Prefix 1st Nth 2nd

[KB Viper]

My Viper is off to Prefix to paint my new 6 vent hood, side sill, and to fix a couple of little paint items . After that it's headed to Nth Moto to have the motor rebuilt along with a Monster NA setup that has been given the code name, CAMZILLA. Will update thread with progress and details.
http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii510/kristopherbush/image1_zpsioqm22wd.jpeg
http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii510/kristopherbush/image5_zpsc5yg0uz8.jpeg
http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii510/kristopherbush/image3_zpsstmbfitn.jpeg
http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii510/kristopherbush/image4_zps0uk5t3w2.jpeg
http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii510/kristopherbush/image7_zpscdsfh8vj.jpeg
http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii510/kristopherbush/image9_zpsbuvhhh7f.jpeg
http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii510/kristopherbush/image10_zpsmgxivnmy.jpeg

[7TH_SIGN]

Your rebuilding it after doing the Arrow stage 2?

[KB Viper]

Your rebuilding it after doing the Arrow stage 2?

I'm burning a quart of oil every 700ish miles, I've been documenting for the last 6k miles (I have 20k miles) and FCA says that is normal. The biggest issue I have with burning oil is it effectively lowers your octane rating and will cause serious issues over time. Since I have no warrenty anyway, I've decided to do a fully built motor now while the block and crank are still good.

[Jack B]

Congratulations, good choice. Even more interesting could be what they will find. Have you ever had the car dyno'ed.



I'm burning a quart of oil every 700ish miles, I've been documenting for the last 6k miles (I have 20k miles) and FCA says that is normal. The biggest issue I have with burning oil is it effectively lowers your octane rating and will serious issues over time. Since I have no warrenty anyway, I've decided to do a fully built motor now while the block and crank are still good.

[KB Viper]

Congratulations, good choice. Even more interesting could be what they will find. Have you ever had the car dyno'ed.

Thanks Jack. Yes, but only back in Jan right after the Arrow stage 2 install. I'm interested to see what they find also, I will report back with the findings.

[1.8t]

Will definitely be following this thread.

[ACR]

When did the oil consumption occur, day 1?

[Vipes]

Wow, talk about dropping some coin! You don't see the SRT hood with the GTS stripe much but that's the best looking combo IMO. Can't wait to see the results with the build...

[edc]

So you're going with new heads/cam? Want to sell the VE stuff to me for cheap ?:-P

[KB Viper]

When did the oil consumption occur, day 1?

yes, I've been burning oil since day one.

[nx91notch]

So you're going with new heads/cam? Want to sell the VE stuff to me for cheap ?:-P

I was thinking the same lol.

I would think there would be a huge want for a VE heads/cam on the used market. You just don't see that everyday.

[v10tt]

KB, is the HEAD and CAM set up from NTh, with Stand alone PCM, or HP tuners?

[swexlin]

Kris, very nice, and good luck with the build. How long is it expected to take? The quart per 700 miles is bullshit, and FCA knows it. I guess if you have the $$, and were going to build anyway, your logic is sound to do it now.

Will be following this thread.

[viper04]

KBViper
Good choice! and good luck with the build. I did not know you were burning that much oil. Just curious, why not do the build first and the paint after that way you minimize the chance of the paint getting scratched or damage, just wondering. Keep us posted.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

KB, excited to see your progress and what they figure out about your oil consumption at Nth Moto. And of course the new build / hood will be awesome.

[sadil]

KBViper
Good choice! and good luck with the build. I did not know you were burning that much oil. Just curious, why not do the build first and the paint after that way you minimize the chance of the paint getting scratched or damage, just wondering. Keep us posted.

I agree^ unless there is a logistics issue for some reason.

[ViperSmith]

I agree^ unless there is a logistics issue for some reason.


Gives paint time to cure

[7TH_SIGN]

Congrats and really looking forward to what Nth finds.

[Jack B]

Were you down on hp.


Thanks Jack. Yes, but only back in Jan right after the Arrow stage 2 install. I'm interested to see what they find also, I will report back with the findings.

[KB Viper]

I was thinking the same lol.
I would think there would be a huge want for a VE heads/cam on the used market. You just don't see that everyday.

will be reworking the Arrow heads and keeping some arrow stuff. Once everything is done and I figure out what I have left over, I"ll decide what I'm going to do.


KB, is the HEAD and CAM set up from NTh, with Stand alone PCM, or HP tuners?

MoTeC


Kris, very nice, and good luck with the build. How long is it expected to take? The quart per 700 miles is bullshit, and FCA knows it. I guess if you have the $$, and were going to build anyway, your logic is sound to do it now. Will be following this thread.

2 weeks at Prefix, 4 weeks at Nth, and 2 weeks round trip transit


KBViper
Good choice! and good luck with the build. I did not know you were burning that much oil. Just curious, why not do the build first and the paint after that way you minimize the chance of the paint getting scratched or damage, just wondering. Keep us posted.

