Mclaren F1, Ferrari Enzo. All incredibly expensive cars that were widely known to be collectible the moment they were announced. More demand than supply. Not quite the same as the ACRE because demand exceeded supply by a long shot on those other models. The ACRE has more supply, less demand (although demand still out weighs supply) and unlike those other cars, the viper is much more affordable which means they actually get driven. Not saying the ACRE is a good investment, just that some cars can easily be predicted as being collectible.

100%. No matter what, it always comes down to supply vs. demand. In order to see vastly higher prices, you need to be able to entice buyers who can afford to bid the prices higher on a limited supply of cars. Today, anything in limited numbers from any of the storied brands commands extremely enthusiastic bidding. 911R's with sticker prices of $250k being resold for $700k as soon as they land!!!

In the current climate of performance car purchasing, Ferrari, Porsche, Lambo, McLaren could announce just about anything and, as long as it is somewhat limited, it will sell out immediately. Hell, a new Ferrari 4-cylinder car making 200hp and limited to 700 models would be gone in an instant. I can only imagine their management meetings, where they wonder how quickly they can get a new derivation of some model or another into production and pop out 900 "limited" copies. Wealthy car buyers seem to have an insatiable appetite right now for that sort of thing.

If Viper can continue to put a beating on the next generation of upcoming cars (NFGT is next, then Performante, then 750S), we could see a real explosion of supercar buyers getting in line for ACR's. It's already started to some degree, but it would be amazing if the newcomers still could not touch the current lap records (I've been watching this, and so far it's looking pretty good with FGT only able to improve Mac675LT time by about a second, while ACR-E is about 3 seconds faster on average).

[ViperDC]

I'm calling BS. Some cars can be predicted. The new FGT, the La Ferrari, Mclaren F1, Ferrari Enzo. All incredibly expensive cars that were widely known to be collectible the moment they were announced. More demand than supply. Not quite the same as the ACRE because demand exceeded supply by a long shot on those other models. The ACRE has more supply, less demand (although demand still out weighs supply) and unlike those other cars, the viper is much more affordable which means they actually get driven. Not saying the ACRE is a good investment, just that some cars can easily be predicted as being collectible.

Anyone can go buy a ACR E right now so I wouldn't say demand outweighs supply.

[Boosted Motorsports]

Just like the stock market, the reason prices go higher is because everyone is waiting for it to drop to get what they want at the price they want.

No that is not the primary driver or "reason" as you call it that stock market prices change...



100%. No matter what, it always comes down to supply vs. demand.

In the current climate of performance car purchasing, Ferrari, Porsche, Lambo, McLaren could announce just about anything and, as long as it is somewhat limited, it will sell out immediately.

These are two key sentences from your post.

First off it does not just come down to "supply vs demand" as this would be a blanket statement making almost any low production car exponentially valuable. The fact that Gerry Wood bought nearly all of the GEN V production for this year is artificial demand so you cannot say that they sold more than supply could offer. There are many brand new unsold 2017 cars for sale and sitting on lots. 2017MY cars are not even close to being all spoken for by consumers.

If you want to use a Mopar or Viper example look at a 1998 GTSR. Those cars are barely worth more than they were purchased for almost 20 years ago. An exclusive car, low supply. Sure you might argue that the GEN V ACR is more sought after than previous versions but at the time the GTS-R was also a comparable example for both performance and exclusivity to F-Cars and P-Cars etc of their respective category and year.

Instead of continually comparing foreign exotic examples why not look at another close to home example. A GEN IV ACR was the king of ring during its day. Exclusive car, low production, and beat other manufacture track records. It is nearing 10 years since that car's inception and prices are not 4x or 5x the price?

I am a Viper fan and will definitely be buying a GEN V ACR but not as an investment in monetary value, I'll be purchasing it for pure joy and satisfaction.

[ViperDC]

100%. No matter what, it always comes down to supply vs. demand. In order to see vastly higher prices, you need to be able to entice buyers who can afford to bid the prices higher on a limited supply of cars. Today, anything in limited numbers from any of the storied brands commands extremely enthusiastic bidding. 911R's with sticker prices of $250k being resold for $700k as soon as they land!!!

Please stop comparing a Viper with limited run Porsches and Ferraris. It is a fool's errand. Those cars have massive collector followings around the globe with some deep pockets. Lots are caught up in the Porsche hype especially right now (LOL at air cooled Porsche prices). Like all things, muscle cars in the mid 2000s, vintage Ferraris in the 80s, etc. the bubble will eventually burst and the cycle will start over again.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I think you would be doing very well to get MSRP for an ACR 10 years down the road. 500k? Please.

[ViperSmith]

It's been 25y since the 1992 rolled out

Where are the lot of $300,000 1992s?

[Scott_in_fl]

Please stop comparing a Viper with limited run Porsches and Ferraris. It is a fool's errand. Those cars have massive collector followings around the globe with some deep pockets. Lots are caught up in the Porsche hype especially right now (LOL at air cooled Porsche prices). Like all things, muscle cars in the mid 2000s, vintage Ferraris in the 80s, etc. the bubble will eventually burst and the cycle will start over again.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I think you would be doing very well to get MSRP for an ACR 10 years down the road. 500k? Please.

Not comparing Viper to Porsche or Ferrari. Not saying that tomorrow you'll be able to sell your Viper for the amount that you can sell a 911R. Only pointing out what happens when big money chases limited supply. Obviously, you need to create the requisite interest to drive the chase. My point has been that the Gen 5 ACR is the first Viper to show signs of sparking that interest.


It's been 25y since the 1992 rolled out

Where are the lot of $300,000 1992s?


Comparing the current ACR to the 1992 car is short sighted. You should read the 43-page thread on Rennlist about guys over there with massive collections beaming about the current ACR. You never saw this with any prior gen. http://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-gt3rs-and-911r/906404-ot-my-full-review-of-the-2016-viper-acr.html

Do we even have any threads that are 43-pages deep over here? Do you realize that is primarily a Porsche forum? Have you ever seen that kind of cross-brand enthusiasm for the Viper (crossing over from the right brands)? I have not. If you don't want to read 43 pages (and I have), a quicker read is from this gentleman should certainly know what he is talking about: http://rennlist.com/articles/long-time-porsche-owner-loves-new-viper-acr/

[murksyou]

Please stop comparing a Viper with limited run Porsches and Ferraris. It is a fool's errand. Those cars have massive collector followings around the globe with some deep pockets. Lots are caught up in the Porsche hype especially right now (LOL at air cooled Porsche prices). Like all things, muscle cars in the mid 2000s, vintage Ferraris in the 80s, etc. the bubble will eventually burst and the cycle will start over again.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I think you would be doing very well to get MSRP for an ACR 10 years down the road. 500k? Please.

Who knows what with the hurst gen 4 selling for over 200k a few months back. The scope and demand of the classic car market is at a point where it has never been before. If comparing a viper to a Ferrari is too much for you then how about the toyota supra and NSX values? Supras are selling for 80k with low miles and NSX's are well into the 100's.

[murksyou]

Not comparing Viper to Porsche or Ferrari. Not saying that tomorrow you'll be able to sell your Viper for the amount that you can sell a 911R. Only pointing out what happens when big money chases limited supply. Obviously, you need to create the requisite interest to drive the chase. My point has been that the Gen 5 ACR is the first Viper to show signs of sparking that interest.



Comparing the current ACR to the 1992 car is short sighted. You should read the 43-page thread on Rennlist about guys over there with massive collections beaming about the current ACR. You never saw this with any prior gen. http://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-gt3rs-and-911r/906404-ot-my-full-review-of-the-2016-viper-acr.html

Do we even have any threads that are 43-pages deep over here? Do you realize that is primarily a Porsche forum? Have you ever seen that kind of cross-brand enthusiasm for the Viper (crossing over from the right brands)? I have not. If you don't want to read 43 pages (and I have), a quicker read is from this gentleman should certainly know what he is talking about: http://rennlist.com/articles/long-time-porsche-owner-loves-new-viper-acr/

Sorry, but what you are saying about previous models is not true. I know the 90's was a long time ago, but to say that the viper didn't make a splash back in the day is false. It literally had everyone drooling over it especially young boys that are now approaching their 40's who had the burago models in their rooms. Once those boys realize they can get them for 30-40k everyone's gonna start buying em and values are going to go nuts, infact, its already happening. I'd say a gen 2 gts will be worth 100k all day long in a few years or even months only time will tell.

[J TNT]

am i the only one pissed off to have a whats it worth debate and not see dave6666 in it ?

dave who ?.....lol ! :witless:

[Dave1968]

.


I am a Viper fan and will definitely be buying a GEN V ACR but not as an investment in monetary value, I'll be purchasing it for pure joy and satisfaction.[/QUOTE]

The Gen V's of the most value might also be those that have a clean record and have 16,000 miles or more on them to prove they are flawless cars. I'm with you, drive that car as much as you can because they will all be off the road soon enough.

[Arizona Vipers]

Self driving cars will be a long way out too and will depend a lot on infrastructure.

Autonomous Uber cars were just unleashed here on the streets in Arizona last week (starting with Tempe). Once the government and insurance agency's see how many lives and property damages are saved with autonomous cars all hell is going to break loose :( Human driving cars will be a thing of the past very soon, I've been saying this for a few years. Hopefully "they" will let us drive our cars on certain days of the week, more than just "parade" type special occasions and to car shows.

[Canuck]

It's been 25y since the 1992 rolled out

Where are the lot of $300,000 1992s?

