2 pound battery install in 2016 ACR

[Arizona Vipers]

Here's a quick and cheap ($209.99) way to drop 22 lbs off of your ACR and also have a more stable battery overall.
Lithium batteries provide the same output voltage regardless of how much the battery is charged/discharged.
The factory ACR battery weighs 24.34 lbs. (the ACR battery is already 7 lbs lighter than non-ACR's)


I used this battery-
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00F9LPL5E/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
It's about 1/3rd the price of the Braille lithium batteries I've used in the past.

If you are going to hook this up to a tender, you'll need this as well-
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00N5UBQHS/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I used these terminal adapters for the negative side- (I cut the black plastic part off)
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002ZR4UC/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

For the positive side you can just unscrew the large round connector off the positive cable and screw the cable right to the battery.

I glued a thin pad to the bottom of the battery just for added protection of the battery.

I used this strap to secure the battery- https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0018APUJC/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I put the factory screws through the strap with a large washer. I have this setup on my '13 too so I can swap batteries if needed.

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[Pappy]

Nice job!

Pappy

[FLATOUT]

Nice! Interested to see how these perform over time.

[Martin2000GTS]

That's funny. I just bought that exact same battery for My Harley Road King. Literally the same model number. The stock battery in the Bike was 22lbs. That battery actually weighs a tad over 3lbs (I weighed it on a digital postal scale). Didn't think it would start a big viper engine. Very impressive!

[Arizona Vipers]

Nice! Interested to see how these perform over time.

I did a test trying to simulate real world conditions (for me) and left the car off with radio on medium volume, doors open with interior lights on for about 15 minutes and the car still fired right up.
I don't forsee any situation where i would use more reserve than that. A non-ACR with a bigger stereo in it might see different results...

[TrackAire]

I have the same battery in my track Vette for over 8 months. I've not only tracked it, but had daily driven it to car shows, etc. I'm pleased to say it has held up great with no issues. We'll see how long it lasts.

When not driving the car, I keep a lithium battery maintainer connected to it.

[sharmut]

Nice info. May give it a try on my TA.

[Martin]

Interesting. Any worries of it exploding or catching fire when charging? These batteries are very charge-current sensitive, and it looks like this one has a maximum of 10A charge rating. If it's run down pretty far, the alternator will most certainly deliver a heck of a lot more current than that. Could potentially be an issue unless the battery is always kept at maximum voltage via a tender.

[TrackAire]

Interesting. Any worries of it exploding or catching fire when charging? These batteries are very charge-current sensitive, and it looks like this one has a maximum of 10A charge rating. If it's run down pretty far, the alternator will most certainly deliver a heck of a lot more current than that. Could potentially be an issue unless the battery is always kept at maximum voltage via a tender.

Deltran has a tech guy there that answers the phone and is named Tim. I told him what I wanted to do, if there were any concerns, etc. He told me that although these batteries were designed for the powersports market, he has a lot of customers that use them on vehicles, etc. He also said that if I'm not happy, I could return the unit. He said they have a very lenient return policy and just appreciate the truth, even if the customer screws up they'll stand behind at least one battery.

I too have concerns about catching fire, etc. I built my mount so it bolts into the stock location and can be swapped out in just a few minutes with the stock battery. Having said that, the Deltran worked so well that I've never put the stock battery back in. I don't know if I'd run a cheap Chinese lithium battery like the Deltran in a $300k Ferrari, but for a disposable track car I'm not too concerned. My only real fear is if it caught fire when in storage or in the race car trailer....that I still think about.

If I did want to run the Deltran lithium in a Viper, I would probably mount two units side by side in parallel for additional reserve amps if I was leaving them in full time. For the track, one would probably get the job done.

I've also read posts of people using these for trade show displays, running ARB refrigerators, etc and no problems with taking in more than 10 amps during recharging even when the unit is discharged.....user beware.

[Arizona Vipers]

Interesting. Any worries of it exploding or catching fire when charging? These batteries are very charge-current sensitive, and it looks like this one has a maximum of 10A charge rating. If it's run down pretty far, the alternator will most certainly deliver a heck of a lot more current than that. Could potentially be an issue unless the battery is always kept at maximum voltage via a tender.

Very good point! I've read lithium batteries take 80% less power to charge over lead acid batteries. Do you still think there would be situations where the battery would see more than 10 amps?
The corvettes (and most other brands) guys have been running these for years and I've never heard of one blowing up.

[1ststrike]

Keep us up on how it works for you long term.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

I don't know speciifcly what's inside the Deltran battery but overcharging a lithium phosphate battery is a real concern and fires can occur under the right conditions. I personally know of several instances of this with another battery I'm familiar with. Too much voltage or current lead to issues. A proper charger is a necessity.

Some batteries have nothing more than a huge fuse inside, way larger than the max current (because more discharge is OK) some have intelligent circuitry to keep them from overcharging and draining too low. Might be worth contacting Deltran to be safe. Just because nothing has happened yet that we know of doesn't mean it isn't possible under the right circumstances. This said perhaps Deltran has it covered with the proper protection inside.

All of this said, awesome weight savings for the money!

[Jack B]

I ran the same battery over this summer, it never missed a beat.



Nice! Interested to see how these perform over time.

[FLATOUT]

I ran the same battery over this summer, it never missed a beat.

Awesome! Love the Braille I had but very very pricey.

[ViperGeorge]

I personally can't get over the "Dreamliner" or the Samsung Note 7. My Vipers sit in my house's garage and if a battery ever did go when I wasn't home, so goes the house. Not worth it to me. I'd sooner go on a diet and drop a few pounds than use a Lithium Ion battery, I don't care what brand it is.

[Arizona Vipers]

I personally can't get over the "Dreamliner" or the Samsung Note 7. My Vipers sit in my house's garage and if a battery ever did go when I wasn't home, so goes the house. Not worth it to me. I'd sooner go on a diet and drop a few pounds than use a Lithium Ion battery, I don't care what brand it is.
The same thing happens with lead acid batteries all the time. I've had a lead acid battery explode on me while charging it. It didn't catch fire though.
The actual battery inside most of these lithium car batteries are similar in size/energy storage to the laptop batteries in everyone's house.

[ViperGeorge]

The same thing happens with lead acid batteries all the time. I've had a lead acid battery explode on me while charging it. It didn't catch fire though.
The actual battery inside most of these lithium car batteries are similar in size/energy storage to the laptop batteries in everyone's house.

Lead Acid batteries can explode but they generally don't catch fire. When a Lithium Ion battery catches fire it is almost impossible to put out until all the fuel in the battery is consumed. By this time the car is probably a blaze.

[viper04]

Thanks for sharing the info. Maybe good for track day use.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

There are tons of "lithium" battery types and the chemistry is different in them. Some are more stable than others. Lithium Phosphate (LiFePO4) is what is typically used in automotive type batteries such as this one and is more stable and able to take abuse than the others such as what was used in the dreamliner, phones, etc.

The fact is that all lithium ion batteries require more attention to them than lead acid, but some are far more stable than others. The tolerances are narrow for what a lithium battery requires for charging. If the voltage and current requirements are ignored in lithium batteries the consequences can be greater (permanent damage to the battery for undervoltage, deep discharge, or over voltage, fire when overcharged, etc.). Get the correct charger, and correctly size the battery for the application and the risk is greatly reduced or eliminated. Even better, get a battery with internal intelligent protection and they can be very safe.

[AZTVR]

Get the correct charger, and correctly size the battery for the application and the risk is greatly reduced or eliminated. Even better, get a battery with internal intelligent protection and they can be very safe.

The big question is: "Is the Viper charging system designed to accommodate maintaining a Lithium Iron Phosphate battery safely and properly on a daily use basis?"

I find it interesting that the ACR was advertised as coming with a Lithium ion battery; but, ended up with only a Lead acid battery, I believe. I would guess that was most probably because they found that the Lithium battery CCA was not adequate for all possible street use environmental conditions. Or it could have been due to the legal liabilities. Or it could be due to the charging system design not covering all possibilities of battery charge condition.