Per Prefix, the piant needs 3 months to cure before putting a clear bra on it so I want it done first to start the clock. Aaron at Nth knows it is going to have fresh paint and he assures me it will be fine and I trust him.


Were you down on hp.
Not at that time,
http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/11722-Dyno-Numbers-from-my-Arrow-stage-2

[Jack B]

Did the oil consumption get worse

[texasram]

Has prefix quoted you on the hood painting?

[ClayR]

Yeah I am interesred in the quote for the side sill. I burned mine and we did it in shop, about to get ti re-wrapped but I am so anal I think I want Prefix to do it as well as the right rear quarter panel. My pipes came loose and torched the side sill.

[ACRSNK]

Wow...can't wait to see the results!

[v10tt]

A friend of mine sent his front bumper to Prefix to be repainted and it was $2200.(it was GTS R blue with silver stripes)

[texasram]

A friend of mine sent his front bumper to Prefix to be repainted and it was $2200.(it was GTS R blue with silver stripes)

Im really interested in the whole hood quote with srt stripes

[ACRucrazy]

Your car will be right down the road from me at Nth. Can't wait to see it done!

[SNKEBIT]

Im really interested in the whole hood quote with srt stripes

2200 for just the bumper?!!??!???!??!?!??!?!!?!?!? If I tried to charge that you would all laugh at me! And the paint that comes out of my shop is just as good if not better than prefix. My god, people have a lot of money to spend.....................


Oh, I said it!!!!!!!!

[TrackAire]

2200 for just the bumper?!!??!???!??!?!??!?!!?!?!? If I tried to charge that you would all laugh at me! And the paint that comes out of my shop is just as good if not better than prefix. My god, people have a lot of money to spend.....................


Oh, I said it!!!!!!!!

Wow, I'm impressed if you can prep, color match, paint, paint matching stripes, clear coat, install and align the new bumper for under $2200.00. I figured $2200.00 isn't cheap, but not out of the realm of what I thought Prefix would charge.

[v10tt]

no installation, just prep and painting. Shipping both ways paid by owner, $400 each way.


Wow, I'm impressed if you can prep, color match, paint, paint matching stripes, clear coat, install and align the new bumper for under $2200.00. I figured $2200.00 isn't cheap, but not out of the realm of what I thought Prefix would charge.

[SNKEBIT]

Wow, I'm impressed if you can prep, color match, paint, paint matching stripes, clear coat, install and align the new bumper for under $2200.00. I figured $2200.00 isn't cheap, but not out of the realm of what I thought Prefix would charge.

All they are doing is paint the bumper......................... Been painting Vipers for years. Many in the club have seen our work, top notch.

[SNKEBIT]

no installation, just prep and painting. Shipping both ways paid by owner, $400 each way.


So, it's 3K total and he has to install himself. Nice.

[TrackAire]

All they are doing is paint the bumper......................... Been painting Vipers for years. Many in the club have seen our work, top notch.

Ok, makes more sense now....I thought they had the car in possession and were doing the R&R, etc.

[mnc2886]

All they are doing is paint the bumper......................... Been painting Vipers for years. Many in the club have seen our work, top notch.

You have a PM.

[repiV]

All they are doing is paint the bumper......................... Been painting Vipers for years. Many in the club have seen our work, top notch.

My hood and front bumper look great Mitch!!! The only problem with your work is that now it makes the remaining factory paint on the car look like it needs done too now!! LOL

I would HIGHLY recommend anyone looking for paint or body work hit him up. And the price is MUCH less than prefix too. Mitch was less than half the price of two local Dodge dealers I got a quote from and one of them was one of our "big three" Viper dealers. That was also with Mitch doing the R&R of the hood and front end.

The thing that I don't get about Prefix is that they are really expensive and people brag about how great their work is but then you read about how fragile the clear coat is from some people. Maybe that's just hit and miss with them?? but for the price you wouldn't expect to hear that kind of stuff.

[KB Viper]

My hood and front bumper look great Mitch!!! The only problem with your work is that now it makes the remaining factory paint on the car look like it needs done too now!! LOL

I would HIGHLY recommend anyone looking for paint or body work hit him up. And the price is MUCH less than prefix too. Mitch was less than half the price of two local Dodge dealers I got a quote from and one of them was one of our "big three" Viper dealers. That was also with Mitch doing the R&R of the hood and front end.

The thing that I don't get about Prefix is that they are really expensive and people brag about how great their work is but then you read about how fragile the clear coat is from some people. Maybe that's just hit and miss with them?? but for the price you wouldn't expect to hear that kind of stuff.

What's Mitch's contact number?

[repiV]

What's Mitch's contact number?

Sent you a PM

[mnc2886]

Sent you a PM

Would you mind sharing with me as well? I've been in contact with Prefix about adding GTS stripes and their quote is astronomical. Thanks.