As an aside, in 1992 they didn't always trade hands for just sticker. Mine was posted in its lot with a eye-watering '$75,000' Adjusted Market Value added on. Destination charge was included (bet that was appreciated!). The list price+adjusted market value made for a total price of '$128,300'. If using the examples listed above of a five-fold return over 25 years, that would be $641,500, making $50,000-$60,000 seem like a mild price for a well-preserved 1992 example.

[BJG32]

am i the only one pissed off to have a whats it worth debate and not see dave6666 in it ?

Lol.... he's king of gen 2 values only i guess.

I'll fill in for him "Oh great another value thread. You idiots!!!! This car is not and will not ever be collectable. Drive your cars!"

[Mark1107]

Yeah I was looking for some entertainment in the pipe dream forecast!

GEN V ACR cars will depreciate like all vehicles do. Then maybe, JUST MAYBE, return to original MSRP in 7-10years after inflation has taken its toll netting a zero ROI. They will hold value better than other GEN V variants but will certainly not see an appreciation to 500k anytime soon. I plan to pick one up in about 2-3 years around the 90-100k mark and I don't think I will have any issues doing so.[/
- - - Updated - - -

[QUOTE=omalley_808;279157]Yeah I was looking for some entertainment in the pipe dream forecast!

GEN V ACR cars will depreciate like all vehicles do. Then maybe, JUST MAYBE, return to original MSRP in 7-10years after inflation has taken its toll netting a zero ROI. They will hold value better than other GEN V variants but will certainly not see an appreciation to 500k anytime soon. I plan to pick one up in about 2-3 years around the 90-100k mark and I don't think I will have any issues doing so.



There was a 2016 ACR listed on eBay for 101k...it sold in like an hour. You should keep your eyes open. It had a clean car fax no stories. Not an extreme though.

[ViperJon]

I'd say a gen 2 gts will be worth 100k all day long in a few years or even months only time will tell.

Mic drop and walks off the stage.

[7TH_SIGN]

Only time will tell. If in fact this is the final Viper I can see them appreciating.

No one would have ever thought that a Toyota Supra with a sticker price of $40,000 would appreciate to $100,000+.

[GTSgreg]

Couple that with the fact that younger generations don't really care about driving and more about gadgets and yeah...to me the future isn't that bright as a car enthusiast.

Im 27 and couldn't be a bigger gear head! Although I can't find a buddy my age who wants to be a gear head and collect and play with cars with me!!

[BJG32]

I see ALOT of young kids at cars and coffee events. I think those events will help keep the interest alive.

[ViperSRT]

So how did values change following the last end of Viper production in 2010? I do not recall any upward change at the time. Expecting different now is nice but foolish. Buy to drive. If they become a collector car in 30-50 years my grand kids (assuming some are born) can collect the cash.

[OneofOneViper]

So how did values change following the last end of Viper production in 2010? I do not recall any upward change at the time. Expecting different now is nice but foolish. Buy to drive. If they become a collector car in 30-50 years my grand kids (assuming some are born) can collect the cash.

So first, I don't know anyone who actually believed the last year of the viper was permanent or long term in 2010. But whether someone believed that or not, that usually doesn't really matter as far as the gar going up in value. The reality is that even in 2010, vipers were not selling. The recession had just occurred and the vipers were just sitting on the lots and selling for well below sticker price.

Completely different scenario than this newest generation. People actually want these gen 5 ACRs if they can afford them. That includes P guys, F guys, and lambo guys---a crowd that in general never gave the viper credit before.

[BJG32]

I keep reading the same thing..........a lot of people are assuming the optimistic owners thinking values will go up bought mainly because its an investment in our future. I think we all bought to enjoy driving the car.....we're just trying to figure out if there is an added perk to ownership of this car. I won't lose any sleep over where values go from here. I drive both my vipers every single weekend.

The more positive talk we spread about values going up, the more positive hype we will build and increase chances of it happening. If a buyer comes to this site and see's a bunch of positive posts about value, then chances are you are going to get closer to that high asking price EVERY owner asks on there cars when it's time to sell.

It will be funny to see the asking prices these owners shitting all over future values ask when its time for them to sell. I bet their attitude about values changes at that point.

We're doing a great job killing our values with shitty engine threads (I'm guilty) and LOLs at owners positive about the cars value.

[City]

My apologies for having to edit a few of the prior posts in this thread, but we rec'd several complaints and frankly, just a bit of the language used and the direct object of said language was blatantly beyond our forum rules. The vast majority of this thread, IMO, is quite an interesting read. Sorry for the intrusion.

[ViperJon]

I see ALOT of young kids at cars and coffee events. I think those events will help keep the interest alive.

Me too. Looking at the Lambo's and GTR's.

[Scott_in_fl]

I keep reading the same thing..........a lot of people are assuming the optimistic owners thinking values will go up bought mainly because its an investment in our future. I think we all bought to enjoy driving the car.....we're just trying to figure out if there is an added perk to ownership of this car. I won't lose any sleep over where values go from here. I drive both my vipers every single weekend.

The more positive talk we spread about values going up, the more positive hype we will build and increase chances of it happening. If a buyer comes to this site and see's a bunch of positive posts about value, then chances are you are going to get closer to that high asking price EVERY owner asks on there cars when it's time to sell.

It will be funny to see the asking prices these owners shitting all over future values ask when its time for them to sell. I bet their attitude about values changes at that point.

We're doing a great job killing our values with shitty engine threads (I'm guilty) and LOLs at owners positive about the cars value.

Winner, winner, Chicken dinner!

We're all going to drive these things. In fact, I plan to drive the wheels off the car when I get it.

Nobody is here to suggest buying the car as your retirement plan. The intention of the original thread was to point out some factors that are unique to the current gen (and specifically the ACR) that should relate to a different valuation slope compared to what we have seen in the past. That is all.

The 10 year estimate was more for fun than anything else but, in my opinion, not unreasonable. Remember, there are plenty of other factors that come into play that we still have not discussed (anticipated increasing rate of inflation/devaluation of dollar over mid-term, the phasing out of paper currency/transition to electronic currency, global economic growth prospects as more developed nations can now help advance technology at a faster rate, etc., etc.).

The future is bright folks, and I am of the belief that valuations for many hard assets are in the midst of a serious expansion cycle. The rest of the world is finally starting to come online and beginning to contribute to a global economy that is ready to get moving. If you haven't seen what is going on in Russia, China, Pan-Asia (I'll include Malaysia, Dubai, UAE, India in that definition), then you need to get on a plane and go educate yourself. These countries are moving quickly (and have been), and while you might not have expected much in the way of productivity, technology, and contribution to world GDP from them in the past, they are going to become real contributors very, very soon.

So, while this a fun discussion, we are just touching the tip of the iceberg. There's a lot more going on, and a lot more coming in the next 10-20 years (and it is going to start coming faster, and faster). I'll be holding onto my piece of American memorabilia for a long time. And, if I'm around when Corvette calls it quits because it gets snuffed out by international competition (or mandates that everything must be autonomous, and thus no reason for all the current MFG's to build sports cars any longer), then I will also buy the final year of that as well.

[swexlin]

Me too. Looking at the Lambo's and GTR's.
You're right Jon! We have a few Lambos show at our C&C. FWIW, my friend (who has had several Ferraris, and is currently awaiting the arrival of his 570S) had his teenage nephew up this past weekend. He came up to me as soon as I pulled in, and mentioned that his nephew loved the GEn 5, and can he sit and it an have his pic taken.

So all hope is not lost, LOL!

[Boosted Motorsports]

And, if I'm around when Corvette calls it quits because it gets snuffed out by international competition (or mandates that everything must be autonomous, and thus no reason for all the current MFG's to build sports cars any longer), then I will also buy the final year of that as well.

I'll take what he is having! Corvette get sniffed out? LOL :smilielol:

Corvettes are selling like hotcakes to mid-life crisis men, females, and everything and anything in between that can afford one. As cookie cutter as it is, the Corvette an American sports car that is not going anywhere anytime soon...

[Scott_in_fl]

Omalley, do you read?

Several contributors to this thread have made the argument that cars will be autonomous at some point in the not-so-distant future.

If that is the case, what do you think happens to the demand for sports cars from "mid-life crisis men, females, and everything and anything in between" when you can't drive them on public roads (and are relegated to private venues)?

[Policy Limits]

Bwahaha. If you seriously think thats a personal attack you can add thin skinned to your list of winning personality traits. Its actually more about simple math.

Policy limit + tell every gen 4 owner they own an unengineered pieced together pile= ********

Please start a poll. Lets see how that turns out.

Deleted

[ViperDC]

Who knows what with the hurst gen 4 selling for over 200k a few months back. The scope and demand of the classic car market is at a point where it has never been before. If comparing a viper to a Ferrari is too much for you then how about the toyota supra and NSX values? Supras are selling for 80k with low miles and NSX's are well into the 100's.

Please stop pulling numbers out of your ass.

EDIT: Oh yeah you're the guy that had all the "hot takes" on Gen II values. LOL, don't even know why I bothered responding

[stradman]

Winner, winner, Chicken dinner!



The future is bright folks, and I am of the belief that valuations for many hard assets are in the midst of a serious expansion cycle. .
Sorry Scott but the only reason there is an expansion of hard assets is because of this artificial environment of low interest rates, which has been going on for a long time and now forcing people to diversify into things they would not have done before(possibly risky assets as well) because they are getting no returns in the bank. However this can not and will not continue for ever. Once it does change you will see how some of these asset prices will tumble and how there will be a reset to the whole market. Can't of course say when it will happen but you can't just keep kicking the can down the road forever...Just saying.

