Oil Level Reality versus Misinformation

[Jack B]

There have been several threads on reading the dip stick and what a safe oil level are. There has been a lot of misleading posts, mostly due to the difficulty in reading the dipstick. i took a few measurements and applied some simple math, here are some details, keep in mind, the pan was on the car, my guess is that the following are within +/- 10% accuracy. i am going to cross check my data (true pan oil level) with an IR camera this week.

1. The pan has approximately 250 sq inches of surface area at the normal oil level.

2. One quart has a volume of 57.75 cu in

3. The oil level in the pan goes up one inch per *4.3 qt. This will vary a little bit, as the level goes up it takes more volume per inch. At 11 quarts of fill the level in the pan is in the 2.5"-3" range.

4. When at the 9-11 qt level, adding the following will result in a **movement of X on the dipstick:
A. One quart: .27"
B. One pint: .14"

5. Just a guess, if you measure the total oil that bleeds back into the pan after five minutes past shut down, it is probably less than a pint. My point, the oil will only move on the dipstick less than .14". This also means that measuring at the five minute mark (after shut down) and the 24 hour mark do not make a big diff. In other words either one works, the stick is just easier to read at the 24 hour mark.

* 10% conservative (lowers the level required per inch)
** Takes into account an approximate30 degree angle of entry for the dipstick.

I am going to take an infrared picture of the pan when it is hot, this will allow me to get the oil level so that i can cross check the data above.

[ViperGeorge]

There have been several threads on reading the dip stick and what a safe oil level are. There has been a lot of misleading posts, mostly due to the difficulty in reading the dipstick. i took a few measurements and applied some simple math, here are some details, keep in mind, the pan was on the car, my guess is that the following are within +/- 10% accuracy. i am going to cross check my data (true pan oil level) with an IR camera this week.

1. The pan has approximately 250 sq inches of surface area at the normal oil level.

2. One quart has a volume of 57.75 cu in

3. The oil level in the pan goes up one inch per *4.3 qt. This will vary a little bit, as the level goes up it takes more volume per inch. At 11 quarts of fill the level in the pan is in the 2.5"-3" range.

4. When at the 9-11 qt level, adding the following will result in a **movement of X on the dipstick:
A. One quart: .27"
B. One pint: .14"

5. Just a guess, if you measure the total oil that bleeds back into the pan after five minutes past shut down, it is probably less than a pint. My point, the oil will only move on the dipstick less than .14". This also means that measuring at the five minute mark (after shut down) and the 24 hour mark do not make a big diff. In other words either one works, the stick is just easier to read at the 24 hour mark.

* 10% conservative (lowers the level required per inch)
** Takes into account an approximate30 degree angle of entry for the dipstick.

I am going to take an infrared picture of the pan when it is hot, this will allow me to get the oil level so that i can cross check the data above.

Jack, while I generally believe that math provides the best way to analyze things I have to disagree with your conclusions. In the "Damn Dipstick" thread I posted pictures of my dipstick when cold. The car recently had the oil changed and was filled with exactly 11 quarts of oil. Checking it after running engine and then shutting it down results in an oil level precisely at the top of the safe zone. I let the car sit 2 weeks without starting it and then pulled the stick and checked the oil. The oil level was inches above safe, see the pictures. I pulled it a second time and it was still over the safe zone by quite a bit, in fact it was as far over safe as the safe zone is in length.

Bottom line, I still say check within 5 minutes after shutdown. The engineers have confirmed to me in writing that the oil level can vary substantially if checked cold. Why take the chance?

[Jack B]

I will be changing my oil soon, i will drain the engine immediately after shutting it down. After the main drain process, I will put a container in the drain funnel to see how much bleeds down pass the five minute mark and over night. As I said, I will verify the level in the pan with my ir camera, this will cross check my math.

In your case, to move an inch, there is something unusual. That movement is way more than a quart, and the engine is not going to trap a 1-2 quarts after the five minute mark.



Jack, while I generally believe that math provides the best way to analyze things I have to disagree with your conclusions. In the "Damn Dipstick" thread I posted pictures of my dipstick when cold. The car recently had the oil changed and was filled with exactly 11 quarts of oil. Checking it after running engine and then shutting it down results in an oil level precisely at the top of the safe zone. I let the car sit 2 weeks without starting it and then pulled the stick and checked the oil. The oil level was inches above safe, see the pictures. I pulled it a second time and it was still over the safe zone by quite a bit, in fact it was as far over safe as the safe zone is in length.

