R28 R29 questions

[dmann]

I haven't really paid much attention to these recalls but i have a question regarding them. If a new car has these recalls and they are performed does this mean that the engine is good to go or is this motor plagued with possible issues down the road?

[Space Truckin]

I am in the camp that the Gen V engine is plagued with casting/ cleaning and machining issues, if I remember correctly engines have failed with 10 miles and 6000 miles. All that being said, drive it like you stole it, if she goes you build it bigger and better.JM2C :smileys-car-driving

See this thread for more info...FWIW

http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/15836-Well-I-didn-t-see-that-one-coming

[ViperGeorge]

I haven't really paid much attention to these recalls but i have a question regarding them. If a new car has these recalls and they are performed does this mean that the engine is good to go or is this motor plagued with possible issues down the road?

R29 is the less severe of the two. It is meant to deal with excessive oil consumption by rerouting the make up air line from the driver's side valve cover to the airbox. Without it done (only applies to MY 13, 14, and 15) you might put oil into the airbox and onto the air filter. IMO not doing won't cause your engine to blow unless you burn up too much oil and run low.

R28 is more serious as it was meant to check for debris in the engine. Debris in the engine can cause internal problems resulting in a blown engine. However, it appears there may still be engine issues on cars that have passed the R28 check. As a result FCA extended the engine warranty for any car that had R28 whether it passed or not. So if the car had R28 it may have problems down the road. Good news is though you now have 10 years/100K miles.

[zee]

I wanted one with just r29 issued since they are much less likely to blow. They don't have contamination issues, just subject to consumption. Mine doesn't burn a drop and 9,000 miles now. Nobody knows 100% but the failures on r29 only cars seem to be a lot less. This data is supported by the fact the FCA only extended warranty on r28 cars. Who knows, maybe one day they will extend it to all G5s.

[Dman]

George's post is good run down of the recalls.

As for all the speculation on how likely one model or year is to blow, it's total guessing and hope. We have no idea whatsoever.

Cars brand new, 15-16, have blown in the driveway. Cars with over 10,000 miles have blown. Replacement 2016 motors have blown. We know at least 7 ACRs have blown, which considering the low mileage on these in general, is a lot IMO.

FCA had offered no info, ad to why these are blowing, why they increased selected warranties, or if 17s are any better than the 13-16 issues.

No one here likes to post that we don't know, everyone wants an opinion, but fact is, we know nothing other than every year to date is blowing at a rate that indicates there's a problem, still. Unless you take the position that every motor blown since 2015 is 100% owner error, which I don't buy.

[AZTVR]

I would also like to add that the r29 recall does not appear to be related to any engine failure as far as I have read. It is to change the routing of the PCV hose on one valve cover so as to reduce the possibility of returning oil to the airbox during clockwise high G sweeper turns. It is of zero concern to me as a potential buyer.

[Bruce H.]

FCA likely has a good handle on the problem, with the bulk of the failures affecting engines in cars built during part of 2013 and early 2014, and those are the ones that had the R28 recall. There have been relatively few since then, but whenever there is one it just gets certain folks here wound up all over again, continuing a doom and gloom narrative that's blown out of proportion. Most owners and buyers of any year Gen V can now take comfort that they will not have an engine failure caused by a defect, with those deemed by FCA to be at higher risk now covered under the extended warranty provided for that possibility.

While we would all like to know exactly what the cause(s) was, and some kind of proof that it didn't affect our particular car or one we're considering buying, FCA doesn't need to acknowledge that, and for all we know may not be allowed to for one reason or another.

What FCA has done with replacing non-modded engines under warranty that have failed, and extended warranty on those more at risk that might fail in the future, will satisfy "most" owners and prospective buyers. Clearly some won't be satisfied, and maybe only a lifetime warranty on all would assure them. I'm guessing we're going to here that negativity for a very long time...or at least until they get over it. I'm hoping for the latter, and the sky clearly isn't falling.