[Scott_in_fl]

Sorry Scott but the only reason there is an expansion of hard assets is because of this artificial environment of low interest rates, which has been going on for a long time and now forcing people to diversify into things they would not have done before(possibly risky assets as well) because they are getting no returns in the bank. However this can not and will not continue for ever. Once it does change you will see how some of these asset prices will tumble and how there will be a reset to the whole market. Can't of course say when it will happen but you can't just keep kicking the can down the road forever...Just saying.

That has been the view of "dumb money" since the "irrational exuberance" call by Alan Greenspan 20 years ago.

Not calling you dumb but, as you may know, that is the term for the masses who try to compete with the "smart money" and consistently lose.

Trust me, it was hard for me to swallow too. I spent plenty of years fighting the trend 20 years ago and learned the hard way. If you're still fighting the smart money, then I genuinely, sincerely, wish you well.

[murksyou]

Please stop pulling numbers out of your ass.

EDIT: Oh yeah you're the guy that had all the "hot takes" on Gen II values. LOL, don't even know why I bothered responding

Uhhh how about you go onto the internet (yes the same internet that this site uses) and see for yourself. No numbers pulled out of my ass. You're probably the type that prefers "alternative facts", huh?

[Trainerdave]

23308
Sorry, but what you are saying about previous models is not true. I know the 90's was a long time ago, but to say that the viper didn't make a splash back in the day is false. It literally had everyone drooling over it especially young boys that are now approaching their 40's who had the burago models in their rooms. Once those boys realize they can get them for 30-40k everyone's gonna start buying em and values are going to go nuts, infact, its already happening. I'd say a gen 2 gts will be worth 100k all day long in a few years or even months only time will tell.

I am one of the boys, I could only afford corvettes back then which was awesome for a kid in his early 20's, now I'm on my second Viper and 7th corvette.
I also agree with the poster above, the ACR Viper will drop like every other model and will appreciate back to sticker in the next 10 years , Thinking any Viper will be worth 500k in 5 years is delusional , just wishful thinking on the owners part, everyone thinks their particular car may it be year/color/model etc... is the best/most rare/best looking... blah blah bla, it is in our nature, fact is people should just drive their cars and enjoy them, because they are not investments.

[murksyou]

So how did values change following the last end of Viper production in 2010? I do not recall any upward change at the time. Expecting different now is nice but foolish. Buy to drive. If they become a collector car in 30-50 years my grand kids (assuming some are born) can collect the cash.

The collector car market is not the same as it was in 2010. That was a time when you could still buy a non popup headlight NSX for 60k , a ferrari testarossa for 60-70k, a 964 turbo 3.6 for under 100k and a 300sl gullwing for 600k. Times change.

[City]

Please stop pulling numbers out of your ass.

EDIT: Oh yeah you're the guy that had all the "hot takes" on Gen II values. LOL, don't even know why I bothered responding


Uhhh how about you go onto the internet (yes the same internet that this site uses) and see for yourself. No numbers pulled out of my ass. You're probably the type that prefers "alternative facts", huh?

Seriously??? What the hell is the issue here in this thread. Civility! (Adequate in courtesy and politeness)

[bluesrt]

I fear the generation of snowflakes coming along now will be too scared of the viper and wont have popped their mama's titty out of their mouths to drive one.

lol,so true

[murksyou]

Haha you should've seen what happened with the alley boys when I posted about values at viperalley.

[99RT10]

Haha you should've seen what happened with the alley boys when I posted about values at viperalley.

You got bitch slapped and ran off crying like a little girl?


:D

[GerryWoodViper]

Which one will be worth the most?

23315

[BJG32]

Which one will be worth the most?

23315

Well....if you move that GTSR to Viper Exchange it will be worth $10k more than it is on your lot...LOL....

[murksyou]

You got bitch slapped and ran off crying like a little girl?


:D
nah you children couldn't handle my shit talk and I got banned

[stradman]

That has been the view of "dumb money" since the "irrational exuberance" call by Alan Greenspan 20 years ago.

Not calling you dumb but, as you may know, that is the term for the masses who try to compete with the "smart money" and consistently lose.

Trust me, it was hard for me to swallow too. I spent plenty of years fighting the trend 20 years ago and learned the hard way. If you're still fighting the smart money, then I genuinely, sincerely, wish you well.
Well if you think trees will continue to grow to the sky then best of luck to you mate! That's all I can say. I wish you well with your "smart money" Happy you have just arrived to the party...
I guess I have been pretty stupid collecting cars over the last 12 years... and making between 50-500%(average 300% I guess) profit plus within that time. The key however is to know when it stops....And it will. Just can't say exactly(no one can) when of course. But it will.....

[Boosted Motorsports]

Omalley, do you read?

Several contributors to this thread have made the argument that cars will be autonomous at some point in the not-so-distant future.

If that is the case, what do you think happens to the demand for sports cars from "mid-life crisis men, females, and everything and anything in between" when you can't drive them on public roads (and are relegated to private venues)?

Yes I have read all of the posts including the ridiculous one you have yet again contributed. You truly believe there will ONLY be autonomous cars in the near future? This will NEVER be the case in our lifetime!!!



I am one of the boys, I could only afford corvettes back then which was awesome for a kid in his early 20's, now I'm on my second Viper and 7th corvette.
I also agree with the poster above, the ACR Viper will drop like every other model and will appreciate back to sticker in the next 10 years , Thinking any Viper will be worth 500k in 5 years is delusional , just wishful thinking on the owners part, everyone thinks their particular car may it be year/color/model etc... is the best/most rare/best looking... blah blah bla, it is in our nature, fact is people should just drive their cars and enjoy them, because they are not investments.

We are on the same page with value forecasts as this was my theory posted above :)

[ACRSNK]

Well....if you move that GTSR to Viper Exchange it will be worth $10k more than it is on your lot...LOL....

Well said...Lol.

I think out of that lineup the GTS-R will be the one with the highest "value". That car is an ICON!

[bluesrt]

the viper will be back/ but waay different platform

[Policy Limits]

Which one will be worth the most?

23315

Well the one that looks like a Heritage Edition Ford GT has a great omen in that paint scheme!

[BJG32]

Well the one that looks like a Heritage Edition Ford GT has a great omen in that paint scheme!

Kind of ballsy painting a viper Ford colors, but someone will dig it.

[LABrit]

Which one will be worth the most?

23323

[Policy Limits]

Fo shizzle

[cashcorn]

23327

[ViperTony]

you got bitch slapped and ran off crying like a little girl?


:d

lol.

[ViperTony]

Well....if you move that GTSR to Viper Exchange it will be worth $10k more than it is on your lot...LOL....

If you're looking for one, there's one for sale @ sticker. I saw it today. ;) http://www.papascdjct.com/new-inventory/index.htm?search=viper&saveFacetState=true&lastFacetInteracted= http://www.chrysler.com/hostd/windowsticker/getWindowStickerPdf.do?vin=1C3BDEDZ8HV500266

[ViperDC]

Uhhh how about you go onto the internet (yes the same internet that this site uses) and see for yourself. No numbers pulled out of my ass. You're probably the type that prefers "alternative facts", huh?
I just did. How many NSXs for under 100 grand do you want? Even with sub 20k miles those cars aren't close to $100k much less "well into the hundreds"

Look kid I know you're pumped about your first Viper but no your Gen II GTS that they made over 6000 of will not be worth 100k anytime soon no matter how many Viper forums you visit to post this tripe

[Sybil TF]

am i the only one pissed off to have a whats it worth debate and not see dave6666 in it ?Yes.

[ddominator1]

Wow.. great thread!!! Now . now.. would certainly be a topic of conversation to put a #10 car limited production woodhouse ACR/TA car into the mix and valuation report!! That car in my belief will pop up in value substantially over the next 10 yrs!! woodhouse rocked that one all the way to the bank!! Dual stickers or not!!

[Snorman]

Haha you should've seen what happened with the alley boys when I posted about values at viperalley.Are you that moron who thought your maroon Gen V was worth $150k?
If so, you're a mouth-breathing moron. Your smack is weak and your gloating over here makes you look even more pathetic than you did over there.
S.

[ViperJon]

Wow.. great thread!!! Now . now.. would certainly be a topic of conversation to put a #10 car limited production woodhouse ACR/TA car into the mix and valuation report!! That car in my belief will pop up in value substantially over the next 10 yrs!! woodhouse rocked that one all the way to the bank!! Dual stickers or not!!

We get it....you bought one. Congrats. Now practice not becoming that guy who has to pump up his own ego in every post. It's a Dodge. Stay calm.

[Policy Limits]

I know that guy. And lol @ it's a dodge stay calm. Hahaha

[GerryWoodViper]

23351The green one (car #13 for the counters out there) is our demo track car - the one that I drove to set the production car track record at Carolina Motorsports Park. We are using this car for customer demos at various tracks on the East Coast this year as part of our Viper program (VIR, Watkins Glen, Mid Ohio, New Orelans, Roebling Road, Road Atlanta, CMP) Here is a collage of the 12 hoods;

[ViperTony]

i know that guy. And lol @ it's a dodge stay calm. Hahaha

lmao

[Policy Limits]

Glad u are laughing. Life is so short! Which is why we purchase toys like these in the first place!

[SnakeWatching]

I see A LOT of young kids at cars and coffee events. I think those events will help keep the interest alive.

