CCM brakes to Steel possible

[Dman]

Just wondering if we know if the ACR calipers are compatible with steel rotors/pads, in the event replacing worn out rotors ever becomes unavailable or cost prohibitive in the distant future. Thanks

[ViperPete]

I don't see why not.

You'd only extend the life of the caliper by doing that. Then the caliper isn't taking the brunt of heat anymore.

[SharpMan]

Callipers are but will require different pads I believe. In Porsche circles many track guys swap out the ceramic discs for steel and either sell the ceramics or keep them on a shelf.

[One Viper Bite]

Racing Brake already put together a cost effective conversion kit. A few members ordered the kit. http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/14657-Viper-Carbon-Ceramic-Converting-to-RB-Iron-Rotor

- - - Updated - - -

Racing Brake already put together a cost effective conversion kit. A few members ordered the kit. http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/14657-Viper-Carbon-Ceramic-Converting-to-RB-Iron-Rotor

[Dman]

Racing Brake already put together a cost effective conversion kit. A few members ordered the kit. http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/14657-Viper-Carbon-Ceramic-Converting-to-RB-Iron-Rotor

- - - Updated - - -

Racing Brake already put together a cost effective conversion kit. A few members ordered the kit. http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/14657-Viper-Carbon-Ceramic-Converting-to-RB-Iron-Rotor

Thanks!! Awesome info.

[1of1TA1.0]

If you don't go with the Racing Brake you will have to go with the standard Gen V rear knuckles. Anyone want a complete conversion kit I have one :) Including the black calipers and the Brembo rotors.

[09 ACR]

I have replaced mine with steel rotors. everything works great with steel rotors.

MY CCM rotors are for sale in the classifieds $5900.00

[1of1TA1.0]

If you kept your stock calipers and pads you are missing surface area on your rotor, just FYI. The Caliper is spaced out 5mm more. Probably hard to tell the difference but I would imagine the pads will develop a ridge on them.

[09 ACR]

If you kept your stock calipers and pads you are missing surface area on your rotor, just FYI. The Caliper is spaced out 5mm more. Probably hard to tell the difference but I would imagine the pads will develop a ridge on them.

Everything was left stock Girodisc has made a bolt on set, they are great. they were custom made for the ACR's

[1of1TA1.0]

Gotcha, I thought you were using stock parts. My bad

[Simms]

22152

Call ViperExchange. These may be available now.

[FLATOUT]

Thanks Simms,

Yes they are done at Girodisc, and this is the same setup Ralph has been running on his ACR for quite sometime now. They will be distributed through ViperExchange and we should have them here and ready to ship before the end of the month.

Andy

[Dman]

Thanks Simms,

Yes they are done at Girodisc, and this is the same setup Ralph has been running on his ACR for quite sometime now. They will be distributed through ViperExchange and we should have them here and ready to ship before the end of the month.

Andy

Was going to text the question to you but thought I'd leave you alone for one day, and of course, here you are with a supplied solution, lol. Thanks yet again!!

[FLATOUT]

Was going to text the question to you but thought I'd leave you alone for one day, and of course, here you are with a supplied solution, lol. Thanks yet again!!

This one has been on the to do list for awhile, and I know that folks on the board have pinged me about them a few times. I am working on getting everything completed on my end so we can move forward.

Andy

[SharpMan]

This one has been on the to do list for awhile, and I know that folks on the board have pinged me about them a few times. I am working on getting everything completed on my end so we can move forward.

Andy

Sorry if I missed it but have the rear steel rotors been sorted out?

[FSTENUF]

Everything was left stock Girodisc has made a bolt on set, they are great. they were custom made for the ACR's

I just ordered 2 complete sets from them this week. Great product and great people to work with.

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

Sorry if I missed it but have the rear steel rotors been sorted out?

Yes Indeed. GiroDisc is right here in WA, and PartsRack has their "Steel" option rotor and pad packages IN STOCK on on the shelf for immediate sale.

Inaugural Special: FREE SHIPPING USA (48 States) and $75-off CANADA shipping

Email me, JonB@PartsRack.com Thank You

[est8esq]

After all these years, I'm still not sure what it is about the motorsports world that seems to attract the worst of miscommunications (this is being extremely polite)?