It is not uncommon for many brands to have engines that fail. If there's a lot the manufacturer takes steps to remedy as FCA has done, and I wouldn't be surprised if they did more based on the frequency of future failures. Analyzing Viper engine failures must be difficult when so many are driven so seldom that there's just not enough miles on them in some cases for a failure to occur and become a data point. Those owner might be concerned that they won't have sufficient miles for a failure within the extended warranty period either.

Every buyer recognizes that any car they buy may suffer an expensive failure outside of warranty, and accept or even anticipate that reality. Some who track theirs or modify them might even accept that they've probably voided their warranty. They do it anyway. Bottom line is that when you buy any car there's no guarantee that it won't have the odd failure, or many failures, and I'm glad to see FCA step up and do what they have. It wasn't quick enough to seriously undermine owner confidence on the forum, and I do hope that slowly returns. It's a great car, having both the pros and cons of being a low production and hand built exotic, and with the extended warranty I wouldn't be afraid in the least to buy any one of them.

Bruce

[dmann]

good info and thanks for the link. I just read through the entire post.
Interesting, I had a early build 13 and it didn't use a drop of oil.

So,basically..its a crap shoot if you buy a R28 car. If you do, drive it alot and if there is an issue FCA will back you up till the new warranty expires.


Just curious, I hear the term "blown motor" Does this mean it loses compression and wont start or does it mean the motor locks up? Reason I ask is what if this car is tracked and it blows while your out there pushing it?

[mjorgensen]

FCA likely has a good handle on the problem, with the bulk of the failures affecting engines in cars built during part of 2013 and early 2014, and those are the ones that had the R28 recall. There have been relatively few since then, but whenever there is one it just gets certain folks here wound up all over again, continuing a doom and gloom narrative that's blown out of proportion. Most owners and buyers of any year Gen V can now take comfort that they will not have an engine failure caused by a defect, with those deemed by FCA to be at higher risk now covered under the extended warranty provided for that possibility.

While we would all like to know exactly what the cause(s) was, and some kind of proof that it didn't affect our particular car or one we're considering buying, FCA doesn't need to acknowledge that, and for all we know may not be allowed to for one reason or another.

What FCA has done with replacing non-modded engines under warranty that have failed, and extended warranty on those more at risk that might fail in the future, will satisfy "most" owners and prospective buyers. Clearly some won't be satisfied, and maybe only a lifetime warranty on all would assure them. I'm guessing we're going to here that negativity for a very long time...or at least until they get over it. I'm hoping for the latter, and the sky clearly isn't falling.

It is not uncommon for many brands to have engines that fail. If there's a lot the manufacturer takes steps to remedy as FCA has done, and I wouldn't be surprised if they did more based on the frequency of future failures. Analyzing Viper engine failures must be difficult when so many are driven so seldom that there's just not enough miles on them in some cases for a failure to occur and become a data point. Those owner might be concerned that they won't have sufficient miles for a failure within the extended warranty period either.

Every buyer recognizes that any car they buy may suffer an expensive failure outside of warranty, and accept or even anticipate that reality. Some who track theirs or modify them might even accept that they've probably voided their warranty. They do it anyway. Bottom line is that when you buy any car there's no guarantee that it won't have the odd failure, or many failures, and I'm glad to see FCA step up and do what they have. It wasn't quick enough to seriously undermine owner confidence on the forum, and I do hope that slowly returns. It's a great car, having both the pros and cons of being a low production and hand built exotic, and with the extended warranty I wouldn't be afraid in the least to buy any one of them.

Bruce

The very fact that FCA has extended these warranties IMHO is their admitting there IS an issue with these engines out of anyone's control and that should reverse any unwarranted claims that the parts Arrow Racing is producing are the reasons engines are failing. With that said they owe Arrow and Dick Winkles an apology and the reversal of any charges incurred by owners having to fix engines on their own dime, but what the hell do I know...

[AZTVR]

I hear the term "blown motor" Does this mean it loses compression and wont start or does it mean the motor locks up? Reason I ask is what if this car is tracked and it blows while your out there pushing it?

"blown motor" is just a generic term that people use, especially those that have no idea what caused an engine to fail. You can't deduce anything when someone says they "blew" a motor. The term is so misused that it means nothing other than the engine doesn't work anymore. Usually, they mean that they assume that the engine internals were expensively damaged although most don't actually know that.

