Tech at Bondurant told me their engines DO NOT burn oil

[Larryskillzs]

21202I just completed my first day of the GPR-3 school at Bondurant and so far so good!

We had 2 classroom sessions where we went over racing basics. The driving drills on day one included heel toe downshifting, an accident maneuver drill and a 3rd gear apex practice on the miracopa oval.

After the day was over, me and my buddy decided to head over to the garage and ask questions.

The first question was a simple one, what's the biggest common issue they are having with the Vipers. The answer was the Differentals. They are currently trying out a diff cooler to prolong the frequency of chainging the diff fluid. Currently, SRT wants it changed every 5 hours of track time. They are hoping the cooler prolongs the intervals. I can see why the diffs are going, thousands of miles of huge abuse.

Then I asked about how long do the cars stay out on the track until they are retired. The answer was 20,000-25,000 miles. The most impressive thing, no blown engines or no oil burn. I was kinda shocked to hear this.

They probably have 50 Vipers laying around that are being used and a lot more that have been decommissioned over time. So, why haven't these Vipers engines exploded? I might have a simple answer. I'm assuming the Bondurant techs properly break in the car and are awesome at maintenance.

If anyone has a concern about the Viper, do a day or four at Bondurant and see for yourself how reliable these machines are.

I'll update the post tomorrow and have a day 2 summary.

[Terminator02]

Sounds like a great course and a blast to attend. Thanks for sharing. AFAIK, the vipers they use are other generations correct? The Viper engines gen 1-4 were rock solid. There were never reported oil consumption issues or spun bearings. I think that is the biggest reason for their answer. I think the other reason there were no bearing/oil issues is that the cars are driven hard and maintained well. I think it's the cars that sit and have inconsistent driving patterns that tend to end up having the most problems.

[TrackAire]

"I'm assuming the Bondurant techs properly break in the car and are awesome at maintenance".


I'm not sure about proper break in....when I did the class they had Corvette Grand Sports and my car was near brand new with less than 300 miles on it. I ran that thing as hard as I could, never missed a beat. I even pulled in on the 3rd day when we were doing extended track runs in the heat because the oil pressure was barely registering when the car was at idle. The mechanics said no worries, go out and have fun. I did and turned the car in with near 600 miles on the odometer when I left.

Maybe the key is to make sure a new car is up to operating temps and then drive it like you stole it.....seems to work for every new car I've owned.

Enjoy Bondurant...it is a blast!!

[donk_316]

Or maybe the amount of catastrophic engine failures are being distorted by an Internet forum.

$50 says Bondurant School knows how to check oil levels too... just sayin!

[SRT BILL]

Very interesting post. I was wondering what brand motor oil they use in the Gen V's and what weight? Larry have fun and keep asking questions.

[swexlin]

On another note, why are the Dana diffs in these cars so problematic? I mean, even those of us with non-tracked cars have had them replaced.

[Dman]

Sounds like a great course and a blast to attend. Thanks for sharing. AFAIK, the vipers they use are other generations correct? The Viper engines gen 1-4 were rock solid. There were never reported oil consumption issues or spun bearings. I think that is the biggest reason for their answer. I think the other reason there were no bearing/oil issues is that the cars are driven hard and maintained well. I think it's the cars that sit and have inconsistent driving patterns that tend to end up having the most problems.

They're brand new gen5 ACRs.

[Dman]

Maybe the key is that they're newer. Maybe the issue was fixed at some point, but we don't know since they won't admit to an issue in the first place. We haven't seen a 2017 with an issue yet that I'm aware of.

[Bruce H.]

Maybe the key is that they're newer. Maybe the issue was fixed at some point, but we don't know since they won't admit to an issue in the first place. We haven't seen a 2017 with an issue yet that I'm aware of.

I'm not surprised they've had no engine failures. What I am surprised at is that I don't know anyone who has had a Gen V engine failure. I've read posts here saying there have been a lot, but for sure many have run out of oil...and owners won't be posting about that.

They definitely do exist, but it seems a lot like forum paranoia to be actually surprised when they don't blow up.

[Larryskillzs]

I'm in a custom 2016 T/A 2.0. They have ACR's and T/A 2.0's everywhere. Off to day 2!

If any of you guys want me to ask the tech'a a question, fire away. I'm all out of questions for now.
21201

[ACR]

I'm in a custom 2016 T/A 2.0. They have ACR's and T/A 2.0's everywhere. Off to day 2!

If any of you guys want me to ask the tech'a a question, fire away. I'm all out of questions for now.
21201

Yes do they follow the break in procedure
Do they ever change the plugs or plan to

[Dman]

Yes do they follow the break in procedure
Do they ever change the plugs or plan to

Ditto, what is their break-in procedure.

[serpent]

Are the cars running arrow pcm?

Maybe the cars are stock with only pad and brake fluid swap?

[99RT10]

"I'm assuming the Bondurant techs properly break in the car and are awesome at maintenance".


I'm not sure about proper break in....when I did the class they had Corvette Grand Sports and my car was near brand new with less than 300 miles on it. I ran that thing as hard as I could, never missed a beat. I even pulled in on the 3rd day when we were doing extended track runs in the heat because the oil pressure was barely registering when the car was at idle. The mechanics said no worries, go out and have fun. I did and turned the car in with near 600 miles on the odometer when I left.


Enjoy Bondurant...it is a blast!!

Sounds like the proper break in procedure to me :D

[donk_316]

Just for the record. His cars are TA 2 group cars. Not actual TAs.

I have all of his cars VINs and build sheets.

[steve911]

On another note, why are the Dana diffs in these cars so problematic? I mean, even those of us with non-tracked cars have had them replaced.

I would definitely not say its problematic. There have been some but it is by far not overwhelming and of those some were traced back to improper fills at Dana not a problem with the diff.