Coming off of two cars with same brakes prior to this ACR carrying identical sku's from Brembo, I had a good idea what to anticipate from these CCMs and began a search for steel replacements over a year ago.

We all know, luv and TRUST Ralph, so whatever he does I'm doing. Accordingly, I've been patiently waiting to hear when GiroDisk was ready for their prototype to be sold since early fall of last year? Upon learning that they were working out a deal w/ "nameless exclusive distributor", I've been patiently waiting since.

Unfortunately, here we are in 2017, my car's already shipped south (Winterfest, here we come, Whoot, whooooot) stuck in purgatory, figuring out what to do next? I've got extra pads, but as all should know by now the CCM rotors lose mass with time and lose ability to dissipate heat, wearing pads at increased intervals. So, not even sure how long I'm able to run? Not to mention that I'd prefer to have had my car set up while up north, PRIOR to starting the new season.

I guess it's not a big deal, but I contacted GiroDisk directly and there's NO NEED TO WAIT. Prototypes are now in full production and you can buy DIRECT. Wish I knew that months ago, so I could have been better prepared to run the southern circuit. The cost for rotors and pads are roughly $3400? (Going off memory).

I never lament anyone making money, but it's aggravating when "failed communication" (again, I'm being nice) causes inconveniences to the trusting end users...

[Racingbrake]

RacingBrake iron conversion kits have been shipping...

http://www.racingbrake.com/Dodge-Viper-Carbon-Ceramic-Converting-to-RB-Iron-R-p/dod-irk-03.htm

[stradman]

Just out of interest, can anyone tell me if any of the steel brake replacements perform exactly the same as the CCM in terms of stopping power, fade etc?

[Arizona Vipers]

Just out of interest, can anyone tell me if any of the steel brake replacements perform exactly the same as the CCM in terms of stopping power, fade etc?

If they did Dodge wouldn't have added the expense of the carbon brakes. Same with the Z06, ZR1, and all the hyper car manufacturers wouldn't use them either.
I've tracked my '13 track pack car with factory StopTechs and my ACR and there's no comparison. I love the ACR brakes so much I've put them on my '13.

[stradman]

If they did Dodge wouldn't have added the expense of the carbon brakes. Same with the Z06, ZR1, and all the hyper car manufacturers wouldn't use them either.
I've tracked my '13 track pack car with factory StopTechs and my ACR and there's no comparison. I love the ACR brakes so much I've put them on my '13.
Well I kinda thought that would be the case. So I don't really understand why people would want to change to "lower" tech hardware, apart from price of consuming pads and rotors which I understand to a point. Having said I don't understand the sense of going to the trouble of forking out and buying a 130k car for its superior performance, only then to blunt its effectiveness(even if it is slight) by putting on lesser hardware.
Having said that this would seem to apply to people regularly tracking their car I suppose. In that case, doesn't the old mantra apply that says if you wanna play then you have to pay, no?

[One Viper Bite]

Just out of interest, can anyone tell me if any of the steel brake replacements perform exactly the same as the CCM in terms of stopping power, fade etc?

Carbon Ceramic Rotors almost never add stopping power. Stopping power is determined mostly by the pistons, the surface area of the rotor and tire grip. The CCRs mainly excel at dissipating heat. It's pretty much impossible to make them fade where as no matter how good the steel rotors are, they will begin to fade after repeated hard usage. CCRs also help remove unsprung weight which can sometimes help stopping power but it's never that significant.

[est8esq]

Well I kinda thought that would be the case. So I don't really understand why people would want to change to "lower" tech hardware, apart from price of consuming pads and rotors which I understand to a point. Having said I don't understand the sense of going to the trouble of forking out and buying a 130k car for its superior performance, only then to blunt its effectiveness(even if it is slight) by putting on lesser hardware.
Having said that this would seem to apply to people regularly tracking their car I suppose. In that case, doesn't the old mantra apply that says if you wanna play then you have to pay, no?