The most common thing that has resulted from a failure in the Gen V Viper engines (as far as I have read) is that a rod bearing spins in its position which damages the crankshaft surface, puts metal through the engine, and possibly damages other bearing surfaces. The loss of metal at the damaged rod bearing, and resultant loss of separation between the rotating surfaces causes a knocking noise. In a worst case scenario, this could cause the rod to break and punch a hole in the block. This could happen if you continued to drive a car hard with a failed bearing. In any case, it probably would be a very expensive repair to a Viper engine.

[Bruce H.]

The very fact that FCA has extended these warranties IMHO is their admitting there IS an issue with these engines out of anyone's control and that should reverse any unwarranted claims that the parts Arrow Racing is producing are the reasons engines are failing. With that said they owe Arrow and Dick Winkles an apology and the reversal of any charges incurred by owners having to fix engines on their own dime, but what the hell do I know...

By not covering Arrow modded engines it puts FCA/Arrow selling dealers and their customers in a difficult position given the voiding provision in the warranty, despite FCA perhaps not having an issue with that mod in the past. Has there been an attempt to force FCA to prove that the Arrow mod caused the failure, and is that something the Arrow dealers should be doing, or the customer?

[ViperGeorge]

It would seem to me that by extending the warranty on R28 cars FCA is saying they are much more likely to encounter a failure of down the road. IMO R29 in and of itself is not causing engines to fail unless some moron let the oil run low because it was flowing from the valve cover to the air box. Although I've got to say my 15 TA that had R29 never lost a drop of oil and it has been tracked a lot.

We must remember Vipers have blown engines since they were first launched. I was at Pocono with the Viper club back in like 2008 and I blew the engine on my 06 Coupe as did two others. I was doing 155mph at the time and the engine went south in a hurry throwing two rods through the block. I was lucky the engine didn't lock up before I could get into neurtral or it could have been ugly. Those that had Gen 3s may remember the cars did not have a swinging oil pickup (I guess we might consider that a design flaw). As a result the engine would starve for oil under hard Gs. This was remedied in the Gen 4. Bottom line is that failures in cars without R28 might be caused by damn near anything. Maybe FCA knows but for us it is only a guess.

[Terminator02]

It would seem to me that by extending the warranty on R28 cars FCA is saying they are much more likely to encounter a failure of down the road. IMO R29 in and of itself is not causing engines to fail unless some moron let the oil run low because it was flowing from the valve cover to the air box. Although I've got to say my 15 TA that had R29 never lost a drop of oil and it has been tracked a lot.

We must remember Vipers have blown engines since they were first launched. I was at Pocono with the Viper club back in like 2008 and I blew the engine on my 06 Coupe as did two others. I was doing 155mph at the time and the engine went south in a hurry throwing two rods through the block. I was lucky the engine didn't lock up before I could get into neurtral or it could have been ugly. Those that had Gen 3s may remember the cars did not have a swinging oil pickup (I guess we might consider that a design flaw). As a result the engine would starve for oil under hard Gs. This was remedied in the Gen 4. Bottom line is that failures in cars without R28 might be caused by damn near anything. Maybe FCA knows but for us it is only a guess.

Can be interpreted a lot of ways George. Fca has handled this poorly and they have demonstrated its all about costs. I'm sure they calculated projected failures to warranty extension and saw this as the path to take. Haven't the majority of failures been due to low oil anyway? (serious question).

[swexlin]

The very fact that FCA has extended these warranties IMHO is their admitting there IS an issue with these engines out of anyone's control and that should reverse any unwarranted claims that the parts Arrow Racing is producing are the reasons engines are failing. With that said they owe Arrow and Dick Winkles an apology and the reversal of any charges incurred by owners having to fix engines on their own dime, but what the hell do I know...

Mark, this is exactly correct.

[VENOM V]

Guys,

Quick question on R28. I had R28/R29 service a couple of weeks ago on my 2013. When does the dealer / factory get back to the owners with the result of the engine test?