[texasram]

Sounds like a great course and a blast to attend. Thanks for sharing. AFAIK, the vipers they use are other generations correct? The Viper engines gen 1-4 were rock solid. There were never reported oil consumption issues or spun bearings. I think that is the biggest reason for their answer. I think the other reason there were no bearing/oil issues is that the cars are driven hard and maintained well. I think it's the cars that sit and have inconsistent driving patterns that tend to end up having the most problems.

Viper engines 1-4 were rock solid?? only if you werent moding them, they all had cream puff pistons except for 96-99

[swexlin]

I would definitely not say its problematic. There have been some but it is by far not overwhelming and of those some were traced back to improper fills at Dana not a problem with the diff.
I know that when I got my diff replaced, my tech said the NEW one came low on fluid, and he had to top it off.

[The_Ruski_Driver]

May be slightly OT but is this part of the "SRT experience" we get for free with the car when buying new? Prev owner was a hot shot in Miami that probably never went past 4000 RPM so I will bet he never did it. How do I find out?

[nuviper]

May be slightly OT but is this part of the "SRT experience" we get for free with the car when buying new? Prev owner was a hot shot in Miami that probably never went past 4000 RPM so I will bet he never did it. How do I find out?

You can check your vin on the SRT website http://www.drivesrt.com/high-performance-driving-school/

But I also read on the Bondurant website that you need to take part in this program within one year of the new car delievery... https://bondurant.com/dodge-srt-experience/

[The_Ruski_Driver]

Don't see anyway to input a vin here? Maybe cause I'm in mobile...

[VENOM V]

Guys, there are two reasons why the Vipers don't burn oil at Bondurant:

1. They have the new updated 2016 valve covers that dramatically reduce the amount of oil that can build up and get sucked into the intake during right hand sweepers

2. Their tracks don't have any high speed, high RPM sweepers, which is where the older Gen V Vipers would consume oil. This is the primary reason for oil consumption on Gen Vs at the track, now resolved.

I consumed nearly a quart per day at some tracks on my 2013, but I don't consume any while tracking my 2016. Since I've stopped tracking my 2013, I no longer consume much oil in it. Plus I just had the R28 / R29 update, so the updated valve cover has been installed.

I just returned from Bondurant. They raved about the Viper reliability as compared to the C7 Corvettes. Just went on and on about it. That includes Bob and Pat Bondurant, as well as the employees that I talked to. We had a dozen Vipers on track for three days when I went. No issues, save for a trouble code thrown for an air bag.

Also, they described how boring it was to put all of those break-in miles on their Vipers. They did it by the book.

I also agree with the statement that the internet has blown some of this stuff out of proportion. Some of the blown engines were due to owners not checking the oil and running them dangerously low. I know first-hand of one that grenaded for that reason, and I've talked with mechanics that have seen this all too often.

[rw99]

Ditto what Todd said above... the school has been through multiple fleets during its decades-long experience, and they couldn't say enough good things about the current stable of Vipers. And the cars we were tracking had just been through a summer's-worth of use. I'm really impressed.

BTW, they fitted one of the TA 2.0 cars (#4) with a seat-lowering kit for me, and I assume they'll leave it in for future use. If you're 6'3" or taller, be sure to reserve it... because you will absolutely need the headroom once you've got a helmet on.


Rich

[Larryskillzs]

This is why I mentioned they are "custom" t/a 2.0's

[Dman]

Guys, there are two reasons why the Vipers don't burn oil at Bondurant:

1. They have the new updated 2016 valve covers that dramatically reduce the amount of oil that can build up and get sucked into the intake during right hand sweepers

2. Their tracks don't have any high speed, high RPM sweepers, which is where the older Gen V Vipers would consume oil. This is the primary reason for oil consumption on Gen Vs at the track, now resolved.

I consumed nearly a quart per day at some tracks on my 2013, but I don't consume any while tracking my 2016. Since I've stopped tracking my 2013, I no longer consume much oil in it. Plus I just had the R28 / R29 update, so the updated valve cover has been installed.

I just returned from Bondurant. They raved about the Viper reliability as compared to the C7 Corvettes. Just went on and on about it. That includes Bob and Pat Bondurant, as well as the employees that I talked to. We had a dozen Vipers on track for three days when I went. No issues, save for a trouble code thrown for an air bag.

Also, they described how boring it was to put all of those break-in miles on their Vipers. They did it by the book.

I also agree with the statement that the internet has blown some of this stuff out of proportion. Some of the blown engines were due to owners not checking the oil and running them dangerously low. I know first-hand of one that grenaded for that reason, and I've talked with mechanics that have seen this all too often.

Yea, but R29 isn't really the big culprit for burning oil, it's just oil contamination in the air box. Guys seem to be burning oil who don't track and there's no way any one is cruising the streets making right hand sweepers hard enough to be throwing a qt or two into the air box. Very few people ever had infiltration of the air box, I've seen maybe 2 pics of it myself. From posts from other aftermarket tuners, they refer to ring seal issues and out of round issues on cylinders, haven't seen this 1st hand thank god, but that's worst case. But a guy burning a qt/700 miles, isn't throwing the qt into the air box & I'd argue that's not normal consumption unless these are 2 strokes but FCA disagrees. Very interesting they do the break-in by the book, I'd take that as gospel right there with proof in the pudding since they have had zero issues.

As for reliability over the C7's, yea, I'm sure that's the case, I can't imagine running a track instruction / coaching program and dealing with C7 issues on the track. It'd be like OK, so now squeeze the throttle and ... oh, we're in limp mode, OK, we got our 4 laps so lets go cool down and then go back out, lol.

This program is on my bucket list & underlined, can't wait to make this happen.

[Larryskillzs]

Sitting at lunch now.

Our morning drills were,

Cone controlled braking. At 65 mph, we had to start braking at 3 sets cones. We went through each station of cones twice. Next drill we had to manuver at full abs brake through a tight right hand exit point at the end of the cones.