[Jack B]

The viper has an over temp sensor that is in contact with the battery, does that help the sky from falling.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

The big question is: "Is the Viper charging system designed to accommodate maintaining a Lithium Iron Phosphate battery safely and properly on a daily use basis?"

I find it interesting that the ACR was advertised as coming with a Lithium ion battery; but, ended up with only a Lead acid battery, I believe. I would guess that was most probably because they found that the Lithium battery CCA was not adequate for all possible street use environmental conditions. Or it could have been due to the legal liabilities. Or it could be due to the charging system design not covering all possibilities of battery charge condition.

Voltage: Lithium Phosphate batteries are (generally) designed to be charged between 14.4-14.8V (ideal). Over 15V is (generally) bad, less than 14.4V is OK just not ideal for quick charging. Not sure what the Viper alternator voltage output is or more importantly what the actual voltage (after losses) would be measured at the battery (varies by battery current draw).

Current: I would not expect the current to be limited by the alternator so this would be the largest risk. A heavily drained battery could be charged over its recommenced limit which could be an issue. This is why putting a super small (capacity wise) battery with a small charging limit isn't as safe as a larger capacity battery with a larger charging limit.

I don't exactly know the function of the temp sensor, Jack, but it would need to remain in contact with the new (smaller) battery to be effective if it is indeed intended for thermal runaway protection.

[AZTVR]

I am not concerned about the Lithium battery since I have no reason to use it. I'm just interested in the engineering side of things.


Voltage: Lithium Phosphate batteries are (generally) designed to be charged between 14.4-14.8V (ideal). Over 15V is (generally) bad, less than 14.4V is OK just not ideal for quick charging. Not sure what the Viper alternator voltage output is or more importantly what the actual voltage (after losses) would be measured at the battery (varies by battery current draw).

What I was thinking of, was what about common failure modes? For instance, I don't think that a alternator/regulator set-up failing and putting out +16V is very unusual. What happens to the Lithium ion battery then? Jack's input about the temp sensor sounds like one designed in fail-safe. However, dramatic, catastrophic failures usually occur because there are more than one failure modes in play at the time. So, it ends up as a design and manufacturing cost trade off versus safety and cost of litigation. The ignorant public gets all upset when they see the rare dramatic failure, even though most everything we do or use has a catastrophic failure mode risk.

My judgement from what I have read is that using the Lithium Iron Phosphate battery is low risk. Lower than running a Viper to 150+ mph on a regular basis.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

What I was thinking of, was what about common failure modes? For instance, I don't think that a alternator/regulator set-up failing and putting out +16V is very unusual. What happens to the Lithium ion battery then?s.

The real "do not exceed" is typically 15.6V. In mild cases reduction of capacity and life span of the battery over time (cells are damaged). In more extreme cases, potential for explosion of cells.

[Jack B]

My G1 and G2 also had a thermal sensor. It has to be part of the regulator circuit, I will look in my G2 shop manual, since only the dealers get a real G5 shop manual.



Voltage: Lithium Phosphate batteries are (generally) designed to be charged between 14.4-14.8V (ideal). Over 15V is (generally) bad, less than 14.4V is OK just not ideal for quick charging. Not sure what the Viper alternator voltage output is or more importantly what the actual voltage (after losses) would be measured at the battery (varies by battery current draw).

Current: I would not expect the current to be limited by the alternator so this would be the largest risk. A heavily drained battery could be charged over its recommenced limit which could be an issue. This is why putting a super small (capacity wise) battery with a small charging limit isn't as safe as a larger capacity battery with a larger charging limit.

I don't exactly know the function of the temp sensor, Jack, but it would need to remain in contact with the new (smaller) battery to be effective if it is indeed intended for thermal runaway protection.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

My G1 and G2 also had a thermal sensor. It has to be part of the regulator circuit, I will look in my G2 shop manual, since only the dealers get a real G5 shop manual.

The Gen IV had them as well (probably Gen III too). If anything it might adjust voltage up or down based on temperature, but it would be good to know exactly what it does.

[Jack B]

Here is the answer:

08 - Electrical / 8F - Engine Systems / Battery System / SENSOR, Intelligent Battery (IBS) / Operation

OPERATION
The battery sensor measures, calculates and reports battery: voltage, current, temperature, state of charge and other parameters via a LIN (Local Interconnect Network) bus to a master control module (engine controller, body controller etc). The battery sensor is used to optimize vehicle performance (maintain battery charge, fuel economy etc) via the vehicles electrical system

The battery sensor is readable/diagnosable via a “scan tool” that can display all of the available parameters needed for vehicle servicing or trouble shooting.

Information the Intelligent Battery Sensor (IBS) send out on the CAN Bus is

SOC = Battery State of Charge: Percentage the residual charge of the battery in respect to its nominal capacity. In few words represents how much the battery is charged

SOH = Battery State of Health: Send a percentage of the real capacity of the battery in respect to the nominal capacity of the battery. It’s so called because during the functioning, the battery is subject to irreversible processes that reduce its capacity to be recharged and to give energy (battery ageing).

SOF = Battery State of Function: The prediction of the minimum voltage that will be reached during a cranking phase
When the IBS is powered up for the first time or is powered after a power disconnection, it goes into a so called “recalibration” phase, where the IBS must recognize the type of battery and its characteristics and state. So in this phase the tolerances on the state functions (SOC, SOF, SOH) are greater than in normal working condition.






The Gen IV had them as well (probably Gen III too). If anything it might adjust voltage up or down based on temperature, but it would be good to know exactly what it does.

[ek1]

I wonder if anyone ever tried to quantify the performance gain resulting from the weight loss associated with using a Lithium battery.

[AZTVR]

I wonder if anyone ever tried to quantify the performance gain resulting from the weight loss associated with using a Lithium battery.

lol !

[ek1]

lol !

I am serious :) Just trying to assess pro's and cons. We know the cons - your car may burn to the ground (possibly with you in it) if rear ended with enough force that the battery compartment is impacted; the battery in a low charge state may catch fire due to too much current supplied by an alternator; the charge may not last as long as standard battery, etc. The pro's are lower weight and constant voltage supplied regardless of the charge. The consequences of cons are pretty clear, but the consequences of the weight loss are not. For example, if it shaves .1 second off your lap time, its not worth the risk.

[ViperJon]

I wonder how come car manufacturers going for record runs at tracks don't train 90 pound jockeys.

[AZTVR]

I wonder how come car manufacturers going for record runs at tracks don't train 90 pound jockeys.

Because they can't reach the pedals.

[TrackAire]

I wonder how come car manufacturers going for record runs at tracks don't train 90 pound jockeys.


IMO, record run attempts are one or two all out laps. Weight is a huge issue on the backside that most people don't think about....brake life, brake fade, tire life, tire heat, etc. Being able to remove 100 lbs from a Viper won't effect 1 or 2 all out effort laps but there is a pretty measurable time reduction when you do 12 to 20 laps.

Does it really matter for those of use that do HPDE?....not for winning a trophy but yes on brake and tire performance after a 5 session day on the track.

Plus, it is a fun challenge to drop pounds off a car while not thrashing it......downfall is it tends to be a very expensive weight loss program, lol.

[AZTVR]

The consequences of cons are pretty clear, but the consequences of the weight loss are not. For example, if it shaves .1 second off your lap time, its not worth the risk.

The equation for weight loss versus performance gain would be complex and very vehicle dependant.

Kind of like how to calculate the risk of totalling a car due to lowering its weight and increasing lap speeds ?

At least the tiny amount of risk of a fire due to a Lithium Iron Phosphate battery failure should be covered by your insurance.

[Arizona Vipers]

Being able to remove 100 lbs from a Viper won't effect 1 or 2 all out effort laps but there is a pretty measurable time reduction when you do 12 to 20 laps.