[swexlin]

Guys,

Quick question on R28. I had R28/R29 service a couple of weeks ago on my 2013. When does the dealer / factory get back to the owners with the result of the engine test?

Took 3 business days for mine. Had it done on a Friday, and results (pass) were emailed to my dealer the following Wednesday.

[dadeuce]

If I remember correctly, mine took less than 2 weeks. It's was relatively quick.

[Coloviper]

Nice to see FCA step up a little here. It lessens the risk for a few years anyway on a new or used R28 or qualified extended warranty car. The long run is still a concern for those cars. I would suspect it is limited to just SRT Viper titled cars and not Dodge Viper cars? was it's own company before.

The arrow in/out issue is still a concern on a used Viper purchase so would be great to see that have a true resolution beyond the current stance at the moment.

It is a start, in the end the chicken's always come home to roost though! Dodge should have offered a $10,000 one time, lifetime extended warranty option. If I had a GEN V, that is something I would have definitely purchased or would purchase if I could get into one yet.

[Vpr898]

So some 2013-2014 Vipers did not have the R28 recall? Am I understanding that correctly?

[V10]

Bottom line is that R28 is the only recall that is important. Applied to many 2013s and 2014s. Before production ended those “in the know” would never consider buying a 2013 or 2014 car because of above. In fact those were the hardest cars to move.
It’s interesting that as time passed this important point seems to have faded.
If I were buying a used Viper I would buy only 2015-2017. I’m not alone.

[Dman]

George's post is good run down of the recalls.

As for all the speculation on how likely one model or year is to blow, it's total guessing and hope. We have no idea whatsoever.

Cars brand new, 15-16, have blown in the driveway. Cars with over 10,000 miles have blown. Replacement 2016 motors have blown. We know at least 7 ACRs have blown, which considering the low mileage on these in general, is a lot IMO.

FCA had offered no info, ad to why these are blowing, why they increased selected warranties, or if 17s are any better than the 13-16 issues.

No one here likes to post that we don't know, everyone wants an opinion, but fact is, we know nothing other than every year to date is blowing at a rate that indicates there's a problem, still. Unless you take the position that every motor blown since 2015 is 100% owner error, which I don't buy.

Not much has changed since my post above ... well actually, nothing has changed. If you think you’re getting a ‘safer’ car by buying a 15-17, then whatever helps you sleep, but we’ve seen every year, brand new almost no miles, well worn & broken in, etc etc., even replacement motors go ba-bye. Before the block washing station was added, after it was added, yada yada. It’s just something you accept when buying gen5.

As for R28, what may be confusing is, the cars went thru the R28, which is just an oil sample analysis like Blackstone, if the car failed the R28 then you got a new engine, if it passed then you got a coke & a smile & a false sense of hope. Most of us were hoping our engines would fail, to get replacement engines we’d hope would be clean. Buuuut, then we saw replacements chunking, so ...

Like many of us, if you love the viper, you’ll accept it and get one, or like us crazier people, multiple. If not, then not. Frustrating thing was that FCA started voiding warranties on blown motors for stupid reasons, to the point the joke was if you ceramic coated your car, that mod would void the drivetrain warranty, lol. So, IMHO, with a gen5, either stay literally 100% stock til the drivetrain warranty runs out, or mod the snot out of and get the crank mod/cross drilled oiling mod to get peace of mind on longevity.

[ForTehNguyen]

15-17 car can fail just as easily if someone didnt check the oil properly. Im taking no chances whenever the day comes I have to sell the car, im doing an oil analysis every oil change to have a line of documentation for the next buyer since this is going go be a giant stickler for a future owner's car search. That is the only proof I can truly provide that I didnt neglect the engine.

[IHOP]

I bought a 2014 new and currently own a 2013. Both were subject to R28/R29 recalls and passed then both were given the 10y/100,000 mile powertrain warranty. I put 25,000 miles on the 14 and currently have 14,000 miles on the 13, both have been solid powertrain wise but I check my oil often and change it regularly. I don't care what year the car is if you don't check your oil you deserve what you get if it blows up IMO!