[FLATOUT]

What's Mitch's contact number?

Mitch, actually his wife, painted my 08 ACR. Awesome job, loved the paint on that car.

[NoMorZR1]

Any updates on the build ?

[KB Viper]

finishing up paint at Prefix this friday and will be at Nth Moto by Monday.
http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii510/kristopherbush/image2_zps8cxsgs4j.jpeg
http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii510/kristopherbush/image1_zpsi5zvzrl0.jpeg

[NoMorZR1]

Hood and sills look good, but I can't wait until Nth dives in to your motor. Are you thinking about a Gen 4 block upgrade or "wait and see ?"

[KB Viper]

Hood and sills look good, but I can't wait until Nth dives in to your motor. Are you thinking about a Gen 4 block upgrade or "wait and see ?"

Not at all. I'm pretty maxed out with the build we have planned reusing my stock block.

[KB Viper]

my car is now finally at Nth. Spoke with Aaron today and motor is out and tear down will begin shortly!!!
http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii510/kristopherbush/IMG_2837_zpshzn8i2oo.jpg
http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii510/kristopherbush/IMG_2843_zpsijbr5iwq.jpg
http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii510/kristopherbush/IMG_2855_zpsoc47dnui.jpg

[One Viper Bite]

Maybe by the time you have yours back, my 1 of 1 order will have gone through and be delivered and I can take a hike down from LA to SD so we can play!

[Terminator02]

KB wow congrats on such an awesome build. Are you going to use their carbon clutch? I'm interested if they see anything regarding your current engine or can conclude anything based on their findings. I'm just glad you are building your exact Viper with a great baseline monster to work with! I wouldn't stand a chance against your NA monster being built!

[KB Viper]

Maybe by the time you have yours back, my 1 of 1 order will have gone through and be delivered and I can take a hike down from LA to SD so we can play!

That would be awesome. Mine will be back the first week of Jan. PM me your cell.

[KB Viper]

KB wow congrats on such an awesome build. Are you going to use their carbon clutch? I'm interested if they see anything regarding your current engine or can conclude anything based on their findings. I'm just glad you are building your exact Viper with a great baseline monster to work with! I wouldn't stand a chance against your NA monster being built!

Thanks! Yes I'm doing their carbon clutch and we adding flex fuel to handle the bump in compression and monster cam.

[Nth Moto]

This is another really exciting NA build for us! Having previous experience supporting some of the strongest Drag Pak V10 Challenger's out there as well as several other NA focused racing efforts, this isn't a shot in the dark. With the right electronics in place, a proven built engine program to over 2000HP (with wet sump oiling!), our exclusive triple carbon clutch, and the benefits of ethanol this will certainly be a really potent combination that is still driveable and sound unlike anything else at your local Cars and Coffee (or racetrack!).

[Boosted Motorsports]

This is another really exciting NA build for us! Having previous experience supporting some of the strongest Drag Pak V10 Challenger's out there as well as several other NA focused racing efforts, this isn't a shot in the dark. With the right electronics in place, a proven built engine program to over 2000HP (with wet sump oiling!), our exclusive triple carbon clutch, and the benefits of ethanol this will certainly be a really potent combination that is still driveable and sound unlike anything else at your local Cars and Coffee (or racetrack!).

Can't wait to see how it turns out!!!

[KB Viper]

some new parts going in!
http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii510/kristopherbush/IMG_3453_zpsxeymzjng.jpg
http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii510/kristopherbush/IMG_3442_zpssuji1rpn.jpg
http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii510/kristopherbush/IMG_3440_zpsigfvrt5h.jpg
http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii510/kristopherbush/IMG_3441_zpsbvwgok43.jpg

look at the wear on my bearings
http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii510/kristopherbush/IMG_3449_zpsvoazgexj.jpg
http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii510/kristopherbush/IMG_3448_zps0qhzwczj.jpg

[Arizona Vipers]

Details! Are you just doing heads/cam? Or are you increasing bore? stroke? Compression ratio?

[1.8t]

Wow! How many miles did you have on them?

[Jack B]

Did they find the source of the oil consumption.

[ACRucrazy]

some new parts going in!

look at the wear on my bearings
http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii510/kristopherbush/IMG_3449_zpsvoazgexj.jpg
http://i1257.photobucket.com/albums/ii510/kristopherbush/IMG_3448_zps0qhzwczj.jpg

Wow!

[KB Viper]

Details! Are you just doing heads/cam? Or are you increasing bore? stroke? Compression ratio?
cylinders just had a clean up. we decided on that in case of future power adders like Nitrous, Aaron thought the slight gain wouldn't be worth the risk of a thinner wall, compression is bumped to 11.5:1, flex fuel/E85, MoTeC, larger headers, Monster cam, further head porting on Arrow heads, motor mounts, carbon clutch, etc...