This is the silliest thing I've ever seen on this forum. Taking 100 lbs off of a car wont effect lap times? Do you track a car? Even in just straight line acceleration in the straights, 100 lbs is going to be several car lengths difference in all straights. Where do you finally say the weight reduction results in a lower lap time? LOL. 200 pounds? 500? In an average car, 100 pounds in a 1/4 mile drag race will result in 1 tenth of a second difference. Do you know what a tenth of a second looks like on a track? And that's just 1/4 mile. On a two mile track, everything else being equal a 100 pound lighter car is going to be 10-20 car lengths ahead. And I'm only talking about acceleration advantages, not weight vs contact patch advantages.

[Arizona Vipers]

I am serious :) Just trying to assess pro's and cons. We know the cons - your car may burn to the ground (possibly with you in it) .

If you put a lithium battery in your car you risk being burned to the ground? My battery weighs 3 pounds. There are millions of Tesla's running around with a 1300 lb lithium batter in it. Out of those millions that are daily drivers, doing 20,000 miles a year, billions of miles, how many burned to the ground? If you take your cell phone with you, or your laptop, do you also risk burning to the ground?

[Mark1107]

Your funny AZ Viper...

21301


http://jalopnik.com/tesla-battery-cells-explode-like-fireworks-in-video-of-1788573241





If you put a lithium battery in your car you risk being burned to the ground? My battery weighs 3 pounds. There are millions of Tesla's running around with a 1300 lb lithium batter in it. Out of those millions that are daily drivers, doing 20,000 miles a year, billions of miles, how many burned to the ground? If you take your cell phone with you, or your laptop, do you also risk burning to the ground?

[TrackAire]

This is the silliest thing I've ever seen on this forum. Taking 100 lbs off of a car wont effect lap times? Do you track a car? Even in just straight line acceleration in the straights, 100 lbs is going to be several car lengths difference in all straights. Where do you finally say the weight reduction results in a lower lap time? LOL. 200 pounds? 500? In an average car, 100 pounds in a 1/4 mile drag race will result in 1 tenth of a second difference. Do you know what a tenth of a second looks like on a track? And that's just 1/4 mile. On a two mile track, everything else being equal a 100 pound lighter car is going to be 10-20 car lengths ahead. And I'm only talking about acceleration advantages, not weight vs contact patch advantages.

"On a two mile track, everything else being equal a 100 pound lighter car is going to be 10-20 car lengths ahead.'

The higher the horsepower a car has, the less the 100 lbs of weight is going to effect it for a hero lap. If you think a Viper ACR-E with a full tank a fuel is going to be 20 car lengths behind a Viper ACR-E with a quarter tank of fuel given equal drivers during a hero lap.....well ok, I stand corrected.

Your drag racing example is flawed since that involves moving mass from a dead stop. On the road course, the mass is already in motion....much less effected in a dash down the straightaway compared to a static drag race start. In half mile roll racing, my Viper crosses the line right at 160 mph. Add in a 250 lb passenger and it still crosses the line at 160 mph....the key is the car is already in motion when the hard acceleration starts.

Maybe I didn't do a good job in my explanation in stating that 100 lbs doesn't have an effect. Of course it has some sort of effect but not as much effect on a hero lap with cool brakes and tires that are not overheated. My point is 100 lbs will have a much more noticeable effect after a 25 minute session....brakes fade more, tires get greasier with a heavier the car.

With 645 hp, 100 lbs isn't going to make as much difference in acceleration since the car is already going at a pretty good clip everywhere on a road course.

[AZTVR]

Your funny AZ Viper...
http://jalopnik.com/tesla-battery-cells-explode-like-fireworks-in-video-of-1788573241

This allegedly had the first known application of Lithium Ion batteries to be used to start its engines. Coincidence ? :witless:

http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/image/6532018/max/280/210/bf0ae233fcfe8808c98ab2536786e148/Dj/960812-01-08-jpg.jpg

[Arizona Vipers]

"On a two mile track, everything else being equal a 100 pound lighter car is going to be 10-20 car lengths ahead.'

The higher the horsepower a car has, the less the 100 lbs of weight is going to effect it for a hero lap. If you think a Viper ACR-E with a full tank a fuel is going to be 20 car lengths behind a Viper ACR-E with a quarter tank of fuel given equal drivers during a hero lap.....well ok, I stand corrected.

Your drag racing example is flawed since that involves moving mass from a dead stop. On the road course, the mass is already in motion....much less effected in a dash down the straightaway compared to a static drag race start. In half mile roll racing, my Viper crosses the line right at 160 mph. Add in a 250 lb passenger and it still crosses the line at 160 mph....the key is the car is already in motion when the hard acceleration starts.

Maybe I didn't do a good job in my explanation in stating that 100 lbs doesn't have an effect. Of course it has some sort of effect but not as much effect on a hero lap with cool brakes and tires that are not overheated. My point is 100 lbs will have a much more noticeable effect after a 25 minute session....brakes fade more, tires get greasier with a heavier the car.

With 645 hp, 100 lbs isn't going to make as much difference in acceleration since the car is already going at a pretty good clip everywhere on a road course.

I do Time Trials and a lot of the time 1st or 2nd place in my class comes down to 1 tenth or even a couple hundredths of a second. Those couple hundreths of a second can be the difference between winning $2500 worth free Hoosier's in weekend or winning nothing. The most competitive cars in each class are the ones that are closest to their horsepower to weight ratios in their class. My '13 comes right above the 5.5 to 1 horsepower to weigh ratio and I've been first place every time. If you think me adding 100 lbs to the car wouldn't affect my lap times and my placing in my TT class your're crazy. My lap times have become much faster since reducing my '13's weight from 3300 to 3080. And I only do hero laps, 3-4 laps max.

[Arizona Vipers]

Your funny AZ Viper...

21301


http://jalopnik.com/tesla-battery-cells-explode-like-fireworks-in-video-of-1788573241

Yeah of course there's a few that have burned out of the billions of miles driven. Same with any car brand.
Just like there's phones that explode. I bet you still have a cell phone in your pocket. What are you going to do when there are no more lead acid batteries? lol

[Arizona Vipers]

this allegedly had the first known application of lithium ion batteries to be used to start its engines. Coincidence ? :witless:

http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/image/6532018/max/280/210/bf0ae233fcfe8808c98ab2536786e148/dj/960812-01-08-jpg.jpg

lmao!

[ek1]

If you put a lithium battery in your car you risk being burned to the ground? My battery weighs 3 pounds. There are millions of Tesla's running around with a 1300 lb lithium batter in it. Out of those millions that are daily drivers, doing 20,000 miles a year, billions of miles, how many burned to the ground? If you take your cell phone with you, or your laptop, do you also risk burning to the ground?

Actually, a Tesla (or any electric car) burns to the ground pretty much every time a battery compartment is impacted. Watch the video that Mark1107 posted. There are plenty more like this. Take a look at this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicle_fire_incidents. Incidentally, all modern electric cars use Li-Ion batteries.

As far as a cell phone....well....does "Galaxy Note 7" ring a bell?

[Jack B]

There are two sides to that coin, there are another billion phones that are safe.



Actually, a Tesla (or any electric car) burns to the ground pretty much every time a battery compartment is impacted. Watch the video that Mark1107 posted. There are plenty more like this. Take a look at this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicle_fire_incidents. Incidentally, all modern electric cars use Li-Ion batteries.

As far as a cell phone....well....does "Galaxy Note 7" ring a bell?

[AZTVR]

Actually, a Tesla (or any electric car) burns to the ground pretty much every time a battery compartment is impacted.

With all of those fires burning up Priuses, one wonders how Toyota has managed to sell 1.6 million of them.

[Arizona Vipers]

As far as a cell phone....well....does "Galaxy Note 7" ring a bell?

I guess that's my point, you carry around a cell phone with a lithium battery in your pocket all day.
Anyway, my post was to contribute to the Viper community a quick and cheap way to drop 20+ lbs. I've instructed my wife that if I am burned alive in the car, she needs to come reply to this thread and warn everyone.

