THe 800lb Guerilla

[ViperGeorge]

I've posted this thought a couple of times but no one has really taken the bait so I thought I would dedicate a thread to the topic. With FCA denying warranty claims on engines that have or at one time had the Arrow Controller installed what does this do to the used Viper market? Most if not all dealers won't run through any kind of diagnostic that would confirm that at one time the Arrow Controller was installed. In fact my understanding is that the two engines that were denied warranty claims did not even have the Arrow Controllers installed at the time of failure. Remember it literally takes 2 minutes to swap the OEM PCM back in.

Given this customers of used Vipers might be buying a car which they and the dealer thinks is covered by a full powertrain warranty. What happens when it isn't? Isn't FCA setting up their dealer network as the fall guys? Questionable business practice for sure. It is hard to believe that someone at FCA doesn't realize this. Are they really that stupid?

[KB Viper]

i see exactly what you are saying and you are right. if someone traded in a Viper that once had the pcm and it was low milgage and a couple years old the assumption would be its a warrenty car. someone walks in, buys the viper, spings the bearing and under investigation its a warrenty denied car. who's eating the cost on that? I' getting my motor rebuilt so I can fix my oil buring and not worry about this anymore.

[ACRSNK]

It will be interesting to see exactly how this plays out. Major problem.

[Vprbite]

When I bought my current viper they were able to tell me how many starts since the battery replacement. Wouldn't you at least be able to see how many starts since the ECU was put in? Making people leery if it's a low number like 12 or something. And if it's a high number, say 190, if a dealership can't tell the computer was swapped how would dodge know it ever was? I'm honestly curious about this. Thanks in advance for any answers.

[Terminator02]

When I bought my current viper they were able to tell me how many starts since the battery replacement. Wouldn't you at least be able to see how many starts since the ECU was put in? Making people leery if it's a low number like 12 or something. And if it's a high number, say 190, if a dealership can't tell the computer was swapped how would dodge know it ever was? I'm honestly curious about this. Thanks in advance for any answers.

No a dealer would know by analyzing the odometer miles vs the PCM miles. The problem is many dealers won't do this as standard protocol prior to selling the vehicle. Some on here claim it's the prospective buyers due diligence but I disagree as many won't know to ask this as they aren't forumites and it's not a widely published issue. For that, I'd say if an owner ran into that problem it's on the dealer that sold the vehicle.

Hopefully fca will at least give protocols to dealerships but again there's another problem. Many used vipers end up on non fca lots and I just don't see any solution to that. It's a very muddy situation currently and the best we can do is advise all prospective owners on this forum to the issue and what exactly to check pre-purchase.

Dave

[Steve M]

I can't see ever buying one, but it has nothing to do with the warranty - too many minor issues were carried over from the previous generation (leaking oil cooler lines, shoddy window regulators), and too many major issues have cropped up (exploding rear glass, motors spinning bearings, oil consumption, differential issues, etc.). I know some cars are fine, but there are enough that aren't that it would make me leery of ever upgrading...I'd feel like I was driving a ticking time bomb, and would always be worried that the car would go tits up just after the warranty expires. Just look at how many guys are paranoid to use their rear window defroster...that just doesn't seem like an enjoyable owner experience to me.

I've never placed value on a manufacturer's warranty...I had enough issues with GM's warranty process, and Chrysler appears to be as bad or worse. Car's burning oil? Oh, you must be driving it like a race car. Spun a bearing? Race car. Yeah, there's Magnuson-Moss, but I don't have the time or inclination to lawyer up, and that's exactly what they're counting on.

[Bruce H.]

I don't think the used Viper market will be affected at all,

I don't think used car dealers face any different challenge regarding buying and selling high performance cars that they know have a high likelihood of having been modified. It's their business to know all about the cars they buy, this is what they do, and it's never been the manufacturers responsibility to cover them if they screw up. Reputable dealers do their job better, and provide better after-sale service.

And I don't think that buyers who do their due diligence are suddenly sheep being led to the slaughter. Any simple Google search for Viper buying advise leads you to this site where all areas of concern are exhaustively discussed, and where responses to any request for advise are enthusiastically given. I would suggest that buyers of Vipers are already familiar with how to research and buy cars, and those that want to be careful will be. And it's not FCA's or our responsibility to protect those who aren't.

