Why bleed the brakes!!!!

[pony23]

So I am working on upgrading the brakes on the car. Powder coated and rebuilt the calipers, stainless lines, new Hawk HPS pads, and new Baer Erradispeed rotors are all going on. Figured that I would also bleed out all of the fluid and add new. The car is 10 years old still with the original fluid.

Here is the proof. Look at this nasty old fluid, it's dirty and you can see the water droplets floating on the top of it. Yuck!!!!! Hard to believe there is only 22k miles on it. That equals crappy performance in the most important part of the car.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn30/dsg03vert/03%20Viper/82AFD3F6-7191-4F29-AC7A-3CF315416527_zpsk7a2rp6v.jpg (http://s300.photobucket.com/user/dsg03vert/media/03%20Viper/82AFD3F6-7191-4F29-AC7A-3CF315416527_zpsk7a2rp6v.jpg.html)

[01sapphirebob]

Thats crazy. Good advice I took for The Wizard a while ago...Change all fluids every three years regardless of mileage. If tracking the car. Should be done after each track event. I make sure I get the fluids done regularly now. "Cheap" insurance. ;)

[J TNT]

Brake Fliud is hydroscopic , and picks up 2 to 3% of moisture a year , regardless of mileage ! ;)

[Leslie]

Thats crazy. Good advice I took for The Wizard a while ago...Change all fluids every three years regardless of mileage. If tracking the car. Should be done after each track event. I make sure I get the fluids done regularly now. "Cheap" insurance. ;)

omg ! What he said:)
I probably changed out fluids more than I needed to on my GTS, but to me it was worth it!

[pony23]

Yeah, I just picked the car up in the fall. Changing all the fluids and doing a complete tune up over the winter months. It needs it.

[St.Char]

Yeah, I just picked the car up in the fall. Changing all the fluids and doing a complete tune up over the winter months. It needs it.

Bernie, PM me with the bleeder kit you are using. Doing mine soon...

[Sybil TF]

Brake Fliud is hydroscopic , and picks up 2 to 3% of moisture a year , regardless of mileage ! ;)
Not if you have silicone race fluid like mine.

[whitebeard]

Informational post only....Just had some time on my hands and I am a science geek.

http://www.mossmotoring.com/conventional-vs-silicone-brake-fluid/

Silicone fluids, in addition to having high boiling points and being non-hygroscopic, do not damage paint as do glycol fluids. This is of particular importance in regard to show cars where a spill or leak of glycol fluid can have seriously ugly results. There are, however, some disadvantages to silicone fluids. They are slightly compressible, particularly near the higher end of their temperature range. While this is of absolutely no consequence for normal street use, this is why silicone fluids are not used in race cars. (Conversely, racing hydraulic fluids should not be used in street cars. This is because, although racing brake fluids have high dry boiling points, most are highly hygroscopic, and have relatively very low wet boiling points. They would probably work extremely well if you were to change the fluid every week or so.) Because air bubbles do not regularly dissipate in silicone brake fluid, special care must be used to prevent them from forming during pouring and bleeding operations. The best way to bleed a silicone fluid system is with an Eezibleed Kit (Moss #386-860). Lacking that, bleed with slow pedal strokes, avoiding “pumping” the pedal. It may be necessary to bleed the system again in a day or so if there were any air bubbles which wouldn’t bleed out the first time.

http://highwaymarket.lk/vip/112-brake-fluid

Most automotive professionals agree that glycol-based brake fluid, (DOT 3, DOT 4, DOT 5.1) should be flushed, or changed, every 1–2 years under non-racing conditions. Many manufacturers also require periodic fluid changes to ensure reliability and safety. Once installed, moisture diffuses into the fluid through brake hoses and rubber seals and, eventually, the fluid will have to be replaced when the water content becomes too high. Electronic testers and test strips are commercially available to measure moisture content, however moisture test strips were taken off the market because they absorb moisture in the air before they can be used. The corrosion inhibitors also degrade over time. Degraded inhibitors cause corrosion in the braking system. The first metal to corrode is copper. You can determine when it is time to replace brake fluid when copper ions hit 200ppm.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fluid#cite_note-200ppm-3) New fluid should always be stored in a sealed container to avoid moisture intrusion. DOT 5 is silicone fluid and the above does not apply. Ideally, silicone fluid should be used only to fill non-ABS systems that have not been previously filled with glycol based fluid. Any system that has used glycol based fluid will contain moisture; glycol fluid disperses the moisture throughout the system and contains corrosion inhibitors. Silicone fluid does not allow moisture to enter the system, but does not disperse any that is already there, either. A system filled from dry with silicone fluid does not require the fluid to be changed at intervals, only when the system has been disturbed for a component repair or renewal. The United States armed forces have standardized on silicone brake fluid since the 1990s. Silicone fluid is used extensively in cold climate, particularly in Russia and Finland.


http://www.afcoracing.com/tech_pages/fluid.shtml

http://adlersantiqueautos.com/articles/brake2.html

[Steve M]

Bernie, PM me with the bleeder kit you are using. Doing mine soon...