Wow! How many miles did you have on them?
20k

Did they find the source of the oil consumption.
weak oil rings cuased blowbye. oil in combustion caused detonation which is why my bearings look like shit.

[TrackAire]

"Wow" as in good and "wow" as in bad......probably a good thing you got the engine torn down when you did.

Should be a monster on the streets when she's all done :dude3:

[Vprbite]

Those new parts look purty. It's a shame you won't get to see em.

Congrats on the build!

[swexlin]

I think the same thing. With bearing wear like that, perhaps just a matter of time until kaboom if you had left her stock?

[SRT BILL]

KB Viper, how do the journals on the crank look? Do they need to be turned? I believe you are using the original crank shaft in your build. Good luck with a very special sounding build. Please continue to keep us posted.

[ZeeViper]

Ugh....those bearings are just about toast. Has Nth seen this to be common in our GenV motors? so annoying, i'm sure everyone seeing that is thinking about their warranty.

Now i'm to the point of wanting to do a rebuild purely to make the motor perfect and not worry about it.

[KB Viper]

"Wow" as in good and "wow" as in bad......probably a good thing you got the engine torn down when you did.

Should be a monster on the streets when she's all done :dude3:
thanks, I have high hopes.


Those new parts look purty. It's a shame you won't get to see em.

Congrats on the build!
thanks!


I think the same thing. With bearing wear like that, perhaps just a matter of time until kaboom if you had left her stock?

Aaron said 3 of the bearings lost their "crush" and that some of the oil rings lost their tension. we believe that the root cause for me was a set of shitty oil rings that caused blowby hence my burning 1 quart every 600ish miles (Aaron said my intake manifold was soaked with oil and my piston tops showed all the signs of oil burning in the hole). Also please keep in mind I am running the DSE dual catch can set up which my dirty side was filling up every 300ish miles and I did have the updated valve cover installed (R29). Oil in the combustion process caused detonation which is why by bearings look like shit. His opinion is like yours, my motor would not have lasted to much longer, especially the way I drive.


KB Viper, how do the journals on the crank look? Do they need to be turned? I believe you are using the original crank shaft in your build. Good luck with a very special sounding build. Please continue to keep us posted.

Aaron said crank was fine and just needed a clean up, but he did say the crank dampener was spinning/spun on the crank snout but that has now been fixed and new ATI dampener is on.


Ugh....those bearings are just about toast. Has Nth seen this to be common in our GenV motors? so annoying, i'm sure everyone seeing that is thinking about their warranty.

Now i'm to the point of wanting to do a rebuild purely to make the motor perfect and not worry about it.

I'll let Aaron answer that question.

[swexlin]

Kris, thanks for the update. Like Zee, we are all wondering if many of our engines, stock or not, warranty or not, are on borrower time after seeing those pics.

[mjorgensen]

KB did Aaron check the bores to see if they were perfectly round? That could also cause excessive blow by and would of course have to be addressed as in the overbore work.

[Nth Moto]

Kris, thanks for the update. Like Zee, we are all wondering if many of our engines, stock or not, warranty or not, are on borrower time after seeing those pics.


Ugh....those bearings are just about toast. Has Nth seen this to be common in our GenV motors? so annoying, i'm sure everyone seeing that is thinking about their warranty.

Now i'm to the point of wanting to do a rebuild purely to make the motor perfect and not worry about it.

I think it's really important to recognize something about these engine failures that have been occurring; there isn't just one blanket cause for all of them. I feel like a lot of people are hoping to peg everything on one sole reason (IE block washing station for debris) rather than look at the fine print, so to speak. When you teardown an engine with a known issue you have to keep an open mind about order of operations - what happened, when. In our opinion, Kris' engine shows way too many signs of oil in the combustion chambers (which is havoc for the combustion process) to ignore and the rod bearings have likely been getting hammered and deformed from continual pre-ignition or detonation. A tough piston forging can usually take much more of this abuse compared to bearings.

With that in mind, it doesn't now mean that every person with oil consumption has to be worried about their rod bearings. Kris' car was quite modified, is driven incredibly hard (his words), and is forced to run on some of the worst fuel available to the performance world (California 91 octane). Combine all of those things and it may have just produced the right environment for something like this to happen.

[Nth Moto]

KB did Aaron check the bores to see if they were perfectly round? That could also cause excessive blow by and would of course have to be addressed as in the overbore work.

Yes, and while I wouldn't call them mint it paled in comparison to the ring tension out of this particular engine.

[FLATOUT]

Very well said Aaron.



