Anybody running the Schroth ASM harnesses in a Gen V

[Snorman]

I know Team Techs are the popular harness for these cars, but I like the idea of the Schroth 4-point ASM's. I don't like the idea of sitting on the sub belts as with the Team Techs and I don't really like the bulky chest pad.

Heading over to a friend's house tomorrow...he has the TT's in his car (this is the car I drove at Daytona), but want to look more closely at them before deciding.

Also, has anybody looked into have the OEM seat modified to accept a proper sub belt? I know a few people that had a local shop cut and re-upholster an OEM or Recaro seat (not in a Viper) to accept a sub belt.
Thanks.
S.

[PTP]

Have you used a 4 point harness before? Just checking because my experience with a 4 point in another car was unsatisfactory. I had the Schroth ASM, but I kept slipping under the lap belt because it would get pulled upwards after I tightened the shoulder straps. Having a sub belt will help keep the lap belt in place.

[darbgnik]

I have the Team Tech, and have no experience with Schroth harnesses, so I'm no help there. But I was wondering what you mean by a proper sub belt? I talked at length with Kurt at Team Tech on the install of my harnesses, as I had the seat lowering kit, and the sub belt bar didn't work for me. He said he had lengthy arguments with SRT designers when he told them where to put the factory sub belt holes in the Gen V seat. Seeing as he's the subject matter expert, I assumed this install was ideal.....

Albeit, it does seem kind of weird to have the belts come under your legs before coming up through, it isn't obtrusive at all, and he explained why this was ideal, though, of course, I can't remember his reasoning.

[RedTanRT/10]

I have a 6 point schroth in my comp coupe that I'd sell for a very reasonable price. Send a pm if interested

[Snorman]

Have you used a 4 point harness before? Just checking because my experience with a 4 point in another car was unsatisfactory. I had the Schroth ASM, but I kept slipping under the lap belt because it would get pulled upwards after I tightened the shoulder straps. Having a sub belt will help keep the lap belt in place.Yes, I have. And I drive a few different cars in the ChumpCar World Series, where all we can run are race seats and full harness setups. One thing to bear in mind is that you should always snug the lap belts first and then the shoulders. This will prevent the lap belts from riding up over your abdomen when snug the shoulder harnesses. The ASM's are pretty popular in other platforms, but apparently not in the Vipers.
S.

[Snorman]

I have the Team Tech, and have no experience with Schroth harnesses, so I'm no help there. But I was wondering what you mean by a proper sub belt? I talked at length with Kurt at Team Tech on the install of my harnesses, as I had the seat lowering kit, and the sub belt bar didn't work for me. He said he had lengthy arguments with SRT designers when he told them where to put the factory sub belt holes in the Gen V seat. Seeing as he's the subject matter expert, I assumed this install was ideal.....

Albeit, it does seem kind of weird to have the belts come under your legs before coming up through, it isn't obtrusive at all, and he explained why this was ideal, though, of course, I can't remember his reasoning.I'm not using the seat lowering kit (even though I'm 6'3", lol) so I could technically run the Team Techs and sit on the sub belts. But if you look at race car installs, the sub belts come through the seats just forward of your...ahem...crotch. So there is very little forward movement of the pelvis in the event of a hard frontal collision, but the primary reason for the sub belt is the keep the lap belts in place during a collision. From what I've read, they should be installed at 10-20 degrees behind the imaginary chest line, not ran through the seat back of an OEM 2-piece seat.
Clearly, I'm not stating that the TT's aren't safe, or well designed, or anything negative. Just IMO if I'm going to run a 5/6 point belt I'd prefer the sub belts to be mounted as intended and if not, I think I'd prefer to run the Schroth as they are DOT tested and approved (with the proper release) and are HANS compatible.
S.

[darbgnik]

I'm not using the seat lowering kit (even though I'm 6'3", lol) so I could technically run the Team Techs and sit on the sub belts. But if you look at race car installs, the sub belts come through the seats just forward of your...ahem...crotch. So there is very little forward movement of the pelvis in the event of a hard frontal collision, but the primary reason for the sub belt is the keep the lap belts in place during a collision. From what I've read, they should be installed at 10-20 degrees behind the imaginary chest line, not ran through the seat back of an OEM 2-piece seat.
Clearly, I'm not stating that the TT's aren't safe, or well designed, or anything negative. Just IMO if I'm going to run a 5/6 point belt I'd prefer the sub belts to be mounted as intended and if not, I think I'd prefer to run the Schroth as they are DOT tested and approved (with the proper release) and are HANS compatible. S.