Next was the skid pad drill with the chargers and damn, I could have spent all day doing that drill. The instructor was testing me hard and it was so amazing. It lasted 10-15 mins, but it felt like 2.

Finally, we hit the maricopa oval again and they added the element of a 3-2 downshift in turn 5. I took the heel toe drills from yesterday and expanded on the track. Muscle memory is an amazing thing.

My observation that's questioning things is how much higher the hot oil pressure temps are running. The car will not go below 45 psi after a track session. If I recall, my Viper was around 30 after a session. It's something I'm going to ask the techs about. Let's hope they are honest.

[BlueAdder]

I asked the techs similar questions when I was there a couple weeks ago and I got the same answers.
All of this makes sense because they look at the cars every day and they must maintain them very well. After all, those are their main tool to run the school so they can't have the cars fail at any time.

I asked about the diff, and they said that they service it every 5 hours. so basically every 2 or 3 days.
I didn't ask about oil consumption because I was more interested in the ACR suspension settings. The guy couldn't really provide me the information besides the ride height (which is the same as what is written in the ACR manual) because, the car are set up for that particular track and those settings may/will not apply to every track around. That was a bit of a bummer but understandable.

[swexlin]

My car uses about 1 qt per 1000-1200 miles. When R28/29 was done, my tech showed me the old air filter. Clean as a whistle, not a drop, in fact, look almost brand new.

[VENOM V]

Yea, but R29 isn't really the big culprit for burning oil, it's just oil contamination in the air box. Guys seem to be burning oil who don't track and there's no way any one is cruising the streets making right hand sweepers hard enough to be throwing a qt or two into the air box. Very few people ever had infiltration of the air box, I've seen maybe 2 pics of it myself. From posts from other aftermarket tuners, they refer to ring seal issues and out of round issues on cylinders, haven't seen this 1st hand thank god, but that's worst case. But a guy burning a qt/700 miles, isn't throwing the qt into the air box & I'd argue that's not normal consumption unless these are 2 strokes but FCA disagrees. Very interesting they do the break-in by the book, I'd take that as gospel right there with proof in the pudding since they have had zero issues.

As for reliability over the C7's, yea, I'm sure that's the case, I can't imagine running a track instruction / coaching program and dealing with C7 issues on the track. It'd be like OK, so now squeeze the throttle and ... oh, we're in limp mode, OK, we got our 4 laps so lets go cool down and then go back out, lol.

This program is on my bucket list & underlined, can't wait to make this happen.

I stand corrected, I haven't followed the oil burning threads. I just know that my 2013 consumed oil due to tracking for three years, and now it doesn't. My 2013 went into limp mode because there was so much oil in the airbox that it saturated the air filter and oil was coating the sensors. No question that was the culprit for my car burning oil. However as you point out, if a bunch of street driven Vipers do too then there are more than one cause.

You won't regret it if you do the ACR program, but try to get Justin Bell. He was awesome and very personable. We really hit it off.

[Jack B]

You can have Arrow do the break-in on the dyno, that sounds like a win/win scenario for a race school car.


"I'm assuming the Bondurant techs properly break in the car and are awesome at maintenance".


I'm not sure about proper break in....when I did the class they had Corvette Grand Sports and my car was near brand new with less than 300 miles on it. I ran that thing as hard as I could, never missed a beat. I even pulled in on the 3rd day when we were doing extended track runs in the heat because the oil pressure was barely registering when the car was at idle. The mechanics said no worries, go out and have fun. I did and turned the car in with near 600 miles on the odometer when I left.

Maybe the key is to make sure a new car is up to operating temps and then drive it like you stole it.....seems to work for every new car I've owned.

Enjoy Bondurant...it is a blast!!

Y

[TA Two Oh]

All of this makes sense because they look at the cars every day and they must maintain them very well. After all, those are their main tool to run the school so they can't have the cars fail at any time.

I asked about the diff, and they said that they service it every 5 hours. so basically every 2 or 3 days.
.

A few years ago, I purchased a couple of their (well!) used School cars, and some friends of mine did as well. We all bought them sight unseen. Each car arrived with a GIGANTIC records file that included daily entries of what was done to the car and literally hundreds of invoices for fluids, maintenance and parts. Fastidious doesn't begin to describe the level of detail and attention the Bondurant cars received and everything was incredibly well documented. Those cars endure about the roughest imaginable use, but thanks to fabulous maintenance -and, in the case of the cars we bought, many upgraded parts- they soak up the abuse without protest.

I may be wrong but I believe their current lineup of Dodges -ours were Mustangs- are NOT upgraded at all. They're identical to what we buy and they just take it... hour after hour... day after day... week after week in the most extreme of conditions. Yes, the cars are exceptionally well maintained. But they're also exceptionally robust.

[Jack B]

It sounds like all your oil issues were from the valve cover?



I stand corrected, I haven't followed the oil burning threads. I just know that my 2013 consumed oil due to tracking for three years, and now it doesn't. My 2013 went into limp mode because there was so much oil in the airbox that it saturated the air filter and oil was coating the sensors. No question that was the culprit for my car burning oil. However as you point out, if a bunch of street driven Vipers do too then there are more than one cause.

You won't regret it if you do the ACR program, but try to get Justin Bell. He was awesome and very personable. We really hit it off.

[VENOM V]

It sounds like all your oil issues were from the valve cover?

I think so. I will see in time, but so far so good.

[bkrone]

I talked with them last year when they just started getting a lot of their cars. The night manager talked about how he would drive them around during the day to do the break in miles, they do the break in by the book on the road putting miles on the cars. When I was there for a corporate go-karting event he talked about how each day he would grab one of the ACR-E's and go for a 500+ mile ride, change oil, and do it again. Can't wait to go back and drive the Vipers!