The process of buying and selling a car like the Viper hasn't changed...the use of the Arrow controller is just one more item on a long list.

I think buyers of used Vipers would be well advised to determine if an Arrow controller has ever been used on the car. If they are unable to do that, and if that is a deal breaker for them, then they should simply walk and go to a dealer that is willing and able to provide that information. If one has been used, or not knowing isn't a deal breaker, then they can negotiate the purchase accordingly. Perhaps some dealers will offer their own warranty.

Caveat Emptor, the principle that the buyer alone is responsible for checking the quality and suitability of goods before a purchase is made, is still the rule that both dealers and consumers need to follow when purchasing a Viper or any other car for resale or ownership. FCA has no more responsibility for care in this area than when dealers loaded up inventory of highly optioned cars in 2013, and I'm sure they are doing all they can behind the scenes to address the issue as best as they can. Providing the extended warranty is just the part that we have seen...so far.

Bruce

[parabs]

It's wrong, but for the time being people in the market for a gen 5 need to set aside $$ for a rebuild. Any prospective buyers that google "2013-2017 viper problems" or similar and they will get scared away, probably. Gen 5 vipers will be an interesting case study down the road.

(I say this from the perspective as one day planning to buy a 2014 black TA.)

[vipernm]

No a dealer would know by analyzing the odometer miles vs the PCM miles. The problem is many dealers won't do this as standard protocol prior to selling the vehicle. Some on here claim it's the prospective buyers due diligence but I disagree as many won't know to ask this as they aren't forumites and it's not a widely published issue. For that, I'd say if an owner ran into that problem it's on the dealer that sold the vehicle.

Hopefully fca will at least give protocols to dealerships but again there's another problem. Many used vipers end up on non fca lots and I just don't see any solution to that. It's a very muddy situation currently and the best we can do is advise all prospective owners on this forum to the issue and what exactly to check pre-purchase.

Dave

Ok. So given that I'm in the market for a 13-14 and I'll be buying from an FCA dealer how does the Tech verify this? By using the scan tool to verify the odometer and PCM mileages are the same?

Or maybe an easier (but more stringent) decision rule is to only consider those cars that have the extended powertrain warranty. Downside is the number of available cars would be significantly reduced.

[Terminator02]

Ok. So given that I'm in the market for a 13-14 and I'll be buying from an FCA dealer how does the Tech verify this? By using the scan tool to verify the odometer and PCM mileages are the same?

Or maybe an easier (but more stringent) decision rule is to only consider those cars that have the extended powertrain warranty. Downside is the number of available cars would be significantly reduced.

Nope you got it. Just have the dealer scan and make sure the odometer and ecu miles match up. Congrats on your decision to purchase, it's a great vehicle.

[SRT_BluByU]

If I'm not mistaken I think when you trade in a car there is a std dealer form you sign in finance office with other paperwork stating you haven't tampered with any emission control devices. I could reasonably see how this might have some implications if an issue arises.

[JM25]

Don't the service logs show when the Arrow PCM/ECU was calibrated for the car? I remember a thread where someone posted vehicle history info/service logs, and it showed the date the new PCM/ECU was programmed.

[Stealth78]

It's wrong, but for the time being people in the market for a gen 5 need to set aside $$ for a rebuild. Any prospective buyers that google "2013-2017 viper problems" or similar and they will get scared away, probably. Gen 5 vipers will be an interesting case study down the road.

(I say this from the perspective as one day planning to buy a 2014 black TA.)

Your first sentence is why you can pretty much guarantee that 50% of prospective buyers are now removed. Hardcore guys that frequently race, and then another portion the Prospective buyers can swallow that, but there is a huge portion of people that cannot. For someone who just wants a Viper to cruise around, have fun, and some only put 1,000-3,000 miles a year, telling them they need to have money for a rebuild set aside is ludicrous and will very likely deter them from buying a Viper.

[ViperJon]

I wouldn't be surprised if they have dealers run any Gen V that comes in for any service to flag it for future warranty issues as a matter of course.
Speed up the denial process.