You're assuming linear cost/benefits and it's not. Matter of fact, not even close. Not to patronize, but I'm not convinced people that can light cigars with $100 "ben franklin's" will just because they can?

The CCM's stopping is in my opinion only marginally better than steel (at least on other cars. Have yet to compare on ACR). But the cost is astronomical. Rotors alone PER CORNER on this ACR are about $5500 vs. $2,791.80 for ALL FOUR CORNERS from RB?? That's past significant to plain nuts.

The irony of CCM's is if used under normal conditions, ie never tracked, but street use only then they'll probably last the life of the car with no brake dust, to boot. Making them the bargain of the century.

What I do know about the CCM's is that they take a lot more heat for them to bite and until then, they have virtually NO bite at threshold. (Learned the hard way as I almost ended up sitting in the front seat of car ahead of me equally as I inked myself). Since this car was produced for the track, financial resources or not I believe there exists a level of pragmatism that supersedes fiscal argument.

[stradman]

Well I have to say that the rotors are available at significantly less than what you are suggesting. Moreover it is also possible to refurbish them for a fraction of that. So in terms of cost benefit CCM rotors are not as outlandish as suggested.

[Racingbrake]

Yes, $2,791.8 includes 4 rotors* plus one car set of performance XT910 street pad, so highly affordable.

If you are conscious about CCB replacement cost you should never ignore the expense of "brake pads" as an average track user shall consume ~ 3-4 sets of pads per front rotors, and 5-6 sets per rear rotors and the brake pads are not cheap ($1479 per car set retail), so brake pads shall end up costing more than rotors, also the supply was short as I have heard (may improve now).

*RacingBrake makes more CCB to iron conversion rotors than any competition and RB rotors are made for hardcore racing, voted by Corvette owners as the most durable rotors among all aftermarket makes.

[38D]

The CCM's stopping is in my opinion only marginally better than steel

While the stopping power delta may seem small, it's the reduction of unsprung weight that reall matters performance wise.

[est8esq]

While the stopping power delta may seem small, it's the reduction of unsprung weight that reall matters performance wise.

I'm not so sure about that?

While weight may in fact be less, I feel the horsepower and TORQUE, TORQUE and more TORQUE of the Viper mitigates any handicap benefit of lighter CCM's in the lower gears where it matters. This Viper doesn't know what unsprung weight is.

On the other hand, it certainly understands aero weight. May as well put a parachute behind this car above 130 mph. Can't pass older gen Porsche Caymans on straights.

Been dreaming about a motorized wing invention.

[Dman]

Yes, $2,791.8 includes 4 rotors* plus one car set of performance XT910 street pad, so highly affordable.

If you are conscious about CCB replacement cost you should never ignore the expense of "brake pads" as an average track user shall consume ~ 3-4 sets of pads per front rotors, and 5-6 sets per rear rotors and the brake pads are not cheap ($1479 per car set retail), so brake pads shall end up costing more than rotors, also the supply was short as I have heard (may improve now).

*RacingBrake makes more CCB to iron conversion rotors than any competition and RB rotors are made for hardcore racing, voted by Corvette owners as the most durable rotors among all aftermarket makes.

Thanks for your posts, all the info has been invaluable. The reasons you posted as well as others' posts are the reason for my original post/question. I'm trying to know options up front, I'm stuck between a TA 2.0 and an ACR on my next buy, and understanding brake maintenance and TCO on the CCMs is important to me. Although I have a race car and focus on race events now, I can easily see that if I do an ACR I could do far more track days than I do now and I know I'd be hard on those brakes. Also concerned about availability in near future and a few years out for pads, rotors, and options to convert to steel etc., and your info and some others' answers all my questions and then some. Thanks again !

[Viper Pit]

does this open up wheel options with the steel rotor set up? Say putting some sidewinder II's on there.

[38D]

While weight may in fact be less, I feel the horsepower and TORQUE, TORQUE and more TORQUE of the Viper mitigates any handicap benefit of lighter CCM's in the lower gears where it matters. This Viper doesn't know what unsprung weight is.