I think it's really important to recognize something about these engine failures that have been occurring; there isn't just one blanket cause for all of them. I feel like a lot of people are hoping to peg everything on one sole reason (IE block washing station for debris) rather than look at the fine print, so to speak. When you teardown an engine with a known issue you have to keep an open mind about order of operations - what happened, when. In our opinion, Kris' engine shows way too many signs of oil in the combustion chambers (which is havoc for the combustion process) to ignore and the rod bearings have likely been getting hammered and deformed from continual pre-ignition or detonation. A tough piston forging can usually take much more of this abuse compared to bearings.

With that in mind, it doesn't now mean that every person with oil consumption has to be worried about their rod bearings. Kris' car was quite modified, is driven incredibly hard (his words), and is forced to run on some of the worst fuel available to the performance world (California 91 octane). Combine all of those things and it may have just produced the right environment for something like this to happen.

[swexlin]

Thanks for the explanation. Appreciated.

[TrackAire]

I think it's really important to recognize something about these engine failures that have been occurring; there isn't just one blanket cause for all of them. I feel like a lot of people are hoping to peg everything on one sole reason (IE block washing station for debris) rather than look at the fine print, so to speak. When you teardown an engine with a known issue you have to keep an open mind about order of operations - what happened, when. In our opinion, Kris' engine shows way too many signs of oil in the combustion chambers (which is havoc for the combustion process) to ignore and the rod bearings have likely been getting hammered and deformed from continual pre-ignition or detonation. A tough piston forging can usually take much more of this abuse compared to bearings.

With that in mind, it doesn't now mean that every person with oil consumption has to be worried about their rod bearings. Kris' car was quite modified, is driven incredibly hard (his words), and is forced to run on some of the worst fuel available to the performance world (California 91 octane). Combine all of those things and it may have just produced the right environment for something like this to happen.

Aaron,
Would pre-ignition or detonation of this type be audible?? Anything we should listen for if we suspect the same oil in combustion chamber issue?

Thanks

[Jack B]

Wouldn't KR reduce or stop the detonation, along with a noticeable loss of power? On the same topic, wouldn't continual/excessive KR have set a visual code



I think it's really important to recognize something about these engine failures that have been occurring; there isn't just one blanket cause for all of them. I feel like a lot of people are hoping to peg everything on one sole reason (IE block washing station for debris) rather than look at the fine print, so to speak. When you teardown an engine with a known issue you have to keep an open mind about order of operations - what happened, when. In our opinion, Kris' engine shows way too many signs of oil in the combustion chambers (which is havoc for the combustion process) to ignore and the rod bearings have likely been getting hammered and deformed from continual pre-ignition or detonation. A tough piston forging can usually take much more of this abuse compared to bearings.

With that in mind, it doesn't now mean that every person with oil consumption has to be worried about their rod bearings. Kris' car was quite modified, is driven incredibly hard (his words), and is forced to run on some of the worst fuel available to the performance world (California 91 octane). Combine all of those things and it may have just produced the right environment for something like this to happen.

[bluesrt]

Dont these cars have knock sensors to retard timing upon detonation?

[uberpube]

Wouldn't KR reduce or stop the detonation, along with a noticeable loss of power? On the same topic, wouldn't continual/excessive KR have set a visual code
Something I don't get here:
Why would a modern v-10 motor be so knock prone when combusting motor oil? Knock kills rotary engines instantly, yet on my 2 rotor at 18 psi, it made 502 rwhp on 91 octane gas, I was injecting a litre of 20w50 engine oil every 500 km's ( 300 miles) via the OMP and premixing the gas with 2 stroke oil at 150:1 at the same time to control seal wear....I did a lot of road course miles with that car.... Just seems odd for oil causing harsh detonation in a motor with way less chamber pressures and active knock detection with an engine management system 20 years newer than I was using (which didn't have any active knock control).

[Steve M]

The thing to remember with KR is that there is a decay period...if KR is detected, the PCM will pull timing and add fuel. Once the motor stops knocking for a certain period of time, the PCM will revert back to the originally commanded timing and fueling until it knocks again, starting that whole cycle over again. With KR sensors, they have to detect an event before they intervene, so damage is already being done...if that knock is severe enough, it's only a matter of time before it's knocked one time too many. If I'm not mistaken, oil has an octane rating of around 50, so it isn't the best thing to be ingesting along with crap 91 octane gas.

What I don't know is if these PCMs also have a burst knock feature...typically, that would work by pulling some amount of timing when a large inrush of air is detected (like by going WOT). It's something I've seen implemented on Chevy PCMs, but I've not seen any data to suggest that Chrysler has something similar for this application.