[Stealth78]

Another portion of this that I do not believe anyone has mentioned in determining future value. There are a lot of GenV's on the market that were lemon'd or had buybacks, also others that had R28 and also had Arrow PCM's which also overrides the newfound extended warranty. So all of these cars that are in the $60k's and $70k's are sitting and cluttering up the GenV market and people who are not on the forum and are not avidly following this don't know why and just assume that's where the market is. Bigger problem those cars for the majority aren't going anywhere, and even worse if someone inquires about one on the forum people tell you to just stay clear and buy a better car (more respectable Viper). Anyhow with all that being said it had me so spooked I went and bought a low mileage mint condition GenIV.

[Terminator02]

Another portion of this that I do not believe anyone has mentioned in determining future value. There are a lot of GenV's on the market that were lemon'd or had buybacks, also others that had R28 and also had Arrow PCM's which also overrides the newfound extended warranty. So all of these cars that are in the $60k's and $70k's are sitting and cluttering up the GenV market and people who are not on the forum and are not avidly following this don't know why and just assume that's where the market is. Bigger problem those cars for the majority aren't going anywhere, and even worse if someone inquires about one on the forum people tell you to just stay clear and buy a better car (more respectable Viper). Anyhow with all that being said it had me so spooked I went and bought a low mileage mint condition GenIV.

Pointless to discuss future value at this point. Spun bearings have occurred with each model year and even the r28 cars of almost 4 years old, at some point, will have plenty of miles pointing to a strong sign the engine is fine or already replaced or rebuilt. Gen lV cars can be had at great prices right now for many models as owners are upgrading to gen V. launch editions still sell well as do the 14-15 TA cars regardless of recalls. It's definitely far from doom and gloom.

[uberpube]

I dunno, I buy used SRT vehicles without a warranty on purpose, it's discounted and I know I get to mess with it without worrying about de-valueing it further. The GEN V is the only new car I have ever purchased, I have no intentions of modding it.

[ViperSmith]

I wouldn't be surprised if they have dealers run any Gen V that comes in for any service to flag it for future warranty issues as a matter of course.
Speed up the denial process.
I'd be shocked if this isn't SOP now

[Stealth78]

Pointless to discuss future value at this point. Spun bearings have occurred with each model year and even the r28 cars of almost 4 years old, at some point, will have plenty of miles pointing to a strong sign the engine is fine or already replaced or rebuilt. Gen lV cars can be had at great prices right now for many models as owners are upgrading to gen V. launch editions still sell well as do the 14-15 TA cars regardless of recalls. It's definitely far from doom and gloom.

Sorry to say but future value in my mind is as early as tomorrow, and this thread was started with what our thoughts are as this unfolds. I'm not saying certain models won't bring more of a premium, but it may not be as much as some would like to believe, there has been a one owner Orange TA in AZ that has been struggling to pull $80K on eBay, I think it has been listed a couple times now back to back and not sure if it sold yet or not. Your car was bought at a very desirable price and that other Orange TA in NH also sold sub $80K about a month ago. I'm not trying to discredit these cars, I would love to have one, but I'm not going to pay more than a reasonable price. You cannot deny that the topic at hand has had some bearing in the devaluation of these cars, period.

[swexlin]

I'd be shocked if this isn't SOP now

Harold or Jon - not sure what you mean "flagged"? Meaning dealers will now have to get special permission for any warranty work before they can proceed? This is already the case for 16s and 17s.

[ViperGeorge]

You install an after market part or over drive a car - FCA is no different than any other factory warranty denied.

Dealers are buying the car and selling the car that has no warranty - what does FCA have to do with it?

I think the difference is that the PCM is a stealth mod. You swap in the original PCM before you trade it and the only way a dealer would know is if they compare mileage between the PCM and the odometer. I know of no dealer that is currently doing that. And this would not cover dealers that aren't FCA dealers. They would buy a one year old Viper and simply assume it has a warranty. They would not even have the necessary equipment to check the mileage as this requires the Witech (or whatever it is called). Again the PCM isn't like headers or cats, you can easily see they were modified. Even a H&C car would have the cam lope when it ran.

As far as I remember the only thing the seller of the car certifies is that the mileage on the odometer is correct. You don't say there has never been a mod to the car, at least where my cars are registered that's the case.

[AZTVR]

Ok. So given that I'm in the market for a 13-14 and I'll be buying from an FCA dealer how does the Tech verify this? By using the scan tool to verify the odometer and PCM mileages are the same?