[Arizona Vipers]

There are two sides to that coin, there are another billion phones that are safe.

Actually there are over 7 billion. More than people now! LOL. Think about how many lithium batteries are in the average household now. I've probably got well over 100. Each smoke alarm, each wireless alarm taps on the doors, windows, 4 cellphones, numerous laptops, tablets, all my Viper's, all my and my son's RC cars (we've got at least 50 just for those), I keep a Noco genius in all my families daily drivers.. I might actually have closer to 200 lithium batteries in my household.

[ek1]

With all of those fires burning up Priuses, one wonders how Toyota has managed to sell 1.6 million of them.

First of all - apologies to the OP, I did not mean to hijack this thread, but I just can't stand when incorrect info is being presented as facts.

Speaking of facts....those "millions" of Priuses sold do _NOT_ have Li-Ion batteries. Only Prius plug-in hybrid model does. All the other Prius models use Ni-Mh batteries, which can NOT be charged externally, use a different chemistry and are not prone to explosions due to impacts and/or overcharging. According to Wikipedia, 75,400 Prius PHVs have been sold worldwide since 2012. That hardly sounds like "millions".

In any event, the whole Prius argument is meaningless, because we can all be sure that Toyota has invested millions of dollars into designing their battery systems so that they can sustain impacts without exploding. I am sure that battery cells in the Prius plug-in are physically protected and have all sorts of circuitry to disable the battery in the event of impact/damage. Question is, what does the Viper have? We all know the answer to that.

This thread is about using a Li-Ion battery in a 200-mph sports car, which was designed to use a conventional battery. The location of the battery compartment seems to be inside the crumple zone, which means it will have to absorb the full force of the rear impact. So...obviously I am not saying that a Li-Ion battery will spontaneously explode out of the blue, but I _AM_ saying that it may explode and/or catch fire if the car is rear ended and the damage spreads into the battery compartment. That's when the car will burn into the ground.

The comparison with cell phones is even more meaningless. Obviously hundreds of millions of phones have been made and work without issues. But the case of Galaxy Note shows what may happen when something goes wrong - like a faulty battery design. There is actually a steady stream of incidents related to people using cheap Chinese POS chargers and causing their phones to catch fire.

The point I was trying to make (and what many posters apparently missed) is not that "Li-Ion batteries are dangerous". I was merely trying to understand a simple thing - how much faster the car will be due to weight loss associated with using a Li-Ion battery and whether that gain is worth the risks associated with situations when things go wrong. So let's stick to that subject please.

[Arizona Vipers]

If somebody doesn't care about lap times or 1/4 miles times, then they probably don't care much about weight savings and this battery isn't for them.
The actually batteries in the case are about the size of 4 D batteries. If something this small got crushed in a wreck, I'd probably be dead anyway hehe. The actual battery probably weighs less than 1 lb. The batteries in Telsa's and Volts and Leaf's etc weigh 700 to 1200 lbs.
There aren't many ways to drop weight on these cars and it's very expensive (titanium exhaust etc). The ACR has a 9 lb lighter battery than the other Viper's. It is also missing most carpet.

[ek1]

If somebody doesn't care about lap times or 1/4 miles times, then they probably don't care much about weight savings and this battery isn't for them.
The actually batteries in the case are about the size of 4 D batteries. If something this small got crushed in a wreck, I'd probably be dead anyway hehe. The actual battery probably weighs less than 1 lb. The batteries in Telsa's and Volts and Leaf's etc weigh 700 to 1200 lbs.
There aren't many ways to drop weight on these cars and it's very expensive (titanium exhaust etc). The ACR has a 9 lb lighter battery than the other Viper's. It is also missing most carpet.

See....that's exactly what I was trying to find out. "Caring" about lap times can mean a lot of things. For example, if my best time at the Glen was 2:09 and the Li-Ion battery can shave off 5 seconds, I may go for it. But if it shaves off 1 second, the juice is not worth the squeeze because the difference becomes a rounding error. But if someone is trying hard to gain that exact second, the battery replacement may be worth it for them.

[Martin]

In my opinion, it's a cool and clean install and I'm impressed that the OP went through the process of doing it. My initial reaction was to keep it on my list of things to do and give it a try when my car comes in.

Then I started thinking about various devices I have that had issues with the Li-Ion batteries. In every case, it was because I plugged my Motorola "turbo charger" into them and they got hot as hell, and the batteries were toast soon thereafter. Unless the battery is designed to handle a high-current charge, I'm too old and scared to put it right next to a tank full of gasoline and hope for the best :) Now, if the manufacturer says that the battery will handle a 85 or whatever amp charge without problem, it's a no-brainer. Reducing that much weight is definitely a good thing in my mind. But, reducing weight with something that might fail and shoot a stream of flame into the side of the gas tank just isn't worth it.

I've seen what happened to a friend who was using one of those vaping devices and he did some kind of modification to it that the Li-Ion battery didn't like - and his face and chest were much the worse for wear because of it after it exploded. Of course, because he did something that the manufacturer didn't recommend, he was SOL when it came time to try and litigate that. Just think about the hassle someone might have with their insurance company if it was found out that a Li-Ion battery that the owner installed exploded and burned their car (and possibly hurt other occupants or bystanders).

That's just not something that I'd want to chance - even with the coolness and benefits of the battery install.

[TrackAire]

In my opinion, it's a cool and clean install and I'm impressed that the OP went through the process of doing it. My initial reaction was to keep it on my list of things to do and give it a try when my car comes in.

Then I started thinking about various devices I have that had issues with the Li-Ion batteries. In every case, it was because I plugged my Motorola "turbo charger" into them and they got hot as hell, and the batteries were toast soon thereafter. Unless the battery is designed to handle a high-current charge, I'm too old and scared to put it right next to a tank full of gasoline and hope for the best :) Now, if the manufacturer says that the battery will handle a 85 or whatever amp charge without problem, it's a no-brainer. Reducing that much weight is definitely a good thing in my mind. But, reducing weight with something that might fail and shoot a stream of flame into the side of the gas tank just isn't worth it.

I've seen what happened to a friend who was using one of those vaping devices and he did some kind of modification to it that the Li-Ion battery didn't like - and his face and chest were much the worse for wear because of it after it exploded. Of course, because he did something that the manufacturer didn't recommend, he was SOL when it came time to try and litigate that. Just think about the hassle someone might have with their insurance company if it was found out that a Li-Ion battery that the owner installed exploded and burned their car (and possibly hurt other occupants or bystanders).

That's just not something that I'd want to chance - even with the coolness and benefits of the battery install.


For us none pro drivers (everybody on this forum), shaving a second off a lap for an HPDE event isn't going to matter. Heck, on average you lose 3 lbs per lap in fuel being burned so after 10 laps your car is 30 lbs lighter. Do you actually notice your fastest laps being your last ones in a session?.....usually not since by then the tires are starting to get hotter, brakes may start fading, etc causing your last lap to be slower than your earlier laps.

The Deltrans is the cheapest of the Chinese Li-Ion batteries out there and with no real information the circuitry or how they are protected in case of over charging, etc it really is not worth the gamble if you don't feel comfortable about it. I run it in my track car but would never park my track car in my household garage with my family at potential risk. The odds of a battery catching fire are extremely rare, but it is not something I'm willing to chance with the lives of my loved ones.

The reason I run it in my track car is not so much to lower lap times, but taking weight out of the car makes the tires, brakes, etc last so much longer during long track events.....and for a non pro like myself I like a car that stays predictable.

[Arizona Vipers]

In my opinion, it's a cool and clean install and I'm impressed that the OP went through the process of doing it. My initial reaction was to keep it on my list of things to do and give it a try when my car comes in.