[SRT_BluByU]

Please ask what diff fluid they are using and if they are adding in the limited slip additive if they are using the Castrol fluid spec'd

[Blue09]

Guys, there are two reasons why the Vipers don't burn oil at Bondurant:...

So, what about the front tires, how have they solved that problem or do they change front tires after every hour or two of use?

What alignment settings do they use or, what tires+sizes do they use if not the Kuhmos?

[allans]

`^^^ This.

[Larryskillzs]

I'll ask about the front tires on the ACR. They really preach being smooth. They don't want you to understeer and drag your front tires a lot. They want constantly smooth inputs/outputs. They also don't want you to be sloppy. They want clean lines and and smooth braking. Smooth is fast and all of their drills makes you smooth.

The 2nd half of the 2nd day was the most taxing yet.

After lunch we were introduced to the rest of the track. We hopped into the instructors car and started going over the very technical Boundurant course. There's so many technical turns, it was a lot to take in. After the instructor ride we did a lead and follow session. Those chargers can haul ass. The last lap of the follow he opened it up on us and I was the lead, he had 3-4 car legnths on me.... Lol. I was super impressed. Humble pie all around.

We pulled into the pits and had a 20 minute drivers meeting.

Last part of the day was about 45 mins of track time solo with instructors hopping in to give advice. My instructor hopped in and we did 2 laps and switched seats. I usually learn the most when I sit passenger and it helped me greatly. After 2 laps, we pitted in and I was solo again for the rest of the session. The track is so technical, one mistake in 1 turn basically ruins the next 3. I've been on 5 different tracks and the Bondurant is hands down the craziest one I've ever encountered.

After 2 days I have learned so much about the Viper and what the abilities are, every cent is so worth it.

if you have the $1000 off voucher, DO THE 3/4 day racing school. Its like a sin owning a Viper and not going to Bondurant.

I'll update the thread at lunch

[ViperJon]

I'm not so sure that unusual oil consumption would be that noticeable on these cars as they obviously routinely change the oil so often as part of the maintenance?

[swexlin]

I'm not so sure that unusual oil consumption would be that noticeable on these cars as they obviously routinely change the oil so often as part of the maintenance?

Jon makes a good point, I was thinking the same.

[timberwolf]

My R29 completely changed my oil consumption issue. (Meadowland of Carmel, CJ is the man) I used to devour a quart every 1000 miles. I've also changed the oil way too often as a paranoid reflex.

[Dman]

I talked with them last year when they just started getting a lot of their cars. The night manager talked about how he would drive them around during the day to do the break in miles, they do the break in by the book on the road putting miles on the cars. When I was there for a corporate go-karting event he talked about how each day he would grab one of the ACR-E's and go for a 500+ mile ride, change oil, and do it again. Can't wait to go back and drive the Vipers!

What a tough job, lol. Very interesting and good to know, thanks.

[VENOM V]

So, what about the front tires, how have they solved that problem or do they change front tires after every hour or two of use?

What alignment settings do they use or, what tires+sizes do they use if not the Kuhmos?

Gary and Alan,

I wrote about the tires in my review of the Bondurant ACR school below. Tires are stock Kumhos, brakes are stock CCMs too. Justin Bell loved the brakes, as did Loyde and I.

http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/16088-The-Ultimate-ACR-Racing-School?highlight=ultimate

We were on the track constantly, probably 6 hours of track time first day and 5 hours second and third day each. We were driving hard the whole time. No holding back, sometimes 40 minutes in a session. Each day we went through two front sets and about one rear set.

Also, they behave very differently in very hot (95 - 99 deg) ambient than tracking in cool to warm temperatures. See details in my thread.

I'm going to follow Luke's advice and get a set of 18s/19s and run the Pirelli slicks, but I also see a place for my Kumhos on one-day events where I drive to/from the track.

I don't know about alignment specs. Height looks to be per ACR user's manual, with the frame at about 4" front / 5.5" rear (I put my hand in the gap above the tires to get a rough idea, didn't take a measurement)

[BlueAdder]

I don't know about alignment specs. Height looks to be per ACR user's manual, with the frame at about 4" front / 5.5" rear (I put my hand in the gap above the tires to get a rough idea, didn't take a measurement)

When I talked to the tech regarding the ACR-E suspension spec, the one thing he did mention was that they are set as per the ACR manual and the rear was about 2.5" from the bottom, give or take since they are corner balanced as well.

[Larryskillzs]

I graduated!!

I'm exhausted. For the final day, we were given a little treat!!

There's a long story on what happened, but who cares....the 3 of us in our group we were given the West track for the whole day with the advanced class, which was only 1 guy. We had the whole course to ourselves. We started with a instructor car session, then a lead and follow. After the lead and follow we decided to do a drift car session which was awesome. We expanded the session to include figure 8's. That was pretty fun and I really started to hold the drift pretty well.

We went back to the track for an hour open session. After the open session was lunch. After lunch was another lead and follow then an open session for 2.5 hours. Bob Bondurant was on the track with us in an ACR and he pointed me by!!! Haha. It was great. He pointed me by in the middle of a turn and I just took it with a huge smile. He's 81 and still ripping it up on the track. God bless that man.

After the long session we met Bob again for graduation.

To answer a few questions, the ACR goes through a set of tires evert 1/2 day. The diff fluid is the OEM mopar grade. The psi'/ are higher in the Bondurant Vipers since they use 15w-50 weight oil. They currently use Mobil 1 and will be switching over to Pennzoil pretty soon. I'll get the alingment they use when I go though all of my videos.

Lastly, I was impressed with my Viper at the track before Bondurant, but after Bondurant, I'm totally in awe of the car. It's bulletproof. It's consistent. It's predictable. It's a ton of fun to track.

I think about all the Vipers that never even go to redline once and get sad, because the car is more than a cruiser, it's a flat out race car!