I've used a Motive Power Bleeder with success...I like being able to do it as a one man operation.

Lots of ways to skin this cat though.

[pony23]

I've used a Motive Power Bleeder with success...I like being able to do it as a one man operation.

Lots of ways to skin this cat though.

I used the same thing. Works great.

I also have the Mityvac but I don't like it that much. Hard to tell when the air comes out with it. It pulls air from around the bleeder threads.

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

Not if you have silicone race fluid like mine.

YIKES !! DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!! Do read what WHITEBEARD so geekily shared......

Remember this rule of thumb: SILICONE is for Breasts, not BRAKES !!! OK IN YOUR GRAMMMA's OLDMOBILE ONLY

[Sybil TF]

YIKES !! DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!! What WHITEBEARD so geekily shared......

Remember this rule of thumb: SILICONE is for Breasts, not BRAKES !!! OK IN YOUR GRAMMMA's OLDMOBILE ONLY

Car stops really good! No mushy pedal. Tight. And remember, I don't have ABS.

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

I wont go into the science of hygroscopic fluids, (see whitebeard above) but short answer is this for a high performance uses:

Silicone is Good Cold. Bad Hot.

[Sybil TF]

but short answer is this for a high performance uses:

[/B]
No,street use but I do drive like a bat out of hell! :car-smiley-003:

For some reason a lot of crapvette guys use it. Hmmmm, maybe I should reconsider....

[Revolution]

Is there a better way to bleed the clutch on the Gen 4 or did I miss something? Doesn't seem like a nipple to get a hose on like the brakes etc?

[plumcrazy]

i still say brakes are over rated LOL

[XSnake]

I wont go into the science of hygroscopic fluids, (see whitebeard above) but short answer is this for a high performance uses:

Silicone is Good Cold. Bad Hot.

JonB, the Castrol SRF is Silicone Dot 5 IIRC. That's what 99% of the pro teams use. Higher boiling point and no moisture. That's what I run and all my problems went away, haven't been able to boil this stuff yet.

YOU CANNOT MIX THE SRF WITH ANYTING, FULL FLUSH REQUIRED

[Sybil TF]

JonB, the Castrol SRF is Silicone Dot 5 IIRC.



Just went through my fluids item list that original owner of my car gave me. This is what I have. So I guess I'm ok.

[Sybil TF]

i still say brakes are over rated LOL

That's what Dodge thought when they made the gen 1,2 Vipers....

[daytonprowler]

I'd been using ATE Super Blue Brake Fluid in the Shelby Mustang. It was nice that you could alternate the blue and amber when you changed the brake fluid. I just read that in August the Feds decided that after 15 years on the market, since Super Blue is actually blue in color, it can't be sold in the USA anymore. Fed standards state that brake fluid must be clear or amber in color. It took them 15 years to realize it was blue.

[XSnake]

Just went through my fluids item list that original owner of my car gave me. This is what I have. So I guess I'm ok.


Yep, best stuff you can buy.

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

I'd been using ATE Super Blue Brake Fluid in the Shelby Mustang. It was nice that you could alternate the blue and amber when you changed the brake fluid. I just read that in August the Feds decided that after 15 years on the market, since Super Blue is actually blue in color, it can't be sold in the USA anymore. Fed standards state that brake fluid must be clear or amber in color. It took them 15 years to realize it was blue.


Speaking as a past tech-inspector, I cringed to see a reservoir underhood that looked dark or blackish. With SuperBlue, thay all 'looked bad' and I had to interview the driver/crew to see if it was SuperBlue. Some drivers put a sticker on the reservoir to eliminate doubt.

[Steve M]

JonB, the Castrol SRF is Silicone Dot 5 IIRC. That's what 99% of the pro teams use. Higher boiling point and no moisture. That's what I run and all my problems went away, haven't been able to boil this stuff yet.

YOU CANNOT MIX THE SRF WITH ANYTING, FULL FLUSH REQUIRED

I don't think you are recalling correctly...Castrol SRF is not a DOT 5, it is a very high boiling point (dry and wet both) DOT 4 fluid. It can be mixed with other fluids, but it is not recommended since it will only serve to greatly reduce its wet boiling point properties, which is its main selling point.

http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_australia/STAGING/local_assets/downloads/s/SRF_B768.pdf

[Steve M]

Is there a better way to bleed the clutch on the Gen 4 or did I miss something? Doesn't seem like a nipple to get a hose on like the brakes etc?

It is a messy job regardless of how you do it...the bleeder allows fluid to escape from the end AND around the threads, so inevitably some will leak into the bellhousing and out through the bottom slot.