Then I started thinking about various devices I have that had issues with the Li-Ion batteries. In every case, it was because I plugged my Motorola "turbo charger" into them and they got hot as hell, and the batteries were toast soon thereafter. Unless the battery is designed to handle a high-current charge, I'm too old and scared to put it right next to a tank full of gasoline and hope for the best :) Now, if the manufacturer says that the battery will handle a 85 or whatever amp charge without problem, it's a no-brainer. Reducing that much weight is definitely a good thing in my mind. But, reducing weight with something that might fail and shoot a stream of flame into the side of the gas tank just isn't worth it.

I've seen what happened to a friend who was using one of those vaping devices and he did some kind of modification to it that the Li-Ion battery didn't like - and his face and chest were much the worse for wear because of it after it exploded. Of course, because he did something that the manufacturer didn't recommend, he was SOL when it came time to try and litigate that. Just think about the hassle someone might have with their insurance company if it was found out that a Li-Ion battery that the owner installed exploded and burned their car (and possibly hurt other occupants or bystanders).

That's just not something that I'd want to chance - even with the coolness and benefits of the battery install.

The Braille's might be a better choice for you as they have been used for racing for many years and are much more tested versus that Battery Tender one. I have run Braille's for years with no issues, I only tried the battery tender because it's $200 versus $600+.

[Arizona Vipers]

For us none pro drivers (everybody on this forum), shaving a second off a lap for an HPDE event isn't going to matter.
The reason I run it in my track car is not so much to lower lap times, but taking weight out of the car makes the tires, brakes, etc last so much longer during long track events.....and for a non pro like myself I like a car that stays predictable.

For me, a second on a track is light years. Most people in my class will be within 1 second or less of each other. More than a half a second slower isn't even competitive.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Braille batteries contain no intelligence and are priced very high. For a very safe and robust battery I'd start here:

https://www.lithiumbatterycompany.com/

These LBC batteries are fully internally protected against all evils.

SAFETY PROTECTION
• OVER CHARGING
• OVER DISCHARGING
• SHORT CIRCUIT
• PENETRATION
• THERMAL SHOCK
• NO FIRES
• NO EXPLOSIONS

[Jack B]

Here are some generalities that apply to most automotive type lithium batteries.:

1. They have an integral solid state switch which opens the battery input when:
A. There is an over-charge (current) condition.
B. The car's charging system generates a voltage higher than that which is tolerable to the battery.
C. The battery has an over temperature condition.

2 A lithium battery is a mass of smaller cells that are connected in both parallel and series. The biggest issue that cannot be totally controlled is an insulation failure between parallel strings. The manufacturers have to make that insulation very thin so they can increase the energy density. That is the biggest issue with the lithium, the problem is, all the safety protocols (no matter which mfg) cannot protect against that type of fault, which is the most common.

With all that said, I have been running the Battery Tender 2.9 lb battery all year.



Braille batteries contain no intelligence and are priced very high. For a very safe and robust battery I'd start here:

https://www.lithiumbatterycompany.com/12vbattery/

These LBC batteries are fully internally protected against all evils.

SAFETY PROTECTION
• OVER CHARGING
• OVER DISCHARGING
• SHORT CIRCUIT
• PENETRATION
• THERMAL SHOCK
• NO FIRES
• NO EXPLOSIONS

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Jack, I think you might be over estimating some of these batteries. From the Braille $1600 battery spec:


Warranty is a guarantee against manufacturer defects. Jump starting, deep discharge and other abuse will void warranty.

I've opened some of these batteries and there is only a large fuse. Not speaking for any brands, but some are not protected inside as well as they should be. All I'm saying is that some batteries, like the LBC above, have complete intelligent circuit boards inside to prevent the above conditions. Many do not, or only protect against some failure modes or extreme failures. For my money, for Braille money, I would expect complete protection not a warranty exception.

I can't speak for the battery tender battery, I don't know what is inside. I just know how lithium batteries can fail when not treated properly.

[ek1]

Braille batteries contain no intelligence and are priced very high. For a very safe and robust battery I'd start here:

https://www.lithiumbatterycompany.com/12vbattery/

These LBC batteries are fully internally protected against all evils.

SAFETY PROTECTION
• OVER CHARGING
• OVER DISCHARGING
• SHORT CIRCUIT
• PENETRATION
• THERMAL SHOCK
• NO FIRES
• NO EXPLOSIONS


So which AH rating would be a direct replacement for a stock battery? LBC has 10,20,30,40, 50 and 100AH

[SSGNRDZ_28]

So which AH rating would be a direct replacement for a stock battery? LBC has 10,20,30,40, 50 and 100AH

I can't say for sure since I haven't tried them but 30-50AH should suffice. If you don't use the radio or electronics, don't drive at night, in the rain, etc., etc. you can get away with lower. Depends on how you use the car or how safe you want to be. I might order one and try it out although driving time is seasonally limited now.

[ek1]

I can't say for sure since I haven't tried them but 30-50AH should suffice. If you don't use the radio or electronics, don't drive at night, in the rain, etc., etc. you can get away with lower. Depends on how you use the car or how safe you want to be. I might order one and try it out although driving time is seasonally limited now.

I have an old Land Rover that I am going to drive to Canada and back this winter and was thinking about taking one of these Li-Ion batteries as a spare with me just in case the current battery dies. It's got a 5L S/C V8 and I am planning to use all electronics, etc. One of the issues with these batteries seems to be that they dont charge below 32F. It should be OK due to all the heat in the engine compartment, but still....

[SSGNRDZ_28]

I have an old Land Rover that I am going to drive to Canada and back this winter and was thinking about taking one of these Li-Ion batteries as a spare with me just in case the current battery dies. It's got a 5L S/C V8 and I am planning to use all electronics, etc. One of the issues with these batteries seems to be that they dont charge below 32F. It should be OK due to all the heat in the engine compartment, but still....

Yeah this is true, they don't necessarily charge well under freezing temps (other than super low current). They can still be discharged, but charging currents should be reduced below freezing.

[Snorman]

For us none pro drivers (everybody on this forum), shaving a second off a lap for an HPDE event isn't going to matter. Heck, on average you lose 3 lbs per lap in fuel being burned so after 10 laps your car is 30 lbs lighter. Do you actually notice your fastest laps being your last ones in a session?.....usually not since by then the tires are starting to get hotter, brakes may start fading, etc causing your last lap to be slower than your earlier laps.Very good point. I seriously doubt anybody here is going to even notice a 20-25# weight savings. Let's be serious here. There will be more variables from tire temps and pressure, atmospheric conditions, etc. than a few #'s saved with a battery. To me, it's not worth it.
If you are running endurance races, where you're saving the energy of moving that weight around the track for 12, 14 or 24 hours, that's a different story.
S.

[TrackAire]

I have an old Land Rover that I am going to drive to Canada and back this winter and was thinking about taking one of these Li-Ion batteries as a spare with me just in case the current battery dies. It's got a 5L S/C V8 and I am planning to use all electronics, etc. One of the issues with these batteries seems to be that they dont charge below 32F. It should be OK due to all the heat in the engine compartment, but still....

This is off topic, but in my wife's 2013 Range Rover SC, the battery failed after about 24 months. It just would not start the car, some days it would and then some days it wouldn't. The dealer checked it, it was defective and was covered under warranty.

The problem (and this is why I'm bring it up) is it is a very strange shaped battery.....very long and skinny. Not sure if yours is the same and if you'll find it easily on your trip if you need one and not near a Land Rover dealer. If yours is over 4 to 5 years old, I would suggest replacing the battery with a new one before your trip.

The Li-Ion battery jumps starters available from Anti Gravity, Walmart, etc will have no trouble jump starting your Rangie. They also have USP ports, lights, etc so you can use them for other stuff too. Plus they are tiny and designed to be stored in a carrying case with all the cables and adapters. Here is a sample...there are probably 50 different versions on the market.

https://www.amazon.com/Antigravity-Batteries-Battery-Starter-Charger/dp/B01BLW52SK/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1480050695&sr=8-10&keywords=anti+gravity+jump+starter

[ek1]

This is off topic, but in my wife's 2013 Range Rover SC, the battery failed after about 24 months. It just would not start the car, some days it would and then some days it wouldn't. The dealer checked it, it was defective and was covered under warranty.