I hope to be back for the advanced racing school!

[VENOM V]

Amen to that, Larry! The Viper is the best kept secret in the automotive world, it is an exceptional track car. Glad you had that experience.

Regarding the tires, yes the ACRs go through the fronts in 1/2 day, but the rears last 1 day (twice as long). That's what we experienced and we were on track a lot of hours each day. Tons of seat time, minimal classroom time.

Viper FTW!!!

[swexlin]

Larry, appreciate the writeup. Nice to see how these cars, when properly maintained, really perform.

[KURAC]

+1 for attending the Bondurant school. I recently graduated from the 2 day Viper TA 2.0 class as a guest. Lots of fun and should be mandatory for Viper ownership. I don't have a Viper but it still allowed me to appreciate and learn the car's capabilities which are very high. The instructors stated all the SRT cars get flogged and don't miss a beat which is very impressive. As much fun as it was, it really allowed me to appreciate my GT350 Track Pack even more as the Viper really sounds like shit at redline. No comparison to the Voodoo in aural satisfaction. I was also very surprised st the lack of low end grunt in lower gears, reminded me of the Shelby. Other than that, it was a fantastic experience I will always remember in an awesome car. Definitely something checked off on my bucket list.

[NT-ACR]

+1 for attending the Bondurant school. I recently graduated from the 2 day Viper TA 2.0 class as a guest. Lots of fun and should be mandatory for Viper ownership. I don't have a Viper but it still allowed me to appreciate and learn the car's capabilities which are very high. The instructors stated all the SRT cars get flogged and don't miss a beat which is very impressive. As much fun as it was, it really allowed me to appreciate my GT350 Track Pack even more as the Viper really sounds like shit at redline. No comparison to the Voodoo in aural satisfaction. I was also very surprised st the lack of low end grunt in lower gears, reminded me of the Shelby. Other than that, it was a fantastic experience I will always remember in an awesome car. Definitely something checked off on my bucket list.

:t1253:

[ViperJon]

Vipers have a lack of low end grunt? That's a first.

[Bill Pemberton]

TexasRam ,

Sorry , but time to actually insert something in here , as time seems to have made all our memories disappear, since there were problems with engines in Gen 1 through Gen 4 cars, too. We seem to have all forgotten the situations as the years cause fuzzy memories , but heck most still remember the head gasket issues with all Gen 1s. Amazingly we saw plenty of blown motors over the years, but it seemed there were quite a few from missed shifts and other driving situations ---but today no one ever, ever misses a shift or does anything silly, ha.

Always a small number , over the years, and thank goodness it is not like the Porsche GT3s where motors were lighting up and all were replaced or Corvette Z06s that would only go 3-4 laps before overheating. Sure there are some problems, not even remotely denying that, but to say there never were in the past is not a true statement either. Seems when one starts talking high performance cars the failure or problem rates go up as they are vehicles built to take to the edge and many drivers do. I will say over 35 years of racing I have seen fewer Vipers have problems on the track than any other manufacturer, so overall not a bad track record, imho.

[AZTVR]

so, overall, not a bad track record

Literally, and figuratively !

[Jack B]

:t1253:

He must have forgotten to release the emergency brake.

[ViperDC]

I talked with them last year when they just started getting a lot of their cars. The night manager talked about how he would drive them around during the day to do the break in miles, they do the break in by the book on the road putting miles on the cars. When I was there for a corporate go-karting event he talked about how each day he would grab one of the ACR-E's and go for a 500+ mile ride, change oil, and do it again. Can't wait to go back and drive the Vipers!

tough job LOL

[Larryskillzs]

There's something I forgot to mention about Bondurant.

They beat the shit out of Chargers, the new Fiat 124's, Hellcats, 500's, and even the vans!

Our first time out, 7-8 of us hopped into the Passenger Van and they ran through the auto across course. The van was doing great. I was blown away and laughing like a 5 year old in the rear. As a owner of a cargo van(Chevy Express) I couldn't imagine ripping though a course the way they were driving their vans.

My instructor's Charger had a tire start shredding in a group drive and he didn't give one care in the world. One of my fellow students in the back seat started freaking out that the tire blew and the instructor ignored him for 30 seconds then started drifting for the rest of the lap. It was amazing. He was trying to completely kill the tire. When we pulled in and he failed to totally blow it out, he looked at it and was sad he didn't complete the job of blowing it out. I was in awe of his driving skills. These guys that work there can flat out drive like nothing I ever experienced.

It's been 2 days since my final lap and I'm still smiling about the 3 days.

[Larryskillzs]

TexasRam ,

Sorry , but time to actually insert something in here , as time seems to have made all our memories disappear, since there were problems with engines in Gen 1 through Gen 4 cars, too. We seem to have all forgotten the situations as the years cause fuzzy memories , but heck most still remember the head gasket issues with all Gen 1s. Amazingly we saw plenty of blown motors over the years, but it seemed there were quite a few from missed shifts and other driving situations ---but today no one ever, ever misses a shift or does anything silly, ha.

Always a small number , over the years, and thank goodness it is not like the Porsche GT3s where motors were lighting up and all were replaced or Corvette Z06s that would only go 3-4 laps before overheating. Sure there are some problems, not even remotely denying that, but to say there never were in the past is not a true statement either. Seems when one starts talking high performance cars the failure or problem rates go up as they are vehicles built to take to the edge and many drivers do. I will say over 35 years of racing I have seen fewer Vipers have problems on the track than any other manufacturer, so overall not a bad track record, imho.

To add to this, the instructors were telling me as long as you keep the revs under 5000 rpms in the Viper, the car can run all day, even at 120 degrees. They also did tell me that when they had the C7's they could not have the ZO6's because of the overheating issues. They also mentioned that the regular C7 Stingray's also had overheating problems in the hot temps.