Or maybe an easier (but more stringent) decision rule is to only consider those cars that have the extended powertrain warranty. Downside is the number of available cars would be significantly reduced.

Your second statement about only considering extended powertrain warranty cars does not preclude the need to check whether the powertrain warranty would actually be honored, as you mention in your first statement.

[ViperJon]

Harold or Jon - not sure what you mean "flagged"? Meaning dealers will now have to get special permission for any warranty work before they can proceed? This is already the case for 16s and 17s.

Purely conjecture but I would not be shocked.....What I meant was that you bring your car into a Dodge dealer for any reason, even basic servicing. FCA has a directive to all dealers that when a Gen V is brought in to check the PCM mileage against odometer mileage and note it. If they are out of whack with each other the VIN is flagged in case of future powertrain issues.

[Terminator02]

Sorry to say but future value in my mind is as early as tomorrow, and this thread was started with what our thoughts are as this unfolds. I'm not saying certain models won't bring more of a premium, but it may not be as much as some would like to believe, there has been a one owner Orange TA in AZ that has been struggling to pull $80K on eBay, I think it has been listed a couple times now back to back and not sure if it sold yet or not. Your car was bought at a very desirable price and that other Orange TA in NH also sold sub $80K about a month ago. I'm not trying to discredit these cars, I would love to have one, but I'm not going to pay more than a reasonable price. You cannot deny that the topic at hand has had some bearing in the devaluation of these cars, period.

What I think the biggest problem is, is that our community gets non owners chiming in with constant price devaluations. I do agree at this very point in time, the bearings issue is affecting not only sales of every model year but every generation. I'd say you are an exception that would bypass a gen V to go to a 4. Most will just leave viper. I see relatively anemic pricing on all models now. I'm seeing gen 4s going for lower than I've seen. Gen lls which I owned and followed for years have always been "at the bottom only going to go up soon."

For me it's pretty simple, we have as viper owners the last of big NA V10 power plants with exotic looks, low production and manual transmission. Those all are tic boxes to collectibility. If our values are low, we as the community are primarily to blame secondary to FCA or any issues. I'm a broken record on the topic but it's true. NSX, boss and terminator mustangs, and plenty of more common vehicles have stronger resale due to the community.

The controller issue will pass and yes I do agree with you to an extent regarding current selling trends. I would not want to be in a position to want or have to sell right now.

[parabs]

...the bearings issue is affecting not only sales of every model year but every generation....

100% agree with you on this.

The gen 5's are newer, far more opulent, and more powerful when compared on paper to previous gens. If a gen 5 sells for 60k that crushes gen 3 and 4 valuations. That sore of data is the ultimate levarage to deal on cars. Lemon law, spun bearing, pcm, etc all included. The only cars exempt from this list would be accident history vehicles in my opinion.

I could care less though, I have my car to drive it. And I could care less on the history of the 14 TA I plan to purchase one day, but you're damn sure that I will compare "current market" value when I deal.

Viper = an incredible car. I'm working on a deal on a 2010 acr to add to my 2005 because they are incredible cars!

[Stealth78]

What I think the biggest problem is, is that our community gets non owners chiming in with constant price devaluations. I do agree at this very point in time, the bearings issue is affecting not only sales of every model year but every generation. I'd say you are an exception that would bypass a gen V to go to a 4. Most will just leave viper. I see relatively anemic pricing on all models now. I'm seeing gen 4s going for lower than I've seen. Gen lls which I owned and followed for years have always been "at the bottom only going to go up soon."

For me it's pretty simple, we have as viper owners the last of big NA V10 power plants with exotic looks, low production and manual transmission. Those all are tic boxes to collectibility. If our values are low, we as the community are primarily to blame secondary to FCA or any issues. I'm a broken record on the topic but it's true. NSX, boss and terminator mustangs, and plenty of more common vehicles have stronger resale due to the community.

The controller issue will pass and yes I do agree with you to an extent regarding current selling trends. I would not want to be in a position to want or have to sell right now.

All I can say as a true Viper lover is that I hope this gets ironed out. Also I didn't mean to stir waters with the GenIV comment, it was just what I was more comfortable with right now. For me to get into a desirable GenV (color and/or model) financially I would have had to sell my SRT Ram, which I love. I couldn't see selling it to give up having two "fun cars" that potentially if one breaks down I can still drive the other, to get into another that has an unfortunate record of being more likely to have an issue. I still plan on eventually buying a GenV but I want to see if there is eventually a better resolution to what has been going on.