The problem (and this is why I'm bring it up) is it is a very strange shaped battery.....very long and skinny. Not sure if yours is the same and if you'll find it easily on your trip if you need one and not near a Land Rover dealer. If yours is over 4 to 5 years old, I would suggest replacing the battery with a new one before your trip.

The Li-Ion battery jumps starters available from Anti Gravity, Walmart, etc will have no trouble jump starting your Rangie. They also have USP ports, lights, etc so you can use them for other stuff too. Plus they are tiny and designed to be stored in a carrying case with all the cables and adapters. Here is a sample...there are probably 50 different versions on the market.

https://www.amazon.com/Antigravity-Batteries-Battery-Starter-Charger/dp/B01BLW52SK/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1480050695&sr=8-10&keywords=anti+gravity+jump+starter

Funny enough, mine is a 2013 as well :) and I JUST got the battery replaced by the dealer last weekend (also under warranty). I am pretty sure the new battery will last for a few years and yes, it's the same as yours - long and skinny. My concern is that the battery may have died due to something else (like an alternator) being broken or something similar. That's why I wanted a Li-Ion spare. Nothing beats a feeling of standing on a shoulder of some mountain road during a snow storm with no cell phone reception. Don't ask me how I know :)

[Arizona Vipers]

Very good point. I seriously doubt anybody here is going to even notice a 20-25# weight savings. Let's be serious here. There will be more variables from tire temps and pressure, atmospheric conditions, etc. than a few #'s saved with a battery. To me, it's not worth it.
If you are running endurance races, where you're saving the energy of moving that weight around the track for 12, 14 or 24 hours, that's a different story.
S.

Did you read my post? In my Time Trials class the top cars are within hundredths of a second of each other. Hundredths. Adding or taking off 22 lbs on a car, just in the straights (not counting the increased cornering ability of the lighter car), would account for much more than hundredths of a second. So when you say "I seriously doubt anybody here is going to even notice a 20-25# weight savings" you are wrong, because I do notice and I am "here". Anyone here that is tracking a car 10/10ths and doing Time Trials or wheel to wheel racing will and does notice. Yes there are variables in tire temps etc, so all the more reason to have a CONSISTENT which is a lighter car. If 22 lbs didn't matter, why does the ACR have tweeters for speakers and no carpet and 9 lb lighter battery? LOL. Tell Tom O'dell and Chris Winkler to put the carpet and speakers back in since it wont matter. And I guess the factory engineers that put a carbon fiber roof/hood/decklid they did it for no reason as well. That probably added $10K to the price of the car to save what 20 lbs? 30?

[38D]

Every 20lbs is ~0.1 second on a 1 minute lap, which I agree is very noticeable.

[TrackAire]

Braille batteries contain no intelligence and are priced very high. For a very safe and robust battery I'd start here:

https://www.lithiumbatterycompany.com/12vbattery/

These LBC batteries are fully internally protected against all evils.

SAFETY PROTECTION
• OVER CHARGING
• OVER DISCHARGING
• SHORT CIRCUIT
• PENETRATION
• THERMAL SHOCK
• NO FIRES
• NO EXPLOSIONS

Thanks for posting a link to those batteries....I like their design much more for a daily driven vehicle that can be parked in my home garage. Price isn't outrageous either. One of our clients builds high end expedition type vehicles for the Australian market and uses high end Li-Ion batteries for both the starting and house batteries......at $1500.00 each. IIRC each vehicle has at least 3 of them on the truck. But, they are very impressed with the results.

[Arizona Vipers]

This is off topic, but in my wife's 2013 Range Rover SC, the battery failed after about 24 months. It just would not start the car, some days it would and then some days it wouldn't. The dealer checked it, it was defective and was covered under warranty.

The problem (and this is why I'm bring it up) is it is a very strange shaped battery.....very long and skinny. Not sure if yours is the same and if you'll find it easily on your trip if you need one and not near a Land Rover dealer. If yours is over 4 to 5 years old, I would suggest replacing the battery with a new one before your trip.

The Li-Ion battery jumps starters available from Anti Gravity, Walmart, etc will have no trouble jump starting your Rangie. They also have USP ports, lights, etc so you can use them for other stuff too. Plus they are tiny and designed to be stored in a carrying case with all the cables and adapters. Here is a sample...there are probably 50 different versions on the market.

https://www.amazon.com/Antigravity-Batteries-Battery-Starter-Charger/dp/B01BLW52SK/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1480050695&sr=8-10&keywords=anti+gravity+jump+starter


Check these out, I have a few and they work well- https://no.co/

[Arizona Vipers]

Braille batteries contain no intelligence and are priced very high. For a very safe and robust battery I'd start here:

https://www.lithiumbatterycompany.com/12vbattery/

These LBC batteries are fully internally protected against all evils.

SAFETY PROTECTION
• OVER CHARGING
• OVER DISCHARGING
• SHORT CIRCUIT
• PENETRATION
• THERMAL SHOCK
• NO FIRES
• NO EXPLOSIONS

Looks like this one would work well in our cars- https://www.lithiumbatterycompany.com/12v/20ah
Would just need to figure out what adaptors are needed to connect it..

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Thanks for posting a link to those batteries....I like their design much more for a daily driven vehicle that can be parked in my home garage. Price isn't outrageous either. One of our clients builds high end expedition type vehicles for the Australian market and uses high end Li-Ion batteries for both the starting and house batteries......at $1500.00 each. IIRC each vehicle has at least 3 of them on the truck. But, they are very impressed with the results.

Yes I have tried many lithium batteries on non-vehicle projects. One "brand B" failed after 6 months, probably due to deep discharge. These so far keep on ticking. These are reasonably priced and safe from catastrophic and the more common non-catastrophic failures you might see such as simply draining it below 10.5 V. I've talked to the owner and they've even gone as far as shooting them with guns to see if they would catch fire.


Looks like this one would work well in our cars- https://www.lithiumbatterycompany.com/12v/20ah
Would just need to figure out what adaptors are needed to connect it..

I happen to have a few here. The terminals are M6 for the 20AH battery.

[ViperGeorge]

Yes I have tried many lithium batteries on non-vehicle projects. One "brand B" failed after 6 months, probably due to deep discharge. These so far keep on ticking. These are reasonably priced and safe from catastrophic and the more common non-catastrophic failures you might see such as simply draining it below 10.5 V. I've talked to the owner and they've even gone as far as shooting them with guns to see if they would catch fire.



I happen to have a few here. The terminals are M6 for the 20AH battery.

What kind of maintenance charger do you use for one of these lithium batteries? If it was posted already, sorry, I missed it.

Also, none of these batteries is the same size as the standard battery, so what are people doing to secure it? The 30AH battery is closer but still smaller.

[Arizona Vipers]

Also, none of these batteries is the same size as the standard battery, so what are people doing to secure it? The 30AH battery is closer but still smaller.

Take a look at my first post, I'm using this- https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
What's cool about it is you can change batteries anytime if you want. I always keep my factory battery as a spare in my race trailer and with this strap can easily swap it in.

[Arizona Vipers]

A quick update on this battery, this morning when I got to the track to unload the ACR from the trailer, I found the battery dead. Either I left the ignition on or the Smarty Cam stayed on.
I took my factory battery and jumped the lithium battery using jumper cables which would have obviously exceeded the 10 amp input charge limit on the battery tender battery and the car fired right up. No fire. You guys made me nervous as hell so I had the fire extinguisher ready to go but thankfully didn't need it.

[Jack B]

When you jumped the battery, your jumper battery supplied the current to the starter, it did not pass through the lithium battery (they were in parallel). There may have been some current increase into the Lithium, however, it would also have been limited by the voltage drop on the jumper battery.

Here is an interesting read:

U-304b: Making Lithium-ion Safe

Learn all sides to make lithium-ion safe

Battery packs using Li-ion require a mandatory protection circuit to assure safety under (almost) all circumstances. Governed by IEC 62133, the safety of Li-ion cell or packs begins by including some or all of the following safeguards.