I think this is a good point. What is the seed that gets placed in someones mind early on?

Long time ago I saw a Prowler and fell over at the price and said no way - but still thought it was one of the coolest cars. I also saw the Viper and said Wow I would love one of those, but knew it was way out of reach. Now I have both many years later - BUT the seed of desire was planted and it grew. For some of us when we became better off financially and can afford a dream, it happens.

A spark still has to be planted in our mind first, then the dream can evolve. I think this is what eventually drives prices up.

I see many kids and young adults playing racing games (like Forza) and are really into cars. Some of the games top cars are Ferrari's, Vipers and the Ultima GTR (the seed is being planted). When these kids grow up they very well could be buyers of their dreams cars.

I have had a dream of building an Ultima GTR for quite a while (after seeing it break so many automotive world records), I just ordered its newer model the Evolution. The cycle continues............

23366


I truly believe the Vipers will grow in price in the future.

The Viper is the desire of many kids and adults alike.

[ddominator1]

Not at all brother... excited yes.. ego.
. No... calm... if u knew me hardly!!! just Would like some practical and believable valuation, which is probably hard to do at.this point on arguably one of the most popular limited edition out there. Whether .."IT'S A DODGE OR NOT" has no bearing on anything related to a valuation thread and sounds like you might be a pessimist with higher values of A DODGE Down the road?
.
We get it....you bought one. Congrats. Now practice not becoming that guy who has to pump up his own ego in every post. It's a Dodge. Stay calm.

[dewilmoth]

I think this is a good point. What is the seed that gets placed in someones mind early on?

Long time ago I saw a Prowler and fell over at the price and said no way - but still thought it was one of the coolest cars. I also saw the Viper and said Wow I would love one of those, but knew it was way out of reach. Now I have both many years later - BUT the seed of desire was planted and it grew. For some of us when we became better off financially and can afford a dream, it happens.

A spark still has to be planted in our mind first, then the dream can evolve. I think this is what eventually drives prices up.

I see many kids and young adults playing racing games (like Forza) and are really into cars. Some of the games top cars are Ferrari's, Vipers and the Ultima GTR (the seed is being planted). When these kids grow up they very well could be buyers of their dreams cars.

I have had a dream of building an Ultima GTR for quite a while (after seeing it break so many automotive world records), I just ordered its newer model the Evolution. The cycle continues............

23366


I truly believe the Vipers will grow in price in the future.

The Viper is the desire of many kids and adults alike.

Woah, didn't know Ultima builds a new model of the GTR. I saw one in the flesh at the USGP in 2007, and I've lusted after them ever since. I will definitely own one at some point. Can you point me to a thread with more details on yours?

[Policy Limits]

Not at all brother... excited yes.. ego.
. No... calm... if u knew me hardly!!! just Would like some practical and believable valuation, which is probably hard to do at.this point on arguably one of the most popular limited edition out there. Whether .."IT'S A DODGE OR NOT" has no bearing on anything related to a valuation thread and sounds like you might be a pessimist with higher values of A DODGE Down the road?
.
How dare you discuss value on a value analysis thread!
Certain attempts to express excitement about your new toy will be attacked on here by some. Lots of jealousy (not from jon) and attitude and from people whom either don't even own a gen V, or an ACR or a viper at all. Don't dim your light because it's shining brightly in someone else's eyes.

[ddominator1]

Gotcha :) it's all good.. u and Jon have your opinions and I have mine.. that's what a democracy is all about..right! I certainly would however love to hear some positive feedback on ACR/TA and opinions on valuation :) my light is shining bright.. lol
How dare you discuss value on a value analysis thread!
Certain attempts to express excitement about your new toy will be attacked on here by some. Lots of jealousy (not from jon) and attitude and from people whom either don't even own a gen V, or an ACR or a viper at all. Don't dim your light because it's shining brightly in someone else's eyes.

[SnakeWatching]

Woah, didn't know Ultima builds a new model of the GTR. I saw one in the flesh at the USGP in 2007, and I've lusted after them ever since. I will definitely own one at some point. Can you point me to a thread with more details on yours?

Sure, here it is:

https://driveviper.com/forums/threads/17275-New-Ultima-Evolution

[SharpMan]

These would make incredible posters!

2340523406

[Policy Limits]

Beautiful! !

[porsche2viper]

If you're looking for one, there's one for sale @ sticker. I saw it today. ;) http://www.papascdjct.com/new-inventory/index.htm?search=viper&saveFacetState=true&lastFacetInteracted= http://www.chrysler.com/hostd/windowsticker/getWindowStickerPdf.do?vin=1C3BDEDZ8HV500266

For all thevalue watchers, a dealer in dearborn,MI had a gtr-s listed online for 10k under msrp....sold in a few days....

[Track Pack]

I personally think the special editions will hold value very well. I decided to build a new 1/1 TA 2.0 red with white stripes. ( fell in love with Viper when I saw and bought my first: '02 FE GTS). I don't expect mine will fare as well as the special editions. Was very very tempted on the dealer edition and would have Def bought a TA/ACR if had known. These cars are truly special (all Vipers) and I believe will be of high value down the road.

[Angleiron]

Guess it is happening sooner than later! :dropdev:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2017-Dodge-Viper-GTC-Snakeskin-Edition-9-/292037948704?forcerrptr=true&hash=item43fed17520:g:g0IAAOSwx6pYsP8O&item=292037948704

[Policy Limits]

Holy moly. That's not even the ACR version.

[Donato]

Ha! A good litmus test to the current Viper market perception, $125k starting bid with 4 days left and 0 bids, $300k “Buy It Now”. What will the future of the Viper market bring...

:fpopcorn:

[ViperJon]

I wouldn't want that for invoice pricing.

[Murpowa]

Bottom line, buyers can ask whatever they want, does not mean they'll sell.

Remember, there will always be something bigger and better. We do not know what the future holds but I can tell you, horsepower and track time wars are alive and well in the auto industry. History repeats itself and that tells us people will always lust for the next best thing.

Also, pending any short term correction in the economy, I believe we are near a 'top' as far as auto values have gone at some of the big auctions. Not to say they won't head higher long down the road, but I'm confident they will not continue to climb at the rate they have been. Some of the reasons why have already been explained in this thread.

[ACRSNK]

For all thevalue watchers, a dealer in dearborn,MI had a gtr-s listed online for 10k under msrp....sold in a few days....

What is a GTR-S? Probably not worth as much as a GTS-R as I don't see any dealer letting one of those go for $10K under MSRP. You're going to have to prove that one buddy, otherwise I call BS.

[porsche2viper]

I have no reason to lie, dealer on telegraph Road I remember specifically because my uncle lived in that area for a while.The listing was taken down as it sold, I called them to confirm and they said they were willing to take 10,000 off MSRP, as much as I like the Viper but plain old generation fives gts's with under 5000 miles are in the 80s.... i've seen to ACRs go through auction for 15,000 off MSRP with limited Miles, I want to see values rise but I think we will take a small dip first and then Climb

[OneofOneViper]

I have no reason to lie, dealer on telegraph Road I remember specifically because my uncle lived in that area for a while.The listing was taken down as it sold, I called them to confirm and they said they were willing to take 10,000 off MSRP, as much as I like the Viper but plain old generation fives gts's with under 5000 miles are in the 80s.... i've seen to ACRs go through auction for 15,000 off MSRP with limited Miles, I want to see values rise but I think we will take a small dip first and then Climb

Whether you're telling the truth or not doesn't matter whatsoever. It's 1 car---a one off case as best. Vipers are selling all day long for MSRP or more brand new currently. If someone got a deal, then great they got a deal but the dealer is an idiot and just lost every penny he sold it under MSRP and then some. They wouldn't have even had to wait longer than they currently did if it only took a couple days. All they had to do was list it publicly so it was easy to find on the internet and it would have been sold in less than a week at MSRP no doubt about it. Maybe it would take longer if trying to sell over MSRP but that's about it.

[ACRSNK]

I have no reason to lie, dealer on telegraph Road I remember specifically because my uncle lived in that area for a while.The listing was taken down as it sold, I called them to confirm and they said they were willing to take 10,000 off MSRP, as much as I like the Viper but plain old generation fives gts's with under 5000 miles are in the 80s.... i've seen to ACRs go through auction for 15,000 off MSRP with limited Miles, I want to see values rise but I think we will take a small dip first and then Climb

I highly doubt any dealer is that dumb. Sorry bro...Still not buying it. Why not just post the exact name of the dealer so we can verify? I would like to buy a Dodge Demon from them with a similar discount.

[ViperSmith]

Bottom line, buyers can ask whatever they want, does not mean they'll sell.

Remember, there will always be something bigger and better. We do not know what the future holds but I can tell you, horsepower and track time wars are alive and well in the auto industry. History repeats itself and that tells us people will always lust for the next best thing.

Also, pending any short term correction in the economy, I believe we are near a 'top' as far as auto values have gone at some of the big auctions. Not to say they won't head higher long down the road, but I'm confident they will not continue to climb at the rate they have been. Some of the reasons why have already been explained in this thread.

Another 2008 style correcting in the market fun cars will be a bargain for the patient folks.

[Boosted Motorsports]

Here is an article relative to that silly statement that "all cars will be autonomous soon and no self driven vehicles". Won't happen in this lifetime pal! :smilielol:

http://jalopnik.com/watch-tesla-autopilot-2-0-drive-like-a-drunk-old-man-1792785936
https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--3Z9VSCAJ--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/ks3ur1oct4m1tudxqjd4.gif

[ACRSNK]

Another 2008 style correcting in the market fun cars will be a bargain for the patient folks.