Bottom line, I still say check within 5 minutes after shutdown. The engineers have confirmed to me in writing that the oil level can vary substantially if checked cold. Why take the chance?

[swexlin]

Jack, I had asked this in another thread. Do you know how much the "safe" range represents - is it a 1 or 2-quart range from top to bottom of the hashmarks?

Good stuff, thanks.

[ChevyChad]

Does all your math take into account the volume displaced by the crankshaft and pistons that may or may not be protruding past the plane of what you are considering the normal oil level?

[ViperJon]

There is absolutely no possible way that the difference between cold and hot can be inches....or even an inch. I have studied this on my car countless times and the difference between hot and stone cold a week later is about an 1/8" of an inch. So Jack's hypothesis is correct IMO. One pint or less drains back.

[Jack B]

There are no rotating parts in the oil. There are oil pick up parts though, that is why I used offsets to make the Calc conservative. I am going to check the true level today.


Does all your math take into account the volume displaced by the crankshaft and pistons that may or may not be protruding past the plane of what you are considering the normal oil level?

[Coloviper]

Want to solve this once and for all, someone needs to pony up the money to throw some "Dust" nano sensors in with their next oil change and then track it with that associated machine. Been used in various industries for years and I doubt a nano dust fleck will hurt anything. Anyway they can be tracked similar to a Hida scan which shoots nuclear tracker agent into you blood system to then track that tracer real time. Caught my defective gall bladder days before it was ready to burst. Sounds like science fiction but is not. Used for leak detection in crucial industry processes. If there is partial blockage in a key part or channel internally, then it could affect the drainage and throw a reading off like that. Don't have this issue on my old Viper or Saleens but our Cayennes can show as much as a 1.5 quart difference at times from stone cold to fully heated. Hope you guys figure it out. Resumed my used GEN V funding but not pulling a trigger until this is all understood along with the extent of motor blowing issues.

[myoungs]

My understanding is that it has more to do with oil in the dipstick tube causing a false reading.

[ViperGeorge]

I will be changing my oil soon, i will drain the engine immediately after shutting it down. After the main drain process, I will put a container in the drain funnel to see how much bleeds down pass the five minute mark and over night. As I said, I will verify the level in the pan with my ir camera, this will cross check my math.

In your case, to move an inch, there is something unusual. That movement is way more than a quart, and the engine is not going to trap a 1-2 quarts after the five minute mark.

Jack,

I too thought it was strange but it has read way higher cold every time I've checked. It was confirmed by the engineers that this was entirely possible. Either way still seems easy enough to check it when warm after shutdown. See below for the response directly from the engine engineer at SRT.

“So like we discussed – the 15MY has the updated dipstick to decrease the likelihood of wiping (has the s-bend in it) – so it should be easier to read on his car vs. previous years.

· The method you’ve mentioned (where the vehicle is warmed then sits for 5 minutes before checking the oil) is definitely the best method and you’re right, that is exactly what is in the manual.
o The reasoning behind it is that the engine will trap oil in galleries, components, etc and as you let the engine sit, that oil eventually drains down to the pan. Thus showing higher on the stick when your car sits for a while. Having the warm oil level at the full mark 5 minutes after turning the car off ensures that there is the correct amount of oil in the car.
o To answer your other question – it’s certainly reasonable to see large swings in oil level using those two methods to check the level. I would even recommend checking it within 1 minute of the 5 minute mark after shutting the car off – waiting to 10 minutes would probably show a completely different reading.
o Additional Note: It says this in the manual, but be sure to park on level ground – not doing that can change the oil level dramatically as well.”

[donk_316]

You would think a 0 weight oil at operating temp would mostly be drained back to the pan within 5 minutes of shut down.

Nevertheless I always check my oil at every fuel up and when I come up (I park with my hood up so checking oil is easy enough)

I refuse to lose my engine due to laziness and then crying to Dodge about it.

[mjorgensen]

Jack,

I too thought it was strange but it has read way higher cold every time I've checked. It was confirmed by the engineers that this was entirely possible. Either way still seems easy enough to check it when warm after shutdown. See below for the response directly from the engine engineer at SRT.