Just put a drip pan underneath the car and let the fluid flow wherever it wants, and then clean it up with brake cleaner after you are done. I've used a pressure bleeder with success...others prefer a MityVac or the old fashioned "have a helper pump" method.

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

I verified the Castrol SRF specs to be as Steve noted. NOT SILICONE.

[Back In Black]

I was stunned by the number of late model cars for sale at BJ with dirty brake fluid including a couple Vipers. Makes you wonder how well the rest of the car was maintained.

[99RT10]

I was stunned by the number of late model cars for sale at BJ with dirty brake fluid including a couple Vipers. Makes you wonder how well the rest of the car was maintained.



I don't think that is a good indication. Brake fluid is probably the most neglected fluid. For those track rats and anal owners, yep it gets taken care of. For others, it doesn't get a second thought until the brake fail.

[Sybil TF]

I don't think you are recalling correctly...Castrol SRF is not a DOT 5, it is a very high boiling point (dry and wet both) DOT 4 fluid. It can be mixed with other fluids, but it is not recommended since it will only serve to greatly reduce its wet boiling point properties, which is its main selling point.

http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_australia/STAGING/local_assets/downloads/s/SRF_B768.pdf

So is Silicon ester and Silicone two different things? Probably confusion here.

[AZTVR]

I was stunned by the number of late model cars for sale at BJ with dirty brake fluid including a couple Vipers. Makes you wonder how well the rest of the car was maintained.

I've put brake fluid in from an unopened bottle and was surprised at how dark it was. I would have changed it if I had seen that darkness in a car that I just bought. I recently got a brake fluid moisture tester from Santa, and the fluid did check out as new fluid does.

[Joel]

MTGTS, I respect your opinion about brake fluid but the only problem with silicone brake fluid is that it is difficult and near impossible to get all the old fluid out before you add the silicone fluid. It is fine if you are starting with all fresh parts but I'd rather take my chances with non silicone racing fluid changed regularly. I haven't hand boiling problems on the track in either my 100% track car or the Viper with racing fluid. And, if you ever have a failure on the street, sometimes it is hard to get silicone fluid if you have to repair the brake system and then you are in trouble. Just my 2 cents.


JonB, the Castrol SRF is Silicone Dot 5 IIRC. That's what 99% of the pro teams use. Higher boiling point and no moisture. That's what I run and all my problems went away, haven't been able to boil this stuff yet.

YOU CANNOT MIX THE SRF WITH ANYTING, FULL FLUSH REQUIRED

[daveg]

OP, did you use the Motive POWER BLEEDER? If so, how did it work? If not, has anyone used one?

[Steve M]

OP, did you use the Motive POWER BLEEDER? If so, how did it work? If not, has anyone used one?


Used it for the clutch, used it for the brakes...both times worked very well. For the brakes, I used it for a caliper swap, so the calipers that I put on were dry. Bled them without an issue.

For the clutch, I sent the guys at Motive a spare cap to have converted to work with their system...they essentially just epoxied a fitting on the cap.

[daveg]

Used it for the clutch, used it for the brakes...both times worked very well. For the brakes, I used it for a caliper swap, so the calipers that I put on were dry. Bled them without an issue.

For the clutch, I sent the guys at Motive a spare cap to have converted to work with their system...they essentially just epoxied a fitting on the cap.Cool, I will have to order one. which one (model) do you have?

[XSnake]

MTGTS, I respect your opinion about brake fluid but the only problem with silicone brake fluid is that it is difficult and near impossible to get all the old fluid out before you add the silicone fluid. It is fine if you are starting with all fresh parts but I'd rather take my chances with non silicone racing fluid changed regularly. I haven't hand boiling problems on the track in either my 100% track car or the Viper with racing fluid. And, if you ever have a failure on the street, sometimes it is hard to get silicone fluid if you have to repair the brake system and then you are in trouble. Just my 2 cents.

In one of my previous post I mentioned its over kill for 95% of people.

You also need to remember that Gen 3/4 have ducting to the brakes to help keep them cool.

[Steve M]

Cool, I will have to order one. which one (model) do you have?

Just the standard pressure bleeder with the 1103 Chrysler adapter for the brakes...they didn't have an adapter for the clutch master cylinder reservoir, so I bought an extra cap from X2 Builders, sent it to Motive, and they drilled a hole and epoxied a fitting to it that would work with the bleeder.

I also added a valve stem so I can pressurize it with my compressor instead of pumping it by hand...very handy little mod.

[pony23]

OP, did you use the Motive POWER BLEEDER? If so, how did it work? If not, has anyone used one?


Yes I bought the Motive power bleeder. It works pretty good. I also sucked out the fluid from the master cylinder reservoir with a turkey baster, that helped speed up the process.

I like it much better than Mityvac that I used to use.

[ACR Steve]

Motive is great it makes it a 1 person job. I only use Motul 600 in the Viper and my race cars . Its much better then Super Blue if you track the car or really work the brakes