This was my point, the hole could have been made anywhere for the sub belts when it was designed into the seats, and the holes for the sub belts are in the seat bottom bucket, they don't come up between the seat and the seat back. I also know what you're used to, the last couple chumpcar seats I raced in had the one hole in the center, just ahead of your crotch. Just an FYI, you can also order TT harnesses as HANS compatible, maybe if I had my time back I would have went with that option, but I didn't.

[Snorman]

I wouldn't use harnesses without a HANS. It's very unsafe. They do not allow movement of the torso as with OEM 3-points. So yes, absolutely I'd get the TT for HANS (which I believe they have a slightly tapered shoulder harness for easier clearance of the lip on HANS).
S.

[darbgnik]

21362

Agreed on the safety aspect. I tested out my HANS in a race at Laguna this weekend past. Came around Turn 3 with a full head of steam to a car spun sideways in my line. He obviously had never heard of 2 feet in, in a spin, because as soon as I went outside to avoid him, his tires hooked up and he rolled backwards into my path yet again. Nailed him hard in the NASCAR bar. Fuct up our car pretty good, and I actually broke the steering wheel, bracing for the impact. Makes for a cool souvenir though, I guess.

[fuggles]

I have a schroth asm in my gen 4. Not apples to apples. Easy bolt in. I like it. I would have them cut about 2 inches out of the shoulder straps. They are a bit too long for me.

[Snorman]

Yeah, that's a tough situation if you don't have anywhere to go. Hopefully you had a spare steering wheel in the trailer, lol.
S.

[Snorman]

In case anybody was wondering what we're talking about with the Schroth ASM...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8nsg_ze-CG8
S.

[w00tw00t]

I have the Team Tech, and have no experience with Schroth harnesses, so I'm no help there. But I was wondering what you mean by a proper sub belt? I talked at length with Kurt at Team Tech on the install of my harnesses, as I had the seat lowering kit, and the sub belt bar didn't work for me. He said he had lengthy arguments with SRT designers when he told them where to put the factory sub belt holes in the Gen V seat. Seeing as he's the subject matter expert, I assumed this install was ideal.....

Albeit, it does seem kind of weird to have the belts come under your legs before coming up through, it isn't obtrusive at all, and he explained why this was ideal, though, of course, I can't remember his reasoning.

Actually can someone expand on why Dodge chose to put the holes at the back of the seat and not where they traditionally are (in the middle on most race buckets)? I have 6pt harnesses on my viper too but chose to get Schroth Profi II-6 Hans as I had them sitting around from a previous car and didn't want to spend more $xxx on team tech..

[Snorman]

I just went over to my friend's house (with my helmet and HANS) and tried out the Team Techs again. The issue I have is sitting on the sub belts and how they wrap around my crotch. And I don't like the big pad behind the buckle and the chest pads.
Clearly they are very nicely made and high quality!
S.

[Racingswh]

I just went over to my friend's house (with my helmet and HANS) and tried out the Team Techs again. The issue I have is sitting on the sub belts and how they wrap around my crotch. And I don't like the big pad behind the buckle and the chest pads.
Clearly they are very nicely made and high quality!
S.

I sit on mine and always have. Just like it better. The setup has been barrel roll tested. Works great.

I ordered my TT's without the chest pad. Way better imo.

[TrackAire]

I sit on mine too.....first time I was exposed to this was as a passenger in a friends car. Thought it was the goofiest thing in the world until I tried it. Then I did some research and found that nearly all formula cars, formula 1 cars, etc the driver sits on the crotch belts because there really is no seat bottom except for the tub of the car. Now I don't even realize that I'm sitting on the belts when driving on the track.

One thing that concerns me about the ASM system is I "think" the ASM stretches by breaking threads that allow excess webbing to lengthen the shoulder strap. This makes perfect sense for the initial head on hit, but what happens if the car is barrel rolling or hit from different angles after the initial stretch? Now your shoulder strap is very loose allowing your upper body to possibly flop around.

Not 100% sure if this is how the ASM operates to increase shoulder belt length, but unless it can instantly retract after the initial stretch, I would be concerned about additional hits or barrel rolling and my upper torso coming out of the shoulder straps. The potential for injury if that happens increases greatly.

[ek1]

I wouldn't use harnesses without a HANS. It's very unsafe. They do not allow movement of the torso as with OEM 3-points. So yes, absolutely I'd get the TT for HANS (which I believe they have a slightly tapered shoulder harness for easier clearance of the lip on HANS).
S.

Confirmed, when you order a TeamTech harness, you can specify that you want a 2" taper for your HANS. I have it and it works great with my Schroth SHR Flex.