[SRT BILL]

I bought a 2014 new and currently own a 2013. Both were subject to R28/R29 recalls and passed then both were given the 10y/100,000 mile powertrain warranty. I put 25,000 miles on the 14 and currently have 14,000 miles on the 13, both have been solid powertrain wise but I check my oil often and change it regularly. I don't care what year the car is if you don't check your oil you deserve what you get if it blows up IMO!

Totally agree with this. My 13 passed R28 runs strong and is stock and the warrantee is good to 8-2024.

[AZTVR]

So some 2013-2014 Vipers did not have the R28 recall? Am I understanding that correctly?
Yes, you understand correctly. ( I have seen at least one of each year that do not have r28 listed as an applicable recall on the mopar recalls site.)

[BSLSK]

I would assume that resale value shouldn't be affected if the motors were being replaced under warranty. But there is always the possibility of the dealer screwing up the replacement... Any idea how many engines have been replaced so far?

[texasram]

So some 2013-2014 Vipers did not have the R28 recall? Am I understanding that correctly?

My 13' is R29 only

[IHOP]

I would assume that resale value shouldn't be affected if the motors were being replaced under warranty. But there is always the possibility of the dealer screwing up the replacement... Any idea how many engines have been replaced so far?

This has affected resale values even though the engines are replaced under warranty. It's pretty much buyer beware as most owners don't keep super detailed oil change records that include things like oil analysis. But there are several warning signs IMO besides getting all the service and warranty work records for the car like speaking to the viper technician that cared for the car and having a PPI done by a reputable Viper Tech is a must in almost every case. If the owner doesn't know how the car should be cared for and/or doesn't have a Viper Tech who knows and cares for the car then I would pass.

[swexlin]

I have every receipt of every service done by my Viper tech, including oil changes R28 etc, since I purchased the car in October 2014. I can't attest how the first owner treated it the first 7200 miles he owned it, but in the 6300 miles since, its well documented!

[texasram]

I have every receipt of every service done by my Viper tech, including oil changes R28 etc, since I purchased the car in October 2014. I can't attest how the first owner treated it the first 7200 miles he owned it, but in the 6300 miles since, its well documented!

You've had a couple diff's replaced to right?

[swexlin]

You've had a couple diff's replaced to right?

Just the original one. But I have that documented as well!

[Matt Dillon]

My 13' is R29 only

My 13' has had ALL the recalls done on it but I just noticed it doesn't have the R28 listed, I thought this one is the Most important one to have done. I called SRT & they told me mine didn't need the R28 done & I tried telling her that's the MOST important one of ALL! Apparently she didn't understand cause she just kept saying that it wasn't a Recall on my car & I tried telling her it was a Recall on ALL 13' & 14' models. I'm going to call FCA tomorrow & try to find out what the deal is cause it only has 3k miles on it.

[Sub Driver]

The recall did not apply to all 13 and 14 models.

[AZTVR]

My 13' has had ALL the recalls done on it but I just noticed it doesn't have the R28 listed, I thought this one is the Most important one to have done. I called SRT & they told me mine didn't need the R28 done & I tried telling her that's the MOST important one of ALL! Apparently she didn't understand cause she just kept saying that it wasn't a Recall on my car & I tried telling her it was a Recall on ALL 13' & 14' models. I'm going to call FCA tomorrow & try to find out what the deal is cause it only has 3k miles on it. FCA personnel determined the VIN numbers of the cars that they decided were affected by what they determined was the cause of the engine failures occuring during that time frame. Like many recalls, r28 only applies to a specific set of VINs and does not encompass all cars built. Apparently your car was not affected by whatever they decided was the issue related to r28. Please let us know if you get in contact with the engineers or managers who explain to you exactly how the affected range of VINs was determined.

[swexlin]

Well, I had R28 and 29 done, got the letter from FCA extending my warranty, and the email copy of the R28 "pass" which was sent to my dealer. Hard copies of those in my file at home - but - R28 still shows as "open" in their system. Even though my warranty shows "extended" in their system! Go figure....so if you think you need R28, couldn't hurt to press the issue, as obviously, there is some confusion in the FCA records.