It's been mentioned before, but these guys love the new fleet. The only difference with the engine is the use of 15w-50 oil. They change the oil every 1500 miles. The hot oil psi runs around 50psi compared to the 0w-40 that runs around 29psi hot.

They run thicker oil to compensate for the extreme heat.

[KURAC]

There's something I forgot to mention about Bondurant.

They beat the shit out of Chargers, the new Fiat 124's, Hellcats, 500's, and even the vans!

Our first time out, 7-8 of us hopped into the Passenger Van and they ran through the auto across course. The van was doing great. I was blown away and laughing like a 5 year old in the rear. As a owner of a cargo van(Chevy Express) I couldn't imagine ripping though a course the way they were driving their vans.

My instructor's Charger had a tire start shredding in a group drive and he didn't give one care in the world. One of my fellow students in the back seat started freaking out that the tire blew and the instructor ignored him for 30 seconds then started drifting for the rest of the lap. It was amazing. He was trying to completely kill the tire. When we pulled in and he failed to totally blow it out, he looked at it and was sad he didn't complete the job of blowing it out. I was in awe of his driving skills. These guys that work there can flat out drive like nothing I ever experienced.

It's been 2 days since my final lap and I'm still smiling about the 3 days.

The Sprinters were epic. We had 3 guys all the way in the back of ours, probably 700-750lbs and the instructor was doing some crazy shit. At one point I was like why is this thing not tipping over? Someone else asked if they had a Sprinter spec race class. LOL. You wouldn't believe what these things were capable of on stock tires.

[KURAC]

He must have forgotten to release the emergency brake.

Nope. The instructors advised everyone to not use their E brakes at all throughout the class days. Actually, someone else in our group felt the same way about lack of low end torque and mentioned his impressions to me first. And he's had several Vipers. Then GenV definitely needs a shorter gear out back.

[BlueAdder]

To add to this, the instructors were telling me as long as you keep the revs under 5000 rpms in the Viper, the car can run all day, even at 120 degrees. They also did tell me that when they had the C7's they could not have the ZO6's because of the overheating issues. They also mentioned that the regular C7 Stingray's also had overheating problems in the hot temps.

It's been mentioned before, but these guys love the new fleet. The only difference with the engine is the use of 15w-50 oil. They change the oil every 1500 miles. The hot oil psi runs around 50psi compared to the 0w-40 that runs around 29psi hot.

They run thicker oil to compensate for the extreme heat.

Not sure where you live but my with my ACR, in CA with outside temps between 65-90 my hot oil PSI is a lot higher than 29PSI.
Next time out I'll check again, but it's usually much higher than 50PSI.

[Larryskillzs]

Not sure where you live but my with my ACR, in CA with outside temps between 65-90 my hot oil PSI is a lot higher than 29PSI.
Next time out I'll check again, but it's usually much higher than 50PSI.
At idle?

[Terminator02]

There's something I forgot to mention about Bondurant.

They beat the shit out of Chargers, the new Fiat 124's, Hellcats, 500's, and even the vans!

Our first time out, 7-8 of us hopped into the Passenger Van and they ran through the auto across course. The van was doing great. I was blown away and laughing like a 5 year old in the rear. As a owner of a cargo van(Chevy Express) I couldn't imagine ripping though a course the way they were driving their vans.

My instructor's Charger had a tire start shredding in a group drive and he didn't give one care in the world. One of my fellow students in the back seat started freaking out that the tire blew and the instructor ignored him for 30 seconds then started drifting for the rest of the lap. It was amazing. He was trying to completely kill the tire. When we pulled in and he failed to totally blow it out, he looked at it and was sad he didn't complete the job of blowing it out. I was in awe of his driving skills. These guys that work there can flat out drive like nothing I ever experienced.

It's been 2 days since my final lap and I'm still smiling about the 3 days.

That's awesome Larry. I bought a 2016 SRT Jeep and will be doing the driving experience soon. I look forward to learning to take the jeep to its limit. It's a very capable vehicle. What's great about the 16 is they implemented a true customization menu for vehicle manipulation settings. Instead of the preset "street" " sport" "track" etc modes, I can make my own custom profile by tic box clicks on my Uconnect. I can use track steering, track stability and say street suspension settings for aggressive driving but the softest suspension setting for street driving. I'm amazed by this truck more and more as I get to know it and look forward to seeing how to really take advantage of it.

[KURAC]

That's awesome Larry. I bought a 2016 SRT Jeep and will be doing the driving experience soon. I look forward to learning to take the jeep to its limit. It's a very capable vehicle. What's great about the 16 is they implemented a true customization menu for vehicle manipulation settings. Instead of the preset "street" " sport" "track" etc modes, I can make my own custom profile by tic box clicks on my Uconnect. I can use track steering, track stability and say street suspension settings for aggressive driving but the softest suspension setting for street driving. I'm amazed by this truck more and more as I get to know it and look forward to seeing how to really take advantage of it.
If you are hoping to beat the crap out of a GC SRT, I think you are shit out of luck, I didn't see one GC on their premises....and they had 120 SRT vehicles all within eye sight.

[swexlin]

At idle?

Sitting at a traffic light in hot weather, my hot idle PSI can be 28-32, 0w 40 stock Penzoil

[Lawrenzo]

Vipers have a lack of low end grunt? That's a first.

He probably owned a 13/14 GT500 as well. If so, he's got a point. I've owned both, and the GT500 has low end torque in spades!

[ACR Steve]

350 has low end grunt?????

Funny I drove a 350R around Lime rock . Loved the carbon fiber wheels, loved the brakes, loved the handling and hated the motor (It was flat below 6000 ) oh and it was 4-5 seconds a lap slower

[ek1]

I'm in a custom 2016 T/A 2.0. They have ACR's and T/A 2.0's everywhere. Off to day 2!