[Stealth78]

100% agree with you on this.

The gen 5's are newer, far more opulent, and more powerful when compared on paper to previous gens. If a gen 5 sells for 60k that crushes gen 3 and 4 valuations. That sore of data is the ultimate levarage to deal on cars. Lemon law, spun bearing, pcm, etc all included. The only cars exempt from this list would be accident history vehicles in my opinion.

I could care less though, I have my car to drive it. And I could care less on the history of the 14 TA I plan to purchase one day, but you're damn sure that I will compare "current market" value when I deal.

Viper = an incredible car. I'm working on a deal on a 2010 acr to add to my 2005 because they are incredible cars!

I beg to differ. I gladly just spent over $60K on my GenIV, but it had the specific color and wheels I would have ordered from the factory myself. Has a documented paper trail and also under 2,000 miles when purchased.

[Dman]

I wouldn't be surprised if they have dealers run any Gen V that comes in for any service to flag it for future warranty issues as a matter of course.
Speed up the denial process.

Yea, this would be logical.

I've never cared about viper warranties before either. Gen5 is the first to really tackle this issue. But, it is no different than other cars, buying used, they could've been modded and de-modded and warranty voided when taken to a dealer. Only nuance with gen5s is that there's a known engine fail problem stock for some unknown percent, so it complicates things a bit for those who care.

Getting the mileage differential data store checked should be a SOP for buyers who care, pay for it if you have to, worth proving a 10 yr engine warranty for sure. Unfortunately you can't trust sellers, even dealers, many either dont disclose or just don't know. We had a thread on here for a dealer selling a used H/C car and they didn't know what they had in mods. Vipers are rare, which makes them great, but also hard for honest people to even be honest due to ignorance about them.

I don't think it's a material impact to the market, how many race controllers were sold vs gen5s sold, and then what percent will have the controller swap a hidden item? Seems low, but maybe more were done than I think, dunno, but it'd be smart to get an FCA dealer to run the check, cheap insurance for those wanting the assurance.

[sadil]

One of the reasons I bought new was to ensure my car was fresh from the factory with a full warranty. If i was flexible with my options and colours, i would have waiting for a clean used car to arrive and would have done the research. But i specifically wanted a black TA1. In the future I might get the same questions I had if I try to sell. Just a nature of having a car that has history of engine issues. Dodge is smart to not change out all engines like Porsche did with the GT3 issue. It introduces the opportunity to vet cars on a case to case basis post failure instead of blowing all the money at once to replace engines. Porsche didnt care about the money because A) it was a safety issue involving fires and B) they care more for their reputation and know that it would be worth the money to step up and keep customers happy and confident about the Porsche brand. That is the difference between a car company who wants to retain ownership and support their buyers vs one that is trying to eliminate a product and not put the money in to suppoet existing customers. Really sad and unfortunate.

[Terminator02]

All I can say as a true Viper lover is that I hope this gets ironed out. Also I didn't mean to stir waters with the GenIV comment, it was just what I was more comfortable with right now. For me to get into a desirable GenV (color and/or model) financially I would have had to sell my SRT Ram, which I love. I couldn't see selling it to give up having two "fun cars" that potentially if one breaks down I can still drive the other, to get into another that has an unfortunate record of being more likely to have an issue. I still plan on eventually buying a GenV but I want to see if there is eventually a better resolution to what has been going on.

Ha I hear ya man but you didn't stir any pot. I just meant you are rarer that you would bypass a gen V and go for an older gen as opposed to just go and cross shop like most. You are a viper lover and made a smart decision IMO. My main bone of contention is we have too many wanna have viper owners lowering community values and when they get in one and realize they could buy it but not afford it they go and not maintain it and then the degradation of the car and brand continues. Just my theory.

Dave

[ViperJon]

The buying process going forward won't be any different than when you buy a used exotic, you get a PPI done at an unrelated dealer with no skin in the game for a few hundred bucks. Nobody buys a used Lambo without a full PPI done unless they're nuts or really rolling the dice. Same thing here if you really want reassurance.

[donk_316]

That's a pretty valid point. No one buys a used Ferrari or lambo without an independent PPI first.