[ek1]

Actually can someone expand on why Dodge chose to put the holes at the back of the seat and not where they traditionally are (in the middle on most race buckets)? I have 6pt harnesses on my viper too but chose to get Schroth Profi II-6 Hans as I had them sitting around from a previous car and didn't want to spend more $xxx on team tech..

Can you explain what you mean? Are you talking about holes for the shoulder belts below the headrest area or holes for lap belts that go between the bottom cushion and the back of the seat?

[TrackratViper]

I just went over to my friend's house (with my helmet and HANS) and tried out the Team Techs again. The issue I have is sitting on the sub belts and how they wrap around my crotch. And I don't like the big pad behind the buckle and the chest pads.
Clearly they are very nicely made and high quality!
S.

I tried the Schroth ASM in my Gen V ACR and did not care for it at all. Even if you tighten the lap belts first, they tend to ride up when you tighten the shoulder belts. This is annoying and puts the lap belt in an unsafe position. In my view you are better off with a six point belt. The Schroth Profi II works just fine . The sub belts could be a little longer but they will work.

[Snorman]

I'm going to run the Schroth Profi II ASM with cam lock. A sub belt can be added to this setup should I decide to look into having the OEM seat base modified. Since it's a manual seat with no heat/cool I'm guessing the seat base is pretty "clean". You don't need 2" belts to work with HANS, the 3" will fit.
Lots of great input in this thread.
S.

[w00tw00t]

Can you explain what you mean? Are you talking about holes for the shoulder belts below the headrest area or holes for lap belts that go between the bottom cushion and the back of the seat?

Sorry I meant the holes for the lap belts that go between the bottom cushion and back of the seat… Why are they that way vs. all the other race bucket seats where they are further up towards the middle of the seat bottom ..

[AZTVR]

You don't need 2" belts to work with HANS, the 3" will fit.

What makes some harnesses not be compatible with HANS, now, then? Or is it that the HANS devices are now made to be compatible with most harnesses, i.e., they are now compatible with 3" belts? I had read (years ago) that the shoulder belt width was what was the compatibility issue.

[Snorman]

What makes some harnesses not be compatible with HANS, now, then? Or is it that the HANS devices are now made to be compatible with most harnesses, i.e., they are now compatible with 3" belts? I had read (years ago) that the shoulder belt width was what was the compatibility issue.
http://hansdevice.com/FAQ.html

What type of shoulder belts work best with a HANS Device?
Any SFI or FIA approved shoulder harness system works fine with the HANS Device.
2" or 3" shoulder belts in nylon or polyester work fine with the HANS Device.
Be sure to mount and replace your belts in accordance with manufacturer guidelines. Only the HANS Device spreads the belts around your neck, preventing chafing and maximizing belt performance.
As long as the belts are not wrapping over the lip, there is not an issue. They've always been compatible with 3" belts.
S.

[ek1]

Sorry I meant the holes for the lap belts that go between the bottom cushion and back of the seat… Why are they that way vs. all the other race bucket seats where they are further up towards the middle of the seat bottom ..

Pretty sure it was a cost issue. Something ranging from $10 extra per seat to have a hole in the middle to having to invest millions into re-certifying a brand new type of a seat.

Having said that, all cars with racing seats I have ever driven before the ACR had holes in the middle of the bottom cushion and I thought I am going to hate sitting on the lap belts in the ACR. In reality, it was never an issue and I got used to it after 1 day. Even passengers in my car (I have a harness on a passenger seat as well) do not complain about the lap belts lying flat on the seat cushion when driving on the road.

[ek1]

http://hansdevice.com/FAQ.html

As long as the belts are not wrapping over the lip, there is not an issue. They've always been compatible with 3" belts.
S.

I have used my HANS device in cars with 3" belts. The problem is that my HANS device (SHR FLEX) has 2" belt channels in it. If the belt is 3", it sort of "folds" into the channel (creating a "U" shape) instead of going fully in. I found that if I tightened the belts too much, my neck/head would hurt and if I tightened it so I am snug but comfortable, the belt could slip out of the channel with enough force.

So it's not that it's absolutely impossible to use 3" harness with a HANS device designed for 2" belts, it's just not ideal (at least for me). You'd hate it if your shoulder belt slipped out of a channel in your HANS device when you hit an immovable object at 100+ mph.

I am pretty sure any harness manufacturer can taper 3" belts in the exact location where they touch the HANS device. This is what TeamTech has done and it works very well.