[Jack B]

Just a guess, your described failures were probably pre-ignition. In this case detonation is the issue, cars can live a long time with moderate detonation. The oil ladden mixture is not totally burned and then re-ignites as the piston is going down on the power stroke. You now have the normal pressure of ignition and on top of that you have the sharp spike of re-ignition. The knock sensor looks for that sharp spike. The noise is actually the engine mechanically ringing (resonance). It is not far different than hitting the engine with a hammer


Something I don't get here:
Why would a modern v-10 motor be so knock prone when combusting motor oil? Knock kills rotary engines instantly, yet on my 2 rotor at 18 psi, it made 502 rwhp on 91 octane gas, I was injecting a litre of 20w50 engine oil every 500 km's ( 300 miles) via the OMP and premixing the gas with 2 stroke oil at 150:1 at the same time to control seal wear....I did a lot of road course miles with that car.... Just seems odd for oil causing harsh detonation in a motor with way less chamber pressures and active knock detection with an engine management system 20 years newer than I was using (which didn't have any active knock control).

[uberpube]

Just a guess, your described failures were probably pre-ignition. In this case detonation is the issue, cars can live a long time with moderate detonation. The oil ladden mixture is not totally burned and then re-ignites as the piston is going down on the power stroke. You now have the normal pressure of ignition and on top of that you have the sharp spike of re-ignition. The knock sensor looks for that sharp spike. The noise is actually the engine mechanically ringing (resonance). It is not far different than hitting the engine with a hammer
I never had any engine failures, one detonation event in a rotary and the motor is garbage, if oil causes detonation, I should have seen it in that motor, considering I was burning so much oil in a much smaller motor.

[SharpMan]

I never had any engine failures, one detonation event in a rotary and the motor is garbage, if oil causes detonation, I should have seen it in that motor, considering I was burning so much oil in a much smaller motor.

Rotary's are known to burn oil though. Can understand it not being a concern.

[DZnutz]

one detonation event in a rotary and the motor is garbage

Where are you getting your information from? I owned a highly modified 93 RX7 for the better part of a decade and I can assure you that these Wankels can take a lot of punishment, they are not made of glass.

[DZnutz]

Rotary's are known to burn oil though. Can understand it not being a concern.

They burn oil as they were designed to do so. Rotary engines have oiling channels that dump oil directly into the combustion chamber. This is required as the apex seals need lubrication. It is a dirty engine but incredibly durable.

[bluesrt]

so we have motors with dirty blocks, some weak rings,some not so good cylinder bore, oil getting in combustion chamber and causing detonation, wow have never seen such a engine with so many different angles of rod bearing wear.lol then we have the motors that have been run like a dog with no problems.... has any body smelled a rat to low oil in the engine at one point? seems like no fingers to that, oh and yes everybody says they didn't run it low on oil,lol

[donk_316]

I can assure you that these Wankels can take a lot of punishment, they are not made of glass.

Lol ... probably the first time on the internet that has been said with a straight face...

Wankel engine = boost in - apex seals out.

[bluesrt]

= wanked up

[Boosted Motorsports]

Wankel engine = boost in = apex seals out.

Hahah best way to describe an Rx7

[KB Viper]

Aaron,
Would pre-ignition or detonation of this type be audible?? Anything we should listen for if we suspect the same oil in combustion chamber issue?

Thanks

i never heard any audible knock, my car was pretty loud though.


Wouldn't KR reduce or stop the detonation, along with a noticeable loss of power? On the same topic, wouldn't continual/excessive KR have set a visual code

i never got a code on my dashboard once the arrow pcm was installed. i went into limp mode several times when i had an HP tune.

Dont these cars have knock sensors to retard timing upon detonation?
yes but it pulls timing after knock has occurred

The thing to remember with KR is that there is a decay period...if KR is detected, the PCM will pull timing and add fuel. Once the motor stops knocking for a certain period of time, the PCM will revert back to the originally commanded timing and fueling until it knocks again, starting that whole cycle over again. With KR sensors, they have to detect an event before they intervene, so damage is already being done...if that knock is severe enough, it's only a matter of time before it's knocked one time too many. If I'm not mistaken, oil has an octane rating of around 50, so it isn't the best thing to be ingesting along with crap 91 octane gas.

What I don't know is if these PCMs also have a burst knock feature...typically, that would work by pulling some amount of timing when a large inrush of air is detected (like by going WOT). It's something I've seen implemented on Chevy PCMs, but I've not seen any data to suggest that Chrysler has something similar for this application.

Well said SteveM!

[DZnutz]

Lol ... probably the first time on the internet that has been said with a straight face...

Wankel engine = boost in - apex seals out.

well, not in my experience. But fouling plugs... oh ya

[Nth Moto]

How the information obtained by knock sensors is used, is up to the calibrator(s) behind the ECU, which also varies based upon the manufacturer's engineering and control logic. That means that Dodge very well may do it different than Audi, for instance.

Constantly running an engine into pre-ignition or detonation with a re-active knock retard system, even minor, is not good. If the knock retard goes active every cycle, it still went active because it monitored something it didn't like. That doesn't change that a knock event already happened, and probably will again the next time the engine is put in that condition. We personally view a knock system as a safety for when things get really bad, not to be relied upon every time the car goes wide open throttle to determine a safe running condition.