The way these things have been clearing off the lots, I highly doubt that the discounts, if any will be too significant. Dealers haven't exactly had a hard time selling the remaining Gen V's, especially the ACR's.

[ViperTony]

Guess it is happening sooner than later!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2017-Dodge-Viper-GTC-Snakeskin-Edition-9-/292037948704?forcerrptr=true&hash=item43fed17520:g:g0IAAOSwx6pYsP8O&item=292037948704

I hope he gets it. It will be a huge lift to Viper values everywhere. It's under-valued IMO.

[ViperSmith]

The way these things have been clearing off the lots, I highly doubt that the discounts, if any will be too significant. Dealers haven't exactly had a hard time selling the remaining Gen V's, especially the ACR's.


Just talking in reference to "collector" toys. Last correction people dumped fun cars to quickly free up cash. Another 2008 correction there will be a wealth of fun cars to pick up cheap that'll appreciate.

[ViperSmith]

Here is an article relative to that silly statement that "all cars will be autonomous soon and no self driven vehicles". Won't happen in this lifetime pal! :smilielol:

http://jalopnik.com/watch-tesla-autopilot-2-0-drive-like-a-drunk-old-man-1792785936
https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--3Z9VSCAJ--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/ks3ur1oct4m1tudxqjd4.gif

Disagree. The evolution of self driving tech has been rapid so far. I think in 5 years it will be quite advanced from where it is today. My next non-fun car will be the tesla with full self driving capability.

[Donato]

There are several 2017 Viper ACRs on eBay in the $150k or best offer range. I think I'd rather own two of the ACRs instead of the Snakeskin green Viper GTC for the "Buy It Now" of $300k and I don't care how rare the owner thinks it is. I would doubt it even gets a bid over the reserve.

It reminds me of a local 2009 Snakeskin green Areo Coupe the dealer states is "Very rare one of a kind!" and they were asking a $15k premium over market value. It's been sitting for months now and the dealer dropped it $5k and it's still sitting there..

[porsche2viper]

Telegraph dodge, deal of century, i verified tonight.....listed at cars.com....it makes sense if the wanted to move a $145,000 asset quickly to free up some capital...i agree a 2008 scenario will free up some nice collectible cars for the cheap

[Policy Limits]

Gastman is keeping three: his 92 with no miles (still 1/4 century later) his Gen IV dealer edition ACR black with plum stripes no miles and number 11 of 11 god bless the u-s-a no miles. I want his garage in ten years to supplement the old 401 (k). Sips tea...walks away...

[ACRSNK]

Telegraph dodge, deal of century, i verified tonight.....listed at cars.com....it makes sense if the wanted to move a $145,000 asset quickly to free up some capital...i agree a 2008 scenario will free up some nice collectible cars for the cheap

Not sure what you verified bud, but if its the same Telegraph Dodge dealer that I just called, they are not, nor have they ever been a Viper certified dealer. They also do not have nor have they had any Vipers for sale at their dealership, so either the ad you saw was bogus, or you are just making sh!$$ up. I can see + $10K on a GTS-R, but - $10K...not so much.

Don't believe everything you read on the interwebs.

[Boosted Motorsports]

Disagree. The evolution of self driving tech has been rapid so far. I think in 5 years it will be quite advanced from where it is today. My next non-fun car will be the tesla with full self driving capability.

Oh don't get me wrong there will definitely be autonomous cars everywhere with manual override but to say that there will not be any human operated vehicles is absurd.

[OneofOneViper]

Oh don't get me wrong there will definitely be autonomous cars everywhere with manual override but to say that there will not be any human operated vehicles is absurd.

Not as absurd as you might think. Time line can be argued but if you think the government won't regulate cars to the point where they eliminate human error by taking manually driven cars off the road without some sort of special permit then you're wrong. Real car enthusiasts are concerned for good reason that the manually driven car can be removed from the streets and all the autonomous manufactures need to do is prove that it's without question the safest option. At one point in time when Google released their data for the first million miles driven autonomous cars they had proven to have 10% of the accidents per mile that humans create and most of those accidents occur in parking lots and low speed maneuvering. Either way, I'm not saying the government will regulate human driving but it certainly could if it can be proven that it's definitively safer to have machines controlling the cars rather than humans. Recently I watched a show where Google commented on the government being archaic in thought due to them forcing regulation of having a steering wheel and a brake pedal in their autonomous cars to over ride the car should something go wrong. Google believes nothing should be available for the passenger to interfere with the car because their tests have shown that by far the majority of the accidents (I forget the percentage) occurred due to human intervention. Either way, government is slow to do anything so even if they regulate human cars can't be driven---I'm sure I'll be long gone and dead so I don't care.

[Boosted Motorsports]

Not as absurd as you might think. Time line can be argued but if you think the government won't regulate cars to the point where they eliminate human error by taking manually driven cars off the road without some sort of special permit then you're wrong. Real car enthusiasts are concerned for good reason that the manually driven car can be removed from the streets and all the autonomous manufactures need to do is prove that it's without question the safest option. At one point in time when Google released their data for the first million miles driven autonomous cars they had proven to have 10% of the accidents per mile that humans create and most of those accidents occur in parking lots and low speed maneuvering. Either way, I'm not saying the government will regulate human driving but it certainly could if it can be proven that it's definitively safer to have machines controlling the cars rather than humans. Recently I watched a show where Google commented on the government being archaic in thought due to them forcing regulation of having a steering wheel and a brake pedal in their autonomous cars to over ride the car should something go wrong. Google believes nothing should be available for the passenger to interfere with the car because their tests have shown that by far the majority of the accidents (I forget the percentage) occurred due to human intervention. Either way, government is slow to do anything so even if they regulate human cars can't be driven---I'm sure I'll be long gone and dead so I don't care.


Yeah I agree that the trend is towards autonomy but more importantly is the fact that we both agree that we will be long gone and dead when and if human operated vehicles are ever made extinct. Fears of hackers over-riding systems, glitches/bugs and software virus' will long delay the process of reaching fully autonomous vehicles.

[viper_eddie]

Gastman is keeping three: his 92 with no miles (still 1/4 century later) his Gen IV dealer edition ACR black with plum stripes no miles and number 11 of 11 god bless the u-s-a no miles. I want his garage in ten years to supplement the old 401 (k). Sips tea...walks away...

To each his own but in 10 years I would want my 10 years back so I could drive and enjoy the cars. I guess if you own a bunch of cars and rotate them that's great but I can only afford 1 fun car and it's not going to be sitting.

[Policy Limits]

Driving is way more fun than collecting for sure. The former is fun and the latter's like having a job. I tracked my first Gen V and had a blast.

[Resident Alien]

The ACR can appreciate significantly in less than 2 months. All that's needed is for all the owners (who haven't already done so) to donate to the fund for making the ACR Nurburgring champ again.

www.gofundme.com/take-back-the-ring-record

[Policy Limits]

MAKE ACR CHAMP AGAIN ....wait .....

[ek1]

If big hp NA engines go away, then he might not be too far off.

I think they already went away for the most part, at least in sports cars. Ferrari GT cars (Lusso & F12), Lamborghinis and Mustang GT350 are the only cars left on sale today. Viper is gone. Aston Martin switched to MB TT engines with DB11. I dont mention Corvette or Challenger/Charger because anything under 500hp is not really considered "big hp" these days. That does not mean any Viper will ever reach $500K. There is an extra zero in there.

[ek1]

There is no Gen 6 coming. It's over.

I would not be shocked if FCA reuses the Guilia platform to make some sort of a 2-door and call it a Viper. They are in this to make money. They have done this in the past, even recently. Does slapping a "Charger Daytona" name on a souped up sedan ring a bell?

[ViperJon]

I would not be shocked if FCA reuses the Guilia platform to make some sort of a 2-door and call it a Viper. They are in this to make money. They have done this in the past, even recently. Does slapping a "Charger Daytona" name on a souped up sedan ring a bell?

It will be back within five years or less. Modern, high tech and fast. Car manufacturers never let an iconic nameplate lie dormant for long.

[Donato]

It will be back within five years or less. Modern, high tech and fast. Car manufacturers never let an iconic nameplate lie dormant for long.

Yes, just like when Nissan CEO Carlos Ghosn brought back the GTR!

[uberpube]

Yes, just like when Nissan CEO Carlos Ghosn brought back the GTR!
You mean actually created a whole new car named after a sub model. Be like bringing back a Viper like car just called GTS. The original "gtr" was a Skyline, the modern Skyline is a FM chassis based car.

[Donato]

Maybe not apples to apples in semantics but you know what I mean. It's possible, all it takes is a new CEO with a passion to bring back the Viper on a whole new platform that's high-tech, modern and fast, just like the new Nissan CEO did with the Skyline. That's kind of what I was thinking in the context of the GTR.

[Policy Limits]

Thats kinda what Ralph Gilles did with the gen V. He was so excited about the rebirth of the snake. Unfortunately the purists didn't share the excitement and the car never got the respect it deserved until it's final production year. Better late than never I suppose.

To be fair, the launch, marketing, pricing, quality control, certain suppliers and dealership servicing connection all failed to be on point. Flagship or not, it needs to make good business sense to exist and it hasn't overall. Plus, regulations like side air bags, more difficult emissions and carb standards, etc will make rebirth near impossible. This is the last naturally aspirated V10 with a stick. Enjoy it.