Unsprung weight helps handling. The lower the weight, the less spring you can run and still keep the wheel in contact with the pavement. It's all a system, with every bit helping the ACR have that planted feel, which in turn inspires the confidence to push to the limit.

[est8esq]

Unsprung weight helps handling. The lower the weight, the less spring you can run and still keep the wheel in contact with the pavement. It's all a system, with every bit helping the ACR have that planted feel, which in turn inspires the confidence to push to the limit.


You may in theory be right for other cars, but given this Viper's horsepower and TORQUE (did I mention this earlier?) and Bilstein adjustable shocks (to your additional point), anyone is really kidding themselves if they think it makes any sort of difference. Even if it did, I say again given the ridiculous short life of pads and rotors on CCM setup and costs, it makes ZERO sense to keep CCM on this car.

[stradman]

You may in theory be right for other cars, but given this Viper's horsepower and TORQUE (did I mention this earlier?) and Bilstein adjustable shocks (to your additional point), anyone is really kidding themselves if they think it makes any sort of difference. Even if it did, I say again given the ridiculous short life of pads and rotors on CCM setup and costs, it makes ZERO sense to keep CCM on this car.

Well to you, clearly. I disagree and believe they are more than worthwhile.....

[darbgnik]

It seems on other brand sites, the consensus is that CCM brakes are best for those guys that are searching for the perfect "dust free" pad.:rolleyes: And for street use, the last the life of the car. Seems there is no such consensus for track use. For sure they're better than steel, seems the question still unanswered is whether they are better enough to justify the cost of use? Everyone has an opinion on the subject...... well, except me, as I've never run them.

[Leadfoot]

I track my car about twice a month during the season. I just ordered the RB stainless conversion. I have never found the CCB options to be great for the track and I switched out the CCB's on my '11 GT3RS also. A great set of stainless rotors with good track pads will stop just as well as CCB rotors, will provide much better progressive braking feel, and can also be virtually fade free. The unsprung weight penalty might cost you .2 sec over a 2.5 mi circuit. Interestingly enough, the Lemans GT race cars run stainless rotors (as do many other race cars). The CCB's are a great marketing tool/profit center for the car companies, but for serious track work they are less than ideal in many situations. The surface of my CCB's deteriorated to the point of grinding up a new set of pads in ONE day of track use at Road Atlanta.

PS The build quality of the RB rotors looks very impressive. Really looking forward to trying them out in Feb!

[Racingswh]

I track my car about twice a month during the season. I just ordered the RB stainless conversion. I have never found the CCB options to be great for the track and I switched out the CCB's on my '11 GT3RS also. A great set of stainless rotors with good track pads will stop just as well as CCB rotors, will provide much better progressive braking feel, and can also be virtually fade free. The unsprung weight penalty might cost you .2 sec over a 2.5 mi circuit. Interestingly enough, the Lemans GT race cars run stainless rotors (as do many other race cars). The CCB's are a great marketing tool/profit center for the car companies, but for serious track work they are less than ideal in many situations. The surface of my CCB's deteriorated to the point of grinding up a new set of pads in ONE day of track use at Road Atlanta.

PS The build quality of the RB rotors looks very impressive. Really looking forward to trying them out in Feb!

Agreed. Not a fan. Wish that it did not have them. The Essex AP Racing Brakes on my Wife's car perform as well with better feel. That car is comparable in performance to my Viper ACR-E putting down lap times within a couple tenths of each other.

[Snorman]

RacingBrake iron conversion kits have been shipping...

http://www.racingbrake.com/Dodge-Viper-Carbon-Ceramic-Converting-to-RB-Iron-R-p/dod-irk-03.htm
Awesome!
I've ran RB products previously and have been very happy with the product and customer service.
S.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Interestingly enough, the Lemans GT race cars run stainless rotors (as do many other race cars).

The reason for this in most cases is sanctioning body regulations preventing teams from carbon rotors in an attempt to save cost where the racing isn't improved for the typical fan. This said, some series do run carbon rotors (IndyCar is one example).