Built-in PTC (positive temperature coefficient) protects against current surges.
CID (circuit interrupt device) opens the circuit at a cell pressure of 1,000kPa (145psi).
Safety vent releases gases on excessive pressure buildup at 3,000kPa (450psi).
Separator inhibits ion-flow by melting process when exceeding a certain temperature threshold.
(See BU-306: What is the Function of the Separator?)

In addition to internal cell safeguards, an external electronic protection circuit prevents any cell from exceeding 4.30V on charge. In addition, a fuse cuts the current if the skin temperature of any cell approaches 90°C (194°F). To prevent the battery from over-discharging, a control circuit cuts off the current path at about 2.20V/cell.

Each cell in a string needs independent voltage monitoring. The higher the cell count, the more complex the protection circuit becomes. Four cells in series had been the practical limit for consumer applications. Today, off-the-shelf chips also accommodate 5–7, 7–10 and 13 cells in series. For specialty applications, such as the hybrid or electric vehicle delivering several hundred volts, specialty protection circuits are made. Monitoring two or more cells in parallel to get higher current is less critical than controlling the voltage in a string configuration.

Protection circuits can only shield abuse from the outside, such as an electrical short or faulty charger. If, however, a defect occurs within the cell, such as a contamination of microscopic metal particles, the external protection circuit has little effect and cannot arrest the reaction. Reinforced and self-healing separators are being developed for cells used in electric powertrains, but this makes the batteries large and expensive.

Li-ion commonly discharges to 3.0V/cell. The lowest permitted “low-voltage” power cut-off is 2.5V/cell. It is not advised to keep the battery at that level as self-discharge could bring the cell to its cut-off voltage, causing the battery to go into sleep mode. Most chargers ignore Li-ion packs that have gone to sleep and a charge is no longer possible. (See BU-808a: How to Awaken Sleeping Li-ion.)

In the ON position, the internal protection circuit has a resistance of 50–100mOhm, lower on power packs. The circuit typically consists of two switches connected in series; one is responsible for the high cut-off, and the other for the low cut-off. Larger packs need a more careful design than a smaller battery, and single cell packs for mobile phones and tablets get away with a voltage and current limit in addition to some intrinsic cell protection. (See BU-802a: How does Rising Internal Resistance affect Performance?)

Some low-cost consumer chargers may rely solely on the battery’s protection circuit to terminate the charge. Redundancy is paramount for safety, and unknowingly to the buyer, low-cost consumer chargers may be offered that do not have properly functioning charge algorithms. This could be a vehicular charger for a mobile phone or an e-cigarette.

A further concern arises if static electricity has destroyed the battery’s protection circuit. A shorted solid-state switch is permanently fused in the ON position without the user knowing. A battery with a faulty protection circuit functions normally but it fails to provide protection. The cell voltage could rise above a safe level and overcharge the battery. Heat buildup and bulging are early signs of malfunction, but some batteries explode without warning.

Low prices make products from Asia attractive, but safety standards my not be equal to those in branded products. A wise shopper spends a little more money and buys recognized brands. (See BU-809a: What Everyone Should Know about Aftermarket Batteries.)

Figure 1 shows batteries in equipment that disintegrated in a passenger aircraft before takeoff.

Battery Fire Figure 1: Li-ion exploded in cargo bay of an passenger aircraft
Mishap by air traveler who checked in Li-ion batteries undeclared that exploded before take-off. Shipping of lithium-based batteries is regulated under UN 38.3.

Source: The Daily Telegraph;
Sydney 23C-34C


Manufacturers of lithium-ion batteries do not mention the word “explosion” but refer to “venting with flame” or “rapid disassembly.” Although seen as a slower and more controlled process than explosion, venting with flame or rapid disassembly can nevertheless be violent and inflict injury to those in close proximity.

Simple Guidelines for Using Lithium-ion Batteries

Exercise caution when handling and testing lithium-ion batteries.
Do not short-circuit, overcharge, crush, drop, mutilate, penetrate with foreign objects, apply reverse polarity, expose to high temperature or disassemble packs and cells.
Use only lithium-ion cells with a designated protection circuit and approved charger.
Discontinue using the battery and/or charger if the pack temperature rises more than 10ºC (18ºF) on a regular charge.
The electrolyte is highly flammable and battery rupture can cause physical injury.
Use a foam extinguisher, CO2, dry chemical, powdered graphite, copper powder or soda (sodium carbonate) to extinguish a lithium-ion fire. Only pour water to prevent the fire from spreading.
If the fire of a burning lithium-ion battery cannot be extinguished, allow the pack to burn out on its own in a controlled and safe manner.




A quick update on this battery, this morning when I got to the track to unload the ACR from the trailer, I found the battery dead. Either I left the ignition on or the Smarty Cam stayed on.
I took my factory battery and jumped the lithium battery using jumper cables which would have obviously exceeded the 10 amp input charge limit on the battery tender battery and the car fired right up. No fire. You guys made me nervous as hell so I had the fire extinguisher ready to go but thankfully didn't need it.

[AZTVR]

Manufacturers of lithium-ion batteries do not mention the word “explosion” but refer to “venting with flame” or “rapid disassembly.” Although seen as a slower and more controlled process than explosion, venting with flame or rapid disassembly can nevertheless be violent and inflict injury to those in close proximity.

I like that phrase, "venting with flame."
I watched an interview with Bob Lutz while the Chevy Volt was in development. The interviewer said that he had heard that there was an issue with a fire with a Chevy Volt battery pack. Bob Lutz smiled and said, "Our engineers call it a thermal event."

[SSGNRDZ_28]

I've been in contact with Lithium battery co, I've worked with them in the past. The above link I posted does not really have any batteries they recommend for vehicle starting because the battery management systems in those are not really designed for starting applications may become damaged over time.

They have recommended a battery for the Viper application, it is one that is not on the website. The list price is ~$500, it weighs 8.4 lbs. I am looking to see if I can get a better price from them.

They recommend a specific charger, they have a deal with Pro Charging Systems with dedicated algorithms for their batteries. Anyway I'm looking into this further.

Doug

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Please see my post above, I just want to make sure everyone sees they have another battery that is specific for charging applications so none of these are really ideal for a vehicle.

Thanks
Doug


So which AH rating would be a direct replacement for a stock battery? LBC has 10,20,30,40, 50 and 100AH


Thanks for posting a link to those batteries....I like their design much more for a daily driven vehicle that can be parked in my home garage. Price isn't outrageous either. One of our clients builds high end expedition type vehicles for the Australian market and uses high end Li-Ion batteries for both the starting and house batteries......at $1500.00 each. IIRC each vehicle has at least 3 of them on the truck. But, they are very impressed with the results.


Looks like this one would work well in our cars- https://www.lithiumbatterycompany.com/12v/20ah
Would just need to figure out what adaptors are needed to connect it..


What kind of maintenance charger do you use for one of these lithium batteries? If it was posted already, sorry, I missed it.

Also, none of these batteries is the same size as the standard battery, so what are people doing to secure it? The 30AH battery is closer but still smaller.

[ViperGeorge]

I've been in contact with Lithium battery co, I've worked with them in the past. The above link I posted does not really have any batteries they recommend for vehicle starting because the battery management systems in those are not really designed for starting applications may become damaged over time.

They have recommended a battery for the Viper application, it is one that is not on the website. The list price is ~$500, it weighs 8.4 lbs. I am looking to see if I can get a better price from them.

They recommend a specific charger, they have a deal with Pro Charging Systems with dedicated algorithms for their batteries. Anyway I'm looking into this further.

Doug

Doug, There are a lot of "Don'ts" in the document you attached. For example Don't store for long periods unless battery is half charged. How would that work on a Viper when some people store their cars for months at a time? They are also very specific about charging voltage and current. Would a Viper alternator meet their parameters?