[ViperGeorge]

One of the reasons I bought new was to ensure my car was fresh from the factory with a full warranty. If i was flexible with my options and colours, i would have waiting for a clean used car to arrive and would have done the research. But i specifically wanted a black TA1. In the future I might get the same questions I had if I try to sell. Just a nature of having a car that has history of engine issues. Dodge is smart to not change out all engines like Porsche did with the GT3 issue. It introduces the opportunity to vet cars on a case to case basis post failure instead of blowing all the money at once to replace engines. Porsche didnt care about the money because A) it was a safety issue involving fires and B) they care more for their reputation and know that it would be worth the money to step up and keep customers happy and confident about the Porsche brand. That is the difference between a car company who wants to retain ownership and support their buyers vs one that is trying to eliminate a product and not put the money in to suppoet existing customers. Really sad and unfortunate.

While Porsche did replace all of the GT3 engines previous problems they had with their 996 was not handled so eloquently. There was quite a bit of discontent among Porsche owners on that and maybe that is why Porsche stepped up to the GT3 issue.

[Terminator02]

Sadly the majority of viper owners don't do these ppi inspections nor will know what to ask for unless they are informed buyers. Most won't pony up the cash. We as a community found out about the warranty denials from two members on this forum and that's it. Sure one can argue common sense says a modified ecu voids warranty but that seemed to allude the way the controllers were sold in the first place. More importantly the average buyer or dealer isn't even going to know to check for mileage discrepancy outside of a true mopar dealer at best. The vipers ending up at lambo, bmw, Porsche dealerships will due due diligence but they aren't going to find the saca and disc saga. They will find out the cars value and a few other minor points like auction value. They won't value the viper much at all nor invest time in the viper outside of what low ball to give.

Fca doesn't give a shit about transparency so I don't expect much to change at all from here on out.

[ViperGeorge]

The problem as I see it with this whole denial of warranty thing is that FCA opened a can of worms and now has put dealers and prospective customers of used Gen 5s at risk. This risk is far greater to FCA's reputation and points to the stupidity of their warranty denials. They should have just replaced the damn engines as customer good will. Look at all the existing and future customers their decision is pissing off. It would have been one thing if the two engines in question were the only two to spin bearings but they KNOW there is a problem with the Gen 5 otherwise they wouldn't have issued R28, installed a block cleaning station at CAAP, extended power train warranties, and sued the block supplier.

After they lowered the price on Gen 5s they sent everyone that had purchased one prior a certificate for $15K off another Viper. They didn't have to do this but they realized if they didn't those early customers would have felt they were screwed and they would be pissed. That was $15K for almost everyone that bought a 13/14 Gen 5. Now FCA can't seem to understand that not replacing the two engines under warranty is essentially have the same effect that not issuing the $15K certificates would have had. And this to save maybe a total of $30K. Really, really stupid.

[swexlin]

I think we all agree, that Saca's and Disc's motors should have been replaced, period. Like you said, FCA could have said "warranty is void, but we're replacing as goodwill" that would have gone a LONG way. I'm in the mortgage business. I can't tell you how many times my company has made things happen for our clients - lender credits, extensions, better rates, all in the name of goodwill, and getting people into their homes. Period. Even when things that went wrong through the process may or may not have been the client's fault.

I'll echo what many here have said, basically, the Viper is dead, and FCA doesn't give a damn. 10 year warranty or no, a few years down the line, will it be honored? Hell, you can't even get parts now - the door flags are already impossible to get, per another thread. And Reshtov and one other are waiting on engines, and the car is in production. How about five years from now, will we even be able to GET a new motor, if something goes bad? The 8.4 L V10 is going away. If a new motor is not available, will FCA have to pay for a rebuild of the blown up motor? That will be an interesting process.

[ViperGeorge]

I think we all agree, that Saca's and Disc's motors should have been replaced, period. Like you said, FCA could have said "warranty is void, but we're replacing as goodwill" that would have gone a LONG way. I'm in the mortgage business. I can't tell you how many times my company has made things happen for our clients - lender credits, extensions, better rates, all in the name of goodwill, and getting people into their homes. Period. Even when things that went wrong through the process may or may not have been the client's fault.