If any of you guys want me to ask the tech'a a question, fire away. I'm all out of questions for now.
21201

How do they check the damn oil with that unreadable dipstick?

[Larryskillzs]

How do they check the damn oil with that unreadable dipstick?

I did ask that question and he looked at me funny and said... we check the oil when the car is warm and read the dipstick.

Remember, they use 15w-50 oil, not 0-40. 0-40 is so hard to read compared to 15w-50.

[VENOM V]

Guys, I've stayed silent about this for a while, but reading the dipstick on both of my Gen Vs is about the same as my other cars. I just look at both sides and can determine the level reasonably well. I usually check it twice to be confident, not that hard to me

[ACR PWR]

Guys, I've stayed silent about this for a while, but reading the dipstick on both of my Gen Vs is about the same as my other cars. I just look at both sides and can determine the level reasonably well. I usually check it twice to be confident, not that hard to me


This is what I was going to say about the dip stick. ^
I believe I got the hang of it now. MY 2016 ACR has 1900 miles on it now and I check it everytime I drive it.

Check both sides and you will see correlating horizontal oil level. The slight splatter will be just above the horizontal oil line.

Check twice and you will see the correlating oil line on both sides of the dip stick.

[LmeaViper]

Are they using the stock oil filter?

[Larryskillzs]

What are the pros and cons of 15w-50?

Pros for them.. it gets to 120 degrees ambient temps out in Chandler, Arizona and SRT wanted them to run the thicker oil since the 0w-40 is too thin in that type of heat.

These cars run for hours a day on the track. It's not like a HPDE where you run 20 min sessions 4 times a day.

- - - Updated - - -


Are they using the stock oil filter?

Yes. Mostly everything they use is from Dodge.

[Voice of Reason]

I started running 15-50 this year, I just make sure the oil temp is up to 100 before I pull out of my driveway. The thicker oil quieted down the minor valve train noise our engines make so that was a nice side effect.

[ViperJon]

I started running 15-50 this year, I just make sure the oil temp is up to 100 before I pull out of my driveway. The thicker oil quieted down the minor valve train noise our engines make so that was a nice side effect.

Warranty voided............:). At least I hope I'm kidding.

[swexlin]

Any downside to 15w-50 in an average climate? I'm thinking about switching oils to see if it cuts down on consumption. I don't see oil smoke, but my oil magically disappears if I use the fun pedal.

How much oil are you using?

[darbgnik]

+1 for attending the Bondurant school. I recently graduated from the 2 day Viper TA 2.0 class as a guest. Lots of fun and should be mandatory for Viper ownership. I don't have a Viper but it still allowed me to appreciate and learn the car's capabilities which are very high. The instructors stated all the SRT cars get flogged and don't miss a beat which is very impressive. As much fun as it was, it really allowed me to appreciate my GT350 Track Pack even more as the Viper really sounds like shit at redline. No comparison to the Voodoo in aural satisfaction. I was also very surprised st the lack of low end grunt in lower gears, reminded me of the Shelby. Other than that, it was a fantastic experience I will always remember in an awesome car. Definitely something checked off on my bucket list.

I don't think you'll find too many who would say a Viper V10 is musically a match to a new Shelby 350, but are you really trying to say the 350 has more low end grunt?????


If you are hoping to beat the crap out of a GC SRT, I think you are shit out of luck, I didn't see one GC on their premises....and they had 120 SRT vehicles all within eye sight.

The main reason a lot of places wont let you take out an SRT Jeep, is the weight differential between it and other vehicles, they're quite heavy. I've contemplated taking out my girlfriends SRT GC, as I'm really curious about how it would fare. On the street, the brakes work under merciless assault, and it corners a lot better than you think it should. Just look at the static camber it wears leaving the showroom floor. Would it be fast? Nah, I don't think so, but I think the giggle factor would be high.

[Jack B]

Swexlin

Do you have a catch can on the passenger's side?

[LmeaViper]

[QUOTE=darbgnik;262110]I don't think you'll find too many who would say a Viper V10 is musically a match to a new Shelby 350, but are you really trying to say the 350 has more low end grunt?????

I had to check it out and found this online....take it for what's it worth...and it does sound pretty good though.
http://www.motortrend.com/news/dyno-battle-gt350-gt350r-and-camaro-z28/#

[Terminator02]

[QUOTE=darbgnik;262110]I don't think you'll find too many who would say a Viper V10 is musically a match to a new Shelby 350, but are you really trying to say the 350 has more low end grunt?????

I had to check it out and found this online....take it for what's it worth...and it does sound pretty good though.
http://www.motortrend.com/news/dyno-battle-gt350-gt350r-and-camaro-z28/#

I'm so confused. We are talking the Shelby GT 350, and this is a link to the focus RS hatchback? I do think the Shelby GT350 sounds great and is a great track car. It's not as capable as the viper and I don't know why there was the comment that it doesn't have "low end grunt." I thought that way but it's the powerband delivery and the increased insulation compared to my old gen ll which made me feel that way. The viper pulls all the way through the powerband which I thought was a major bonus of this vehicle so I'm surprised someone going through the school driving a TA 2.0 would feel that way when in a mustang GT 350?! It does sound great but I think the stock viper v10 is one of the worst sounding sports/exotic cars...but we mostly all agree that's one of a very few weak points.

[Larryskillzs]

[QUOTE=LmeaViper;262144]

I'm so confused. We are talking the Shelby GT 350, and this is a link to the focus RS hatchback? I do think the Shelby GT350 sounds great and is a great track car. It's not as capable as the viper and I don't know why there was the comment that it doesn't have "low end grunt." I thought that way but it's the powerband delivery and the increased insulation compared to my old gen ll which made me feel that way. The viper pulls all the way through the powerband which I thought was a major bonus of this vehicle so I'm surprised someone going through the school driving a TA 2.0 would feel that way when in a mustang GT 350?! It does sound great but I think the stock viper v10 is one of the worst sounding sports/exotic cars...but we mostly all agree that's one of a very few weak points.