[Donato]

In my mind I was thinking of a completely new platform, a Viper that's something like the mid-engine twin-turbo Viper V10 GTA Spano.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTA_Spano

[Policy Limits]

If that occurs it won't adversely effect the premise of this thread. In fact, it would probably reinforce the idea that values of the current models would soar.

Consumers want flappy paddles and cupholders. That's what Porsche is for. I say let it die with dignity, go out on top with production of the ACR Extreme and don't look back.

[redrichard]

Convertibles will be the rarest muscle cars ;)

[Donato]

I would agree if Viper production comes to an end. However if the Viper is reborn on something like the GTA Spano mid-rear Viper V10 twin-turbo platform and looks something like the image below I wouldn't expect previous Viper generations to soar in value any more than I expect values of the C7 Z06 to soar when the C8 Z06 comes out.

How would you like to pulling up to the fueling station in that bad boy :D:D

[Policy Limits]

Thing is Ford has reached hyper car status with the rebirth of the GT in eco boost form. Annnndd 10 year old manual transmission Heritage Editions still go for 1/2 mill notwithstanding that fact. Just sayin

[Patentlaw]

Why would Dodge try to sell a car in the hundreds of thousands of dollar level when they can't sell them for 80 thousand?
Remember all the "new" owners that were supposedly going to buy the Viper when Gen V came out? That did not materialize.
I would think that they would be in for some difficulty if they did that.

The flip side of the coin, however, is how well the Demon sells.
If the price is inflated (compared to the base car) and they sell a bunch, then there might be a market.
Wait and see, I guess.

[commandomatt]

It will be back within five years or less. Modern, high tech and fast. Car manufacturers never let an iconic nameplate lie dormant for long.

I agree with this. Especially since its getting a ton of attention as this generation is ending. If/when it returns, it will be in a much better position than it was in 2013. They will be able to use some of the current momentum, even years from now.

There will be tons of ACRE's tearing up the tracks in the next few years, so even though the production is ending....the cars will make an impact and create excitement

Yes, the new Viper will have a different platform. I think that is something no one can argue

[Policy Limits]

Why would Dodge try to sell a car in the hundreds of thousands of dollar level when they can't sell them for 80 thousand?
Remember all the "new" owners that were supposedly going to buy the Viper when Gen V came out? That did not materialize.
I would think that they would be in for some difficulty if they did that.

The flip side of the coin, however, is how well the Demon sells.
If the price is inflated (compared to the base car) and they sell a bunch, then there might be a market.
Wait and see, I guess.

You nailed it.

[OneofOneViper]

Why would Dodge try to sell a car in the hundreds of thousands of dollar level when they can't sell them for 80 thousand?
Remember all the "new" owners that were supposedly going to buy the Viper when Gen V came out? That did not materialize.
I would think that they would be in for some difficulty if they did that.

The flip side of the coin, however, is how well the Demon sells.
If the price is inflated (compared to the base car) and they sell a bunch, then there might be a market.
Wait and see, I guess.

They don't have to sell 20,000 cars like Corvette, or even 600+ like the current viper. If they increased the performance of the car and sold it for 400k+, they wouldn't have any problems selling a limited production run of 200 cars a year similar to what Ford GT is doing, and they wouldn't lose all that money they do on the current viper. With only 200 cars being made, you'd have collectors from around the world clamoring to to buy one of the new vipers in addition to those in the US that just want the new viper. It would be the same situation as the the Ford GT again. Sold out long before a car ever rolls across the plant.

[PkB2014]

I agree with this. Especially since its getting a ton of attention as this generation is ending. If/when it returns, it will be in a much better position than it was in 2013. They will be able to use some of the current momentum, even years from now.

There will be tons of ACRE's tearing up the tracks in the next few years, so even though the production is ending....the cars will make an impact and create excitement

Yes, the new Viper will have a different platform. I think that is something no one can argue

A ton of attention? I went to get my initial inspection and the mechanic didn't realize they started making the Viper again. I had to inform him that it was being discontinued again and this was the last year. The marketing of the Viper might really be the biggest fail of this generation. :(

[swexlin]

A ton of attention? I went to get my initial inspection and the mechanic didn't realize they started making the Viper again. I had to inform him that it was being discontinued again and this was the last year. The marketing of the Viper might really be the biggest fail of this generation. :(

Tend to agree. Most non-car people who ask me (say, at a gas station) have no clue what it is.

[commandomatt]

A ton of attention? I went to get my initial inspection and the mechanic didn't realize they started making the Viper again. I had to inform him that it was being discontinued again and this was the last year. The marketing of the Viper might really be the biggest fail of this generation. :(

So you talked to 1 guy that didn't know about the Viper being back and based on that, you say that the car isn't getting attention right now ? If 'your guy' reads any magazines or follows automotive news on the web, he would know.

FCA marketing has nothing to do with the current interest in the car. This is driven by press, current owners, new owners and real life performance results

There is no question that the Viper is getting more attention now then it has in years. Just about every car magazine is talking about the ACRE and the track records it has set and the fact that production is ending, Viper sales were up 20+ % last month and dealers are selling cars not even completed.

[commandomatt]

Tend to agree. Most non-car people who ask me (say, at a gas station) have no clue what it is.

Interesting observation.

So you are saying that "most non car people" don't know about the Viper ? Do those same people know about the new rear engine Vette, the new FGT, the 918, the new McLarens etc ??

Why on earth does it matter what non-car people think or know ? They would never consider buying a car like this

Do you think that gear heads, interested in what's available on the market right now know ? Dont you think that this is a bit more important than what Joe, driving a Honda Civic, tells you when he sees your car at a gas station ?

[OneofOneViper]

So you talked to 1 guy that didn't know about the Viper being back and based on that, you say that the car isn't getting attention right now ? If 'your guy' reads any magazines or follows automotive news on the web, he would know.

FCA marketing has nothing to do with the current interest in the car. This is driven by press, current owners, new owners and real life performance results

There is no question that the Viper is getting more attention now then it has in years. Just about every car magazine is talking about the ACRE and the track records it has set and the fact that production has ended, Viper sales were up 20+ % last month and dealers are selling cars not even completed.

I'm sorry but I have to agree with the previous post that Dodge and FCA has been terrible with advertising the viper. I once went to a high school a couple years ago to visit my friend (who is a teacher) and we were talking when he brought up one of my Gen 2 vipers in the discussion. One of the kids said "what is the viper". Then other kids chimed in and no one knew what a viper was. My friend tried to explain to him that it's the most bad ass car that america makes when all of them argued he didn't know what he was talking about and everyone thought the Camaro was the most bad ass car that America makes now.

out of 30+ kids, no one had ever even heard of a viper. I know it's seems like that can't be possible, but the reality is if you're not a car guy the chances of you even knowing what a viper is let alone ever seeing one is slim to none.

I converted every one of those 30 sons of **** by the way. The next day I promised to bring my car after school. Did a few spirited driving rounds in the parking lot and years later every one of them dream of owning a viper now.

[Scott_in_fl]

Why would Dodge try to sell a car in the hundreds of thousands of dollar level when they can't sell them for 80 thousand?
Remember all the "new" owners that were supposedly going to buy the Viper when Gen V came out? That did not materialize.
I would think that they would be in for some difficulty if they did that.

The flip side of the coin, however, is how well the Demon sells.
If the price is inflated (compared to the base car) and they sell a bunch, then there might be a market.
Wait and see, I guess.

This is the key. It's not just about producing a fast car. It's about developing a brand that is attractive to buyers with $400k to spend on a car. FCA has Ferrari, Maserati, Alfa, etc. to do that with. Dodge and Chrysler are value brands. Walk into a Dodge dealership and then walk into a Ferrari dealership to see what I mean :)

Ford has been the only "value" brand to do this right and it took a long time. When the original FGT came out in 2005-2006, the dealership experience was a big part of the reason why cars were sitting after the initial euphoria (and they were only trying to sell a $135k car). Ford did everything they could to try to change that perception and eventually rebuilt the entire brand. A big part of the rebuild was to re-design every single vehicle in their lineup between 2010 and 2014. Every vehicle is now very credible internationally and their SVT line is amazing (GT350, Raptor, Focus RS). This lead-up is what they needed to be able to create a bespoke program and market a car for $400k in the NFGT.

If Dodge is going to do something similar, then great. But, they better get started now if they want to change the brand perception enough to entice the big money buyers. It took Ford more than 10 years to do it. Dodge can start by scrapping all of those crappy looking minivans right now and hopefully in 10 years they will be in a position to introduce a world beating car the right way.

[commandomatt]

I'm sorry but I have to agree with the previous post that Dodge and FCA has been terrible with advertising the viper. I once went to a high school a couple years ago to visit my friend (who is a teacher) and we were talking when he brought up one of my Gen 2 vipers in the discussion. One of the kids said "what is the viper". Then other kids chimed in and no one knew what a viper was. My friend tried to explain to him that it's the most bad ass car that america makes when all of them argued he didn't know what he was talking about and everyone thought the Camaro was the most bad ass car that America makes now.

out of 30+ kids, no one had ever even heard of a viper. I know it's seems like that can't be possible, but the reality is if you're not a car guy the chances of you even knowing what a viper is let alone ever seeing one is slim to none.

I converted every one of those 30 sons of **** by the way. The next day I promised to bring my car after school. Did a few spirited driving rounds in the parking lot and years later every one of them dream of owning a viper now.

I seem to have a really hard time getting my point across.