The information we're providing is merely our thoughts on this particular engine. It's theory based on what we see compared to over a decade of other engine teardowns as well as some assumptions; meaning the best we can do is say that we think this is what happened with Kris' bearings (pre-ignition or detonation). Nobody expected to see damaged bearings as a direct result of the customer knowing he was burning oil, but damaged bearings are what we found and are now trying to help shed some light and knowledge.

Did extremely excess oil contamination in the combustion cause pre-ignition or detonation? Impossible to say with 100% certainty. Can oil contamination in the combustion of a piston spark ignition engine cause pre-ignition or detonation? Absolutely. That's not just based on our previous experience... SAE and other researchers and authorities have been publishing information on that subject for many many years.

As far as the rotary example goes; you're talking about an engine that was designed and engineered from the factory to allow consumption of small amounts of oil during it's combustion process. Our reciprocating SI engines were not designed in that same way.

[Camfab]

I never had any engine failures, one detonation event in a rotary and the motor is garbage, if oil causes detonation, I should have seen it in that motor, considering I was burning so much oil in a much smaller motor.
Sounds like you have quite a bit of rotary experience under your belt. I think you likely know that you can't compare the detonation probability of an engine specifically designed to burn oil, as are all rotary engines, to a piston engine which is not. Really, more of a statement on engine design, than a point of proof.

Edit, I started my post and walked away, Nth already basically read my mind.

[uberpube]

Where are you getting your information from? I owned a highly modified 93 RX7 for the better part of a decade and I can assure you that these Wankels can take a lot of punishment, they are not made of glass.
You have no idea who you are talking to...

[uberpube]

How the information obtained by knock sensors is used, is up to the calibrator(s) behind the ECU, which also varies based upon the manufacturer's engineering and control logic. That means that Dodge very well may do it different than Audi, for instance.

Constantly running an engine into pre-ignition or detonation with a re-active knock retard system, even minor, is not good. If the knock retard goes active every cycle, it still went active because it monitored something it didn't like. That doesn't change that a knock event already happened, and probably will again the next time the engine is put in that condition. We personally view a knock system as a safety for when things get really bad, not to be relied upon every time the car goes wide open throttle to determine a safe running condition.

The information we're providing is merely our thoughts on this particular engine. It's theory based on what we see compared to over a decade of other engine teardowns as well as some assumptions; meaning the best we can do is say that we think this is what happened with Kris' bearings (pre-ignition or detonation). Nobody expected to see damaged bearings as a direct result of the customer knowing he was burning oil, but damaged bearings are what we found and are now trying to help shed some light and knowledge.

Did extremely excess oil contamination in the combustion cause pre-ignition or detonation? Impossible to say with 100% certainty. Can oil contamination in the combustion of a piston spark ignition engine cause pre-ignition or detonation? Absolutely. That's not just based on our previous experience... SAE and other researchers and authorities have been publishing information on that subject for many many years.

As far as the rotary example goes; you're talking about an engine that was designed and engineered from the factory to allow consumption of small amounts of oil during it's combustion process. Our reciprocating SI engines were not designed in that same way.
Either oil causes detonation or it doesn't. The engines are combusting the same fuel and air, and a high strung rotary is making more power with less engine so the cylinder chambers are higher, if the oil caused a substantial reduction in charge octane, the rotary would be the first one to spit its guts out the tail pipe.. All I could find in my shelves of textbooks on it, is that prolonged oil consumption can build up enough to raise the compression ratio and make for hot spots, but thats also the same for rotary.
To be honest, those bearings look exactly the same as the ones I pull out of industrial reciprocating compressors that are run with out bypass oil filters and the oil shows a high carbon content. It could be blowby breaking down the oil.

[KB Viper]

Either oil causes detonation or it doesn't. The engines are combusting the same fuel and air, and a high strung rotary is making more power with less engine so the cylinder chambers are higher, if the oil caused a substantial reduction in charge octane, the rotary would be the first one to spit its guts out the tail pipe.. All I could find in my shelves of textbooks on it, is that prolonged oil consumption can build up enough to raise the compression ratio and make for hot spots, but thats also the same for rotary.
To be honest, those bearings look exactly the same as the ones I pull out of industrial reciprocating compressors that are run with out bypass oil filters and the oil shows a high carbon content. It could be blowby breaking down the oil.

would a good catch can set up fix the blowby you are talking about?

[uberpube]

If it is blow by, that is lost power, if its a ring sealing issue it means lost gases, which could be a whole host of things, no catch can will fix assembly or parts machining errors.

[Nth Moto]

Either oil causes detonation or it doesn't. The engines are combusting the same fuel and air, and a high strung rotary is making more power with less engine so the cylinder chambers are higher, if the oil caused a substantial reduction in charge octane, the rotary would be the first one to spit its guts out the tail pipe.. All I could find in my shelves of textbooks on it, is that prolonged oil consumption can build up enough to raise the compression ratio and make for hot spots, but thats also the same for rotary.
To be honest, those bearings look exactly the same as the ones I pull out of industrial reciprocating compressors that are run with out bypass oil filters and the oil shows a high carbon content. It could be blowby breaking down the oil.