“So like we discussed – the 15MY has the updated dipstick to decrease the likelihood of wiping (has the s-bend in it) – so it should be easier to read on his car vs. previous years.

· The method you’ve mentioned (where the vehicle is warmed then sits for 5 minutes before checking the oil) is definitely the best method and you’re right, that is exactly what is in the manual.
o The reasoning behind it is that the engine will trap oil in galleries, components, etc and as you let the engine sit, that oil eventually drains down to the pan. Thus showing higher on the stick when your car sits for a while. Having the warm oil level at the full mark 5 minutes after turning the car off ensures that there is the correct amount of oil in the car.
o To answer your other question – it’s certainly reasonable to see large swings in oil level using those two methods to check the level. I would even recommend checking it within 1 minute of the 5 minute mark after shutting the car off – waiting to 10 minutes would probably show a completely different reading.
o Additional Note: It says this in the manual, but be sure to park on level ground – not doing that can change the oil level dramatically as well.”

Something to note, most people feel that their garage is a good place to check the oil but garage floors are built with a slope to drain, it may not feel like it is but it is and with the long flat pan in the Viper it can make a dramatic difference.

[swexlin]

Something to note, most people feel that their garage is a good place to check the oil but garage floors are built with a slope to drain, it may not feel like it is but it is and with the long flat pan in the Viper it can make a dramatic difference.

Understood, but it's the flattest place I have! I always check it there, so at least it consistent!

[Rocket]

Another oil level thread? Us Gen 1 - 4 owners find this laughable.

[ViperJon]

Another oil level thread? Us Gen 1 - 4 owners find this laughable.

Then they should stay in their own forum.

[Rocket]

:t0152::t0152:Unfortately - when you click on show new posts - that strategy does not work. I've never been an us vs them person for any viper no matter the year, gen, paint scheme (Dolphin excluded) - and the constant rehashing is getting old.

And this coming from an enthusiast. :h1504:

[swexlin]

Rocket, understood, but it is a serious issue for us. You guys aren't loosing engines like we are.

[AZTVR]

:t0152::t0152:Unfortately - when you click on show new posts - that strategy does not work. I've never been an us vs them person for any viper no matter the year, gen, paint scheme (Dolphin excluded) - and the constant rehashing is getting old.

And this coming from an enthusiast. :h1504:

What I find that works is, that the title of the thread often gives a hint of what is being discussed.
If I don't like what is being discussed, I don't read the thread. This works great for me when watching TV also. As soon as I see the start of any political ad, I change channels or hit the skip button on the DVR.

[swexlin]

Jack, we're all waiting! At least I am.....lol

[ek1]

My biggest issue is not even the hot/cold oil levels or when to check them. It's the fact that the damn stick is IMPOSSIBLE to read. No matter how many times I pull it out, clean it and put it back in, I can never tell between the actual oil level and the oil smudges from the tube. That's the infuriating part.

[ViperJon]

My biggest issue is not even the hot/cold oil levels or when to check them. It's the fact that the damn stick is IMPOSSIBLE to read. No matter how many times I pull it out, clean it and put it back in, I can never tell between the actual oil level and the oil smudges from the tube. That's the infuriating part.

ek1....let the car sit overnight or couple days. After it's settled on the first pull it should be a nice clean easy level read, no smear.
It should be at or ideally about a 1/8" above the full zone. Done you're good.

[dmann]

Good gief, My car is not even here but one of the first things i'll do is check the oil.
Being that the oil is trapped in the dipstick tube until it drains, why not pull the dipstick as soon as the engine is turned off, then 5 minutes later check it?

[Jack B]

I took IR pics last night. I have to download them tonight.


Jack, we're all waiting! At least I am.....lol

[ek1]

Good gief, My car is not even here but one of the first things i'll do is check the oil.
Being that the oil is trapped in the dipstick tube until it drains, why not pull the dipstick as soon as the engine is turned off, then 5 minutes later check it?

Because regardless of when you pull the stick (5 seconds, 5 minutes, 5 hours), all you see is a mess of smudges and oil stains. There is NEVER a clear line showing where the oil level is unless you let the car sit for days. But that, of course, would give you an incorrect oil level according to the manual.