I'll echo what many here have said, basically, the Viper is dead, and FCA doesn't give a damn. 10 year warranty or no, a few years down the line, will it be honored? Hell, you can't even get parts now - the door flags are already impossible to get, per another thread. And Reshtov and one other are waiting on engines, and the car is in production. How about five years from now, will we even be able to GET a new motor, if something goes bad? The 8.4 L V10 is going away. If a new motor is not available, will FCA have to pay for a rebuild of the blown up motor? That will be an interesting process.

All true but even though the Viper will be no more, many of us have bought other FCA vehicles as well. They aren't just jeopardizing Viper purchases they are putting other sales at risk.

[swexlin]

Correct - here is a list of Chryslers I have purchased since 1994 (all bought new, unless stated otherwise):
1994 Wrangler
1996 Ram 1500 5.9L (factory ordered)
1997 Ram 2500 V10
2000 Dodge Neon (factory ordered)
2004 Ram 3500 Cummins
2007 SRT8 Charger Superbee (I miss this car)
2003 Viper (purchased used
April 2010)
2013 Dart 1.4L Turbo
2013 Viper (purchased used October 2014)
2016 Ram 1500 5.7 Hemi

I should mention also that my (now ex) girlfriend through those years also bought a 1997 Intrepid, 2000 Neon, and 2008 Avenger.

[ViperGeorge]

Correct - here is a list of Chryslers I have purchased since 1994 (all bought new, unless stated otherwise):
1994 Wrangler
1996 Ram 1500 5.9L (factory ordered)
1997 Ram 2500 V10
2000 Dodge Neon (factory ordered)
2004 Ram 3500 Cummins
2007 SRT8 Charger Superbee (I miss this car)
2003 Viper (purchased used
April 2010)
2013 Dart 1.4L Turbo
2013 Viper (purchased used October 2014)
2016 Ram 1500 5.7 Hemi

Yea, here's my list.

1993 Grand Cherokee
1998 Viper RT 10
1999 Cherokee
2003 Grand Cherokee
2003 Viper SRT 10
2004 Grand Cherokee
2006 Viper Coupe
2007 Grand Cherokee
2008 Viper Convertible
2009 Viper ACR
2010 Grand Cherokee
2012 Grand Cherokee
2012 Wrangler Rubicon
2014 Grand Cherokee SRT 8
2014 Viper GTS
2015 Viper TA 2.0
2015 Challenger RT
2015 Wrangler Rubicon Unlimited

[vipernm]

Your second statement about only considering extended powertrain warranty cars does not preclude the need to check whether the powertrain warranty would actually be honored, as you mention in your first statement.

Yeah and it's not trivial to verify because only 'some' 13-14 get the extended warranty. By that I mean we can't input a VIN and get the answer. But the dealer can. And you can always have it checked out at dealer as part of a pre-purchase inspection if you are buying from a non dealer. Seems pretty straightforward. In fact, I shot Tomball an email this morning about a 13 GTS that they're selling and they verified it does have the extended powertrain warranty.

[Simms]

For me personally, a used Gen V with an Arrow ECU would just be one less aftermarket piece I'd have to buy.

[Reaper]

I admit, this issue has my attention more than it did before but there's not much we can do about it. We're at the mercy of FCA. But in reality, how many of us Gen5 owners will ever face the issue of a blown engine? Id say such a tiny sample of the cars produced have whatever this flaw is. Still awfully inconvenient for those owners and I hope FCA makes good on it but lets say 95% of us never have that problem and enjoy the cars as so many of us are. All we keep seeing and reading about is the negative and what if side of things. Yes I do think for a controller to be a scapegoat for a known defect, is BS. Especially when its calibrated by the same people that do the stock calibrations. So on the resale issue, remember the fact that you wont be able to buy a new Viper after 2017 will have more of an effect on values than if the car has ever been modded and the cars available for sale have either had a new engine installed under warranty or were defect free from the beginning. It comes down to odds and numbers.

[darbgnik]

Wrong....apparently pretentious non owning assholes do.

There's a story here somewhere........ ;)

I bought my Gallardo with Lamborghini warranty and a PPI, as I didn't know what to expect. I ended up keeping it for years after the warranty was done, it was a rock solid car.