[Snorman]

I have used my HANS device in cars with 3" belts. The problem is that my HANS device (SHR FLEX) has 2" belt channels in it. If the belt is 3", it sort of "folds" into the channel (creating a "U" shape) instead of going fully in. I found that if I tightened the belts too much, my neck/head would hurt and if I tightened it so I am snug but comfortable, the belt could slip out of the channel with enough force.

So it's not that it's absolutely impossible to use 3" harness with a HANS device designed for 2" belts, it's just not ideal (at least for me). You'd hate it if your shoulder belt slipped out of a channel in your HANS device when you hit an immovable object at 100+ mph.

I am pretty sure any qualified race shop can taper 3" belts in the exact location where they touch the HANS device. This is what TeamTech has done and it works very well.
Pretty much every set of harnesses I've used in various cars (both street and race) have been 3" belts. In fact, even the Schroth Flex is designed to work with both 2" and 3" belts. I'm not sure how there would be any difference in comfort or why the shoulder harnesses would be snugged to a different tension. My HANS also does not have a 3" channel (it's ~2") and 3" belts fit fine. The point is that either work fine and are approved for use in HANS by pretty much all the HANS manufacturers. But yeah, the 2" might be easier for some who are belting into the car themselves (without help pit help).
I would also never recommend have any shop modify a set of harnesses after they've been certified by the manufacturer. I'm pretty sure TT is the manufacturer. A number of racing series also either do not allow 2" harnesses or strongly recommend 3".
S.

[ek1]

Pretty much every set of harnesses I've used in various cars (both street and race) have been 3" belts. In fact, even the Schroth Flex is designed to work with both 2" and 3" belts. I'm not sure how there would be any difference in comfort or why the shoulder harnesses would be snugged to a different tension. My HANS also does not have a 3" channel (it's ~2") and 3" belts fit fine. The point is that either work fine and are approved for use in HANS by pretty much all the HANS manufacturers. But yeah, the 2" might be easier for some who are belting into the car themselves (without help pit help).
I would also never recommend have any shop modify a set of harnesses after they've been certified by the manufacturer. I'm pretty sure TT is the manufacturer. A number of racing series also either do not allow 2" harnesses or strongly recommend 3".
S.

TeamTech is a manufacturer. To clarify, the taper I am talking about is described by Teamtech as following:

"The harness is still classified as a 3” harness, but contours down to a 2” harness by folding and sewing the inside and outside edges where it will come in contact with the HANS®
yoke. Then as it reaches the top of the shoulder it returns to a 3” harness. It is specially designed to hold down the HANS yoke with or without the sternum strap. "

The pic of the design can be found in Page 9 of the TeamTech capalog at http://www.teamtechmotorsports.com/2016Catalog.pdf

Thinking about it some more, you are correct - nobody but the manufacturer should modify the harness, so I will edit my post accordingly.

[Snorman]

TeamTech is a manufacturer. To clarify, the taper I am talking about is described by Teamtech as following:

"The harness is still classified as a 3” harness, but contours down to a 2” harness by folding and sewing the inside and outside edges where it will come in contact with the HANS®
yoke. Then as it reaches the top of the shoulder it returns to a 3” harness. It is specially designed to hold down the HANS yoke with or without the sternum strap. "

The pic of the design can be found in Page 9 of the TeamTech capalog at http://www.teamtechmotorsports.com/2016Catalog.pdf

Thinking about it some more, you are correct - nobody but the manufacturer should modify the harness, so I will edit my post accordingly.Got it.
Yeah, a few friends with TT's have the narrowed down shoulder harness option for HANS. I actually didn't look closely to see how they narrowed it, but that's great info you posted!
Thanks.
S.

[Dr.Ron]

Do you guys run the lap belts from the Viper mounting bar around the seat sides, or through the holes in the seat?
If through the seat holes, then do you double up and run the sub belt(s) through the seat holes as well?

Ron

[Topplayer]

I have the TT 6 point in my viper and after I got it all set up I love it for the track. I put it on when I get to the track day and take it off when I leave, It is super uncomfortable for the street.

I just did 3 days on Boundrant with a 4 point harness (forgot the brand), after 3 days in a 4 point I know for a fact I would never use one on my personal car. the lap belt is a joke with no lower point holding it down. It is slightly more comfortable than the 6 point but I would not trust it in a crash. I use a Hans btw

my .02 cents

[Dr.Ron]

Do you guys run the lap belts from the Viper mounting bar around the seat sides, or through the holes in the seat?
If through the seat holes, then do you double up and run the sub belt(s) through the seat holes as well?

Ron

Anyone?

[Simms]

Lap belts around sides. Sub belts through seat.

[Dr.Ron]

That's what I thought.
Thanks.