I don't argue that the marketing from FCA has been ridiculously poor. That is pretty agreeable by most

What I am saying is that the Viper is currently getting more positive press and attention than it has in many years. This attention is being absorbed by car enthusiasts and people that were not considering a Viper before, are now buying one

Your "30 + kids" you talked to a few years ago do not fit into the demographics that are buying these cars right now. Again, when someone is in the market for a car in this particular segment, they know about the Viper

So the gear heads know about this car. Its ending production on a high note (not just fading away silently) and that is why I believe that if/when the Viper name plate resurfaces a few years from now, those that are checking it out right now, will be paying attention

[swexlin]

Interesting observation.

So you are saying that "most non car people" don't know about the Viper ? Do those same people know about the new rear engine Vette, the new FGT, the 918, the new McLarens etc ??

Why on earth does it matter what non-car people think or know ? They would never consider buying a car like this

Do you think that gear heads, interested in what's available on the market right now know ? Dont you think that this is a bit more important than what Joe, driving a Honda Civic, tells you when he sees your car at a gas station ?

I was just making a comment, sheesh. Jump down my 'effin throat. I'm out of this conversation...

[PkB2014]

I seem to have a really hard time getting my point across.

I don't argue that the marketing from FCA has been ridiculously poor. That is pretty agreeable by most

What I am saying is that the Viper is currently getting more positive press and attention than it has in many years. This attention is being absorbed by car enthusiasts and people that were not considering a Viper before, are now buying one

Your "30 + kids" you talked to a few years ago do not fit into the demographics that are buying these cars right now. Again, when someone is in the market for a car in this particular segment, they know about the Viper

So the gear heads know about this car. Its ending production on a high note (not just fading away silently) and that is why I believe that if/when the Viper name plate resurfaces a few years from now, those that are checking it out right now, will be paying attention

Sure "more" attention. I think "ton" was overstating it though. Selling 20 more in a month sounds better when using big percentages though "23% more!". All of us agree it is a shame the Viper is going away. And sure it is "selling out" this final year. But that's still only what? 300 more than the other years? Basically nothing by most car sales standards. I love the car and understand the excitement and enthusiasm. It is sometimes hard to believe that the reality is different than our (small) group’s feelings and thoughts. Maybe one day others will look back and realize what they missed and our cars will skyrocket in value!

[Boosted Motorsports]

SRT Tomahawk would be unreal if they produced it. Definitely inspired by the Viper and active Aero :D

http://www.carbodydesign.com/media/2015/06/SRT-Tomahawk-S-Vision-Gran-Turismo-3D-Render-03-720x405.jpg
http://www.carbodydesign.com/media/2015/06/SRT-Tomahawk-Vision-Gran-Turismo-Concept-Design-Sketch-02-720x1118.jpg
http://www.carbodydesign.com/media/2015/06/SRT-Tomahawk-GTS-R-Vision-Gran-Turismo-Pit-lane-3D-render-01-720x405.jpg
http://www.carbodydesign.com/media/2015/06/SRT-Tomahawk-Vision-Gran-Turismo-Concept-Design-Sketch-05-720x378.jpg



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP5ULeIEy6w

[PkB2014]

SRT Tomahawk would be unreal if they produced it. Definitely inspired by the Viper and active Aero :D


For sure! I drove the hell out of that in GT6! Bring it on!

[Scott_in_fl]

How do you get into it? Do they lower you down from up above?

[Donato]

I don’t think I’ve seen it mentioned that all the recent activity is on new Viper sales and because it’s a new Viper and (I don’t think everyone is paying cash for these things) banks are willing to finance at that new car value; 60, 72, 84 months and if you have solid credit and a good job a new Viper is within reach. Hell I could even get (if the wife would let me and there were any left) a new Viper but I don’t want a $1k+ car payment for the next 5-7 years. I can wait and save for 2 more years and purchase a low mile 13-15 SRT or GTS for cash, well that’s the plan anyway.

Now let’s say in 10 years your $150k Viper ACR inflates to a price of $300k and you think it’s a good time to sell. Unless someone had $300k cash laying around it will be very difficult to sell because banks will only finance at book value and the older the car is, the shorter the term, and that's if they even give you a loan at all. So the pool of possible Viper buyers will be much, much smaller than it is currently.

If future Viper prices skyrocket in to the stratospheres, they may only be obtainable and desirable to big money collectors. Possible future Viper actual “drivers” more than likely will direct their attention to the latest and greatest Viper or other Supercar platform and something they can finance.

[commandomatt]

I was just making a comment, sheesh. Jump down my 'effin throat. I'm out of this conversation...

Sorry......didnt mean to beat you up. Was just reacting to everyone talking about non-car people not knowing about the Viper. That is pretty obvious since they are....non-car people

[OneofOneViper]

Sorry......didnt mean to beat you up. Was just reacting to everyone talking about non-car people not knowing about the Viper. That is pretty obvious since they are....non-car people

No, it's not as obvious as you may like to make it out to be. When someone sees a Lamborghini going down the road, it doesn't matter who you are, 90% of people will know it's a Lamborghini and get excited. When you see a Viper driving down the road, it may be something like 20% but everyone still gets excited. These numbers are just made up of course, but that is what advertisement does for brand recognition. Non-car people and car people alike are drawn to the iconic design of a car. Vipers are just so few and far between that most of the time people see one they haven't seen them in movies, on TV, ads, etc... They see them when they drive down the road and they say "what the hell is that that is so cool".

And to say that only car people matter because they are the ones buying the cars is very short sighted. Demand NOW only matters for right now. Future demand matters more if you're talking about investments and many people who are not car people and later become car people or kids (much like ourselves who saw the 92 or 96 debut) fell in love with the car and had to have it later when they could afford it. I wasn't always a car person. The viper in 91 is what made me a car person. It just takes that single experience to start it.

[Donato]

I read through a tread yesterday from 2015 titled “What have you been told about your Viper?”. From what you guys/gals stated in the thread, public perception of the Viper is in the crapper for lack of a better term, and quite disheartening.

[ViperSRT]

So everyone knows the Lambo. But what advertising is there for high end cars for normal people. I sure do not see it outside of car mags and high end magazines. And of course movies. But most of that isn't direct advertisement. Where did Viper come up short, because it is obvious it did. I here so many time people thought they were not making them anymore. Must be a reason.

[OneofOneViper]

So everyone knows the Lambo. But what advertising is there for high end cars for normal people. I sure do not see it outside of car mags and high end magazines. And of course movies. But most of that isn't direct advertisement. Where did Viper come up short, because it is obvious it did. I here so many time people thought they were not making them anymore. Must be a reason.

Advertising is not always obvious. How do you think the Camaro become so popular when it debuted. Guess what---It was transformers the movie because it was in the movie. And the Audi R8, Ironman. Do you want me to list the hundreds of movies/tv shows/event modeling etc a Lamborghini has been in over the years? Manufactures know to advertise indirectly so you may be going to watch Ironman, but that cool car he was driving was the Audi R8 that everyone is talking about coming out of the movie.

[swexlin]

Sorry......didnt mean to beat you up. Was just reacting to everyone talking about non-car people not knowing about the Viper. That is pretty obvious since they are....non-car people

Understood, and thanks. Didn't mean to jump on you either. Been a long week....!

[Bleed viper]

So everyone knows the Lambo. But what advertising is there for high end cars for normal people. I sure do not see it outside of car mags and high end magazines. And of course movies. But most of that isn't direct advertisement. Where did Viper come up short, because it is obvious it did. I here so many time people thought they were not making them anymore. Must be a reason.

I was thinking the same, never once do I recall seeing a commercial for Lambo or Ferrari.

[Scott_in_fl]

I was thinking the same, never once do I recall seeing a commercial for Lambo or Ferrari.

As OneofOneViper states, their media buys are not direct ads. They do not need to do that. Lambo and Ferrari put their spending on things like luxury events, movies/celebrity use (think Paris Hilton, Gordon Ramsey), and other unique ways.

A LaFerrari costs one price for you and I, and another price if you are Christiano Ronaldo or Felippe Massa :)

[commandomatt]

No, it's not as obvious as you may like to make it out to be. When someone sees a Lamborghini going down the road, it doesn't matter who you are, 90% of people will know it's a Lamborghini and get excited. When you see a Viper driving down the road, it may be something like 20% but everyone still gets excited. These numbers are just made up of course, but that is what advertisement does for brand recognition. Non-car people and car people alike are drawn to the iconic design of a car. Vipers are just so few and far between that most of the time people see one they haven't seen them in movies, on TV, ads, etc... They see them when they drive down the road and they say "what the hell is that that is so cool".

And to say that only car people matter because they are the ones buying the cars is very short sighted. Demand NOW only matters for right now. Future demand matters more if you're talking about investments and many people who are not car people and later become car people or kids (much like ourselves who saw the 92 or 96 debut) fell in love with the car and had to have it later when they could afford it. I wasn't always a car person. The viper in 91 is what made me a car person. It just takes that single experience to start it.

Ok...it's pretty clear that we are just talking around each other and about 2 separate things.

If you read my post #199, and I quote (myself no less)

I agree with this. Especially since its getting a ton of attention as this generation is ending. If/when it returns, it will be in a much better position than it was in 2013. They will be able to use some of the current momentum, even years from now.