I have to disagree. When I'm at the track, I always have a few people come up to me and say how great the V10 sounds coming down the straights at wide open throttle. I have a video of me at Pocono and it honestly sounds like heaven.

The low end grunt issue is the long 2nd gear in the Viper. If you are not a pussy and drop to 1st, it would help a ton.

[Terminator02]

[QUOTE=Terminator02;262149]


I have to disagree. When I'm at the track, I always have a few people come up to me and say how great the V10 sounds coming down the straights at wide open throttle. I have a video of me at Pocono and it honestly sounds like heaven.

The low end grunt issue is the long 2nd gear in the Viper. If you are not a pussy and drop to 1st, it would help a ton.

Well the gen V is the best sounding viper they have made, no doubt. The others were much work and more engineering went into the sound on this. I don't think one can compare it to the mustang GT 350 and many other great v8 engines or the sound of the Italian horses though. Glad you find it great though. I'll say of every single modded car I've had, none gets more attention and sound appreciation than my hc with titanium catback though. It's definitely the best sounding viper and car I've had and would never thought this sound would be possible. I agree about the second gear but have no problem dropping gears to be within optimum range. But I'll typically roll top of second through 4th no problem. If I'm slow enough to be low in second I'll go to first. There's no issue with that. Best transmission I've had also in a car.

[swexlin]

Swexlin

Do you have a catch can on the passenger's side?

Jack, I don't, car is 100% stock.

[Jack B]

I just assumed your car had an engine issue, it may be as simple as a bad pcv valve. Just an opinion, I would change the pcv valve and add a catch can on the pass side. There is no negative to adding the catch can, only pluses. The pic below is a forum vendors catch can, it works and is also eye candy

21371





Jack, I don't, car is 100% stock.

- - - Updated - - -

[AZTVR]

There is no negative to adding the catch can, only pluses.

There is one possible negative. The installation of a catch can could be used by Dodge as the reason for denying a failed engine warranty repair. ( There has been a recent case of GM doing exactly that. That Camaro forum thread reads extremely similar to our Arrow PCM thread.)

[ek1]

There is one possible negative. The installation of a catch can could be used by Dodge as the reason for denying a failed engine warranty repair. ( There has been a recent case of GM doing exactly that. That Camaro forum thread reads extremely similar to our Arrow PCM thread.)

Oh hell no! Is this for real? I have 2 catch cans and _zero_ other mods (aside from some heat shielding and heat wrapping of some components in the engine bay) and I bought an extended Dodge warranty specifically so I dont have to worry about bullshit issues for 7 years. I can understand FCA denying a warranty claim for cars that have things like 3rd party PCMs, headers, cams, etc. installed - at least that can theoretically be somehow remotely connected to an engine failure, but a catch can? Come on!

Do you happen to have a link to that Camaro forum thread?

[ViperJon]

Been an issue discussed on the Corvette forums as well.
http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c7-z06-discussion/3824556-gm-voids-warranty-for-catch-can.html

[AZTVR]

The Camaro forum thread is 47 pages long and also discussed on many other forums. The first post starts with an added, updated short summary of the issue's conclusion. In today's environment, I would remove the catch cans when taking a car into a dealer unless you have a special relationship with them. Just my opinion.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=451361

Summary: 1 year old Camaro had a low oil pressure warning light at start-up. Owner shut down the car immediately and flat-bedded it to the dealer. The dealer mechanic started up the car and heard a knocking noise. They took pictures of the engine and the warranty center personnel saw the aftermarket catch can installation and denied paying for any further work and put a block on the powertrain warranty. The engine used in this model has a history of oil pump failures. "Everyone" including the catch can vendor agree that there is no possible way that the catch can could cause a loss of oil pressure. GM sells a GM performance part, catch can, for that car; but it installs in a different line.

Eventually the owner gave up fighting GM and fixed the car himself. He found cracks in the oil pump cover.

This may be an extreme case; but, it is indicative of what can happen when a big company starts looking for excuses.




Oh hell no! Is this for real? I have 2 catch cans and _zero_ other mods (aside from some heat shielding and heat wrapping of some components in the engine bay) and I bought an extended Dodge warranty specifically so I dont have to worry about bullshit issues for 7 years. I can understand FCA denying a warranty claim for cars that have things like 3rd party PCMs, headers, cams, etc. installed - at least that can theoretically be somehow remotely connected to an engine failure, but a catch can? Come on!

Do you happen to have a link to that Camaro forum thread?

[Jack B]

What did sergeant Schultz say. At least change the pcv valve. It takes five minutes.



There is one possible negative. The installation of a catch can could be used by Dodge as the reason for denying a failed engine warranty repair. ( There has been a recent case of GM doing exactly that. That Camaro forum thread reads extremely similar to our Arrow PCM thread.)st

[Dave1968]

https://youtu.be/RXJKdh1KZ0w You need one of these. Lol. What a great laugh - I think we all need it. Enjoy!

[ViperGeorge]

https://youtu.be/RXJKdh1KZ0w You need one of these. Lol. What a great laugh - I think we all need it. Enjoy!

I'll get one of those right after I install my thermo hydraulic muffler bearing isolators with the capacitive turbo connector option.

[LmeaViper]

Terminator02...[QUOTE=LmeaViper;262144]



I'm so confused. We are talking the Shelby GT 350, and this is a link to the focus RS hatchback? I do think the Shelby GT350 sounds great and is a great track car. ...............

In reply to your post the link goes to this below,which is about the GT350 on the dyno...No idea why you would link to anything about a Focus???

"We Take a 2015 Camaro Z/28, 2016 Shelby GT350, and 2016 Shelby GT350R to the Dyno "


http://www.motortrend.com/news/dyno-...d-camaro-z28/#