Do you know where the battery is made? From the "English" used in the document I would say some where overseas. China maybe? That's not a slam on foreign goods but some countries are more reliable than others when it comes to living up to manufacturing standards and stating the truth about their products. (Lead painted toys anyone?)

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Doug, There are a lot of "Don'ts" in the document you attached. For example Don't store for long periods unless battery is half charged. How would that work on a Viper when some people store their cars for months at a time? They are also very specific about charging voltage and current. Would a Viper alternator meet their parameters?

Do you know where the battery is made? From the "English" used in the document I would say some where overseas. China maybe? That's not a slam on foreign goods but some countries are more reliable than others when it comes to living up to manufacturing standards and stating the truth about their products. (Lead painted toys anyone?)

George, I don't know for sure I will ask. I do trust these guys know what they are doing so these are good questions.

[ViperGeorge]

George, I don't know for sure I will ask. I do trust these guys know what they are doing so these are good questions.

Thanks Doug. I guess we all would want to know if the battery would in fact function well and safely in a Viper given it would be exposed to temperature extremes (-20F to +120F in some places and I've even driven my Viper in sub-freezing weather), vibration, storage for long periods, and the Viper's charging system. Saving like 40-50 pounds would be pretty freakin awesome and the price point is much better than Braille. It does seem like they have just about every safety feature would could imagine for a Lithium Ion battery, maybe Boeing should have reached out to these guys for their expertise.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Thanks Doug. I guess we all would want to know if the battery would in fact function well and safely in a Viper given it would be exposed to temperature extremes (-20F to +120F in some places and I've even driven my Viper in sub-freezing weather), vibration, storage for long periods, and the Viper's charging system. Saving like 40-50 pounds would be pretty freakin awesome and the price point is much better than Braille. It does seem like they have just about every safety feature would could imagine for a Lithium Ion battery, maybe Boeing should have reached out to these guys for their expertise.

I have an email to them and will continue to ask questions as they come up. They already told me
It has been used in several race car applications throughout the world sold by LBC.

A spec sheet of this level of detail is not something you often see for a battery. Only a few companies actually make the LiFePo cells (A123 is one of them). The poorly translated part of this document seems to relate to the cells themselves, and warnings seem to pertain to individual cells and also design guidelines for those designing and assembling battery packs. What matters IMO is the design of the package when assembled which is what these guys seem to be good at, so many of the warnings will be negated once you have the finished battery.

As for the temperature spec, I would say page 2 covers that, -20C(-4F)-45C(113F) for charging and 3 month storage; -20(-4F)-60C(140F) for discharge and 1 month storage; -20C(-4F)-25C(77F) for 6 month storage.

Boeing was using a chemistry that isn't as safe to begin with but still these seem to be fully protected as much as reasonably possible.

[Arizona Vipers]

Saving like 40-50 pounds would be pretty freakin awesome and the price point is much better than Braille.

You wont save that much weight. The factory battery weighs 31.6 lbs, the ACR battery is 24.3 lbs

[ViperGeorge]

You wont save that much weight. The factory battery weighs 31.6 lbs, the ACR battery is 24.3 lbs

Ok, I gotta say the battery in my TA seems way heavier than that. Could be I'm just getting old and weak. Yea, that's it.

[Arizona Vipers]

Ok, I gotta say the battery in my TA seems way heavier than that. Could be I'm just getting old and weak. Yea, that's it.


hehe. Maybe there are bigger ones than the one in my '13. Mind didn't have the bigger stereo, does yours?

[ViperGeorge]

hehe. Maybe there are bigger ones than the one in my '13. Mind didn't have the bigger stereo, does yours?

Yes, it has the 18 speaker stereo but that was a dealer installed upgrade.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Here is some more info from LBC. PS Arizona sorry for hijacking this thread if I pursue anything with this I'll start my own.




The battery is supposed to be used for engine starting and then the alternator charges it back up. It is not really designed for someone that is going to start their car and run their radio or other electronics that will drain the battery down past the recovery point. It could be stored connected with the charger but you will only lose less then 3% capacity each month. The battery does not need to be discharged every 6 months. It would be best just to keep it charged. Lithium loves to stay charged and you will increase the life span of the battery.

The alternators are doing a great job of charging the batteries. I have a 12V 100AH lithium ion battery in my mustang. I have some RV clients that have reported that their alternators are charging our storage batteries very efficiently. I do not think you will have to worry to much about charging off of the vehicle.

You are good with extreme conditions. We have the batteries being used in +160* F temperatures. The battery is bolted together for extreme vibrations and g forces.

The battery packs are made with one of our contracted factories in China. We use only high discharge cells for this type of battery. This battery has been very successful with our military used to start lighting carts. I would want to put this battery into an application that is only used for starting and will be immediately charged back up. Its not good for people that want to run their electronics separately for long periods of time.


Anyway, I will probably get one of these, evaluate the install, monitor the voltage when the car isn't running to see how long it will last off the charger, and see where it goes.

[ViperGeorge]

Here is some more info from LBC. PS Arizona sorry for hijacking this thread if I pursue anything with this I'll start my own.



Anyway, I will probably get one of these, evaluate the install, monitor the voltage when the car isn't running to see how long it will last off the charger, and see where it goes.

So, running electronics with the car running shouldn't be a problem as the alternator would be supplying voltage. What they are saying is don't just run the electronics unless the car is running, correct?

Any ideas on mounting or will you figure that out when you get one?

[TrackAire]

Here is some more info from LBC. PS Arizona sorry for hijacking this thread if I pursue anything with this I'll start my own.



Anyway, I will probably get one of these, evaluate the install, monitor the voltage when the car isn't running to see how long it will last off the charger, and see where it goes.


"It is not really designed for someone that is going to start their car and run their radio or other electronics that will drain the battery down past the recovery point."

Just to clarify his response....I think he meant to say that it is not for somebody that turns off the engine and then wants to listen to music, run interior lights, etc for an extended time. From my experience, if the car is running and the alternator is producing volts/amps, you're good to go running your radio, lights, ac, etc for as long as you want.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

So, running electronics with the car running shouldn't be a problem as the alternator would be supplying voltage. What they are saying is don't just run the electronics unless the car is running, correct?

Any ideas on mounting or will you figure that out when you get one?


"It is not really designed for someone that is going to start their car and run their radio or other electronics that will drain the battery down past the recovery point."

Just to clarify his response....I think he meant to say that it is not for somebody that turns off the engine and then wants to listen to music, run interior lights, etc for an extended time. From my experience, if the car is running and the alternator is producing volts/amps, you're good to go running your radio, lights, ac, etc for as long as you want.

Correct. He's just saying don't go crazy running the battery down to 10V all the time, because you'd have a dead battery (the circuit will shut the output off and would
Need a charge). If the engine is running you're going to be OK.

George I'll probably order tomorrow and figure out what's needed for mounting.

[ViperGeorge]

Did they say anything about the 12V 30ah battery? Looks to be about the same weight as the 18ah you posted about and about the same dimensions. Would the 30ah be a better option? Or is there something different about the 18ah one that makes it better for vehicle use?

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Did they say anything about the 12V 30ah battery? Looks to be about the same weight as the 18ah you posted about and about the same dimensions. Would the 30ah be a better option? Or is there something different about the 18ah one that makes it better for vehicle use?

The 18Ah is designed for vehicle starting applications with high discharge cells that produce a higher CCA number and modified protection electronics to accommodate vehicle starting. The 30Ah is designed for lower peak current draw, not the high loads required to start a vehicle. The 30aH would probably work in the short term but would probably not last as long since it isn't designed for a starting application.

[ViperGeorge]

The 18Ah is designed for vehicle starting applications with high discharge cells that produce a higher CCA number and modified protection electronics to accommodate vehicle starting. The 30Ah is designed for lower peak current draw, not the high loads required to start a vehicle. The 30aH would probably work in the short term but would probably not last as long since it isn't designed for a starting application.

Thanks! Good to know.