[Racingbrake]

I track my car about twice a month during the season. I just ordered the RB stainless conversion. I have never found the CCB options to be great for the track and I switched out the CCB's on my '11 GT3RS also. A great set of stainless rotors with good track pads will stop just as well as CCB rotors, will provide much better progressive braking feel, and can also be virtually fade free. The unsprung weight penalty might cost you .2 sec over a 2.5 mi circuit. Interestingly enough, the Lemans GT race cars run stainless rotors (as do many other race cars). The CCB's are a great marketing tool/profit center for the car companies, but for serious track work they are less than ideal in many situations. The surface of my CCB's deteriorated to the point of grinding up a new set of pads in ONE day of track use at Road Atlanta.

PS The build quality of the RB rotors looks very impressive. Really looking forward to trying them out in Feb!


Our CCM brake development (rotor, pad, and complete system) has been geared around these two heavily tracked communities: Nissan GT-R (COTA) and Corvette ZR1 (Thunderrhill). As these repeated and numerous track tests, we continued our improvement on brake pad.

Recently we have discovered that our sintered pads, as it wears, can actually transfer a protective coating/film to the CCM disc surface and make up the pitting/void due to overheating, unlike conventional semi-metallic pads random "deposit" which is harmful to braking, this pad transfer of layer is uniform across the disc surface w/o any ill effect as semi-metallic. It can well be extending the rotor life. This observation was posted in GTR forum here.

http://www.gtrheritage.com/topic/6718-prototype-racingbrake-hybrid-ccmcarbon-pads/#entry117732

[mjorgensen]

I have had a bunch of inquiry's about the RB upgrades and conversions for my customers, there is a very informative link about the care and feeding of your ACR's CCB's at the bottom of this page if you would like to see detailed useful information.

http://www.woodhousemotorsports.com/dodge-viper-modifications/

[Werks]

Our CCM brake development (rotor, pad, and complete system) has been geared around these two heavily tracked communities: Nissan GT-R (COTA) and Corvette ZR1 (Thunderrhill). As these repeated and numerous track tests, we continued our improvement on brake pad.

Recently we have discovered that our sintered pads, as it wears, can actually transfer a protective coating/film to the CCM disc surface and make up the pitting/void due to overheating, unlike conventional semi-metallic pads random "deposit" which is harmful to braking, this pad transfer of layer is uniform across the disc surface w/o any ill effect as semi-metallic. It can well be extending the rotor life. This observation was posted in GTR forum here.

http://www.gtrheritage.com/topic/6718-prototype-racingbrake-hybrid-ccmcarbon-pads/#entry117732

That is what those rotors looked like after several hours worth of work to find and clean out each of the vent holes individually with a probe and then installing a set of Hawk DT70 pads (which are about the most abrasive pads cold that I could find) and doing a bunch of stop and goes in a parking lot to try and grind as much of the deposit off of the rotor surface as possible. Before all of that was done to the rotors that you pictured (which were mine), they looked like this:


22382

You can see the probe that I'm using to un-block all of the vent holes when I just started doing it around the inner section of the rotor.

22383

And here is another view as I made more progress finding and clearing the vent holes around the rotor, probe is visible on the mid left side.


As I told you imho the maximum operating temperature of your current friction compound is too low for real hardcore track use and I would limit it's use to intermediate level drivers. This deposit transfer I guess can be looked at as a benefit lol or you can look at it like I did and ask your self if a 3,000lb car with additional rotor cooling through big air ducts routed directly to the spindle were able to get a sintered pad so hot that it litteraly melts and smeared such a thick layer of pad material over the CCM rotor surface that it looked like an iron rotor, what is going to happen when that pad is put into a 3600lbs GTR with a good driver and no brake cooling? How about a ACR in the hands of a good driver????

[lmcgrew79]

I have had a bunch of inquiry's about the RB upgrades and conversions for my customers, there is a very informative link about the care and feeding of your ACR's CCB's at the bottom of this page if you would like to see detailed useful information.

http://www.woodhousemotorsports.com/dodge-viper-modifications/

According to brembo the track life is 1500-2000km or 932-1242 miles. That may be a bit low but you generally get 160 miles in a day on track with 2 hrs worth of driving time.