[Lemur]

Sorry to say but future value in my mind is as early as tomorrow, and this thread was started with what our thoughts are as this unfolds. I'm not saying certain models won't bring more of a premium, but it may not be as much as some would like to believe, there has been a one owner Orange TA in AZ that has been struggling to pull $80K on eBay, I think it has been listed a couple times now back to back and not sure if it sold yet or not. Your car was bought at a very desirable price and that other Orange TA in NH also sold sub $80K about a month ago. I'm not trying to discredit these cars, I would love to have one, but I'm not going to pay more than a reasonable price. You cannot deny that the topic at hand has had some bearing in the devaluation of these cars, period.

Summer is also over and the car market as a whole tanks this time of year until tax return time on Feb 1 when it surges

[Lemur]

So even if a motor goes, do we know yet how to repair it and actually FIX the problem?

[Stealth78]

Summer is also over and the car market as a whole tanks this time of year until tax return time on Feb 1 when it surges

HAHAHA! I'm damn'd if I do and damn'd if I don't! Funny you say that as when I was just buying another Viper I said the same thing. Then I was so graciously corrected by someone who said "Up in MA you may see a slowdown in the winter but down here in the southern portion of the country we never see a slowdown". Not picking an argument with you just really comical to me that I have been inadvertently corrected on the same topic by views that are 180 degrees from one another.

[AZTVR]

So even if a motor goes, do we know yet how to repair it and actually FIX the problem?

What is the cause of the failure in the motor that you are describing? (A spun bearing is not a cause. It is the terminal effect.)

[Lemur]

What is the cause of the failure in the motor that you are describing? (A spun bearing is not a cause. It is the terminal effect.)

I read in another thread that there was a manufacturing issue with the bearings, am i mistaken?

[ViperGeorge]

I read in another thread that there was a manufacturing issue with the bearings, am i mistaken?

I believe the general issue has been shown to be debris in the engine block which was not completely removed by the block manufacturer. Debris gets to the bear causing it to spin in the journal. If the engine isn't shut off quickly this can rapidly lead to rod failure and that is catastrophic.

[V10 Snake]

My 2005 ran flawless until I traded it in for my 2009 which ran flawless until I traded it in for my current 2013 Gen V which has 6,000 miles, passed the R28/29 recalls and runs flawless.....see the trend! And the cars were driven hard, certainly not abused but driven hard. In fact just got stripes on my Gen V

[V10 Snake]

20711

[BJG32]

Possible Solutions:
1) Make your arrow and stock pcm disappear. Replace the OEM.
2) Warranty your car through reputable 3rd party after stock warranty expires.

[AZTVR]

I read in another thread that there was a manufacturing issue with the bearings, am i mistaken?

I think that you are mistaken. At least I do not remember any discussion of bearings being the root cause. The preponderance of posts on engine failures are about what was the root cause that resulted in the destruction of the bearing surfaces.


I believe the general issue has been shown to be debris in the engine block which was not completely removed by the block manufacturer. Debris gets to the bear causing it to spin in the journal. If the engine isn't shut off quickly this can rapidly lead to rod failure and that is catastrophic.

As I have said previously, I have read credible references to at least 3 possible root causes for the spun bearings. Low oil level in the sump due to unknown root cause. Metal shavings clogging oil passages, attributed to be left over from the block machining process. Casting sand from the new block manufacturer's casting process. (This one I am not sure of since people keep saying "debris" and attributing it to the block manufacturer; but, the term, debris is not specific.)
These are just my take aways from the myriad of posts that I have read.

[ViperGeorge]

I think that you are mistaken. At least I do not remember any discussion of bearings being the root cause. The preponderance of posts on engine failures are about what was the root cause that resulted in the destruction of the bearing surfaces.



As I have said previously, I have read credible references to at least 3 possible root causes for the spun bearings. Low oil level in the sump due to unknown root cause. Metal shavings clogging oil passages, attributed to be left over from the block machining process. Casting sand from the new block manufacturer's casting process. (This one I am not sure of since people keep saying "debris" and attributing it to the block manufacturer; but, the term, debris is not specific.)
These are just my take aways from the myriad of posts that I have read.

Yes, debris is a general term but still relates to the manufacture of the block or its incomplete cleaning. Sand would be from incomplete cleaning but I've also heard that certain boring operations have left behind metal bits that were not cleaned. Kind of like when you drill metal and get those metal curly cues which sometime stick in the hole.