There will be tons of ACRE's tearing up the tracks in the next few years, so even though the production is ending....the cars will make an impact and create excitement

Yes, the new Viper will have a different platform. I think that is something no one can argue

So if you follow along the thread, you can see that I was responding to ViperJon talking about the Viper coming back into production. So all my post from there and on were falling back on that. In other words, I was not talking about future value at all....just about the Viper coming back in a few years with a different platform (whatever that may be). In this case, it does not matter what non-car people think (or recognize driving down the road) as the only ones that matter for its success are the ones that are in fact interested, and possibly in the market to buy in this segment, and they are car people

[OneofOneViper]

Ok...it's pretty clear that we are just talking around each other and about 2 separate things.

If you read my post #199, and I quote (myself no less)

I agree with this. Especially since its getting a ton of attention as this generation is ending. If/when it returns, it will be in a much better position than it was in 2013. They will be able to use some of the current momentum, even years from now.

There will be tons of ACRE's tearing up the tracks in the next few years, so even though the production is ending....the cars will make an impact and create excitement

Yes, the new Viper will have a different platform. I think that is something no one can argue

So if you follow along the thread, you can see that I was responding to ViperJon talking about the Viper coming back into production. So all my post from there and on were falling back on that. In other words, I was not talking about future value at all....just about the Viper coming back in a few years with a different platform (whatever that may be). In this case, it does not matter what non-car people think (or recognize driving down the road) as the only ones that matter for its success are the ones that are in fact interested, and possibly in the market to buy in this segment, and they are car people

Sorry it's a value thread so figured that was somehow behind most comments made here

[commandomatt]

Sorry it's a value thread so figured that was somehow behind most comments made here

I think it just got a little side tracked there on the last page. I certainly didn't help by taking in a different direction

Us 'OneOfOners' have to stick together you know. Especially against those 'Special Ed' guys !!:web_driver:

[ViperSRT]

Us OneOfOners have to stick together you know. Especially against those Special Edition guys !!:web_driver:

And TA Group need to stick together (which most are Oneofoners as well) especially against the numbered TA package guys.

[commandomatt]

And TA Group need to stick together (which most are Oneofoners as well) especially against the numbered TA package guys.

Awesome

[Drummerviper]

So everyone knows the Lambo. But what advertising is there for high end cars for normal people. I sure do not see it outside of car mags and high end magazines. And of course movies. But most of that isn't direct advertisement. Where did Viper come up short, because it is obvious it did. I here so many time people thought they were not making them anymore. Must be a reason.

Gen 3 forward

[Policy Limits]

If you think viper came up short with the Gen V ACR Extreme you need some help. Haha

[Scott_in_fl]

Any new Viper is going to have to be mass-appeal as it won't be able to count on this community as potential buyers (and even if it could, there are no numbers in it).

But, for the reasons mentioned in post #207, it also won't be a $400k car (and if it were, most of us wouldn't be buyers of that either), at least not until Dodge can significantly elevate the brand.

It likely won't be a $150k car either. If anything it needs to be priced competitively with Corvette again. In order to do that, you're not getting a bespoke engine or chassis, hand-built craftsmanship, or "1 of 1" special ordering options. If Corvette can't do it at that price point, then neither can Dodge.

Which all means that we're not seeing anything ever again that is similar to what we have now and any remaining new inventory is an absolute gift of an opportunity to get into this caliber of an automobile at this price. The reality is that Dodge should have really ended it in 2010. How Ralph and the gang convinced the bean counters to do a Gen V is beyond me.

Again, we're all super lucky that they did because they developed it into a world-beating car that blows everyone away when they see it. Once Viper is gone, where are you going to get something comparable for less than $250k? New Corvette is as close you'll likely get, and will likely look great and perform but there will be 30,000 copies each year. One caveat is if Corvette brings out the mid-engine vehicle as a separate $150k car and distinguishes it from the other models. That could create a low-volume option but GM is usually not interested in such things.

[Patentlaw]

I would agree with the others that if Dodge made the car 400k in price, there would be very few takers, at least on this forum. I am not going to pay the same amount as a nice house in my area for the car to go 0 to 60 .2 seconds faster or grips .05g more. I also think and have stated before that the weakest link in the entire driving chain is the driver. Most never come close to the driving capability that the car delivers. Other than paper bragging rights, I just don't see what the point is......

Viper has never been about having an unobtainable car. Thousands have been sold.

[ViperSRT]

If you think viper came up short with the Gen V ACR Extreme you need some help. Haha

Nope not at all. Just not everyone's cup of tea. Wing is a bit too extreme for me personally and the spring stiffness too much for my feeble back. But they look very good. I am very partial to the GTS-R though the Gastman Dealer Edition is a close second.

[Policy Limits]

2nd. LOL

[Drummerviper]

If you think viper came up short with the Gen V ACR Extreme you need some help. Haha

Great car just no esthetics after Gen 3 .

[Policy Limits]

Gen I cars are curvy. Can pick up a nice one for 40k. Tempted.

[Murpowa]

I don’t think I’ve seen it mentioned that all the recent activity is on new Viper sales and because it’s a new Viper and (I don’t think everyone is paying cash for these things) banks are willing to finance at that new car value; 60, 72, 84 months and if you have solid credit and a good job a new Viper is within reach. Hell I could even get (if the wife would let me and there were any left) a new Viper but I don’t want a $1k+ car payment for the next 5-7 years. I can wait and save for 2 more years and purchase a low mile 13-15 SRT or GTS for cash, well that’s the plan anyway.

Now let’s say in 10 years your $150k Viper ACR inflates to a price of $300k and you think it’s a good time to sell. Unless someone had $300k cash laying around it will be very difficult to sell because banks will only finance at book value and the older the car is, the shorter the term, and that's if they even give you a loan at all. So the pool of possible Viper buyers will be much, much smaller than it is currently.

If future Viper prices skyrocket in to the stratospheres, they may only be obtainable and desirable to big money collectors. Possible future Viper actual “drivers” more than likely will direct their attention to the latest and greatest Viper or other Supercar platform and something they can finance.

Yes, agreed. As I stated in my earlier post, seller's can ASK whatever their heart desires...does not mean they will sell. When there are no buyers, there are no buyers. FGT's are 300-500k, yet most have been sitting in showrooms for over a year and more.

It's like buying the market at the very top. Individuals paying half a mill for a vehicle thinking it will continue to appreciate is absurd. No one willingly wants to be holding a bag.

[Policy Limits]

Lol @ car payment. And Ford GT's are selling as listed.

[sadil]

Lol @ car payment. And Ford GT's are selling as listed.

Trolling must pay well!

[LABrit]

Lol @ car payment. And Ford GT's are selling as listed.

Nope.

[Policy Limits]

Trolling must pay well!

We have a twitter president. ..get with the times! Haha

[Murpowa]

Lol @ car payment. And Ford GT's are selling as listed.

Hmm, odd. Any site I've gone to (viper exchange, Fusion Luxury Motors, Elite Auto, etc) have had the same inventory of GTs since '15 and '16.

It's not simply specific to Ford either. Porsche and Mclarens arent flying off the used lot either...

[Policy Limits]

I've spoken to dealers whom have moved heritage edition cars at or near 1/2 mill. I believe one was goldcoast but could be mistaken. I certainly hope so as its great to see what's traditionally a depreciating asset turn into the opposite. Certainly hope it occurs on our beloved brand as the early builds in the fifth generation sure took a beating in depreciation.

[Bruce H.]

If I had bought one to sit in the garage like a trophy on a shelf I'd surely wish I had parked something else there instead if it didn't go up very substantially in value. On the other hand, those who enjoy the car well on the road and/or track will have very different expectations at resale time...and I'm confident they'll end up the happier ones.

A track buddy and I were discussing the purchase of one of our dream cars, the Ferrari 458 or 488. He thought he wouldn't track his, and I just wouldn't buy one if I wasn't willing to track mine and drive it when and where I wanted without regard for putting miles on it and the impact on value to some possible future owner. He might be willing to pay a premium for a barely driven example and I'd prefer one that had been driven at a little lower price given my intention to drive it. There will always be both types of buyers, but I sure think it's a far safer bet to invest in these cars to enjoy!

[LABrit]

I had a GT and know the market. They are selling at $235-265k. Heritage are more.

[Policy Limits]

I wish I bought one back when it was 140 k. They sat on lots unsold because it was only a Ford and for the same price you could've picked up a preowned ferrari instead. Sounds very familiar indeed.

[LABrit]

At the prices I listed above the car still represents value IMO.

[Racingswh]

I wish I bought one back when it was 140 k. They sat on lots unsold because it was only a Ford and for the same price you could've picked up a preowned ferrari instead. Sounds very familiar indeed.

That's funny because that's exactly what one of my best friends did with a Heritage colors car. That's what he paid up at a dealer that had one and couldn't seem to get rid of it near Hazelton, PA.

Now it just sits under a cover and makes a really good place to pile car parts for cars he actually uses. I am actually not kidding.

I drove it a few years back and it was slow and had an exhaust leak. At the time we had a GTR making about 600 whp that would smash that Ford like it was tied to a stump.

[Policy Limits]

Here's another American car listed for 1/2 mill and it's not a Ford : http://www.fusionmotorco.com/vehicles/3/1971-plymouth-cuda-hemi-4-speed

[ACR Extreme]

That's funny because that's exactly what one of my best friends did with a Heritage colors car. That's what he paid up at a dealer that had one and couldn't seem to get rid of it near Hazelton, PA.

Now it just sits under a cover and makes a really good place to pile car parts for cars he actually uses. I am actually not kidding.

I drove it a few years back and it was slow and had an exhaust leak. At the time we had a GTR making about 600 whp that would smash that Ford like it was tied to a stump.

Is it Tim C.

[ACR Extreme]

at the prices i listed above the car still represents value imo.


lol