My plan is to do something similar to what ViperJon suggested - I'll do an oil change right before I store the car for the winter. Because the amount of oil in the engine would be perfect right after the oil change, I'll let the car sit for around a week after the change, pull the stick, measure the oil level and record it. Going forward I will only measure oil level after the car sat for a few days and only when it's sitting in the same spot in my garage.

[ViperGeorge]

I will be changing my oil soon, i will drain the engine immediately after shutting it down. After the main drain process, I will put a container in the drain funnel to see how much bleeds down pass the five minute mark and over night. As I said, I will verify the level in the pan with my ir camera, this will cross check my math.

In your case, to move an inch, there is something unusual. That movement is way more than a quart, and the engine is not going to trap a 1-2 quarts after the five minute mark.

Jack, you should warm up the engine and then only let the car drain 5 minutes and then measure what comes out after 5 minutes until oil completely stops coming out. I think this would most closely mirror the procedure in the manual. I'd be interested to know how much comes out after those 1st 5 minutes. I know when I change my oil it takes like a good 30 minutes or more for the oil to completely stop coming out of the drain plug.

[Jack B]

That is the plan


Jack, you should warm up the engine and then only let the car drain 5 minutes and then measure what comes out after 5 minutes until oil completely stops coming out. I think this would most closely mirror the procedure in the manual. I'd be interested to know how much comes out after those 1st 5 minutes. I know when I change my oil it takes like a good 30 minutes or more for the oil to completely stop coming out of the drain plug.

T

[Jack B]

The following pictures are not 100% conclusive, however, I believe they do back up my pure math calculations. The graph lines show the area above the horizontal ridge is running hotter that the line below the ridge. This picture was taken immediately after shutdown and the oil in the pan was cooler than the air above the oil, therefore, the reason for the delta between the two graph lines. Basically, the oil level is at the horizontal ridge line which coincides with my calculations. Anything is possible, but, the calcs seem correct.

20775


20776


20777

[j_dub_168]

Hi all, I may be totally new to VOA as I just picked up my 2016 ACR-E but isn't there an oil cooler that sits higher than the pan, thus causing potential differences between hot and cold/sitting for a long time? Personally I would try the 11 litre method at the next oil change and use whatever mark that is as my cold mark... Happy to be corrected as I am a total newbie... Thx!

[ViperJon]

Hi all, I may be totally new to VOA as I just picked up my 2016 ACR-E but isn't there an oil cooler that sits higher than the pan, thus causing potential differences between hot and cold/sitting for a long time? Personally I would try the 11 litre method at the next oil change and use whatever mark that is as my cold mark... Happy to be corrected as I am a total newbie... Thx!

Congrats and welcome to the ACR-E club jdub. Since you mentioned you are doing a 500 mile oil change, would suggest you send an oil sample off to Blackstone to get a base reading. There is a thread about it here, search for the Blackstone oil results thread. When you drain your oil let it sit draining at least an hour to make sure you get all the residual oil out. Be sure the car is horizontal and maybe ever so slightly higher on the passenger side as the oil drain is on the drivers side. Then put 10-1/2 quarts in and run it for a few minutes. Shut down wait five minutes and take a reading. See where you are on the dipstick. It may need the additional 1/2 quart or it may not. I have found the full eleven quarts makes me overfilled a bit. Add as needed to bring you up to the top of the "Full" mark.

Anyway, once you have established the correct amount of oil is in the car hot..the next day or few days after check it cold. Those readings hot and cold should be close but you can use either for future reference. Wherever the cold reading is when you know the car has the proper amount of oil is equally accurate as the five minute after hot reading. Personally I do both. Use the correct Genuine Mopar 5038041AA Oil Filter.

[j_dub_168]

Awesome, thx ViperJon! Great advice! I will check out Blackstone too and see if they can do an analysis as well as undertake the procedure you just outlined for checking oil level. Btw, how bad is it to overfill? Is it as bad as it was back in the day with Chevy motors where it would stress the main seals and gaskets, not to mention issues with foaming etc due to too much crankshaft submersion etc? Thx!

[dmann]

I checked the oil level yesterday and see what you guys are referring too. Its a little hard to distinguish where the oil line is but after getting it in the right light was able to get a solid reading.
I did use the 5 minute rule. There is so much to learn on these cars :)