I understand your logic, but I believe you're missing a really critical point which is why we were trying to keep the example of the rotary engine separated from this.

This engine, and most all reciprocating SI engines, are calibrated WITHOUT measurable oil in the combustion process as a normal entity. Therefore, the threshold for pre-ignition or detonation is changed when oil that was not intended to be in the combustion process is.

This style of engine can suffer from higher knock sensitivity when more oil than expected is present in the combustion process. This has been proven working alongside both OEM and high level racing team engine dyno test sessions.

In our experience tearing down race engines, the ones that have loosened up ring tension in non-uniform fashion and sporadic bearings that have lost their crush are strong candidates for pre-ignition or detonation damage. I'm not sure what else to tell you.

[Jack B]

If it is blow by, that is lost power, if its a ring sealing issue it means lost gases, which could be a whole host of things, no catch can will fix assembly or parts machining errors.

Poor ring sealing causes blow-by,

- - - Updated - - -

[QUOTE=uberpube;270564]If it is blow by, that is lost power, if its a ring sealing issue it means lost gases, which could be a whole host of things, no catch can will fix assembly or parts

[uberpube]

I understand your logic, but I believe you're missing a really critical point which is why we were trying to keep the example of the rotary engine separated from this.

This engine, and most all reciprocating SI engines, are calibrated WITHOUT measurable oil in the combustion process as a normal entity. Therefore, the threshold for pre-ignition or detonation is changed when oil that was not intended to be in the combustion process is.

This style of engine can suffer from higher knock sensitivity when more oil than expected is present in the combustion process. This has been proven working alongside both OEM and high level racing team engine dyno test sessions.

In our experience tearing down race engines, the ones that have loosened up ring tension in non-uniform fashion and sporadic bearings that have lost their crush are strong candidates for pre-ignition or detonation damage. I'm not sure what else to tell you.
That would point to carbon build up changing the compression ration or making hot spots, the rotary example just points out that oil doesn't change the auto combustabilty of the charge a whole lot. On my 2 rotor, the oil was upped significantly on a timing map that I originally tuned
on baseline oil injection and with no premix. The added oil was done to control wear when i started tracking the car at sustained high boost levels. Oil amount changed nothing in terms of the tuning needs of the car. On that car it has no active knock control, only a readout from the Power FC, which didn't change at all with
any changes to OMP or premix oiling.
The first 440 I screwed together I made some poor choices in pistons,head decking and camshaft, I ended up with a knock prone engine . The bearings that came out of that 440 engine looked nothing like the photos on the third page. The 440's bearings had heavy surface cracks and there was metal transfer evident everywhere. Those bearings on the third page are screaming lubrication issue, not detonation. I've got 25 years of rebuilding reciprocating machines under my belt, go with whatever theory makes you happy I guess...

- - - Updated - - -


Poor ring sealing causes blow-by,

- - - Updated - - -

[QUOTE=uberpube;270564]If it is blow by, that is lost power, if its a ring sealing issue it means lost gases, which could be a whole host of things, no catch can will fix assembly or parts
Where did I say it didn't? Not sure what your post is about here?

[Nth Moto]

Uberpube,

We're just going to have to agree to disagree, which I'm quite alright with. Our "theories" have proven themselves countless times over and have helped us build very successful and reliable race cars/engines, so we will continue to use them.

[TooBlue]

Uberpube,

We're just going to have to agree to disagree, which I'm quite alright with. Our "theories" have proven themselves countless times over and have helped us build very successful and reliable race cars/engines, so we will continue to use them.

Enough said....

[38D]

I tried to find studies that showed the impact of oil mist in changing the combustion characteristics, and this was the best I could come up.


http://www.rotaxservice.com/rotax_tips/rotax_feed2.htm]First[/url], when fuel is premixed with 2-stroke oil, the octane rating is reduced by about 2 points. An 87 octane fuel would therefore become 85 octane.

So if the original poster is burning 1 quart every 700mi, that equates to more like a 1:150 ration vs. 1:50. So if the above is correct, it would impact the octane rating by <1 point. I wonder if the real reason is in fact the oil vapor burning causing ash contamination in the remaining oil.

[KB Viper]

Uberpube,

We're just going to have to agree to disagree, which I'm quite alright with. Our "theories" have proven themselves countless times over and have helped us build very successful and reliable race cars/engines, so we will continue to use them.

mic dropped...

[KB Viper]

CAMZILLA IS ALIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMb4QRhWT5E&feature=youtu.be

[blingnoring]

CAMZILLA IS ALIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMb4QRhWT5E&feature=youtu.be

holy shitt!! that is bad asss!!!